Robert Levine, June 1, 2017

Robert Levine, June 1, 2017

Robert Levine (three generations in Allentown) talks about how S. Levine & Sons business was started by his grandfather, a peddler in scrap metal originally and later in textile scrap. Robert’s father and his father’s three brothers entered the business in the mid 1940s and grew it substantially. During its heyday, the Levine business included textile waste, fabric wholesaling, fabric retailing, and purveyor of crafts and notions to fabric and retail stores. By the 1980s, the older generation had either passed away or retired and the Levine business was now run by the next generation, Robert and his cousin Ira. By 1996, between industry decline due to globalization and free-trade and conflicting ideas of how to run the business, the cousins sold off part of the business and closed the other parts of the business.

Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives

Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives

2017-06-01

Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.

video

LVTNT-28

Susan Clemens-Bruder

Robert Levine

00:51:59

5.4 June 1, 2017 Robert Levine, June 1, 2017 LVTNT-28 52:00 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Robert Levine Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 LevineRobert_20170601 1.0:|23(4)|42(14)|67(7)|86(9)|109(11)|136(8)|161(13)|192(2)|219(6)|238(15)|263(4)|286(15)|313(11)|340(4)|365(8)|390(5)|409(4)|436(3)|455(15)|474(16)|495(16)|516(2)|539(9)|560(10)|587(7)|616(11)|643(5)|662(5)|679(12)|700(16)|725(15)|750(12)|771(11)|796(9)|821(6)|846(12)|873(12)|898(13)|929(14)|958(7)|991(13)|1020(7)|1043(14)|1068(12)|1087(13)|1112(10)|1137(2)|1158(8)|1185(9)|1220(9)|1241(13)|1270(6) 0 https://youtu.be/H-BXrwfr-xg YouTube video 0 Introduction—Robert Levine's Education SC: Today is June 1, 2017, interview with Robert Levine, and am I pronouncing that correctly? So I'd like to go first to have you put yourself into place, and say your full name, where you were born, when you were born, and also some things about where you’ve lived in your life, you know, if you’ve lived at different places.&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Full name is Robert Kerry Levine. Born and raised in Allentown. Attended the Jewish day school in Allentown. I believe one of the first graduating classes from there. From there, I guess I went to Raub Junior High School, went to Allen High School for a year. Then my parents sent me off to Perkiomen Prep which I did three years there. And then down to Clemson University in Clemson, South Carolina, to get my degree-- four year degree. 0 69 Levine's Father &amp ; the Textile Waste Business SC: And also, can you talk a little bit more about any memories you have as a child growing up and what got you into the business? &#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Memories were that my father always worked, and I think from the time I could walk, I probably went to the - as we called it the shop or the warehouse - to help, to get in somebody's way when we were younger. And eventually, every summer, every vacation I did work for my father.&#13 ; &#13 ; SC: And was he in exactly the same businesses as what you then were in?&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Well, they actually had an unusual business, or unique business, that their father who was born in and married in Russia came over here and had six children. The oldest being Verna, then four brothers, and then the youngest being Rose, who was actually still alive today ; she's 97. Their father went around town with a cart - I guess in that time that’s what they had - to collect used metal. 0 389 Family History SC: [C]an you talk a little bit more about your parents’ background, a little bit more context of your mother's family and father’s family.&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: And I think a unique part about my father’s and mother's family is my father, like I said, had three other sibling boys who were all in the business. Each one of them had a different part of the business: one was in the office, two were in the textile waste, one was in the fabric part of it. Two of the brothers, the oldest two married a set of sisters. My father and his brother, who was just as old, a little older than him, married a different set of sisters. So again, it’s sort of unique that growing up we were very very close. My father's background, and I think the brother’s background, they just worked hard and learned from doing whatever they did because they had no college education. High school education was the most they had.&#13 ; &#13 ; SC: That was good though.&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: I think that you know from work, hard work, working hard. Just being there and doing it. 0 755 Schmattas—Yiddish for "Rag Business" SC: And it’s interesting that your family went from metal, metal scraps to fabric scraps. Would that all be considered schmatta?&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Schmattas? &#13 ; &#13 ; SC: Yeah. I have a terrible Trenton accent, I’m sorry.&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: I don’t know if the metals would be called schmattas, but the rags are schmattas.&#13 ; &#13 ; SC: Yes, okay, I didn’t know. So it would've been scraps but it's still some of the same skills, maybe? Or…&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: It’s picking up stuff that nobody can use or wants.&#13 ; &#13 ; SC: You can see value. 0 800 Competition Within the Textile Waste Businesses SC: So do you, do you think that the Jewish community was cohesive when you were young and when your parents were young?&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: I think they were, yes. I mean in the textile waste part there were three families involved in the business. Each one of them worked very hard to get their accounts, and it was almost like cut-throat. That if one would pay a nickel a pound, the other one would come in and say seven cents a pound. And really the only one that was benefiting from it was the customer that they were buying it from. And that really went on for as long as I can remember. Once the children got involved, my generation, I know of a family is probably little younger than I am, he would call me and say ‘listen why don’t one week you guys pick the scrap up, the next week we pick the scraps, and let’s buy it cheap.’ Our fathers didn’t, both sides of the fathers didn’t want to have anything to do with it. 0 883 Relationship to Non-Jewish Communities SC: And how about the relationship between the Jewish community and the non-Jewish community. A lot of people we actually interviewed a couple generations, and you would hear, you’re young and…&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: It doesn't matter who you are, or what you believe in. I wouldn’t say that about my father or my father-in-law, you know, that’s something different. I think my father-in-law has changed, that he realizes that this is what it is. 0 931 Personal Connections to the Jewish Community GE: [D]o you want to share with us any memories you have of the local Jewish community growing up? Or, what were the prominent institutions? Was your family active in any thing?&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Well, like I said, I went to a Jewish Day School, and I was in one of the first graduating classes. My parents belonged to Congregation Sons of Israel which is the Orthodox synagogue in the town. I was bar mitzvahed at 6th Street which was the old Congregation Sons of Israel. By the time I got married we still belonged to Congregation Sons of Israel. The sad part is they told me my dues were based on who my father was. I said ‘my father doesn't pay my dues.’ And, again, I don’t know if this should be talked about, but. And I said ‘no, I pay my own dues. It's my value.’ And growing up with, and then having some young kids, we weren't sending them to a Jewish day school. So we needed somewhere for them to go to Hebrew school. And at that point, we joined Temple Beth El. 0 1041 History of the Family Businesses GE: [T]ell us a little bit about the businesses. How your . . . .sounds like your grandfather, but especially your father and his brothers really, what was, how did it start? How did it grow? It sounds like it eventually became these four businesses they operated. Which parts of the business, what happened for the next generation?&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: My grandfather had the pushcart and for some reason, he got some fabrics. And at that point, I don't know how much fabric it was but I guess my father and his brothers thought that this would be a good thing, rather than the fruit stand and the fresh fish. So they all worked together on Second Street. Mostly with the textile waste part, and then they grew into full rolls of fabric. Either they were extra from the manufacturers that they weren’t using to make their garments, or from the contractors there was often extra. I think at one point, the manufacturers who had contractors making their fabric would send in thousands of yards, maybe they only needed 500 yards. And it would get lost in the shuffle. And at that point, my father’s business, they bought the fabric. So they started with the textile waste part and the full rolls of fabric, excess fabric, over cuts, or whatever you want to call it. 0 1253 1986: Consolidating the Businesses RL: And then at one point, and it may have been 1986, we put all the businesses in one building. My father and his brother Ben ran the textile waste part of it. His brother Irving ran the fabric part of it. All the fabric whether it was for the retail stores or for the manufacturers. And his oldest brother, Morris, was more the financial guy, but also in the ‘craft and notions’ part of the business. Each one of the brothers had one son. Morris’ son, who was an excellent carpenter, came into the business, and none of us worked under our fathers. We all worked under uncles. That’s what, that’s what they wanted.&#13 ; &#13 ; Arthur was involved in the wiper part of the business in the textile waste part. My cousin Jeffrey, who was Irving’s son, I have to rephrase, he was the only one who worked under his father. He didn't really want to work, he didn’t really like the work. He did not last long. He moved out to California or Arizona somewhere. Ira worked under Irving, which is the second oldest brother in the textile part of it, and I worked under Morris, who was in the financial part and the ‘crafts and notions’ part. And everything was great, and then you bring everybody... and everybody did their own little thing. 0 1452 1996: Closing the Family Business GE: [H]ow were the four businesses doing? Were they all still…&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Successful.&#13 ; &#13 ; GE: Okay.&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: And then we also had all of the retail stores, which my mother's brother ran all the retail stores. At one point his office was in one store, and then he moved into the warehouse with us. So that's how the business was running. And then at one point, we decided that we didn’t want it, it wasn’t right for us, the times weren’t right, and we literally closed everything down. We sold out of the retail stores, and just closed them. And we closed the wholesale operation. &#13 ; &#13 ; GE: And that was about when?&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: I want to say 1996.&#13 ; &#13 ; GE: Oh, so by 1996, the retail was closed and the wholesale was closed?&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Everything was closed. 0 1631 Life After the Business—Husband &amp ; Wife Businesses GE: [W]ant to share with us a little bit what you have done since?&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Since then, we have the building, which we rent out. It’s about a 130,000 square-foot warehouse. I happen to own 60% of it because I had 20%, I got my father's 20%, and I got my one cousin’s, who lives in Florida.I bought his 20%. Ira in a sense had 20%, and his parents may have still been living, they had 20%. They both passed. They gave 10% of their share to their daughter, who had passed to her kids, and they gave 10% to Ira. So in a sense, Ira’s sister’s children, the three of them own 10%, Ira owns 30% of the building, and I own 60%.&#13 ; &#13 ; And, I guess I got married in ‘75, so we started making clothing, my wife and I. We had our own contracting facility that we actually made our own. First we had other people making it, then we started making it ourselves, and then we made garments for other people. Most of it was garment dyed. We had someone making sweaters for us, and everything would get dyed together. And we were selling to J Jill, Black-and-White, and a lot of boutique-type stores. 0 2016 Memories of the Business GE: Do you have any fond memories about the business that you want to share with us, any kind of anecdotes working, either working with your dad and uncles, or the time it was the cousins. Any particular stories that you want to share?&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Well, it was unique that my father and his brothers could scream . . . if they had a huge argument, two seconds later, it was forgotten. When you get cousins involved and uncles involved, it doesn't happen like that. So I think that was, you know, you sort of get used to that. Memories I had was that every time I had a vacation, if it was from high school, if it was from college, I’d come and work in the business. And I tried to learn every part of the business, and I expected if I wanted, I would sweep floors. If I wanted my employees to sweep floors, they can’t say well you never did it. 0 2110 Profits and Products GE: [I]t may be interesting to hear of total sales and perhaps separately total profits. What percent was the retail, was the waste, was the fabric? Any, any…&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: That’s a business question, I could tell.&#13 ; &#13 ; GE: Yeah, but any feel for that? Which one was particularly small, large? In terms of sales and in terms of profits.&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: I don’t know what percentages, but I would think the fabric to the manufacturers was probably the largest percentage. Under that was the sales to retail stores, and then our stores, our retail stores, and the textile waste. And probably the reason for that is because when you're selling a tractor trailer load of fabric, the dollar amount was a lot more than when we are selling a tractor trailer load of scrap. 0 2309 Impact of the Textile and Needle-Trade Industries on the Lehigh Valley GE: Right, what impact do you think it's had on the Lehigh Valley on the general community and what impact do you think it had on the Jewish community? If anything.&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: I don’t know, well I think...I don’t know if it’s really had an impact except maybe for prosperity or you know that's what I was doing. Now even when we closed our business, I was devastated so what am I going to give my kids, I have nothing to give my kids. And again that’s probably a Jewish thing. Maybe not, but what do I give my kids, I have nothing to give them. So I was very upset about that part. And I remember talking to the cantor and he said, no-- it was actually the rabbi, and he said, ‘don’t worry about it ; they’ll find their own.’ 0 2359 Rosey's Creations RL: I was a contractor making flags also for a company that now had moved to Florida, excuse me to South Carolina. And they would give me the rolls of fabric, which were flags, I would take them to a contractor, and they would cut the flag out and sew it. We also did tablecloths for department stores if it was for a certain cosmetic company. We did NASCAR flags, we did the US flag, all kinds of different things. &#13 ; &#13 ; GE: At that point was that part of the Levine business or was that was part of yours and your wife’s..&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: No, that was a part of my own.&#13 ; &#13 ; GE: Right, okay, your own business. What was that business called? &#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Well I kept it under Rosey’s Creations, which was my, our fabric part of the business. 0 2410 My Boy's Baking RL: Just, you didn’t ask about My Boy’s Baking. My wife and I have three children, grown, and actually three grandchildren, which is better than having the children, but don’t record that. Your thoughts also?&#13 ; &#13 ; GE: No, I don’t have them yet.&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Oh, it’s the best,&#13 ; &#13 ; GE: I look forward to it.&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: But, when my daughter was young, she used to say, ‘where are my boys?’ So we really didn’t want to call it biscotti, we didn’t want to give it . . . because what do we do if we start making cookies? So that's how we got the name My Boy’s Baking from. Actually, my daughter . . . because people would go to her and say aren’t you upset that it’s called “My Boy’s..” and she would say no because that’s what I called them. 0 2464 Reflecting on Jewish and Italian Involvement in the Textile and Needle-Trade Industries GE: Why do you think the Jewish community was dominant in that industry?&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Probably because once someone was doing it and another Jewish person said, ‘oh, maybe I should do it.’ No, I really don’t know because there are a lot of Italians in it too. &#13 ; &#13 ; GE: Right.&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: But Italians and the Jewish people are sort of similar.&#13 ; &#13 ; GE: Right, right.&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: And they all got, we all got along.&#13 ; &#13 ; GE: Right, right, any thoughts as to why those two groups?&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Get along?&#13 ; &#13 ; GE: Or were in that industry? What about that industry made it attractive?&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: I really don’t know. I mean just maybe for the enjoyment of it. It could be enjoyment. 0 2588 Levine's Children and Grandchildren RL: My oldest son, Joshua, is married and has two sons. He works for Stephen Starr Restaurants. They have about 47 restaurants, each one of them . . . mainly out of Philadelphia. Each one pretty much has a different theme. They've opened in Florida, they’ve opened in Washington DC, and they’ve opened in New York. Actually Stephen Starr just won the James Beard Award, which is like a nationwide or worldwide top honor. One of his restaurants in New York, Le Coucou, a French restaurant, just also won the James Beard for the best restaurant. Le Coucou was voted the best restaurant in New York. My son Joshua runs all forty-seven restaurants ; from opening them, helping to open, to buying the supplies for the restaurants. And actually he started out, our family was very ice hockey oriented, so he went to school in Colorado, University of Colorado, and he was a ref for the semi-pros out on the West Coast. 0 2884 South Clemson Versus Philadelphia Textile SC: Is there a reason why you went down South to Clemson, only because there were…&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Philadelphia Textile was the number one school. I did not get in on my own. I was probably not a very good student, and my father said, ‘we must know somebody.’ And I said, ‘Dad, I don’t want to do that.’ Clemson was the second best for textiles, so that’s why I went down to Clemson, it was farther away from Allentown.&#13 ; &#13 ; SC: And were there any, when you were there, was that still an emerging textile area?&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Clemson?&#13 ; &#13 ; SC: Out in the…&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Clemson area? Yes.&#13 ; &#13 ; SC: That’s what I was wondering, method to madness.&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: I mean talk about 1972, yeah it was still big. 0 2994 Levine's Values SC: So what do you value most in life?&#13 ; &#13 ; RL: My family. And you know, kids, my wife. Well let’s do my grandchildren, my kids, and my wife...don’t quote me. Family is very important to us. Even today, my daughter must call my wife 10, 15, 20 times a day. And it’s just to talk. My wife lost her sister from cancer probably 20 years ago, so it's, and this is good for her to have my daughter very close. Every morning, I text her and say good morning. So family is very important and that’s why both my boys moved back from Florida and California because you know it’s family, it's all about family. 0 3082 Levine's Inspiration SC: And what has made you feel the most creative in your life? &#13 ; &#13 ; RL: My wife. I mean you know it’s, how creative am I? I don't really know, you know, it's my wife who is really doing the creative part. And I’ve just followed that in the financial part and worked it. Is that a good answer?&#13 ; &#13 ; SC: Yeah, it's a good meeting… &#13 ; &#13 ; RL: Really?&#13 ; &#13 ; SC: It’s a good match. 0 MovingImage Robert Levine (three generations in Allentown) talks about how S. Levine &amp ; Sons business was started by his grandfather, a peddler in scrap metal originally and later in textile scrap. Robert’s father and his father’s three brothers entered the business in the mid 1940s and grew it substantially. During its heyday, the Levine business included textile waste, fabric wholesaling, fabric retailing, and purveyor of crafts and notions to fabric and retail stores. By the 1980s, the older generation had either passed away or retired and the Levine business was now run by the next generation, Robert and his cousin Ira. By 1996, between industry decline due to globalization and free-trade and conflicting ideas of how to run the business, the cousins sold off part of the business and closed the other parts of the business. Interview with Robert Levine, June 1, 2017 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is June 1, 2017, interview with Robert Levine, and am I pronouncing that correctly? So I'd like to go first to have you put yourself into place, and say your full name, where you were born, when you were born, and also some things about where you've lived in your life, you know, if you've lived at different places. ROBERT LEVINE: Full name is Robert Kerry Levine. Born and raised in Allentown. Attended the Jewish day school in Allentown. I believe one of the first graduating classes from there. From there, I guess I went to Raub Junior High School, went to Allen High School for a year. Then my parents sent me off to Perkiomen Prep which I did three years there. And then down to Clemson University in Clemson, South Carolina, to get my degree-- four year degree. SC: And also, can you talk a little bit more about any memories you have as a child growing up and what got you into the business? RL: Memories were that my father always worked, and I think from the time I could walk, I probably went to the - as we called it the shop or the warehouse - to help, to get in somebody's way when we were younger. And eventually, every summer, every vacation I did work for my father. SC: And was he in exactly the same businesses as what you then were in? RL: Well, they actually had an unusual business, or unique business, that their father who was born in and married in Russia came over here and had six children. The oldest being Verna, then four brothers, and then the youngest being Rose, who was actually still alive today ; she's 97. Their father went around town with a cart - I guess in that time that's what they had - to collect used metal. The brothers, I believe, were in the fruit business, and they also grew into [selling] fresh fish. Something like they went to the Army, came back, and I think they still. . . I don't know if it was before the Army or after the Army, they still had that business. And then their father somehow started collecting pieces of fabric. So from there they got into the fabric business. They had a warehouse, the first one was actually on Second Street, near Second and Tilghman. And the story I've been told is that they put their father in the corner, let him play with some fabrics and sort them and from that they got involved in the textile waste part of the business. From the textile waste part of the business, they had from some of the manufacturers . . . . Textile waste, for those that don't know, it's when you make out a pattern, the part you scrap that's what they collected. From there they got rolls of fabric that were extra or the manufacturer's contractor sold it. They grew that into selling rolls of fabric to different retail stores, I believe, and to manufacturers who needed the fabric. From there they grew into the textile waste part and the full rolls of fabric. From there they grew into retail stores. With the retail stores, at one point we probably had over 20 retail stores. Some being, one being in the Hess department store downtown. Some being in Fox Food Basket, which was a grocery chain at that time, and freestanding ones. And then you had warehouses throughout the metro, throughout the Allentown area. That one was for the textile waste, one was for the fabrics, from which they sold to the manufacturers at that point. They also got involved with converting your own fabric, meaning when velour was big, they would go to a firm called Fair-Tex, which is a local firm. They would make the fabric for them, and then my father and his brothers, me and my cousins would sell it. In another warehouse, they had fabrics that were sold to retail stores, and also crafts and notions that were sold to retail stores. So in essence it was really four different parts of the business. One being the textile waste, one selling the full rolls of fabric to manufacturers-- for some of them the fabric was newly made, some was overrun, some was excess fabric. Another part [of the business] was the crafts and notions in fabric and retail stores, then the retail stores and the fabric. SC: May I just ask where the different fabric stores were. I remember Levine's in between Ewing and Princeton when I was a kid. Was that your family? RL: Ewing, Princeton, New Jersey? We actually had one in Woodbury, New Jersey and one in Williamstown, New Jersey, so I don't know if that's where you're talking about? SC: No, but I know that I've been to Levine's. RL: Their first one was actually on Ridge Avenue. Actually, no, the first one was on Tilghman Street, in a little, now I think it's a house or something, they converted it to. Then they went to Ridge Avenue. From there they went to Seventh Street. We had them in Colmar, Pennsylvania and probably could remember some of the others. SC: Landsdale, maybe? RL: Well Landsdale and Colmar are the same thing. SC: Yes, yes. So as far as your background, can you talk a little bit more about your parents' background, a little bit more context of your mother's family and father's family. RL: And I think a unique part about my father's and mother's family is my father, like I said, had three other sibling boys who were all in the business. Each one of them had a different part of the business: one was in the office, two were in the textile waste, one was in the fabric part of it. Two of the brothers, the oldest two married a set of sisters. My father and his brother, who was just as old, a little older than him, married a different set of sisters. So again, it's sort of unique that growing up we were very very close. My father's background, and I think the brother's background, they just worked hard and learned from doing whatever they did because they had no college education. High school education was the most they had. SC: That was good though. RL: I think that you know from work, hard work, working hard. Just being there and doing it. SC: Where . . . was everyone from this area, did they all finally settle in this area? Once they . . . before they were married? RL: The four brothers were, yes. SC: And the women? RL: I know about my mother and her sister. They're from here. I'm pretty sure the other two sisters were also from Fountain Hill, Bethlehem, somewhere in this area. Because my father's oldest brother, Morris, I believe he worked at a factory in Northampton. I don't remember the name of it. I don't know if you guys interviewed-- SC: ...different people, we did. RL: Not Kivert, who's-- GAIL EISENBERG: That's who we did. RL: I think that's where he may have ended up. That's...I think so, I'm not 100% sure, though. SC: So do you know anything about the rest of your family, where they came from, did they all come originally from Russia? Or-- RL: My...and my grandfather Sam, whom the company is named after: S. Levine and Sons, with the Sons being his sons. He was from Russia ; his wife was from Russia or my grandma was from Russia. They were married there and then they came here to the states. My mother's side of the family, I really don't know. And the only reason that I know my father's side is because after I spoke to Gail, I figured, I better find out where my father's family is from. So I made a phone call to my father's only living sibling, Rose, who is 97. And we FaceTimed, and she looks exactly like I saw her and remember her. SC: Do you know anything more about, like the maiden names of your family going back-- of the women? RL: Baringoldz is my mother's maiden name. And actually, B-A-R-I-N-G-O-L-D-Z. Actually, she, her brother, there were three sisters and a boy in that family. One of them was actually a Fock, who married a Fock. And then my aunt and my mother married my father and his brother. And Leon Baringoldz, he actually, had a fabric store of his own on Seventh Street. Then he closed that and came to run all of our fabric stores. He was from Allentown. I don't know my grandma's maiden name. SC: Cause sometimes people coming are looking for family members, or distant family members, so it's nice if they can connect with the other people. RL: Yeah, that's what I know. SC: And, so also was the entire family Jewish? RL: Yes. SC: And then other ones, we haven't done this for a little while-- RL: That's ok. GE: Quick question, when were you born? RL: 1950. GE: And then, what brought your grandfather to Allentown? How did he come to Allentown? RL: I have no idea. You know, I could ask my, if I could call you back, I could ask my aunt who's-- GE: Right, right, I'm just curious, it's not public. RL: I know, I don't know, were there a bunch of families that came, fabric families that came to Allentown? SC: Yeah, going through often, through Brooklyn. GE: Someone either brought them or they started out in Brooklyn. RL: So just a note of, personally, my father was in what they called new rags. It was never used, it was new fabrics or new scraps. Whereas my father-in-law was in used clothing in Scranton. My wife and I met at the textile, a rag convention, a wiper convention in Paradise Island. So that's how, that's what brought us together. SC: And the connections, too. RL: Well they sort of knew each other but they really didn't, and they may have said hello or whatever. But then after my wife and I got engaged, all the other families wanted to bring their kids in too, and said 'hey, maybe I can get my kid involved in the textile business.' SC: And it's interesting that your family went from metal, metal scraps to fabric scraps. Would that all be considered schmatta? RL: Schmattas? SC: Yeah. I have a terrible Trenton accent, I'm sorry. RL: I don't know if the metals would be called schmattas, but the rags are schmattas. SC: Yes, okay, I didn't know. So it would've been scraps but it's still some of the same skills, maybe? Or-- RL: It's picking up stuff that nobody can use or wants. SC: You can see value. RL: Well, everything had a value. Someone's scrap was someone else's value. SC: So do you, do you think that the Jewish community was cohesive when you were young and when your parents were young? RL: I think they were, yes. I mean in the textile waste part there were three families involved in the business. Each one of them worked very hard to get their accounts, and it was almost like cut-throat. That if one would pay a nickel a pound, the other one would come in and say seven cents a pound. And really the only one that was benefiting from it was the customer that they were buying it from. And that really went on for as long as I can remember. Once the children got involved, my generation, I know of a family is probably little younger than I am, he would call me and say 'listen why don't one week you guys pick the scrap up, the next week we pick the scraps, and let's buy it cheap.' Our fathers didn't, both sides of the fathers didn't want to have anything to do with it. And I guess it was, you know, their ego. You know, they started from nothing, and it was their account, and it was the way that that generation worked because they worked hard at it, and sweated it, and worked seven days a week to get their accounts. SC: And how about the relationship between the Jewish community and the non-Jewish community. A lot of people we actually interviewed a couple generations, and you would hear, you're young and-- RL: It doesn't matter who you are, or what you believe in. I wouldn't say that about my father or my father-in-law, you know, that's something different. I think my father-in-law has changed, that he realizes that this is what it is. SC: So I think that's it unless you have any more questions about getting into the business? GE: Right, right, well I'll ask you something, but in regards to this, do you want to share with us any memories you have of the local Jewish community growing up? Or, what were the prominent institutions? Was your family active in any thing? RL: Well, like I said, I went to a Jewish Day School, and I was in one of the first graduating classes. My parents belonged to Congregation Sons of Israel which is the Orthodox synagogue in the town. I was bar mitzvahed at 6th Street which was the old Congregation Sons of Israel. By the time I got married we still belonged to Congregation Sons of Israel. The sad part is they told me my dues were based on who my father was. I said 'my father doesn't pay my dues.' And, again, I don't know if this should be talked about, but. And I said 'no, I pay my own dues. It's my value.' And growing up with, and then having some young kids, we weren't sending them to a Jewish day school. So we needed somewhere for them to go to Hebrew school. And at that point, we joined Temple Beth El. GE: And were you or was your family particularly active members? RL: I don't think that they were very active, no, in neither the Sons of Israel or anything else. GE: So I'm going to take this, and I'm going to ask you, you already did. . . you already went into it, but I think I'm going to ask you again, maybe take a step back-- RL: Did I speak too early? Did I say too much? GE: No, not at all, this is your story. But, for you to maybe take a step back and and just maybe a little more slowly, right, tell us a little bit about the businesses. How your . . . .sounds like your grandfather, but especially your father and his brothers really, what was, how did it start? How did it grow? It sounds like it eventually became these four businesses they operated. Which parts of the business, what happened for the next generation? RL: My grandfather had the pushcart and for some reason, he got some fabrics. And at that point, I don't know how much fabric it was but I guess my father and his brothers thought that this would be a good thing, rather than the fruit stand and the fresh fish. So they all worked together on Second Street. Mostly with the textile waste part, and then they grew into full rolls of fabric. Either they were extra from the manufacturers that they weren't using to make their garments, or from the contractors there was often extra. I think at one point, the manufacturers who had contractors making their fabric would send in thousands of yards, maybe they only needed 500 yards. And it would get lost in the shuffle. And at that point, my father's business, they bought the fabric. So they started with the textile waste part and the full rolls of fabric, excess fabric, over cuts, or whatever you want to call it. Then from Second Street, they moved to a couple other warehouses, one being in Catasauqua, which was just wipers. What wipers are, it's a bigger piece of fabric, bigger than your hand that someone can use for cleaning, the government used it, and for whatever else they could use it. The textile waste part was in Catasauqua, and there they sorted the different types of fabric out. They would try to teach the contractors and manufacturers when they were cutting something, their patterns, if they were cutting cotton, only put cotton in the burlap bag that our business would pick up. If there were cutting polyester, only polyester [in a bag]. If they were cutting only burgundy polyester, keep that in one bag. And it was more valuable at that point, whites were more valuable. The polyester scraps, a lot of that got sent to, I guess converters or someone who would break apart the fabric, and now they would already have a yarn dyed thread. So it was one less step that they would have to do. Some of it was made into the roofs of cars. A lot of it was made into paper and sometimes, I don't know if they still do it, sometimes you see recycled paper, or recycled fabrics, which was from the type of fabrics. Then from, that was in Allentown, they had a warehouse that would be just for the full rolls of fabric, and an upstairs was the 'craft and notions' and the downstairs for the full rolls of fabric but also the, what they called double fold fabric, which would go into the retail stores. And then at one point, and it may have been 1986, we put all the businesses in one building. My father and his brother Ben ran the textile waste part of it. His brother Irving ran the fabric part of it. All the fabric whether it was for the retail stores or for the manufacturers. And his oldest brother, Morris, was more the financial guy, but also in the 'craft and notions' part of the business. Each one of the brothers had one son. Morris' son, who was an excellent carpenter, came into the business, and none of us worked under our fathers. We all worked under uncles. That's what, that's what they wanted. Arthur was involved in the wiper part of the business in the textile waste part. My cousin Jeffrey, who was Irving's son, I have to rephrase, he was the only one who worked under his father. He didn't really want to work, he didn't really like the work. He did not last long. He moved out to California or Arizona somewhere. Ira worked under Irving, which is the second oldest brother in the textile part of it, and I worked under Morris, who was in the financial part and the 'crafts and notions' part. And everything was great, and then you bring everybody... and everybody did their own little thing. It was all dollars came into one pot. Then we moved out to, we built a building out towards Iron Run where everything was together: the textile waste part was one part, the fabrics to the manufacturers were in part of the building, the retail fabrics, crafts and notions were in the other part of the building, and we all had our offices there. GE: I'm sorry, that was 1990, or something? RL: I think around 1986. At that point, my uncle Morris, who was the oldest brother, had passed. He actually passed on Front Street where he was involved in the financial part, at the switchboard. And that's probably where he wanted to pass. His next brother, Irving, passed, so it was really only my father and his brother, who was a bit older than him, left in the business when we moved out to the Iron Run industrial park outside of that. By then, Arthur had already moved to Florida and so it was just Ira, who was Ben's son, and myself that were working in business, so it was really only four of us. Then at one point, my father took, went to Florida, and stayed there. Ben also, if I remember correctly, went to Florida -- much later than my father. And then it was Ira and I running the whole company. GE: And this was what time period? RL: I would say almost the late 1980s. GE: Okay, and how are the different, how were the four businesses doing? Were they all still-- RL: Successful. GE: Okay. RL: And then we also had all of the retail stores, which my mother's brother ran all the retail stores. At one point his office was in one store, and then he moved into the warehouse with us. So that's how the business was running. And then at one point, we decided that we didn't want it, it wasn't right for us, the times weren't right, and we literally closed everything down. We sold out of the retail stores, and just closed them. And we closed the wholesale operation. GE: And that was about when? RL: I want to say 1996. GE: Oh, so by 1996, the retail was closed and the wholesale was closed? RL: Everything was closed. GE: Okay, okay. RL: We still own the building so we rented that out. GE: Right, okay. RL: And at that point when we closed, it was only Ira and myself left. GE: Okay, um, so those last five years, I'm assuming part of it was that the businesses were slowing down? RL: Slowing down and-- GE: Different points of view about-- RL: The sons got married, and it was just problems, Jewish problems. GE: Right. RL: And you know, that and everybody wasn't getting along as we used to. Because growing up, my father and his brother Ben and my mother, who was called Tootie,and her sister Dorothy, we lived in a twin house. And we had a hole cut through it so we could walk back and forth. My parents had their baby, my sister first, so we got to move into, actually my aunt's house, and they moved into our house, and we just lived like that. And then at one point, they had to close up the wall because too many things were being thrown back and forth. GE: So the business ended in '96 but at that point it was still a thriving business. RL: It was slowing down. GE: Because I wanted to ask you, what do you see as being some of the factors that led to it slowing down? RL: I think the family members not getting along. I think the industry in itself. Because even with the retail stores, you could buy clothing cheaper than you can make it at that point. The textile waste part just lost what was made overseas so there was no textile waste. You know, how many manufacturers and contractors were left here. So I think it was just time that ; we just wanted to close it. GE: And so now do you want to share with us a little bit what you have done since? RL: Since then, we have the building, which we rent out. It's about a 130,000 square-foot warehouse. I happen to own 60% of it because I had 20%, I got my father's 20%, and I got my one cousin's, who lives in Florida.I bought his 20%. Ira in a sense had 20%, and his parents may have still been living, they had 20%. They both passed. They gave 10% of their share to their daughter, who had passed to her kids, and they gave 10% to Ira. So in a sense, Ira's sister's children, the three of them own 10%, Ira owns 30% of the building, and I own 60%. And, I guess I got married in '75, so we started making clothing, my wife and I. We had our own contracting facility that we actually made our own. First we had other people making it, then we started making it ourselves, and then we made garments for other people. Most of it was garment dyed. We had someone making sweaters for us, and everything would get dyed together. And we were selling to J Jill, Black-and-White, and a lot of boutique-type stores. And that business also was again, the retail stores of clothing was becoming less and less. So we closed that. And at the end of that business actually we were making pilates clothing, which was exercise clothing. And through the whole time, we had franchises of Benetton, and we had three stores, and we also had an ice cream franchise called Hillary's. And we closed all of those franchises, and I couldn't sit at home and just do nothing and that's why we started making the ladies clothing. Then once, at the end, like I said, we were making pilates clothing, and we advertised in a magazine, and we did a show out in California. My wife is a great baker besides designing clothes, and knitting and whatever. We were making biscotti, she was making some for our children because her mother used to send my kids biscotti and she said 'mom, I can make it taste better.' So we took some of our samples that my wife made of biscotti out to California to give it to the magazine and at that point they said, 'oh, could you do our corporate gifts?' And here we are, we didn't have a commercial kitchen, we didn't have a commercial oven, we had nothing commercial. And I said, 'sure, we'll do that for you.' It started out to be 100 tins, a hundred pounds, a pound in each tin. We bought a commercial mixer, put it in our house, and we had two commercial ovens that were electric put into our house. And in year one we started doing corporate gifts for this magazine. It turned out to be 1500 tins and 1500 pounds later. And someone who got that [biscotti] as a gift, that company, the next year, they wanted us to send it out to their customers. So we worked out of our house for two years doing corporate gifts. We worked Thanksgiving . . . from November to January. And we said, 'you know what, maybe we have something, let's open a retail store.' So we opened up a retail store. We got involved in the fancy food show in New York. So we have been doing that. It's been about 11 years now. We are selling at this point to some major grocery chains. We're in the second-largest coffee chain in the United States, mostly private label. And we were just on QVC for the third time. And a lot of small coffee shops, and again a lot of what we do is private label. As a matter of fact, someone who was in one of the coffee shops was a friend of someone who worked for us and they said, 'you know what I was in this coffee shop, looked like your biscotti, it tasted like your biscotti, but your name wasn't on it.' And, yes it was ours. So that's where we are right now, we have this bakery, one location and we're shipping all over for it. So it has been fun. It's retail and it's also wholesale. It's off of 512 in Bethlehem. GE: And so-- RL: Excuse me, we only do biscotti and cookies. We did rugelach, it just got too time-consuming. We do granola which we do some, we again, we do private label for some people. And we do brownies. My Boy's Baking. GE: So at this point you have this business, and you still have the warehouse. Is the warehouse pretty much rented out? RL: Once we moved out, it was rented to a return center for K-Mart. And the return center, what the return center is anything from a store that someone returns-- as you know you can go to any store and return whatever-- and it goes back to a return center. So you figure it was 130,000 square feet of merchandise that people . . . and they have six of these throughout the United States. K-Mart, when they closed, we were . . . it was empty for about six months, and we got another company in there who took the whole space, and it's a plastic company. They've been in there for ten years, and they signed another contract for five. GE: Good, good. Do you have any fond memories about the business that you want to share with us, any kind of anecdotes working, either working with your dad and uncles, or the time it was the cousins. Any particular stories that you want to share? RL: Well, it was unique that my father and his brothers could scream . . . if they had a huge argument, two seconds later, it was forgotten. When you get cousins involved and uncles involved, it doesn't happen like that. So I think that was, you know, you sort of get used to that. Memories I had was that every time I had a vacation, if it was from high school, if it was from college, I'd come and work in the business. And I tried to learn every part of the business, and I expected if I wanted, I would sweep floors. If I wanted my employees to sweep floors, they can't say well you never did it. I taught myself to drive a tractor-trailer. I love driving it, it's a good truck. So I was in, and I was in a retail store. So I was really in all aspects of the business. Not saying I knew everything about it, but G-d-forbid I could at least fudge my way through it. But I just loved to work there. It was just so much fun, and we had great employees which is very important. GE: About how many employees did you have? RL: At one point, 300 employees, throughout the retail stores and the warehouse. GE: Okay, wow, and about total sales, it may be interesting to hear of total sales and perhaps separately total profits. What percent was the retail, was the waste, was the fabric? Any, any-- RL: That's a business question, I could tell. GE: Yeah, but any feel for that? Which one was particularly small, large? In terms of sales and in terms of profits. RL: I don't know what percentages, but I would think the fabric to the manufacturers was probably the largest percentage. Under that was the sales to retail stores, and then our stores, our retail stores, and the textile waste. And probably the reason for that is because when you're selling a tractor trailer load of fabric, the dollar amount was a lot more than when we are selling a tractor trailer load of scrap. GE: Right, now just out of curiosity, so there you gave us a sense of the order in terms of sales, terms of the topline. What might it be in terms of profit, in terms of at least margin? RL: I would think it'd be almost the same thing. GE: Oh so, okay, okay, as to which ones would have had a higher margin compared to lower margin. RL: Because if you're picking up fabric from, and this is a business part of it, if you're buying someone's fabric that they have no more use for, you can buy it cheaper than if you have to go and make it yourself or buy from someone who's making it for you. So the profit was there. The retail stores sales were sort of like a set profit, and part of what brought down the wholesale to the crafts/notions and fabrics is the manufacturer's of a Coats and Clark, which was a thread company. They would start selling to customers directly and cutting out the wholesaler and at that point we could not compete. So that part of the business, a lot of the fabric people, if it were a Concord fabric or any other name fabrics that we were distributing, they would be out there selling in a sense our customers not because they knew they were our customers but because they themselves can get a higher dollar for that piece of fabric than they would if they sell it to us. Even though we may buy one- hundred pieces and someone is only buying ten pieces. GE: Right, right. They didn't protect their wholesalers. RL: Right. GE: So I think that's mostly...any other...what have you seen, so I don't know if you have anything to reflect on, you know, you've been here, it sounds like a minimum 40-50 years-- RL: 67 years. GE: Right, right, but I mean that you can even reflect on, right? And so very much change right in terms of what the textile industry had been locally compared to its little existence today. RL: The textile waste part because everybody was making stuff overseas so there was no more textile waste. GE: Right. RL: So yeah, it's diminished tremendously. GE: Right, what impact do you think it's had on the Lehigh Valley on the general community and what impact do you think it had on the Jewish community? If anything. RL: I don't know, well I think...I don't know if it's really had an impact except maybe for prosperity or you know that's what I was doing. Now even when we closed our business, I was devastated so what am I going to give my kids, I have nothing to give my kids. And again that's probably a Jewish thing. Maybe not, but what do I give my kids, I have nothing to give them. So I was very upset about that part. And I remember talking to the cantor and he said, no-- it was actually the rabbi, and he said, 'don't worry about it ; they'll find their own.' So I did forget, I was a contractor making flags also for a company that now had moved to Florida, excuse me to South Carolina. And they would give me the rolls of fabric, which were flags, I would take them to a contractor, and they would cut the flag out and sew it. We also did tablecloths for department stores if it was for a certain cosmetic company. We did NASCAR flags, we did the US flag, all kinds of different things. GE: At that point was that part of the Levine business or was that was part of yours and your wife's.. RL: No, that was a part of my own. GE: Right, okay, your own business. What was that business called? RL: Well I kept it under Rosey's Creations, which was my, our fabric part of the business. GE: Okay-- RL: Rosey's being R-O-S-E-Y Creations. Just, you didn't ask about My Boy's Baking. My wife and I have three children, grown, and actually three grandchildren, which is better than having the children, but don't record that. Your thoughts also? GE: No, I don't have them yet. RL: Oh, it's the best, GE: I look forward to it. RL: But, when my daughter was young, she used to say, 'where are my boys?' So we really didn't want to call it biscotti, we didn't want to give it . . . because what do we do if we start making cookies? So that's how we got the name My Boy's Baking from. Actually, my daughter . . . because people would go to her and say aren't you upset that it's called "My Boy's.." and she would say no because that's what I called them. GE: So while Sue is thinking about that, I also have a question. In the textile industry, it is dominated, or at least it was dominated by a lot of Jewish families, why do you think that's the case? Why do you think the Jewish community was dominant in that industry? RL: Probably because once someone was doing it and another Jewish person said, 'oh, maybe I should do it.' No, I really don't know because there are a lot of Italians in it too. GE: Right. RL: But Italians and the Jewish people are sort of similar. GE: Right, right. RL: And they all got, we all got along. GE: Right, right, any thoughts as to why those two groups? RL: Get along? GE: Or were in that industry? What about that industry made it attractive? RL: I really don't know. I mean just maybe for the enjoyment of it. It could be enjoyment. SC: Okay, I think I...my question is-- RL: In our retail stores or our host operation, we would sell remnants of fabrics, maybe a yard or two yards. I know in the retail stores, people would come in and say 'I want a quarter yard of this, I want a quarter yard of that,' which is very not cost-effective for us. But it was mainly to make the quilts and stuff. And we had all the supplies for it, you know, the thread, the fabric, and the stuffing or the foam that went in it. SC: So it was five or more and they were more profitable RL: Yeah because when you're cutting, it costs you just as much to cut 10 yards of fabric as it cost you to cut a quarter yard of fabric. And it's not just one quarter yard, they want 5 quarter yards. SC: Do you still feel comfortable talking about your daughters and where they worked-- RL: My children? SC: Yeah. RL: No, I'm very proud of them. SC: Good, go for it! I should have asked you that before. RL: My oldest son, Joshua, is married and has two sons. He works for Stephen Starr Restaurants. They have about 47 restaurants, each one of them . . . mainly out of Philadelphia. Each one pretty much has a different theme. They've opened in Florida, they've opened in Washington DC, and they've opened in New York. Actually Stephen Starr just won the James Beard Award, which is like a nationwide or worldwide top honor. One of his restaurants in New York, Le Coucou, a French restaurant, just also won the James Beard for the best restaurant. Le Coucou was voted the best restaurant in New York. My son Joshua runs all forty-seven restaurants ; from opening them, helping to open, to buying the supplies for the restaurants. And actually he started out, our family was very ice hockey oriented, so he went to school in Colorado, University of Colorado, and he was a ref for the semi-pros out on the West Coast. All my children went to Camp Canadensis, which is up in the Poconos. It's an overnight camp for two months or seven weeks. He, at one point, when he decided he didn't really like the life of an ice hockey ref, he went to work for the camp that they went to-- Camp Canadensis to help run the camp. He did that for a couple of years and the lady was supposed to possibly sell us the camp, and she reneged on it. So he interviewed at Stephen Starr Restaurants. And they said you don't have any restaurant experience, we really don't need you. Six months later, he saw the same ad in the paper, and went back to them and said, 'listen, obviously you haven't hired anybody.' And at that point, they hired him on the spot. He started out as assistant manager. He wanted to be a chef, but realized that you start out as assistant manager, manager, district manager, and now he runs all forty-seven restaurants. My son Andrew, who is two years younger than Josh, went to University of Colorado and when his brother left, he went to George Washington. George Washington in DC. And he became a teacher. He taught, first he taught at Radnor School District, actually he taught at a charter school in Philadelphia, fifth grade. Then he went to Radnor School, fifth grade teacher, then he got a job in a private school, Episcopal Academy, as a fifth grade teacher. He's married. They have a little girl who's 14 months old. My daughter-in-law, his wife, Debbie, got a promotion to her job and moved to Florida and after a year they realized that they wanted to be around family. And actually, Josh, for nine months moved out to California with his two children and wife and decided that when they all got sick one day and said, 'you know what, we have nobody here.' They came back to Philadelphia. Josh lives in Philadelphia, Andrew lives in Malvern. My daughter, Rachel, is an accountant. She is single and living in Philadelphia also. As a matter of fact, my son's Joshua's wife, Jill, works for an entertainment group who goes around and does bar mitzvahs and weddings and the dancers and the disc jockeys. And her brother, who happened to be Josh's counselor at camp, said, 'you know what, the Levines are having a bat mitzvah and your company's doing it, why don't you see if you can work it?' So she came to work my daughter's bat mitzvah, not being with my son or not, and a couple years later on the JDate said are you the Jill Rosen that... so we have videos of her, which she will not let us play of her performing at my daughter's bat mitzvah. And then we have the two grandchildren, Brody and Cooper. Brody just turned eight, and Cooper is six. He plays ice hockey and is travelling. As you can tell we have an ice hockey family. And then we have a granddaughter, Winnie Rose. GE: Wonderful. RL: Oh, Rachel did go to Pitt. SC: Oh, I remember the question. Is there a reason why you went down South to Clemson, only because there were-- RL: Philadelphia Textile was the number one school. I did not get in on my own. I was probably not a very good student, and my father said, 'we must know somebody.' And I said, 'Dad, I don't want to do that.' Clemson was the second best for textiles, so that's why I went down to Clemson, it was farther away from Allentown. SC: And were there any, when you were there, was that still an emerging textile area? RL: Clemson? SC: Out in the-- RL: Clemson area? Yes. SC: That's what I was wondering, method to madness. RL: I mean talk about 1972, yeah it was still big. SC: And then of course more and more textiles--[inaudible] RL: Down South around the country. SC: Wow, that's wonderful. I'm so glad that you talked about your children and grandchildren. GE: So now we just have a few final questions. SC: A few touchy feely questions. RL: Is that going to make me cry? GE: Depends on how you answer it. RL: You know why, because when I saw my Aunt Rose, it was the first time I saw her-- GE: Is she in Florida? RL: No, she's in New York, living with her son. I've seen her son on Facebook, and we've talked a little bit. And then when I figured I'd have to ask questions. So he called and I called him back, and he said, wait a minute, do you have an iPhone? We could FaceTime. And I'm telling you, she looks exactly the same. SC: That's so wonderful. RL: So it was, that was very emotional for me. SC: This is just a who you are type of question. So what do you value most in life? RL: My family. And you know, kids, my wife. Well let's do my grandchildren, my kids, and my wife...don't quote me. Family is very important to us. Even today, my daughter must call my wife 10, 15, 20 times a day. And it's just to talk. My wife lost her sister from cancer probably 20 years ago, so it's, and this is good for her to have my daughter very close. Every morning, I text her and say good morning. So family is very important and that's why both my boys moved back from Florida and California because you know it's family, it's all about family. And whereas we thought my daughter-in-law's, they weren't as, they weren't, I don't want to say weren't as close, one daughter-in-law was not. But we thought they'd resent it because we were so close to our kids. And, you know what, both my daughters-in-law call my wife now for questions or stuff. So it's, family is very very important. I remember when my oldest grandson Brody was sick in Philadelphia. If we had to go down there, I would close the bakery early to go down there and my wife would babysit one day a week, and I would leave to take her down, I would come back to work, and go back down. So family is very very important to us. SC: And what has made you feel the most creative in your life? RL: My wife. I mean you know it's, how creative am I? I don't really know, you know, it's my wife who is really doing the creative part. And I've just followed that in the financial part and worked it. Is that a good answer? SC: Yeah, it's a good meeting-- RL: Really? SC: It's a good match. RL: She's said she saved me, so. SC: Thank you so much. 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