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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
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Tama Fogelman
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-04.xml
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5.4 February 5, 2016 Tama Fogelman, February 5, 2016 LVTNT-04 9:48 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Tama Fogelman Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 FogelmanTama_20160205.mp4 1.0:|29(8)|52(16)|75(9)|98(2)|125(4)|150(3)|177(7)|202(14)|243(4)|266(10) 0 https://youtu.be/m1ztFsMJSl0 YouTube video 0 Introduction—Tama Fogelman SC: Today is the 5th of November- of February, I was going to say November. 
 ; 
 ; TF: Thank you.
 ; 
 ; SC: Thank you. I hear you. Fifth of February, 2016. And what is your full name? 
 ; 
 ; TF: Tama Kivert Fogelman. 
 ; 
 ; SC: And could you- What is your address? 
 ; 
 ; TF: 3057 Fairfield Drive, Allentown, P.A. 0 30 Tama's Religious Observances SC: [W]e want to start with just stories about how you joined the synagogue and your religious life? 
 ; 
 ; TF: Okay, well, I think I can do that. My husband and I joined the reform Temple originally. We were married at Bethel, which is- Oh what is that?
 ; 
 ; GE: Conservative. 
 ; 
 ; TF: Conservative, right. And then we had our daughter and she was about eight or nine years old when you start religious training. And we thought we would join K.I. because it was more how we lived and how we believed. And so that's what we did, and at that time, you went to the rabbi's house- home on a Friday. It was very, very small. Maybe it was still at 13th Street, the reformed, I don't remember. But then we had other children, we had two more- we had two boys and we had another daughter ; and they all chose different synagogues, because that's who they were friendly with. And we felt very comfortable joining others also, we were part of the whole community. That's how we felt. We were friendly with different people of different beliefs in Judaism, and we were very comfortable with that. 0 111 Tama's Joy as Wife and Mother SC: Well, what are some of your favorite family memories, as a wife and mother? 
 ; 
 ; TF: Oh my gosh. So many, I don't know. We always loved getting together for everybody's birthdays. You know, my sister and my parents and—we always had two parties for our children, one with just their friends and one with the family. And it was always fun and wonderful and it was wonderful. I was very happy being a wife and mother, that's how I- There was nothing else I wanted to do at that time. But as I was telling Gail, you know, every day was a new day. Your life is evolving all the time, even though you're in the same job. But it- it changes all the time. So- And my husband, we were on the same page about many things. 0 322 Tama's Children, Grandchildren, and Great-Grandchildren SC: With each one of them, what is something that's really memorable for each one of them? Or where they are right now, what are they doing? 
 ; 
 ; TF: Oh my gosh. Well, and you know, it would take forever, but—well the one son is in town now. He- He was in our business. Of course, it closed. Now he's started a business in Philadelphia called Intelligent Office, and it's like a- What do you call those offices? What's the word?
 ; 
 ; GE: Sharing? 
 ; 
 ; TF: Well yeah, that, but it has another name to it. You know, they offer all kinds of help in office work—phone, services, rooms. I mean, it's a beautiful office. It's a- It's a- What do you call it that he bought?
 ; 
 ; GE: Oh, a franchise?
 ; 
 ; TF: Yeah, a franchise. And he seems very well-suited for this kind of thing—to bring in customers all the time, and... He likes meeting people. Well, you met him. He likes talking to people and hearing, you know, what they're doing. So he's been at that a few years now. So that's good. 
 ; 
 ; SC: This is Mark?
 ; 
 ; TF: That’s Mark, yeah. And Steve is in New York now, and he’s- he's a writer, an actor, and that kind of thing. And our oldest daughter is a visiting nurse. She's still doing it at sixty-two years old, she still is doing that. She likes it. And then our youngest daughter works for Riderwood. I don't know if you ever heard of that whole franchise of retirement villages, of big villages, very nice. So she- She became a real estate agent and then she went into this job. So she helps people, she helps recruit people and helps them with their move to the- to the facility. So she likes it. She's very good. So- And you know, I have a lot of grandchildren, and great-grandchildren—I have seven great-grandchildren now. 0 460 What Gave You the Most Meaning as Wife and Mother? SC: One other thing though—what meant the most, what gave you the most meaning of being a wife and mother?
 ; 
 ; TF: That's a very good question. I wish I had given it more thought. I think just to see them all become good people and they were- they were kind people, they were good people. They weren't mean spirited that I could see. I mean, maybe they had their moments, I'm not saying that. But in general, it felt good to see how they developed and- and- and wanted to do something in the- in the world. I-
 ; 
 ; SC: Seems like you and Jules were good parents.
 ; 
 ; TF: Well, I don’t know.
 ; 
 ; SC: That’s wonderful, wow.
 ; 
 ; TF: Well, that's good. But I mean, there were so many things I wanted to tell you. My sister said I should write it down. I said, “Oh, don't worry. I'll remember everything.”
 ; 
 ; SC: But it’s your view at this time.
 ; 
 ; TF: At that time, that’s right. 0 523 Fogelman Family's Synagogue Affiliations GE: With your four children, how they ended up being at different synagogues when they were growing up? 
 ; 
 ; TF: Oh, that's right, yes, that’s right. What didn't I already say that online?
 ; 
 ; GE: Well you said that you belonged to different synagogues, but here, you know- Each one ended.
 ; 
 ; TF: Okay, that’s right. Each one ended. Well the two girls ended at the Reform Synagogue. And the two- The one boy was bar mitzvahed at Bethel, where we had been married. And the other one at Sons of Israel, the Orthodox, because their friends were there. And so we never had to have a fuss about- to go to services. They- They- You know, they went with their friends. We went to the different ones, too. We felt very comfortable wherever we were. And we knew people in all the synagogues and it was very pleasant, very easy. 0 MovingImage Tama talks about the joy of growing up in Northampton and, later living in Allentown as wife and mother Interview with Tama Fogelman, February 5, 2016 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is the 5th of November- of February, I was going to say November. TAMA FOGELMAN: Thank you. SC: Thank you. I hear you. Fifth of February, 2016. And what is your full name? TF: Tama Kivert Fogelman. SC: And could you- What is your address? TF: 3057 Fairfield Drive, Allentown, P.A. SC: And so, we want to start with just stories about how you joined the synagogue and your religious life? TF: Okay, well, I think I can do that. My husband and I joined the reform Temple originally. We were married at Bethel, which is- Oh what is that? GAIL EISENBERG: Conservative. TF: Conservative, right. And then we had our daughter and she was about eight or nine years old when you start religious training. And we thought we would join K.I. because it was more how we lived and how we believed. And so that's what we did, and at that time, you went to the rabbi's house- home on a Friday. It was very, very small. Maybe it was still at 13th Street, the reformed, I don't remember. But then we had other children, we had two more- we had two boys and we had another daughter ; and they all chose different synagogues, because that's who they were friendly with. And we felt very comfortable joining others also, we were part of the whole community. That's how we felt. We were friendly with different people of different beliefs in Judaism, and we were very comfortable with that. What else can I tell you? SC: Well, what are some of your favorite family memories, as a wife and mother? TF: Oh my gosh. So many, I don't know. We always loved getting together for everybody's birthdays. You know, my sister and my parents and--we always had two parties for our children, one with just their friends and one with the family. And it was always fun and wonderful and it was wonderful. I was very happy being a wife and mother, that's how I- There was nothing else I wanted to do at that time. But as I was telling Gail, you know, every day was a new day. Your life is evolving all the time, even though you're in the same job. But it- it changes all the time. So- And my husband, we were on the same page about many things. So that made it very nice. What? GE: Do you have a story you want to share of that- about you and Jules? Either as a young couple, before you had children, or-- TF: Well, it seemed like we always had children! I don't know, we- We just got along very well, I I mean, for the most part. There was not a lot of stress in our life. I'll tell you one funny story. We- I think we only had one child then, and we lived in a little house near my parents. And so we shared a car. We had one car. He took it to work. And then if- and then I went with- with my parents- my mother or something, if I had something to do. Or if he- If I needed the car, then he went with my father to work. So one time I remember that I borrowed the car, returned it, you know, and went to work the next day. And he called me, he said, "You know," he said, "you didn't fill up the tank, the gas tank. I ran out of gas." Oh, I felt so bad. "Oh, I'm so sorry, honey!" Then another time I borrowed the car and I did it again. But the thing that- and I- I felt bad. But from then on, I never did--the whole rest of my life, I never let it get below half, half full, half empty, whatever. But the point about him was he never yelled at me. Isn't that sweet? Because he knew, you know, I didn't do it on purpose and I felt bad. But I'm just telling you what type of person he was. And that's- that's what our relationship was. I think we had a lot of respect for each other and we had a lot of fun. He was- He was a lot of fun, and I guess I was, too. And- And that was our focus--to have fun with our children, also. So that's how we lived. SC: What are your- What are your favorite stories about your children, being a mother to your children? TF: Oh, yeah, oh my gosh. There's just so many, you know, each one--now I remember people saying, "Well, boys are this way, girls are another way." I never thought that way. To me, they were individuals and that's how I treated them. Really, as individuals. And I'm sure we made a lot of mistakes, I'm not saying that, but mostly they were good kids, they turned out very nice people, I think. Loving and good, you know, so we- we had a good life with them. We had a lot of trials and tribulations along the way with them, but- but it was a good family all- all the way around, yeah. SC: What- what- With each one of them, what is something that's really memorable for each one of them? Or where they are right now, what are they doing? TF: Oh my gosh. Well, and you know, it would take forever, but--well the one son is in town now. He- He was in our business. Of course, it closed. Now he's started a business in Philadelphia called Intelligent Office, and it's like a- What do you call those offices? What's the word? GE: Sharing? TF: Well yeah, that, but it has another name to it. You know, they offer all kinds of help in office work--phone, services, rooms. I mean, it's a beautiful office. It's a- It's a- What do you call it that he bought? GE: Oh, a franchise? TF: Yeah, a franchise. And he seems very well-suited for this kind of thing--to bring in customers all the time, and... He likes meeting people. Well, you met him. He likes talking to people and hearing, you know, what they're doing. So he's been at that a few years now. So that's good. SC: This is Mark? TF: That's Mark, yeah. And Steve is in New York now, and he's- he's a writer, an actor, and that kind of thing. And our oldest daughter is a visiting nurse. She's still doing it at sixty-two years old, she still is doing that. She likes it. And then our youngest daughter works for Riderwood. I don't know if you ever heard of that whole franchise of retirement villages, of big villages, very nice. So she- She became a real estate agent and then she went into this job. So she helps people, she helps recruit people and helps them with their move to the- to the facility. So she likes it. She's very good. So- And you know, I have a lot of grandchildren, and great-grandchildren--I have seven great-grandchildren now. So it's very exciting to hear what they're all doing, and I have to write down what they say they're doing, because I may not remember it all, it's so foreign to me, but I like learning about it, you know? So what else did you want to know? GE: I think that's fine. SC: Yeah, that's fine. One other thing though--what meant the most, what gave you the most meaning of being a wife and mother? TF: That's a very good question. I wish I had given it more thought. I think just to see them all become good people and they were- they were kind people, they were good people. They weren't mean spirited that I could see. I mean, maybe they had their moments, I'm not saying that. But in general, it felt good to see how they developed and- and- and wanted to do something in the- in the world. I- SC: Seems like you and Jules were good parents. TF: Well, I don't know. SC: That's wonderful, wow. TF: Well, that's good. But I mean, there were so many things I wanted to tell you. My sister said I should write it down. I said, "Oh, don't worry. I'll remember everything." SC: But it's your view at this time. TF: At that time, that's right. SC: And so that's fine. TF: Yeah, that's right. GE: One- One last story, since you had said it earlier and I just thought it was very cute. With your four children, how they ended up being at different synagogues when they were growing up? TF: Oh, that's right, yes, that's right. What didn't I already say that online? GE: Well you said that you belonged to different synagogues, but here, you know- Each one ended. TF: Okay, that's right. Each one ended. Well the two girls ended at the Reform Synagogue. And the two- The one boy was bar mitzvahed at Bethel, where we had been married. And the other one at Sons of Israel, the Orthodox, because their friends were there. And so we never had to have a fuss about- to go to services. They- They- You know, they went with their friends. We went to the different ones, too. We felt very comfortable wherever we were. And we knew people in all the synagogues and it was very pleasant, very easy. SC: That's good. Thank you. GE: Thank you, that's wonderful. And I'm going to walk you down, so he- TF: I don't think I want to see it, though. GE: No, no, no, no, no. It will be beautiful. TF: Because I'm not good at this at all. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
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00:09:47
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Tama Fogelman, February 5, 2016
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Tama talks about the joy of growing up in Northampton and, later living in Allentown as wife and mother
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LVTNT-04
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2016-02-05
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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https://textile.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/8cd5811d8298efb3b0ad8b9fe92e6a42.png
19f55b50d12cbc05f312ee3159709c79
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Tama Fogelman
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Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-24.xml
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contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 August 7, 2013 Tama Fogelman and Maxine Klein, August 7, 2013 LVTNT-24 1:20:54 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Tama Fogelman Maxine Klein Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 FogelmanTama_KleinMaxine_20130807 1.0:|29(7)|54(2)|69(7)|82(18)|99(6)|110(8)|127(4)|144(14)|165(3)|190(11)|209(11)|226(3)|239(16)|258(3)|273(13)|292(5)|311(8)|334(10)|359(13)|390(9)|417(8)|442(9)|469(14)|496(13)|515(15)|540(9)|575(8)|604(10)|625(14)|650(9)|673(15)|704(12)|719(13)|744(8)|763(14)|782(10)|803(12)|828(8)|853(10)|884(5)|909(4)|946(10)|975(15)|1004(5)|1025(15)|1038(12)|1063(11)|1090(11)|1113(11)|1136(7)|1161(10)|1182(4)|1201(6)|1220(6)|1237(13)|1264(14)|1285(3)|1312(8)|1333(5)|1358(9)|1375(18)|1388(14)|1407(4)|1428(15)|1451(17)|1478(8)|1505(11)|1520(13)|1545(6)|1574(15)|1597(10)|1616(15)|1629(14)|1648(9)|1667(7)|1686(8)|1705(3)|1726(7)|1743(3)|1766(18)|1781(17) 0 https://youtu.be/-IX8HtCpMH4 YouTube video 0 Introducing the Kivert Sisters SC: So I’m going to ask you, first of all, to state both of your full names, and then I’ll talk to one person and then to another person. What is your full name?
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 ; TF: Tama Arlene Kivert Fogelman.
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 ; SC: And when were you born?
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 ; TF: 10-01-43.
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 ; SC: And can you talk a little about where you have lived all your life? 0 250 Family History: The Chenetz Family SC: So Tama, can you talk a little bit about what you know about your parents, their names? Where they have lived? Also, your grandparents and your great-grandparents…as much as you know about your family – going back even before they lived in the United States - whatever you know.
 ; 
 ; TF: My parents were both born in this country. My father was born in Northampton, our mother was born in Freeland, PA. My grandparents – I don’t remember where they were from. Oh, Detroit?
 ; 
 ; MK: No. Our grandparents were from – on mother’s side, on the Chenetz side – my mother’s name was Mae Chenetz. She was the third of five children. Her father came from Ukraine –- near Kiev. 0 535 Family History: The Kivert Family MK: So, let’s see what happened then with Mother. Well, then she met our father, Saul. 
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 ; TF: She worked at the Five and Ten Cent Store, across the street. 
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 ; MK: Is that where she worked? No, she didn’t work there. 
 ; 
 ; TF: Well, where did she work?
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 ; MK: She worked as a bookkeeper for one of the furniture stores – Landau. 
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 ; TF: Mother never told me that. 
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 ; MK: Oh, yeah, she worked as a bookkeeper.
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 ; TF: Well, maybe that’s where she met daddy?
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 ; MK: That’s where she met daddy.
 ; 0 1188 Saul Kivert: Entrepreneur MK: So where were we here? Daddy started the tailor shop. 
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 ; SC: That is fascinating. So he was mechanical – in so many ways.
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 ; MK: I guess he was. And he was artistic also-- later in life. He painted and did needlepoint . We have hundreds of pieces of things that he did. He was very prolific. And then in the meantime, he also baked. He baked challah.
 ; 0 1702 Saul Kivert's Tailor Shop SC: Do you know, just as a question, before we get into the business, what year he took over the business from his father and when he added the dry cleaning and the suit club?
 ; 
 ; MK: I don’t know…that was all before I was born. Well, he and mother got married in 1931. Did he have the tailor shop then or was he still running his father’s? 
 ; 
 ; TF: I don’t have any memory of his father’s business. My memory is he had the tailor shop - 2155.
 ; 
 ; MK: He had it in Hazleton.
 ; 0 2085 Maxine Klein's Memories of the Factory SC: What was the address of the factory?
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 ; MK: It was between 20 and 21st on Main Street – 20 something Main Street. It would have been an odd number.
 ; 
 ; SC: Was that an existing building?
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 ; MK: It was a bank building. I have memories, when my father started the factory. It was right after the war. During the war, women, obviously, went back to work and had a lot of men’s jobs, and they started wearing pants. The only pants that were made at that time for women were tailored like men’s pants. After the war, my father thought this was going to be a big thing. He never had his own brand – he was a contractor. So he went into New York, and he met up with a man named, S.M. Elowsky, who owned four or five different manufacturing companies. He wanted to make women’s tailored pants, because he knew how to make tailored pants.
 ; 0 2464 The Sisters' Childhood in Northampton SC: What were your memories?
 ; 
 ; TF: Related to the factory you mean?
 ; 
 ; SC: And just your memories growing up in the area.
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 ; TF: It was very nice. It was easy. You could walk anywhere any time of day and at night time you weren’t frightened to walk the street or anything.
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 ; MK: No, no.
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 ; TF: Northampton was a booming little town. 0 2583 Marriages & ; Family Businesses SC: Were most of the store owners Jewish? Because that was true in South Bethlehem. 
 ; 
 ; MK: A lot were. As she said, Coleman’s, Lerner’s.
 ; 
 ; TF: How about the cotton shop?
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 ; MK: Oh, Kroupes [?] – that was our cousin. The furniture store, Glazier’s – Northampton Furnishing.
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 ; TF: Well, that was Glaziers, but that was also Roth.
 ; 
 ; MK: No, Roth was another one.
 ; 
 ; TF: Oh, that’s right.
 ; 
 ; SC: Were they related to the Glazier’s furniture store in Allentown.
 ; 
 ; MK: Yes, yes, yes.
 ; 
 ; TF: It’s all relatives. 0 2872 Childhood Memories (cont'd) SC: Do you have any memories from childhood that you can share?
 ; 
 ; TF: Well I don’t know how it would relate to what you are interested in. As I said, life there was very nice, it was very easy. My parents were known in the community – they were liked. So I didn’t ever have to deal with anti-semitism. 
 ; 
 ; MK: I didn’t either.
 ; 
 ; TF: That is something I didn’t feel. I’m sure it was there somewhere. I know my father was very friendly with the Priest at the Catholic Church. He would go there a lot. Maybe they drank – I don’t know what they did there. I’m just saying that mother played bridge with a lot of the neighbors –so, it was a very nice life. It was a very nice life. 0 3148 The War Years: Saul Kivert & ; the Billera Pants Factory MK: Our father (during the War Years – during the 40’s), he had the tailor shop during the day and Tama remembers, he also worked for the pants factory at night.
 ; 
 ; TF: In Northampton.
 ; 
 ; MK: The Billera Pants Factory had a government contract to make …
 ; 
 ; GE: This wasn’t his pants factory? This was another pants factory?
 ; 
 ; MK: No, they had a government contract to make army uniforms.
 ; 0 3442 The Kivert Sisters: Early Adulthood SC: Maybe we should switch over to the business now?
 ; 
 ; GE: Did you want to ask them anything – in regards to their own education?
 ; 
 ; SC: We didn’t really talk about that - your own education, both of you? Did you ever become involved in the business?
 ; 
 ; TF: Well, I became involved in the business when my husband died – so that was 16 years ago.
 ; 
 ; SC: What was your education?
 ; 
 ; TF: I only went to high school. That’s as far as I went. I got married right after high school.
 ; 
 ; SC: What year did you get married?
 ; 
 ; TF: 1952.
 ; 
 ; SC: And that makes sense – that’s the way it was supposed to work back then. 0 3762 Tama Manufacturing GE: We’ve already talked a lot about the business, but we are going to continue to have that conversation. Some of these things you’ve talked about, and we’ll just go through it real quickly. In terms of who started the business, a little bit the origins, maybe just to recap and to summarize.
 ; 
 ; TF: Well, our father started the business. Maxine, you were clear about where he started -- underneath the house?
 ; 
 ; MK: I don’t know . .. you thought he had an early or a few machines in a garage or somewhere under the house. 
 ; 
 ; TF: Maybe the garage thing was behind the bank, as you thought.
 ; 
 ; MK: I remember it was ’46 that he was in the bank building then.
 ; 0 4341 The '70s: Changes in Manufacturing MK: No, it was in New York. He was there, too. During the ‘70’s, the manufacturing began to go to China and Mexico.
 ; 
 ; GE: To China that early?
 ; 
 ; MK: In the ‘70’s the factory had trouble getting stuff made there, so they decided to diversify. They opened another factory called Penn Garment that opened in Allentown. They made very specific things that I don’t remember.
 ; 
 ; GE: Separate from Tama Manufacturers?
 ; 
 ; MK: Yes, but the three of them were owners.
 ; 0 MovingImage Maxine Kline and Tama Fogelman talk about how their father, Saul Kivert, became a tailor at sixteen years old to help support his family when Saul’s father, a tailor, had a nervous breakdown. During World War II, Saul worked at a pants factory and learned the business. After the war, Saul started Tama Manufacturing-- a tailored women’s pants company. Interview with Tama Fogelman and Maxine Tannenbaum Klein, August 7, 2013 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is August 7, 2013. So I'm going to ask you, first of all, to state both of your full names, and then I'll talk to one person and then to another person. What is your full name? TAMA FOGELMAN: Tama Arlene Kivert Fogelman. SC: And when were you born? TF: 10-01-43. SC: And can you talk a little about where you have lived all your life? About the different places where you have lived. And then we'll move on, and I'll come back and talk to you specifically. TF: What I recall is growing up in Northampton, PA. I got married and lived in Allentown the rest of my life. MAXINE KLEIN: Didn't you live in Hazleton first? TF: Yes, but I don't recall it -- what do you want? SC: So your family lived in Hazleton first? TF: Originally, that's where I was born, my family was born in Hazleton. But my family moved to Northampton when I was three. SC: Do you remember the address in Northampton? TF: 2155 Main Street. SC: And where have you lived since then? What addresses? TF: Well I lived----what's that apartment? MK: Before that - you lived--.when you first married--you lived in Harrisburg. TF: Right -- it's so long ago. For a brief time, I lived in Harrisburg, on Riverside Drive, when we were first married. It was a new high-rise building. Then we moved to Allentown -- to Valley View apartment. Then we moved to 1237 Rye Street -- a little ranch house. Then we moved to 2434 Livingston Street, Allentown, and then we built this house. SC: And that's a normal progression in life. SC: Can you state your full name and when you were born and where you have lived? MK: Maxine Kivert Tannenbaum Klein. I was born May 23, 1942. I lived at 2155 Main Street in Northampton. Then we lived at 1137 Lehigh Parkway East in Allentown. Then I got married, and we lived in the Jordan Park Apartments. Then I lived for two years in Fort Benning, GA, with my husband, during all the "race goings-on" in the early '60's. Then we lived on South 12th Street in an apartment, when we came back to Allentown. Then we bought a house on 21st St. in Allentown, 1118 North 21st St. Then we moved to Muhlenberg Street -- 840 N. Muhlenberg Street. Then my first husband died. Soon after, I bought another house on Hampton Road -- 1436 Hampton Road in Allentown. And then I lived in an apartment behind Wegman's for two years. And now, we live in Orefield. Lots of places! SC: Tama, let's start with you -- the two of you with the history -- if you remember background from your parents, grandparents, you can chime in at this point and then we'll be more specific. SC: So Tama, can you talk a little bit about what you know about your parents, their names? Where they have lived? Also, your grandparents and your great-grandparents--as much as you know about your family -- going back even before they lived in the United States - whatever you know. TF: My parents were both born in this country. My father was born in Northampton, our mother was born in Freeland, PA. My grandparents -- I don't remember where they were from. Oh, Detroit? MK: No. Our grandparents were from -- on mother's side, on the Chenetz side -- my mother's name was Mae Chenetz. She was the third of five children. Her father came from Ukraine --- near Kiev. Her biological mother was from there, too. Her name was Tilly or Tama -- they [the grandparents] came to America in the early 1900's after the turn of the century. They were not married when they came over, they posed as sister and brother. But I think they were engaged. Somewhat scandalous -- they shared the same room coming over. TF: I think that was common! MK: This is mother! This is what mother said. They came over and they did marry here. Then they lived in Freeland. When they first came here they lived in McAdoo, and my grandfather's name was Morris Chenetz, my mother's father. His father came over also, Moses Chenetz. They lived in Freeland and initially he had a backpack, and he was a peddler. Then he and his brother Barney opened a men's store in downtown Freeland. Then many years later they opened another store in Hazleton. That's where the family grew up, mostly in Freeland, supported by that store. SC: Was the store a clothing store? MK: Men's clothing - Chenetz Men Store. SC: Did they purchase their goods from New York? MK: Yes. They were not tailors. He purchased it from all the well known brand names of men's clothing at that time. His first wife, Tilly, died around 1919, after she delivered their fourth child, which was premature. Both the child and then she died from infection. As my mother had told us, antiseptic methods hadn't reached Freeland yet. She got an infection from an intervention by the doctor, whatever, and then she died. Then our grandfather married again, six months later. He went to Chicago and came back with his new wife, didn't tell the children, [just] came back. Her name was Lottie Holstein. She really raised our mother and the other two from that time on, and then she [Lottie] went on to have two more daughters. One of them is still living, the second youngest one, Evelyn Diamond, lives in Baltimore, no, Washington. So, let's see what happened then with Mother. Well, then she met our father, Saul. TF: She worked at the Five and Ten Cent Store, across the street. MK: Is that where she worked? No, she didn't work there. TF: Well, where did she work? MK: She worked as a bookkeeper for one of the furniture stores -- Landau. TF: Mother never told me that. MK: Oh, yeah, she worked as a bookkeeper. TF: Well, maybe that's where she met daddy? MK: That's where she met daddy. Daddy came up with a friend, who was a manager for J.J. Newberry -- the friend was. They had to come up to the Hazleton store. He came up with him from Northampton. My mother said she saw them across the street. Their place was right on Main Street. She was looking out the window and she saw these two guys and she and her friend went down to meet them and then my father said, then, he saw this woman who was built like a "you know what!" SC: Well built? MK: Anyway they met on the corner right outside J.J. Newberry. Then he would drive up from Northampton in his Model T Ford -- which had no top on it. He said he had to drive up the mountain backwards because it didn't have enough engine energy, so he had to come up backwards. He'd come up and he'd bring her home from school. He would wait outside the school for her. And she was annoyed because she was dating this guy, and she was dating that guy, and there he was, he was always there--he was just there. Anyway, they eloped. SC: What was his name? MK: Saul Kivert and he used the middle initial A. but he wasn't given one. He just thought he needed one. I should go back to his parents. Shouldn't I? SC: Yes, but what year were the two of them born? MK: My mother was born in 1912 and my father was born in 1909 -- the youngest of six children. SC: So this was in the 1920's -- the Model T? MK: Oh yes, he bought his first car for 10 dollars. His father was named Samuel Kivert. Samuel was from a shtetl in Russia called-- they lived in Verner [sounds like], although Samuel himself was from another shtetl called Peinyan [soundslike]. But he and his wife, Hilda [in Yiddish, Hindelaya] -- her maiden name was Shaefer -lived in Verner. When they decided to come to America, it might have been in 1902. He came over, leaving her and three -- well four -- one had died of measles, so there were three remaining children there - to make a living here. His wife had a sister living in Bethlehem -- she had come before. She had married Coleman, that was her married name. The only way you could come was if you had someone to sponsor you or if you knew where you could find employment. Now, my father's father, Samuel, was a tailor -- so what I understand is that the family was tailors for three hundred years back. They were just all tailors. There was a job available in the Lehigh Valley because it was a burgeoning industrial area, so he came under the sponsorship of his sister-in-law. Where he lived, I don't know where. He probably lived with them, but I don't know -- for two years, until he earned enough money to bring over Hilda and the three children. They must have come over around 1905, as far as I can guess. Then they had two more children, Ida and my father, who was the youngest. Anna, Joe and Arthur were born in Europe, and Ida and dad were born here. My grandfather was a tailor, but then I understand that he opened up a store in Bath. They lived in Bath then. He opened up a store that sold clothing for the farmers -- that sort of thing. TF: Overalls. MK: Overalls and that kind of thing. His father was a tailor also and they custom-made clothes. There was an article in the paper at one time. My father and his father had made this huge pair of overalls for an enormous farmer. Each of them stood on a separate leg and the newspaper took their picture. SC: Was that the Morning Call? MK : Yes. Anyway, his father, Samuel, became ill -- he had a nervous breakdown and could no longer work. Our father, Saul, knew that somebody had to do something. He went downstairs and took his father's sewing machine apart and put it back together again -- to try to figure out how it works. Then he took a garment apart (a pair of pants) and put it back together again to learn how to do this. He then became a tailor. He opened up a tailor shop. He was about 16 or 17. He had a lot of other jobs, but ultimately he opened up his own tailor shop. A couple of years later, when he was around 19 or 20, he met my mother -- they got married in 1931. TF: Excuse me one second. Where was that tailor shop? When he was young? MK: I don't know--it was in Northampton. I don't know--.He said his parents lived above the Five and Dime or Millers -- somewhere there. I don't know if his tailor shop was somewhere else. SC: So they lived in Bath, but the tailor shop was in Northampton? MK: I think they moved to Northampton. His parents moved to Northampton, as well. TF: But when Zadie [Yiddish for grandfather] had that nervous breakdown, daddy had to go to Allentown to bring him over every day to work in the tailor shop. MK: That's right. TF: So, I don't know in-between there. When Zadie and his wife and family moved to Allentown, maybe they lived with Aunt Annie. MK: They lived with their oldest daughter Annie on South West Street. With Anna and Dave Plotnick [?] -- his [Saul's] parents did. Then he got sick. It was around 1920 because it was right around the time that the Allentown State Hospital opened up. He was hospitalized in New Jersey for a while. He was originally hospitalized in New Jersey because he was enormously overweight, and he had lost 150 lbs. in about six months. and he kind of lost his mind also. TF: That is what they say-- MK: This is just how things are. We don't know what really happened. Personally, I don't know how any of them can stay sane - living in Europe with the pogroms and the whole thing and coming here--.it was just perilous. TF: The thing was they had family here for them to come to. It wasn't like going to the Lower East Side. That must have been a whole different experience. MK: Yeah but they still didn't speak any English -- there's a whole lot of them--not only them, that whole generation that came over. SC: So initially they did go to the Lower East Side? MK: No, they never went - neither parent -- my mother's nor my father's parents ever lived in New York. My mother's family went right to McAdoo-- to the coal regions in Pennsylvania, and our father came right to the Lehigh Valley. SC: And, there was a small Jewish community in the coal region? MK: Yes, absolutely. TF: And synagogues -- even in Northampton there was a synagogue. MK: Yes, our grandfather was one of the founders of that synagogue. In Northampton -- there used to be one. That synagogue is defunct now. TF: I remember going to it. MK: I do, too. TF: We took you -- that's good. MK: Charles Glazier and I used to run up and down the back steps. TF: That's all the kids did--.you went in the basement and played - you didn't really sit at the services. MK: Am I giving too much information? SC: No, not at all. MK: So where were we here? Daddy started the tailor shop. SC: That is fascinating. So he was mechanical -- in so many ways. MK: I guess he was. And he was artistic also-- later in life. He painted and did needlepoint . We have hundreds of pieces of things that he did. He was very prolific. And then in the meantime, he also baked. He baked challah. TF: Yes, he taught us all to bake challah. MK: I taught him now to make challah! TF: Oh, you did? Oh well. MK: He baked cookies--. TF: But he baked challahs for so many people's Bar Mitzvahs and things. SC: Did he like school? MK: No, because he stuttered. He had a speech impediment and he stuttered very markedly. He used to perform in minstrel shows in Northampton. There were minstrel shows that they would put on. And, of course, when he sang, he didn't stutter. He liked doing that. TF: He and Benny Glazier were "Endmen" on the minstrel show. They made up stuff -- they forgot -- they made up stories, whatever. MK: He was a comedian -- my father -- he really was. By the time I grew up, or I have a recollection of him, I remember him stuttering -- but not nearly as bad as he did when he was young. TF: Also in high school he worked for the baseball team. He was the water boy and he got paid. He was always involved with things. MK: He also learned to drive when he was nine years old! His father bought a car when my father was just nine -- he was the youngest and he would drive! People would see him driving down the street and they didn't think anybody was driving the car. He was very small as a child. When he graduated high school he was only 5'6". When he was twenty one he was 5'11". So he was really small. And then, not only did he work for the baseball team, but he also worked for Schisler Funeral Home. SC: Was that the Blue Mountain Baseball League? Do you remember? MK: I don't know? TF: It was high school. SC: So it wasn't one of the adult sort of semi-pro? TF: Not that I recall. MK: When he was in high school, Schlisler would call him if they needed someone to drive the hearse. So he would get out of school, and he would go and drive this hearse-- and he was little and he had this big black top hat on. He said that was probably all they could really see. Sometimes he would have to go with them to help move the body. Bring the bodies from the place that they died into the funeral home. They would put them inside a basket -- they would carry the bodies in a basket. One time he was picking this person up and his hands went through everything -- the person must have been dead a long time. Well, he got so sick, he never went back again. That was the end of his job at Schisler Funeral Home. TF: I don't think I ever heard that story. MK: Oh God, I've heard it many times. TF: You heard it? MK: Yes, many times. This is not really related? SC: No, it is -- it absolutely is. It's showing his expertise -- different types of expertise of many things that will make him a businessman. MK: He saved up a lot of money. He had a bank account and from the time he was very young, he believed in saving money. He always saved money all through his life, no matter what they did, they always saved money. And when he was young, his next in line, his sister Ida, was a little older -- none of his siblings were that particularly gorgeous-- but Ida was the prettiest one of all. We think our father was very handsome, also -- they kind of got better as they went -- she improved! But Ida was the apple of her mother's eye. My father had said that when he was in high school, he had saved up about four hundred dollars, which was a lot of money then. His mother went into his bank account, took the money out without asking him, to buy Ida a fur coat, which, obviously, he never forgot. TF: But he didn't say anything -- this was his family. Can you imagine? Oh My God. MK: So she could be attractive and get a nice man and all that. Anyway, that was part of his character. He never objected, he always loaned money to other family members. TF: He was family -- he was very attached to family, that's the thing. No matter what! When anyone in the family needed help, he did everything he could. SC: So he was born in 1909 and when he was sixteen he took apart the machine. MK: Approximately that. It was in the early 20's because his father was in the hospital then, the State Hospital. SC: He must have been artistic, he must have had a sense of (being very smart) taking things apart visually and putting them back together again, and he saved money. So he had a sense of how to be a businessman. MK: How to get out of where he was and into what he wanted to do. TF: And don't forget he also then had the dry cleaning in the tailor shop. MK: Oh, that's right. He started dry cleaning also. TF: I can see that "big unit" in the tailor shop. MK: See, I don't remember much of that because I wasn't born yet. TF: And, he had that club every week. The Men's Suit Club. He'd go into New York and buy fabric. Customer's would come in and pick out the fabric. He'd measure them, and he would make magnificent men's suits. MK: Yes, we have pictures of suits he made for us. Every Easter he would always make suits for us -- we all had matching suits with hats. TF: And he made all my clothing, skirts -- "skurts", I used to say-- that's how I spoke! MK: He also did most of Mother's shopping when he would go into New York. He'd buy her clothes. TF: Well, he'd bring us all things. We always loved whatever he bought. MK: Everything he bought was always "right" for each one. TF: He loved Macy's. He'd always go to Macy's - R.H. Macy's. MK: That was his "hot spot" TF: Of retail. SC: Did you ever go to New York with him? MK: Yes. SC: Did you ever go to Macy's with him? MK: I remember going to the Lower East Side. TF: We'd go shopping there, then he took us shopping to the stores. MK: I remember going to the Lower East Side and going to some of the fabric places he went to, then some of the delicatessens. Then in the early 50's he took me to my first Broadway show, which was Guys and Dolls, in 1950 with the original cast and then two years later, they took me again. SC: Which show? MK: South Pacific. We saw the original -- South Pacific. TF: I think maybe we all went. Did Randi? MK: No. TF: But she was born in 1953. MK: Yes, but she wouldn't go in 1953. TF: No, not in '53. But she was little when we took her. I remember we used to tell her -- she'd sit in the back seat with Mama and Pop. We'd tell her to hold her breath as she was going under the tunnel . MK: Oh, you're so mean! TF: Well, I guess she knew it was funny. MK: Yeah, he was very proactive in terms of family. SC: Do you know, just as a question, before we get into the business, what year he took over the business from his father and when he added the dry cleaning and the suit club? MK: I don't know--that was all before I was born. Well, he and mother got married in 1931. Did he have the tailor shop then or was he still running his father's? TF: I don't have any memory of his father's business. My memory is he had the tailor shop - 2155. MK: He had it in Hazleton. TF: That's right in Hazleton. MK: Right after they were married, a week later, they convinced my mother's oldest sister, Ethel, and her fiancé Sam Copland, to elope as well. Then the two families lived together in the same apartment in Hazleton. TF: Alter Street. I can see the sign, Copland and Kivert. MK: They opened a tailor and dry cleaning there. SC: And the name of the street was? MK: Alter Street in Hazleton. And the name of the outfit was Copland and Kivert. We have a picture of that somewhere -- Copland and Kivert. TF: So what was that dry cleaning or tailor? I think it was dry cleaning, too. MK: Yes it was. TF: We lived up above. I don't remember that so clearly, but we would go visit a lot after we left there and moved to Northampton. MK: Then they moved to Northampton after about two or three years. Tama was born there and Ethel and Sam had their first daughter, who they also named Tama. Tama Lee. TF: She lives in town. MK: I don't know if you know Tama Lee Barski? TF: She has a lot of energy and does a lot of good in the community. MK: So the two Tamas lived together, and the parents lived together, and then our parents and this Tama came back to Northampton after about two or three years, and he opened his own, 2155 -- they must have bought the house then -- there. TF: I don't know -- I know they first lived in the apartment, in the back somewhere. MK: I thought that was when they were first married. TF: Well, I remember. MK: So it must have been with you then. So they didn't have a house right away. TF: I don't know where the tailor shop was --maybe he rented? MK: Maybe the tailor shop was under the house. TF: I don't know if they bought it, maybe they just rented. MK: Well, they didn't own that house 2155. They rented it from the neighbors, Annie and Charlie Driscoll [?], who lived next door. SC: That was in Northampton--on Main Street? That was in the 1930's? MK: Correct. SC: So we can look that up - on Ancestry. MK: Go ahead. TF: I just didn't want to forget that our father had this vision, what excited him when he saw a pair of ladies slacks -- was how the pockets were and the zipper had to all line up. SC: So the brother-in-law stayed in Hazleton but moved over to the store. MK: Chenetz Men's Shop. SC: That was his father-in-law's. MK: Father-in-law, and then he owned it also. They ended up owning it together I believe. And it was on Broad Street in Hazleton for as long as I know. TF: Well, Tama Lee moved here after Moishe died and that's when the store closed, I guess. MK: So, their third generation - the other Tama -- her husband -- they moved up from Philadelphia and he went into the men's shop also--.and Uncle Charlie, my mother's brother, worked there for a long time also. That was sort of the family business. TF: Then he moved to Northampton and worked in the factory for a while. MK: Uncle Charlie did -- yes, he did. My Uncle was not doing well. He and his wife and children --- they had a lot of problems. So, my father in his usual way, decided to move them all to Northampton and Charlie, his brother-in-law, would work in the factory, and they'd get the children into the good school system in Northampton and straighten them all out. That lasted for a couple of years and then my Uncle Charlie decided he was working too hard and wanted more money, and my father said forget that, and that was the end of that. They moved back to Hazleton. SC: Do either one of you have memories of your childhood -- where you went to school and any type of specific memories and then when you got married and were you connected to the shops or the factory? TF: Oh yes, we were very connected. First of all the tailor shop was under where we lived, and the factory was just a block away. So every day after school, I'd stop in there. SC: What was the address of the factory? MK: It was between 20 and 21st on Main Street -- 20 something Main Street. It would have been an odd number. SC: Was that an existing building? MK: It was a bank building. I have memories, when my father started the factory. It was right after the war. During the war, women, obviously, went back to work and had a lot of men's jobs, and they started wearing pants. The only pants that were made at that time for women were tailored like men's pants. After the war, my father thought this was going to be a big thing. He never had his own brand -- he was a contractor. So he went into New York, and he met up with a man named, S.M. Elowsky, who owned four or five different manufacturing companies. He wanted to make women's tailored pants, because he knew how to make tailored pants. He opened the factory in around 1945 and opened around 1946 -- right when the war ended. He used to go to Atlanta -- it was very difficult to get machinery because this was after the war and this wasn't readily available. So he bought a lot of machinery in Atlanta, Georgia as well as in other areas. I have a doll that came from that trip. I have two very favorite dolls that came from trips that he made to Atlanta. He would go into Rich's Department Store in Atlanta. The first doll was Esmerelda, which I still have in my curio cabinet. The second doll I named Sally Waters. She was one of those dolls where the eyes - it was a mama doll. Anyway, on the one trip when he came back, he was opening the factory in this bank building, I remember standing on the front porch of this. It was just a block away from where the two streets of Northampton come together. I can still see him. He was bringing machinery home from Atlanta. Someone was driving--- it was some kind of van car that they had in the 30's, and it was loaded with machinery. He was bringing it up, he was going to go around the back of the building and was going to bring it in the back of the building. As he comes through this intersection -- he is hanging on the outside of the back -- hanging on to some machinery - his whole body is outside of the car. I'm sure he didn't come home from Atlanta that whole way. But, I saw him flying up the road, he's waving. That was such a clear memory. That was around 1945-1946 -- I had to be four years old. TF: He was strong as a bull. He was so strong. He helped carry our breakfront up the whole flight of steps at Valley View Apartments. MK: My mother would send me down the alley, and I could go to the factory whenever I wanted to. There was a little office where the secretary sat -- her name was Dorothy. TF: Dottie. MK: Was her name Dorothy Wahl? TF: No. MK: Anyway, her name was Dorothy. And, I would sit there and sharpen a lot of pencils and things like that. I felt so important -- I was four or five. Then other times, I would go to the spreading department -- where they would spread all the fabric before they cut it on the big, long tables that were located in the basement of the building. I remember sitting on the stairs that led down to the basement watching the men and they had these fluorescent lights -- it was very bright and lit -- even though it was a very dank kind of basement. I remember they had calendars up with war pin-up girls, Betty Grable and all of these--.and I learned the word "cheesecake" from them. TF Oh, she's a rotten kid! MK: Right -- they never took the calendars down, even though I was there. GAIL EISENBERG: I remember seeing those types of things. MK: I was at the factory a lot - just because I had nothing else to do, and I found it endlessly fascinating. TF: And, she was such a good girl -- it's not like she tore places apart. MK: No, I would just sit and watch. TF: I liked taking her with me with my friends. MK: She schlepped [Yiddish for dragged] me everywhere in Northampton. SC: And, of course all the cutters were men. MK: They were all men, oh yes, and all the sewers were women. Only the cutters and some of the foremen were men -- I'm trying to think what else--.no, that's it. All the rest were all women. GE: And they made women's pants. This was new at the time. MK: New, right. Then they also made - S.M. Elowsky had a company that made children's clothes -- Derby. All bottoms, always bottoms -- they never made tops. SC: In the 1950's did he make blue jeans? MK: No, never made jeans - always tailored pants. TF: And then maybe they made skorts? MK: They made skirts. TF: Like pants and skirts. MK: And just regular skirts they made, too. GE: We'll get into the business later. SC: What were your memories? TF: Related to the factory you mean? SC: And just your memories growing up in the area. TF: It was very nice. It was easy. You could walk anywhere any time of day and at night time you weren't frightened to walk the street or anything. MK: No, no. TF: Northampton was a booming little town. They had a few department stores, believe it or not. Maybe you heard it from other interviews. Lerner's , which was a Jewish family, Coleman's, which was a Jewish family - lovely department stores. They had everything -- bras, nightgowns, children's clothes. MK: Miller's? TF: But they weren't Jewish. MK: But we went there anyway. TF: Oh yeah. I'm just saying, the whole town was thriving and it was a great little town. There was one movie. I went to the movies a lot with mother. GE: Is that still the "Roxy"? MK: Yes, I went there all the time, too. TF: We lived just a block up from there. SC: Do you remember who owned Miller's? TF: Well I guess they were the Miller's! But they weren't Jewish. I can't recall right now. SC: But it wasn't Harvey? MK: Doesn't sound right. I think I would recognize it because my father would call him by his first name. We always like to go into Miller's -- they had a wonderful - in their basement they had a big hardware section. We got a lot of things there. He liked the hardware section at Miller's. GE: Where were these department stores? MK: On Main Street -- right across from where the factory was. TF: It was the "Main" street. GE: Because I've been to the Roxy. MK: It would be from the Roxy sort of north. TF: Well, up to 21st and down to 17th. MK: Right, between 17th and 21st was all the businesses. Above 21st was just residence. SC: Were most of the store owners Jewish? Because that was true in South Bethlehem. MK: A lot were. As she said, Coleman's, Lerner's. TF: How about the cotton shop? MK: Oh, Kroupes [?] -- that was our cousin. The furniture store, Glazier's -- Northampton Furnishing. TF: Well, that was Glaziers, but that was also Roth. MK: No, Roth was another one. TF: Oh, that's right. SC: Were they related to the Glazier's furniture store in Allentown. MK: Yes, yes, yes. TF: It's all relatives. MK: I can tell you a funny story about that - one that goes way back. This is an interesting story. When our grandfather, Sam Kivert, was at the dock in -- I think they said he left from Latvia -- what was the port there -- Riga, maybe? He was on the dock, ready to leave to come to America. He met another man, whose last name was Zowman -- who had a little boy -- his son with him, who also was going to America. The son's name was Cecil. TF: Oh, for Heaven's Sake. Well, maybe they have some of that. MK: They may, I don't know. SC: No, we don't. MK: Cecil was about six at the time. Cecil and his father were going to America. I don't know if the mother had died already -- I don't remember that. I got this story from Cecil, when he was close to 90. So they were standing on the dock, and they started talking, and they realized that they were going to the same place in America -- into the Lehigh Valley. I don't know why Mr. Zowman was going there -- I mean I don't know who his relatives were. So they made the passage together. Cecil said he just ran all over the ship all the time. They got to America, and they remained friendly. Zowman's name was changed to Salman here, and he worked for a number of years, he got lung cancer a few years after he came here, and he died when Cecil was an early teenager. Fast forward several generations, Cecil's daughter or Mr. Zowman's granddaughter married Sam Kivert's grandson. GE: Oh my goodness. MK: Buddy and Carol Kivert. So now we are related to the Salmans. And then the Salman's married into the Glazier's. So we are sort of -- by marriage -- related to all of them. TF: And then the Colemans. MK: We are related to some of the Colemans. TF: But I can't remember who. Somehow we were never friendly with many of the Bethlehem people. It's the strangest thing. MK: No, they came earlier and as was the habit in many of the immigrants, the earlier ones looked down on the ones that came later. They were more peasant-like. The earlier ones were more well-established. They didn't really want to be so associated with these lowly peasants that came over almost a generation after they did. I think that is a factor. TF: Oh the Coleman's. I don't know if that was a fact, but just that the one wife of one the Coleman's was a snob. Nobody was good enough for her. She really didn't even want to be Jewish. I think that is what it was. People like that! MK: We are also related to a lot of the Coleman's in the Lehigh Valley, as well. Any of these old families, I'm sure you'd find it in any small community, if you go back far enough and they all came over at the same time, how many people did they have to marry anyway? That was an interesting story from the boat. TF: That was the first time I heard that one. MK: Cecil told me that one. TF: Well, you didn't tell me. MK: Oh, I might have, sorry. TF: Maybe you did--you're right. SC: Do you have any memories from childhood that you can share? TF: Well I don't know how it would relate to what you are interested in. As I said, life there was very nice, it was very easy. My parents were known in the community -- they were liked. So I didn't ever have to deal with anti-semitism. MK: I didn't either. TF: That is something I didn't feel. I'm sure it was there somewhere. I know my father was very friendly with the Priest at the Catholic Church. He would go there a lot. Maybe they drank -- I don't know what they did there. I'm just saying that mother played bridge with a lot of the neighbors --so, it was a very nice life. It was a very nice life. I don't have any complaints. I had friends, boyfriends -- they didn't keep me from having boyfriends, or anything like that-- which a lot of people did. They didn't let their children mingle with non-Jewish. I guess my parents felt, why take that away? But, I did marry a Jewish man. MK: I guess the question is, "why did mother and dad move to Allentown?" TF: Oh, that's true. That's right. That's why they moved--.they wanted me to be exposed more. That's right. I forgot that part. And, I understood it wasn't anything they were angry with me about -- they just felt it was a better move for their children. Not just me -- for Maxine, too. MK: And, at the time, most of the Jewish families that lived in Northampton had already started to move to Allentown. TF: Oh, yes, that's right. I think the Roths had moved. MK: Roths had moved and the Levine -- from Levine and Sons - Morris and Helen moved. And, the Weins - Bernie. TF: Oh yes, a lot of their friends had moved. MK: And Bennie and Ann Glazier had built a house in the West End. All the Jewish friends had already moved. My parents didn't really feel the need to move because the factory was there [in Northampton]. He was still active in the factory. TF: He drove to the factory every day from Allentown. SC: So when did they move to Allentown? TF: In my senior year in high school. MK: 1950. SC: When they moved then, where did you live in Allentown? TF: 1137 Lehigh Parkway East. It's still there. It's at the tip of a little hill. It's right at the five points near the Parkway. We were invited to go visit there a few years ago. When we went, we laughed so hard -- what those people did to the house! Naturally, we'd say that! They closed off doors and windows. The little dressing room of mother and dad's room -- they made it into a little reading room. We thought that was so funny! MK: But the kitchen, it was forty years -- it was all the same appliances -- they never changed anything in the kitchen -- it was quite amazing. TF: It was a nice kitchen. MK: After we moved to Allentown - that was in 1950, Tama went to her senior year at Allen High -- which was hard - because all her friends were in Northampton. TF: I played hooky a lot and went back. I'm in the yearbook of Northampton. That's the school I go to for all the reunions -- because I knew everybody as young people. But, there were nice people at Allen -- I made friends with some of the people there--.that was not a problem. What else? MK: Soon after we moved here, our father (during the War Years -- during the 40's), he had the tailor shop during the day and Tama remembers, he also worked for the pants factory at night. TF: In Northampton. MK: The Billera Pants Factory had a government contract to make -- GE: This wasn't his pants factory? This was another pants factory? MK: No, they had a government contract to make army uniforms. If you worked in government, you didn't have to go into the service. He was a little bit old to be drafted at the time. He was in his late 20's when the war broke out. TF: They were drafting -- married men with children and older men. MK: So he went to work at the pants factory at night to avoid having to go into the army. Tama remembers sometimes he would fall asleep sitting on the toilet -- he would work all these jobs, all these hours. SC: But, he learned the pants business MK: And how to do a whole production, he was in charge of production. He was a supervisor. He learned that then. Then after the war, he felt comfortable enough to open his own factory. MK: He worked very hard. What he would do--.he was in the factory by 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning. They would make the goods and very often at the end of the day he would drive to New York to deliver the goods. There were no superhighways then, it was the old 22 -- he would take a load in, deliver it. TF: But, he developed a very good reputation for quick delivery and anything else. Whatever he promised, he made good. I was just reading what mother said in this interview, that he was a "go-getter" -- that's what she called him! MK: He also smoked three packs of cigarettes a day at the time -- in addition to working all hours. Well, when he was 45, in 1954, he had a massive heart attack. Fortunately he survived it. He was in the hospital for six weeks -- that's what they did then. He had to stop smoking. TF: He stopped completely and never smoked again. MK: Yes he did. He did -- he started again -- smoking. TF: He told me he never smoked -- couldn't stand the smell of smoke. MK: That's after the second heart attack. TF: You are right. Go ahead. MK: So he had a heart attack. Randi, her oldest daughter, was about two at the time. So he completely had to change his lifestyle -- which he fortunately did. By this time, Tama's husband - Jules Fogelman -- he was doing something else for a while -- but he came into the factory to learn. TF: He learned, he made little aprons -- he learned how to sew. My husband did. I still have that apron he made when I was pregnant with Randi. MK: I have mine that Arnold made. TF: Oh do you -- that's too funny! MK: Later, I got married in 1960. My husband, Arnold Tanenbaum, was very entrepreneurial and knew that he wanted to go into the business. He was thinking about other things, but my father wanted him to come into the business and it was something that came very natural to him. So he went into the business, too. My father was -- pretty much - able to exit this intense time and effort in the business. SC: But, when he went to New York -- he got to know all the manufacturers? MK: Oh, sure. He knew everybody and they knew him. He had a very good reputation. GE: But he was a contractor -- he didn't have his own brand. TF: Correct. GE: He just made the pants for the label. TF: And cutting. Some factories only did the sewing. We did the cutting and sewing. MK: The whole garment. TF: Not the designing. That was what the brand did. SC: Maybe we should switch over to the business now? GE: Did you want to ask them anything -- in regards to their own education? SC: We didn't really talk about that - your own education, both of you? Did you ever become involved in the business? TF: Well, I became involved in the business when my husband died -- so that was 16 years ago. SC: What was your education? TF: I only went to high school. That's as far as I went. I got married right after high school. SC: What year did you get married? TF: 1952. SC: And that makes sense -- that's the way it was supposed to work back then. TF: Well it was fine for me -- I'm not saying it's for anybody else. I was involved in the business -- to a point. It was very stressful. That's all I can say -- I'm glad it's all over. Do I have to talk about any more? SC: Was your husband in the armed services at all? TF: He was before we got married. SC: So you were a post-war wife in a way -- in '52. TF: It was the Korean War. He didn't go overseas. SC: But you were a post-war wife. That was '45 into the late '50's. That was the culture at the time. TF: If you had a question, I could answer. But I can't think of where to begin. GE: And I'm going to ask you questions about the business. SC: That's fine. I just wanted to put you into the cultural context. It made sense that you went to high school and did you become a housewife then? TF: Oh, yes. SC: That's the culture at that time--.you were supposed to do that, to be a good wife. TF: I wasn't even aware of it -- it's something I liked to do. MK: You worked at Hess's for a year - as a personal shopper. TF: Oh, yes, I forgot about that. I liked that. MK: She was very good at it too. GE: And Maxine, what was your education? MK: When I graduated high school, all I really wanted to do was get married and have children. The person that I loved then, Arnold Tanenbaum, he was in college still, so I went to school - Fairleigh-Dickinson in New Jersey to become a dental hygienist. Which I left after a year -- I didn't like it -- it was too boring. Then he graduated college and so we decided to get married then. I was 19 and he was 22. So we got married, and he went into the service. I was a housewife, and I would type theme papers for people who were going to Muhlenberg and things like that -- in my spare time. Then we went to Georgia for two years where our oldest daughter was born. Came back and Arnold went into the business. I worked at the factory a couple of summers, and I also worked when he was in basic training -- I worked at the factory. Sometimes I did finishing, sometimes I worked in the office. Also, for a while later, when it was Arnold and Jules in the factory, they were having some problems with quality control. And I came in for a while and I walked around and did quality control -- for a couple of weeks in the factory. When I was 38 -- I went to Nursing School to become an RN. I went to the Community College, Arnold was still alive then. I graduated in 1983, and he died a month after I graduated. I became an oncology nurse for a while, and then I remarried. I married Don Klein, and I went back to school to become a nurse practitioner when I was 53, and then I worked for Planned Parenthood for 12 years until I retired. So I have a little association with the factory, but not much, the rest has been in medicine. SC: We are going to the business now. GE: We've already talked a lot about the business, but we are going to continue to have that conversation. Some of these things you've talked about, and we'll just go through it real quickly. In terms of who started the business, a little bit the origins, maybe just to recap and to summarize. TF: Well, our father started the business. Maxine, you were clear about where he started -- underneath the house? MK: I don't know . .. you thought he had an early or a few machines in a garage or somewhere under the house. TF: Maybe the garage thing was behind the bank, as you thought. MK: I remember it was '46 that he was in the bank building then. So part of the factory was in the bank building, but the pressing, the ultimate finishing -- where you put the belts in and all that kind of stuff, and the pressing - was done under our house -- a block up on Main Street. All the garments had to be taken out of the factory when they were finished and brought up to the finishing room. The factory was called Tama Manufacturing. When I was old enough to realize what had happened, I said to my father, "why didn't you name it after me?" He said, "I did, I named it after both of you. It's the first two letters of each of your names." GE: He was very smart! TF: Maybe that was it! MK: Oh, I don't know, it was so funny. I laughed at the time. I understood why he named it that. GE: Just so we understand, at this time did he already give up the tailor shop? MK: Yes. When he started the factory, he gave up the tailor shop because the pressers were then taken over by the factory -- it was part of the factory production. GE: Did he sell the tailor shop? MK: No, I think he just closed it. Because it was right there, he just closed it up and did this. GE: And just converted the machinery that he was using for pressing as a dry cleaner now became part of that area -- the finishing. MK: He probably had one or two other machines there. GE: Now, which manufacturer he was contracting for? And which brands? MK: Yes, right, a lot of different ones throughout the year. I know Derby was the children's line. TF: Then there was the Junior Rite. MK: What was the main one? TF: What was the one with the woman's name? A name that you knew-- MK: Liz Clairborne -- that was later. He made for Liz Clairborne - that was after Arnold and Jugge [nickname of Jules] were already there. The early years were mostly S. M. Elowski and his companies. GE: Tell us -- would you spell the name? The manufacturer that he principally worked with was - his partner was whom? MK: It wasn't a partner -- well actually he had a partner when he first opened his business. It was Jack Waitz. He decided that he needed a partner so when he first opened the factory in the bank, Jack Waitz (which is now -- Waitz -- I think they do -- advertising--) TF: Esther Halperin's brother -- Jack Waitz. Her maiden name was Waitz. GE: Oh My Goodness! Wow! MK: So, Jack Waitz was only a partner for a year or two. I don't even remember him. I don't even remember that he was a partner, I was very little, and I don't remember that name. TF: Evan Picone -- I can think of more, too. MK: That was another one -- he worked for Evan Picone. So, he separated with Jack -- he bought him out after a year. My father always had trouble with a partner because he put so much of himself into it. He thought it wasn't fair -- no one else would ever work as hard as he did. So he just wanted to stay on good terms and end the business. They didn't have a fight or anything. GE: So he was the sole proprietor and he did contract work for -- MK: S.M. Elowski -- something like that. GE: And, it was just for whatever brands S. M. Elowski owned. MK: He worked for him for many years -- maybe until Jugge came in. Then he started to move in other directions. GE: So your father's major customer was S. M. Elowski - until his son-in-law joined the business. Do you know if for S. M. Elowski, your father was his sole supplier? MK: No. He had others, he was large -- he was in New York. GE: Even after when your husband entered the business and later when your husband (Tama) entered the business, did his relationship with S.M. Elowski last for a very long time? TF: I think so. MK: As long as S. M. was involved -- S. M. was old -- older than my father. He was a real pioneer. TF: I think he was still when Jugge came in -- he was still involved. MK: I think so, too. Then they moved--.there were other brands. Those brands were sort of fading a little bit. Other brands were coming up. TF: They were getting more offers from other companies. So he diversified. Then my husband decided to put all his eggs in one basket. MK: That was after Arnold died, that was much later. TF: Right. MK: In the early days they worked for Evan Picone, Liz Clairborne, and then they got Alfred Dunner. GE: Bobbi Brooks? MK: Pandora. GE: Were all these manufacturers in New York? MK: Yes, and then they got Alfred Dunner. GE: Oh! MK: Alfred Dunner made a different kind of pants than what they normally would make. They always made pants with a set in waistband and a set zipper. But, Alfred Dunner made a pull on pants, which involved slightly different machinery. GE: And, this was about what time period? TF: Well, my mother-in-law was still alive. She's the one who introduced them. MK: Oh, really, I didn't know that. That's interesting. GE: And not surprisingly, because Alfred Dunner was for a little more mature woman. TF: It really made a hit -- it was a big money-maker. MK: Actually, it eliminated a lot of the operators that were zipper setters. At that time before Arnold died (my husband was already in the business, so that was in the early'60's). GE: At this time they were already producing for Alfred Dunner. MK: Right. But, they still needed to keep other firms that made the tailored pants so they wouldn't lose their very skilled operators for the other garments. My father believed it and Arnold and Jugge, at the time too, that you couldn't put your eggs in one basket. Because you never know when someone goes out of this business. So they always worked for a lot of different people. Who did Uncle Paul work for? He used to come in as an inspector. TF: That's right. You'll have to ask Aunt Evie. MK: My mother's brother-in-law used to be up in Hazleton. He had been a mattress maker. That went out of business, and he started to get into the garment industry. He started working for a company, and he was a supervisor to check quality. He ended up coming into our factory because we were making things for the company he was working for. TF: Was it someone up in the coal region? MK: No, it was in New York. He was there, too. During the '70's, the manufacturing began to go to China and Mexico. GE: To China that early? MK: In the '70's the factory had trouble getting stuff made there, so they decided to diversify. They opened another factory called Penn Garment that opened in Allentown. They made very specific things that I don't remember. GE: Separate from Tama Manufacturers? MK: Yes, but the three of them were owners. My father, Jugge and Arnold were owners of that. Also they got a new piece of machinery from Sweden, called Eton. They took another building behind the factory to install this machinery. It was a conveyor system that would bring the garment from one operator to another, so you wouldn't have to have somebody moving the garments all over. TF: It was supposed to be more efficient. MK: They did that. That was kind of a big deal. There was someone who pretty much just ran the Eton production. TF: How did we get involved with Ed Posner? MK: Eddie Posner had a factory, and he lost his factory. Her family was in the garment also - Beth. We were very friendly with Ed. Arnold was very friendly with Eddie. When we opened the Penn Garment factory, which I think was on Stefko Boulevard. I think that was where it was. Eddie agreed to run it. He ran that factory for them. GE: Do you know what this factor produced? MK: Ladies pants. When Arnold died, Eddie bought that factory and paid us out over the years, until it was paid off and then it went under, because there was too much competition. So right before Arnold died, of course he didn't know he was going to die, because he died very suddenly. He decided, he and Jugge . . . Jugge decided that he wanted out of the business. TF: To retire. MK: So they decided to--.what did they have a buy-out or something? TF: Oh yeah, that's how it was set up. MK: Arnold was going to buy Jugge's portion and just own it individually. He knew it had to be completely restructured. We had a lot of people working there for the last 30-40 years that were earning a lot of money, and they were not really doing very much and had to be let go. He knew he didn't have the heart to do it and neither did Jugge. TF: Oh No. MK: They hired somebody else to restructure - someone who was a little harder and that was Sid Gross. Sid Gross had a factory that had been "Bee Line" and his factory went under. Arnold had made arrangements to meet with Sid on August 8, 1983. Sid was supposed to come to the factory, and they were going to have a meeting -- or maybe it was the 9th. In the meantime, our oldest daughter, Jill, was going to school at Drexel, and she was doing an internship at Tama Manufacturing. She was learning "time study" and she had a real interest in the factory. GE: So was she doing industrial engineering? MK: She ultimately switched to that. SC: What's her name? MK: Jill, and now it's Goodman. She married Bob Goodman. SC: And that was 1983? MK: Yes. On August 8 -- the day before he was supposed to meet with Sid, he didn't feel well and Jill took him to the hospital, and he died in the emergency room from a massive heart attack. The next morning, I get a call from Sid Gross -- an angry call, around 11:00 in the morning. "Where is Arnold? I had a meeting with him, and he's not here--" Sid was just what we needed at the factory at the time. I had to tell him, I said, "I'm sorry, he can't make it, he died." Well, Sid was devastated. So, what happened at that time was that the papers were on the lawyer's desk for Jugge to sign, and for Arnold to sign so Jugge would be bought out. They were never signed. Jugge owned the factory. Arnold wasn't there. Jugge didn't want to own the factory. Fortunately, Sid came in, and he was perfect. And then your son, Mark, came back ; he was living in California at the time. He came East to work in the factory. TF: Just to work. He didn't want to take it over. MK: It wasn't anything that Mark was really excited about. TF: No, actually when he came back he didn't go right to the factory. He'd come up and visit sometimes and the people there said why doesn't Mark come in and start working there. MK: What Jugge decided to do then, which was very good for him and the right thing to do and it helped everything else -- was to just go with Alfred Dunner. Because Alfred Dunner was doing all of their production in America. They wanted a quick delivery and good control, it was an easy garment to make. So Jugge wisely decided, we're just going to do this -- I don't really want to do this -- we're just doing to do what's easy. Well, Alfred Dunner exploded! Jugge couldn't even handle all the production there, so he started to contract out to other factories. They kept 3-4-5 other factories going -- Bernie Filler's factory. GE: Were they all local ones? MK: Yes. GE: Who were the different ones? MK: Bernie Filler, he had Blue Mountain. GE: Palmerton with Di Paolo -- he did a lot of the work. He did Chaps. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Tama Fogelman and Maxine Klein, August 7, 2013
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Maxine Kline and Tama Fogelman talk about how their father, Saul Kivert, became a tailor at sixteen years old to help support his family when Saul’s father, a tailor, had a nervous breakdown. During World War II, Saul worked at a pants factory and learned the business. After the war, Saul started Tama Manufacturing-- a tailored women’s pants company.
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LVTNT-24
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2013-08-07
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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92fb2c4e54cc134952e4fd5f1ed55d4e
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Title
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
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Stan Miller
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-07.xml
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5.4 May 22, 2014 Stan Miller, May 22, 2014 LVTNT-07 1:24:44 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Stan Miller Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 MillerStan_20140522.mp4 1.0:|37(8)|62(6)|87(8)|112(2)|131(15)|152(9)|177(15)|200(15)|225(7)|248(16)|271(15)|292(4)|311(4)|332(5)|359(6)|382(11)|403(12)|428(6)|455(2)|478(2)|495(6)|514(13)|533(8)|552(3)|571(15)|596(16)|615(5)|640(8)|663(8)|684(12)|707(18)|730(16)|757(7)|780(7)|799(7)|818(3)|843(2)|872(12)|893(5)|916(5)|933(15)|952(3)|977(2)|994(13)|1015(8)|1042(2)|1071(4)|1102(5)|1125(5)|1150(15)|1173(12)|1202(13)|1223(8)|1252(4)|1271(15)|1292(12)|1309(7)|1328(16)|1353(2)|1386(5)|1407(8)|1430(9)|1451(18)|1474(3)|1495(13)|1516(7)|1537(3)|1558(7)|1581(12)|1614(3)|1631(7)|1650(17)|1669(12)|1690(14)|1717(16)|1736(8)|1759(8)|1786(12)|1809(2)|1836(8)|1855(10)|1876(11)|1897(5)|1918(15)|1931(4) 0 https://youtu.be/fr_LeNNxwFs YouTube video 8 Introduction—Stan Miller SC: OK. Today is May 22nd. This is an interview with Stan Miller. And what I’d like to do first is just put you into place very briefly and then we'll go back to your family. So just if you could give me your full name when you were born, where you were born, where and where you grew up?
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 ; SM: Stanley Zane Miller, or May 24th, 1932. I was born in Brooklyn. What else do you want?
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 ; SC: And where did you grow up?
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 ; SM: I grew up in Brooklyn til I went through high school in Brooklyn.
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 ; SC: Do you remember that address . . . 
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 ; SM: Of the high school?
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 ; SC: Of where you were born and where you grew up.
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 ; SM: Yeah, 2047 East 37th Street. I don't know the zip. 
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 ; SC: Did they have one? Didn't have one when I was a kid.
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 ; SM: Oh, I don't think so. Yeah, I don't remember my phone number. Actually, I remember my father's phone number where he used to work. I was always calling my father. 0 95 Family History SC: And so let's talk a little bit about your family as far back as you remember, your parents, your grandparents, great grandparents.
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 ; SM: Never. I never knew my grandparents. I, I never had them. They were around, I suppose. My mother's parents, well, her mother died when she was a teenager. And I think her father ran off and left she and her two sisters. So I know nothing about her parents. 
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 ; GE: Can you tell us their names?
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 ; SM: My mother's maiden . . . my mother was Ruth Vernick was her maiden name. That is V-E-R-N-I-C-K. She had a sister Lena and another sister Ida.
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 ; SC: And and you mentioned her parents, what were their names?
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 ; SM: Don't know. OK. I don't know. 0 258 Louis Miller's Start in the Garment Industry SC: So can you talk a little bit about you mentioned the business and any of the businesses that they were involved with?
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 ; SM: Well, let's see. My father, when he came here, I think it was his first job. He started working for a gentleman named August Neilsen. Mr. Nielsen had an embroidery business and made some infant sleepwear. And, well, I'm sure you haven't used these, but remember when years ago when babies were born, they used belly bands?
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 ; SC: Yes, I read about that..
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 ; SM: And these belly bands really were just strips of cloth, strips of flannel so long and the edges weren't finished, the edges were pink. You know that this so that it doesn't ravel. I still have this pinking machine downstairs. And they made belly bands, so he started working for Mr. Nielsen.
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 ; GE: And and this is in Brooklyn?
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 ; SM: This was in New York City on Wooster Street, not far from where NYU is, OK. And he started working for Mr. Nielsen and became his right hand man. And then for sales, they hired another fellow named Irving Wollims. And as time went on, I think Mr. Nielsen . . .I think his wife became ill, and he made some arrangements with my father and Irving Wollims to take the business and they paid him, or either paid off his wife's bills, or took care of him . . . I don't remember what the deal was, but they paid him out. They kept the name. 
 ; 
 ; GE: The name was?
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 ; SM: August Nielsen Company. 0 642 1949: Miller Family Moves Business to Allentown, PA GE: Or do we want to start . . .with what came after high school. He only told us up to high school for yourself.
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 ; SC: Yeah. OK, so I should start there. Yes. Just go on with your life.
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 ; SM: I graduated high school and my parents, the business, is moving out here. I had to go to college, so I applied to Lehigh and Muhlenberg, and I went to Muhlenberg. The first year I lived in the dorm because they hadn't moved out here physically, the home. My father came out with my brother-in-law and set up the business out here in the summer of 1949 or maybe in the spring. And then we didn't move out here until the fall of 1949. So he was a weekend husband for that period of time. I don't . . and he did go into business with Mort Miller's father. Mort Miller's father, Harry, owned the building out here. 0 749 Stan Miller's Education at Muhlenberg College/Early Work Experiences SM: As for me, I know on your sheet you had something about what kind of work I did. I guess my first job must have been as every young boy, a waiter in the Catskills. I was a counselor at summer camp. I was a lifeguard when I was at Muhlenberg at the old Jewish Community Center, when it was on 6th Street. And then in my spare time or sometimes summers or what have you, I worked at the factory. And, of course, as a young guy who was young and strong, I did all the scutwork, you know, took out the garbage . . .And I think my most interesting job was I was working in the shipping room, and my first duty to the guy who ran the shipping was at two o'clock every day. I had to stop whatever I was doing, and listen to the radio, and get the results of the horse races that he was betting on, and then somehow getting the daily number. He was a gambler and that . . . I had to do that.
 ; 
 ; I was . . . I took out the garbage. I loaded the trucks. And I did find out that for years I was unloading trucks. And I discovered now that I've done it all wrong because now they offload trucks. And all these years I was screwing up. 0 922 Stan Miller Works in the United States Army Finance Department, 1952-1953 SM: Anyway, I was in the Army, they sent me to Korea. 
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 ; GE: That's about what year . . . 1952?
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 ; SM: 1953 — 22 months and 27 days later, I got out. I was in Korea and then I was in Hawaii.
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 ; SC: What was your position in the services?
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 ; SM: Finance, fortunately. I was told by a friend of a friend who was working in personnel at the time that if you want to get into Army finance, which is the cushiest job you can find, don't tell them that you were an accounting major. I said why not? He says, because then the army feels that they have to unteach you regular accounting and teach you the army way. There is the right way, the wrong way, and the army way. And they feel that if you had accounting knowledge before, it's really going to be a mess. 0 1015 Strong Partnership and New Technology in the Family Business SM: When I got out, I started working and started learning. I think one of the . . . as I mentioned before, how well we got along. It wasn't a problem where you might hear that if you want to put in a new machine, the older gentleman like the father, oh, no, no, we can't do that or not. Not with my father took just a little explaining. The first thing we put in, I think, was a conveyor belt because we had a machine that would put the garments in plastic bags that we used to put them in boxes and have to pick the boxes up. Conveyor belt . . so at first he said, no, no, we don't need a conveyor belt. We can use boxes. But once we put it in, I remember he used to stand there and smoke a cigar and watch the conveyor belt and the garments go up. It was wonderful. We got along extremely well, extremely.
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 ; SC: And this was you and your father . . . 
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 ; SM: and my brother-in-law, and we all got along extremely well. Ultimately, when my father died, it was my brother in law and I and my father's partner who was still alive, and his son. Ultimately, my father's partner died. So it was the one, the son in New York, and Walter and I in Pennsylvania. And and we we ran, we were, I think, in business for maybe seventy seven years. 0 1109 1957: Stan and Lois Meet SC: How did you meet your wife?
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 ; SM: Blind date — Cedar Crest. She was . . . strange. She had gone to some party in Philadelphia with some guy from Lehigh and one of my friends from Muhlenberg. Well, his sister was at this party. You probably know her-- Sheva Rapaport. Remember Sheva Rapoport? She was a periodontist. You know, the judge Arnold Rappoport, he is a federal judge. Well, anyway, anyway, Sheva was at this party, and she told her brother, my friend, there's this nice girl for you. He called her, didn't work out. Picked up the phone, he called me, and he says, there's this girl she's just right for you. So I went over to Cedar Crest, and I met her, and I asked her out. And she told me the first thing she said to her roommate after our little parlor date, she says, if I ever go out with him again, I'm going to have to change the way he dresses. So we met in October. We were married in June. 0 1255 Stan Miller's Children SC: Can you tell us about your children?
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 ; SM: My children. I have my oldest daughter, who was born in nineteen sixty, who is currently not married. She's living in Florida with a wonderful, wonderful guy and she's a travel agent. His occupation, which is sort of unusual. You've heard of concierge medicine. 
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 ; GE: Yes.
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 ; SM: But he's selling it, he's getting doctors to go into concierge medicine. He's establishing their practices as concierge doctors. It's really interesting.
 ; 
 ; My number two daughter was born in [19]62 and she is now director of marketing for the United States and Canada for a software company that specializes in software design for anybody fooling around with real estate. For example, Hanes underwear ; they've got facilities all over the place. That was one of them. Not Seventh Day Adventists. What's the other one? Ones with Kingdom Halls?
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 ; SC: Jehovah Witnesses.
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 ; SM: That’s it, they just signed Jehovah's Witnesses. They must have thousands of establishments, and you need this software so that you can know when to pay the taxes. If you own apartments, it's perfect. Your percentage of rentals of occupancy will. So it's all to do with with real estate as opposed to some who will have for medical or dental or something. 0 1494 Community Involvement SC: Were you and your wife active in the greater community and the Jewish community?
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 ; SM: My wife was active in ORT. 
 ; 
 ; GE: What's your wife's name?
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 ; 
 ; SM: Lois. She was active in ORT, especially when it first came to town. Is it still active? Is it still around?
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 ; GE: Not really.
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 ; SM: OK, well, it used to be. And she was president at one time. And this was all her contemporaries at that time, all the young women of the time. Other than that, she didn't get involved in the Jewish community at all. She ended up spending about six years with my youngest daughter when she was doing television. They were spending time in Hollywood, in Los Angeles --for seven, eight, nine months. I was home. Sometimes with no daughters, sometimes with one daughter who was going to Rider for a while. And so all I had was a cat and a dog. So she didn't do much with the Jewish community. Quite honestly. I guess I really, I think, wasn't active in the community center and I wasn't active at Temple Bethel. I did sing in their choir for about forty some odd years. So I guess that was my contribution. Other than that, that wasn't my thing. 0 1678 Home Addresses SC: Where did you live in Allentown after you came with your parents and all the way through?
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 ; SM: You know where Alton Park is? You go down 24th Street, you remember there was a covered bridge,
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 ; SC: Yes.
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 ; SM: All right, and go up further. And before you get to Lehigh Street, it's off to the right a little bit.The block we lived on was a block that was two blocks long. I had a real nice house. After you you come from New York where you live in a semi-detached house with grass about the size of that hassock and no property. We had this house with an adjacent lot and a big, big house, I mean, big compared to what we lived in. And it was planted trees, I planted all the shrubs, it was wonderful. I never had such a good time. I love mowing the lawn. We had a power mower then. Power mowers were sort of new at that time. And and my father loved to love to put a cigar in his mouth.And he cut the property, and he loved it. And we could look out the front door, from before there were a lot of buildings, and you could see, well, they were not mountains, you know hills in Emaus. But you could you could see green green hills. For him after living in New York and for me, it was a treat. Then they continued to live there, and after Lois and I got married, we lived one block away at Tremont Apartments. And from there we moved, we built a house on South Glenwood Street, within spitting distance of the Swain school. And my kids went to Swain school while we were there. And then when we had our third child, we needed more room. So we built here and we've been here for forty six years. I was the first one on the block. So we've been here, raised our kids here. 0 1817 Factory Machinery SM: I also have -it's a toy- not a toy - this is my father's original cutting machine, you've seen factories with the cutting machines that are electric.
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 ; SC: Yes.
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 ; GE: Yes.
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 ; SM: Ibis is his cutting machine, it's still as sharp as can be, and the way it worked is, they had a table with a slot cut in it and the slot was shielded by metal so you couldn't cut the wood and you ran this up and down up and down in the slot and you moved the fabric around. To cut out an arm hole you'd just keep going and you'd move this around. And his handwriting says 1918, on here. 0 1946 Louis Miller's Pinless Diapers SM: Matter of fact, my oldest sister, when she was an infant, I don't know how it happened but she was stuck with a pin, and she ended up with this serious infection, which she ultimately got over. And my father was so angry about using pins that he created,- it didn't go anywhere- he created - back then they called it the pinless diaper. And he had the diaper and it had ties as I recall it, where you would be able to tie it onto the child as snugly as possible. I still have a diaper downstairs somewhere. And he patented it, but it went nowhere.
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 ; GE: Right. If only he'd tweaked it a little bit to become the disposable diaper or...
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 ; SC: Yeah, or tabs or snaps.
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 ; SM: Well, or Velcro.
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 ; SC: Or Velcro, yeah, oh my gosh. 0 2010 Manufacturers versus Contractors SM: So are we talking about the um?
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 ; GE: So my recollection is, we were talking about the business, and if you wanted to maybe start by saying a little bit how you see your manufacturers, compared to maybe, the other businesses or contractors. 
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 ; SM: We manufactured as opposed to most of the people in the needle trades here in town. As big as they were, they were contractors. There's nothing wrong with that, their product strictly was labor. They supplied the labor and the thread, and paid the rent, and all they did was take in the fabric. Sometimes they cut it, sometimes it came in already cut. They sewed it up, according to specifications, finished it, packaged it, whatever and sent it back to whoever was handling it. And that's all they had to do, so their job basically was pay the labor and they took care of um, - they had unions, paid the rent, and so on. And that's it. As opposed to our operation which I guess you could call to some extent, vertical. We didn't make the fabric but we had to design the garments, fit them into certain price ranges and then purchase the fabric with contracts and what not. 0 2777 Discussion on Vertical Integration SC: I was just thinking, with the vertical integration you always think of vertical integration as highly capitalized industries, but it was possible in the garment industry, not to be like the old Lowell [mills] factories that were totally vertically integrated- you could get in and out fairly quickly, even though you had to have more capital and contractors.
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 ; SM: Yeah, well we were I guess the true vertical integration is starting from...
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 ; SC: Raw material.
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 ; SM: Raw materials to sales. We skipped the raw materials. We did not make the fabric, we didn't knit it, we purchased the fabric. From then on,
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 ; GE: You were vertically integrated.
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 ; SM: It was a vertical operation because we did the styling, and the creating the samples, the pricing the whole business, the stocking, the billing, getting printed, the whole thing and
 ; as you said, you needed capital for that, so you needed good relations with the bank, or with whatever bank you're going to deal with. 0 3099 Manufacturing in the '70s: Expansion, Lawsuits, and Downsizing SM: I have to tell you one story.
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 ; GE: Sure.
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 ; SM: When we bought our new building,
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 ; GE: And this was about when?
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 ; SM: This was in the 70's, and at the time, the building was certainly worth the price. It was a great deal for a bank for a mortgage. For whatever reason, I don't remember, there was no mortgage money around. I guess banks have certain amounts in their portfolios that they could put into mortgages and whatnot there was none, and we were just dying. We were trying every bank in town, they would say, normally we would take a baseball bat and keep you here to make the deal, but they had no money. And we had a French poodle at the time, and the French poodle had an accident in the bedroom. And I got up at night, not knowing, go to the bathroom, and I stepped in it. Which is sort of, you know, well, funny experience, I told my mother, the next day I told my mother this, and she said, you're going to get your mortgage, and I said why, and she says, it's an old tale, that if you step in shit, something good is going to happen to you. Don't you think, the next day--
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 ; GE: Your mother was right!
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 ; SM: We got a call that they- I think it was union bank at the time -was going to take the mortgage. 0 3674 Max Charcov's Used Machines SM: Fellow named Max Charcov. Max Charcov's daughter married Roland Sigal. Sigal had a building by Sacred Heart Hospital where he had dress shops. I don't remember the names of the dress shops but he was very successful. And he was very philanthropic. And Max, Max was a real old slovenly Jewish fella, and he would pedal machines.
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 ; He would buy anybody's machine, sewing machine, for 50 bucks and would um,- he would fix them up, like a used car's fixed up. How would he fix them up, he'd take a rag, he dusted it off, had no idea whether the machine worked. But it's like new, he said. And he would then sell the machine for $100 or whatever. If you needed a used machine, Max had it. He never had a building, he had various garages around town where he would store the machines. He had a driver, because he couldn't drive anymore. He would run, he had the machines, and he had nothing on paper. He knew every machine that he had ; he had hundreds of machines. And they were all used and when it was time, you needed a machine, you call Charcov if you want to get a used machine. And sometimes he would buy our machines, and I remember he would come in and we would sell him 2 or 3 machines, and he would owe us three or four hundred dollars, and he would take his checkbook and he would give it to me. He says write out a check. He has no remittance- no um, check stubs, no check register, so I write out a check to August Nielsen for three hundred dollars. I give it to Max to sign, and I take the check and that's good. I don't know who kept his books. I don't know if he ever paid income tax but he was a guy that- he was a fixture in the business. 0 3822 Naming the Business SC: [H]ow did you choose the name of Nielsen?
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 ; SM: We didn't.
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 ; SC: Oh it was.
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 ; SM: That was the gentleman that my father went to work for in the early 1890s or early 1900s. His name was August F Nielsen. And they ultimately made the company incorporated, and I don't remember the terms. But I know that my father took over the business either because his wife was sick, and he was going to die, and they would support the wife until she died, or some kind of arrangement like that. They would pay him off or pay him in some way. I don't remember [details] but it was an interesting setup. But that name was there and no point in changing it ; it was unique. 0 3903 The End of the Business GE: Can you share with us a little bit, let's say the last ten years as it was beginning to a little ·bit unwind and slowdown for you
 ; 
 ; SM: Well during that time we knew the handwriting was on the wall because we were having trouble competing with folks, the other big manufacturers who then they ended up switching and manufacturing their stuff not in their plants down south, but in the Caribbean. There was this plan 807-- it was some kind of bill or something where goods can be made in the Caribbean, that made Guatemala and Haiti and Dominican Republic come into the United States with no duty as long as a certain percentage of the cost of the garment was done in the United States. I don't know what the percentage was, but it was pretty small. So, goods were sent uncut down to the Caribbean, it was cut, it was sewn, everything was done to it and it was sent back to the United States, and maybe we put a plastic bag over the garment and put a hang tag on which amounted to the proper percentage of labor. Something ridiculous and their costs were -- I may have said this before--their costs were five dollars a day. They were paying five dollars a day and this was in the 90's and the late 80's where we were paying five dollars an hour. And that was good, plus vacations and blue cross and blue shield, and holidays and all this other garbage and taxes and unemployment. They were paying just five dollars a day and there's no way you can compete with that. Plus these-- our competitors-- had the better licenses, so we were making an inferior garment for lack of a better term, or a less desirable garment. 0 4713 Stan Miller's Values SC: Okay, so my other question is what do you value most in life?
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 ; SM: What do I value most in life? I suppose good health and the health of my family. I can't think of much else that's important and ultimately you die with a good name. Because they never caught me.
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 ; GE: Right and as you say you checked it out on the internet.
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 ; SM: Yeah there was nothing bad, although the NSA has been checking my computers. I never...
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 ; GE: They're checking everybody's
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 ; SC: That's the new democracy, we all get checked.
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 ; SM: Well, you've got these crazies in the world.
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 ; SC: Yeah I know,
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 ; SM: You wonder, right now everybody says oh don't check me you're invading my privacy. As soon as we have another 9/11- why didn't you know about these people!? So there's no happy medium there. 0 4774 Stan Miller: Performer SC: And what makes you feel the most creative, artistic, I mean in the broadest sense of creative or maybe a sense of completion in your life?
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 ; SM: In my life, other than being very proud of your three kids, me, I like to sing. So I was in the Temple choir for about forty years. We ended up, my family ended up somehow getting involved in theater, so besides my daughter, my wife became a manager and I was a theater um. I did shows at Cedar Crest, Muhlenberg, at Civic, and Pennsylvania Playhouse ; I did them all over in the [area].
 ; 
 ; SC: You acted?
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 ; SM: Yeah, so I did that. I found we all agreed, this group that we-- this last group that we were with-- that one of the greatest joys in life, the biggest kick that we would get is to be in a room full of people and make them laugh. And that's what we were doing, we were doing murder mysteries. Believe me they were funny, and we were good, because we handled- it's a different procedure than being on a proscenium stage because on a proscenium stage there's an invisible wall between the actors and the audience. There's no ad-libbing to speak of, you do your thing, when you do dinner theater or murder mysteries. You are this close to them, and some of the people shoot off their mouths. 0 MovingImage Stan Miller talks about how his father, a young immigrant, got started in manufacturing children’s pajamas in New York City, and later moved the production to Allentown. The sales office of the company remained in New York and was run by Stan’s father’s partner. When Stan and his family moved to Allentown, Stan was 17 years old and would soon start college. Stan attended Muhlenberg College, majoring in Accounting and Economics. After college and the service, Stan and his brother-in-law entered the family business. As did the son of Stan’s father’s partner. Stan is very proud that the business operated harmoniously among the partners during its more than seventy-five years in business. The firm closed in 1994, due to stiff competition from globalization. Interview with Stan Miller, May 22, 2014 GAIL EISENBERG: Today is May 22nd. STAN MILLER: May 22nd? SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Yes SM: Then I put the wrong date down.. SC: OK. Today is May 22nd. This is an interview with Stan Miller. And what I'd like to do first is just put you into place very briefly and then we'll go back to your family. So just if you could give me your full name when you were born, where you were born, where and where you grew up? SM: Stanley Zane Miller, or May 24th, 1932. I was born in Brooklyn. What else do you want? SC: And where did you grow up? SM: I grew up in Brooklyn til I went through high school in Brooklyn. SC: Do you remember that address . . . SM: Of the high school? SC: Of where you were born and where you grew up. SM: Yeah, 2047 East 37th Street. I don't know the zip. SC: Did they have one? Didn't have one when I was a kid. SM: Oh, I don't think so. Yeah, I don't remember my phone number. Actually, I remember my father's phone number where he used to work. I was always calling my father. SC: Yeah. Oh, course. So you lived there until you were an adult and you went to high school there. SM: Until I was 17, then finished high school. And at that time my family moved to Allentown. SC: Where did you go to high school? SM: James Madison High School in Brooklyn. SC: And so let's talk a little bit about your family as far back as you remember, your parents, your grandparents, great grandparents. SM: Never. I never knew my grandparents. I, I never had them. They were around, I suppose. My mother's parents, well, her mother died when she was a teenager. And I think her father ran off and left she and her two sisters. So I know nothing about her parents. GE: Can you tell us their names? SM: My mother's maiden . . . my mother was Ruth Vernick was her maiden name. That is V-E-R-N-I-C-K. She had a sister Lena and another sister Ida. SC: And and you mentioned her parents, what were their names? SM: Don't know. OK. I don't know. GE: So the mother died young? SM: Well, I think when my my mother was a teenager -- 14, 15, or 16. SC: What did they live? In the United States? SM: I think in New Jersey. My mother was born in the United States. Where her parents are from, whether they were born here or not, I don't know. I think there's some Russian in my mother's family. As far as my father, again, his parents were left in Poland. He's one of seven children. GE: And what was your father's name? SM: Louis -- L-O-U-I-S Miller. Of the seven, one brother left and went to Sweden, and he settled there and had raised a big family. My father and three other brothers and a sister came to the United States, and one sister stayed there and the Germans got her. SC: Was this in the 1920s that they came? SM: My father came here something like 1910 or 1911. SC: OK, so it was older. SM: He was maybe 15, 16, 17 years old. SC: Yeah. And your mother's family, do you know when they came? SM: I have no idea just because I think they may even have been born here, I don't know. SC: And if we know their names, we could actually look them up on the ancestry. We find anything, we'll let you know. Oh, yeah, I have everything ancestry. So can you talk a little bit about you mentioned the business and any of the businesses that they were involved with? SM: Well, let's see. My father, when he came here, I think it was his first job. He started working for a gentleman named August Neilsen. Mr. Nielsen had an embroidery business and made some infant sleepwear. And, well, I'm sure you haven't used these, but remember when years ago when babies were born, they used belly bands? SC: Yes, I read about that.. SM: And these belly bands really were just strips of cloth, strips of flannel so long and the edges weren't finished, the edges were pink. You know that this so that it doesn't ravel. I still have this pinking machine downstairs. And they made belly bands, so he started working for Mr. Nielsen. GE: And and this is in Brooklyn? SM: This was in New York City on Wooster Street, not far from where NYU is, OK. And he started working for Mr. Nielsen and became his right hand man. And then for sales, they hired another fellow named Irving Wollims. And as time went on, I think Mr. Nielsen . . .I think his wife became ill, and he made some arrangements with my father and Irving Wollims to take the business and they paid him, or either paid off his wife's bills, or took care of him . . . I don't remember what the deal was, but they paid him out. They kept the name. GE: The name was? SM: August Nielsen Company. Okay. GE: And August Nielsen, was he Jewish? SM: No, he was German. SC: That was my question. I wondered if he was German or if he was Scandinavian because of a family member going to Sweden. SM: No, no, nothing to do with the other. Oh, that was my father's brother. SC: OK . . . Right. I realize that. But I wondered if there was any connection there. SM: They took over and they they ran the business. They started making more children's sleepwear, baby's gowns and kimonos and sleeping bags, things like that for them. GE: Just so that I know . . . Louis and what was the other man's name? SM: Irving Wollims. W o l l i m s -- was he Jewish? SM: Yeah. GE: OK, and so Irving Wollims was more sales and your dad is more the production or the operations. The two of them then bought out ultimately the . . .. SM: In some arrangement, I don't remember what it was, and they became partners, and they stayed partners until they died. It was a really a very interesting and pleasant relationship. And it went on because Irving Wollim's son went into the sales and took over the sales, and my father's son, which is me, and one son-in-law, ended up in the production. I would have to say that I think it's it's more the exception than the rule that family members get along, and we got along. I mean, I know of so many. . . GE: Can you tell me, I'm sorry, your brother in law's name? SM: Walter Ostrow -- O-S-T-R-O-W. GE: So you and Walter really did the production. SM: Yeah, yeah, down the line. SC: So, do you have any other stories about when your family entered business any of the connections with business? Was this pretty much a straight line? SM: And so it just happened that my father got this job. He . . . I don't think he knew anything about the garment business. Well, you know, as far as I know. I don't know what his father was. I don't know that. I do know that when he was younger, he was an itinerant cantor in Poland, and he used to go around and sing and do whatever services until, I think one time he told a story that he used to sleep in somebody's barn. One time at one place, and it was dark, and he lit a match, and he dropped it. The place burned. He ran like hell. It was another village and they never found him. GE: Right. When your father came to this country, how old was he about? SM: I'm guessing around 17ish. And oddly enough, as time went on, my father and his partner were running the business, and he ended up marrying my mother who was working for him. SC: Do you know what she did? SM: No, I don't know. I don't know. Thinking back, I can't remember her ever sewing much. I mean, she with a needle and thread, but we never had a machine at home. And I don't know what she did there, but he met her there and he married her. SC: So now we can get back to you a little bit more about you, unless you have any more questions. GE: No, no, that's good. SC: So how did you know . . .Can you talk a little bit more about where you went from that moment when you started the business, more of your personal life, what you did? Were you involved at all in the greater community or the Jewish community? GE: Or do we want to start . . .with what came after high school. He only told us up to high school for yourself. SC: Yeah. OK, so I should start there. Yes. Just go on with your life. SM: I graduated high school and my parents, the business, is moving out here. I had to go to college, so I applied to Lehigh and Muhlenberg, and I went to Muhlenberg. The first year I lived in the dorm because they hadn't moved out here physically, the home. My father came out with my brother-in-law and set up the business out here in the summer of 1949 or maybe in the spring. And then we didn't move out here until the fall of 1949. So he was a weekend husband for that period of time. I don't . . and he did go into business with Mort Miller's father. Mort Miller's father, Harry, owned the building out here. SC: Where was the building? SM: In Fountain Hill on Seneca Street. And I think it's now a home for elderly people, I think. Anyway, Harry had the building, and I think he had lots of machines, and he was making similar garments so they went into business. Ultimately, Harry had to get out because he had some kind of skin disease, and he ended up in El Paso 11 months out of the year. So so it ended up that the business was running in Fountain Hill. As for me, I know on your sheet you had something about what kind of work I did. I guess my first job must have been as every young boy, a waiter in the Catskills. I was a counselor at summer camp. I was a lifeguard when I was at Muhlenberg at the old Jewish Community Center, when it was on 6th Street. And then in my spare time or sometimes summers or what have you, I worked at the factory. And, of course, as a young guy who was young and strong, I did all the scutwork, you know, took out the garbage . . .And I think my most interesting job was I was working in the shipping room, and my first duty to the guy who ran the shipping was at two o'clock every day. I had to stop whatever I was doing, and listen to the radio, and get the results of the horse races that he was betting on, and then somehow getting the daily number. He was a gambler and that . . . I had to do that. I was . . . I took out the garbage. I loaded the trucks. And I did find out that for years I was unloading trucks. And I discovered now that I've done it all wrong because now they offload trucks. And all these years I was screwing up. Oh, am I suppposed to look . . . SC: That's why I moved over to try to get you to look over here. SM: OK. SC: Just because if we would use this, it's better to have . . . SM: You should have one of those red lights. SC: So that's fascinating. SM: So I went to Muhlenberg and worked in summers either as a counselor or at the factory. And then I was drafted. SC: What did you major in at Muhlenberg? SM: In economics . . . economics and accounting. And it really wasn't much of a course somehow or other. I found that it really didn't, in retrospect, it didn't do much good except for the accounting. The Money and Banking and Corporation Finance. And I think I did very poorly in one of them because I discovered the Municipal Opera Company here in town. Did you ever see any of their shows? I guess I was a junior at Muhlenberg, and I discovered the opera company. I tried out and I ended up in some of their shows, and I loved it so much I didn't do anything except for the rehearsal. It was it was really a treat. Anyway, I was in the Army, they sent me to Korea. GE: That's about what year . . . 1952? SM: 1953 -- 22 months and 27 days later, I got out. I was in Korea and then I was in Hawaii. SC: What was your position in the services? SM: Finance, fortunately. I was told by a friend of a friend who was working in personnel at the time that if you want to get into Army finance, which is the cushiest job you can find, don't tell them that you were an accounting major. I said why not? He says, because then the army feels that they have to unteach you regular accounting and teach you the army way. There is the right way, the wrong way, and the army way. And they feel that if you had accounting knowledge before, it's really going to be a mess. So he says, tell them you were an economics major, which I told them, and I got into finance, which was lucky. I stayed out of trouble. So I was in Korea for about nine months. And then they sent the entire division to Hawaii to go back to Schofield Barracks. And I was there for about nine months. And I got out. When I got out, I started working and started learning. I think one of the . . . as I mentioned before, how well we got along. It wasn't a problem where you might hear that if you want to put in a new machine, the older gentleman like the father, oh, no, no, we can't do that or not. Not with my father took just a little explaining. The first thing we put in, I think, was a conveyor belt because we had a machine that would put the garments in plastic bags that we used to put them in boxes and have to pick the boxes up. Conveyor belt . . so at first he said, no, no, we don't need a conveyor belt. We can use boxes. But once we put it in, I remember he used to stand there and smoke a cigar and watch the conveyor belt and the garments go up. It was wonderful. We got along extremely well, extremely. SC: And this was you and your father . . . SM: and my brother-in-law, and we all got along extremely well. Ultimately, when my father died, it was my brother in law and I and my father's partner who was still alive, and his son. Ultimately, my father's partner died. So it was the one, the son in New York, and Walter and I in Pennsylvania. And and we we ran, we were, I think, in business for maybe seventy seven years. GE: Yeah. Wow. SM: Long time. GE: Yeah. Wow. Seventy seven years. SM: I think it was seventy seven years. SC: How did you meet your wife? SM: Blind date -- Cedar Crest. She was . . . strange. She had gone to some party in Philadelphia with some guy from Lehigh and one of my friends from Muhlenberg. Well, his sister was at this party. You probably know her-- Sheva Rapaport. Remember Sheva Rapoport? She was a periodontist. You know, the judge Arnold Rappoport, he is a federal judge. Well, anyway, anyway, Sheva was at this party, and she told her brother, my friend, there's this nice girl for you. He called her, didn't work out. Picked up the phone, he called me, and he says, there's this girl she's just right for you. So I went over to Cedar Crest, and I met her, and I asked her out. And she told me the first thing she said to her roommate after our little parlor date, she says, if I ever go out with him again, I'm going to have to change the way he dresses. So we met in October. We were married in June. SC: What year was that? SM: Nineteen . . . met in fifty seven. And we were married in June, fifty eight. So this June will be fifty six years. At this point, she doesn't speak, she doesn't understand, she doesn't walk, she doesn't do anything but she still smiles. I can get her to smile. She still knows who I am. I go up there and feed her every day and get her to laugh. She doesn't laugh-- you know the voice doesn't work, but still . . .but she still smiles, laughs. And I think she still recognizes my children. The miracle of cell phones. This has the Facetime on it, and I hold it up for her and she sees any one of the kids and they sing to her or they talk to her and . . . it works out. It works out. I sing to her and that's. SC: Can you tell us about your children? SM: My children. I have my oldest daughter, who was born in nineteen sixty, who is currently not married. She's living in Florida with a wonderful, wonderful guy and she's a travel agent. His occupation, which is sort of unusual. You've heard of concierge medicine. GE: Yes. SM: But he's selling it, he's getting doctors to go into concierge medicine. He's establishing their practices as concierge doctors. It's really interesting. My number two daughter was born in [19]62 and she is now director of marketing for the United States and Canada for a software company that specializes in software design for anybody fooling around with real estate. For example, Hanes underwear ; they've got facilities all over the place. That was one of them. Not Seventh Day Adventists. What's the other one? Ones with Kingdom Halls? SC: Jehovah Witnesses. SM: That's it, they just signed Jehovah's Witnesses. They must have thousands of establishments, and you need this software so that you can know when to pay the taxes. If you own apartments, it's perfect. Your percentage of rentals of occupancy will. So it's all to do with with real estate as opposed to some who will have for medical or dental or something. And so my third daughter is she's a lawyer, but she isn't practicing. She's currently doing voices for Doc McStuffins and on television and Henry Hugglemonster and Clifford and what else. Wow! Wow! Wubbzy and she did all that. She was on on NBC for six years with Nell Carter back in the 80s. So she had, she had a nice a nice career, and then she went to law school, and she didn't like practicing law. Just just didn't like it. She went back back to California and having her her fun. SC: Did any of them have any interest in the business? SM: No, no. My oldest daughter, she went down to Florida with her boyfriend, which didn't last, and then she ended up staying there because she started working and going to school, and her grandparents lived there. So she, she had no interest. My second daughter and she had none . . . none of them had any interest. Of course, they all ended up working there during summers. And I must have employed half of the young people in Allentown beside my kids. We always need people in the summer. Alan Silverman, his son. Max Davison's boy . . . any of the friends of my daughters, you know, worked in the shipping room or in our testing lab. And so we employed a lot of the young boys around here. And we also clothed most of the babies in Allentown, our contemporaries. Somebody had a baby, they need a layette. SC: Were you and your wife active in the greater community and the Jewish community? SM: My wife was active in ORT. GE: What's your wife's name? SM: Lois. She was active in ORT, especially when it first came to town. Is it still active? Is it still around? GE: Not really. SM: OK, well, it used to be. And she was president at one time. And this was all her contemporaries at that time, all the young women of the time. Other than that, she didn't get involved in the Jewish community at all. She ended up spending about six years with my youngest daughter when she was doing television. They were spending time in Hollywood, in Los Angeles --for seven, eight, nine months. I was home. Sometimes with no daughters, sometimes with one daughter who was going to Rider for a while. And so all I had was a cat and a dog. So she didn't do much with the Jewish community. Quite honestly. I guess I really, I think, wasn't active in the community center and I wasn't active at Temple Bethel. I did sing in their choir for about forty some odd years. So I guess that was my contribution. Other than that, that wasn't my thing. SC: Were you active in the business community, in the garment industry's trades? SM: Well, we did belong to the . . there was an organization that was founded for needle trades with the Atlantic, something or other . . . I don't remember what it was. We used to go to the meetings and have the discussions and so on. But no, I wasn't that guy. I didn't do that. SC: Was that Arnold Delin's? SM: Yes, there you go, there you go. I found that I had certain problems. I think when I first came to town, when I was married, they started with a be in the Jewish Federation or something and here is some people to call for contributions. I could not, I could not do it. It wasn't me. And I kept putting it off. But gradually I'm not going to do this. And I just didn't get involved in the building fund for the synagogue or the community center. It just wasn't my cup of tea. SC: You have to be true to yourself. SM: So my recreation was singing in the choir, and I did a lot of theater in town. And that was my thing. SC: Where did you live in Allentown after you came with your parents and all the way through? SM: You know where Alton Park is? You go down 24th Street, you remember there was a covered bridge, SC: Yes. SM: All right, and go up further. And before you get to Lehigh Street, it's off to the right a little bit.The block we lived on was a block that was two blocks long. I had a real nice house. After you you come from New York where you live in a semi-detached house with grass about the size of that hassock and no property. We had this house with an adjacent lot and a big, big house, I mean, big compared to what we lived in. And it was planted trees, I planted all the shrubs, it was wonderful. I never had such a good time. I love mowing the lawn. We had a power mower then. Power mowers were sort of new at that time. And and my father loved to love to put a cigar in his mouth.And he cut the property, and he loved it. And we could look out the front door, from before there were a lot of buildings, and you could see, well, they were not mountains, you know hills in Emaus. But you could you could see green green hills. For him after living in New York and for me, it was a treat. Then they continued to live there, and after Lois and I got married, we lived one block away at Tremont Apartments. And from there we moved, we built a house on South Glenwood Street, within spitting distance of the Swain school. And my kids went to Swain school while we were there. And then when we had our third child, we needed more room. So we built here and we've been here for forty six years. I was the first one on the block. So we've been here, raised our kids here. SC: Okay, It's going to stop now. SM: I also have -it's a toy- not a toy - this is my father's original cutting machine, you've seen factories with the cutting machines that are electric. SC: Yes. GE: Yes. SM: Ibis is his cutting machine, it's still as sharp as can be, and the way it worked is, they had a table with a slot cut in it and the slot was shielded by metal so you couldn't cut the wood and you ran this up and down up and down in the slot and you moved the fabric around. To cut out an arm hole you'd just keep going and you'd move this around. And his handwriting says 1918, on here. SC: I think cutting with a really good pair of scissors was much easier for me when I used to sew. I would have killed myself on something like that. SM: I have one other piece of equipment downstairs, I'm not going to get it ; it's too heavy. It's a pinking machine. GE: And what is a Pinking machine? SM: You know what pinking is, when you edge the cloth with little jagged edges so it doesn't fray as easily. GE: Oh, okay. SM: Back then they used belly bands for newborns to hold in the umbilical cord, and my father manufactured belly bauds big strips of cloth and they ran it through the pinking machine so that it had an edge and would sell belly bands. You put it around the child with a safety pin, and stick the child and the child gets an infection- you know, that was part of the problem back then. SC: Although they are going back evidently- one of my friend's daughters just had a baby and they are going back to bands and contraptions to hold the belly in and push the uterus in so it goes back. GE: For the woman... SC: Right, not for the baby. GE: Interesting, I never heard of that. SM: Matter of fact, my oldest sister, when she was an infant, I don't know how it happened but she was stuck with a pin, and she ended up with this serious infection, which she ultimately got over. And my father was so angry about using pins that he created,- it didn't go anywhere- he created - back then they called it the pinless diaper. And he had the diaper and it had ties as I recall it, where you would be able to tie it onto the child as snugly as possible. I still have a diaper downstairs somewhere. And he patented it, but it went nowhere GE: Right. If only he'd tweaked it a little bit to become the disposable diaper or... SC: Yeah, or tabs or snaps. SM: Well, or Velcro. SC: Or Velcro, yeah, oh my gosh. SC: Today is June 17 2014. Interview with Stan Miller. SM: So are we talking about the um? GE: So my recollection is, we were talking about the business, and if you wanted to maybe start by saying a little bit how you see your manufacturers, compared to maybe, the other businesses or contractors. · SM: We manufactured as opposed to most of the people in the needle trades here in town. As big as they were, they were contractors. There's nothing wrong with that, their product strictly was labor. They supplied the labor and the thread, and paid the rent, and all they did was take in the fabric. Sometimes they cut it, sometimes it came in already cut. They sewed it up, according to specifications, finished it, packaged it, whatever and sent it back to whoever was handling it. And that's all they had to do, so their job basically was pay the labor and they took care of um, - they had unions, paid the rent, and so on. And that's it. As opposed to our operation which I guess you could call to some extent, vertical. We didn't make the fabric but we had to design the garments, fit them into certain price ranges and then purchase the fabric with contracts and what not. And have the fabric, cut it, sometimes you'd cut it to order. Sometimes you'd cut if for spec. or you'd cut five hundred dozen to order and you'd cut another two hundred dozen for spec. and we then had to pay for the fabric, pay for the labor and the overhead, pay for the buttons and the bows, and the zippers and whatever else goes on it, and then sell it. And that sometimes is harder or easier depending- you may sell it easier if you have the order and you cut it to order. Otherwise you have stock, and you have to carry the stock then once you sell it you wait for your money, not like a contractor who invariably gets their money within a very short time. Labor is the first thing you pay, so that meant we had to have working capital. A lot of working capital. More than the regular contractor, because he could turn his money over in a couple of weeks, whereas we- quite a few months. And then of course you would sell it to a K-mart or a Sears. Or a Hess, and now you have to wait for your money. GE: Right, and you typically were paid from then, after it was sold, or after the season. SM: Oh yeah, after they received it, after they received it, they paid whatever the terms were. At thirty, or discount, whatever terms were agreed upon. And prior to getting the money we had to have enough cash to pay for the fabric, pay for the labor, pay for the trimmings, pay for overhead, and wait. GE: Right. GE: What do you see as being the advantages of your operation? You already told us a little bit about the advantages of theirs, but especially of yours, - in other words, what do you see as being the strengths or advantages of your operation, being vertically integrated? SM: Well, I suppose there are more opportunities, maybe to make more money because you're marking up everything but on the other hand you've got interest, and... GE: More risks. SM: Risk, and worry, ah, that was the business that we had. GE: And, if I'm understanding correctly somewhat, that's just the way your father had started it, and therefore you continued. SM: Yeah. GE: Okay, as opposed to a strategic decision saying this would be the best way. SM: We could have, toward the end we stopped manufacturing, the last year or so, and we were contractors. Because we weren't selling our goods anymore. And then of course, to sell the goods, you had competition. You had competition from some of the bigger manufacturers down south who had bigger names, bigger plants, they were able to get desirable licenses, Superman licenses, as opposed to some cartoon character that wasn't very popular. We had major league baseball, we did very well with that. We had striped fabric and we would put on a screen- a decal- made that to order.- but others had more desirable -whatever was popular at the time- I think it was Mickey Mouse, and we couldn't compete with these people. And these people were making it in the Caribbean, where it was so much cheaper so that's why we went out of business, we just couldn't compete. Have desirable licenses, the garment that we would sell for fifty dollars a dozen, they'd be selling it for forty because it cost them less. GE: Right. SM: And it was nicer than ours because they had the nicer cartoon character on it. There was no competing with them. GE: After a while they just- right. SM: We lost out in the early nineties, because we just couldn't compete with the Caribbean. GE: And so you were in business until around-? SM: 1994. GE: Okay, so prior to that, through the eighties you were still- SM: We were perking along, we did very well, and were very happy. I raised three children, my brother in law raised two, my partners raised three. I mean -we did very well and were very comfortable. Compared to some of the other people in town we weren't as successful. Some of the people in town they made a lot of money whether they were contractors, or manufacturers, there were a few manufacturers and it was a good business back then, and we all did reasonably well. We worked hard, I was there six days a week, and we ran a night shift, and that was me. -Just, never got home- that was... I was young, so I could do it. GE: Right, great, can you tell me a little bit about, the sales and marketing end that was done, in other words, one thing I'm curious- is, was it your own sales force or did you have sales reps, and then also about the brand, did you - you told us about licensing, but was there anything where you- where you had- your brand became known to the public? SM: We had our own sales force. It was headed by my partner who was the son of my father's partner. And he had helped in the office- we had an office in New York. On 34th Street, we were right in the district. And we had some salesmen on the road. Some reps for us, they may have been carrying other things, I don't know, but, um we had a guy in Pittsburgh, another guy down South and so on. We had our brand, it was Style by Nielsen, it was the brand. I can't remember some of the other competing brands but that was our name, but what was required quite often was to put the big retailers tag in there. So garments that were made for JC Penney didn't have anything about Nielsen. We had JC Penny's label in there ; we put in labels from Montgomery Ward, um, who else did we put labels for? I don't recall. GE: Sears, probably SM: Well yeah, and we put the hang tags on, and um, what was I thinking of? Well, that thought just went by me - so we did for them, - and we also ended up pre pricing them, that was the beginning of the UPC whatever you call those. GE: Yes, UPC codes. SM: Well we had to get pinning machines. We used to pin it on the garment and pre-priced everything, or else pre price them with stickers. If the garment was in a plastic bag, sometimes put the sticker on the front of them. See, you did almost everything. GE: Right. SM: So our brand, it was just a brand, it was known, matter of fact, many years ago I ran into someone that I knew in the army, when I was in Hawaii and hadn't seen this person for many many years since then. And we're talking about our lives and she told me that when her kids were little she remembers going into the store and buying garments made by Nielsen. Little did she know that-- GE: So therefore it was even known by the public, in other words people at smaller stores - SM: Yeah, oh yeah, we sold to Hess and we sold to the big chains, Walmart, and over the years, it was some of the smaller department store chains, there was- I can't even remember the names any more, in fact, they probably don't exist! And to specialty shops, and we did, I don't remember the numbers anymore, did we do one or two million dollars a year back then in volume, I don't remember. But we did very well over the years and were very happy. GE: Right, besides obviously the main way that you sold and communicated was that you had this sales force, besides that, was there any kind of advertising that was involved? SM: No. We didn't really advertise, it was to sell the stuff was really the contact between our salesmen with the samples, the sample lines. GE: Okay and the buyers in the stores. SM: And their contacts, the buyers, or if they went on the road and stopped in different places or the buyers came into the showroom. Usually the big companies would come to New York, but some of the others, for example K-mart I think was in Royal Oak, Michigan, their headquarters, we used to send people out there. And Montgomery Ward they either came to New York, might have been in Chicago. SC: Might have been SM: So it was -you- went where- advertising was absolutely nothing - GE: Was absolutely- SM: We didn't do a thing with it, it wasn't necessary, the people that we were working with were buying the garment. They knew us, or they got to know us, and advertising just wasn't in the cards. It's a good thing, it would have been more aggravating. GE: Was there any other- can you think of any other questions in regards to the... SC: The business. GE: And then I will have you share with us, a little bit about the demise, a little bit about the last few years. SC: I was just thinking, with the vertical integration you always think of vertical integration as highly capitalized industries, but it was possible in the garment industry, not to be like the old Lowell [mills] factories that were totally vertically integrated- you could get in and out fairly quickly, even though you had to have more capital and contractors. SM: Yeah, well we were I guess the true vertical integration is starting from... SC: Raw material. SM: Raw materials to sales. We skipped the raw materials. We did not make the fabric, we didn't knit it, we purchased the fabric. From then on, GE: You were vertically integrated. SM: It was a vertical operation because we did the styling, and the creating the samples, the pricing the whole business, the stocking, the billing, getting printed, the whole thing and as you said, you needed capital for that, so you needed good relations with the bank, or with whatever bank you're going to deal with. SC: I've heard that Philadelphia was, had many places that were vertically integrated but out here, where there are a lot of, in the Allentown, Lehigh Valley area-- SM: I'll tell you, one that I know of was Sondra Manufacturing, the Kaplans. Do you know them? GE: Tell me- say their names. SM: Stanley Kaplan, Morris Kaplan was the father. GE: Are any of them still here? SM: Yeah. GE: Is that the name? SC: We should talk to them SM: Stanley well, the Kaplan's had- GE: That name is familiar, Stan Kaplan, but I don't think we've... SM: Stan and Elaine Kaplan, they were doing real estate after a while. GE: And they still live here? SM: Yeah, but I think they are going to be staying in Florida but I think they are in town this summer. They live down toward Emmaus somewhere. GE: And they were all- what was the name, Sondra? SM: Sondra, S-0-N-D-R-A. It was a family. They were very similar to ours really, their father had a partner in New York, they had two daughters and a son, both sons in law were in the business, the son was in the business, they I think were more vertical. I think they knitted the fabric. SC: Okay. SM: And then they manufactured it, I do believe. I'm not sure, I'm trying to think, was there anybody else in town. GE: The other manufacturers, am I correct that the main place where they deviated from you was that many of them outsourced the sewing? You know, that was what the contractors did. But otherwise the other pieces that you're talking about they did as well, is that correct? SM: I don't follow you GE: I guess in other words, I guess all I'm saying is most of the clothes manufacturers. SM: Here in town? GE: Or in New York, they in a sense, did just as you did, where from fabric to the sales, the only thing that many of them did is many of them outsourced the sewing. SM: Yeah, so the companies-there were companies that owned nothing, they.would sell - some enterprising people-they would manage to sell a big batch of stuff, and they would buy the fabric, and they'd ship it to a contractor and the contractor would sew it up, and would ship it out to the customer for them. GE: Ok, so in other words, all they did was take care of the sale in a sense? SM: The sales, and getting hold of the fabric. And they didn't actually make the fabric, they bought the fabric, but there were other places that bought or made the fabric and- GE: Right, so you're saying it varied a lot. SM: Oh yeah, and there were- in order to capitalize, if you couldn't get your credit from the bank, they had what they call factors, you know about them? GE: You know what? Why don't you tell us, I've heard the term, and I know a little bit about them. SM: We never used the factor but he would sell your goods, and send the bill to him. He would pay it, less a percentage, and he would handle the accounts receivable. And he'd collect it, it's his problem. Of course, he would have to approve of the people you sell it to. GE: Right. So he took care of that part. SM: Right there you have another partner but that could work, because he's the one who's getting you the capital. GE: Right. SM: To buy the fabric, and do everything else. GE: And take care of the headache with the accounts receivable. SM: Oh yeah, that's a big headache, I have to tell you one story. GE: Sure. SM: When we bought our new building, GE: And this was about when? SM: This was in the 70's, and at the time, the building was certainly worth the price. It was a great deal for a bank for a mortgage. For whatever reason, I don't remember, there was no mortgage money around. I guess banks have certain amounts in their portfolios that they could put into mortgages and whatnot there was none, and we were just dying. We were trying every bank in town, they would say, normally we would take a baseball bat and keep you here to make the deal, but they had no money. And we had a French poodle at the time, and the French poodle had an accident in the bedroom. And I got up at night, not knowing, go to the bathroom, and I stepped in it. Which is sort of, you know, well, funny experience, I told my mother, the next day I told my mother this, and she said, you're going to get your mortgage, and I said why, and she says, it's an old tale, that if you step in shit, something good is going to happen to you. Don't you think, the next day-- GE: Your mother was right! SM: We got a call that they- I think it was union bank at the time -was going to take the mortgage. SC: That's funny. SM: It was just amazing. GE: Was that the time that you told us that you bought the building, I think from Finkelstein? SM: Yes. GE: Okay. SM: Yeah, that was in the earlier seventies. And then shortly after that, in '76, '77 we had this Tris fiasco and you'll read it in there. One of the unique things about it, is the consumer products safety commission was comparatively new, and well, they had an axe to grind. Well they went ahead and issued this ban, but the ban was illegal. The ban was illegal because they were supposed to give the people involved their day in court. To say, hey wait a minute, you can't ban this because.... or the tests were wrong... they just-- it was a unilateral thing. Ultimately, it went to the Supreme Court, and the ban was declared illegal, but the damage was done. Once they declared the ban, all the stores -- sell all the stuff back! And if they had paid for the merchandise, we had to repay them. If they hadn't paid for the merchandise, the account receivable was no good. So- but the ban was illegal. GE: How was that fought? Is there an association, or lobby? SM: We had no lobby, what we did, we had a very very strong advocate, I don't think you'll know the name, Louis Nizer was a very prominent lawyer in New York, who happened to be a relation to my partner, and Louis Nizer sent one of these amicus something, friend to the court. GE: Amicus brief or something, SM: And there were some other prominent attorneys that were hired and that was. GE: Was that fought by your firm, or by a consortium? SM: Well sort of a consortium. GE: Of all the ones affected... SM: Mostly the bigger ones but, we were all involved, we went to Washington D.C. and, I was really pleasantly surprised how accessible, I don't mean by graft, but how accessible a lot of the representatives and congressmen were in dealing with this thing, because they knew it was a fiasco, and they all wanted to, and tried to do something. And ultimately a bill was passed in Congress so that those affected could get a loan to help get back on your feet. And-in that little article I gave you- once you made a claim of X number of dollars they had to come and audit your books, to make sure that the claim was kosher. And we had the FBI -the FBI came in! With their guns, they had to go through all the records to see whether we qualified. And then the tough part was- of course, we had no money, but if they would grant you a loan, you had to pay income tax on it. Hah, and we had no money to pay income tax for it, it was a horrible situation, we couldn't take the money, because we'd have to pay back too much money, which we didn't have. We'd have to borrow money to pay back-to pay the income tax. It was -there would be nothing left. It was really freaky, the loan that we did end up getting was from the SBA, where you really had to dance and sing and do everything else for them before you would get the loan they say this. SC: I'm sorry, what year was this about? SM: That was about, in the later seventies. GE: And about how many years did it take your company to recoup from all of this? SM: I would say about 3 or 4 or 5 years. But we never really got out of the mess because we were always, we never had enough working capital- it was always difficult, so that if we wanted to expand again, we couldn't we just had enough working capital to operate, we wanted to buy new machines, something fancy with computers and what not back then, oh that was a big thing, we couldn't do it. So we were at a certain level that we just couldn't get out of. SC: And may I- I just wanted to comment that in the early 70's when you first started, when it was hard to get money, of course that was moving into the time of stack inflation when prices were high and - GE: And growth was low. SC: Yeah, and then interest rates were high and then in the late 70's and you would be moving into the recession of the early 81' recession. SM: Yeah we ended up going through all the cycles. GE: Right. SC: It makes so much sense, history works. GE: Right, although the cycles I would think because it pajamas, you probably don't feel the cycles as much as, you just have to do a little bit cheaper maybe, items: SM: Yes, there were ways to make things fit into a price range. GE: Right, but I think in general. SM: You make the garment a little smaller. There were really no standards. SC: Yes, I always thought that. SM: You thought there were standards? SC: Those garments were getting a little smaller. At times and they were-- SM: You thought you were gaining weight, or you were getting tall right? SC: No, I never thought I was getting tall SM: There were really no standards, some of the buyers, some of the bigger companies would say that this is -make the garment according to this, that the inseam has to be this long, and the out seam has to be this long and you had to make it to their specs, well that's fine but otherwise you could make the bathrobe an inch shorter and when you start adding up all these inches, all of a sudden the piece doesn't cost ten dollars a dozen it only cost nine dollars a dozen. Or make it a little bit- the pants leg, not quite as full, make it a little bit narrower, make the pants a little bit shorter, the sleeves a little bit shorter. The chest measurement is a little bit less- and nobody knows the difference. They'll put it on and oh, this is a size 4 it doesn't fit my child, well oh, I've got a big child. They don't blame it on the garment, they don't. Whoa, my child is growing so big, so tall, that was done all the time. There was nothing that was really standard unless a customer insisted. But to a place like Hess's or any other department store chains they bought what you gave them, not so with Montgomery Ward, I remember they had very stringent standards. GE: Right, interesting. SC: Yeah. SM: Fellow named Max Charcov. Max Charcov's daughter married Roland Sigal. Sigal had a building by Sacred Heart Hospital where he had dress shops. I don't remember the names of the dress shops but he was very successful. And he was very philanthropic. And Max, Max was a real old slovenly Jewish fella, and he would pedal machines. He would buy anybody's machine, sewing machine, for 50 bucks and would um,- he would fix them up, like a used car's fixed up. How would he fix them up, he'd take a rag, he dusted it off, had no idea whether the machine worked. But it's like new, he said. And he would then sell the machine for $100 or whatever. If you needed a used machine, Max had it. He never had a building, he had various garages around town where he would store the machines. He had a driver, because he couldn't drive anymore. He would run, he had the machines, and he had nothing on paper. He knew every machine that he had ; he had hundreds of machines. And they were all used and when it was time, you needed a machine, you call Charcov if you want to get a used machine. And sometimes he would buy our machines, and I remember he would come in and we would sell him 2 or 3 machines, and he would owe us three or four hundred dollars, and he would take his checkbook and he would give it to me. He says write out a check. He has no remittance- no um, check stubs, no check register, so I write out a check to August Nielsen for three hundred dollars. I give it to Max to sign, and I take the check and that's good. I don't know who kept his books. I don't know if he ever paid income tax but he was a guy that- he was a fixture in the business. SC: Ha-ha oh, I have a-this is tape number 2- on June 17 2014 and we're interviewing Stan Miller, but I have a question- there was another question I had, how did you choose the name of Nielsen? SM: We didn't. SC: Oh it was. SM: That was the gentleman that my father went to work for in the early 1890s or early 1900s. His name was August F Nielsen. And they ultimately made the company incorporated, and I don't remember the terms. But I know that my father took over the business either because his wife was sick, and he was going to die, and they would support the wife until she died, or some kind of arrangement like that. They would pay him off or pay him in some way. I don't remember [details] but it was an interesting setup. But that name was there and no point in changing it ; it was unique. SC: And I remember Louie Nizer's name and I don't know why. SM: You do? SC: Yes I do. I don't know why, whether I read it in the history book. SM: My Life in Court--he wrote some books. SC: Yeah, he wrote some books, that's what It was. SM: He wrote some books. He was very big, really a big-shot in law in New York. GE: Can you share with us a little bit, let's say the last ten years as it was beginning to a little ·bit unwind and slowdown for you SM: Well during that time we knew the handwriting was on the wall because we were having trouble competing with folks, the other big manufacturers who then they ended up switching and manufacturing their stuff not in their plants down south, but in the Caribbean. There was this plan 807-- it was some kind of bill or something where goods can be made in the Caribbean, that made Guatemala and Haiti and Dominican Republic come into the United States with no duty as long as a certain percentage of the cost of the garment was done in the United States. I don't know what the percentage was, but it was pretty small. So, goods were sent uncut down to the Caribbean, it was cut, it was sewn, everything was done to it and it was sent back to the United States, and maybe we put a plastic bag over the garment and put a hang tag on which amounted to the proper percentage of labor. Something ridiculous and their costs were -- I may have said this before--their costs were five dollars a day. They were paying five dollars a day and this was in the 90's and the late 80's where we were paying five dollars an hour. And that was good, plus vacations and blue cross and blue shield, and holidays and all this other garbage and taxes and unemployment. They were paying just five dollars a day and there's no way you can compete with that. Plus these-- our competitors-- had the better licenses, so we were making an inferior garment for lack of a better term, or a less desirable garment. GE: Right, less desired. SM: At a higher price! Doesn't work. So gradually, our sales decreased, and we were shopping around trying to sell, and then we were still manufacturing a little bit, and we were trying to do some contracting work. We did some contracting work, um, and it gradually wound down to the point where as years went on, and we kept paying our people, I remember Walter and I, we kept taking our salary was maybe about 15,000 a year or something. And it was ridiculous, we just kept cutting our salaries. Well you had to pay your secretaries and we would give up my secretary because-um, it gradually wound down and we knew it was happening. We just held on as long as we could and tried to at the end pay off everybody, as many people as we could. We still had the building that we ultimately sold to well, it was some person who made candles, and we went through the building one time after that, and I saw a lot of my people there and they were making candles in the building. GE: Well, that's good at least SM: Yeah. GE: Where was your building? SM: South Allentown on South Albert Street. We had the, there was a fire company there, Fairview Fire Company I think, it's about a block or so away and it was a lovely building. It was great for us, it was about 40,000 square feet or 50,000 something like that. GE: At its peak, how many employees did you have there? SM: At its peak we had maybe about 120 there. We had another factory in Allentown with another 40 or 50. So we had two. GE: Two hundred. Okay, and how about the other employees, like in the New York area I realize that's small. SM: Well we had my partner and a sales manager so to speak, they had no need for office help and they took care of the sales and managed the salesmen on the road, we had no real employees. GE: Other than that. SM: Of note, in New York, except the sales. force. You know, one guy can sell enough to keep 200 people working in someplace else. GE: Right. SM: Sales it's just a different ballgame. They can make a sale and they can provide us with enough work for three months. GE: When, as you said, you saw the handwriting on the wall. Is there any consideration to either also trying to use labor in the Caribbean or to make that move, or- SM: Oh yeah, we were approached quite often, I remember one was in Guatemala. They would provide the land, they'd build the building, they'd help finance the machines, the labor was cheap, there would be no taxes for I don't know, and I just, as for me, I just couldn't see myself leaving my wife and three kids and going there or taking them there, or being there for three months out of the year. It wasn't for me. In retrospect, I suppose there could have been a way to do that and then you could compete, and we might still be in business for all I know but doing that wasn't for me. GE: Right. SM: It scared me, I just couldn't do it. And my brother-in-law felt the same way. So, whereas a lot of the people from down in the south it was a little closer for them, they went for it. We couldn't do that. So we ended up, for a while, we did some contracting and just, that was an unhappy situation, when we were manufacturing, we were our own bosses, when you're contacting, somebody else is telling you what to do. And we were very unhappy about that. But it happened, it evolved, as many things do ; businesses don't stay in business forever. And we had a good run. It was 70 some odd years that we were. GE: Continuous in two generations? SM: Yeah, yeah. GE: Right, and so you closed the doors in around 1994, like you said. SM: Yeah and we started renting the building and um, but we couldn't keep the building. We had to unload it so we had it up for sale. I don't remember when it was sold, maybe a year or two later. And as for me, I filed for social security. I think I was 62, and I started working for the bank. And I knew a lot of the people there, and I knew some of the people who were hiring, and I started working for them. And I became, I guess, the oldest male bearded Jewish bank teller east of the Mississippi River. They had none like that. They had no men. SC: Ha-ha. SM: Think back! Who were the bank tellers? The girls who then became pregnant. They were all women, they never had a man, never had anybody my age, with a beard, so - and I worked part time, and it was good because it kept me a little busy, GE: Sure. SM: It gave me some pocket money, I was having fun with the people. I wasn't a normal bank teller. I would kid with them and ask them about their children. You joke with them about giving them change in 17 and 23 dollar bills, and I enjoyed it. GE: Good. SM: I really had fun. GE: Right. That's great. And how long did you do that? SM: And I spent 7 years there. GE: Right. SM: I had time to play golf and play tennis and so it was wonderful for me. I was there from seven years 94' to 2001. GE: And then you retired? SM: Then I retired, and I became a professional tennis player and golf player, and I was an actor. I did that and I had a good life ; it was the best job I had. Retirement, it was wonderful. GE: Right, you speak very highly of it. SM: Oh yeah, it was really, really, really, good. GE: Good. SC: Well I have a couple of other questions, and, first of all there was a question I had about where was your other factory, SM: Originally it was on Hamilton Street, 930 Hamilton Street. Do you remember Miller Furniture? SC: Ah you know what, the name is familiar. SM: It was on the south side, not Hess's side. It was a half a block away from Hess's. And Krupers Appliances was there. It was between 9th and l0th Streets, and we had an upstairs there, and we were operating that plant for a while, and then we lost the lease and then we found a place. You would know this building, it's on 7th and Tilghman Street. It was a bank on the comer, there was a bank there and then one place up was another building. I don't know what was there, um, it was an automobile showroom or whatever. Anyway we took the second floor and had to put in a fireproof stairway, and they had a ramp that we used when we moved in. I rented a golf cart because we had so much stuff to bring up and there was no elevator to get to the second floor but there was a ramp because it used to be a car dealer. And they would have the cars up on the second floor, and go down the ramp. In fact that was the place where many years ago I went to see my very first Edsel. It was a dealer that had the Edsels and I went with my cousins to look at it. I remember seeing the Edsel there so we had that place for a while and then as time went on we had to condense our operation. We had to close that, I don't remember when we closed it, it was sometime in the nineties where it just wasn't feasible anymore. So we were running two, and running night shifts sometimes. When the situation demanded it. That was our- SC: By the time you closed, how many workers, how many employees did you have at the end? SM: Oh well it started going down. GE: Right. SM: We must have had about 40 or 50 or 60 when we used to have over 100 because certain operations we didn't need. After a while we didn't need the cutting room, we were just getting the stuff in cut, and we just had to sew it. We gradually knocked it down. Even to the point when we were contracting we really didn't need our girl in the office to do the payroll anymore. We found it cheaper that we would send it out to I don't know... GE: ADP? SM: Yeah, one of those places. And they'd send the check. It would cost us less than paying the girl her salary and her Blue Cross and Blue Shield, and holidays. I mean we gave the girls, they had a salary and her Blue Cross and Blue Shield, and holidays. I mean we gave the girls, they had up to 14 holidays we were giving them ; they even got Yom Kippur off. Then they got their Easter, and their Good Friday and um, they had plenty of holidays, um what else could I tell you, not much else. SC: Okay, so my other question is what do you value most in life? SM: What do I value most in life? I suppose good health and the health of my family. I can't think of much else that's important and ultimately you die with a good name. Because they never caught me. GE: Right and as you say you checked it out on the internet. SM: Yeah there was nothing bad, although the NSA has been checking my computers. I never... GE: They're checking everybody's SC: That's the new democracy, we all get checked. SM: Well, you've got these crazies in the world. SC: Yeah I know, SM: You wonder, right now everybody says oh don't check me you're invading my privacy. As soon as we have another 9/11- why didn't you know about these people!? So there's no happy medium there. SC: And what makes you feel the most creative, artistic, I mean in the broadest sense of creative or maybe a sense of completion in your life? SM: In my life, other than being very proud of your three kids, me, I like to sing. So I was in the Temple choir for about forty years. We ended up, my family ended up somehow getting involved in theater, so besides my daughter, my wife became a manager and I was a theater um. I did shows at Cedar Crest, Muhlenberg, at Civic, and Pennsylvania Playhouse ; I did them all over in the [area]. SC: You acted? SM: Yeah, so I did that. I found we all agreed, this group that we-- this last group that we were with-- that one of the greatest joys in life, the biggest kick that we would get is to be in a room full of people and make them laugh. And that's what we were doing, we were doing murder mysteries. Believe me they were funny, and we were good, because we handled- it's a different procedure than being on a proscenium stage because on a proscenium stage there's an invisible wall between the actors and the audience. There's no ad-libbing to speak of, you do your thing, when you do dinner theater or murder mysteries. You are this close to them, and some of the people shoot off their mouths. You know they interrupt, and you have to know what to do, you can end up forgetting your lines, and you answer them back, sometimes you have to shut up, shut them up. One time we had somebody who wouldn't shut up, and one of the people in the show yelled over to a waiter do you have any tape? And he says, yeah, and she says give me the tape. And she went over and put duct tape on the guy's mouth. Of course he took it off, but he got the hint. Another time, when we were starting act 3, I was out there with one guy, and we had a little dialogue and he was supposed to answer but before he could somebody in the audience shouted something out. It was funny. It was really funny, everybody laughed. Well, you can't let him get away with it, so you hit him with something, and then he comes back with something, and before you know it well, everything's stopped, and I said to the guy with me, where did we stop? But, you can do these things in the dinner theater. He says I don't know, well let's start all over again. Excuse me. And my wife was involved, my daughter was involved, my other two daughters were involved. We all played the piano, they sang, they played the violin, this is what we did. That was our life. As a matter of fact, when we had this Tris fiasco where we really had no income at all, we couldn't take any income, we dropped out of Locust Valley and stopped doing things, going out for dinners. We ended up doing theater, that was our entertainment--theater. When we started Percy Brown's dinner theater in the 70's, we would have a show Friday night, Saturday night, and Sunday night, and Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday we'd be rehearsing for the next show. GE: Wow. SM: And this was the whole family doing it. One daughter was dancing, another one was doing this, another one was playing the drums. Lois was assistant director, and doing the props and the makeup, and I was in the show. I think the first show I did myself and three other guys who were the male chorus and the reviewer called us led-footed hoofers with terminal melancholy. And he was right by the way, we were really bad. But I got to like it, I did pretty good, and that was my fun. Plus I did photography ; I've taken a lot of photographs, and that was my thing, that made me happy. SC: Thank you. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:24:44
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Stan Miller, May 22, 2014
Description
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Stan Miller talks about how his father, a young immigrant, got started in manufacturing children’s pajamas in New York City, and later moved the production to Allentown. The sales office of the company remained in New York and was run by Stan’s father’s partner. When Stan and his family moved to Allentown, Stan was 17 years old and would soon start college. Stan attended Muhlenberg College, majoring in Accounting and Economics. After college and the service, Stan and his brother-in-law entered the family business. As did the son of Stan’s father’s partner. Stan is very proud that the business operated harmoniously among the partners during its more than seventy-five years in business. The firm closed in 1994, due to stiff competition from globalization.
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LVTNT-07
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2014-05-22
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Title
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
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Shirley Berman
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-32.xml
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5.4 June 24, 2013 Shirley Berman, June 24, 2013 LVTNT-32 56:19 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Shirley Berman Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 BermanShirley_20130624.mp4 1.0:|25(11)|48(4)|71(9)|86(7)|105(4)|124(3)|141(16)|158(6)|177(13)|196(14)|223(10)|250(6)|271(8)|296(5)|323(7)|342(19)|357(17)|378(17)|405(8)|420(3)|439(14)|456(3)|475(7)|494(8)|517(8)|544(5)|565(5)|586(13)|611(4)|622(13)|643(12)|666(10)|687(3)|708(11)|725(15)|740(15)|763(5)|786(17)|823(6)|848(15)|897(4)|944(6)|969(6)|986(6)|1005(13)|1032(8)|1051(15)|1088(4)|1111(5)|1144(9)|1169(12)|1188(9)|1227(11)|1262(5)|1311(9)|1340(13)|1349(8) 0 https://youtu.be/M1O5Ts9DK8E YouTube video 0 Family History SC: Shirley, may I ask what your full name is including your maiden name and when you were born.
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 ; SB: Shirley Isabelle Malenovsky Berman, and I was born August 14, 1922 and I would like to say welcome to you two lovely ladies.
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 ; SC: Well thank you.
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 ; SB: It’s nice to have you here in my home. 0 833 Shirley Berman's Husband's Family SC: Can we talk a little bit about your husband’s family?
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 ; SB: Sure, My husband was in the army and when he got out of the army, he had worked before for a company in New Jersey somewhere. He and his brother worked for a company.
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 ; GE: What was his brother’s name?
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 ; SB: Rubin.
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 ; GE: So it’s Harry and Rubin. 0 1200 Shirley's Involvement in the Business SC: So after you and Harry were married, did you become involved in the business at all?
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 ; SB: I was involved in the sense that we socialized with his customers and a lot of them didn’t want Harry to come without me. We always traveled together, we went to Europe – all over together. We went to Europe a couple of times a year. A lot of his business was in Europe. 0 1351 The Business SC: Can you explain what you know of the business process?
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 ; SB: He had the first computerized textile machine in the country. The machines were computerized and he could design on the machine itself. He had one of the largest textile businesses in the country, until knitting started to decline. Then fortunately he got out in time and we enjoyed the rest of our lives together as much as we could. 0 1692 Later Family History GE: How about Harry’s education?
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 ; SB: He graduated from high school and then he went two years to night school – night college.
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 ; GE: Was that after the war on the G.I. Bill or was that before the war?
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 ; SB: Well, he graduated high school before the war.
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 ; GE: Right, but how about college?
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 ; SB: It could have been after. He went to a school for design – I forget what you call it.
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 ; GE: Like – I know in Philadelphia – there is the Philadelphia College of Textiles and Science. 0 2047 Shirley's Father's Business During the Great Depression GE: And your father’s business managed to stay okay during the Depression?
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 ; SB: They managed – they managed to be fine – they wound up good. We never realized how good they were – we were never told as children their situation. We were just happy for them. I had good parents. It wasn’t like today, we didn’t have the problems that we have today – none of the problems with any of our children. It was a good life, a simple life, my parents never spoiled us, and I never realized the position they were in until after my father passed away. We enjoyed what we had. 0 2166 Connections to Jewish Community SC: When you were a child did you play mostly with kids in the neighborhood, or did you have more connections to the Jewish community?
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 ; SB: I used to walk, when we lived on 5th Street - I used to go to Hebrew School. I used to walk myself coming home at night – I don’t know if you know Allentown – from Fifth Street, the north end – we lived below Washington on Fifth. I walked from there all the way to Sixth and Chew – this would be where the Jewish Community Center was – myself to go to Hebrew School at night. In the winter, it was dark – I never had any qualms about walking. 0 2522 Shirley's Education GE: Right. Tell us about your education. Where did you go to school?
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 ; SC: That’s what I was going to ask.
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 ; SB: My education- first I went to the school at 5th and Washington St.. It was called Garfield. At that time they told me I had the highest IQ of anyone in the school they had had. 
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 ; GE: Wow.
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 ; SB: So that was nice to hear as a youngster. Then we moved, and I went up to Raub Jr. High School. And then from there I went to Allentown High School. 0 2753 More Involvement in the Jewish Community SC: So can you talk a little bit about, were you involved in the community, the larger community, or the Jewish community?
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 ; SB: I was active, yes I was active as a young woman, I was active in Hadassah. I was on the board. I was active at Temple Beth El. I was the secretary for a number of years. Well, I wasn’t active at the- I was a life member at the Jewish Community Center. But I wasn’t active per se. And I was active with my own things, you know, my own friends and family.
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 ; SC: Right, you own life. How about Harry? Was he very active in either these organizations or professional organizations?
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 ; SB: Yes, he was.
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 ; GE: What was he involved in?
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 ; SB: He was part of the Jewish Federation, he was part of the different organizations- I can’t think of a name. 0 2887 Memories of Business Employees GE: [A]ny good memories that you have about his employees, at all? Any of the employees, local employees? First of all, how many? Do you know what was the size, how many workers there were?
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 ; SB: He had a big factory. See this is why I said, I didn’t think I could give you too much information.
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 ; GE: That’s okay.
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 ; SB: No, let me think. I would safely say that between the three different businesses that he owned, I would say that he hired maybe a couple thousand.
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 ; SC: Wow, that's big.
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 ; SB: Yeah, maybe more, but I don’t want to say more.
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 ; GE: Now when you say the three businesses, it’s the fabric-
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 ; SB: Yeah and then the two other factories.
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 ; GE: And then the two factories.
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 ; SB: Yeah so safely I would say maybe a couple thousand.
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 ; GE: That’s big. 0 2964 How Has Allentown Changed Since You Were Young? SC: Well, in your whole life, let's start with that. How has Allentown changed since you were young?
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 ; SB: How about what?
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 ; SC: Allentown has changed since you were young.
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 ; SB: Oh yes, of course. There’s so much more going on in Allentown now. So much more building. So many more businesses and organizations and growth in the city of Allentown. Even in the population, people have come here from New Jersey and New York. They come here to live, because it's better living for them. They come from New York and New Jersey, there is great growth here in Allentown.
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 ; SC: Is it a different climate than when you were a child?
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 ; SB: Yes it is. It’s a different climate like it is all over the world, unfortunately. And, more things happening here that shouldn’t be happening, but, there is good growth and there is also evil growth, which is throughout the world now unfortunately. 0 3063 What Do You Value Most in Life? SC: So I have two really sort of filmy questions, just feeling questions, first of all what do you value in life most?
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 ; SB: What do I what?
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 ; SC: Value in life most.
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 ; SB: I value my family. That’s number one in my life. My friends, and I am blessed to have a wonderful family. Both my own personal family and my nieces, nephews, their families, and my own families, and also my wonderful friends, as well as terrific doctors who have kept me living, and to whom I really owe my life. And nurses, and I’m blessed to have them as my personal friends. I am. 0 3125 What Has Made You Feel the Most Creative? SC: And what have you- has made you feel the most creative?
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 ; SB: Pardon?
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 ; SC: The most creative in your life.
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 ; SB: The most creative in my life. Well, my children are creative, in their own way, each one. I appreciate that in them, in each one. My oldest is in a videotaping business. 0 MovingImage Shirley Berman talks about growing up in Allentown. Her father’s ancestors (Malenovsky family) were among the first Jewish settlers in Allentown. Elias Malenovsky was a founder of the first synagogue in Allentown down on 2nd St. Later, Shirley married Harry Berman. Harry owned Fair-Tex Mills, one of the largest knitting mills in the U.S. and the first to use computerized textile machines. Shirley proudly shared that she accompanied her husband regularly on business trips throughout Europe and always enjoyed entertaining customers and vendors.
 ; An Interview with Shirley Berman, June 24, 2013 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Shirley, may I ask what your full name is including your maiden name and when you were born. SHIRLEY BERMAN: Shirley Isabelle Malenovsky Berman, and I was born August 14, 1922 and I would like to say welcome to you two lovely ladies. SC: Well thank you. SB: It's nice to have you here in my home. SC: And a beautiful home, absolutely beautiful and beautiful tea that we just had. Where were you born? SB: I was born in the Sacred Heart Hospital in Allentown many, many years ago. I'm not going to tell you -- you can figure it out yourself. SC: Where did you live as a small child? SB: As a child, we lived on North 5th St. until we moved up to -- we went West. You know what they say, "go west young man" - well the young lady went West to 16th Street. GAIL EISENBERG: What year was that? Or how old were you? SB: I was about 12 or 13 so that would have been in '35-'34 in that area. SC: So when you were living on 5th Street in South Allentown, was there a Synagogue there? SB: Yes, there was the Congregation Sons of Israel at that time on North 6th Street, a couple of blocks from where we lived -- we lived on North 5th Street. SC: Is that building still there? SB: Yes it is, I think it became a Greek church at one time, I don't know if it still is, but possibly. It was a lovely building -- stone building. GE: And that building was at 6th and what? SB: 6th and Tilghman. SC: My husband and I drove to -- actually to one of our friend's fathers who passed away, and we drove in that area and he was trying to tell me what he remembered because he was born in Allentown--so we'll go back again and look for it. SB: We used to walk to the Temple from where we lived - it was just a couple of blocks. SC: When you moved to 16th Street, did the Synagogue relocate at that time? SB: No, the Synagogue at that time was a small, little building at about 12th or 13th -- I think it was Thirteenth & ; Walnut Street. As a matter of fact, my brother's bar mitzvah was the last bar mitzvah in that little synagogue. Then we moved up here to 17th and Hamilton Street, where they built Temple Beth El. SC: How about your parents, can you tell me as much as you can about them -- where they were born, where their families were from and where they lived. SB: My mother was from Burlington, Vermont. My father lived in Allentown and through a cousin of my father's, I believe it was -- in upstate New York State -- they met. That cousin arranged for my mother to come visit her so she could meet my father. Then through correspondence and telephone for a while, they corresponded and spoke to each other and eventually they got together and got married. My mother moved to Allentown and lived for a while until they established themselves and bought a home on North Fifth Street. They lived with my grandparents -- my father's parents, who were from Russia. They were a dear couple, very sweet. My grandfather, as a matter of fact, Elias Malenovsky, was one of the first Jewish settlers in Allentown. He established a little synagogue down on 2nd Street - he and a man by the name of Mr. Senderowitz -- the two first Jewish settlers in Allentown. SC: So that's the Malenovsky family that is also related to Sheftel? SB: Sheftel was my aunt, who was my father's sister's husband. Eventually my father and Mr. Sheftel went into business together. Sheftel, I understand, had a truck. SC: We have a picture of it. GE: That was their first truck. SB: That was an inducement for my father to start a business along those lines. What happened was, with the business, was that my grandfather was known as a peddler. He had a horse and a wagon. In those days there were lots of peddlers going around the neighborhoods. He traveled from Allentown all the way up to Slatington picking up whatever he could buy at the time, whether it was clothes, fruit, watermelons, or junk or odds-n-ends, whatever he could put his hands on and then he would sell it for a couple more cents, in those days -- no big deal -- there was no General Motors at the time. Anyhow, my father went to school until he was in the 8th grade and then he went out peddling with his father. One day my grandmother (my father's mother) said to him, I just found this out, as a matter of fact, today, my brother was over here and gave me this information -- she said to him, "Why don't you go to factories and pick up the little scraps that they get rid of and you can sell it to other places -- like paper mills." There were a lot of places - I've written down here -- where they sold it to. They sold it to paper mills, to roofing companies (they used in the shingles), the paper companies used in the paper, the government used it in money -- my brother gave me this information to me today--I can't read my own writing--stationery companies and I have to get my glasses, can you read that at the bottom? SC: Wiping rags? SB: Oh yes, wiping rags -- that's how he started his business and it got to be a rather large business. When my father passed away, then Sheftel passed away -- within six weeks of each other. Sheftel's children took it over and now I think it's in the hands of the grandchildren. Right? GE: I think so. SC: Do you know any of the other names in your family -- your mother's family or your father's mother's family? Any of the other surnames? GE: In other words, we already know about Malenovsky-- SB: You mean like my father had a brother? SC: Your mother's mother's name? SB: My mother's name was Flax. That grandfather of mine was a Reverend. He was a mohel and he wrote and he was also a shochet. GE: Oh, he did with the slaughtering. SB: He did different things for the Temple. For example, for the graves at the cemeteries you had to take out certain papers and printing and everything - like for the -- oh what's it called? SC: Engraving? Or the stone work to put the names on. SB: Yes, he did that. Also on my father's side, my grandfather -- that other grandfather and my uncle, who was my father's brother, did that for the cemeteries and for the people who made the monuments. They wrote for the two families. GE: So the Flax family -- they were in Vermont. Do you know where they were prior to Vermont? SB: No, I don't know. GE: Around, let's say for instance, your grandparents lived in Vermont, how about their parents? Do you know if their parents did? SB: I never knew their parents and their parents weren't in Vermont. Their parents were from Russia. GE: Do you know if the family came from Russia? Poland? SB: I don't know exactly. I should have asked my brother. My brother could probably give you that information -- I'll give you his name and telephone number. GE: That would be good. SC: We could fill in then. GE: How about your father's family, let's say for instance the Malenovskys? SB: They also came from Russia. I think-- I'm almost certain--. GE: Both of them sound like they came fairly early -- more like the 1870's -- not 1900 or even earlier. SB: It might be a little early possibly. SC: Do you know where in Vermont they lived? SB: In Burlington. SC: They went right to Burlington? SB: No, I just thought of the place my cousin was -- that introduced my parents -- Glenn Falls, New York. They lived there for a while -- the Flax family. SC: Burlington is also an interesting city for people to go to. SB: The University of Vermont is there -- it's a good medical school, a fine medical school. SC: And, there was industry there, I believe, earlier. SB: Industry? I don't know--.maple syrup?!? GE: They started out at Glenn Falls, do you know why they went to Burlington? SB: Maybe he was offered a job there -- in the Shul. SC: Right, because he was a mohel? SB: He started the one shul there, too. GE: And how about the Malenovsky family -- where your grandfather was a peddler, do you know what brought them to Allentown? SB: I don't really know -- sorry I can't help you out there. My grandmother had a sister living here -- that motivated her -- by the name of Becker -- the Becker family -- that could have been part of it -- I don't know. They were in the meat business, the Becker boys. GE: Were they butchers or meat processors? SB: I don't know. My brother could help you more with that information. SC: And, also I could look some of this up on Ancestry.com -- you can look up names. SB: If you ask my brother, he could help you out with some of it. SC: So the Becker brothers would be at the turn of the century? SB: Probably. SC: We have to say what century, anymore! GE: Of the early 20th century. It sounds like the family was in Allentown by 1870's and so if that brought them there--. SC: Can we talk a little bit about your husband's family? SB: Sure, My husband was in the army and when he got out of the army, he had worked before for a company in New Jersey somewhere. He and his brother worked for a company. GE: What was his brother's name? SB: Rubin. GE: So it's Harry and Rubin. SB: I'll tell you, Harry was the whole business, Rubin liked to think he was, but don't put that down! SC: That's fine. GE: And I assume when you said they were in the army, it was that during WWII. SB: Right, we're not that old! GE: Just double checking! You're the same age as my parents. And, they grew up in New Jersey? SB: No, they grew up in New York. GE: New York City? SB: They were in New York City for a while. I don't know if they were in Brooklyn so put down New York City. GE: And then they moved to New Jersey? SB: Well, no he used to go by ferry to New Jersey. GE: Okay, he just worked in New Jersey. The two brothers together worked in New Jersey. SC: And they were Rubin and Harry Berman -- so we could look that up, too. SB: In between he went into the army for four years. They worked together for a while for a company in New Jersey. Then when he got out of the army, he moved to Catasauqua. He had a dying -- a knitting and dying - small place in Catasauqua. GE: Was that a place that he owned, was that a place that he worked at? SB: I don't know if he owned it. I don't know, I can't tell you that. SC: Again, we could look that up. SB: He probably owned it. Anyhow, after that, he was there for a couple years, he built this very large factory on 309 near Emmaus, outside of Emmaus - A knitting and dyeing factory -- both -- everything under one roof. SC: Do you know the address of that -- the factory -- what street it was on. SB: I don't know the name of it -- Emaus Avenue. GE: And the name is Fair-Tex? SB: The name was Fair-Tex Mills. Then they went on the stock exchange after a few years. What else do you want to know? SC: Do you know anything about Harry's family? Where they came from? What they did? SB: They came from Russia, too. GE: Were their parents from Russia? SB: Yes. GE: So they were first generation, Harry & ; Rubin - their parents were from Russia. SC: Do you know anything about the education of any of the people we talked about? SB: My mother was a teacher. She taught in a school where they taught first to sixth grade. She used to come by horse and buggy, then she took a trolley -- she went about ten different ways to get to school. SC: Do you know where the school was? SB: Outside of Burlington somewhere. SC: So before she was married she taught. GE: I don't have your parent's names. SB: My mother's name? GE: Yes. SB: Lillian Rachel Flax Malenovsky. GE: So she went to college? SB: She didn't go to college. In those days she didn't go to college. GE: But she graduated high school? SB: Yes and got her teaching - whatever it was. GE: Certificate probably. SC: For normal school perhaps. GE: And what was your father's name? SB: Jacob Harry Malenovsky. He went to eighth grade, period. SC: So many people did. SB: But he was very bright. GE: Absolutely! SC: So after you and Harry were married, did you become involved in the business at all? SB: I was involved in the sense that we socialized with his customers and a lot of them didn't want Harry to come without me. We always traveled together, we went to Europe -- all over together. We went to Europe a couple of times a year. A lot of his business was in Europe. GE: When you say his business was in Europe do you mean customers? SB: No, he bought machines over there, equipment, and we became close friends with the people we did business with. As a matter of fact, we were the only customers who were invited to their homes. We had wonderful times with these people. Unfortunately all of them are dead now -- every one of them, but they were wonderful people. SC: Did you entertain them also? SB: Yes, I did. Some of them came here to my house and they liked it. I had a lovely house. SC: 3363 Trexler Boulevard -- at the corner of 34th and Trexler. A beautiful house at one time. As a matter of fact, it was on television. GE: When did you and Harry marry? SB: 1962. GE: And he passed away--.. SB: We were married for 45 years. SC: Is that a wedding picture in the cabinet? SB: No, that's my son. SC: Oh, that's your son -- oh that's how young you look! SB: I have pictures of us, but not wedding pictures -- I will show you sometime. SC: Can you explain what you know of the business process? SB: He had the first computerized textile machine in the country. The machines were computerized and he could design on the machine itself. He had one of the largest textile businesses in the country, until knitting started to decline. Then fortunately he got out in time and we enjoyed the rest of our lives together as much as we could. SC: What year did he get out of it? SB: He was probably close to 65. He was born in 1918. GE: So that would be early '82-'83. SC: So he was in a good, long time. SB: Yes, most of his life. SC: As far as the business, when you said he had the first computerized designing, was he designing clothing at that time? SB: He had women that designed for him -- designers. SC: So he wasn't a contractor necessarily in the end to New York manufacturers, he was a producer, he was a manufacturer. SB: Of fabric - basically. And he had other factories where he manufactured garments. He bought a place in western Pennsylvania near Pittsburgh where they made ladies shirts. He bought his friend's factory -- it used to be Mort Levy's factory -- called Strong Wear Pants -- in Easton. GE: Was the fabrics the large part of the business? SB: Yes. That was the business! GE: So the main thing was the fabrics--.. SB: Manufacturing knitted goods which he made for swimming suit factories, ladies and men's underwear factories, clothing factories -- where they used knit goods, not woven. GE: Tell me the difference? SB: See, this is a knit -- that's woven SC: And this is cotton knit. SB: That's a different kind of knit than he made, I forgot what you call it. SC: Double knit? SB: No double knits, he had double knits. There is a name for it -- it's not like this kind of knit. GE: His customers -- were often the local factories in town - who were making the clothes. SB: Not necessarily. GE: His customers were all over the world. He was one of the large knit fabric producers. SB: Exactly, he had factories all over. SC: But he did own factories that produced finished goods. SB: He had a couple smaller factories that produced. But that wasn't his main business - It was knitting and dying. He knitted the fabric and then dyed it to the color that he wanted. He had his own dying right there. SC: And did his designers then design fabric that had different patterns to it? SB: Right. SC: He was an entrepreneur. SB: Yes he was. There were things used for bathing suits that would have been different from underwear or dresses or for children's things. SC: Do you have any stories about the people you met all over the world who were his customers? SB: From whom he bought his machines -- and customers. We used to go out to California a couple times a year and meet with his people out there -- he had people out there -- he had salesmen out there, and also customers out there. We had good times. SC: Does anything stand out in your mind--any experience that you had when you were traveling? SB: We had wonderful conventions out in California, in Germany, in Italy -- machine shows -- in England. All over -- yes, these things all stand out -- we had wonderful times out there with the people from whom we bought the machines and with people who became our friends -- very close friends. GE: How about Harry's education? SB: He graduated from high school and then he went two years to night school -- night college. GE: Was that after the war on the G.I. Bill or was that before the war? SB: Well, he graduated high school before the war. GE: Right, but how about college? SB: It could have been after. He went to a school for design -- I forget what you call it. GE: Like -- I know in Philadelphia -- there is the Philadelphia College of Textiles and Science. SC: What was your husband's business philosophy? Did he have certain ideas that he talked about? SB: He was fair, very honest in his business. GE: When you say he was fair and honest, are you saying with his suppliers, customers, employees? SB: With everyone. One time he made a deal with someone -- I don't know what happened, but it would have meant that if he went through with it, he would have lost a lot of money. And he did -- because he gave his word. I can't give you the exact details about the deal, but he did go ahead and made good on what he said. He was very honest and fair with business. SC: Did you have any conversations about his business? SB: No, I didn't, I didn't mix into his business very much. I was there when he needed me, and I was helpful. We had some transactions in Paris, and my husband didn't speak French. I took French in school, and we weren't allowed to speak English. That was years ago when I was in college. I hadn't spoken French in years and years, but it came back to me little by little when we went to France. I did help him as much as I could along those lines because he didn't know a word of French. And it did work out fine, we did culminate the deal and that was it. GE: I don't think we had a chance to talk much about your experience growing up in Allentown. Tell us a little bit about you and your family - when you were a young girl, what the Jewish community was like, what the larger Allentown community was like. SB: Well, I'll tell you, I had a very good childhood. I had two wonderful parents. I had two wonderful sisters and an adorable brother. I had a very nice life as a child. In those days you didn't have to be afraid to go out at night. GE: Excuse me, you were the oldest? SB: I'm the oldest. And, it was a nice life, you didn't have to be afraid. It was a clean life. We always had a good time. As children, my parents would take us every summer to Burlington. We rented a cottage on Lake Champlain. My mother's family was there, so we had great times. Her family would always come to be with us at the bay, which is right outside of Burlington, Malletts Bay, right on the lake. GE: How long did you stay there? Was it for a week, a month? SB: No, that was for the summer. My father would take us up. In those days going to Burlington was like going to Europe today. It took us two to three days to get there. We'd stay in those little cabins -- he would take us and come back six weeks later and then another trip to take us home. So we had a wonderful time, it was right on the lake. We made friends. There were a lot of Canadian people coming down from Montreal. We made lots of friends and had a very wonderful childhood. SC: Can you spell the town that you stayed at outside of Burlington? SB: Malletts Bay SC: Can you spell that? SB: M-A-L-L-E-T-T-S B-A-Y. GE: No, I didn't spell that right. SB: It was about from here to New York to go to Montreal. So we'd go up there during the summer and spend a day in Montreal, usually, and took little trips around Burlington. We had fun, we had lots of fun. GE: And your father's business managed to stay okay during the Depression? SB: They managed -- they managed to be fine -- they wound up good. We never realized how good they were -- we were never told as children their situation. We were just happy for them. I had good parents. It wasn't like today, we didn't have the problems that we have today -- none of the problems with any of our children. It was a good life, a simple life, my parents never spoiled us, and I never realized the position they were in until after my father passed away. We enjoyed what we had. My father was in contact with all of the factories. As children, he'd bring us shoes, he'd bring us different things from different factories. It was a big deal. We'd get new shoes for Passover, new shoes for Rosh Hashanah and new shoes for other times, and we were thrilled. When I gave up my shoes, they looked new because we had an appreciation in those days. Today the children have everything and don't appreciate anything. To this day, I have lots of shoes -- maybe three hundred pairs. My husband used to call me an elf! But, every pair of shoes is like the day I got them almost, except the heels from driving. It was a different way of life, it really was. SC: When you were a child did you play mostly with kids in the neighborhood, or did you have more connections to the Jewish community? SB: I used to walk, when we lived on 5th Street - I used to go to Hebrew School. I used to walk myself coming home at night -- I don't know if you know Allentown -- from Fifth Street, the north end -- we lived below Washington on Fifth. I walked from there all the way to Sixth and Chew -- this would be where the Jewish Community Center was -- myself to go to Hebrew School at night. In the winter, it was dark -- I never had any qualms about walking. Sometimes, my mother, if she could, would meet me partway. If she couldn't, sometimes my Hebrew teacher, I can't remember her name, a lovely lady, she'd walk me partway. Anyway, I never gave it a thought -- who'd walk today? What little child would walk today? GE: I don't know if they can't or if we don't let them. But, whatever it is. SB: It's not safe. GE: You're absolutely right. You mentioned that your family at that time belonged to Sons of Israel and then when you moved you belonged to Temple Beth El. Why did you change? SB: I guess for convenience. GE: That's what I was wondering. And at that time tell me a little bit about the Jewish community -- the size of the community, the cohesiveness -- what it was like, where did everyone live? When you were a young girl, were there a lot of Jewish families? SB: Yes, there were. GE: And then when you moved to 16th Street? SB: I'll tell you, when we moved up to Beth El, we went to that little Temple on Walnut Street. Remember I told you. GE: Right, yes. SB: And of course there weren't that many people. And the whole Temple was, I don't think it was bigger than this room here. That was as a Temple really, so if all the people came, maybe they filled it. But that wasn't that many people. Then of course as we kept going to Beth El on 17th and Hamilton, it kept growing and growing. And that's why we thought- my nephew is the one by the way- is the one who was instrumental in building the new Temple. Beautiful isn't it? GE: Yes, yes. SB: Have you been in it? SC: I've seen pictures and we've been by it. SB: But you weren't in it? SC: No, I wasn't in it. GE: I'll take you over to see it. SB: You have to go over. SC: Yes, yes. SB: So, then it grew of course. GE: Right. SB: And we did, we went to Temple. In the beginning when we were younger of course we went with my parents. And then, of course I've been going all my life to Beth El. I stayed with Beth El. And now I don't go that much. I've lost some enthusiasm to go, but I go for the holidays, you know. GE: Right. SB: And I'll always go, I went to Temple. And we went to the Center as young people, I went more when the Jewish Community Center was on 6th and Chew. I went there more. I was younger then, and I was more active in different things. But I'm not that active in the center, I'm a life member of the Temple of Hadassah of Beth El. But now I don't go that much. SC: Was the building of Beth El at 6th and Chew, that isn't where Union Baptist Church is now? SB: Union Baptist Church? SC: Yeah, it would be the Community Center if you are standing at 6th and Chew at the Community Center. SB: 6th and Chew? Are you talking about the old Community Center? You mean the Church across the street? SC: Yeah. SB: Yeah it was there. SC: That was it. SB: Yeah it was there. GE: No, that was the old Center? In other words, the JCC is not the same building. It was already there. SC: Oh that church, that was already there. SB: Yeah I think so, I don't know. SC: We keep trying to figure out where the synagogue was at 6th and Chew. SB: Oh no the synagogue wasn't. SC: Just the JCC was there. SB: Yeah. SC: Oh. SB: The synagogue was at 6th and Tilghman. SC: Tilghman, okay. SB: Down, going north. SC: Okay, yes, going north. SB: Quite a few blocks. SC: Oh okay. SB: Yeah. GE: I'll drive down with you. I'm curious myself. SC: Yeah we have to figure that out. GE: Because when I came to town already it was at 17th and Hamilton and the JCC was at 22nd and Tilghman. SB: Right. Now they are trying to sell the Jewish Community Center. SC: Again, yeah. SB: That's a shame, I'm sad to see that go. SC: Yeah. SB: What's going to be there? Do you know? GE: Well if they are able to sell it, the idea is that they are going to move further west. SB: They are going to move, really? GE: Yeah, because it's already a 60 year old building so you know it really starts showing its age. SB: Yeah. The thing is they always do everything, when they are doing the Temple or they are doing something else. And people don't have the money for everything. You know what I mean? GE: Right, right. SB: It's not good timing. GE: Right. Tell us about your education. Where did you go to school? SC: That's what I was going to ask. SB: My education- first I went to the school at 5th and Washington St.. It was called Garfield. At that time they told me I had the highest IQ of anyone in the school they had had. GE: Wow. SB: So that was nice to hear as a youngster. Then we moved, and I went up to Raub Jr. High School. And then from there I went to Allentown High School. GE: And I'm assuming you were, were you a very good student? SB: National Honor, yeah. SC: Right. SB: From there I went to Cedar Crest College on a full scholarship, and I was given something that nobody ever heard of. I was given unlimited cuts. So every Monday I wasn't in school. I was engaged at the time, so after I don't know how long, they took it away from me. I left school, listen to this, in my senior year, to go with my husband at the time. He was going overseas so I went to work in Maryland at the- whats the name of the place- GE: But you went overseas? SB: No, I didn't go overseas. I went with him first to the improving ground. And I worked as a secretary to a colonel there. I left school in my senior year. I left college, Dean's honor list, and National Honor. I had one semester to finish. I broke my parents' heart, I realized, but I wanted to badly be with my husband. And I never went back to school, because first of all, when I could have after that, I became pregnant with children and this and that. Three children. And when I could have, they had discontinued my course, for one thing. And, already I didn't have the patience really. You lose it, you get out of the swing of it and it's difficult to get back. GE: Sure. What were you studying? SB: I majored in psychology. I wanted to be a doctor, actually. And I also took a business course. And then after my husband was overseas for four years, I was secretary to a colonel here at - what's the name of the place- Consolidated Vultee, where they made the airplanes. SC: Ah, yes. SB: I was secretary to a colonel, I was secretary to a group called Baker, Gindler, and Hagzeh-- three consultants. GE: Is this now back in Allentown? SB: Yes, Baker, Gindler, and Hagzeh, until they wanted to date me, and I was already engaged and married. I left them. Then I was secretary at the Bethlehem Jewish Community Center in charge of the office. And then at that time, I think my husband came home. SC: So can you talk a little bit about, were you involved in the community, the larger community, or the Jewish community? SB: I was active, yes I was active as a young woman, I was active in Hadassah. I was on the board. I was active at Temple Beth El. I was the secretary for a number of years. Well, I wasn't active at the- I was a life member at the Jewish Community Center. But I wasn't active per se. And I was active with my own things, you know, my own friends and family. SC: Right, you own life. How about Harry? Was he very active in either these organizations or professional organizations? SB: Yes, he was. GE: What was he involved in? SB: He was part of the Jewish Federation, he was part of the different organizations- I can't think of a name. GE: Like Rotary or any of those? SB: No, I don't think Rotary. GE: Like the Chamber of Commerce? SB: Yes, the Chamber of Commerce. I don't know, I'm trying to think of what else he was active in. SC: Was he active in politics? Any of the political elements of the Lehigh Valley? SB: No, not politics. GE: How about the association? Any kind of association, like fabric. You know, a manufacturers association? SB: Yeah, I think he was, but I couldn't tell you the names of organizations. That I can't. GE: Okay. And also it sounds like you had a very nice - SB: Social life. We had a very nice social life. GE: Yes. SB: That we did, with friends and family. GE: Right, right. SC: So do you have any other questions? GE: You know what, I'm just looking. Um, anything, any good memories that you have about his employees, at all? Any of the employees, local employees? First of all, how many? Do you know what was the size, how many workers there were? SB: He had a big factory. See this is why I said, I didn't think I could give you too much information. GE: That's okay. SB: No, let me think. I would safely say that between the three different businesses that he owned, I would say that he hired maybe a couple thousand. SC: Wow, that's big. SB: Yeah, maybe more, but I don't want to say more. GE: Now when you say the three businesses, it's the fabric- SB: Yeah and then the two other factories. GE: And then the two factories. SB: Yeah so safely I would say maybe a couple thousand. GE: That's big. SC: So how has Allentown changed in your life and since the end of manufacturing, do you think? SB: It's a big change in my life. Well, you mean the end of his business when he got out of business? SC: Well, in your whole life, let's start with that. How has Allentown changed since you were young? SB: How about what? SC: Allentown has changed since you were young. SB: Oh yes, of course. There's so much more going on in Allentown now. So much more building. So many more businesses and organizations and growth in the city of Allentown. Even in the population, people have come here from New Jersey and New York. They come here to live, because it's better living for them. They come from New York and New Jersey, there is great growth here in Allentown. SC: Is it a different climate than when you were a child? SB: Yes it is. It's a different climate like it is all over the world, unfortunately. And, more things happening here that shouldn't be happening, but, there is good growth and there is also evil growth, which is throughout the world now unfortunately. How about a piece of chocolate, in between? SC: *laughs* GE: *laughs* SC: And how about with the needle trades and textiles leaving Allentown, going down south first, and then going overseas? Do you think that has had an effect on people? SB: Definitely, yeah, sure, a lot of people lost their jobs, or had to move out of town because of it. Or, in general their life changed, certainly. SC: So I have two really sort of filmy questions, just feeling questions, first of all what do you value in life most? SB: What do I what? SC: Value in life most. SB: I value my family. That's number one in my life. My friends, and I am blessed to have a wonderful family. Both my own personal family and my nieces, nephews, their families, and my own families, and also my wonderful friends, as well as terrific doctors who have kept me living, and to whom I really owe my life. And nurses, and I'm blessed to have them as my personal friends. I am. GE: That's nice. SC: And what have you- has made you feel the most creative? SB: Pardon? SC: The most creative in your life. SB: The most creative in my life. Well, my children are creative, in their own way, each one. I appreciate that in them, in each one. My oldest is in a videotaping business. *the electricity goes out* SB: What's that? GE: I don't- maybe is that camera still going? SB: Huh? GE: You know what, it's raining and it sounds like we're getting a little bit of a storm. SB: That's probably what it is. GE: Yeah. SB: What was I saying? GE/SC: Your children being creative. SB: Yeah, my oldest son is in the videotaping, has a nice videotaping. He's been on the radio since he was ten years old. And he's followed through with a videotaping business. GE: Right. SB: He doesn't do it himself so much anymore, but he did. GE: Right, what kind of videos does he- SB: Well, for instance if you have a wedding, a bar mitzvah, a party, he'll do that. GE: Right, okay yes, yes. SC: So we could have had him here today doing the videotaping. SB: Yes. SC: He could have done the videotaping. SB: And my second son is a um- no that word always escapes me- he's a-uh he advises. GE: A consultant? SB: Consultant. GE: Right, okay. SB: That word, I don't know why, I have a mental block. He's a consultant for medical companies, the government, the state, he does that. My youngest son works for a jet propulsion lab. They are the ones affiliated with setting up the rockets. And they are also affiliated with the University of- I think it is Southern California or California- and he is a lawyer. He is in their legal department. GE: So wonderful. SB: So they're each creative in their own way. My husband was very creative. GE: Right. And in SB: And- GE: What ways have you been creative? What makes you feel most creative? SB: What makes me creative? Having children- *electricity goes out* SB: Oh my gosh, look at that. Having children. Oh my gosh. GE: So being a mom. SC: Okay, it just went off for a second. SB: And I like to write. SC: Write? SB: I do, I write. And uh, GE: Tell us what kind of writing do you do? SB: Well just, uh, personal. GE: Like a journal? SB: No. GE: Or letters? SB: Letters, and for occasions, and things like that. GE: Oh, isn't that lovely. SB: I just wrote a letter for Lisa. GE: Oh. SB: For her, you know she had a granddaughter. GE: Oh. SB: For the naming. GE: Isn't that beautiful. SB: Named after Perry, my sister. GE: You know what, I did hear that, that her oldest son had that, is that correct? SB: Yeah. GE: Isn't that nice. SB: Yeah they had a baby, but whatever. SC: And I say creative, but in a sense, what has made you feel most satisfied in your life other than your children? SB: Well, my marriage was good, up to a point. And, oh what can I tell you. I'm just satisfied with my life. I have a positive attitude and I'm just happy to be here. And I feel there's so much good you can get out of life if you look for it, even though there are adversities in everybody's life, for sure. And, I'm happy with what's going on. I have to overcome certain adversities, but I'm happy. GE: Beautiful. SC: Thank you so much. SB: Thank you for being with me. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Shirley Berman, June 24, 2013
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Shirley Berman talks about growing up in Allentown. Her father’s ancestors (Malenovsky family) were among the first Jewish settlers in Allentown. Elias Malenovsky was a founder of the first synagogue in Allentown down on 2nd St. Later, Shirley married Harry Berman. Harry owned Fair-Tex Mills, one of the largest knitting mills in the U.S. and the first to use computerized textile machines. Shirley proudly shared that she accompanied her husband regularly on business trips throughout Europe and always enjoyed entertaining customers and vendors.
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LVTNT-32
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2013-05-24
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
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Seth Katzman
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5.4 May 25, 2016 Seth Katzman, May 25, 2016 LVTNT-29 1:07:35 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Seth Katzman Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 KatzmanSeth_20160525 1.0:|19(2)|38(13)|61(6)|82(2)|105(3)|130(7)|155(7)|178(19)|203(3)|228(4)|251(4)|274(9)|297(5)|324(4)|347(14)|374(8)|399(12)|424(6)|445(12)|472(6)|499(2)|526(2)|551(8)|574(8)|599(13)|624(15)|649(11)|672(10)|695(14)|722(7)|737(3)|754(14)|777(11)|806(3)|833(13)|870(3)|901(6)|924(18)|947(7)|972(6)|995(15)|1022(3)|1051(4)|1076(9)|1105(11)|1136(13)|1163(15)|1194(11)|1221(10)|1248(14)|1277(3)|1304(4)|1329(2)|1360(8)|1387(8)|1412(3)|1433(14)|1460(5)|1487(4)|1512(10)|1539(13)|1566(3)|1587(12)|1614(8)|1643(15)|1672(9)|1699(14)|1702(9) 0 https://youtu.be/UqqG8LRCHbA YouTube video 0 Katzman's Life Before the Business Today is May 25 and we’re going to start with and this is 2016, and we’re going to start with your life story because it interweaves for what we’re doing and for instance, we are looking at women this year and so we want to have all of this even though it’s long. So if you would give your full name, where you were born, and when you were born and talk about your early life and from the time you were born and any memories that you think have been important. 0 303 Education at FIT [A]nd at that point before I went to the business, my father said well you should go to FIT, and FIT is the Fashion Institute of Technology. So what happened, my brother, since I was going to the business, my brother had graduated before I had, he was five years older than I was. He was in the Peace Corps and doing different things, hadn't really settled on anything he wanted to do, and he said ‘well since you're going into the business, maybe I'll try with you.’ So we both went to FIT...
 ; 0 412 History of the Business Just to give you a little background about our business, my father was actually in the business a long time, in the apparel business. He wasn't in this particular business that long that he had. My father and my uncle had started a business, really manufacturing t-shirts to start out with. They had a couple different plants and that’s one of the reasons he moved to Allentown. 0 492 Managing the Pine Grove Contracting Business So when I came along, my brother and I both started in the business. He had a manager at the time, he didn’t plan to replace his manager, he figured we would learn the business with him and then see what would happen. As it turned out, after about two months my manager decided he was going to go into his own business, in the flower business or something. So he quit after two months, so I ended up taking over the production there. 0 595 Change and Competition in the Garment Industry That changed relatively quickly in a year or two because what happened is the garment industry itself started to change a lot. You had a lot of competition from the South, and then within a couple years you had competition from Chinatown and overseas. In the beginning, Chinatown was actually cheaper than overseas because they never paid minimum wage in Chinatown, and it was always a problem there. We were a union plant so I always had to deal with the union and the employees. 0 848 Adaptation and Growth: From Associations to Private Labor So really what happened is in my father's business, I said he had one customer, and I used to go into New York every, pretty much every other week, what was needed. Because they helped me learn the business actually about the pricing, and they gave me different things to price, and I worked for manufacturing people there because they gave us a lot of different stuff. We did a tremendous amount of styles. Women's clothing had a tremendous amount of style, and it was dresses. What took place in a few years was they moved away from Pennsylvania doing manufacturing, so I had to find other work so I would go to New York City and knock on the different doors to make sure that I had enough work for the plant I started doing different things. 0 1075 The End of the Pine Grove Business—Offshoring to Mexico But then essentially when it got to be the later 90s, everything went offshore, and I couldn’t stay in Pine Grove. And even though I had good relationships with the union and the help, and we were in Pine Grove a long time, I felt bad in a way. You know, but I tried to do what I could and we transitioned out, and I ended up closing the factory over there. I still moved to Allentown, I moved my operations to Allentown, but I had to go to Mexico.
 ; 0 1301 '80s-90s: Struggling Production in Reading and Pine Grove SC: I’d like to take you back to your family history, as far back as you know, but I have one question, which union?
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 ; SK: ILGWU
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 ; SC: Okay, that’s what I thought, but yes, and also, there was another question I had with how far was Pineville from Reading?
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 ; SK: Pine Grove from Reading is…
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 ; SC: Pine Grove, I’m sorry.
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 ; SK: Pine Grove from Reading is approximately 45 miles
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 ; SC: Because they had all the outlets by that time, all the stores and the business, weren’t they? Reading was still producing when you were...?
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 ; SK: Actually my uncle was still in business at that time. He was in manufacturing, but they had problems also with that, even the manufacturing. 0 1455 Family History SC: Could you talk about the names you know in your dad’s family and your mother’s family? Where they came from as far back as you know.
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 ; SK: As far back as I know. Quick thing I never knew my grandparents really. I knew one grandparent ; my great-grandparents I never knew. They were long gone. My great grandparents-- actually from one side was from Poland I think. My parents . . . 0 1900 Legacies: Garment Businesses in the Lehigh Valley Today SK: You know, there’s another guy that is really Jewish, but not Jewish in a way, that might still be working in the Valley.
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 ; GE: Although it has happened to be mostly Jewish, it doesn’t have to be.
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 ; SK: There’s a guy here that’s still working actually, that does apparel stuff, he does embroidery, which is Lilly daVid. Now I don’t know if David, cause I haven’t talked to them in years, but I believe that they are still there because they do embroidery, they used to do embroidery for me all the time. 0 2025 From Rick Knit to Summit Station Manufacturing GE: Thank you. So a couple of follow-up questions, one,you’ll share those stories about the Miss America and about the other. Couple of follow up questions. One, what was the name of your businesses? Initially you were manufacturers right?
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 ; SK: Initially we were always contractors. We started out as a contractor.
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 ; GE: You did, your father did?
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 ; SK: My father did. And the name of the business was Summit Station Manufacturing.
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 ; GE: That was your father with the T-shirts? Correct?
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 ; SK: Well, no, my father and the T-shirts started out as Rick Knit. 0 2283 Expanding the Business: Goods and Clientele GE: Well do you want to share with us - so then it was really a matter, if I understand correctly, it was the matter of keeping your cost down, and that’s how you tried the Mexico...
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 ; SK: The beginning problem was actually getting work that you could actually make at a price. And I would go to different places and like I said, I ended up doing a lot of different things. I expanded out of dresses. I started doing blouses, sportswear. I went into running suits. I went into anything that we thought we could make. We actually made outerwear, too. For LandsEnd, we actually made outerwear, that’s how I got started with LandsEnd. 0 2568 Working with LandsEnd GE: So during this time, if I understand correctly, these were where you were doing a lot of small runs?
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 ; SK: Yeah, my business was [doing] a lot of small runs. That’s how I really survived. Later on by 1995 when I hired an outside sales person and he said I have contacts I think we can do business. And the reason he knew me was because when we started he found out I did some smaller runs through some of these guys. And we connected, I went to New York, I used to go to New York a lot. And in New York, we started talking and his name was Jim Stabile and he was working for somebody else at the time and said you know, I bet we could get together and do something. And, you know, you kind of listen, and they never do it and then one day, he called me and said I think we could do something, you want to come in? And we got to talking, and I said okay if you think you can do this, I’ll do this and that's what happened. We started getting sales and then I went out to LandsEnd. I would go out with him, and we would restructure some deals, and we actually got some contracts and that’s how I got started. 0 2981 Life After the Business GE: So at that point, you’re about 50 I assume. And so I’m just kind of wondering if you wanted to share with us what you’ve done since, um you know, in terms of how did you personally have to adapt, right?
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 ; SK: Well, when I left I actually liquidated the plant. I actually walked away. It cost me a lot of money, really a lot of money. Okay but, I almost thought that I would have to declare bankruptcy. Because of how I handled most of my customers, and I had good relationships with everybody, I was able to pay, repay everybody and that type of thing. When I say everybody, there’s only one person I didn’t really repay at the end, but they actually should have paid me. 0 3296 The Jewish Community in the Apparel Industry GE: So a couple of last questions before Sue gets back to you. What do you think about the community here? How has the community been affected, in terms of when it was 1950, when you were very young, there were many families that were in this business.
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 ; SK: You’re right, the community has definitely changed a lot. When I was growing up as a kid there were a lot of small businesses. In fact when I went to the synagogue, even in the Jewish community there were a lot of small businesses. In fact that was the majority of people, you had doctors and lawyers but the majority of givers, the people involved in the community, were all small business people. On that, in fact a lot of the givers to the [Jewish] Federation were from the garment business. 0 3750 Katzman's Artistry and Family Values SC: Okay, so I really only have two more questions, so one is what has made you feel most creative in life?
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 ; SK: What has made me most creative in life?
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 ; SC: Given you a sense of satisfaction or creativity or whatever other word you want to add?
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 ; SK: It's a mix, it's a mix of things for me because essentially I would say my family has been one of my key satisfactions in my life, no matter what because they have always been there, and I always have enjoyed them, proud of them. But one of the things, the garment business was a big change for me because I was a shy little guy. I'm still quiet, but it made me do things I would never do. 0 MovingImage Seth Katzman shares fond memories growing up in Allentown during the 1950s and 1960s. While attending Brandeis University Seth decided that rather than pursue his original plan to attend medical school, he would instead take over his father’s apparel contracting business. His father wanted to retire anyway. Seth’s older brother joined him initially in the business. Not many years later, the traditional sewing contracting business in Pennsylvania was diminishing and Seth had to adapt to the changing environment. Seth stayed in the apparel business until 1999, much later than many other contracting businesses in Pennsylvania. Interview with Seth Katzman, May 25, 2016 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is May 25 and we're going to start with and this is 2016, and we're going to start with your life story because it interweaves for what we're doing and for instance, we are looking at women this year and so we want to have all of this even though it's long. So if you would give your full name, where you were born, and when you were born and talk about your early life and from the time you were born and any memories that you think have been important. SETH KATZMAN: My name is Seth Katzman. I was born on March 28, 1950 in Brooklyn, New York in Methodist Hospital there. My family moved to Allentown when I was one-year-old so basically I consider myself an Allentownian, believe it or not. The rest of my family did live in New York at the time, probably around Queens. Most of my family, I should say my immediate family, was from New York at the time there, so when we moved out to Allentown, I should say my parents moved out to Allentown, it was a big move because everybody was in New York. It was unheard of that somebody would move to the Lehigh Valley away from the city. So essentially I grew up in Allentown, I went to the public schools in Allentown, we were members of Temple Beth El in Allentown. I went to Hebrew school at Temple Beth El, I got bar-mitzvahed at Temple Beth El, I got married at Beth El. Unfortunately I buried my parents as well at Temple Beth El over there. I have a long history just being in the Lehigh Valley overthere. So as a kid my mother, my parents were always involved with the Temple and at the Center. Actually my mother was very active on that. My father was also on the board of different things, so as a family we always went to services on a somewhat regular basis. I went to Hebrew school and everything. So I had a pretty normal, safe and good childhood in Allentown. Actually, my parents moved to 29th and Liberty St. At that time that was almost the end of town. There weren't any houses past 30th Street. I used to play in the fields out back as a kid. As I was growing up they kept building more and more homes. A lot of my friends and I became friendly with a lot of kids. Basically what I said, I went to public school and really formed a lot of different friendships over the time and as time moved along, graduated from William Allen High School and went to Brandeis University. I graduated from Brandeis. At Brandeis, I made a fateful decision, which was not to go to medical school. So instead my father had a business at the time, and I knew he wanted to retire. I think what happened was one of the reasons I didn't go to med school was I was getting tired of school. But also at the time I was seeing Kathy and I decided that I don't know if I really want another 8 to 10 years in school before I get out. I knew my father wanted to retire and I kind of just said 'okay I'll try the business on that,' and that's how I got into the garment business over there. Because really the only work experience I had besides the garment business was that I was a waiter at camp one summer. That was my total work experience before the garment industry. But I started out really driving my father to work because he had health problems. And I think by senior year of high school, during the summer, I drove him all summer to work and I would work in the factory for no pay. Just helping out with whatever they had doing there. And I did that for - I think it was two summers I did that. One summer I went to art school because one of the things I got interested in at Brandeis was art. I was doing painting and different things. So that's how I really got exposed to start with the business. So when I graduated, like I said, I really didn't decide to go into the business until close to graduation, and at that point before I went to the business, my father said well you should go to FIT, and FIT is the Fashion Institute of Technology. So what happened, my brother, since I was going to the business, my brother had graduated before I had, he was five years older than I was. He was in the Peace Corps and doing different things, hadn't really settled on anything he wanted to do, and he said 'well since you're going into the business, maybe I'll try with you.' So we both went to FIT, and the problem with FIT was it was kind of interesting, the professors were nice but I had just done four years of school. My brother's really an intellectual type, he had done a lot of reading in school, he graduated from Boston University, and we both looked at these courses and said 'jeez this is kind of a little slow for us.' And then it was good with the technical courses because we didn't have the technical background for the apparel. But the other courses they wanted us to take-- marketing and some different things-- were really I think really elementary to us. And we said could we speed this up, and what really happened was they didn't let us really speed it up. But what we did was we took the technical courses, kind of skipped the other courses, and by the end of the semester we were only going like one day a week. We were trying to just do technical things then we would just go home and work at that time. So by the time June came, we were done with FIT after about a year of doing that. We did make some interesting contacts and got to meet different professors and different things. So the summer 1973 I would say is when I started really working full time. When I started out, my father had a manager of his business. Just to give you a little background about our business, my father was actually in the business a long time, in the apparel business. He wasn't in this particular business that long that he had. My father and my uncle had started a business, really manufacturing t-shirts to start out with. They had a couple different plants and that's one of the reasons he moved to Allentown. I think they had a place in Hazleton, a place in Allentown, and a place in Reading. My uncle I think ran the place in Reading, and my father kind of took care of the ones in Hazelton and in Allentown. Rather than travel all the time from New York, he decided to move to the Valley. So as time went along they built their business, and I think beside t-shirts they started making golf shirts and after a certain period of time I think my father and my uncle had a falling out. My uncle bought my father out, but I think my father . . . I'm trying to think, 1965, he kind of got out of business but decided he couldn't retire. He didn't want to stay retired, so he ended up buying a contracting business in Pine Grove, Pennsylvania, which was a dress business contracting business, and that was the business I started in. So when I came along, my brother and I both started in the business. He had a manager at the time, he didn't plan to replace his manager, he figured we would learn the business with him and then see what would happen. As it turned out, after about two months my manager decided he was going to go into his own business, in the flower business or something. So he quit after two months, so I ended up taking over the production there. It was an experience because what did I know about production, I really had to learn everything from there. So at that point, I started to really do what I had to do to run the business. I had to learn all the things about pricing, production, and sewing. I learned how to sew ; I learned everything in the business. My father actually didn't know how to do those things. He knew the outside of the business-- he knew how to price, he knew about the sales part-- but he really didn't know the inside sewing part. So I had to run that, so that's really what I got to do. So it didn't take me too long, I mean I kind of started doing it. I went to New York on a frequent basis to learn about the buying from our manufacturer. At the time we were strictly a contractor. My father really only had one customer, and it was a question of how much you can get out the door. So it was a question of how good you were, were you doing your planning and production, and doing that. And that's really kind of how we made money was getting your production done, and if you had it priced right, and you did the quality right. That changed relatively quickly in a year or two because what happened is the garment industry itself started to change a lot. You had a lot of competition from the South, and then within a couple years you had competition from Chinatown and overseas. In the beginning, Chinatown was actually cheaper than overseas because they never paid minimum wage in Chinatown, and it was always a problem there. We were a union plant so I always had to deal with the union and the employees. We had about 50-75 employees. I think when I started it was 75 employees, and it kind of whittled down a little bit for various reasons which took place, but we had a fairly sizable operation for what we were doing. It was, as it was, antiquated-- it was an old building. We kept it in fairly good shape ; my father put air-conditioning in. It was fairly comfortable in the building and for the employees over there except when you were in the pressing room ; it didn't matter whether you had air conditioning or not. It was very hot, so as I learned that, after a year my brother decided he didn't like the business and left over there. Kathy and I had moved to Schuylkill Haven to start out with because I'd be at the plant, we would start at 7 o'clock in the morning, I was at the plant 6 to 6:30. I opened the plant and basically started running the plant. It was very long days. It was most likely from 6:30 getting there or getting there at 7 to 5:30- 6:00 o'clock at night. Because even though the plant really ran from, they worked seven hours a day. They might have been done but there was over time and then there was planning I had to do, and calls I had to take, and stuff like that so I really was there pretty much the full day of work. By the second year, we decided we didn't like Schuylkill Haven, and we moved to the booming metropolis of Lebanon, Pennsylvania. After living in Lebanon for about two years, we decided since it took 40 minutes from Lebanon to Pine Grove each day, and half for the extra 15 minutes, I might as well go to Allentown, and that's what we did in 1976/75. We moved to Allentown and then I would commute to Allentown to Pinegrove. So I would get up at 5:30 in the morning basically and go to-- in some cases I would get up earlier and I would go to the gym--to do that but that's pretty much what I did for 25 year. SC: And as far as the workers at Schuylkill Haven, were they mostly Eastern European by that time? SK: No, all the workers, we were in Schuylkill County. It was all Pennsylvania Dutch, all-white. There were no minorities. You just didn't have it. It was very close knit, in fact, I was the outsider. My father and I were the outsiders really. There weren't really too many Jewish people in Pine Grove. Actually, the optometrist was Jewish. There were a couple of other contractors or manufacturer ; actually I would say contractors in Pine Grove. There was another manufacturer called Canoe Mfcg. They were Jewish as well, they live in Reading. They had a sizable operation over there. There was another outerwear plant called Fox-Knapp that had been there a long long time. They were probably the first ones there. They probably had about 100 employees. Canoe probably had about maybe, they had a lot of employees, they might have had 200, I'm not exactly sure. And there was another small contractor, there might have been another small contractor there at the time. But really what happened in a few years was just the three of us left, and actually by the time I left Pine Grove, I was the only one left as an apparel manufacturer in Pinegrove. So really what happened is in my father's business, I said he had one customer, and I used to go into New York every, pretty much every other week, what was needed. Because they helped me learn the business actually about the pricing, and they gave me different things to price, and I worked for manufacturing people there because they gave us a lot of different stuff. We did a tremendous amount of styles. Women's clothing had a tremendous amount of style, and it was dresses. What took place in a few years was they moved away from Pennsylvania doing manufacturing, so I had to find other work so I would go to New York City and knock on the different doors to make sure that I had enough work for the plant. I started doing different things so I started doing blouses, I started doing dresses, I kept doing dresses, I would do slacks, I did sportswear of all different types on that. I also took work that wasn't union at the time when I started to think. After 2 to 3 years there I became involved in the dress contracting unit there you know which was a manufacturer's association for dresses. It was out of Wilkes Barre, but it had all the contractors around Eastern PA. That might've been 200 of us. GAIL EISENBERG: Was that the Delins? SK: No, that wasn't Deins, that was Atlantic Apparel. This was the counterpart to Atlantic Apparel, it was the dress division. It was a similar group to Atlantic Apparel, but it did dresses. What I learned quickly was after a couple of years, actually I was the youngest guy on the Board. When I walked in, it was actually kind of funny. I was in my twenties and they put me on the Board, I was the youngest person where everybody else was probably in their 40s or 50s. There was a 20 year gap on that. I was the youngest guy there. So I started going to the meetings and after years of being there I said to them, 'you guys are not going to be around unless you change,' and they all looked at me and laughed because you know they were older and said 'we can't change, we can't do this.' I said, 'I don't think you can continue to operate the way you operate.' And really within another five years or so, I would say by 1988 or so, I left the Association and formed my own contract with the union. Because what happened is I didn't have union sources anymore for work, and I really was working totally non-union sources. What I really ended up doing was instead of being just a straight contractor, I started doing package deals and different things, I would take on different work. It took me a number of years to learn a lot of this because I took contracting work from other contractors, there were a lot of mistakes I made in different things, but what I realized was the contracting business was going to end, and I went into the private labor business. Then I ended up getting a salesman, I guess in the 90s, and basically we started doing business with LandsEnd and Eastern Mountain Sportswear. Ellesse and I really started to build a business. The problem was there was a lot of risk for me since I had to finance everything myself. So I was really a small player for these guys but what I was able to do is that I was able to do fairly good quality for them, which took a long time to do. I mean it was really painstaking to learn how to do it because I had a plant that was really a popular price plant that made very typical goods, and I had to make high-quality goods. And it was kind of painful to learn that, and get the operators to do it, and we did do it successfully for a while. But then essentially when it got to be the later 90s, everything went offshore, and I couldn't stay in Pine Grove. And even though I had good relationships with the union and the help, and we were in Pine Grove a long time, I felt bad in a way. You know, but I tried to do what I could and we transitioned out, and I ended up closing the factory over there. I still moved to Allentown, I moved my operations to Allentown, but I had to go to Mexico. And I did contracting with the union plants in Allentown for about a year or two. That's how long it lasted. I was in Mexico trying that. Even Mexico was a hard thing because maquiladora kind of went down there, started up from scratch, had to send our equipment down there, hire people, and do different things. It was a pretty risky proposition actually. And it was risky because the laborers in Mexico couldn't make the quality goods that I needed right away. It was a big learning curve for them. And it took me months to really train them and it cost a lot of money to do that. But I managed to make that happen there and we got some good contracts from LandsEnd and Eastern Mountain Sports. The problem I had, the Mexicans were great people, and they were good to work with except their time management was a little bit slower than what we're used to here, so they were always late in getting things done. And what would happen is it created a problem for me as far as you know. I got certain penalties from the manufacturers and the cost was contracts over there but I still managed to make it work. And we were going good for a year, and management would go good, and then what happens they went to China, and we ended up losing the contract. And when I saw that happen I kind of closed. I decided I was just going to get out and we had closed. I decided to close and liquidate it out and get out of it and that was another painful process, too. But it was a lot of pressure on me because essentially I had the bank loans, and they were sizable bank loans. I had a lot of pressure from LandsEnd and the others. In fact, we needed to approach Walmart, and Walmart said to me "you have to be able to take a million-dollar order, that's the minimum order we'll do with you." But I was taking million dollar orders because that is what I had to take even with LandsEnd to do business, and even the other people, you couldn't stay in business taking small orders. I knew I had to go to 5 to 10 million dollars minimum. We were probably at 5 or 6 million dollars but what happened is because of the credit lines, they really put a big demand on me and stress and one of the suppliers, I found out later actually, wasn't happy because they said even though I paid the bank and everybody on time, they just felt like I was too small, and I ended up losing a contract from LandsEnd, which I found out later. But when they cut me out of the program-- because I had done this program for five years-- that's when I decided to close. I said this isn't right. So what happened, I liquidated out about a year later, and they ended up coming back to me and said "do you want to do this" because what happened is that they got screwed because they couldn't get the quality from the other supplier but at that point I said "I'm done" and I had decided to close and extricate myself out of that. And that was the end of the apparel business for me really by 2000, by 1999 actually, it was over for me. SC: I'd like to take you back to your family history, as far back as you know, but I have one question, which union? SK: ILGWU SC: Okay, that's what I thought, but yes, and also, there was another question I had with how far was Pineville from Reading? SK: Pine Grove from Reading is-- SC: Pine Grove, I'm sorry. SK: Pine Grove from Reading is approximately 45 miles SC: Because they had all the outlets by that time, all the stores and the business, weren't they? Reading was still producing when you were...? SK: Actually my uncle was still in business at that time. He was in manufacturing, but they had problems also with that, even the manufacturing. Really what happened is most like in Pine Grove, Fox-Knapp had been there for 100 years. They made outerwear, there weren't a lot of guys making outerwear. And outerwear went strictly to China, overseas, Korea. They just couldn't compete, and they ended up closing the plant over there. And the same happened, now you could do manufacturing the children's wear, and I guess the same thing happened to them. They had problems and they just closed. I was actually, like I said, I was able to stay because what I did is I did certain work in Mexico, and I did certain work in Pine Grove, and also I had a good connection with my sales guys at LandsEnd. We were able to produce for them on a very quick turn. We had a special system that you can turn things in a couple days, and we were able to really get the goods for them but the problem is I was paying $17 an hour. They could land the goods, the whole product complete, for 10 bucks. There was no way you can compete. It didn't matter how good and how fast, the only thing I could do was on reorders. We were good, and they really depended on us, and that's how we lasted in Pine Grove as long as we did for that. Because the plant, the plant people were generally pretty good, you know, they tried to get the quality right and get it done, and we were pretty responsive to getting things done. And it's not that we didn't have problems, we did have problems. Generally you know we were pretty consistent for them on that. SC: Could you talk about the names you know in your dad's family and your mother's family? Where they came from as far back as you know. SK: As far back as I know. Quick thing I never knew my grandparents really. I knew one grandparent ; my great-grandparents I never knew. They were long gone. My great grandparents-- actually from one side was from Poland I think. My parents . . . my father's was from Poland then. My mother's was from Kiev, Ukraine, over there. So they came to New York City, the typical Eastside. My mother's side had a store in the Lower East Side, on Orchard Street where else on that. And their whole family worked that store for a long time. Actually they worked that store until the 80s ; I think on that type of thing until the neighborhood really changed over there. My father lived with my mother's family when they got married, so they lived in New York City. And it was hard on my father because my father did not work in the, he tried working in the business with them, and decided this isn't for him. So he started looking for other businesses. He worked in the bank for a while, he had a decent position in the bank, but he decided that he wanted his own business. So then he started looking for a different business. He probably failed in a couple businesses before he ended up connecting with my uncle working in the business room. But they still lived in New York with the mother's family till 1950 when they moved, 1951 when they moved to Allentown. So that was there. Now my father actually was from Detroit, and I don't know about his family too much on that type of thing. What I do know is my grandmother at the time lived in New York City as well. I never knew my grandfather, I think he passed away when I was one year old and I wouldn't know. They lived in the city. My grandmother-- I don't know exactly which business she was in-- whatever it was she was, pretty tough, tough woman. She lived in the city and she would come visit us every two weeks or something. She died right before my bar mitzvah on that but I remember her being there. She would cook and stuff, she liked seeing the kids and stuff. Really I didn't know her that well. We used to see her at the holidays. Whenever we had Passover and stuff, we would always go into the city with our families. We would have big seders, families would be there on that. And my mother and her sister were very close. My aunt lived in Belle Harbor and she didn't live two blocks from the beach. So every summer we'd all go visit her, extended stay because when I was a baby she would bring me along, and she had a nanny for me, and we would stay right in my aunt's [home] and go to the beach all summer. We would stay just about most of the summer over there, so my sister and my aunt were very close. We got very close with that side of the family. Still close today, really I just know my cousins. SC: Do you know their names? SK: Well my mother's name was Veiner over there, her sister was also a Veiner, but became a Weiss, and Weiss was our cousins on the other side over there. Now her husband was an optometrist. They lived in Belle Harbor for 30/40 years, whatever, they were there a long time. And their kids grew up there ; we became very friendly with their kids. They had two boys, Alan and Fred. Fred became a doctor, moved to California. Alan stayed in the New York area, he became an accountant. Fred has passed away since then but I know the other families in California still keep in touch with them in California. Alan, we still keep in touch with him. He's still in the city but his kids, one's in Washington, the other's in Hawaii over there. So really that's pretty much, or we're pretty close there. I have other family members in New York, which we still occasionally see, a lot of cousins over there. One of the cousins was also in the garment business. He was like a rep selling different things for a long time. I think that was it, everyone else was not. The other part of the family stayed in the store actually. My father's side he had four other brothers, most of them stayed in the city as well. One of them was a banker actually at Sterling National Bank, and he became the president or vice president, he's high up that for a long time. His other brother had another dry goods store where he sold for a long time in New York, as well as another store, which he sold. And his other brother died younger. I don't know what he was in, he was doing something else but he died when I was much younger from that type of thing. SC: Do you know when your grandparents or their parents came to the United States? About what year? SK: I think it was in the 1900s era, it's got to be the late 1800s when they first came because my parents were both born in the United States. So they had to have come back then and I don't exactly know the details. I only saw, you know my parents never really talked about it too much. It was interesting. Actually, there were a lot of things I saw just from looking through the stuff that they left when they passed away. But they never talked too much about their families and that type of thing. SC: They embraced the United States. I think that's it, do you want to trade positions? GE: You know what, what we're going to do is we're just going to take a minute just so that we can make sure that we're doing okay technology wise. SK: So we actually started making goods for the Miss America contest. And we also made stuff for the US Open. We had [Ivan] Lendl made in our unit, we made it as one of the manufacturers, to see them play. Also, Chrisy Evert had some stuff that we had, we made stuff for her as well. GE: I'm going to let you tell me in a minute. So just pause, we are going to take a break. SK: You know, there's another guy that is really Jewish, but not Jewish in a way, that might still be working in the Valley. GE: Although it has happened to be mostly Jewish, it doesn't have to be. SK: There's a guy here that's still working actually, that does apparel stuff, he does embroidery, which is Lilly daVid. Now I don't know if David, cause I haven't talked to them in years, but I believe that they are still there because they do embroidery, they used to do embroidery for me all the time. GE: The other one that I was going to reach out to, the other one I know, that I just heard recently is Harris Malkovsky. And I don't know if he does any, from what I understand he is a middle man. Does he just buy stuff..? SK: I don't know what Harris does, but he was in the garment business GE: Right, and here's something, so I thought I would reach out to him SK: Yeah, no he would be good too. But Stu Ullman, the reason I say that, his father started Canoe Manufacturing, which was in Pine Grove way before we were. So he was there for a long time. But he really is definitely a person to speak to. I think he still is in the garment business-- David Lilly. He's down off Lehigh Street there, I'm trying to think. SC: Are they still there? SK: Yeah, they are still there, I forget the name of the street that they are on. No, when you take a left, right before the diner's right there. There's a diner there, I can't remember the name of the street. SC: So it is not in Emmaus? SK: No, it's right in Allentown. SC: So it's right in Allentown. SK: It's 18103, if you look it up on the Internet, it will be there cause he's, I'm positive he's still there. GE: Thank you. So a couple of follow-up questions, one,you'll share those stories about the Miss America and about the other. Couple of follow up questions. One, what was the name of your businesses? Initially you were manufacturers right? SK: Initially we were always contractors. We started out as a contractor. GE: You did, your father did? SK: My father did. And the name of the business was Summit Station Manufacturing. GE: That was your father with the T-shirts? Correct? SK: Well, no, my father and the T-shirts started out as Rick Knit. GE: R-I-C-K-K-N-I-T? And that was the t-shirts, correct? SK: That was the t-shirts and the golf shirts. That's what evolved into the golf shirts business GE: And then just tell me the evolution? SK: The evolution was my father and uncle were partners in that business and then they were in it since the 50s. I think in 1965 they split, they had a parting and then essentially my father left that business. My uncle still continues to run the business with his son, then his son ran it for a long time. I don't think they are around anymore.They ran it for a while. Then what happened was my father looked for another business. He was thinking about different businesses, but he ended up buying a contract plant in Pine Grove and called it Summit Station Manufacturing. GE: So he called it Summit Station Manufacturing but you were always a contractor? SK: He was only a contractor and that's how I started, it was strictly contracting. He strictly worked for union jobbers at the time in New York City. It was all union work. GE: Right. And you said there was one customer, who was that customer? SK: That customer was called Dorby Fox. GE: Ok, Dorby, D-O-R-- SK: D-O-R-B-Y Fox over there. And they were on Seventh Avenue ; there were right in the garment industry GE: Right, and you said it was dresses? SK: Yes, all dresses. GE: And what type--was it very casual dresses? SK: No, they made all types of dresses. They made fancier dresses. They didn't make wedding dresses or anything like that. But they really made more popular priced dresses, stuff at JCPenney, Sears ; those were the type of dresses they were selling. That was the type of market they were selling. GE: And was it typically old women as opposed to teens? SK: Women, mostly women, yes, mostly women. GE: And how long did your brother stay in the business? SK: One year. GE: Oh, so he was only in it-- and you were in it with your father? Or once your father left, he was done? SK: What happened was when my brother and I both started, my father was still there. Like I said, my manager left after two months. I took care of the. . . it's just, I'm more detailed than my brother. My brother is way more marketing/sales person. I just picked up on the details, so I really became the plant manager, running it because you had to know a lot of details. It was a heck of a lot of details to know. So, I lasted about a year. We both shared, you know, the production duties. I basically helped tell my brother. My brother and I both helped in planning and ran the sewing. After a year, my brother said that he couldn't take it anymore and had enough and left. At the time we were living in Lebanon, and he just left and went to try to do something else. GE: And then it sounds like you stayed with this until the end. SK: Yeah, I did. What really happened is I ended up running the plant, not happened, I did run the plant. I was responsible for all of the production and everything. I was the one that scheduled everything and the quality and stuff like that. My father helped a little bit, but my father really had some health issues, so after a year or two, he left and went in the winter to Florida. So really in six months I was basically all on my own. Now he would call, and if I had a problem, but I was really on my own. And really within a couple of years he ended up retiring. I would say within five years he was not coming to the plant. GE: Well do you want to share with us - so then it was really a matter, if I understand correctly, it was the matter of keeping your cost down, and that's how you tried the Mexico... SK: The beginning problem was actually getting work that you could actually make at a price. And I would go to different places and like I said, I ended up doing a lot of different things. I expanded out of dresses. I started doing blouses, sportswear. I went into running suits. I went into anything that we thought we could make. We actually made outerwear, too. For LandsEnd, we actually made outerwear, that's how I got started with LandsEnd. I made their 'squall' jacket. Then, most of the squall jackets were made in California, but I made it because I could make it quicker and delivered the small runs quicker so basically that's how I got started with them. It was painful, it was really painful because making outerwear from a dress plant, it was really an experience to do, but these are things I undertook. I would take on a lot of different things that a lot of people would never do because I just felt like if I could find my niche, and that's what I was looking for. And in that process I ended up working on making warm-up suits and different things. I started with Ellesse and that was like a semi package thing, and I had to do different things for them. We made different warm up suits and they actually made stuff for the US Open, so that's how I got to make stuff for the US Open. They would make it for a lot of these tennis pros, and would wear their label. And we made a lot of their suits and stuff like that, like I said, [Ivan] Lendl. Actually, I think Lendl was not Ellesse, they worked for Mizuno also, that was another contact that I made. And Mizuno was a Japanese firm, and the craziest thing about them is they wanted to see the plant so they came from Japan to see my plant. So I will be there, and then he said, well can you stay a little bit later at 8 o'clock at night and he said, can you stay a little bit later, 11 o'clock at night. They came to my plant. They roll up in this big limousine, literally, I'm so serious. It was really funny. So 11 o'clock at night they come and look at my plant, literally. I was there until 12 o'clock/12:30 at night with them. And the reason I remember Lilly daVid is Lilly daVid would do the embroidery. Some we would first self-cut, then I would take it down myself to Lilly daVid a lot of the time or ship it. And Lilly daVid and Ellesse, they were really friendly, they would be there and what they did with Mizuno even, I think Lilly daVid had a party one time and all the people who were doing the contracting or designing for them got together and they served sushi. We all got together one day and had this big raw tuna that they had for lunch, and we all got you know for the customer we were there. It was actually my first time that we had sushi, and that's how I got to like sushi. It was pretty good sushi. But it was this huge raw tuna sitting there, and we had it and it was an interesting experience. But we made different things for different people at that time and that's how I started getting into manufacturing because I wasn't total manufacturing, but I had to buy certain things or do certain things for them, and I got to learn about how to put the garments together on different things. And I got a lot of different experiences during those things and also during that time there was another time when we made dresses for the Miss America pageant and that was on TV. And that was kind of a thrill because you made these dresses, and we shipped them out, and you actually got to see them wear them on TV. And I think we got mentioned on TV. But that was some of the other things that we did. GE: And when you did that, that was for whom? SK: I don't even remember anymore, to tell you the truth. It was another one of those deals that was, I don't know, it might have been through Ellesse through somebody again that we. It wasn't Ellesse actually, the dresses were not Ellesse. It was somebody else, and I don't remember anymore who it was for, another contractor. It was kind of a contract, wasn't totally a contract. It was a guy who sent me a couple of packages. A lot of things we had to do for them and package it and put it together. GE: So during this time, if I understand correctly, these were where you were doing a lot of small runs? SK: Yeah, my business was [doing] a lot of small runs. That's how I really survived. Later on by 1995 when I hired an outside sales person and he said I have contacts I think we can do business. And the reason he knew me was because when we started he found out I did some smaller runs through some of these guys. And we connected, I went to New York, I used to go to New York a lot. And in New York, we started talking and his name was Jim Stabile and he was working for somebody else at the time and said you know, I bet we could get together and do something. And, you know, you kind of listen, and they never do it and then one day, he called me and said I think we could do something, you want to come in? And we got to talking, and I said okay if you think you can do this, I'll do this and that's what happened. We started getting sales and then I went out to LandsEnd. I would go out with him, and we would restructure some deals, and we actually got some contracts and that's how I got started. GE: And even with LandsEnd was it, were these concerns small runs? SK: For LandsEnd we started on a small basis but I was totally responsible for everything. In other words, they would tell me where to order the fabric but I had to buy the fabric. I had to buy the trims. I had to do everything. And really at the beginning I had a hard time making it. I can't figure out how they put these deals together because I was always behind the 8-ball. It was very very tight for me, and they gave me a little bit more money because it was smaller runs, but I always couldn't get a bigger run because my pricing was wrong. Then one year he got a big contract and they said to me if you get this contract they will introduce me to the fabric person. They said you're going to get special pricing if you get this contract. And they gave me the pricing for the fabric. And I saw the pricing for that fabric, and I saw the pricing that I had to pay for the fabric, and it was a huge difference. And they said 'well if you buy the zippers this is the source you should use.' Actually they didn't tell me the source, they said, 'we want you to buy 25,000,' we're talking about big buying. And I said, 'if I do 25,000,' and I went to the zipper guy, I said, 'what price would you give me?' And all of a sudden, the prices were different. I mean substantially different, like way different. And that's how I got into the contracting. I realized, wait a second, there is a different world here. And then I started calling suppliers, and if the supplier couldn't do the business, they said, well try this supplier. And you know when I talked to . . . with a lot of people when I told them 25,000 or I'm not going to spend $10,000 with you, or $20,000 or you know. The fabric guys were not hundreds of thousands of dollars, the zipper guys were thousands of dollars, could be $20,000/30,000. It was now big orders for them. And when they said LandsEnd, they knew who I was doing it with. They said that they'll work with me and do the business and that's how I got into the contracting business. But there was a big difference in the beginning. I was struggling, you know, how could these guys do these? How they did it was through the buy-in because they get special deals. Everything was a special deal and unless you knew and had the contacts to it, and Mizuno couldn't do this again. I started with the bank in Pine Grove and I got started with a small line of credit and all of a sudden I got big lines of credit. Today you couldn't do that, by the way. They would never grant me the credit. I had million dollar lines of credit. Nobody today would grant you that thing, not in this world today. They do not do that then. I could finance nothing but I lived check to check. In other words. I'd have people who would look at me and say, I had these enormous checks come in, and I'd have to go to the bank, cash it. Even with LandsEnd, I would spend, I had a special deal with them that said, I have to get paid right away. And they worked with me, I got to give them credit, they did work with me, but they were tough. You had a problem with your quality, they would hold, no matter what, whatever you had with them, they would not pay you. If your quality wasn't good, they didn't just not pay, they rejected the lot, and you had to fix it or do whatever it was and they'd say, 'we're sending back 'x' amount and wouldn't give you the money.' And that's why I said at the beginning with LandsEnd, you really had to know, cause if you'd ship for me it was really critical because I was doing so much quantity. I had to make sure the quality was right and get paid. I've got to tell you another thing, so there is a lot of risk, or else a lot of people would have done what I did. Like I'm surprised I did what I did. I did it, and then I realized that I reached a certain point with Mexico. I got a lot of disappointment a lot of times, and I said I can't keep doing this, it was just too much risk for me. And that's what got me out of it, really. Just one day I realized, I said, I had everything on the line and nobody else had everything on the line, and I just said, I'm not going to do this anymore. GE: And what year was that? SK: It was 1999 that I finally pulled the plug. I just said, and it was tough because really I had been doing this, people were depending on it. I really gave it a shot because I knew when I went into the private labor because I knew that contracting was not going to make it. And I knew I had to go between 5 and 10 million dollars to survive, and I was close to doing it but the problem was with LandsEnd. The old way was you go in, you make a handshake with the guy, and they would live up to what they did. At LandsEnd, that's not what happened. I had contracts by the way, of a big size, but they didn't even live up to their contracts. That's what, when that happened to me, I said wait a second. Actually, at the end I had to sue Eastern Sportswear to get my money, and I had to settle with them because the smaller you are, you know you're not going to court at the end, even though they owed me the money, I settled with them, and gave them a discount to get out of it. And after that happened, that's when I said, I'm done. Cause I just didn't have the financial wherewithal you would need to have substantial money to do what you're doing. And not only that I couldn't rely on them, the garments had really changed. Even LandsEnd started to change within their organization. It wasn't the same. That was a real close-knit organization there, you almost became a part of their family in a way. If they counted on you ; they would tell you certain things. Not that they wouldn't demand and hammer you on the price but if they gave you the order, they would cut you certain breaks. They would help you with the money if you said you needed the money on some things, and if you delivered for them, they would help you. But after that happened, I said I can't count on this anymore and stopped. But they were a good organization to work with, it did help me, but it changed, the whole world changed. Everything went overseas. GE: So at that point, you're about 50 I assume. And so I'm just kind of wondering if you wanted to share with us what you've done since, um you know, in terms of how did you personally have to adapt, right? SK: Well, when I left I actually liquidated the plant. I actually walked away. It cost me a lot of money, really a lot of money. Okay but, I almost thought that I would have to declare bankruptcy. Because of how I handled most of my customers, and I had good relationships with everybody, I was able to pay, repay everybody and that type of thing. When I say everybody, there's only one person I didn't really repay at the end, but they actually should have paid me. I left them my equipment so it ended up being fine, and that was down in Mexico--maquiladora. And I wasn't too happy with them, but they actually ended up ahead in the deal because they never would have gotten the business that I gave them. And they were very late, and they actually caused me a lot of money, and frankly, they should have cut me better breaks, but they didn't. But I don't harbor any resentment, it's what it is, it's the way we had the business of doing it. So when I left I took a year off because I was really kind of stressed, to say the least. And I ended up paying the bank completely back with the credit lines which I had to sign for personally. In fact all the credit lines, I paid all my suppliers, I paid all of the contractors and everybody got paid. And I was almost surprised because I didn't think that was going to happen, but I was able to do it. And I liquidated out on that. I had a manager, I said I would help him if he wanted to stay as a contractor. I didn't want to be in the garment business anymore. I said, I've had enough and I really had so I lent him a little bit of money. He was the biggest disappointment because he was with me a long time and at the end he kind of just reneged on me because I lent him a fair amount of money. I mean not like the garment business, but I did lend money to get started in that. I guess it didn't work out. I knew it would be tough but it's not the money that bothered me, it's just how it ended. He didn't come to me and say, 'hey Seth,' you know, he kind of just walked out, and you know just kind of left it that way. So that kind of left me negative a little bit. But like everything else I've moved on, and I, you know, it's just, I took a year off to kind of relax, did some different things, went on some vacations, just did different things. Then I started to get really antsy and wanted to look for another ; I always intended to look for another business. But it wasn't going to be in the garment business, I was kind of done with that. So I started looking around after that. My brother was in Valpak since 1991. So this was 2000 at this point, and I was looking. I put out flyers for different businesses and was looking around. I didn't want to go, like I said, in the garment business, I probably could have gotten business as a consultant going overseas and stuff, but I didn't want to do that. I didn't really want to travel like that. So I started thinking about other businesses. My brother said, 'hey I need some help here, why don't you just, you know what you needed, I need a manager.' Well I looked at his business and said, his business is strictly marketing and sales. I said, I'm not really big on sales, it's not me. You know, it's more him. And I said, I'll look at your salespeople inside, you know, to see if you have the sales person. So I looked at the salespeople, and I said to him, you don't have any. You're lucky if they are salespeople, let alone, you could have them as a manager. Then I sort of said, I wasn't going to do that. I said I'd help him for a while, if he wanted me to. But then he made me a proposal, and I guess I was kind of antsy. too. I looked at his figures and said, now I guess we could make this work. But I said, I could really do that inside for you, because his wife was doing the inside at the time, and didn't want to do it. And I said, I can help in the sales, but I'm not really going to be a prime salesperson. I said I can help really do the inside for you and do all the financial stuff and help. I can do everything, but I said don't count on me as the prime salesperson. I'll do what I have to do for you, you know I'll help in the sales. So that's how that got started on doing that because what we decided to. We would split the business in the sense that I let him own that business. I did not want to own the business, I said we can work as partners. I'll treat you like I own the business, but I'm not going to own anything so that's how we got started. And frankly that's how it is today, basically I run the business for him on that. I do a lot of the sales, in fact I do more sales than I want. But I do the sales, I help out with the sales people, I do all the financials, I do all the inside, all the technical stuff I do on that type of thing. So that's really what's happened, he still likes marketing and the sales, so he still does that. My brother never pushed himself that hard on that business. He kind of goes along, you know, we do it on that type of thing and we're still doing it on that. GE: So a couple of last questions before Sue gets back to you. What do you think about the community here? How has the community been affected, in terms of when it was 1950, when you were very young, there were many families that were in this business. SK: You're right, the community has definitely changed a lot. When I was growing up as a kid there were a lot of small businesses. In fact when I went to the synagogue, even in the Jewish community there were a lot of small businesses. In fact that was the majority of people, you had doctors and lawyers but the majority of givers, the people involved in the community, were all small business people. On that, in fact a lot of the givers to the [Jewish] Federation were from the garment business. I used to know, my father used to take me down to his plant, show me things. You had, um, I'm trying to think, some of the others there, not Bernstein, it was belts, you know, Braunstein. Braunstein, I knew Nate, I was at his plant and so, they were all involved in the garment business, you know. And there were a lot of big givers, a lot of big plants actually. We were a small plant in comparison to what they were. That started to change, some people retired, some people had to retire. You know if you get out, some people sold, so the businesses did not stick around. So really say by the 90s there, you started to see the change. By 2000 there weren't too many people left over there. In fact, the Atlantic Apparel when you talk about it in sportswear, I think they had like 500, close to 500 plants in the Lehigh Valley and surrounding area. I don't know who was left, there were very few left on that type of thing, and even the garment in the dress apparel, we had like 200 and some. There was nobody left. In fact, I think I was the last one left, but I wasn't a part of, I made my own contracts at that point. I wasn't even a part of it anymore. I think I was the last one left on that type of thing. So there was nobody left on that type of thing, all those businesses shrank or disappeared over there. So what happened over time was you had professionals come into Allentown. There's still some small business people, but even the small business community started to have problems. By 2008 when you had the recession, it was a turning point, I think you lost businesses there. And being in Valpak, I see a lot of small businesses. People in the Jewish community, they had small businesses, but they're not too many of them, and that disappeared. Now you have a lot of professionals that have taken that place but it's really changed the character of the community. GE: How? GIve us an example? In what ways do you think? SK: Well it's a combination of businesses changing, but I also think it has socially changed. When I grew up, the synagogue was a social side of religious thing. Religion was always a secondary thing, I mean it was always secondary. It played a part in our community, but it was really secondary. The temples were social ; people went to the temple to meet people and to get their friends. And my mother and everyone, she had a clique. My mother really knew a lot of people because she was involved in not only the temple but also in the auxiliary of the Jewish Community Center. She was involved in all these things. But the women didn't work at that time so you had them involved in all these community type things--Jewish affairs, Hadassah-- you name it, my mother was part of it. She was involved in doing that, and I grew up with that, and my father tagged along cause you know he had to because of my mother and that was part of it. But that started to wane because women had to go to the workforce and became more involved, and not that they weren't involved in the community, but less so. It became less and less. And then also what happened is as the older generation died off and moved away, the younger generation, not as many stayed here, because the opportunities weren't here. They didn't go into the family business because there wasn't a family business to go into. Now some didn't want it, and did different things. It, you know, changed, and the dynamic people moved away, and people came here, but I don't think now as many people move here as they used to 10 or 15 years ago. GE: Okay, good. My last question before I turn it over to Sue is why do you think that the Jews were really overrepresented in the apparel industry? From what we've seen and from what we've read, it's very many Jews and Italians. But why do you think that the Jews were overrepresented in that industry? SK: I would say that there are a couple factors. One is discrimination factor that you couldn't have, you couldn't get into other businesses fields that easy or that readily, you weren't accepted, so they started in that. A lot of these Jewish merchants started as peddlers and they built up. Now, maybe some of the owners, their parents might have been peddlers to start out with, and they got started because you could start a garment business relatively inexpensively. Not that you didn't need money, you could start it up relatively easily, you could never do that today, could never do it. That's what's hard about small businesses, in general it's hard to start a small business. Any small business requires a fair amount of capital. But in those days you could go to a guy who'd lend you a machine, they would lend you, you could buy things on credit, and they would let you get started. And you could make a living and that's how they started a lot of them. That type of thing, I think that's what happened a lot. That doesn't happen today out there, and for a Jewish guy, like I said, it was an opportunity. There weren't a lot of opportunities, and you could make decent money if you were good. Now a lot of guys didn't make it obviously, but there were a number of guys who did make it and became good. Now, not all, some of the Jewish guys or Jewish merchants that were here in the Valley, their fathers had started a business. So that's how the guys who were bigger generally got bigger, their parents had started before them. Like Mr. Mort Levy, his father started the business and then he built it and obviously expanded it. His father started it before he started and he grew up in it. I got to mention Mr. Levy because Mr. Levy helped me. He mentored me a little bit when my father passed away when I was 36. I was really on my own pretty much, on the younger part of business. My father really had no connection at all with what I did on that, but I used to talk to Mr. Levy, and he would help me in a lot of cases. There were a lot of Jewish people that had these factories and that's how they built up. GE: Okay, great, thank you. Okay, I'm just going to push this. SC: Okay, so I really only have two more questions, so one is what has made you feel most creative in life? SK: What has made me most creative in life? SC: Given you a sense of satisfaction or creativity or whatever other word you want to add? SK: It's a mix, it's a mix of things for me because essentially I would say my family has been one of my key satisfactions in my life, no matter what because they have always been there, and I always have enjoyed them, proud of them. But one of the things, the garment business was a big change for me because I was a shy little guy. I'm still quiet, but it made me do things I would never do. And that's what I found interesting about it. After all the years, you know, it changed whether I went to med school. In retrospect, I could have been a doctor probably, probably wouldn't have been a problem for me. But the garment business just changed my life by doing it over there, so being creative is really up to you as a person. Brandeis changed my life in a certain way. It stopped me from being a doctor, believe it or not, because I learned about art, and I never knew I had an interest in art. What happened was that at Brandeis, I had taken all the science courses. I had taken organic chemistry, I was ready to go to med school and had taken this art course. I think during my sophomore year, and I said I liked it. And I was talking with the professor, and at Brandeis, you could speak to professors pretty easily, and I was doing this artwork and this guy says, 'you should really take more art courses.' He said, 'I think you have the ability.' And I started taking some more in my junior year, and I really enjoyed them, and I said, you know what, I don't really want to go to medical school. I stopped taking science courses. I was one course away from my science degree at Brandeis, but then I stopped, and I said that I'm just going to take art courses. And the rest of my courses were all art courses. They were all drawing, art history, to me they were so simple after science, it was like a breeze for me, and I enjoyed them so much. And I learned a lot of different things at Brandeis cause essentially I got to meet the professors, and the courses were really different. Actually, one of the professors there, I'm trying to think of his name, I don't know, he contributed to the art museum in Allentown over there, it was one of my professors over there, and he used to invite us out for wine. It was just a completely different environment from the sciences. But even the science professors that I got to talk to over there. So that's what changed my mind about expanding, looking at things differently over there and the garment industry. You had to be more creative, maybe that's why I stuck with it longer because I realized I could do things with it, I was willing to try different things over that thing. SC: So it changed the way you looked at things, and more artistically. SK: I used certain things artistically. I still do a little bit of drawing and painting. I said to Kathy that really to be an artist you have to do it full-time. It's hard to do it part-time. I still do crazy things but I always liked the abstract art and I would do different things, I would do canvases and different things. I said I can never make a living doing that. If I had my choice going back, I probably would have been an artist. But I don't think I could have made a living doing it although when I go to the museums and look at some of the stuff of some of the artists who "made it." I have to laugh because I was doing some of that stuff that they were doing, and I was looking at it. That's chance, really it is chance. SC: And what do you value most in life? SK: I still value my family the most in life and really you know people say that the money and different things. Your money is not just life because it's not all about money, it's, there's a balance that you strike between. Yeah it's good to have means. Then you could support yourself and your family and send the kids to college, and you know, help them when they need help. But it's really about relationships with your people, the community you live in that you feel comfortable with, friends that you have over time. Yeah, even friends as you get older, they move away too and you know it's good having them but it's, you still rely on your family to some degree-- my wife, my kids, your grandkids, and that becomes really one of the most important factors. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Seth Katzman, May 25, 2016
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Seth Katzman shares fond memories growing up in Allentown during the 1950s and 1960s. While attending Brandeis University Seth decided that rather than pursue his original plan to attend medical school, he would instead take over his father’s apparel contracting business. His father wanted to retire anyway. Seth’s older brother joined him initially in the business. Not many years later, the traditional sewing contracting business in Pennsylvania was diminishing and Seth had to adapt to the changing environment. Seth stayed in the apparel business until 1999, much later than many other contracting businesses in Pennsylvania.
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LVTNT-29
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2016-05-25
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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81fbd6d93df5edf86c1ba2f32717389f
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Title
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
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Ronnie Sheftel
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5.4 May 11, 2016 Ronnie Sheftel, May 11, 2016 LVTNT-33 38:12 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Ronnie Sheftel Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 SheftelRonnie_20160511.mp4 1.0:|21(9)|38(5)|57(14)|76(17)|93(11)|112(2)|133(4)|156(10)|181(8)|200(15)|221(3)|238(10)|261(2)|278(15)|293(13)|310(9)|331(14)|352(11)|379(7)|396(14)|415(3)|436(5)|455(5)|472(14)|493(9)|512(6)|531(4)|548(17)|569(15)|586(6)|607(8)|628(2)|645(2)|660(9)|679(9)|696(16)|715(8)|732(15)|737(4) 0 https://youtu.be/WF2LCKSnJ5o YouTube video 0 Introduction—Ronnie Sheftel SC: Today is-
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 ; RS: May 11th
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 ; SC: May 11th, thank you, Ronnie. May 11th, 2016, interview with Ronnie Sheftel. Could you state your full name one more time, and where you were born, and where you live right now?
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 ; RS: Ronnie Sheftel. It’s May 11th, 2016. I have lived in Allentown from 1950, and I came from Brooklyn, New York. I was born in- on November 12th, a long time ago. 0 44 Early Volunteer Work for Temple Beth El SC: And really the question today is, could you talk about your role as wife and mother and volunteer and any- any work that you did?
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 ; RS: It's a long time to go back. But when I first came to Allentown as a young bride, I was included in, I think, three or four boards, something I had never done before. And my first experience was being- to collect raffle- to sell raffle tickets to a dinner dance at Temple Beth El. And as time came closer, of course, I had to go away with my husband. When he said let's go, I went. And coming back, I had given it to a friend of mine to collect and I came back to find out how the dinner dance went and how we did with the collection. And I found out that half the people that were there had gotten ptomaine poisoning because whoever had cooked the dinner had left it out too long. And it was very sensitive and nobody was talking about the dinner, so I had never knew if the tickets were ever sold. That was my first experience with being on a board. 0 150 Ronnie's Husband & ; Children RS: I had three children, a boy, Bruce, and two girls, Hildy, and then six years later, Abby. And they are now far distant from here. Hildy lives in Seattle. Abbey lives in South Carolina and has for a long, long time. And I have no grandchildren, but Bruce lives here in Allentown, is taking care of my house. He normally lives in Blue Bell, Pennsylvania. And right now I have moved to Haverford, Pennsylvania. My husband, Milton, is in the dementia unit. He has dementia and he's fine. He smiles. He is happy and has had two girlfriends there, unlike me, although I do have two admirers. One is- will be one hundred in October- in August. Delightful old man, but very cute. The other one scares me. He's a friend of mine's husband. Never happened before, but it's fun. 0 235 Volunteering at the Jewish Day School RS: No. I then, when my children became school age, I was on board at the Jewish Day School and was the gift shop’s chairman for many, many years, and would- the kids would have dinner- have lunch and they would have gift shop on Thursday. So I was there and I learned how to say the prayers after lunch.
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 ; GE: Birkat Hamazon. 
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 ; RS: Birkat Hamazon. I learned it by hearing it, I didn't ever learn the words 0 278 Chairman for the Jewish Federation of the Lehigh Valley/President of Hadassah RS: As far as the big deals in my life, I was one year, I was chairman for the Federation — Jewish Federation of Allentown, of the Lehigh Valley. And we raised a lot of money for the Women's Division. It was a lot of money at that time. And then shortly after that, I became president, very proudly, of Hadassah, which at the time I became president in 1980, it was seven hundred members. And it was a wonderful organization, and at that time, I think we raised over fifty thousand dollars, which was enormous. And I sat down and realized I'm now the one head of a fifty thousand dollar business, which I guess in the 1980s was pretty good. And we did very well. And subsequently I was on the board of Jewish Federation and as I said- oh before, before Abby was born, I was a great lady at the Allentown Hospital, which was really very satisfying. 0 372 Milton Sheftel's Business & ; Volunteer Work RS: Milton was always busy. He was either head of the — what was it? B'nai B’rith boy?
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 ; GE: Yes, B'nai B’rith. 
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 ; RS: And that was before we were married. After we were married, he's the head of- he became the chairman of the- of his organization. It had many names at various times, but it was the textile and secondary material, the waste, because his business was collecting the cuttings of all the textile dealers in the Lehigh Valley, South and North. And the- it was a very good business at that time. Of course, it's not an existing, non-existent almost, in these days. Everything has gone overseas. And- but last night I heard on the radio they were talking- this morning, actually, that they were doing recycling and that recycling only collects 16 percent of what’s delivered... 0 513 Impact of Hadassah on Jewish Lives GE: So all those different, you know, organizations of a different leadership that you mentioned, which of those was the most that you felt that you were the most impactful? And if you want to just tell us a little bit about that.
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 ; RS: Hadassah I thought was. 
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 ; GE: So tell us what Hadassah was about then and what it meant to you to be a part of that? And…
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 ; RS: Hadassah is the largest women's Zionist organization. It was started in 1900-something, by Henrietta Szold, with two nurses that she sent to- was able to send to Israel, to Palestine at the time, and I was always very proud of it, being- it's an international organization. At the time that I was very active, they had three hundred thousand women all around the world. And it's, it’s still growing, but it's shifted. There's very little of it in the Lehigh Valley. It's still there. It never has gone away and hopefully never will. But in the Philadelphia area, it's quite active. And in Florida it's very active. But I get the bulletin with the- magazines every year, and boy, they are there all over the world. And it raises money and it has saved children from World War II. And it's- to me it was, you know, something really big. I had wanted to go on the regional board. 0 801 Ronnie's Daughters—Abby & ; Hildy Sheftel RS: And the three kids, I thought they grew up very nicely. And they went to- Abby and Bruce went to the Jewish Day School. And when Abby graduated in sixth grade, she went to what's- what's the school on Walnut Street? Raub — Raub Junior High. And it was very strange for a child her age to say to me, “Mom, I think I learned much more at the Day School.” ‘Cause they were a little bit ahead, considering that they had like twelve, ten kids in class. And when she went to Raub, she was dealing with a whole different group of people, but to her advantage, a whole group of Puerto Rican, Dominican, and Black people had taken a liking to her. And at one point she was thrown into the bramble bushes alongside Raub, and — it was a little anti-Semitic — and all her friends took over and they yeah, she really did, you know, she was really very good with that. I guess she was preparing herself for living in the South, which she did eventually when she was- when she was- graduated from Allen High, she actually moved to Atlanta and was selling apartments, you know, apartment residents. And then she moved to Greenville, South Carolina, where Milton had a- a plant. 0 1074 Diminishing Community Involvement in Hadassah SC: Yeah, I have a question about Hadassah.
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 ; RS: Sure.
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 ; SC: Do you think that Hadassah began to sort of…?
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 ; RS: Diminish?
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 ; RS: Diminish. Yeah, I- I- yeah, I was going to say “go downhill”, diminish is much better. And because the children have moved away and because many people have moved to Florida. So is it that-
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 ; GE: And also the women work.
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 ; SC: What?
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 ; GE: My generation, the women work.
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 ; SC: Yeah, the women work, that’s true. 
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 ; RS: Well actually in 1980, when I became president, I noticed that half of the women were going back to school, another half were starting to go to work, getting teach- people who had been teachers, and getting teachers certificates, were working as teachers. 0 1200 Attending a Berkshire Hathaway Stockholders' Meeting with Bruce Sheftel RS: Now can I talk about Omaha, Nebraska? 
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 ; SC: Sure.
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 ; RS: That was an experience. My son, Bruce has taken over my entertainment, I think, because he has introduced me to things I really had never done before. And he asked me- he's also taken over some of the money problems, and has been dealing in investments and he's doing beautifully. And he- his father never thought it was important, but he did go to a school at Harvard that was called “SOB: Sons of Bosses”. It was a program that they were- they, they're still running it. And they went three weeks from, I guess, 9:00 in the morning till 9:00 at night for three- but three weeks, they went for three years. And at the end of it, they actually got a Master's Degree, which was- they were told, he says to me that they were told that it's beyond a Masters, beyond an MBA, that the things that they were teaching them were way past that. So he’s took- put it to very good use at this point. And a few weeks ago, he said to me, would you like to go to Omaha? And I knew exactly what he was talking about. And we went to Omaha on a Friday afternoon and went to a Berkshire Hathaway stockholders meeting, because I found out we had stock, we are the stockholders, and it was an experience that forty four thousand others shared with me. 0 1739 Ronnie Sheftel's Values SC: What do you value most in life? 
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 ; RS: My kids. I think that was the best thing, and I have you know, it's fun learning to live with your adult children. Right now, my son is taking care of me and his father. And Milton was an interesting character to live with. And even today, he's- even though he's really not in great mental shape, he's the same Milton. Walks over to everybody, says — if it's a woman — “You are the prettiest woman in the room” ; and the men, “You're great.” And they love him, I mean, they think he's wonderful. 0 1832 Creativity—Ronnie Sheftel's Autobiographical Writing SC: So what made you feel the most creative? This is my last question, I promise. 
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 ; RS: Creative?
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 ; SC: Yes. 
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 ; RS: Well right now I'm writing stories for a writer’s group. Most of the people in the group, of course, are residents of the quadrangle. They are all, I mean I feel like I'm uneducated because I only have a B.A. Degree, but they have Master's and two or three PhDs, and they're writing their autobiographies. Just last year, unfortunately, he died shortly after he finished his second book on his life work. And he was 94. He was a psychiatrist. And I'm telling you it's wonderful because I'm thinking, I'm remembering every time somebody tells a story, it sparks something in your head, and you say, “Oh, I remember that!” That's fun. I really find it fun. Physically, I can't do that great because I'm very off-balance. But that I like, I enjoy that. 
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 ; GE: Tell us about the stories you’re writing. 0 MovingImage Ronnie Sheftel talks about how when she came from Brooklyn to Allentown as Milt Sheftel’s wife, she was quickly given opportunities to get involved in the small, tight-knit Jewish community. This was foreign to her life growing up in Brooklyn. Later Ronnie proudly describes her stint as president of the local Women’s Hadassah chapter, which was quite dominant at that time in the Lehigh Valley. Interview with Ronnie Sheftel, May 11th, 2016 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is- RONNIE SHEFTEL: May 11th SC: May 11th, thank you, Ronnie. May 11th, 2016, interview with Ronnie Sheftel. Could you state your full name one more time, and where you were born, and where you live right now? RS: Ronnie Sheftel. It's May 11th, 2016. I have lived in Allentown from 1950, and I came from Brooklyn, New York. I was born in- on November 12th, a long time ago. SC: Okay, thank you. And really the question today is, could you talk about your role as wife and mother and volunteer and any- any work that you did? RS: It's a long time to go back. But when I first came to Allentown as a young bride, I was included in, I think, three or four boards, something I had never done before. And my first experience was being- to collect raffle- to sell raffle tickets to a dinner dance at Temple Beth El. And as time came closer, of course, I had to go away with my husband. When he said let's go, I went. And coming back, I had given it to a friend of mine to collect and I came back to find out how the dinner dance went and how we did with the collection. And I found out that half the people that were there had gotten ptomaine poisoning because whoever had cooked the dinner had left it out too long. And it was very sensitive and nobody was talking about the dinner, so I had never knew if the tickets were ever sold. That was my first experience with being on a board. The rest of them... SC: So if you would talk a little bit more about after that, after you were at that first board meeting. RS: No, things got much better. I had three children, a boy, Bruce, and two girls, Hildy, and then six years later, Abby. And they are now far distant from here. Hildy lives in Seattle. Abbey lives in South Carolina and has for a long, long time. And I have no grandchildren, but Bruce lives here in Allentown, is taking care of my house. He normally lives in Blue Bell, Pennsylvania. And right now I have moved to Haverford, Pennsylvania. My husband, Milton, is in the dementia unit. He has dementia and he's fine. He smiles. He is happy and has had two girlfriends there, unlike me, although I do have two admirers. One is- will be one hundred in October- in August. Delightful old man, but very cute. The other one scares me. He's a friend of mine's husband. Never happened before, but it's fun. SC: So could you talk about- Oh, go ahead. RS: No. I then, when my children became school age, I was on board at the Jewish Day School and was the gift shop's chairman for many, many years, and would- the kids would have dinner- have lunch and they would have gift shop on Thursday. So I was there and I learned how to say the prayers after lunch. GAIL EISENBERG: Birkat Hamazon. RS: Birkat Hamazon. I learned it by hearing it, I didn't ever learn the words. But that's okay. As far as the big deals in my life, I was one year, I was chairman for the Federation -- Jewish Federation of Allentown, of the Lehigh Valley. And we raised a lot of money for the Women's Division. It was a lot of money at that time. And then shortly after that, I became president, very proudly, of Hadassah, which at the time I became president in 1980, it was seven hundred members. And it was a wonderful organization, and at that time, I think we raised over fifty thousand dollars, which was enormous. And I sat down and realized I'm now the one head of a fifty thousand dollar business, which I guess in the 1980s was pretty good. And we did very well. And subsequently I was on the board of Jewish Federation and as I said- oh before, before Abby was born, I was a great lady at the Allentown Hospital, which was really very satisfying. But when I became pregnant with her, I decided it's not a good time to be in a hospital. So those are really the main things that I did. Milton was always busy. He was either head of the -- what was it? B'nai B'rith boy? GE: Yes, B'nai B'rith. RS: And that was before we were married. After we were married, he's the head of- he became the chairman of the- of his organization. It had many names at various times, but it was the textile and secondary material, the waste, because his business was collecting the cuttings of all the textile dealers in the Lehigh Valley, South and North. And the- it was a very good business at that time. Of course, it's not an existing, non-existent almost, in these days. Everything has gone overseas. And- but last night I heard on the radio they were talking- this morning, actually, that they were doing recycling and that recycling only collects 16 percent of what's delivered and things that you give to various charities rarely get on, you know, to the- the floors when you give it to the -- what do you call them? Can you cut this out? GE: Yes. RS: Is this- The consignment stores and the various charities that, you know, drop in the box. SB: The Salvation Army. RS: The Salvation Army, the whatever, you know, those barrels. And Milton always used to say that he never recycled anything. And I kept saying you're in the recycling business. How come you don't recycle? We have two bins right in our kitchen, you know, garbage and recycling. And he says it's crazy, don't do it. But I do it. GE: But the interesting part is, in a sense he was the recycler. A reuser. RS: I said that you are a recycler. Absolutely! Yes, he really was. And he never recycled anything but- I think it's becoming, they're becoming aware that it is important. GE: So all those different, you know, organizations of a different leadership that you mentioned, which of those was the most that you felt that you were the most impactful? And if you want to just tell us a little bit about that. RS: Hadassah I thought was. GE: So tell us what Hadassah was about then and what it meant to you to be a part of that? And-- RS: Hadassah is the largest women's Zionist organization. It was started in 1900-something, by Henrietta Szold, with two nurses that she sent to- was able to send to Israel, to Palestine at the time, and I was always very proud of it, being- it's an international organization. At the time that I was very active, they had three hundred thousand women all around the world. And it's, it's still growing, but it's shifted. There's very little of it in the Lehigh Valley. It's still there. It never has gone away and hopefully never will. But in the Philadelphia area, it's quite active. And in Florida it's very active. But I get the bulletin with the- magazines every year, and boy, they are there all over the world. And it raises money and it has saved children from World War II. And it's- to me it was, you know, something really big. I had wanted to go on the regional board. I had many friends on the national board. And as I see their names, it's- I'm very proud of it. But- GE: What were some of the programs that you were, some of the programs that you were involved with here, that you brought here, that you were- RS: Oh what started it was the- we had study groups, and the study groups were wonderful because it taught you a lot about things, like one of the things that I -- I think I was vice-president at the time, but I made a-What happened was you're given a topic and one person will be the leader of it. Once I had I think it was mothers and sons, or why, you know, eating was very important. And I found out a little clue: Eating was very important to the immigrants in the- in the United States in the early years of the 19th, 20th century, because when you got very thin, they thought you had tuberculosis. So people would say, "Eat!" It wasn't the Jewish mother's attitude. It was a necessary thing because tuberculosis was very prevalent in those days and living conditions were quite horrible. But it's- it was really- I was very busy. I was also on the board of the Day School, as I said, and I'm trying to think of what else. God, I was always busy, till I picked up tennis and then I played tennis three times a week until I was past eighty. GE: Wonderful. Well what did, what did these things mean to you? How did you feel in terms of both what you were able to contribute or how they helped you as a person, as-? RS: They did help me very much. I mean, when I started making speeches, I would shake -- and then I realized, you know what? These are my friends. They don't want me to fail. And I hoped I didn't. And it was very important, and as I said, when Milton became very active in his industry organization, I was there, and we would have things to do. You know, they have- which, whatever city we had the convention. And usually there was a guest, not a guest, but a resident host and hostess. And they would set up programs for the ladies because most of the men- there were very few women in the textile waste. There were a few, but very few. I don't know what it would be like now, but, but it's been a long time. But it was- it was an active life. And the three kids, I thought they grew up very nicely. And they went to- Abby and Bruce went to the Jewish Day School. And when Abby graduated in sixth grade, she went to what's- what's the school on Walnut Street? Raub -- Raub Junior High. And it was very strange for a child her age to say to me, "Mom, I think I learned much more at the Day School." 'Cause they were a little bit ahead, considering that they had like twelve, ten kids in class. And when she went to Raub, she was dealing with a whole different group of people, but to her advantage, a whole group of Puerto Rican, Dominican, and Black people had taken a liking to her. And at one point she was thrown into the bramble bushes alongside Raub, and -- it was a little anti-Semitic -- and all her friends took over and they yeah, she really did, you know, she was really very good with that. I guess she was preparing herself for living in the South, which she did eventually when she was- when she was- graduated from Allen High, she actually moved to Atlanta and was selling apartments, you know, apartment residents. And then she moved to Greenville, South Carolina, where Milton had a- a plant. And she had set up- they set up for her a linen, you know, bedding plant- store. She had at one time, she had three stores, and she was doing very nicely until the companies themselves, she would get, you know, seconds and handouts. And when we first moved, when she first moved into the business, the former owner had big baskets and the sheets, you know, were all mixed up together. They came from all the plants, Laura Ashley, Ralph Lauren, and she managed to rearrange it where she got the print, the twins together, and the kings and the queens, and then the- she would package them together. And she did a good job until, as I said, the industry- the manufacturers themselves realized that they were, you know, getting rid of things by the pound when they could get they could get rid- they could make a good profit on selling them in seconds if they just packaged them. So that business went away, too. So she then decided to go into real estate and she's been there for- God, almost 20 years. SC: In Atlanta? RS: No, she's in Greenville. Yeah. She, well she got married and she- six months after she got married, she lost a leg in a motorcycle accident. But in this day and day, I want to tell you that she is number one in the paint horse show ring. So, with a one leg, she has done very well. And my other daughter is in Seattle. She works in a vegan restaurant. My two daughters are vegan, gluten-free vegans, and it's very difficult to listen to them because all they talk about is food. I think it's a loss on their part because I still eat meat and all the bad things that they say I shouldn't eat. And I survived, believe me better than some of the people at the quadrangle because every night they have ice cream. SC: Yeah, I have a question about Hadassah. RS: Sure. SC: Do you think that Hadassah began to sort of--? RS: Diminish? RS: Diminish. Yeah, I- I- yeah, I was going to say "go downhill", diminish is much better. And because the children have moved away and because many people have moved to Florida. So is it that- GE: And also the women work. SC: What? GE: My generation, the women work. SC: Yeah, the women work, that's true. RS: Well actually in 1980, when I became president, I noticed that half of the women were going back to school, another half were starting to go to work, getting teach- people who had been teachers, and getting teachers certificates, were working as teachers. And yes, I had a lot of trouble -- as a matter of fact, my board, which was I think forty strong, had its three top off positions I couldn't even get anybody to do. I finally asked the executive board to help me, and we managed to get everything done pretty well. But, yes, of course, I think all women's organizations are, you know, much less -- I mean, everybody calls it your grandma's business, so we're now into the great-grandmas and past. But listen, I have great, great nieces, I have two great, great nieces, but even the great-nieces and nephews are old! SC: But you don't look it, so it's fine. RS: Thank you. But other than that, no, it was fun. It really was. But it's a different life now. I'm pretty much on my own. Now can I talk about Omaha, Nebraska? SC: Sure. RS: That was an experience. My son, Bruce has taken over my entertainment, I think, because he has introduced me to things I really had never done before. And he asked me- he's also taken over some of the money problems, and has been dealing in investments and he's doing beautifully. And he- his father never thought it was important, but he did go to a school at Harvard that was called "SOB: Sons of Bosses". It was a program that they were- they, they're still running it. And they went three weeks from, I guess, 9:00 in the morning till 9:00 at night for three- but three weeks, they went for three years. And at the end of it, they actually got a Master's Degree, which was- they were told, he says to me that they were told that it's beyond a Masters, beyond an MBA, that the things that they were teaching them were way past that. So he's took- put it to very good use at this point. And a few weeks ago, he said to me, would you like to go to Omaha? And I knew exactly what he was talking about. And we went to Omaha on a Friday afternoon and went to a Berkshire Hathaway stockholders meeting, because I found out we had stock, we are the stockholders, and it was an experience that forty four thousand others shared with me. GE: That's how many people were there? RS: Yes, we don't know exactly, but they- they said that forty four thousand were registered to go, and Bruce said he had dealings with them. He wanted to take his camera and get, you know, a slip for press. And he said they called him, and he said if you- anything he wanted, if you called them, they called you back. And it's like Warren Buffett himself. We got up at five o'clock in the morning to get into the auditorium by 7:00 a.m. Because it was raining, they opened up the auditorium before 7:00 a.m. So there were lines everywhere, but Bruce got us a seat and he was taking pictures of Warren Buffett from 8:30 in the morning until 4 o'clock that afternoon. Warren Buffett is eighty-five years old. He talked and answered questions from- there were six people asking questions, one of which was Andrew Sorkin from The Times. He was there, among others. And there were- oh, Bill Gates was also there with his wife. We have big pictures of him and of Warren Buffett and his- his- I don't know if Charlie Munger is his partner or what, but they were sitting at the table together, munching on their See's Candy, peanut brittle, which is very good. He was talking about he- he was questioned, and then he would answer, and then he would talk a little bit more, and then in the afternoon, there was a break at noon and he came back, we came back at 1 o'clock and there were questions that the audience had submitted, and he would answer, he'd say, "Platform four," and a spotlight would go on and someone would be standing in the spotlight and asking a question, and he would answer the question. I mean, he never- never fumbled, never did anything that was- he just calmly answered every single question. I mean, he was amazing. It really was amazing. And he'd always say, after he spoke for a while, very nicely, he would say, "And Charlie, what do you think about that?" Charlie would say four words. He's 92, but very sharp. I mean, he- some of the answers he gave were very sharp. And it was really a delightful show. It- amazing. He was down on, after the- they had an hour, I think, over half an hour to buy the goods. Friday, I understand, was all buying. You didn't have any meetings or anything, but they did have a dinner and a brunch, and- but they were- he was down, not on the arena floor, but on the selling floor. And I see this big crowd and I saw a guy six foot four or so and I said, "You're tall enough. Who is there? Is it Warren?" And he looks and he says, "Yeah, it's him." And he's surrounded by people who- very, very nice man. And then we had an Uber driver take us around on Sunday. Oh Sunday morning was a brunch at a jewelry store that is the largest in the United States. And I don't think anybody has ever heard the name. It's Borsheims. Gorgeous, sixty-five thousand square foot jewelry store, beautiful and gorgeous stuff. I mean not only jewelry, but dishes and flatware and a Swarovski -- I mean, you name it, it was there. Paintings and tiles, beautiful things, really. Actually, I sent my great nieces, my great, greats, little dishes of you know, like from three to five, nine years old dish sets, cup, plates, fork, and spoon. And on my cell phone, I have one of them saying thank you in taking it apart, and saying, "Oh, a cup for drinking!" And they said it was perfect because she was growing out of her little infant bowls. And she's adorable anyway. But it was, it was really quite an experience. And I said we got an Uber driver to take us around and she took us all around and she says, "Oh, you have to see Warren's house, don't you?" So we said, okay, you want to take us? "Oh," she says, "Everybody goes there!" And if you didn't see the yellow cord around the house because people didn't want them to come in, it's a very nice house in a very wonderful neighborhood. Nothing extravagant. I live on Main Street in Allentown, and I lived, and the houses are very similar and nothing extravagant or elaborate. He is a very simple man, and Bruce was able to take a picture of him getting into his car, going to dinner with the stockholders, and a very simple place, an old fashioned steak house in Omaha. And that was- And then the next day we went to Lauritzen Gardens, I think it was called, the most gorgeous greenhouses you ever want to see, almost bigger than the New York's Botanical Gardens. It was- it was really an eye opener to see this. It was really nice. We missed the tornadoes. There was one last night and one just before we got there. So that's a minus, but we weren't there for. But it was an experience that really- And then we stopped, that week ended by seeing John Williams conduct the Philadelphia Orchestra at the Kimmel Center with Star Wars music. It was an amazing week. Weekend, really. So, and that's my life now. SC: Yes. May I ask a question? RS: But it was very interesting. Go ahead. SC: What do you- I have two more questions. What do you value most in life? RS: My kids. I think that was the best thing, and I have you know, it's fun learning to live with your adult children. Right now, my son is taking care of me and his father. And Milton was an interesting character to live with. And even today, he's- even though he's really not in great mental shape, he's the same Milton. Walks over to everybody, says -- if it's a woman -- "You are the prettiest woman in the room" ; and the men, "You're great." And they love him, I mean, they think he's wonderful. And it was funny, I went to a Cinco de Mayo festival that they had in this unit, and the director of it is about twenty-four years old, very beautiful, and was wearing a very short skirt, and she was dancing around, and every time she would come by us, we were sitting there, he would say, "She's a very pretty lady." But that was fun, it was. Everybody was dancing and laughing and singing. And it was, it was cute. Very good. SC: So what made you feel the most creative? This is my last question, I promise. RS: Creative? SC: Yes. RS: Well right now I'm writing stories for a writer's group. Most of the people in the group, of course, are residents of the quadrangle. They are all, I mean I feel like I'm uneducated because I only have a B.A. Degree, but they have Master's and two or three PhDs, and they're writing their autobiographies. Just last year, unfortunately, he died shortly after he finished his second book on his life work. And he was 94. He was a psychiatrist. And I'm telling you it's wonderful because I'm thinking, I'm remembering every time somebody tells a story, it sparks something in your head, and you say, "Oh, I remember that!" That's fun. I really find it fun. Physically, I can't do that great because I'm very off-balance. But that I like, I enjoy that. GE: Tell us about the stories you're writing. RS: Well, I've written a story about when my father and mother and sister went down to- up- we were going to a convention in my father's- my father's convention in Atlanta. In 1945? No, it couldn't have been, it was '48. My mother was still alive. And we went- we drove down to the- down south and we were meeting a couple who were leaving Greenville, who- he had- he was a shirt manufacturer in Greenville and was moving to Manhattan. And we were going to meet his family, and we went to a place called Tybee Beach in South Carolina. And nobody I know has ever heard of it except my daughter, when I- who lives in South Carolina said, "Oh yeah, it's a nice beach." So we went there and Eugene Talmadge was at the hotel. He was just leaving the hotel. And at that time, he was a famous or infamous politician in South Carolina. And my- How old was I? I don't remember. Maybe 12, 11? Eleven, I guess. It was, I said, "He looked like just a little corn pone." There was nothing very important about him, he didn't look like a hayseed -- that's the word. And I was not impressed, but I was impressed with the going down and seeing the chain gangs on the road. That was impressive- not impressive, but scary. And how we- when we left, when we actually left the hotel to go to Atlanta, we got into an accident and our car was smashed, so we had to take a bus to Atlanta and left the car there to be repaired. And the children- my mother got hysterical because she was wearing pants. It was a beautiful pair of the patio pants, but in 1948 you did not drive a- in a- you know, you didn't get on a bus with a pair of slacks, more or less. And I said today we would think it's formalwear. And then the night drive through rural South Carolina was something because in the middle of nowhere with no lights, no nothing, they would stop and somebody would get off. So it was quite, that was an adventure. And then the next one was when? In 1954 or '52, something like that. We were in a blizzard and we had gone out to dinner at the Gourmet Inn, and we had some visitors from Italy in. And when it was snowing, I kept saying, I'll take a brisket out and I'll put- and have dinner here. We had invited two more couples for dinner and Milton said, "No, we'll go out to the Gourmet Inn." I said, "Can't we stay in town?" "Nah!" And this Italian is saying, "This is no snow!" He comes from the Alps. They had six feet the week before. And we went there on Saturday night. And we left the- at about 10:00 that night, we left the Gourmet Inn and got about half a mile down the road when we had to stop because the car wouldn't move. The wind was blowing and the snow was blowing and it was five degrees, and we stayed four days. We were very lucky when we saw light out in a bleak, dark night. And Milt and his brother got out of the car and the snow was up to their waist, and they opened the hood and snow was packed all the way into the- to the engine. So we had Vera Shiff with us, too. And Morty was in Cincinnati and he kept saying, "What do you mean you're stuck near the Gourmet Inn? Can't you go home? Kids are home," and everybody's kids were home with the babysitters. And we stayed there because we couldn't get out. And we realized Amelio Falco, who is this outside- The Italian kept saying, "We had six feet of snow!" And after I wrote the story, I looked up in the- on the dates at how much snow we had -- we had 15.4 inches. And last winter, we had- you had 32 inches here in Allentown. So I apologize for saying it was a blizzard, but that was- it was an amazing- Listen, we got through that. But I have another one. We were caught in- We went to Acapulco, and we went out fishing and the boat burned underneath us. So that's another one I'm writing but I don't want them to know that I was in catastrophic situations all my life. I had some very happy, calm ones. So that's an interesting- that's what I'm doing now. And meeting a hundred new people. And getting along very nicely. SC: Thank you so much. RS: My pleasure. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Ronnie Sheftel, May 11, 2016
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Ronnie Sheftel talks about how when she came from Brooklyn to Allentown as Milt Sheftel’s wife, she was quickly given opportunities to get involved in the small, tight-knit Jewish community. This was foreign to her life growing up in Brooklyn. Later Ronnie proudly describes her stint as president of the local Women’s Hadassah chapter, which was quite dominant at that time in the Lehigh Valley.
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LVTNT-33
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2016-05-11
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
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Robert Levine
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5.4 June 1, 2017 Robert Levine, June 1, 2017 LVTNT-28 52:00 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Robert Levine Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 LevineRobert_20170601 1.0:|23(4)|42(14)|67(7)|86(9)|109(11)|136(8)|161(13)|192(2)|219(6)|238(15)|263(4)|286(15)|313(11)|340(4)|365(8)|390(5)|409(4)|436(3)|455(15)|474(16)|495(16)|516(2)|539(9)|560(10)|587(7)|616(11)|643(5)|662(5)|679(12)|700(16)|725(15)|750(12)|771(11)|796(9)|821(6)|846(12)|873(12)|898(13)|929(14)|958(7)|991(13)|1020(7)|1043(14)|1068(12)|1087(13)|1112(10)|1137(2)|1158(8)|1185(9)|1220(9)|1241(13)|1270(6) 0 https://youtu.be/H-BXrwfr-xg YouTube video 0 Introduction—Robert Levine's Education SC: Today is June 1, 2017, interview with Robert Levine, and am I pronouncing that correctly? So I'd like to go first to have you put yourself into place, and say your full name, where you were born, when you were born, and also some things about where you’ve lived in your life, you know, if you’ve lived at different places.
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 ; RL: Full name is Robert Kerry Levine. Born and raised in Allentown. Attended the Jewish day school in Allentown. I believe one of the first graduating classes from there. From there, I guess I went to Raub Junior High School, went to Allen High School for a year. Then my parents sent me off to Perkiomen Prep which I did three years there. And then down to Clemson University in Clemson, South Carolina, to get my degree-- four year degree. 0 69 Levine's Father & ; the Textile Waste Business SC: And also, can you talk a little bit more about any memories you have as a child growing up and what got you into the business? 
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 ; RL: Memories were that my father always worked, and I think from the time I could walk, I probably went to the - as we called it the shop or the warehouse - to help, to get in somebody's way when we were younger. And eventually, every summer, every vacation I did work for my father.
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 ; SC: And was he in exactly the same businesses as what you then were in?
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 ; RL: Well, they actually had an unusual business, or unique business, that their father who was born in and married in Russia came over here and had six children. The oldest being Verna, then four brothers, and then the youngest being Rose, who was actually still alive today ; she's 97. Their father went around town with a cart - I guess in that time that’s what they had - to collect used metal. 0 389 Family History SC: [C]an you talk a little bit more about your parents’ background, a little bit more context of your mother's family and father’s family.
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 ; RL: And I think a unique part about my father’s and mother's family is my father, like I said, had three other sibling boys who were all in the business. Each one of them had a different part of the business: one was in the office, two were in the textile waste, one was in the fabric part of it. Two of the brothers, the oldest two married a set of sisters. My father and his brother, who was just as old, a little older than him, married a different set of sisters. So again, it’s sort of unique that growing up we were very very close. My father's background, and I think the brother’s background, they just worked hard and learned from doing whatever they did because they had no college education. High school education was the most they had.
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 ; SC: That was good though.
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 ; RL: I think that you know from work, hard work, working hard. Just being there and doing it. 0 755 Schmattas—Yiddish for "Rag Business" SC: And it’s interesting that your family went from metal, metal scraps to fabric scraps. Would that all be considered schmatta?
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 ; RL: Schmattas? 
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 ; SC: Yeah. I have a terrible Trenton accent, I’m sorry.
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 ; RL: I don’t know if the metals would be called schmattas, but the rags are schmattas.
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 ; SC: Yes, okay, I didn’t know. So it would've been scraps but it's still some of the same skills, maybe? Or…
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 ; RL: It’s picking up stuff that nobody can use or wants.
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 ; SC: You can see value. 0 800 Competition Within the Textile Waste Businesses SC: So do you, do you think that the Jewish community was cohesive when you were young and when your parents were young?
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 ; RL: I think they were, yes. I mean in the textile waste part there were three families involved in the business. Each one of them worked very hard to get their accounts, and it was almost like cut-throat. That if one would pay a nickel a pound, the other one would come in and say seven cents a pound. And really the only one that was benefiting from it was the customer that they were buying it from. And that really went on for as long as I can remember. Once the children got involved, my generation, I know of a family is probably little younger than I am, he would call me and say ‘listen why don’t one week you guys pick the scrap up, the next week we pick the scraps, and let’s buy it cheap.’ Our fathers didn’t, both sides of the fathers didn’t want to have anything to do with it. 0 883 Relationship to Non-Jewish Communities SC: And how about the relationship between the Jewish community and the non-Jewish community. A lot of people we actually interviewed a couple generations, and you would hear, you’re young and…
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 ; RL: It doesn't matter who you are, or what you believe in. I wouldn’t say that about my father or my father-in-law, you know, that’s something different. I think my father-in-law has changed, that he realizes that this is what it is. 0 931 Personal Connections to the Jewish Community GE: [D]o you want to share with us any memories you have of the local Jewish community growing up? Or, what were the prominent institutions? Was your family active in any thing?
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 ; RL: Well, like I said, I went to a Jewish Day School, and I was in one of the first graduating classes. My parents belonged to Congregation Sons of Israel which is the Orthodox synagogue in the town. I was bar mitzvahed at 6th Street which was the old Congregation Sons of Israel. By the time I got married we still belonged to Congregation Sons of Israel. The sad part is they told me my dues were based on who my father was. I said ‘my father doesn't pay my dues.’ And, again, I don’t know if this should be talked about, but. And I said ‘no, I pay my own dues. It's my value.’ And growing up with, and then having some young kids, we weren't sending them to a Jewish day school. So we needed somewhere for them to go to Hebrew school. And at that point, we joined Temple Beth El. 0 1041 History of the Family Businesses GE: [T]ell us a little bit about the businesses. How your . . . .sounds like your grandfather, but especially your father and his brothers really, what was, how did it start? How did it grow? It sounds like it eventually became these four businesses they operated. Which parts of the business, what happened for the next generation?
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 ; RL: My grandfather had the pushcart and for some reason, he got some fabrics. And at that point, I don't know how much fabric it was but I guess my father and his brothers thought that this would be a good thing, rather than the fruit stand and the fresh fish. So they all worked together on Second Street. Mostly with the textile waste part, and then they grew into full rolls of fabric. Either they were extra from the manufacturers that they weren’t using to make their garments, or from the contractors there was often extra. I think at one point, the manufacturers who had contractors making their fabric would send in thousands of yards, maybe they only needed 500 yards. And it would get lost in the shuffle. And at that point, my father’s business, they bought the fabric. So they started with the textile waste part and the full rolls of fabric, excess fabric, over cuts, or whatever you want to call it. 0 1253 1986: Consolidating the Businesses RL: And then at one point, and it may have been 1986, we put all the businesses in one building. My father and his brother Ben ran the textile waste part of it. His brother Irving ran the fabric part of it. All the fabric whether it was for the retail stores or for the manufacturers. And his oldest brother, Morris, was more the financial guy, but also in the ‘craft and notions’ part of the business. Each one of the brothers had one son. Morris’ son, who was an excellent carpenter, came into the business, and none of us worked under our fathers. We all worked under uncles. That’s what, that’s what they wanted.
 ; 
 ; Arthur was involved in the wiper part of the business in the textile waste part. My cousin Jeffrey, who was Irving’s son, I have to rephrase, he was the only one who worked under his father. He didn't really want to work, he didn’t really like the work. He did not last long. He moved out to California or Arizona somewhere. Ira worked under Irving, which is the second oldest brother in the textile part of it, and I worked under Morris, who was in the financial part and the ‘crafts and notions’ part. And everything was great, and then you bring everybody... and everybody did their own little thing. 0 1452 1996: Closing the Family Business GE: [H]ow were the four businesses doing? Were they all still…
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 ; RL: Successful.
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 ; GE: Okay.
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 ; RL: And then we also had all of the retail stores, which my mother's brother ran all the retail stores. At one point his office was in one store, and then he moved into the warehouse with us. So that's how the business was running. And then at one point, we decided that we didn’t want it, it wasn’t right for us, the times weren’t right, and we literally closed everything down. We sold out of the retail stores, and just closed them. And we closed the wholesale operation. 
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 ; GE: And that was about when?
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 ; RL: I want to say 1996.
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 ; GE: Oh, so by 1996, the retail was closed and the wholesale was closed?
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 ; RL: Everything was closed. 0 1631 Life After the Business—Husband & ; Wife Businesses GE: [W]ant to share with us a little bit what you have done since?
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 ; RL: Since then, we have the building, which we rent out. It’s about a 130,000 square-foot warehouse. I happen to own 60% of it because I had 20%, I got my father's 20%, and I got my one cousin’s, who lives in Florida.I bought his 20%. Ira in a sense had 20%, and his parents may have still been living, they had 20%. They both passed. They gave 10% of their share to their daughter, who had passed to her kids, and they gave 10% to Ira. So in a sense, Ira’s sister’s children, the three of them own 10%, Ira owns 30% of the building, and I own 60%.
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 ; And, I guess I got married in ‘75, so we started making clothing, my wife and I. We had our own contracting facility that we actually made our own. First we had other people making it, then we started making it ourselves, and then we made garments for other people. Most of it was garment dyed. We had someone making sweaters for us, and everything would get dyed together. And we were selling to J Jill, Black-and-White, and a lot of boutique-type stores. 0 2016 Memories of the Business GE: Do you have any fond memories about the business that you want to share with us, any kind of anecdotes working, either working with your dad and uncles, or the time it was the cousins. Any particular stories that you want to share?
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 ; RL: Well, it was unique that my father and his brothers could scream . . . if they had a huge argument, two seconds later, it was forgotten. When you get cousins involved and uncles involved, it doesn't happen like that. So I think that was, you know, you sort of get used to that. Memories I had was that every time I had a vacation, if it was from high school, if it was from college, I’d come and work in the business. And I tried to learn every part of the business, and I expected if I wanted, I would sweep floors. If I wanted my employees to sweep floors, they can’t say well you never did it. 0 2110 Profits and Products GE: [I]t may be interesting to hear of total sales and perhaps separately total profits. What percent was the retail, was the waste, was the fabric? Any, any…
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 ; RL: That’s a business question, I could tell.
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 ; GE: Yeah, but any feel for that? Which one was particularly small, large? In terms of sales and in terms of profits.
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 ; RL: I don’t know what percentages, but I would think the fabric to the manufacturers was probably the largest percentage. Under that was the sales to retail stores, and then our stores, our retail stores, and the textile waste. And probably the reason for that is because when you're selling a tractor trailer load of fabric, the dollar amount was a lot more than when we are selling a tractor trailer load of scrap. 0 2309 Impact of the Textile and Needle-Trade Industries on the Lehigh Valley GE: Right, what impact do you think it's had on the Lehigh Valley on the general community and what impact do you think it had on the Jewish community? If anything.
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 ; RL: I don’t know, well I think...I don’t know if it’s really had an impact except maybe for prosperity or you know that's what I was doing. Now even when we closed our business, I was devastated so what am I going to give my kids, I have nothing to give my kids. And again that’s probably a Jewish thing. Maybe not, but what do I give my kids, I have nothing to give them. So I was very upset about that part. And I remember talking to the cantor and he said, no-- it was actually the rabbi, and he said, ‘don’t worry about it ; they’ll find their own.’ 0 2359 Rosey's Creations RL: I was a contractor making flags also for a company that now had moved to Florida, excuse me to South Carolina. And they would give me the rolls of fabric, which were flags, I would take them to a contractor, and they would cut the flag out and sew it. We also did tablecloths for department stores if it was for a certain cosmetic company. We did NASCAR flags, we did the US flag, all kinds of different things. 
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 ; GE: At that point was that part of the Levine business or was that was part of yours and your wife’s..
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 ; RL: No, that was a part of my own.
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 ; GE: Right, okay, your own business. What was that business called? 
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 ; RL: Well I kept it under Rosey’s Creations, which was my, our fabric part of the business. 0 2410 My Boy's Baking RL: Just, you didn’t ask about My Boy’s Baking. My wife and I have three children, grown, and actually three grandchildren, which is better than having the children, but don’t record that. Your thoughts also?
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 ; GE: No, I don’t have them yet.
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 ; RL: Oh, it’s the best,
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 ; GE: I look forward to it.
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 ; RL: But, when my daughter was young, she used to say, ‘where are my boys?’ So we really didn’t want to call it biscotti, we didn’t want to give it . . . because what do we do if we start making cookies? So that's how we got the name My Boy’s Baking from. Actually, my daughter . . . because people would go to her and say aren’t you upset that it’s called “My Boy’s..” and she would say no because that’s what I called them. 0 2464 Reflecting on Jewish and Italian Involvement in the Textile and Needle-Trade Industries GE: Why do you think the Jewish community was dominant in that industry?
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 ; RL: Probably because once someone was doing it and another Jewish person said, ‘oh, maybe I should do it.’ No, I really don’t know because there are a lot of Italians in it too. 
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 ; GE: Right.
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 ; RL: But Italians and the Jewish people are sort of similar.
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 ; GE: Right, right.
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 ; RL: And they all got, we all got along.
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 ; GE: Right, right, any thoughts as to why those two groups?
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 ; RL: Get along?
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 ; GE: Or were in that industry? What about that industry made it attractive?
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 ; RL: I really don’t know. I mean just maybe for the enjoyment of it. It could be enjoyment. 0 2588 Levine's Children and Grandchildren RL: My oldest son, Joshua, is married and has two sons. He works for Stephen Starr Restaurants. They have about 47 restaurants, each one of them . . . mainly out of Philadelphia. Each one pretty much has a different theme. They've opened in Florida, they’ve opened in Washington DC, and they’ve opened in New York. Actually Stephen Starr just won the James Beard Award, which is like a nationwide or worldwide top honor. One of his restaurants in New York, Le Coucou, a French restaurant, just also won the James Beard for the best restaurant. Le Coucou was voted the best restaurant in New York. My son Joshua runs all forty-seven restaurants ; from opening them, helping to open, to buying the supplies for the restaurants. And actually he started out, our family was very ice hockey oriented, so he went to school in Colorado, University of Colorado, and he was a ref for the semi-pros out on the West Coast. 0 2884 South Clemson Versus Philadelphia Textile SC: Is there a reason why you went down South to Clemson, only because there were…
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 ; RL: Philadelphia Textile was the number one school. I did not get in on my own. I was probably not a very good student, and my father said, ‘we must know somebody.’ And I said, ‘Dad, I don’t want to do that.’ Clemson was the second best for textiles, so that’s why I went down to Clemson, it was farther away from Allentown.
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 ; SC: And were there any, when you were there, was that still an emerging textile area?
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 ; RL: Clemson?
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 ; SC: Out in the…
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 ; RL: Clemson area? Yes.
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 ; SC: That’s what I was wondering, method to madness.
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 ; RL: I mean talk about 1972, yeah it was still big. 0 2994 Levine's Values SC: So what do you value most in life?
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 ; RL: My family. And you know, kids, my wife. Well let’s do my grandchildren, my kids, and my wife...don’t quote me. Family is very important to us. Even today, my daughter must call my wife 10, 15, 20 times a day. And it’s just to talk. My wife lost her sister from cancer probably 20 years ago, so it's, and this is good for her to have my daughter very close. Every morning, I text her and say good morning. So family is very important and that’s why both my boys moved back from Florida and California because you know it’s family, it's all about family. 0 3082 Levine's Inspiration SC: And what has made you feel the most creative in your life? 
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 ; RL: My wife. I mean you know it’s, how creative am I? I don't really know, you know, it's my wife who is really doing the creative part. And I’ve just followed that in the financial part and worked it. Is that a good answer?
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 ; SC: Yeah, it's a good meeting… 
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 ; RL: Really?
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 ; SC: It’s a good match. 0 MovingImage Robert Levine (three generations in Allentown) talks about how S. Levine & ; Sons business was started by his grandfather, a peddler in scrap metal originally and later in textile scrap. Robert’s father and his father’s three brothers entered the business in the mid 1940s and grew it substantially. During its heyday, the Levine business included textile waste, fabric wholesaling, fabric retailing, and purveyor of crafts and notions to fabric and retail stores. By the 1980s, the older generation had either passed away or retired and the Levine business was now run by the next generation, Robert and his cousin Ira. By 1996, between industry decline due to globalization and free-trade and conflicting ideas of how to run the business, the cousins sold off part of the business and closed the other parts of the business. Interview with Robert Levine, June 1, 2017 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is June 1, 2017, interview with Robert Levine, and am I pronouncing that correctly? So I'd like to go first to have you put yourself into place, and say your full name, where you were born, when you were born, and also some things about where you've lived in your life, you know, if you've lived at different places. ROBERT LEVINE: Full name is Robert Kerry Levine. Born and raised in Allentown. Attended the Jewish day school in Allentown. I believe one of the first graduating classes from there. From there, I guess I went to Raub Junior High School, went to Allen High School for a year. Then my parents sent me off to Perkiomen Prep which I did three years there. And then down to Clemson University in Clemson, South Carolina, to get my degree-- four year degree. SC: And also, can you talk a little bit more about any memories you have as a child growing up and what got you into the business? RL: Memories were that my father always worked, and I think from the time I could walk, I probably went to the - as we called it the shop or the warehouse - to help, to get in somebody's way when we were younger. And eventually, every summer, every vacation I did work for my father. SC: And was he in exactly the same businesses as what you then were in? RL: Well, they actually had an unusual business, or unique business, that their father who was born in and married in Russia came over here and had six children. The oldest being Verna, then four brothers, and then the youngest being Rose, who was actually still alive today ; she's 97. Their father went around town with a cart - I guess in that time that's what they had - to collect used metal. The brothers, I believe, were in the fruit business, and they also grew into [selling] fresh fish. Something like they went to the Army, came back, and I think they still. . . I don't know if it was before the Army or after the Army, they still had that business. And then their father somehow started collecting pieces of fabric. So from there they got into the fabric business. They had a warehouse, the first one was actually on Second Street, near Second and Tilghman. And the story I've been told is that they put their father in the corner, let him play with some fabrics and sort them and from that they got involved in the textile waste part of the business. From the textile waste part of the business, they had from some of the manufacturers . . . . Textile waste, for those that don't know, it's when you make out a pattern, the part you scrap that's what they collected. From there they got rolls of fabric that were extra or the manufacturer's contractor sold it. They grew that into selling rolls of fabric to different retail stores, I believe, and to manufacturers who needed the fabric. From there they grew into the textile waste part and the full rolls of fabric. From there they grew into retail stores. With the retail stores, at one point we probably had over 20 retail stores. Some being, one being in the Hess department store downtown. Some being in Fox Food Basket, which was a grocery chain at that time, and freestanding ones. And then you had warehouses throughout the metro, throughout the Allentown area. That one was for the textile waste, one was for the fabrics, from which they sold to the manufacturers at that point. They also got involved with converting your own fabric, meaning when velour was big, they would go to a firm called Fair-Tex, which is a local firm. They would make the fabric for them, and then my father and his brothers, me and my cousins would sell it. In another warehouse, they had fabrics that were sold to retail stores, and also crafts and notions that were sold to retail stores. So in essence it was really four different parts of the business. One being the textile waste, one selling the full rolls of fabric to manufacturers-- for some of them the fabric was newly made, some was overrun, some was excess fabric. Another part [of the business] was the crafts and notions in fabric and retail stores, then the retail stores and the fabric. SC: May I just ask where the different fabric stores were. I remember Levine's in between Ewing and Princeton when I was a kid. Was that your family? RL: Ewing, Princeton, New Jersey? We actually had one in Woodbury, New Jersey and one in Williamstown, New Jersey, so I don't know if that's where you're talking about? SC: No, but I know that I've been to Levine's. RL: Their first one was actually on Ridge Avenue. Actually, no, the first one was on Tilghman Street, in a little, now I think it's a house or something, they converted it to. Then they went to Ridge Avenue. From there they went to Seventh Street. We had them in Colmar, Pennsylvania and probably could remember some of the others. SC: Landsdale, maybe? RL: Well Landsdale and Colmar are the same thing. SC: Yes, yes. So as far as your background, can you talk a little bit more about your parents' background, a little bit more context of your mother's family and father's family. RL: And I think a unique part about my father's and mother's family is my father, like I said, had three other sibling boys who were all in the business. Each one of them had a different part of the business: one was in the office, two were in the textile waste, one was in the fabric part of it. Two of the brothers, the oldest two married a set of sisters. My father and his brother, who was just as old, a little older than him, married a different set of sisters. So again, it's sort of unique that growing up we were very very close. My father's background, and I think the brother's background, they just worked hard and learned from doing whatever they did because they had no college education. High school education was the most they had. SC: That was good though. RL: I think that you know from work, hard work, working hard. Just being there and doing it. SC: Where . . . was everyone from this area, did they all finally settle in this area? Once they . . . before they were married? RL: The four brothers were, yes. SC: And the women? RL: I know about my mother and her sister. They're from here. I'm pretty sure the other two sisters were also from Fountain Hill, Bethlehem, somewhere in this area. Because my father's oldest brother, Morris, I believe he worked at a factory in Northampton. I don't remember the name of it. I don't know if you guys interviewed-- SC: ...different people, we did. RL: Not Kivert, who's-- GAIL EISENBERG: That's who we did. RL: I think that's where he may have ended up. That's...I think so, I'm not 100% sure, though. SC: So do you know anything about the rest of your family, where they came from, did they all come originally from Russia? Or-- RL: My...and my grandfather Sam, whom the company is named after: S. Levine and Sons, with the Sons being his sons. He was from Russia ; his wife was from Russia or my grandma was from Russia. They were married there and then they came here to the states. My mother's side of the family, I really don't know. And the only reason that I know my father's side is because after I spoke to Gail, I figured, I better find out where my father's family is from. So I made a phone call to my father's only living sibling, Rose, who is 97. And we FaceTimed, and she looks exactly like I saw her and remember her. SC: Do you know anything more about, like the maiden names of your family going back-- of the women? RL: Baringoldz is my mother's maiden name. And actually, B-A-R-I-N-G-O-L-D-Z. Actually, she, her brother, there were three sisters and a boy in that family. One of them was actually a Fock, who married a Fock. And then my aunt and my mother married my father and his brother. And Leon Baringoldz, he actually, had a fabric store of his own on Seventh Street. Then he closed that and came to run all of our fabric stores. He was from Allentown. I don't know my grandma's maiden name. SC: Cause sometimes people coming are looking for family members, or distant family members, so it's nice if they can connect with the other people. RL: Yeah, that's what I know. SC: And, so also was the entire family Jewish? RL: Yes. SC: And then other ones, we haven't done this for a little while-- RL: That's ok. GE: Quick question, when were you born? RL: 1950. GE: And then, what brought your grandfather to Allentown? How did he come to Allentown? RL: I have no idea. You know, I could ask my, if I could call you back, I could ask my aunt who's-- GE: Right, right, I'm just curious, it's not public. RL: I know, I don't know, were there a bunch of families that came, fabric families that came to Allentown? SC: Yeah, going through often, through Brooklyn. GE: Someone either brought them or they started out in Brooklyn. RL: So just a note of, personally, my father was in what they called new rags. It was never used, it was new fabrics or new scraps. Whereas my father-in-law was in used clothing in Scranton. My wife and I met at the textile, a rag convention, a wiper convention in Paradise Island. So that's how, that's what brought us together. SC: And the connections, too. RL: Well they sort of knew each other but they really didn't, and they may have said hello or whatever. But then after my wife and I got engaged, all the other families wanted to bring their kids in too, and said 'hey, maybe I can get my kid involved in the textile business.' SC: And it's interesting that your family went from metal, metal scraps to fabric scraps. Would that all be considered schmatta? RL: Schmattas? SC: Yeah. I have a terrible Trenton accent, I'm sorry. RL: I don't know if the metals would be called schmattas, but the rags are schmattas. SC: Yes, okay, I didn't know. So it would've been scraps but it's still some of the same skills, maybe? Or-- RL: It's picking up stuff that nobody can use or wants. SC: You can see value. RL: Well, everything had a value. Someone's scrap was someone else's value. SC: So do you, do you think that the Jewish community was cohesive when you were young and when your parents were young? RL: I think they were, yes. I mean in the textile waste part there were three families involved in the business. Each one of them worked very hard to get their accounts, and it was almost like cut-throat. That if one would pay a nickel a pound, the other one would come in and say seven cents a pound. And really the only one that was benefiting from it was the customer that they were buying it from. And that really went on for as long as I can remember. Once the children got involved, my generation, I know of a family is probably little younger than I am, he would call me and say 'listen why don't one week you guys pick the scrap up, the next week we pick the scraps, and let's buy it cheap.' Our fathers didn't, both sides of the fathers didn't want to have anything to do with it. And I guess it was, you know, their ego. You know, they started from nothing, and it was their account, and it was the way that that generation worked because they worked hard at it, and sweated it, and worked seven days a week to get their accounts. SC: And how about the relationship between the Jewish community and the non-Jewish community. A lot of people we actually interviewed a couple generations, and you would hear, you're young and-- RL: It doesn't matter who you are, or what you believe in. I wouldn't say that about my father or my father-in-law, you know, that's something different. I think my father-in-law has changed, that he realizes that this is what it is. SC: So I think that's it unless you have any more questions about getting into the business? GE: Right, right, well I'll ask you something, but in regards to this, do you want to share with us any memories you have of the local Jewish community growing up? Or, what were the prominent institutions? Was your family active in any thing? RL: Well, like I said, I went to a Jewish Day School, and I was in one of the first graduating classes. My parents belonged to Congregation Sons of Israel which is the Orthodox synagogue in the town. I was bar mitzvahed at 6th Street which was the old Congregation Sons of Israel. By the time I got married we still belonged to Congregation Sons of Israel. The sad part is they told me my dues were based on who my father was. I said 'my father doesn't pay my dues.' And, again, I don't know if this should be talked about, but. And I said 'no, I pay my own dues. It's my value.' And growing up with, and then having some young kids, we weren't sending them to a Jewish day school. So we needed somewhere for them to go to Hebrew school. And at that point, we joined Temple Beth El. GE: And were you or was your family particularly active members? RL: I don't think that they were very active, no, in neither the Sons of Israel or anything else. GE: So I'm going to take this, and I'm going to ask you, you already did. . . you already went into it, but I think I'm going to ask you again, maybe take a step back-- RL: Did I speak too early? Did I say too much? GE: No, not at all, this is your story. But, for you to maybe take a step back and and just maybe a little more slowly, right, tell us a little bit about the businesses. How your . . . .sounds like your grandfather, but especially your father and his brothers really, what was, how did it start? How did it grow? It sounds like it eventually became these four businesses they operated. Which parts of the business, what happened for the next generation? RL: My grandfather had the pushcart and for some reason, he got some fabrics. And at that point, I don't know how much fabric it was but I guess my father and his brothers thought that this would be a good thing, rather than the fruit stand and the fresh fish. So they all worked together on Second Street. Mostly with the textile waste part, and then they grew into full rolls of fabric. Either they were extra from the manufacturers that they weren't using to make their garments, or from the contractors there was often extra. I think at one point, the manufacturers who had contractors making their fabric would send in thousands of yards, maybe they only needed 500 yards. And it would get lost in the shuffle. And at that point, my father's business, they bought the fabric. So they started with the textile waste part and the full rolls of fabric, excess fabric, over cuts, or whatever you want to call it. Then from Second Street, they moved to a couple other warehouses, one being in Catasauqua, which was just wipers. What wipers are, it's a bigger piece of fabric, bigger than your hand that someone can use for cleaning, the government used it, and for whatever else they could use it. The textile waste part was in Catasauqua, and there they sorted the different types of fabric out. They would try to teach the contractors and manufacturers when they were cutting something, their patterns, if they were cutting cotton, only put cotton in the burlap bag that our business would pick up. If there were cutting polyester, only polyester [in a bag]. If they were cutting only burgundy polyester, keep that in one bag. And it was more valuable at that point, whites were more valuable. The polyester scraps, a lot of that got sent to, I guess converters or someone who would break apart the fabric, and now they would already have a yarn dyed thread. So it was one less step that they would have to do. Some of it was made into the roofs of cars. A lot of it was made into paper and sometimes, I don't know if they still do it, sometimes you see recycled paper, or recycled fabrics, which was from the type of fabrics. Then from, that was in Allentown, they had a warehouse that would be just for the full rolls of fabric, and an upstairs was the 'craft and notions' and the downstairs for the full rolls of fabric but also the, what they called double fold fabric, which would go into the retail stores. And then at one point, and it may have been 1986, we put all the businesses in one building. My father and his brother Ben ran the textile waste part of it. His brother Irving ran the fabric part of it. All the fabric whether it was for the retail stores or for the manufacturers. And his oldest brother, Morris, was more the financial guy, but also in the 'craft and notions' part of the business. Each one of the brothers had one son. Morris' son, who was an excellent carpenter, came into the business, and none of us worked under our fathers. We all worked under uncles. That's what, that's what they wanted. Arthur was involved in the wiper part of the business in the textile waste part. My cousin Jeffrey, who was Irving's son, I have to rephrase, he was the only one who worked under his father. He didn't really want to work, he didn't really like the work. He did not last long. He moved out to California or Arizona somewhere. Ira worked under Irving, which is the second oldest brother in the textile part of it, and I worked under Morris, who was in the financial part and the 'crafts and notions' part. And everything was great, and then you bring everybody... and everybody did their own little thing. It was all dollars came into one pot. Then we moved out to, we built a building out towards Iron Run where everything was together: the textile waste part was one part, the fabrics to the manufacturers were in part of the building, the retail fabrics, crafts and notions were in the other part of the building, and we all had our offices there. GE: I'm sorry, that was 1990, or something? RL: I think around 1986. At that point, my uncle Morris, who was the oldest brother, had passed. He actually passed on Front Street where he was involved in the financial part, at the switchboard. And that's probably where he wanted to pass. His next brother, Irving, passed, so it was really only my father and his brother, who was a bit older than him, left in the business when we moved out to the Iron Run industrial park outside of that. By then, Arthur had already moved to Florida and so it was just Ira, who was Ben's son, and myself that were working in business, so it was really only four of us. Then at one point, my father took, went to Florida, and stayed there. Ben also, if I remember correctly, went to Florida -- much later than my father. And then it was Ira and I running the whole company. GE: And this was what time period? RL: I would say almost the late 1980s. GE: Okay, and how are the different, how were the four businesses doing? Were they all still-- RL: Successful. GE: Okay. RL: And then we also had all of the retail stores, which my mother's brother ran all the retail stores. At one point his office was in one store, and then he moved into the warehouse with us. So that's how the business was running. And then at one point, we decided that we didn't want it, it wasn't right for us, the times weren't right, and we literally closed everything down. We sold out of the retail stores, and just closed them. And we closed the wholesale operation. GE: And that was about when? RL: I want to say 1996. GE: Oh, so by 1996, the retail was closed and the wholesale was closed? RL: Everything was closed. GE: Okay, okay. RL: We still own the building so we rented that out. GE: Right, okay. RL: And at that point when we closed, it was only Ira and myself left. GE: Okay, um, so those last five years, I'm assuming part of it was that the businesses were slowing down? RL: Slowing down and-- GE: Different points of view about-- RL: The sons got married, and it was just problems, Jewish problems. GE: Right. RL: And you know, that and everybody wasn't getting along as we used to. Because growing up, my father and his brother Ben and my mother, who was called Tootie,and her sister Dorothy, we lived in a twin house. And we had a hole cut through it so we could walk back and forth. My parents had their baby, my sister first, so we got to move into, actually my aunt's house, and they moved into our house, and we just lived like that. And then at one point, they had to close up the wall because too many things were being thrown back and forth. GE: So the business ended in '96 but at that point it was still a thriving business. RL: It was slowing down. GE: Because I wanted to ask you, what do you see as being some of the factors that led to it slowing down? RL: I think the family members not getting along. I think the industry in itself. Because even with the retail stores, you could buy clothing cheaper than you can make it at that point. The textile waste part just lost what was made overseas so there was no textile waste. You know, how many manufacturers and contractors were left here. So I think it was just time that ; we just wanted to close it. GE: And so now do you want to share with us a little bit what you have done since? RL: Since then, we have the building, which we rent out. It's about a 130,000 square-foot warehouse. I happen to own 60% of it because I had 20%, I got my father's 20%, and I got my one cousin's, who lives in Florida.I bought his 20%. Ira in a sense had 20%, and his parents may have still been living, they had 20%. They both passed. They gave 10% of their share to their daughter, who had passed to her kids, and they gave 10% to Ira. So in a sense, Ira's sister's children, the three of them own 10%, Ira owns 30% of the building, and I own 60%. And, I guess I got married in '75, so we started making clothing, my wife and I. We had our own contracting facility that we actually made our own. First we had other people making it, then we started making it ourselves, and then we made garments for other people. Most of it was garment dyed. We had someone making sweaters for us, and everything would get dyed together. And we were selling to J Jill, Black-and-White, and a lot of boutique-type stores. And that business also was again, the retail stores of clothing was becoming less and less. So we closed that. And at the end of that business actually we were making pilates clothing, which was exercise clothing. And through the whole time, we had franchises of Benetton, and we had three stores, and we also had an ice cream franchise called Hillary's. And we closed all of those franchises, and I couldn't sit at home and just do nothing and that's why we started making the ladies clothing. Then once, at the end, like I said, we were making pilates clothing, and we advertised in a magazine, and we did a show out in California. My wife is a great baker besides designing clothes, and knitting and whatever. We were making biscotti, she was making some for our children because her mother used to send my kids biscotti and she said 'mom, I can make it taste better.' So we took some of our samples that my wife made of biscotti out to California to give it to the magazine and at that point they said, 'oh, could you do our corporate gifts?' And here we are, we didn't have a commercial kitchen, we didn't have a commercial oven, we had nothing commercial. And I said, 'sure, we'll do that for you.' It started out to be 100 tins, a hundred pounds, a pound in each tin. We bought a commercial mixer, put it in our house, and we had two commercial ovens that were electric put into our house. And in year one we started doing corporate gifts for this magazine. It turned out to be 1500 tins and 1500 pounds later. And someone who got that [biscotti] as a gift, that company, the next year, they wanted us to send it out to their customers. So we worked out of our house for two years doing corporate gifts. We worked Thanksgiving . . . from November to January. And we said, 'you know what, maybe we have something, let's open a retail store.' So we opened up a retail store. We got involved in the fancy food show in New York. So we have been doing that. It's been about 11 years now. We are selling at this point to some major grocery chains. We're in the second-largest coffee chain in the United States, mostly private label. And we were just on QVC for the third time. And a lot of small coffee shops, and again a lot of what we do is private label. As a matter of fact, someone who was in one of the coffee shops was a friend of someone who worked for us and they said, 'you know what I was in this coffee shop, looked like your biscotti, it tasted like your biscotti, but your name wasn't on it.' And, yes it was ours. So that's where we are right now, we have this bakery, one location and we're shipping all over for it. So it has been fun. It's retail and it's also wholesale. It's off of 512 in Bethlehem. GE: And so-- RL: Excuse me, we only do biscotti and cookies. We did rugelach, it just got too time-consuming. We do granola which we do some, we again, we do private label for some people. And we do brownies. My Boy's Baking. GE: So at this point you have this business, and you still have the warehouse. Is the warehouse pretty much rented out? RL: Once we moved out, it was rented to a return center for K-Mart. And the return center, what the return center is anything from a store that someone returns-- as you know you can go to any store and return whatever-- and it goes back to a return center. So you figure it was 130,000 square feet of merchandise that people . . . and they have six of these throughout the United States. K-Mart, when they closed, we were . . . it was empty for about six months, and we got another company in there who took the whole space, and it's a plastic company. They've been in there for ten years, and they signed another contract for five. GE: Good, good. Do you have any fond memories about the business that you want to share with us, any kind of anecdotes working, either working with your dad and uncles, or the time it was the cousins. Any particular stories that you want to share? RL: Well, it was unique that my father and his brothers could scream . . . if they had a huge argument, two seconds later, it was forgotten. When you get cousins involved and uncles involved, it doesn't happen like that. So I think that was, you know, you sort of get used to that. Memories I had was that every time I had a vacation, if it was from high school, if it was from college, I'd come and work in the business. And I tried to learn every part of the business, and I expected if I wanted, I would sweep floors. If I wanted my employees to sweep floors, they can't say well you never did it. I taught myself to drive a tractor-trailer. I love driving it, it's a good truck. So I was in, and I was in a retail store. So I was really in all aspects of the business. Not saying I knew everything about it, but G-d-forbid I could at least fudge my way through it. But I just loved to work there. It was just so much fun, and we had great employees which is very important. GE: About how many employees did you have? RL: At one point, 300 employees, throughout the retail stores and the warehouse. GE: Okay, wow, and about total sales, it may be interesting to hear of total sales and perhaps separately total profits. What percent was the retail, was the waste, was the fabric? Any, any-- RL: That's a business question, I could tell. GE: Yeah, but any feel for that? Which one was particularly small, large? In terms of sales and in terms of profits. RL: I don't know what percentages, but I would think the fabric to the manufacturers was probably the largest percentage. Under that was the sales to retail stores, and then our stores, our retail stores, and the textile waste. And probably the reason for that is because when you're selling a tractor trailer load of fabric, the dollar amount was a lot more than when we are selling a tractor trailer load of scrap. GE: Right, now just out of curiosity, so there you gave us a sense of the order in terms of sales, terms of the topline. What might it be in terms of profit, in terms of at least margin? RL: I would think it'd be almost the same thing. GE: Oh so, okay, okay, as to which ones would have had a higher margin compared to lower margin. RL: Because if you're picking up fabric from, and this is a business part of it, if you're buying someone's fabric that they have no more use for, you can buy it cheaper than if you have to go and make it yourself or buy from someone who's making it for you. So the profit was there. The retail stores sales were sort of like a set profit, and part of what brought down the wholesale to the crafts/notions and fabrics is the manufacturer's of a Coats and Clark, which was a thread company. They would start selling to customers directly and cutting out the wholesaler and at that point we could not compete. So that part of the business, a lot of the fabric people, if it were a Concord fabric or any other name fabrics that we were distributing, they would be out there selling in a sense our customers not because they knew they were our customers but because they themselves can get a higher dollar for that piece of fabric than they would if they sell it to us. Even though we may buy one- hundred pieces and someone is only buying ten pieces. GE: Right, right. They didn't protect their wholesalers. RL: Right. GE: So I think that's mostly...any other...what have you seen, so I don't know if you have anything to reflect on, you know, you've been here, it sounds like a minimum 40-50 years-- RL: 67 years. GE: Right, right, but I mean that you can even reflect on, right? And so very much change right in terms of what the textile industry had been locally compared to its little existence today. RL: The textile waste part because everybody was making stuff overseas so there was no more textile waste. GE: Right. RL: So yeah, it's diminished tremendously. GE: Right, what impact do you think it's had on the Lehigh Valley on the general community and what impact do you think it had on the Jewish community? If anything. RL: I don't know, well I think...I don't know if it's really had an impact except maybe for prosperity or you know that's what I was doing. Now even when we closed our business, I was devastated so what am I going to give my kids, I have nothing to give my kids. And again that's probably a Jewish thing. Maybe not, but what do I give my kids, I have nothing to give them. So I was very upset about that part. And I remember talking to the cantor and he said, no-- it was actually the rabbi, and he said, 'don't worry about it ; they'll find their own.' So I did forget, I was a contractor making flags also for a company that now had moved to Florida, excuse me to South Carolina. And they would give me the rolls of fabric, which were flags, I would take them to a contractor, and they would cut the flag out and sew it. We also did tablecloths for department stores if it was for a certain cosmetic company. We did NASCAR flags, we did the US flag, all kinds of different things. GE: At that point was that part of the Levine business or was that was part of yours and your wife's.. RL: No, that was a part of my own. GE: Right, okay, your own business. What was that business called? RL: Well I kept it under Rosey's Creations, which was my, our fabric part of the business. GE: Okay-- RL: Rosey's being R-O-S-E-Y Creations. Just, you didn't ask about My Boy's Baking. My wife and I have three children, grown, and actually three grandchildren, which is better than having the children, but don't record that. Your thoughts also? GE: No, I don't have them yet. RL: Oh, it's the best, GE: I look forward to it. RL: But, when my daughter was young, she used to say, 'where are my boys?' So we really didn't want to call it biscotti, we didn't want to give it . . . because what do we do if we start making cookies? So that's how we got the name My Boy's Baking from. Actually, my daughter . . . because people would go to her and say aren't you upset that it's called "My Boy's.." and she would say no because that's what I called them. GE: So while Sue is thinking about that, I also have a question. In the textile industry, it is dominated, or at least it was dominated by a lot of Jewish families, why do you think that's the case? Why do you think the Jewish community was dominant in that industry? RL: Probably because once someone was doing it and another Jewish person said, 'oh, maybe I should do it.' No, I really don't know because there are a lot of Italians in it too. GE: Right. RL: But Italians and the Jewish people are sort of similar. GE: Right, right. RL: And they all got, we all got along. GE: Right, right, any thoughts as to why those two groups? RL: Get along? GE: Or were in that industry? What about that industry made it attractive? RL: I really don't know. I mean just maybe for the enjoyment of it. It could be enjoyment. SC: Okay, I think I...my question is-- RL: In our retail stores or our host operation, we would sell remnants of fabrics, maybe a yard or two yards. I know in the retail stores, people would come in and say 'I want a quarter yard of this, I want a quarter yard of that,' which is very not cost-effective for us. But it was mainly to make the quilts and stuff. And we had all the supplies for it, you know, the thread, the fabric, and the stuffing or the foam that went in it. SC: So it was five or more and they were more profitable RL: Yeah because when you're cutting, it costs you just as much to cut 10 yards of fabric as it cost you to cut a quarter yard of fabric. And it's not just one quarter yard, they want 5 quarter yards. SC: Do you still feel comfortable talking about your daughters and where they worked-- RL: My children? SC: Yeah. RL: No, I'm very proud of them. SC: Good, go for it! I should have asked you that before. RL: My oldest son, Joshua, is married and has two sons. He works for Stephen Starr Restaurants. They have about 47 restaurants, each one of them . . . mainly out of Philadelphia. Each one pretty much has a different theme. They've opened in Florida, they've opened in Washington DC, and they've opened in New York. Actually Stephen Starr just won the James Beard Award, which is like a nationwide or worldwide top honor. One of his restaurants in New York, Le Coucou, a French restaurant, just also won the James Beard for the best restaurant. Le Coucou was voted the best restaurant in New York. My son Joshua runs all forty-seven restaurants ; from opening them, helping to open, to buying the supplies for the restaurants. And actually he started out, our family was very ice hockey oriented, so he went to school in Colorado, University of Colorado, and he was a ref for the semi-pros out on the West Coast. All my children went to Camp Canadensis, which is up in the Poconos. It's an overnight camp for two months or seven weeks. He, at one point, when he decided he didn't really like the life of an ice hockey ref, he went to work for the camp that they went to-- Camp Canadensis to help run the camp. He did that for a couple of years and the lady was supposed to possibly sell us the camp, and she reneged on it. So he interviewed at Stephen Starr Restaurants. And they said you don't have any restaurant experience, we really don't need you. Six months later, he saw the same ad in the paper, and went back to them and said, 'listen, obviously you haven't hired anybody.' And at that point, they hired him on the spot. He started out as assistant manager. He wanted to be a chef, but realized that you start out as assistant manager, manager, district manager, and now he runs all forty-seven restaurants. My son Andrew, who is two years younger than Josh, went to University of Colorado and when his brother left, he went to George Washington. George Washington in DC. And he became a teacher. He taught, first he taught at Radnor School District, actually he taught at a charter school in Philadelphia, fifth grade. Then he went to Radnor School, fifth grade teacher, then he got a job in a private school, Episcopal Academy, as a fifth grade teacher. He's married. They have a little girl who's 14 months old. My daughter-in-law, his wife, Debbie, got a promotion to her job and moved to Florida and after a year they realized that they wanted to be around family. And actually, Josh, for nine months moved out to California with his two children and wife and decided that when they all got sick one day and said, 'you know what, we have nobody here.' They came back to Philadelphia. Josh lives in Philadelphia, Andrew lives in Malvern. My daughter, Rachel, is an accountant. She is single and living in Philadelphia also. As a matter of fact, my son's Joshua's wife, Jill, works for an entertainment group who goes around and does bar mitzvahs and weddings and the dancers and the disc jockeys. And her brother, who happened to be Josh's counselor at camp, said, 'you know what, the Levines are having a bat mitzvah and your company's doing it, why don't you see if you can work it?' So she came to work my daughter's bat mitzvah, not being with my son or not, and a couple years later on the JDate said are you the Jill Rosen that... so we have videos of her, which she will not let us play of her performing at my daughter's bat mitzvah. And then we have the two grandchildren, Brody and Cooper. Brody just turned eight, and Cooper is six. He plays ice hockey and is travelling. As you can tell we have an ice hockey family. And then we have a granddaughter, Winnie Rose. GE: Wonderful. RL: Oh, Rachel did go to Pitt. SC: Oh, I remember the question. Is there a reason why you went down South to Clemson, only because there were-- RL: Philadelphia Textile was the number one school. I did not get in on my own. I was probably not a very good student, and my father said, 'we must know somebody.' And I said, 'Dad, I don't want to do that.' Clemson was the second best for textiles, so that's why I went down to Clemson, it was farther away from Allentown. SC: And were there any, when you were there, was that still an emerging textile area? RL: Clemson? SC: Out in the-- RL: Clemson area? Yes. SC: That's what I was wondering, method to madness. RL: I mean talk about 1972, yeah it was still big. SC: And then of course more and more textiles--[inaudible] RL: Down South around the country. SC: Wow, that's wonderful. I'm so glad that you talked about your children and grandchildren. GE: So now we just have a few final questions. SC: A few touchy feely questions. RL: Is that going to make me cry? GE: Depends on how you answer it. RL: You know why, because when I saw my Aunt Rose, it was the first time I saw her-- GE: Is she in Florida? RL: No, she's in New York, living with her son. I've seen her son on Facebook, and we've talked a little bit. And then when I figured I'd have to ask questions. So he called and I called him back, and he said, wait a minute, do you have an iPhone? We could FaceTime. And I'm telling you, she looks exactly the same. SC: That's so wonderful. RL: So it was, that was very emotional for me. SC: This is just a who you are type of question. So what do you value most in life? RL: My family. And you know, kids, my wife. Well let's do my grandchildren, my kids, and my wife...don't quote me. Family is very important to us. Even today, my daughter must call my wife 10, 15, 20 times a day. And it's just to talk. My wife lost her sister from cancer probably 20 years ago, so it's, and this is good for her to have my daughter very close. Every morning, I text her and say good morning. So family is very important and that's why both my boys moved back from Florida and California because you know it's family, it's all about family. And whereas we thought my daughter-in-law's, they weren't as, they weren't, I don't want to say weren't as close, one daughter-in-law was not. But we thought they'd resent it because we were so close to our kids. And, you know what, both my daughters-in-law call my wife now for questions or stuff. So it's, family is very very important. I remember when my oldest grandson Brody was sick in Philadelphia. If we had to go down there, I would close the bakery early to go down there and my wife would babysit one day a week, and I would leave to take her down, I would come back to work, and go back down. So family is very very important to us. SC: And what has made you feel the most creative in your life? RL: My wife. I mean you know it's, how creative am I? I don't really know, you know, it's my wife who is really doing the creative part. And I've just followed that in the financial part and worked it. Is that a good answer? SC: Yeah, it's a good meeting-- RL: Really? SC: It's a good match. RL: She's said she saved me, so. SC: Thank you so much. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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00:51:59
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Robert Levine, June 1, 2017
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Robert Levine (three generations in Allentown) talks about how S. Levine & Sons business was started by his grandfather, a peddler in scrap metal originally and later in textile scrap. Robert’s father and his father’s three brothers entered the business in the mid 1940s and grew it substantially. During its heyday, the Levine business included textile waste, fabric wholesaling, fabric retailing, and purveyor of crafts and notions to fabric and retail stores. By the 1980s, the older generation had either passed away or retired and the Levine business was now run by the next generation, Robert and his cousin Ira. By 1996, between industry decline due to globalization and free-trade and conflicting ideas of how to run the business, the cousins sold off part of the business and closed the other parts of the business.
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2017-06-01
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
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Nathan Braunstein
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5.4 December 12, 2015 Nathan and Marilyn Braunstein, December 12, 2015 LVTNT-30 1:20:23 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Nathan Braunstein Marilyn Braunstein Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 BraunsteinNathan_Marilyn_20151212 1.0:|19(3)|30(4)|41(9)|52(16)|67(2)|80(12)|95(13)|110(2)|123(16)|144(2)|169(6)|190(16)|207(3)|232(2)|253(12)|274(7)|291(3)|310(7)|327(13)|350(10)|367(8)|394(2)|419(14)|440(4)|461(12)|484(12)|505(11)|524(7)|545(7)|562(3)|581(12)|596(11)|617(8)|630(12)|643(3)|650(15)|661(14)|676(7)|693(3)|704(3)|723(4)|738(2)|757(8)|772(9)|789(7)|804(14)|819(9)|834(10)|849(3)|864(8)|879(9)|894(7)|911(2)|922(12)|937(6)|952(5)|967(9)|984(2)|997(12)|1016(6)|1029(2)|1040(13)|1059(8)|1074(8)|1087(12)|1100(10)|1115(3)|1128(6)|1141(4)|1162(4)|1179(8)|1198(6)|1213(17)|1230(12)|1245(12)|1256(14)|1271(8)|1282(9)|1303(5)|1320(19)|1321(14) 0 https://youtu.be/FqQAn_lR6uc YouTube video 0 Introduction—Nathan Braunstein SC: Okay, would you- Ready? Would you start by telling your full name, where you were born, and when you were born?
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 ; NB: My name is Nathan Braunstein. I was born in Linden, New Jersey, on August 21st, 1927. 0 24 Nathan's Family History SC: And can you tell me about your family, as far back as you know — where they were from, who they were, what they did?
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 ; NB: My mother came to the United States from Warsaw, Poland. And my father came from a small shtetl called Bludova [?] in Poland also. And they met in the United States. The beginning of my mother's story is a little different than my father's story. My mother was married at the age about I would say could have been 15 or 16 to a man that lived in her shtetl. And when the- after they were married, she had a son by the name of Harry. And this man, I'll call Mr. Retarsky, [?] decided to go to the United States and then call for my mother and his son later. 0 399 Nathan's Education SC: So could you talk a little bit about your schooling, you know, when you grew up, go through your life?
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 ; NB: My schooling was...a maze of schools. The reason for that is when you were- when you managed apparel factories in those years, the owners would want to have someone get their factories running straight and good, and then they would no longer want the expense of having a manager. So we moved around a lot in my life. I must have gone to four or five different elementary schools in my life, and junior high schools 0 494 Moving to Allentown, PA SC: So do you remember when you came to Allentown, when your family came to Allentown?
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 ; NB: Certainly. I was 17 when I came to Allentown. My father had died a couple of months before, and my brother from my mother's side was working here for his father, who owned the factory. And my brother was kind enough to have us live with him and his mother — you know, my mother and his family. 0 540 Early Experiences in the Apparel Industry SC: Did you work any place before you got into the business and then I'll pass it over.
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 ; NB: Well, I did some work for my brother's father — I worked in the office, which was...
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 ; SC: Yeah, that was it. You weren't a paper boy or anything like that? You didn’t work before [the business] — any casual jobs or anything?
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 ; NB: I did some odd jobs. I worked at the school a little bit.
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 ; SC: At your high school or at Lafayette?
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 ; NB: When I went to Lafayette. 0 678 1951: First Business Fails GE: You're saying you did not want to stay there as an employee, you wanted to go out on your own and start your own type of business?
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 ; NB: Well, I knew that I was going to be in business. I always knew that.
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 ; GE: And I'm just curious, what made you decide that? What reasons? What do you think contributed to that?
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 ; NB: Well I gave up education. I felt I was good enough to make my mark in the manufacturing field.
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 ; GE: And did you know you were going to be — given you were working already in the apparels — did you know you were going to be in the apparel business?
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 ; NB: Well there was a need. Most of the people that made dresses and sportswear would have to send extra material to New York to have belts made for the garments. So I felt there was a need for someone to do that [locally] in Pennsylvania and the Northeast. 0 847 Nathan's Brother—Creating a Family Business NB: In the meantime, my brother on my father's side also went out on his own and he closed that factory. So we got together, and we started another belt company. And from that — he worked on the inside and I worked on the outside — and we started to build a business. 
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 ; GE: So do you feel that between what happened, where your business went under, and then spending the year working at the belt company, then you started to really-
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 ; NB: Which gave me more pointers about belts and things. 
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 ; GE: Right, about what would succeed, about what you would need.
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 ; NB: And that was enough.
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 ; GE: How about your brother? Did he have- I mean, he had general, you know, inside experience from the factory.
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 ; NB: My brother was a garment cutter. That was his trade. He cut the fabric to make garments, I got that he got the fabric to make garments, but then he had a little sewing factory, which also didn't do well.
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 ; GE: And with the belts, what he would need to do on the inside, he had all that-
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 ; NB: He liked my idea about the belts, and we started up. Very small. 0 956 Building the Business—'Kickbacking' GE: And so, want to tell us a little bit about that progression?
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 ; NB: Well he and I did everything in the factory except sew, so we got a few girls that stuck with us throughout my career, actually. Got a few girls, and they came and sewed for us, and we put the belts together and gradually grew. What's the strange thing is: all the people that I thought that we would get business from locally was very difficult to get the business from them because the manufacturers in New York controlled [them], and they wanted the belts to come to New York rather than have someone making them in Pennsylvania, even though they could save money. And I had to break through that. I did that with a lot of badgering, nagging, and making a pest of myself. I was likeable. 0 1115 Fashion in the '50-80s: Women's Shirtwaists, Men's Slacks GE: And you want to tell us, share with us a little bit why at this time in this — you know, especially in the 50s — just tell us a little bit about the kinds of clothes that the women were wearing and the shirtwaists, dresses, and the belts, because many of us don't necessarily remember that.
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 ; NB: I don’t know how to explain that. The shirtwaists was a bonanza, started by the Villager Company — you remember the Villager?
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 ; GE: I do. 
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 ; NB: And everybody made shirtwaists, and shirtwaists was a bonanza for belt manufacturers. And that's what started to grow my business. Really grew it. And then what made it even bigger is men’s slacks — [men] would put belts on their slacks. Men’s slacks manufacturers would be putting their own belts on slacks. So I learned to cover the men's market, too. 0 1307 Product, Label, & ; Clients GE: So just so I understand, when you were doing it more, where you were selling it to the manufacturer, in a sense it was just part of the garment, right? 
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 ; NB: Right.
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 ; GE: Where the second time, when it's the retail, that's where you were selling it where it's an accessory that somebody bought separately.
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 ; NB: Well I never used our name.It was the store name or… 
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 ; GE: Or the brand name. Well especially the first time. 
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 ; NB: Whoever we made it for. 
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 ; GE: When you did retail, that was probably the store name, correct?
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 ; NB: Yeah. We made a lot of belts for the Limited. For the Limited Express, for... 0 1361 Decline of the Business GE: And when did you see things begin to get more challenging because of, you know, the competitors going overseas? 
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 ; NB: The 90s, the late 90s.
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 ; GE: Oh that was already that late?
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 ; NB: ‘91, ‘92.
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 ; GE: So it really thrived, then, through the 80s. And it was really not until the ‘90s that you were really being challenged. Okay, and then a little bit [of] what happened? What happened and how fast did things start going down? 
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 ; NB: Pretty fast. Pretty fast. In fact, when I got the idea that I should sell — it took me two years to really make up my mind. I should have sold when I got the idea.
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 ; GE: When did you finally sell? 
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 ; NB: ‘93. 0 1434 Nathan's Clients (cont'd) GE: Nate, want to share with us some of the different manufacturers, different brands that you produced- that you manufactured for? You just said a few, but we didn’t get it on tape.
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 ; NB: David Crystal. I don’t even remember the names anymore.
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 ; GE: Evan Picone.
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 ; SC: John Meyer of Norwich. 0 1505 Employees GE: How many people did you have working at the factory at its peak?
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 ; NB: At the height, 200. 
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 ; GE: Wow. And was it mostly the operators or like- what did the work workforce consist of?
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 ; NB: Well, at the beginning it was a lot of operators ; but then I didn’t need as many operators.
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 ; GE: Because the machinery…?
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 ; NB: In order to fight what was going on in the Middle East- [I mean] in Asia, I must have spent close to a million dollars just in automatic machinery — to make billions, but to no avail. 0 1657 Niche Success of the Belt Business GE: At its peak, when you were making- when you were getting orders of the 200,000 things — how many other belt producers were there in the area? Were you still the only one? 
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 ; NB: Only one. Because it's a specialty thing. That's why I wanted to do something different. I didn't want to make a dress like everybody else was making it. Right. Right, right.
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 ; GE: You really carved out your own niche, your own specialization. 0 1760 Producing for the Manufacturers Versus Retailers GE: Nate, you had started out working with manufacturing ; then, when you had to, also introduced [your belts] into the retailers. What were some of the new challenges for you?
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 ; NB: New challenges were when you dealt with retailers, you didn't deal with owners — what you dealt [with] was buyers. And if you learn about kickbacks, that's kickbacks! Well I learned how to deal with buyers, that’s all. It’s just simple. And every time a new buyer came in, we’d have to start from scratch all over again.
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 ; GE: And I assume buyer's turnover. In other words, the owner stays, but the buyers — it's constantly a new market. 0 1934 Nathan's Involvement in the Jewish Community—Hadassah & ; the UJA GE: So do you want to share with us a little bit about your community involvement? ‘Cause that was another big part of your life. 
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 ; NB: Well, we'll go back to Hadassah. 
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 ; GE: That’d be great.
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 ; NB: Hadassah was my building stone, for getting above. What I feel that I could do for the Jews, myself. 0 2557 Introduction—Marilyn Braunstein SC: Today is December 12, 2015, the interview with Marilyn Braunstein. And I'm going to start with your background. Can you tell me as much about- first of all, your full name and your date of birth and where you were born?
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 ; MB: Okay. My name is Marilyn Kobrovsky Braunstein. I am a native Allentownian. I was born here at Sacred Heart Hospital in 1930, which makes me 85 — 85 happy years. I'm very happy to be part of this interview that you're doing. 0 2619 Marilyn's Family History SC: Can you go back just a little bit and talk about your parents, your brothers and sisters — your parents and grandparents, what their names were and where they were born?
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 ; MB: My paternal grandparents name is Lazar and Lena Kobrovsky. They were born in Russia, Poland- I don't remember. I don't remember the town, but my Grandfather Lazer came to the United States by himself and left my grandmother and my father and his sister in Poland. And he came by himself. He came to Allentown because he had a landsman [Yiddish-- someone from the same town back in Poland/Russia] here. I guess that's how everybody kind of arrived here. And his landmans was Edward Schneider, who was in the . . . I guess in the junk business or peddling or something. And he lived in his house until 1902 or 3, I’m not sure. Until he brought my grandmother and my father over to this country and then they were out on their own. 0 3163 The '40s: Anti-Semitism at Muhlenberg Elementary School SC: Can you talk a little bit about where you were born and, you know, your- well you talked about your birthday, but your early life — what you remember, where you went to school, and how eventually how you met Nate.
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 ; MB: For some reason, all the Jews in Allentown lived on South 16th Street. That was where everybody moved. My father, being different, moved us to 22nd in Allen — there were no Jews. None. Okay, so I went to this elementary school — Muhlenberg, which is still in existence — and there were maybe five Jewish kids in the school. They were not so wonderful to me. They didn't include me in things. And I never thought of it, anything of it. Just like when they picked guards for crossing the street, everybody got the job except me. It was kind of- that was my first experience with anti-Semitism. 0 3350 Meeting Nathan Braunstein at Allentown High School MB: Then we went to Allen High, which was a fantastic school in those days. Everybody who was living outside the city limits wanted to go to Allentown High. Through the years, the school deteriorated to not such a great place, but in those years it was wonderful. Morty Sher was one of our teachers. He was very involved with the Jewish community and the Center. He was a- was he an English teacher? I don’t quite remember. I met Nate when I was a senior in high school. He had just- or was I a junior? I don’t remember. He was from New Bedford, Massachusetts. He came to Allentown when he was a senior, and he came here because when living in New Bedford, his father suddenly passed away. So he and his mother came to Allentown because Nate had a brother living here who had a business. 0 3524 1950s: Married Life at Tremont Apartments MB: Nate and I got married on August 6th, 1950. He was working for his brother and we moved to Tremont Apartments. Everybody, all the young couples, everybody moved [there] when they got married. It was really a nice place. I don't know if there were any Jewish people living there today, but it was filled with young Jewish couples — and then, maybe two years later, with the baby carriages. 0 3611 Marilyn Braunstein's Service to Hadassah MB: I think the first organization that I got involved with was the Auxiliary of the Jewish Community Center, because I always loved the Center. And then some of my friends — we had joined Hadassah too, which I belonged to — and then I became very active in Hadassah. Hadassah taught me to be a Jew. They taught me how to be as philanthropic as I could, because they always had quotas that we had to make, to send money to National. That was very important. And we always had National women come in and speak to us, and they really got us very enthused. 0 4245 The Women of Hadassah MB: I have a picture of all the presidents up to one that came after me. Mrs. Leonard was the founder, and her house is now the President's House of Muhlenberg. Beautiful house. I was never in it- yes I was, I was. She used to cook Hungarian meals for us. She was an elegant lady. 
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 ; SC: So it was on Leh Street, it was the Leh Street house? 
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 ; MB: This is Mrs. Leonard.
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 ; GE: This is Marilyn, next to the top. 
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 ; SC: So if you want to talk about some of the other women, that’s fine. 
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 ; GE: I remember you talking about it a little bit, about your experiences with Joyce Kitey. 0 4597 Marilyn's Values and Inspirations SC: So what do you value most in life? What have you valued in life? 
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 ; MB: Learning how to give. Which it wasn’t really [Hadassah] — that was my husband. He taught me how to give. I always thought I taught him. But as it worked out... Anyway, after Hadassah, all my friends got involved with other things. I became active with UJA. And then I was Campaign Chairman and President of Hadassah. We would go out to different chapters in the area and speak. We were very famous. Allentown, everybody, I think, was envious of us.
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 ; NB: They were like the posse, going out, spreading Judaism. 0 4694 Nathan Braunstein's Opinion on Changes in Hadassah NB: Can I interject something?
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 ; SC: Sure.
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 ; NB: Hadassah became weak because the younger women started to have careers, to not- were not the stay-at-home moms that Hadassah grew with. That's what kept Hadassah strong in communities. But with the growing need, the need of two incomes in families, with women that had careers of their own, Hadassah itself became weak. It's still the biggest organization, women's organization, but it became weak because of that. 0 MovingImage Nate Braunstein talks about first failing then succeeding in operating a belt factory with his brother. The business (Atlantic Apparel) began in the 1950s when women’s fashion commonly included shirt-waist dresses with a matching belt (same fabric) and some men’s pants had that, too. Nate’s factory made the belts. They were a component of the dress. As fashion changed, and there was little demand for fabric belts, Atlantic Apparel had to pivot to thinking about belts as an accessory item and selling to retailers rather than as a component of the dress or pants and selling to the manufacturers.
 ; 
 ; 
 ; Marilyn Braunstein talks about her idyllic life growing up in Allentown and visiting both sets of grandparents and playing with her many cousins. One of Marilyn’s proudest affiliations is with Hadassah. Marilyn was a member, officer, and eventually president of Lehigh Valley Hadassah Organization. At the time of Marilyn’s presidency, Hadassah had a strong presence in the Lehigh Valley.
 ; Interview with Nathen Braunstein, December 12th, 2015 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Okay, would you- Ready? Would you start by telling your full name, where you were born, and when you were born? NATHAN BRAUNSTEIN: My name is Nathan Braunstein. I was born in Linden, New Jersey, on August 21st, 1927. SC: And can you tell me about your family, as far back as you know -- where they were from, who they were, what they did? NB: My mother came to the United States from Warsaw, Poland. And my father came from a small shtetl called Bludova [?] in Poland also. And they met in the United States. The beginning of my mother's story is a little different than my father's story. My mother was married at the age about I would say could have been 15 or 16 to a man that lived in her shtetl. And when the- after they were married, she had a son by the name of Harry. And this man, I'll call Mr. Retarsky, [?] decided to go to the United States and then call for my mother and his son later. When he got to the United States, the First World War broke out, which deterred him from bringing my mother to join him. So in the ensuing years, what happened [is] he made a life for himself. He called for my mother sometime, I guess, around 1920, to bring her to the United States. Once she arrived here, shortly after he asked her for a divorce. Now, let's get to my father. My father must have been a rebel. His parents wanted him to be a rabbi. He ran away from home. He stowed away on a ship to the United States, and then they shipped him back when they found him. Whatever happened in Poland then is very sketchy to me -- the only thing I can remember now is that he came to the United States, he had his own life, he had a marriage, and when he met my- and I'm skipping around-- and he got involved in the apparel industry in Manhattan. And my mother, in the meantime, when she got here, was destitute and she knew how to sew. So she got a job in factories where she would sew garments and supported her son that way. And through the years -- and we're talking about a certain amount of years because I wasn't born until 1927 -- she must have been working at different factories, and my father was working at different factories, and my mother ended up working in the factory where my father was the manager. And he had lost his wife and he had four children, and I think my mother was prime to be -- wanted to be -- married, too. So they got together. SC: What was your father's name? NB: My father's name was Isadore, and my mother's name was Bertha. SC: So it was Isadore Braunstein. And your mother's maiden name? NB: Dornblott. Bertha Dornblott. But she had the name Bertha Retarsky, too. SC: Do you know your father's parents names and your mother's parents names at all? NB: No. I did have a grandfather. My father's father was living in the United States for a while ; but my father made him go back because he didn't want his mother to be alone. And so when I was a baby, I must have known them, but it's just a dream. SC: So could you talk a little bit about your schooling, you know, when you grew up, go through your life? NB: My schooling was...a maze of schools. The reason for that is when you were- when you managed apparel factories in those years, the owners would want to have someone get their factories running straight and good, and then they would no longer want the expense of having a manager. So we moved around a lot in my life. I must have gone to four or five different elementary schools in my life, and junior high schools. But I got the basic education. And as far as higher education, I went to Lafayette for two years in Easton. And I thought I could do better without the education. And I was in love, so I left that education. SC: So do you remember when you came to Allentown, when your family came to Allentown? NB: Certainly. I was 17 when I came to Allentown. My father had died a couple of months before, and my brother from my mother's side was working here for his father, who owned the factory. And my brother was kind enough to have us live with him and his mother -- you know, my mother and his family. SC: So could you talk a little bit about after that? Did you work any place before you got into the business and then I'll pass it over. NB: Well, I did some work for my brother's father -- I worked in the office, which was... SC: Yeah, that was it. You weren't a paper boy or anything like that? You didn't work before [the business] -- any casual jobs or anything? NB: I did some odd jobs. I worked at the school a little bit. SC: At your high school or at Lafayette? NB: When I went to Lafayette. SC: It's just sort of interesting to see how people maneuver through work to get to become a business owner, that's why I ask that. NB: Well from that I learned about the problems of the apparel business, when I was astute enough to pick up what was needed in the Valley, what I thought was needed, that I could do as a business. I had wanted to become a lawyer, but I gave that up. GAIL EISENBERG: And so, if you want to share with us a little bit: So you were working in the office. I'm just curious, what kinds of jobs or duties were you doing in the office? NB: Payroll. GE: Oh, you were doing the payroll. NB: Payroll was a big thing because everyone was on piece rate, and it was a difficult way-- GE: Yes, it was complicated. Yes. Okay. NB: And no computers. GE: Right. And so... you're saying you did not want to stay there as an employee, you wanted to go out on your own and start your own type of business? NB: Well, I knew that I was going to be in business. I always knew that. GE: And I'm just curious, what made you decide that? What reasons? What do you think contributed to that? NB: Well I gave up education. I felt I was good enough to make my mark in the manufacturing field. GE: And did you know you were going to be -- given you were working already in the apparels -- did you know you were going to be in the apparel business? NB: Well there was a need. Most of the people that made dresses and sportswear would have to send extra material to New York to have belts made for the garments. So I felt there was a need for someone to do that [locally] in Pennsylvania and the Northeast. There was only one other company that was in Wilkes-Barre. GE: So you recognized the need and and therefore you felt that was something that you would be able to fulfill and to satisfy and do well. NB: So I started- how did that work again? GE: About what year is that? Let's say when you started, about what year? NB: Pardon me? GE: About what year? What was the timeframe? NB: About 1951. GE: Okay, so quite early. You were just married. NB: That's right. GE: Right. Okay, and tell us a little bit about how you got started. NB: I got started this way: My father-in-law, we had a little conversation, and he offered to give me five-thousand dollars to go into business -- which in those days was a lot of money. But I didn't do well in that business. I lost it. GE: And that was trying to still do the belts? NB: Still belts. I lost it, so I had to get a job. I went to- I got myself to Wilkes-Barre, and I told them that I could bring in customers to their belt company. And I started to work for them, I worked for them for a year. In the meantime, my brother on my father's side also went out on his own and he closed that factory. So we got together, and we started another belt company. And from that -- he worked on the inside and I worked on the outside -- and we started to build a business. GE: So do you feel that between what happened, where your business went under, and then spending the year working at the belt company, then you started to really- NB: Which gave me more pointers about belts and things. GE: Right, about what would succeed, about what you would need. NB: And that was enough. GE: How about your brother? Did he have- I mean, he had general, you know, inside experience from the factory. NB: My brother was a garment cutter. That was his trade. He cut the fabric to make garments, I got that he got the fabric to make garments, but then he had a little sewing factory, which also didn't do well. GE: And with the belts, what he would need to do on the inside, he had all that- NB: He liked my idea about the belts, and we started up. Very small. GE: How many customers did you have the first couple of years? NB: Well, we had two or three customers. Kept building on it. GE: And so, want to tell us a little bit about that progression? NB: Well he and I did everything in the factory except sew, so we got a few girls that stuck with us throughout my career, actually. Got a few girls, and they came and sewed for us, and we put the belts together and gradually grew. What's the strange thing is: all the people that I thought that we would get business from locally was very difficult to get the business from them because the manufacturers in New York controlled [them], and they wanted the belts to come to New York rather than have someone making them in Pennsylvania, even though they could save money. And I had to break through that. I did that with a lot of badgering, nagging, and making a pest of myself. I was likeable. GE: Yeah, I believe that. NB: So, you know, there were times when I would talk to New York manufacturers where we say, "We give you the business, but you have to pay off." I says, "What's pay off?" He says, "I don't give my trimming manager a big salary, so if you want to make belts for me, you have to give him five percent." Hey, that's business. SC: Is that called a shakedown? NB: No, that's a kickback. I learned that very well. GE: And is that what needed to happen? NB: You don't know how many houses I built -- through kickbacks! I mean, well, where the trimming man would say to me, you know, "I need storm windows in my house" -- we would do it. If the account was big enough, we would do it. It's happening in Allentown now. That's called kickback. GE: And you want to tell us, share with us a little bit why at this time in this -- you know, especially in the 50s -- just tell us a little bit about the kinds of clothes that the women were wearing and the shirtwaists, dresses, and the belts, because many of us don't necessarily remember that. NB: I don't know how to explain that. The shirtwaists was a bonanza, started by the Villager Company -- you remember the Villager? GE: I do. NB: And everybody made shirtwaists, and shirtwaists was a bonanza for belt manufacturers. And that's what started to grow my business. Really grew it. And then what made it even bigger is men's slacks -- [men] would put belts on their slacks. Men's slacks manufacturers would be putting their own belts on slacks. So I learned to cover the men's market, too. GE: And at least in the beginning, the product- you want to just describe the product? I think you said it was the belt with the material, right? Was the material over the belt? NB: The material over the belt or you would have a webbing with leather tabs. GE: Okay, I'm trying to remember what that was like. And the shirtwaist dresses, they lasted in fashion until about what time period? I think, what, through the mid-60s? NB: Well it was-- through the 80s. GE: Really? That was the shirtwaist dress? NB: Well, the late 70s. MARILYN BRAUNSTEIN: With the sweater to match. NB: Oh yeah, that sweater dress. GE: Sweater dress. Okay. And then the men's pants, they also had similar [design]. And then I remember you telling us- tell us about some of the other types of belts that you then started [producing]. NB: Well that one, when I saturated that, there was only one other way to go: that was a retail market. Which had- which encompassed new machinery, because we were making finer belts and growing that. So it was a great adventure, actually, because-- it was exciting. GE: And quite a challenge. NB: Always a challenge. GE: Right. So just so I understand, when you were doing it more, where you were selling it to the manufacturer, in a sense it was just part of the garment, right? NB: Right. GE: Where the second time, when it's the retail, that's where you were selling it where it's an accessory that somebody bought separately. NB: Well I never used our name.It was the store name or-- GE: Or the brand name. Well especially the first time. NB: Whoever we made it for. GE: When you did retail, that was probably the store name, correct? NB: Yeah. We made a lot of belts for the Limited. For the Limited Express, for... GE: Okay. So let's see: you were in business. Tell us about -- you and your brother started, this was around 1951. And when did you see things begin to get more challenging because of, you know, the competitors going overseas? NB: The 90s, the late 90s. GE: Oh that was already that late? NB: '91, '92. GE: So it really thrived, then, through the 80s. And it was really not until the '90s that you were really being challenged. Okay, and then a little bit [of] what happened? What happened and how fast did things start going down? NB: Pretty fast. Pretty fast. In fact, when I got the idea that I should sell -- it took me two years to really make up my mind. I should have sold when I got the idea. GE: When did you finally sell? NB: '93. GE: Okay. So once it began in the '90s, it really got hurt. Nate, want to share with us some of the different manufacturers, different brands that you produced- that you manufactured for? You just said a few, but we didn't get it on tape. NB: David Crystal. I don't even remember the names anymore. GE: Evan Picone. SC: John Meyer of Norwich. NB: Well you're just repeating what I said. GE: But we didn't have it on the tape. NB: Oh, I see. GE: Once the company -- once a manufacturer -- let you break in, let you start making their belts, then did they stay with you? NB: They stayed with me. College Town -- did you ever hear of College Town? Slacks, sportswear, Panther. I used to get orders like two hundred thousand at a time. GE: How many people did you have working at the factory at its peak? NB: At the height, 200. GE: Wow. And was it mostly the operators or like- what did the work workforce consist of? NB: Well, at the beginning it was a lot of operators ; but then I didn't need as many operators. GE: Because the machinery--? NB: In order to fight what was going on in the Middle East- [I mean] in Asia, I must have spent close to a million dollars just in automatic machinery -- to make billions, but to no avail. I took a trip to Taiwan, and saw how they worked, and I knew I really had to get out because those girls were working- my girls, with their fringes, at that time were making twelve dollars an hour, and these girls were making not even twelve dollars a week. GE: So even as you were having fewer and fewer employees, it's still you could not- the labor cost was so [expensive]. NB: And you couldn't match it for another reason too: since the manufacturer was doing everything there, the Chinese were doing everything there for them -- with belts, too! GE: So even the shipping, you would have shipping and transportation costs. NB: It was a lost cause. They needed us -- our manufacturers needed us because they wanted to have somebody to make samples for them. But we were just being used for a while, 'til we realized, you know, they would throw business our way, but not the 200,000 quantity orders anymore. So, it was sad. I love that business. It was so... to me, it was like watching something grow that I built and then have it torn down. GE: At its peak, when you were making- when you were getting orders of the 200,000 things -- how many other belt producers were there in the area? Were you still the only one? NB: Only one. Because it's a specialty thing. That's why I wanted to do something different. I didn't want to make a dress like everybody else was making it. Right. Right, right. GE: You really carved out your own niche, your own specialization. NB: And I even grew bigger than the guy in Wilkes-Barre -- and they were mafia connected. GE: Did they ever give you any trouble, that when you left them and you started...? NB: [No.] GE: Okay, that's good. I remember you telling us last time about some of the challenges, the unique challenges it was, going from being where you're making for manufacturers versus now. What were the new things you had to learn and had to excel at and had to begin to do when you started going to retail? You know, how is that a new challenge? [phone interrupts interview] GE: Nate, you had started out working with manufacturing ; then, when you had to, also introduced [your belts] into the retailers. What were some of the new challenges for you? NB: New challenges were when you dealt with retailers, you didn't deal with owners -- what you dealt [with] was buyers. And if you learn about kickbacks, that's kickbacks! Well I learned how to deal with buyers, that's all. It's just simple. And every time a new buyer came in, we'd have to start from scratch all over again. GE: And I assume buyer's turnover. In other words, the owner stays, but the buyers -- it's constantly a new market. NB: My trick was, when I dealt with manufacturers, I had to deal with trimming and purchases. Well I would get into their heads, I would become friendly, they would become my family. When I came to town, and I'd listen to all their troubles, and they were my friends. So I kept a customer that I liked, but I also kept up my quality and everything. GE: So it was very much quality, right price, and relationship. And it sounds like the relationship was also very important. NB: It is. In today's world, relationships are not that great because people do business with email. Now how do you get to know somebody with an email? You don't. It's tough for people. GE: And they're also just- the businesses seem to be very, very different today when we don't have the same manufacturing that we used to have. You mentioned something that you didn't mention before -- that you were in real estate. Was that after the [business]? Did you say something about building homes or not? SC: No, that was the kickbacks. That was just a metaphor. GE: Okay. I think in terms of the business, that was a pretty good- you know, you gave us a pretty good [description]. I think we got most of the information. So do you want to share with us a little bit about your community involvement? 'Cause that was another big part of your life. NB: Well, we'll go back to Hadassah. GE: That'd be great. NB: Hadassah was my building stone, for getting above. What I feel that I could do for the Jews, myself. On Marilyn's second trip to Israel -- it was a three week trip, three weeks on a bus with Jewish women! And I became the mechanic to fix all the cameras and help them. And became friendly . . . it was a wonderful, wonderful experience. But I also found out what we as Jews owe to other Jews, especially with the loss of six million. And I became very serious about that whole thing. And I felt that if there were 10 million Jews in the United States -- or in the world, in the world at that time -- we owed for six million lost souls, and we have a responsibility. And people used to cross the street when they saw me because I was-- And anyway, I started out in working for the UJA office here as a volunteer after that trip. But I was always a little bit involved before we went with Hadassah. Whatever I did was very minimal, but what really helped also was the fact that my business was doing better, and I could be more philanthropic. Not that people that have good businesses are philanthropic, but it was just me that felt that way because of Marilyn's tutelage. And I worked on the campaign, I solicited people. And that became like a challenge for me too, like the belt business. It was- I've got to be the best, I've got to be the best at it. So in a short period of time, I became a regional chairman for UJA. And then I was asked to go on the national board, and that was such a fantastic feeling because there were probably... it must have been 14 or 15 of us that all thought the same way about the Jewish cause. And I stayed on it until the '80s. When my business was going, I couldn't maintain the gifts I was making. It's still a part of my life that was just a magnificent feeling, magnificent. There is -- and I'm not being melodramatic saying [this] -- that giving is such a high. Helping someone else is such a high. It's one of the highest things. It's better than getting. GE: In many ways, I think much better than getting. I remember last time, if you want to share with us a little bit: the influence of your father-in-law and uncle in regards to all this. NB: What story should I end it on? Your Uncle Bernie? Uncle Bernie was my father-in-law's brother. MB: Who was seven years younger. NB: He was really the philanthropic leader of the UJA. And when I started to get involved, he came and gave me a lecture and he said, "Now look, Nate, I don't want you to embarrass me." MB: What about the [inaudible]? NB: You want me to tell the story? We bought a second home. And Bernie and naturally my father-in-law, Victor, they all came to see the house, and pass judgment on it, and all that stuff. And I was the first one in the family that had a second home. So it caused a lot of rift. "How did Nate do this?" Blah blah blah and all that stuff. And one day, during the fall, I get a call from Uncle Bernie to come down to their office. I come down, and he sits me down, he says, "You know, the first thing you have to do is take care of Jews. And what you did, you went out and bought a second home before you're doing anything for the Jewish people." And he starts lecturing me, and I said, "You're out of line. You have no right to talk to me this way. Absolutely not. First of all, my father-in-law was sitting over there. If he wants to say something about what I do with my money, he can. But you can't. I'm not going to listen to what you're saying." And I said, "I will do for Jews my way and you won't be embarrassed." GE: And you always maintained a very nice relationship. NB: What? GE: He was satisfied. You and Bernie and of course your father-in-law, you always maintained a very good relationship. NB: Of course. In fact, he was very proud -- and also worried. He'd given away everything. But he's very proud. When he was old and sick, he came to live with us. First of all, Marilyn was his shining star. I can still hear him calling Marilyn, right now in my mind -- when he needed help. MB: Did you say anything about my brother? NB: No. MB: My brother died when he was 70, so. GE: When he was 70, when he was- when your brother was 70? MB: Yeah. GE: He died the day after my father-in-law. MB: Yeah. We had two caskets in the sanctuary. And a lot of people didn't know about my brother. They were coming to see my father. SC: I think Nate answered both of those questions, so that's fine. Thank you. Interview with Marilyn Braunstein, December 12th, 2015 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is December 12, 2015, the interview with Marilyn Braunstein. And I'm going to start with your background. Can you tell me as much about- first of all, your full name and your date of birth and where you were born? MARILYN BRAUNSTEIN: Okay. My name is Marilyn Kobrovsky Braunstein. I am a native Allentownian. I was born here at Sacred Heart Hospital in 1930, which makes me 85 -- 85 happy years. I'm very happy to be part of this interview that you're doing. I'm supposed to talk about my life? SC: Yes. Can you go back just a little bit and talk about your parents, your brothers and sisters -- your parents and grandparents, what their names were and where they were born? MB: My paternal grandparents name is Lazar and Lena Kobrovsky. They were born in Russia, Poland- I don't remember. I don't remember the town, but my Grandfather Lazer came to the United States by himself and left my grandmother and my father and his sister in Poland. And he came by himself. He came to Allentown because he had a landsman [Yiddish-- someone from the same town back in Poland/Russia] here. I guess that's how everybody kind of arrived here. And his landmans was Edward Schneider, who was in the . . . I guess in the junk business or peddling or something. And he lived in his house until 1902 or 3, I'm not sure. Until he brought my grandmother and my father over to this country and then they were out on their own. They had their own little house on Grant Street, which is in the sixth ward of the community. My father was just five or six, so he started school and he never really- he never spoke with an accent because he went to school as a young child. But when he was old enough to go to work, he and my grandfather went out on their horse and buggy to pick up scrap wherever -- you know, they went into the country, into Lehighton and Palmerton and all those little towns around here. And that's how he made a living until he bought a building and became much more involved in the business. The business grew, and he had all the Syrian neighbors -- they were all Christian Syrians -- and they also were what we called junkmen. And they used to bring all their stuff to my grandfather. And there were three brothers in the family. My father was Victor, and Bernie, and Sam. And then there were seven girls, so there were nine siblings all together. So what fun it was to go to my grandmother's house every Sunday and be with this family. My grandmother made her tuna fish -- tuna fish! I don't know how this Russian-Polish lady learned to make tuna fish salad but that's what she made. And my aunts, you want all my aunts names? I don't wanna do it. But there were seven, seven and three -- no, six and three. Nine, nine children. Okay, that was my paternal [family]. My maternal grandparents were Chaim and Sarah Greenberg. My grandmother's maiden name was Epstein. And they were born in Poland, too. I don't know how they got to London- I mean England, or why they went to England. They met in England. They got married and they had five children in England, my mother being the youngest at that time. She was a few months old. They came to this country, then, in 1902. My grandfather was a schneider [Yiddish for tailor], he was a tailor. So he- they came to Allentown because my grandmother's sister -- sister's husband was the rabbi in Allentown. So that's why they came to Allentown. There are ten siblings in my mother's family. My mother is Anna, my grandmother was Sarah -- I told you that -- and my grandfather was Chaim. And he had a tailor shop in the front of the house where they lived on Second Street between Turner and Linden. In there. And the front of the house, the living room, was his shop. And that's what he did. He was a tailor. And they lived, I don't know for how many years they lived there, but I know my mother worked -- went to work, I think she was a teenager. I don't remember exactly how it all occurred, but she worked at the Grammes Company. I don't know if it's still in business in Allentown. She worked an addressograph. Anyway, my father and mother were married in 1924, by Rabbi Krevsky, who was the rabbi in Allentown. It used to be called the Sixth Street Shul, [Yiddish for synagogue] because that's where the synagogue was for the congregation, the Sons of Israel, which is now on Twenty-seventh and Tilghman. My grandfather, my father's father, was very involved with Agudas Achim, which was Orthodox synagogue, and he would live within walking distance of the shul. So he was there every day and that was where he belonged to. My other grandfather belonged to a shul five doors away, called-- It will come to me. But anyway, they used to call it the Bolsheviki-y shul. My grandfather must have been a Bolsheviki, I don't know. Everyone looked down on that shul. So we used to go from one shul to the other, and everybody used to hang out in front of the shul. And there was always arguments for who was going to-- What is it at the end, where they- where you buy the right to--? I forget. So there was always a fight: Who was going to buy the right to say, I don't remember which it was. Anyway, sometimes cops had to come to break it up, it got so violent. They don't do those things anymore. They were a real bunch. And on that street was also two Kosher butchers and a Kosher store to buy fish and things. So it was a little community service there, for the Jewish community. It was a very nice, pleasant place to be. Yeah. And anyway, that's it. SC: Can you talk a little bit about where you were born and, you know, your- well you talked about your birthday, but your early life -- what you remember, where you went to school, and how eventually how you met Nate. MB: For some reason, all the Jews in Allentown lived on South 16th Street. That was where everybody moved. My father, being different, moved us to 22nd in Allen -- there were no Jews. None. Okay, so I went to this elementary school -- Muhlenberg, which is still in existence -- and there were maybe five Jewish kids in the school. They were not so wonderful to me. They didn't include me in things. And I never thought of it, anything of it. Just like when they picked guards for crossing the street, everybody got the job except me. It was kind of- that was my first experience with anti-Semitism. Anyway, I didn't have really any Jewish friends until junior high school. I did go to the Jewish Community Center -- Daycare Center. I loved it, loved it, because my people were there and I felt included. That was- that's a nice camp and it still exists. It was wonderful. And I spent a lot of time at the JCC every Sunday where everybody used to come in and take a trolley downtown. And we had a jukebox there and we all danced. We danced the jitterbug, I guess that's what that was in the 1940s. So that was- it was a lot of fun. And we formed the Young Judaea Club for the girls. So we used to come down one night a week and meet Young Judea and we picked a certain night because the Boy Scouts met that night, so we had everything figured out. Anyway, those were my junior high school years. Then we went to Allen High, which was a fantastic school in those days. Everybody who was living outside the city limits wanted to go to Allentown High. Through the years, the school deteriorated to not such a great place, but in those years it was wonderful. Morty Sher was one of our teachers. He was very involved with the Jewish community and the Center. He was a- was he an English teacher? I don't quite remember. I met Nate when I was a senior in high school. He had just- or was I a junior? I don't remember. He was from New Bedford, Massachusetts. He came to Allentown when he was a senior, and he came here because when living in New Bedford, his father suddenly passed away. So he and his mother came to Allentown because Nate had a brother living here who had a business. He made dresses like many people did here. So anyway, I met Nate at the Superior Restaurant, and it was right before my sweet sixteen party. So of course I invited him to my sweet sixteen party, and I never went out with anybody else after that. My father was not happy about that, but he thought I was too young. Nate was nineteen, I was sixteen. He said, "He's too old for you!" So nobody listened to my father. He thought we did. And when Nate graduated, he went to Lafayette College for two years. I decided that -- and my father was in full agreement, which he shouldn't have been -- and since I was so in love with this guy, why should I go to college? So I didn't. I went to a business school in Bethlehem, and I went there for two years, so that's what I did. I went to be a secretary. So anyway, Nate and I got married on August 6th, 1950. He was working for his brother and we moved to Tremont Apartments. Everybody, all the young couples, everybody moved [there] when they got married. It was really a nice place. I don't know if there were any Jewish people living there today, but it was filled with young Jewish couples -- and then, maybe two years later, with the baby carriages. Anyway, after- we had Cherie, after when I had Laurie, we moved into a house on 23rd and Washington up the street from the Center. It was in the- Was the Center built then? I don't think... No, the center was not built then. The center was built in 1957. But anyway, it was a wonderful place to live because all you had to do was like roll down the hill and you were there. So our lives were wrapped around the Center. Then I tell you -- through the years, I was active. I think the first organization that I got involved with was the Auxiliary of the Jewish Community Center, because I always loved the Center. And then some of my friends -- we had joined Hadassah too, which I belonged to -- and then I became very active in Hadassah. Hadassah taught me to be a Jew. They taught me how to be as philanthropic as I could, because they always had quotas that we had to make, to send money to National. That was very important. And we always had National women come in and speak to us, and they really got us very enthused. And Mrs. Leonard, who was the founder of Hadassah -- Allentown Hadassah-- Do you want me to stop? [interview is interrupted] SC: Well, maybe we should just move to- Well your work at Hadassah and then I'll ask you, what made you feel the most creative and what you valued most in life. Most creative and Hadassah is what you said last time, so maybe just move through what you did in Hadassah and I'll ask you the other one. MB: Anyway, where was I? I was very involved with Hadassah. I did a lot of things -- I collected blue boxes, I went door to door day to get puskas [Yiddish--charity box used to collect doinations] and everyone was very pleasant, and that was one of the jobs, one of the important jobs . . . try to find somebody to do that today. So I stayed with Hadassah, I got on the board, and did many, many jobs. It was like stepping up and training me to be- I never expected to be asked to be president. And my best friend said, when they had the nomination committee meeting, that I wouldn't take it if they asked me, they were sure I would say no. So... I said yes. And that was 1970, it's a two year term, to 1972. That was my year, the year that I made my first trip to Israel. They were dedicating or rededicating the building on Mount Scopus. That was in no man's land during the war. The Arabs were here, the Israelis were here. This was- this territory in between belonged to no one.But they tried to use the hospital and they had patients there and doctors used to come in, convoys up Mount Scopus to take care of the patients. But, I don't know what year it was, but they were- when Israel declared themselves a state, the Arabs murdered everyone in that convoy, all these doctors and patients, as they were going up to Mount Scopus. And the English did nothing, they just stood by and watched. Anyway, they knew they had to build another hospital within the boundaries of Jewish Palestine. In the meantime, their work was done in another hospital and I don't remember. But anyway, the new hospital was built in Ein Kerem, which is in Western Jerusalem. There was no contest about building a hospital there. I don't remember when it was finished, but I know I went a couple of years later, and I remember Muriel and Phil Berman putting the mezuzah on the door. They were extremely active and they- one of the nursing hospitals was one that they gave the money for. They were wonderful. And Muriel used to come back from all these trips and we had Board meetings and tell us what happened. Was really so thrilling to hear it from the first person like that. And I said to her, then, "Muriel, I want to be able to do that someday." That didn't happen, but we were very happy to be big contributors to Hadassah. Nate loved it. I took him, I dragged him along on my second trip with George and Mina Finkelstein. And George's suitcase never came. George must have been [unclear], and he was wearing [Nate's] clothes until his luggage came. Kind of funny. Anyway, they were wonderful to be with because they had lived in Jerusalem for many years. In fact, Arnon says that he's a Palestinian. He was born there. Anyway, we- Nate became so involved with the philanthropics of Hadassah, that he got caught up in it and he became involved with -- what was it called? It was called UJA, it was not called Federation -- United Jewish Appeal. So he started as a solicitor, I think, and worked his way up into the Presidency and Chairman of the Campaign. And we used to go to the big meetings in New York where everybody came to announce their pledges. So we used to go there and they would stand up and announce his pledge. And a lot of times I -- I'm falling through the table! Anyway, that was his love and there was nothing I could do to tell him that you're doing too much. He never felt he gave enough. So he loved it, and he felt he made a lot of Jews that weren't Jews before. And one of his jobs being on the National Board was to travel with-- NATHAN BRAUNSTEIN: You're telling my story. MB: Are you supposed to tell your story? GAIL EISENBERG: Yes, we'll let him tell his story. SC: You know, the last time we asked what made you feel the most creative and what you valued so much, you talked about what Hadassah meant to you. Can you talk a little bit about that? MB: Hadassah meant everything to me. My best friends were also involved with Hadassah and we worked together on projects. We used to sit and cut out invitations, we cooked in the kitchen. It was very close to my heart, and I loved being able to contribute to Hadassah. GE: You know what, may I bring the picture- you have a picture of the women presidents. I'm going to bring it, okay? Because that was also- you just shared with us a little bit, who these different presidents were. MB: I have a picture of all the presidents up to one that came after me. Mrs. Leonard was the founder, and her house is now the President's House of Muhlenberg. Beautiful house. I was never in it- yes I was, I was. She used to cook Hungarian meals for us. She was an elegant lady. SC: So it was on Leh Street, it was the Leh Street house? MB: This is Mrs. Leonard. GE: This is Marilyn, next to the top. SC: So if you want to talk about some of the other women, that's fine. GE: I remember you talking about it a little bit, about your experiences with Joyce Kitey MB: Mina was dynamic. Mina, and of course, Muriel Berman. She was great. And Nettie Klass lived across the street from the Center. It's a good thing she did because one night she saw flames coming out of the building. Yeah, somebody set fire to it. I don't know. The office was destroyed and the lobby. I don't know how long it took to fix it. I don't know if they ever caught the people who did it. But thank God, Nettie lived across the street! And we used to spend a lot of time with Netty, because she knew everything about Hadassah -- who was coming, who was going, who was moving. So we used to laugh, and we used to say, "Somebody's sitting under this table and listening to all of this." We used to gossip . . . terrible. But we had fun with Nettie, Netty was wonderful. And Edie was- she brought youth to Hadassah. NB: The Board. To the Board. MB: Oh, she's the one who brought me to the board, is that what you said? I don't know. But it was Edie and then it was Rhoda and Joyce, who moved here. Joyce was from Philadelphia. NB: Joyce was a younger woman. She was the first of the younger women, Edie. MB: And Joyce was from Philadelphia. She went to school with Wilt the Stilt. He was in her class. She's very, very bright. Anyway, her husband was a lawyer. After he graduated law school, they moved to Orlando, Florida, but didn't stay too long. And luckily they came to Allentown. She was a delight, really energetic. She brought all kinds of ideas to us, we were doing all kinds of stuff, everything was so original. Every dance, every dance we had was very special. She just made us work. We worked a lot. And her poor husband, Harry, if we had a board meeting at her house and it was snow on the pavement, she called him up at his office and said, "Harry, you come home, you gotta shovel the snow." Harry was so good. Anyway, they moved to New York, and by that time, Harry had had cancer, prostate cancer. And we lost him, so Joyce lived alone in New York and was very involved with Hadassah. She would have been, I'm sure, national president if she didn't have to work. She moved -- she sold the condo on 57th Street near Bloomingdale's and moved to Florida. That's where Joyce is today. And Joyce is so beautiful and so smart. We thought in five years she's going to be married. She's still single -- she's in her late 70s already. So I guess she's not going to get [married]. But anyway, she still loves Hadassah. SC: So what do you value most in life? What have you valued in life? MB: Learning how to give. Which it wasn't really [Hadassah] -- that was my husband. He taught me how to give. I always thought I taught him. But as it worked out... Anyway, after Hadassah, all my friends got involved with other things. I became active with UJA. And then I was Campaign Chairman and President of Hadassah. We would go out to different chapters in the area and speak. We were very famous. Allentown, everybody, I think, was envious of us. NB: They were like the posse, going out, spreading Judaism. MB: It was nice being involved with Hadassah because it was something I could share with Nate. NB: Can I interject something? SC: Sure. NB: Hadassah became weak because the younger women started to have careers, to not- were not the stay-at-home moms that Hadassah grew with. That's what kept Hadassah strong in communities. But with the growing need, the need of two incomes in families, with women that had careers of their own, Hadassah itself became weak. It's still the biggest organization, women's organization, but it became weak because of that. SC: It's the story of the United States, too. Things have changed, where women . . . NB: There's a dichotomy to this: Hadassah and Allentown is very, very weak. But the Women's Jewish Federation division is stronger than the men's division. And that's where the impetus of giving and where it's smart to belong has grown, and I can live in it. SC: And is the Federation men and women? NB: The men are set up to take -- a backwards step. I mean, I was very involved here in Allentown. Anyway finish with Marilyn, I shouldn't be doing this now. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:20:22
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Nathan and Marilyn Braunstein, December 12, 2015
Description
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Nate Braunstein talks about first failing then succeeding in operating a belt factory with his brother. The business (Atlantic Apparel) began in the 1950s when women’s fashion commonly included shirt-waist dresses with a matching belt (same fabric) and some men’s pants had that, too. Nate’s factory made the belts. They were a component of the dress. As fashion changed, and there was little demand for fabric belts, Atlantic Apparel had to pivot to thinking about belts as an accessory item and selling to retailers rather than as a component of the dress or pants and selling to the manufacturers.
Marilyn Braunstein talks about her idyllic life growing up in Allentown and visiting both sets of grandparents and playing with her many cousins. One of Marilyn’s proudest affiliations is with Hadassah. Marilyn was a member, officer, and eventually president of Lehigh Valley Hadassah Organization. At the time of Marilyn’s presidency, Hadassah had a strong presence in the Lehigh Valley.
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LVTNT-30
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2015-12-12
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Title
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
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Murray Platt
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-17.xml
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5.4 July 26, 2012 Murray Platt, July 26, 2012 LVTNT-17 55:10 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Murray Platt Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 PlattMurray_20120726 1.0:|23(7)|48(4)|81(2)|116(11)|143(11)|170(3)|193(7)|222(6)|251(5)|272(8)|301(4)|326(5)|345(10)|372(8)|397(2)|418(13)|443(14)|474(3)|495(13)|514(11)|535(8)|558(4)|579(5)|604(7)|627(16)|654(15)|677(12)|700(10)|727(9)|748(8)|775(6)|800(5)|813(15)|838(6)|859(7)|882(18)|901(5)|926(19)|957(5)|982(5)|1005(5)|1030(5)|1063(6)|1104(5)|1133(7)|1158(4)|1189(4)|1214(4)|1239(15)|1264(11)|1279(10)|1302(3)|1325(9)|1348(6)|1375(9)|1376(2) 0 https://youtu.be/OcDadcjftl4 YouTube video 0 Introduction—Murray Platt SC: Mr. Platt, would you tell your full name, birthday and where you were born?
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 ; MP: Murray Platt, born in Brooklyn, New York, 1925.
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 ; SC: What was the address in Brooklyn? Do you remember?
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 ; MP: I know we moved pretty often. In those days, rents were very cheap, but most people had no money. They’d give you like three months free rent. What happens is that you lived in a place for a couple months, the first months were free. Then in a couple months you had to pay the rent and until they came to kick you out, you found another place. 0 54 Family History SC: Can you talk a little big now about your family background? As far back as you know - your parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and what their names were and where they lived?
 ; 
 ; MP: Only my maternal grandfather, his name was Isadore Platt. He came here as a young man. I never knew anything about great grandparents.
 ; 
 ; GE: Wait, your maternal grandfather?
 ; 
 ; MP: My mother’s father.
 ; 
 ; GE: His name wouldn’t have been Platt.
 ; 
 ; MP: It’s always confusing because my mother remarried. My biological father died when I was real young. My mother remarried an Isadore Platt, not my grandfather, but cousin with the same name and I assumed his name. My birth name was not Platt.
 ; 
 ; SC: What was it?
 ; 
 ; MP: Tuller. T-u-l-l-e-r. 0 394 Lehigh Valley Shirt Manufacturing SC: [Y]our step-father, what did he do? 
 ; 
 ; MP: He was part of the business.
 ; 
 ; GE: What did he do?
 ; 
 ; MP: He was in the apparel business.
 ; 
 ; SC: So that was in Brooklyn?
 ; 
 ; MP: They started in New York. It was he and two partners.
 ; 
 ; GE: And what were they doing there? Were they tailors?
 ; 
 ; MP: They had a factory. And then the union came along and they were chased out over here. 
 ; 
 ; SC: That’s a typical story.
 ; 
 ; MP: After years here, the union came here. Local businesses went out and most went down south.
 ; 
 ; SC: What part of the garment industry did they produce for?
 ; 
 ; MP: The name of the firm was Lehigh Valley Shirt Manufacturing Company. 0 837 Religious Practices as a Youth GE: When your mother and stepfather married in 1936, from what you remember, was he working here and coming home on the weekends?
 ; 
 ; MP: Yes. As a matter of fact I remember going to the subway station and helping him carry his bags. He made me do the Haftorah every Saturday morning. I could do any Haftarah.
 ; 
 ; GE: He made you do the Haftarah.
 ; 
 ; MP: He was very religious and we followed suit.
 ; 
 ; SC: Were you as religious before that?
 ; 
 ; MP: Not really. I was Bar Mitzvahed after he married my mother. As a matter of fact, I laid Tifillin until I went into the army. 0 897 The War Years—Education, Work Experiences, & ; Army Service SC: What year did you go into the army?
 ; 
 ; MP: 1945.
 ; 
 ; GE: You went into the army in 1945?
 ; 
 ; SC: So you would have been 20.
 ; 
 ; MP: During the second half of the war and then afterwards, in peacetime.
 ; 
 ; SC: Where were you deployed after you went into the army? Were you in Germany?
 ; 
 ; MP: No, stateside.
 ; 
 ; SC: Stateside the whole time. I know some people did go over and went to Japan or after the war went to Germany during the times of refugees.
 ; 
 ; MP: I had majored in chemistry when I went to City College and I kept getting deferred from being drafted until I graduated. Once I graduated, then they inducted me into the army. After basic training they sent me to Randolph Field in Texas to work in a laboratory. So I never saw real action. 0 1118 Murray Platt's Parents GE: Do you have any memory of your father?
 ; 
 ; MP No, I was five when he died.
 ; 
 ; GE: What did he die from?
 ; 
 ; MP: He was a house painter. No one really remembers if it was his heart or was it lead poisoning. In those days they used lead. I remember an uncle was also a house painter, it was one of his brothers, telling him, “Abie, wash your hands!” My father’s name was Abraham. He never washed his hands, most of them didn’t. He didn’t die here…..he went to Poland – to Warsaw – to see his parents, and he died there. 0 1281 Childhood in Brooklyn GE: During this time when it was you and your mom, I know the Depression was going on, what was life like? Were you very poor?
 ; 
 ; MP: If we were poor, we didn’t know it - we had nothing to compare it to.
 ; 
 ; GE: Did you rent? Did you live in an apartment?
 ; 
 ; MP: Oh yes, $45.00 a month rent and the first two months were free!
 ; 
 ; SC: Do you have any memories of what you did in New York playing games? What the children did?
 ; 
 ; MP: I remember playing handball against the wall with some other kids. There was a store right around the corner and the wall was brick – we played handball there. The guy would come out and yell at us. Years later, we bought a home in Brooklyn, this was before we came here, an end of the row. Then the other kids came and played handball against our wall. 0 1410 Stepfather's Family and Businesses GE: Murray, you were an only child weren’t you?
 ; 
 ; MP: My stepfather had a daughter, Phyllis Steinberg. Does the name ring a bell?
 ; 
 ; GE: Well, Judge Steinberg?
 ; 
 ; MP: That’s her son.
 ; 
 ; GE: So his mother was your step-sister.
 ; 
 ; MP: Well, I didn’t refer to her as a step-sister, we were very close.
 ; 
 ; GE: Isn’t that nice. When your mother married Platt, you were 11, how old was she?
 ; 
 ; MP: She was ten years older than me.
 ; 
 ; GE: Was she already married?
 ; 
 ; MP: She got married the same year. She got married in July, my mother got married to my step-father in November.
 ; 
 ; GE: So you always had a close relationship with her. 0 1626 Murray Platt's Role in the Family Business SC: Going back then to when you were part of the business, what did you do when you first became part of your step-father’s business? 
 ; 
 ; MP: Our partners, while my father was the general factory man, one of the other partners was a mechanic and the third partner took care of the cutting and went to New York to collect money for payroll. In those days you had to wait for it to come by mail. [unintelligible] It was a pretty big payroll, don’t forget there was pretty many people working. When we came into the business, I took over my father’s job of being on the floor, as they say, in production. The mechanic’s son took over the mechanics and the other son took over the cutting – he was in charge of the cutting room. 0 1737 Jewish Involvement in the Textile and Needle-Trade Industries GE: Was it hard, as a Jewish person, to get a job as a chemist?
 ; 
 ; MP: Yes. As a chemist, in a bank . . . a lot of places. The going salary was $35.00 per week. 
 ; 
 ; GE: There were a few things - One, it was hard to get a good job as a Jewish person and secondly, it was not that lucrative. It was perhaps more lucrative to go into business.
 ; 
 ; SC: We’ve asked people, “ Why do you think in this region, there was so many Jewish textile or garment industry people.” Do you think there is an answer to that?
 ; 
 ; MP: No, except that the Jews gravitated towards this business. It was easy to get into. It didn’t require much capital so you didn’t have to go borrow money. You set up your own factory and in those days there was a big demand. 0 1804 Murray Platt's Business Partners and Contacts GE: Who actually was the salesperson or the liaison person with the manufacturers? 
 ; 
 ; MP: Samuel Simon. He was the one who would go to New York every week to collect money for payroll.
 ; 
 ; GE: That’s also the guy you said was the cutting.
 ; 
 ; MP: Right. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Was he, let’s say for instance, was he also the one when a contract would run out – he was the one who would negotiate the contract?
 ; 
 ; MP: We didn’t have any formal contracts – nothing was in writing. You just did the work for them and you hoped they would send you more fabric and it was an on-going deal. 0 2071 The Decline of Lehigh Valley Shirts Manufacturing Company MP: I retired in 1987. I turned the business over to a young man who had been working for me.
 ; 
 ; SC: So you gave him an opportunity?
 ; 
 ; MP: He was the son of the foreman when the factory came to Allentown.
 ; 
 ; SC: What was his name – the foreman?
 ; 
 ; MP: Sam Lutz. He wasn’t Jewish.
 ; 
 ; SC: He was Pennsylvania Dutch probably.
 ; 
 ; GE: Did the business survive for a while longer?
 ; 
 ; MP: For a while, but this guy didn’t pay much attention to the business. People, customers, would call, they’d want you, they didn’t want an office person and he wasn’t there. So he lasted a few years, every week it was less and then he just left. 0 2166 More on the Family Business SC: Did the ethnicity of the workers change between the late ‘40’s until 1987? Did they come from different family backgrounds?
 ; 
 ; MP: Towards the end we had more Latino people - as they came along - moving into town.
 ; 
 ; SC: Because this was a good entry work job.
 ; 
 ; MP: At the beginning, it was always Pennsylvania Dutch, Czechoslovokian people, Irish people, but the last few years things were changed.
 ; 
 ; SC: As far as where the factory was…did it stay on Franklin Street the whole time?
 ; 
 ; MP: Yes.
 ; 
 ; SC: Franklin is between 14th and 15th?
 ; 
 ; GE: No, 13th and 14th.
 ; 
 ; MP: No, it was between 14th and 15th. 0 2403 Involvement in the Jewish and Allentown Communities GE: Tell us what was the community like? What did you and Dot think when you came here? The Jewish community . . . and when did you start having children?
 ; 
 ; MP: We went to the JCC as soon as we got here. In those days it was still at 6th Street.
 ; 
 ; GE: 6th and Chew I think it was.
 ; 
 ; MP: This building wasn’t built until 1958 or 59.
 ; 
 ; SC: How about the community in general? What did you think about the community? Was it friendly?
 ; 
 ; MP: Hess’s was great. That was a focal point. 
 ; 
 ; SC: I haven’t interviewed anyone that hasn't talked about it.
 ; 
 ; MP: You mention Allentown and Hess’s and people say, “oh yes, I know Hess’s”
 ; 
 ; GE: And the whole downtown was great.
 ; 
 ; MP: There was no Sunday shopping, and it was only open Monday and Thursday evenings. My wife, when she was pregnant, a month or so afterwards she went there and they said, “what did you have, a boy or a girl?” They was a very homey atmosphere. 0 2527 Murray Platt's Children GE: When did you start having children?
 ; 
 ; MP: Our oldest daughter was born in New York and Dennis, the middle son was born here – right after we moved here.
 ; 
 ; GE: So your oldest child was born in what year?
 ; 
 ; MP: 1949.
 ; 
 ; GE: So your oldest is about 62-63 years old.
 ; 
 ; MP: Right.
 ; 
 ; GE: And then your second child?
 ; 
 ; MP: Dennis – he was born here.
 ; 
 ; GE: That was nineteen . . .?
 ; 
 ; MP: 54.
 ; 
 ; GE: 1954. The first two, those were boys?
 ; 
 ; MP: No, the first one was a girl.
 ; 
 ; GE: What was her name?
 ; 
 ; MP: Arlene, and she never married. 0 2715 Relationship with Buyers SC: [A]s far as the business is concerned, are there any memories you have – really vivid memories you have of some times in the business – either highs or lows when you were in the business?
 ; 
 ; MP: Except that we took the various customer’s agents out to lunch.
 ; 
 ; GE: Oh, so the customer’s agents – did they often come to your . . .?
 ; 
 ; MP: Yeah, they come once or twice a week.
 ; 
 ; GE: Was that more just to pick up and drop off?
 ; 
 ; MP: Just to see how things were going - how their products were being manufactured. To make sure everything is right and to go to lunch.
 ; 
 ; GE: The manufacturer’s agent – were they employees of the manufacturer?
 ; 
 ; MP: Yes.
 ; 
 ; GE: Oh, they were actually employees. I wasn’t sure if they were employees or if they kind of had their own business. 0 2776 Unions SC: Were you unionized?
 ; 
 ; MP: Yes.
 ; 
 ; SC: Which union?
 ; 
 ; MP: Amalgamated Textile Workers. There were two apparel unions - one was the International Ladies Garment Workers and the other was Amalgamated. Since we had made men’s wear to start with, it was Amalgamated. Then in later years, we didn’t make any more shirts, but the other union didn’t bother us.
 ; 
 ; SC: Were you a member of the manufacturer’s associations?
 ; 
 ; MP: Probably.
 ; 
 ; GE: Like Arnold Delin? Does that sound familiar?
 ; 
 ; MP: Delin was the other union.
 ; 
 ; SC: Right he was the IGLU – I hope I said it right. There were two manufacturer’s associations in the region. 0 2847 Business Procedures and Products GE: Did you ever become very automated?
 ; 
 ; MP: No.
 ; 
 ; GE: So yours always stayed pretty basic.
 ; 
 ; MP: Right. Tama did and that’s why they lasted longer than everyone else. They just closed two or three years ago. Now I understand all the off-shore plants are automated. [unintelligible] with computers.
 ; 
 ; GE: Right - I guess that’s really primarily in terms of the business. You said that your product changed - let’s say you did shirts and blouses, is that what you did the whole time?
 ; 
 ; MP: Yes.
 ; 
 ; SC: Is there a reason why you stopped doing shirts?
 ; 
 ; MP: Well, because it became too competitive. Shirts were the first ones to go down south. Blouses, it was more specialty, dresses also the same thing. 0 3099 Dottie Platt's Family History DP: When you are an immigrant, you come here with empty pockets and your children – they don’t have anything. You have to realize this, now come in, and I’ll show you my blouses. Then I married Murray because he graduated college at 19, and I thought he was older than that, and he thought I was younger than I am because my mother was looking for the fountain of youth. She lost her hair at as a young girl. There’s a name for this illness.
 ; 
 ; MP: Alopecia. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Oh.
 ; 
 ; DP: Some people in our area, now, the doctor’s wife, I want to say, don't have hair. Do you know Dr. Silverman?
 ; 
 ; MP: Diane.
 ; 
 ; GE: Oh yes. 
 ; 
 ; DP: So, my mother had that illness.
 ; 
 ; MP: To make a long story short, my wife worked in the factory – in the office for several years. 0 MovingImage Murray Platt talks about how his father’s family began in New York making women’s shirts, failed due to the unions, and then came in the late 1930s to the Lehigh Valley. Murray’s father, with two partners, established Lehigh Valley Shirt Manufacturing Company. They were contractors for manufacturers in New York and in Philadelphia. They cut, sewed and finished the products. The business continued by the sons of these three original partners. An Interview with Murray Platt, July 26, 2012 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Mr. Platt, would you tell your full name, birthday and where you were born? MURRAY PLATT: Murray Platt, born in Brooklyn, New York, 1925. SC: What was the address in Brooklyn? Do you remember? MP: I know we moved pretty often. In those days, rents were very cheap, but most people had no money. They'd give you like three months free rent. What happens is that you lived in a place for a couple months, the first months were free. Then in a couple months you had to pay the rent and until they came to kick you out, you found another place. SC: Can you talk a little big now about your family background? As far back as you know - your parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and what their names were and where they lived? MP: Only my maternal grandfather, his name was Isadore Platt. He came here as a young man. I never knew anything about great grandparents. GAIL EISENBERG: Wait, your maternal grandfather? MP: My mother's father. GE: His name wouldn't have been Platt. MP: It's always confusing because my mother remarried. My biological father died when I was real young. My mother remarried an Isadore Platt, not my grandfather, but cousin with the same name and I assumed his name. My birth name was not Platt. SC: What was it? MP: Tuller. T-u-l-l-e-r. SC: So, when your maternal grandfather came to the United States, where about did he come from? Do you know about when he came? MP: Poland or Russia. In those days there was a very fluid line between them. One day I was Polish the next day I was Russian. GE: What was the name of the town or big city it was near? MP: Somewhere near Warsaw. SC: Did your father come by himself? And did he leave family behind? MP: My grandfather, he came by himself. He left his wife there, after a while she died. He remarried here. Then he had his children, which my mother was one of them. By then he had a coal yard. GE: I'm sorry he had what? MP: He had a coal yard. GE: In Poland? MP: No here. GE: What is a coal yard? MP: In the old days, most of heat was done by coal. As a matter of fact, I remember the coal delivery in New York, he had to park perpendicular to the sidewalk of the house and run a big chute down to the basement, dumped the coal out. We kids had a great time underneath the chute! GE: When your grandfather came from Poland, how old was he? MP: Pretty young. GE: But, he was already married. MP: Maybe in his 20's. GE: So, the hope was, he came from Poland, how many children did he have at the time? MP: Three. GE: He had three children in Poland. MP: My mother and 2 brothers. GE: The idea was that he came and then he was going to bring his wife and children. MP: I don't know about his wife, she died somewhere in between. GE: Right. MP: We never even saw a picture of her. In those days there was no hanky-panky. A wife was a wife. GE: Right. SC: So he came to the United States. This is your birth grandfather. When he came here how did he meet his second wife? Do you know anything about that? MP: Not really, I guess he went to a bar or something! SC: So he owned a coal yard and that was a fun place to be. MP: It was a small community, everybody lived downtown. GE: When you say downtown, do you mean downtown Brooklyn? MP: Mostly Manhattan -- the Lower East Side. SC: So with the coal yard were there ever any stories of people coming to the coal yard and taking coal to heat their places, at night or anything? MP: Not that I know of. GE: Did he work at the coal yard or did he own the coal yard? MP: I think he owned it. GE: Or at least eventually. So he left behind his wife and three children, the wife died, did he bring all his three children over? MP: They all came together. I guess it was right after the First World War. SC: So he came before the First World War. That would make sense. And then you were born in 1925. GE: Do you know how old your mother was when she came over? MP: She was around 18-19 or somewhere around there. GE: So she was already that grown up. What was she? Was she the oldest? The middle? Youngest? MP: She was in the middle. There was one older brother and one younger brother. Matter of fact, there is a picture of my mother you might like to take a look at. GE: Yes, I did, I already saw it. She's gorgeous. SC: I'll take a look at it later. GE: So there were two sons. SC: So is Dottie, so is Dottie. Your father's family, do you know anything about your father's family, the Platts, uh Tullers-- your birth father? MP: I know there was a brother, my late father's brother. Matter of fact, he died in his 90's. He lived in Washington DC. Then there was another brother, somehow we lost track of him. We were never close to any of that side of the family. SC: So your -sort of- adopted father, your step-father, what did he do? MP: He was part of the business. GE: What did he do? MP: He was in the apparel business. SC: So that was in Brooklyn? MP: They started in New York. It was he and two partners. GE: And what were they doing there? Were they tailors? MP: They had a factory. And then the union came along and they were chased out over here. SC: That's a typical story. MP: After years here, the union came here. Local businesses went out and most went down south. SC: What part of the garment industry did they produce for? MP: The name of the firm was Lehigh Valley Shirt Manufacturing Company. GE: How about in New York? MP: I'm not sure. GE: But it was shirts? MP: Probably. GE: But you're not sure. SC: So they came in the 1930's to the Lehigh Valley. Do you know about what year it was? MP: Not sure. Before or during the war, because they all made garments for the troops. GE: They were definitely here sometime in the 30's . . . MP: late 30's, early 40's. GE: And who came here? Was it your step-father came here? MP: Yes GE: So he actually who established the business? MP: Yes, and two partners. SC: Do you know the partners' names? MP: Yes, Samuel Barkan and Samuel Simon. Do you know Marian Barkan? GE: I don't recognize the name. SC: Is she still in the area? Well, that's another contact. So, they made shirts -- how big an industry was it in the early years? MP: I thought our plant was one of the middle size. We had about 80 or 90 employees. SC: And, where was it located in Allentown? MP: Right on Union Street. SC: Did it stay there when you were involved with it? MP: Yes, and then the city bought that plot and now its low income housing development. The 400 block of Union Street. SC: They bought it after the business closed? MP: No, then they moved to North Franklin Street. GE: And North Franklin is where? MP: Between 13th and 14th Streets. SC: When it was at Union, did they buy that property? MP: They bought the building before we came. Every partner had a son and it was worked out that the three sons would belong to the business. SC: When the city bought that property. Was that during the Little Lehigh Urban Renewal? MP: Probably. GE: Or when did that occur? MP: The early 70's. SC: A lot of my projects intersect. When you moved to Franklin Street, did all three of you (sons) come into the business? MP: We went into the business when it was still on Union St. SC: So you bought a new place-- MP: We didn't buy it, we rented it. SC: And you continued to make shirts? MP: Shirts, blouses, dresses-- SC: Were you a contractor for a New York company? MP: Mostly, although we had some Philadelphia stuff. Did you ever hear of Gordon in Philadelphia. J.G. Hook? GE: J.G. Hook, right. SC: Was J.G. Hook women's blouses? MP: Womens of all kinds. We just made the blouses. SC: Gordon, was that blouses or shirts? MP: Again, we made only the blouses. SC: Only the blouses for both of them. Can you talk a little bit about how the business was organized in your step-father's time and in your time? What is very highly capitalized? Did you have a lot of machinery? What type of people did you hire? MP: The sewing industry was the easiest one to get into. You didn't require a lot of capital and I don't know anything about the place in New York. When we came here, the building had three floors. There was sewing on one floor, cutting on another floor and the bottom floor was pressing, shipping and so on. GE: So the finishing. It was sewing, cutting and finishing. SC: What groups of employees did you have over the years? Were they wives of maybe people working in other industries? Were they working class? Was there a certain ethnicity? MP: All manufacturers were women. We always had a mechanic there in the cutting room. As a matter of fact, Irwin Salitsky worked with us - because his business went out too. [unintelligible] GE: Yes. So you were a young child when they came here? MP: No, we were all in our twenties when we went into the business. GE: In other words, if you were born in 1925 when your father came here, he established himself here, about how old do you think you were? MP: Well, I didn't know him until he married my mother. GE: When did he marry your mother? MP: In 1936. GE: Therefore, you were about 11 years ago when he married your mother? MP: Right. GE: At that time was he already here? Or was he still in New York when they got married? MP: I think they just come here. GE: So did you move at that time to Allentown? MP: No, No. My wife and I got married during the war, in 1945, and we lived in New York for a while. I didn't go right into the business. I did different jobs in New York. GE: When your mother and stepfather married in 1936, from what you remember, was he working here and coming home on the weekends? MP: Yes. As a matter of fact I remember going to the subway station and helping him carry his bags. He made me do the Haftorah every Saturday morning. I could do any Haftarah. GE: He made you do the Haftarah. MP: He was very religious and we followed suit. SC: Were you as religious before that? MP: Not really. I was Bar Mitzvahed after he married my mother. As a matter of fact, I laid Tifillin until I went into the army. GE: And that's where you do Morning prayer and Evening prayer. SC: What year did you go into the army? MP: 1945. GE: You went into the army in 1945? SC: So you would have been 20. MP: During the second half of the war and then afterwards, in peacetime. SC: Where were you deployed after you went into the army? Were you in Germany? MP: No, stateside. SC: Stateside the whole time. I know some people did go over and went to Japan or after the war went to Germany during the times of refugees. MP: I had majored in chemistry when I went to City College and I kept getting deferred from being drafted until I graduated. Once I graduated, then they inducted me into the army. After basic training they sent me to Randolph Field in Texas to work in a laboratory. So I never saw real action. SC: And so what made you decide to go into chemistry at City College and did you use it at all once you went into the business? MP: Very little. Some TV shows where you had to say what the signs were for certain chemicals and what certain elements were. Now the element for gold is Au. Did you know that? GE: I did, from chemistry. MP: Then, Sodium was Na. It's weird. GE: Some things stick with you. Did you ever work as a chemist? MP: No. SC: Because you would only have been 20 when you were drafted. MP: I graduated from City College when I was nineteen and a half. Then I worked for a company in New York for a few months, called American Cystoscope Makers. Do you know what a cystoscope is? GE: Is it medical? MP: It's a device where they look into . . . GE: For the bladder. MP: And they were setting up a laboratory, so they hired a main chemist and then he hired me. It was only a couple of months and then I was drafted. SC: Do you remember his name? MP: No. SC: So you were drafted? How long were you in the Armed Services? MP: A little over a year. SC: So it was 1946. MP: As a matter of fact, I was supposed to go overseas. In the Army you get orders, it tells you what to do. I had orders to go to Greensboro, NC, which was a replacement depot for overseas. I was there for a couple of weeks. Then all of a sudden I got orders to go to Massachusetts, there's a big field out there for discharge. I was wondering, how was I so lucky? But, that's the way it went down. I think they made a mistake on me. SC: That's a good mistake! GE: Murray, when you were a child, your mother remarried, you were eleven years old. Do you have any memory of your father? MP No, I was five when he died. GE: What did he die from? MP: He was a house painter. No one really remembers if it was his heart or was it lead poisoning. In those days they used lead. I remember an uncle was also a house painter, it was one of his brothers, telling him, "Abie, wash your hands!" My father's name was Abraham. He never washed his hands, most of them didn't. He didn't die here--..he went to Poland -- to Warsaw -- to see his parents, and he died there. GE: From the time that you were five until eleven, until your mother married this man, where did you and your mom live? MP: We lived with my grandparents for a while, the one who had a coal yard -- they didn't have it then anymore. We lived with them for a while. Then my mother met another woman, a friend, and they took an apartment together. GE: Did your mom work during that time? MP: Yes, in the apparel industry, in New York. Let me tell you a very funny incident. She didn't have any experience [unintelligible] and she applied to a job after my father died. She didn't know anything about sewing, so the man told her to sit down and sew. He sees that she can't sew and he can't use her. She says, well look, (she was very young and beautiful at the time) can you show me how the machine works? He said, sure. Then she went down, went around the corner to another factory to get a job there -- she told the lady that she had experience. My mother didn't have book learning, but she was smart. GE: Did she work as a sewer? MP: Right. GE: Is that the time you moved a lot? MP: We moved a lot after my mom and stepfather were married. We lived in New York for a couple of years, around Brooklyn. GE: During this time when it was you and your mom, I know the Depression was going on, what was life like? Were you very poor? MP: If we were poor, we didn't know it - we had nothing to compare it to. GE: Did you rent? Did you live in an apartment? MP: Oh yes, $45.00 a month rent and the first two months were free! SC: Do you have any memories of what you did in New York playing games? What the children did? MP: I remember playing handball against the wall with some other kids. There was a store right around the corner and the wall was brick -- we played handball there. The guy would come out and yell at us. Years later, we bought a home in Brooklyn, this was before we came here, an end of the row. Then the other kids came and played handball against our wall. GE: Do you remember what school was like? Do you remember playing much? Were you very studious? Did you play a lot? MP: I must have been [studious] because I advanced. In those days they had what they called"RA" - rapid advancement. I guess I had all those courses because I graduated high school at 16, college at 19. I guess I must have been studious. SC: Do you remember playing "kick the can?" MP: I remember playing stick ball -- in the middle of the street. If the ball hit a car, it was out! There weren't many cars then. We played stick ball with a broom handle. SC: Any other memories from your childhood? You have a wonderful memory! Anything else that sticks out to you? Experiences or stories? GE: Murray, you were an only child weren't you? MP: My stepfather had a daughter, Phyllis Steinberg. Does the name ring a bell? GE: Well, Judge Steinberg? MP: That's her son. GE: So his mother was your step-sister. MP: Well, I didn't refer to her as a step-sister, we were very close. GE: Isn't that nice. When your mother married Platt, you were 11, how old was she? MP: She was ten years older than me. GE: Was she already married? MP: She got married the same year. She got married in July, my mother got married to my step-father in November. GE: So you always had a close relationship with her. SC: That's very nice, and she wasn't living in your house at that time? MP: No. Her husband, Henry, had been a lawyer in New York and, I don't know, things, I guess, weren't that great. Anyhow, he had an uncle who had moved a plant to North Carolina and so Henry came down there to work for him. GE: So Henry was an attorney but he also went into textiles. MP: Yes, as a matter of fact, he had a plant in Emmaus. After he worked in North Carolina for a couple of years, then he came up here and this man who came here when he was ten years old -- Samuel Fuchs with six dollars in his pocket - when he died, he was a multi-millionaire. GE: And who is Samuel Fuchs? MP: That is my step-sister's mother's brother. GE: So your step-sister's uncle. SC: How do you spell Fuchs? MP: F-U-C-H-S. I know it's not a nice name----. SC: I always ask because there are so many different spellings -- for the future. MP: He came here as a boy. He started to work in a sewing factory, a couple of years later he bought the factory. Then he started expanding. GE: Was that one of the very first factories? MP: It was in Allentown for a while then he moved to North Carolina --a town called Kinston. He had a big factory, then he went to building and as I said when he died he was a multi-millionaire. SC: Any other memories about your childhood and youth? MP: Not really. GE: About Brooklyn and what it was like? MP: I know we went to Dodgers games. GE: Okay, tell us about it. MP: The Brooklyn Dodgers - twenty-five cents to sit in the bleachers. There was a pitcher, Carl Hubbell -- I don't know if you ever heard of him? He had in one year, won 26 and lost 6 -- and that record still stands. He is the originator of the screwball. Did you hear of that in relation to pitching? That was his thing. SC: Going back then to when you were part of the business, what did you do when you first became part of your step-father's business? MP: Our partners, while my father was the general factory man, one of the other partners was a mechanic and the third partner took care of the cutting and went to New York to collect money for payroll. In those days you had to wait for it to come by mail. [unintelligible] It was a pretty big payroll, don't forget there was pretty many people working. When we came into the business, I took over my father's job of being on the floor, as they say, in production. The mechanic's son took over the mechanics and the other son took over the cutting -- he was in charge of the cutting room. SC: When you say mechanic -- what exactly did that job entail? MP: Well, the machines had to be fixed. Some were bought new, some were bought used, and so on. SC: So did his father then teach him that trade or did he go to school anywhere for it? MP: No, we were all college graduates. GE: You were college graduates but you learned the business by being in the business. Why didn't you go into something, for instance, you were a chemist? Why did you go into the business rather than pursuing . . . .? MP: I always wanted to go into business. GE: Do you think that's true for all three of you? That you just wanted to be in business. MP: Yes. We never had a real profession, although we were all college grads, we hadn't really worked at it. GE: Was it hard, as a Jewish person, to get a job as a chemist? MP: Yes. As a chemist, in a bank . . . a lot of places. The going salary was $35.00 per week. GE: There were a few things - One, it was hard to get a good job as a Jewish person and secondly, it was not that lucrative. It was perhaps more lucrative to go into business. SC: We've asked people, " Why do you think in this region, there was so many Jewish textile or garment industry people." Do you think there is an answer to that? MP: No, except that the Jews gravitated towards this business. It was easy to get into. It didn't require much capital so you didn't have to go borrow money. You set up your own factory and in those days there was a big demand. GE: Who actually was the salesperson or the liaison person with the manufacturers? MP: Samuel Simon. He was the one who would go to New York every week to collect money for payroll. GE: That's also the guy you said was the cutting. MP: Right. GE: Was he, let's say for instance, was he also the one when a contract would run out -- he was the one who would negotiate the contract? MP: We didn't have any formal contracts -- nothing was in writing. You just did the work for them and you hoped they would send you more fabric and it was an on-going deal. GE: Let's say that things were slowing a little, who found a new manufacturer to work for? MP: By then Simon was his garment [unintelligible] and things weren't slow until, I don't know, the 70's or thereabout. GE: So prior to that it was just constant -- all you had to do was fulfill it in a sense. You didn't have to look for it. SC: How were the New York manufacturers different than the Philadelphia manufacturers? Was there a different system going? MP: No. SC: Were the manufacturers bigger in New York and smaller in Philadelphia? MP: Gordon in Philadelphia was a big, big outfit. J. G. Hook -- they are still around, but not as popular. SC: The reason I ask this was New England and New York seem to be larger initially, and many of the Philly textile people were more special order in the late 19th century and very early 20th century. So it had changed by that time . . . MP: We knew only the manufacturers. We did not know other contractors in those areas. SC: As far as you being on the floor, did that mean that you learned every element of sewing and did you actually know how to sew? MP: Oh I know, I still know how to sew. I showed different girls how to sew. SC: So you knew all of the operations so you really could be a hands-on employer. One of the partners was cutting in the cutting room and the other one was the mechanic. Did all of you stay together for a long time? MP: For a while and then gradually they died. GE: Were they older than you? MP: They must have been. One of the partners died in 1976 and the other partner died in 1980. GE: But you stayed together as partners until they were deceased. MP: Not that we didn't have any fights! SC: That's wonderful and unusual too. As far as the business was concerned, did it grow and did you add more machinery and more employees? Maybe different people cutting? MP: Slightly in the beginning, but then it became more and more difficult, it didn't really go downhill, but it was tough to get customers. We had stable customers - Gordon in Philadelphia, J.G. Hook . One company called [unintelligible]. And another one was . . . I forget the name of it. GE: So it was a stable business, not really a growing business. MP: Right, then, I retired in 1987. I turned the business over to a young man who had been working for me. SC: So you gave him an opportunity? MP: He was the son of the foreman when the factory came to Allentown. SC: What was his name -- the foreman? MP: Sam Lutz. He wasn't Jewish. SC: He was Pennsylvania Dutch probably. GE: Did the business survive for a while longer? MP: For a while, but this guy didn't pay much attention to the business. People, customers, would call, they'd want you, they didn't want an office person and he wasn't there. So he lasted a few years, every week it was less and then he just left. SC: Do you know what happened to him, where he went after that? MP: He went to Tama. He was going to cut. GE: He went where? MP: He went to the cutting room at Tama. GE: Tama -- that's Fogelman? MP: After that I don't know what happened. He ended up owing me some money. We had a contract that he would give me so much a week up until a certain amount. [unintelligible] SC: Did the ethnicity of the workers change between the late '40's until 1987? Did they come from different family backgrounds? MP: Towards the end we had more Latino people - as they came along - moving into town. SC: Because this was a good entry work job. MP: At the beginning, it was always Pennsylvania Dutch, Czechoslovokian people, Irish people, but the last few years things were changed. SC: As far as where the factory was--did it stay on Franklin Street the whole time? MP: Yes. SC: Franklin is between 14th and 15th? GE: No, 13th and 14th. MP: No, it was between 14th and 15th. SC: How far up north or was it pretty far down south? MP: It was in the 400 block. SC: It was fairly close to the older factory? MP: Yes, 4th and Union to Franklin. SC: That was pretty many blocks. So, it was in south Allentown. Where did you live when you moved to Allentown? Where did your family live? MP: Valley View Apartments. Do you know where they are? SC: No. GE: This is when you first came. Where is that? MP: South -- right off 15th street - 15th and Elm. The rent there was $92.00 a month. SC: So the three of you lived in an apartment? MP: The others somewhere else. GE: It was just you and Dot? MP: Right. SC: So where did they live? MP: One lived in Tremont Apartments, and I don't know where the other one lived. SC: As far as the older generation -- were they still around? Living in Allentown? MP: No, they had died by then. GE: Your fathers had all passed away. When did your step-father pass away? MP: 1976. GE: Okay, but when you went into the business. . . You went into the business when? Nineteen . . . MP: 54-55. GE: Around 1955 you came here. You went into the business, rather . . . before that you were living in New York -- you and Dottie. When you came here, your father and the two partners were still in the business. MP: Right. GE: You were just coming in with them, and then you stayed in the business with them until -- when did they retire? When did your father retire? MP He never came into the business the last few years, but he still drew a small salary. The other two likely died, I forget the years they died. GE: You went into business around 1955 and those men, as long as they were alive, they were drawing a salary, so you just gradually moved into the business. In 1955, you were doing the production part, were the other two sons of the other two partners, were they now in the business, as well? MP: Yes. They all came in. GE: At that time, this was a very active -- the textile industry was very active. MP: And doing well. GE: Yes, and doing well. Tell us what was the community like? What did you and Dot think when you came here? The Jewish community . . . and when did you start having children? MP: We went to the JCC as soon as we got here. In those days it was still at 6th Street. GE: 6th and Chew I think it was. MP: This building wasn't built until 1958 or 59. SC: How about the community in general? What did you think about the community? Was it friendly? MP: Hess's was great. That was a focal point. SC: I haven't interviewed anyone that hasn't talked about it. MP: You mention Allentown and Hess's and people say, "oh yes, I know Hess's" GE: And the whole downtown was great. MP: There was no Sunday shopping, and it was only open Monday and Thursday evenings. My wife, when she was pregnant, a month or so afterwards she went there and they said, "what did you have, a boy or a girl?" They was a very homey atmosphere. GE: And that was even at the department store. SC: Did you go to the Patio at all? MP: No, I think it was too expensive for me. GE: The Patio was just the restaurant? MP: Yes. They had these great big ice cream things. SC: And strawberry pie. GE: You joined the JCC -- did you find that you easily met people from that? MP: Oh yeah, we had a big circle of friends. Most of them aren't around now. Some moved to Florida, some died. GE: When did you start having children? MP: Our oldest daughter was born in New York and Dennis, the middle son was born here -- right after we moved here. GE: So your oldest child was born in what year? MP: 1949. GE: So your oldest is about 62-63 years old. MP: Right. GE: And then your second child? MP: Dennis -- he was born here. GE: That was nineteen . . .? MP: 54. GE: 1954. The first two, those were boys? MP: No, the first one was a girl. GE: What was her name? MP: Arlene, and she never married. GE: Your second is Dennis. And then your youngest? MP: Ken. GE: What year was he born? MP: Now you're making me think. GE: How old is he? MP: 61. GE: So he was born in '61 -- so he's about 51. MP: He just got his AARP card -- now you get it at 50. SC: Did any of them want to come into the business? MP: Oh no. SC: What did they end up doing? MP: Well, Dennis is a lawyer in Philly. Ken is a pediatrician in Connecticut. and Arlene works for the state in the Welfare Department. She's a supervisor. GE: In the Welfare Department? MP: Yes. SC: Does she work in the Allentown area or in Harrisburg? MP: In Philly. SC: So two of them are together in Philly? MP: No. GE: They both work in the Philly area. MP: They are close. GE: Did they never want to go into the business or did you not want them to go into the business? MP: Combination of both. Although when they were kids, they came and helped work out in the summer. We never urged them. GE: Why? MP: I don't know, we wanted them to be professionals. GE: I'm just curious, were you already seeing the business didn't have that long of a future? MP: Not at that time, we didn't know what the future would be. But, we knew that we wanted the kids to be professionals. SC: It's the American Dream. MP: We were lucky that we could help them out -- we could afford it. SC: Where did they go to school, college? MP: Dennis went to Syracuse undergrad and to Villanova Law School. Ken went to U of P and Duke Medical School, and Arlene went to Penn State, which in those days the tuition, I think, was $1100.00. GE: Things were a little different. SC: Also, as far as the business is concerned, are there any memories you have -- really vivid memories you have of some times in the business -- either highs or lows when you were in the business? MP: Except that we took the various customer's agents out to lunch. GE: Oh, so the customer's agents -- did they often come to your . . .? MP: Yeah, they come once or twice a week. GE: Was that more just to pick up and drop off? MP: Just to see how things were going - how their products were being manufactured. To make sure everything is right and to go to lunch. GE: The manufacturer's agent -- were they employees of the manufacturer? MP: Yes. GE: Oh, they were actually employees. I wasn't sure if they were employees or if they kind of had their own business. SC: Were you unionized? MP: Yes. SC: Which union? MP: Amalgamated Textile Workers. There were two apparel unions - one was the International Ladies Garment Workers and the other was Amalgamated. Since we had made men's wear to start with, it was Amalgamated. Then in later years, we didn't make any more shirts, but the other union didn't bother us. SC: Were you a member of the manufacturer's associations? MP: Probably. GE: Like Arnold Delin? Does that sound familiar? MP: Delin was the other union. SC: Right he was the IGLU -- I hope I said it right. There were two manufacturer's associations in the region. GE: I think one was the Lehigh Valley? SC: Were you a member there? MP: I don't remember. SC: Do you have any other business questions? We could talk about the community then. GE: Did you ever become very automated? MP: No. GE: So yours always stayed pretty basic. MP: Right. Tama did and that's why they lasted longer than everyone else. They just closed two or three years ago. Now I understand all the off-shore plants are automated. [unintelligible] with computers. GE: Right - I guess that's really primarily in terms of the business. You said that your product changed - let's say you did shirts and blouses, is that what you did the whole time? MP: Yes. SC: Is there a reason why you stopped doing shirts? MP: Well, because it became too competitive. Shirts were the first ones to go down south. Blouses, it was more specialty, dresses also the same thing. GE: So you stayed in blouses and dresses. MP: There were smaller, smaller lots -- a group was called a "lot". The shirts could be under the dozens -- all the same - but blouses - a lesser amount. GE: In a sense, the business - niche that you built for yourself was doing specialty -- like smaller lots? MP: More or less, and that's why we existed as long as we did. GE: And it was primarily dresses and blouses? MP: Yes. SC: As far as the 1960's and '70's -- did the business change at all because people became more casual? Did that have an effect on you? MP: No, because we still made classic garments. We made blouses that my wife still has today. They look as good as they did then. There are always certain classics. GE: The dresses you were making, were they typically for young girls, for older women? MP: Older Women. GE: Because dresses -- young women stopped wearing dresses. MP: These were classic types of things. SC: Does your wife still have any blouses that you manufactured? MP: Tons of them. SC: It would be nice to see some of them so we could photograph them. GE: We'll get them later. SC: That's pretty good with the business. GE: You said with the women, it was very boring work. MP: Honey [talking to his wife], these girls would like to see one of your blouses. DOTTIE PLATT: Okay. MP: When's your appointment? Soon? DP: Yes, and I wanted to eat something. You girls, living in this area, what's your second name? GE: Eisenberg. DP: I've heard of that. GE: You've seen me over the years at the Synagogue and things. And she is Susan Clemens. DP: And you grew up in this area? SC: Susan Clement-Bruder. I grew up in Ewing Township, outside of Trenton, New Jersey. GE: And I grew up in Philadelphia - in a very modest home. DP: But it must be very nice. When you are an immigrant, you come here with empty pockets and your children -- they don't have anything. You have to realize this, now come in, and I'll show you my blouses. Then I married Murray because he graduated college at 19, and I thought he was older than that, and he thought I was younger than I am because my mother was looking for the fountain of youth. She lost her hair at as a young girl. There's a name for this illness. MP: Alopecia. GE: Oh. DP: Some people in our area, now, the doctor's wife, I want to say, don't have hair. Do you know Dr. Silverman? MP: Diane. GE: Oh yes. DP: So, my mother had that illness. MP: To make a long story short, my wife worked in the factory -- in the office for several years. As a lot came along, she took a blouse from each one. The one blouse each added up to many blouses over the years. DP: The girl there smoked. Smokers are so addicted that even though they know it hurts them, they sometimes continue. MP: I hope you girls don't smoke. GE: No. DP: There was an article written about a smoker in the Reader's Digest who was a doctor, and he thought it would never happen to him, and he died. I have the article. MP: We had two office girls and one of them developed emphysema. DP: So I came in -- I didn't take anyone's job. I came in to help and I just stayed there. I took one from every lot! It's there for the taking, girls, and I grew up with one blouse. GE: Were you born here? DP: I was born here. GE: You were born here, just your parents came over. DP: Yes. GE: Frankly, my mother was also born here. My father, he didn't come over until 1949. His family was still in Europe and everyone got killed except for him. DP: That really is pretty late to come over. GE: When your family went through the war, that's when you came over. DP: When did Sarah and Sasha come over? MP: Somewhere in the late 40's. GE: If they were after the war they came over, because afterwards, they went to DP camps. MP: Some went to Israel, some came here. DP: So come on, I'll show you my blouses. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Murray Platt, July 26, 2012
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Murray Platt talks about how his father’s family began in New York making women’s shirts, failed due to the unions, and then came in the late 1930s to the Lehigh Valley. Murray’s father, with two partners, established Lehigh Valley Shirt Manufacturing Company. They were contractors for manufacturers in New York and in Philadelphia. They cut, sewed and finished the products. The business continued by the sons of these three original partners.
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LVTNT-17
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2012-07-26
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
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Mort Miller
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5.4 May 31, 2016 Mort Miller, May 31, 2016 LVTNT-25 19:42 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Mort Miller Judy Miller Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 MillerMort_20160531 1.0:|21(2)|40(3)|55(12)|80(7)|101(7)|124(9)|149(14)|166(16)|187(2)|210(4)|233(8)|260(8)|285(10)|304(9)|327(12)|348(15)|365(8)|378(10)|399(10)|412(7) 0 https://youtu.be/rLHvGqO_Ork YouTube video 0 Introduction—Mort Miller GE: So right now, it's recording.
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 ; SC: Yes, it's going on, yes. OK. OK. Today is May 31, 2016, and we'd like to start with and continue with what your full name is, where you were born and where you lived in your life.
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 ; MM: My name is Morton Jay Miller. I was born in Brooklyn, New York, on February 12th, 1924. 0 38 Family History SC: And we'll go back now into your family history. As much as you know about your family history. Where did they come from? Where did they work, et cetera? 
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 ; MM: My father was an immigrant from Poland. He lived in a town called Kolno, which is 50 miles northwest of Warsaw. He arrived in this country in 1910. My mother was born in this country, in Brooklyn, and her father came to this country in eighteen eighty-five, I think. And her mother came about when my mother's mother, my grandmother came about the same time. I never saw my Polish grandmother. She died in Europe. My father, my grandfather — my maternal grandfather — did come to this country, and I did know him.
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 ; SC: Do you know where they specifically lived or and also what they did as far as work is concerned here? From the time they left Poland or what they were doing in Europe and then came to this country?
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 ; MM: My father, he came here in 1910, for a while lived with relatives in Mount Vernon, New York. And then he started a business shortly after he came here, manufacturing raincoats. And he did that until 1917 when he was drafted into the army for World War One. My mother was born in Brooklyn. She lived in Brooklyn until she, until she, moved actually to Allentown, which was in 1938. That's when our family moved from New York, from Brooklyn, to Allentown in 1938. 0 448 Education MM: I said I was born in Brooklyn in community of Boro Park, which was almost 100 percent Jewish community. Interesting community in the sense that it was. . . and to this day, it's the only community in the United States that was started by Jews, in the late eighteen 1800s, and to this day has never been anything but Jewish. Today it is ultra-orthodox, as a matter of fact. Anyway, I went to a Hebrew school, a yeshiva, started in kindergarten, went through ninth grade. When I was at that point, I was 14 years old. At that point, my parents moved to Allentown. My father had a business in Brooklyn, but in 1934 he moved it to Allentown, and he commuted for four years. His sister moved here with him, so he had a place to live. And in 1938, our family moved to Allentown. And I've been here ever since. I attended Allen high school. And I then went on to the University of Pennsylvania. And in my beginning of my sophomore year . . . the war had started my freshman year. At the beginning of my sophomore year, I was drafted. I was in the Army for almost three years, came back and then finished school. And I graduated from Penn — University of Pennsylvania — in nineteen forty-seven. The Wharton School. 0 546 Success of Miller Underwear (Father's Business) SC: Yes. And so what- do you have any memories of your father's business when you were young?
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 ; MM: Not really, we were very little involved with his business. It was a very successful business. Even during the Depression, my family was financially, reasonably well off. We never suffered from the Depression at all. And I think it was a good-sized business that employed about two hundred and fifty people. This was in Brooklyn and then employed almost the same number when they moved here to Allentown. At that time, he was no longer manufacturing raincoats, he was manufacturing ladies sleepwear, and eventually when I graduated from college, I went into my father's business for two years. 0 661 Serving in the U.S. Air Force JM: I think you didn't tell them what you did in the Army.
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 ; MM: Would you want to know that? 
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 ; SC: Yes, that would be wonderful.
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 ; MM: Right. In the Army, I was in the Air Force. I was not a flier because I had gone to the Wharton School. I got into finance, and I spent two years overseas in England, which is the best possible thing. I was stationed, again, 50 miles from London. And there was a train that ran directly from the town that I was stationed in into London. And every month I got a four-day pass to London. I spent four days in London every month for two years. 0 752 Miller Underwear (cont'd) GE: You want to tell us a little bit about your father's business once in Allentown.
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 ; JM: Why did he come to Allentown, tell them that? 
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 ; GE: And also, once in Allentown, you and your brother-in-law went into your own business. Was that where he stayed with his son, with another son in business, or what was what? And what was the sequence of your father's business?
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 ; MM: OK, my father moved as best as I say here in nineteen thirty-four. There was a depression and things were difficult. And to be very honest, he moved here . . . he was unionized in New York, in Brooklyn, and he moved here to escape the union, which he did. A union did try to unionize them here in Allentown. They were never able to. He remained in business until nineteen forty-five, at which time he sold the business and retired. He then bought a building, good-sized building, in Bethlehem on Seneca Street. And after two years, in nineteen forty-seven, he decided that he was too young to be retired. And he went back into business and he then merged his business with a cousin who was- had a business in New York. And they manufactured not sleepwear like where they manufactured children's pajamas. And that's all right. And he remained in that business until nineteen forty-nine, I think, at which point he became ill, and he can no longer work. And he then sold his interest in the business. 0 964 Origins of the ARDRU Label MM: The name on the label, on the garments that we sold was ARDRU Undergarment – A-R-D-R-U. We got the name . . my nephew was Shepherd, we took the last three letters of his name, and our son was Andrew, we took the last two letters of his name and it became ARDRU undergarment and that was the label that was on our . . . 0 1061 Millcrest Manufacturing Company—Benefits of Nonunion Work MM: As I say, we started our business in 1949, and we were nonunion, and the union did try to unionize us, the ILG, and they tried for 40 years, and were not able to. And one of the interesting things was one of the women who worked for me, she and two of her sisters and a niece, all worked for me, and her husband, this woman's husband was the president of the Bethlehem Steel Union. And I said to her, I said, Margaret, your husband is the head of the Bethlehem Steel Union. How does he feel about all of you working in a non-union shop? And she said, Mort, we've talked about this. And my husband says to me, they're good people, you like them, they treat you well, they pay you the same wages and give you the same benefits as a union. You don't have to work in a union shop, stay where you are.
 ; 
 ; JM: Tell them why a union, I mean nonunion shop was good for the women?
 ; 
 ; MM: One of the advantages of working in our shop as opposed to . . . women had particular jobs in a union shop. If you were a collar setter, you set collars. If you were a cuff setter, you set cuffs, but you did nothing else except that. And if there wasn’t any work for collar setters, you were sent home. 0 MovingImage Mort Miller talks about growing up around his father’s contract sewing business. Later, Mort partnered with his brother-in-law to open their own contract sewing factory. Originally they made women’s underwear, later they switched to making women’s lingerie, which wasn’t as price competitive. Interview with Mort Miller, May 31, 2016 GAIL EISENBERG: So right now, it's recording. SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Yes, it's going on, yes. OK. OK. Today is May 31, 2016, and we'd like to start with and continue with what your full name is, where you were born and where you lived in your life. MORT MILLER: My name is Morton Jay Miller. I was born in Brooklyn, New York, on February 12th, 1924. SC: And we'll go back now into your family history. As much as you know about your family history. Where did they come from? Where did they work, et cetera? MM: My father was an immigrant from Poland. He lived in a town called Kolno, which is 50 miles northwest of Warsaw. He arrived in this country in 1910. My mother was born in this country, in Brooklyn, and her father came to this country in eighteen eighty-five, I think. And her mother came about when my mother's mother, my grandmother came about the same time. I never saw my Polish grandmother. She died in Europe. My father, my grandfather -- my maternal grandfather -- did come to this country, and I did know him. SC: Do you know where they specifically lived or and also what they did as far as work is concerned here? From the time they left Poland or what they were doing in Europe and then came to this country? MM: My father, he came here in 1910, for a while lived with relatives in Mount Vernon, New York. And then he started a business shortly after he came here, manufacturing raincoats. And he did that until 1917 when he was drafted into the army for World War One. My mother was born in Brooklyn. She lived in Brooklyn until she, until she, moved actually to Allentown, which was in 1938. That's when our family moved from New York, from Brooklyn, to Allentown in 1938. SC: So and the other side of your family, do you know what the grandfathers did working? MM: Yeah, I'm not sure, my grandfather came from Odessa. And he came to this country when he was only 16 years old, I think, or 18 years old, and he found some sort of work selling plumbing materials. And he eventually went into business for himself, did rather well, and he acquired some real estate in New York, in the Lower East Side of New York. And that's basically how they supported themselves. I don't know anything about really about my maternal grandmother. I don't know exactly where she came from, in Europe, it was Russia, and I'm not really sure where. JUDY MILLER: Your mother's family was from Odessa? MM: Well, I don't know about that. MM: Well, maybe. SC: Thank you. MM: My father's family came from Kolno. JM: And what did they do there? MM: My father's family in Europe had a flour mill in the little town of Kolno. I would say the town was about 50 miles from Warsaw and it was two thirds of the town was Jewish. And unfortunately, it was only six miles from the German border, and when World War II started, within a few days, all the Jews in the city would be killed. None survived. I think my father did have family in this little town. They were all killed during the German occupation. SC: But he had already left. MM: He left in 1910. JM: His sister . . . [unintelligible] MM: He left after the war, that was World War I, but here they were killed in World War Two. SC: Yes. So so the family- the sister and brother were both okay. MM: Yes. But they had other family. He had a father, had three sisters, all who came to this country and one brother who came to this country and his father. JM: Tell the story that they went to Germany. The story that the grandmother was a smuggler. SC: Was a smuggler . . . oh MM: So they lived only six miles from the German border and they had this flour mill, and they used to send wagon loads of flour into Germany. And the wagon would go with flour and my grandmother, apparently would hide a few things in the wagon, which were then sold in Poland. And they would come back with things in Germany, and they would come back with things from Germany. SC: They could smuggle some people away from Germany. They didn't wouldn't have thought of that. MM: No, no, no, no, no. No need to smuggle. SC: Not then. JM: There's no need to . . . [unintelligible by Judy Miller] . . . She brought pearls and fabric . . . because fabric was really essential because no one was manufacturing them. MM: My father had a cousin in this little town who went to Germany and went to medical school in Germany. And my father used to often go to Germany and visit with him. And as a result, my father was reasonably fluent in German. SC: It's coming. I'm watching the red button. So let's go to your youth. Can you talk about what you did as a young boy, where you worked, if you worked anywhere through your entire life? But stop at when you got, you know, when you started working as an adult. MM: I said I was born in Brooklyn in community of Boro Park, which was almost 100 percent Jewish community. Interesting community in the sense that it was. . . and to this day, it's the only community in the United States that was started by Jews, in the late eighteen 1800s, and to this day has never been anything but Jewish. Today it is ultra-orthodox, as a matter of fact. Anyway, I went to a Hebrew school, a yeshiva, started in kindergarten, went through ninth grade. When I was at that point, I was 14 years old. At that point, my parents moved to Allentown. My father had a business in Brooklyn, but in 1934 he moved it to Allentown, and he commuted for four years. His sister moved here with him, so he had a place to live. And in 1938, our family moved to Allentown. And I've been here ever since. I attended Allen high school. And I then went on to the University of Pennsylvania. And in my beginning of my sophomore year . . . the war had started my freshman year. At the beginning of my sophomore year, I was drafted. I was in the Army for almost three years, came back and then finished school. And I graduated from Penn -- University of Pennsylvania -- in nineteen forty-seven. The Wharton School. SC: Yes. And so what- do you have any memories of your father's business when you were young? MM: Not really, we were very little involved with his business. It was a very successful business. Even during the Depression, my family was financially, reasonably well off. We never suffered from the Depression at all. And I think it was a good-sized business that employed about two hundred and fifty people. This was in Brooklyn and then employed almost the same number when they moved here to Allentown. At that time, he was no longer manufacturing raincoats, he was manufacturing ladies sleepwear, and eventually when I graduated from college, I went into my father's business for two years. And then my brother-in-law and my sister had just gotten married. This was in nineteen forty-seven. In nineteen forty-nine, my brother-in-law and I started our own business. I remained in business until I was sixty-six years old. I retired in nineteen ninety. What's that? JM: What's the name of the name of the business? MM: It was Millcrest Manufacturing Company. SC: Would you spell that? MM: We also manufacture primarily sleepwear, and we sold to department stores and chain stores all over the country. It is Millcrest. All one word, M-I-L-L-C-R-E-S-T Manufacturing. SC: And that's where we have, we- Is there anything that you can think of? JM: We had a story. Yes, yes. Yes. I think you didn't tell them what you did in the Army. MM: Would you want to know that? SC: Yes, that would be wonderful. MM: Right. In the Army, I was in the Air Force. I was not a flier because I had gone to the Wharton School. I got into finance, and I spent two years overseas in England, which is the best possible thing. I was stationed, again, 50 miles from London. And there was a train that ran directly from the town that I was stationed in into London. And every month I got a four-day pass to London. I spent four days in London every month for two years. SC: Do you know the name of the town that you were in south of London? MM: Yes. It was not south of London. It was north of London, Sudbury, Sudbury and East Anglia. Another story, I was just talking with a friend a few days ago, we were only about 20 miles from Cambridge, and a friend and I, on a number of occasions, would go into Cambridge and spend time there and go through the various buildings at the university. We met a few people. We never really got friendly with anybody there. SC: That's a pretty area, East Anglia Base. MM: Yeah, I've been back to my air base three times. Security back there and my children have actually been back with us. GE: You want to tell us a little bit about your father's business once in Allentown. JM: Why did he come to Allentown, tell them that? GE: And also, once in Allentown, you and your brother-in-law went into your own business. Was that where he stayed with his son, with another son in business, or what was what? And what was the sequence of your father's business? MM: OK, my father moved as best as I say here in nineteen thirty-four. There was a depression and things were difficult. And to be very honest, he moved here . . . he was unionized in New York, in Brooklyn, and he moved here to escape the union, which he did. A union did try to unionize them here in Allentown. They were never able to. He remained in business until nineteen forty-five, at which time he sold the business and retired. He then bought a building, good-sized building, in Bethlehem on Seneca Street. And after two years, in nineteen forty-seven, he decided that he was too young to be retired. And he went back into business and he then merged his business with a cousin who was- had a business in New York. And they manufactured not sleepwear like where they manufactured children's pajamas. And that's all right. And he remained in that business until nineteen forty-nine, I think, at which point he became ill, and he can no longer work. And he then sold his interest in the business. And move to El Paso, Texas, as a matter of fact. The reason for that being that he had developed a terrible skin condition -- terrible, he had broken out all over his entire body. They could not do anything to cure Father. He went to a doctor in New York and the doctor said, Mr. Miller, there's only one thing that's going to cure you. You have to move to El Paso, Texas. My father said, are you crazy? And he said, that's the only thing that's going to cure you. In fact, he was so desperate, he moved to El Paso, stayed there for two or three years, and it did cure him. And he came back and it never came back after that. SC: Is there a reason why El Paso. . . MM: Yes, it has a very dry because it's a very dry state. Yeah. Yeah. It's warm most of the time and very, very dry and sunny. [some conversation about Phoenix--hard to hear and not relevant] GE: What was the name of your father's. . . MM: Actually, it was Miller Underwear, and he also had the trade name of Millcrest, which at that point he had stopped using, and my brother-in-law then took that as the name for our business. SC: Do you have any other questions about the business? JM: [hard to understand . . . talk about the name of the label] MM: The name on the label, on the garments that we sold was ARDRU Undergarment -- A-R-D-R-U. We got the name . . my nephew was Shepherd, we took the last three letters of his name, and our son was Andrew, we took the last two letters of his name and it became ARDRU undergarment and that was the label that was on our . . . [chatter by everyone . . . hard to understand] MM: It was Stanley's father, who combined his business with my father's business. They had a factory in New York that they wanted to get out of that also. And they moved here. A distant cousin. [chatter by everyone, unimportant, and hard to understand] SC: OK, so you were talking about that Harry gave them donuts. Could you talk about the union and say, you know. MM: As I say, we started our business in 1949, and we were nonunion, and the union did try to unionize us, the ILG, and they tried for 40 years, and were not able to. And one of the interesting things was one of the women who worked for me, she and two of her sisters and a niece, all worked for me, and her husband, this woman's husband was the president of the Bethlehem Steel Union. And I said to her, I said, Margaret, your husband is the head of the Bethlehem Steel Union. How does he feel about all of you working in a non-union shop? And she said, Mort, we've talked about this. And my husband says to me, they're good people, you like them, they treat you well, they pay you the same wages and give you the same benefits as a union. You don't have to work in a union shop, stay where you are. JM: Tell them why a union, I mean nonunion shop was good for the women? MM: One of the advantages of working in our shop as opposed to . . . women had particular jobs in a union shop. If you were a collar setter, you set collars. If you were a cuff setter, you set cuffs, but you did nothing else except that. And if there wasn't any work for collar setters, you were sent home. We didn't do that. If you, if you were a collar setter, and we had no collars, you could do something else. So our people were never sent home. They were never unemployed. And that was really an advantage. And also, they didn't have to pay dues to the, to the union, which was. . . JM: You want to hear that? Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Mort Miller, May 31, 2016
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Mort Miller talks about growing up around his father’s contract sewing business. Later, Mort partnered with his brother-in-law to open their own contract sewing factory. Originally they made women’s underwear, later they switched to making women’s lingerie, which wasn’t as price competitive.
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LVTNT-25
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2016-05-31
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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