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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Esther Halperin
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5.4 July 17th, 2012 Esther Halperin, July 17th, 2012 LVTNT-16 28:33 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Esther Halperin Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 HalperinEsther_20120617 1.0:|19(10)|38(7)|53(10)|72(11)|89(17)|110(8)|129(8)|150(12)|173(5)|202(11)|233(2)|256(14)|281(6)|306(8)|331(5)|348(8)|365(17)|394(8)|423(2)|454(8)|473(11)|496(3)|519(6)|540(16)|565(4)|588(5)|609(4)|630(9)|639(8) 0 YouTube video < ; iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fenEsUYdBB0?autoplay=0& ; rel=0" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer ; autoplay ; clipboard-write ; encrypted-media ; gyroscope ; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; 10 Introduction—Esther Halperin SC: Today is July 17th, interview with Esther Halperin — and 2012. Attending are Gail Eisenberg and Susan Clemens-Bruder. So I'd like to take you sort of back. We like to put people into their own family context. So first of all, what is your full name? When were you born and where have you lived in your life?
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 ; EH: Okay, my full name is Esther Waitz Helperin.
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 ; SC: And can you spell Waitz?
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 ; EH: W-A-I-T-Z. I was born August 17th, 1925 at 9th and Liberty Street above my parent's bakery, and I've only lived in Allentown, Pennsylvania all my life. 0 75 Family History SC: And so can you talk a little bit-- putting yourself back into your family history? Can you talk about your family as far back as you know, both sides of your family, where they came from, what their education was and where they worked if you know it?
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 ; EH: All right. Both parents came from Poland. They lived in Warsaw and also in Lodz, Poland. My father was a baker and my mother, they were married in Poland. And they had a bakery with a retail shop in Warsaw. They both came from very large families. My mother and father left Poland and came to New York City.
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 ; GE: About when?
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 ; EH: Let’s see, about 1912. 0 392 Childhood in Fullerton EH: I-- from the time I was five, I lived in Fullerton, which is- I don't know if you know where that is. It's a suburb of Allentown, it's north of Allentown. It was out in the country. We were the only Jewish family in that whole community. But my mother was happy. The element was very definitely all Pennsylvania Dutch. And if you came from anywhere but Allentown or Fullerton, you were an outsider. You were a foreigner.
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 ; GE: Were you considered foreigners or the fact that you were from Allentown...?
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 ; EH: No. If you weren't Pennsylvania Dutch, you-
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 ; GE: Were a foreigner, okay, that’s what I thought. 0 444 Education EH: I was the only Jewish kid in grade school as well as high school. But two-- a sister and a brother preceded me so-- but I got along fine. There was no outward anti-Semitism. I had a lot of friends. I, I was never bullied or hassled or-- I was very popular and I fit in very well, although I- late in my teens, [no], early in my teens I started making Jewish friends. But I went to my high school, I went to Whitehall High School and I went to Moravian and I graduated from Moravian. I married my first husband.
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 ; GE: Excuse me, Moravian — did you go to Moravian College? 
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 ; EH: It was a women's college. It was only a women's college. 0 559 Family History (cont'd) SC: What was your mother's maiden name? Do you know?
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 ; EH: It was Ostrovesky.
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 ; SC: Can you spell that?
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 ; EH: Yeah. O-S-T-R-O-V-E-S-K-Y. 
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 ; SC: And her family was from Warsaw?
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 ; EH: Her family was from- first from Pinchov which is P-I-N-C-H-O-T. O-V? O-V or O-T. Pinchov. It was this very small shtetl. And then they moved, I think to Lodz, which was a big community, and my mother worked there in a knitting- she told me, in a knitting factory. They made caps- hats, knitted caps. And then she met my father and they married there, and then moved to Warsaw, which was even a bigger community then. Lodz was a textile community. 0 631 First Marriage to Marvin Goldberg SC: You graduated from Moravian. 
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 ; EH: I graduated from Moravian. 
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 ; GE: And you know what? Actually, I'm sorry. One other question. You said that you started meeting- making some Jewish friends, were they people from the Allentown community?
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 ; EH: Yes, I would go into the Jewish Community Center, at 6th and Chew Street. And there were a lot of, you know, teenager groups. And we did a lot of things as groups in those days. 
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 ; SC: And did you meet your husband there?
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 ; EH: Yes, my first husband. His name was Marvin Goldberg. And I, well, I married my junior year in- I married him my junior year in college. And four years later, I had my oldest son, Richard. 0 834 Post-Divorce: Single-Motherhood and Career SC: Did your first husband pass away or did you divorce?
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 ; EH: We divorced. My second husband passed away.
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 ; GE: How long were you married to Marvin Goldberg?
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 ; EH: I think about 10 years. 
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 ; SC: And did you have any other children together?
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 ; EH: Just one. 
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 ; SC: Just Richard. And then you taught at . . .
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 ; EH: I taught at the Jewish Community Center, and the reason I did that, I didn't go into public schools, was I wanted to have the same holidays off. Ricky was going to the Jewish Day School and I didn't want to leave him with babysitters, and they weren't that available, so I chose some institution where I would have the same holidays off and I could, you know, be with him. So I taught there for seven years, although I was really overqualified, I felt it was important that I raise my child myself. 0 936 Second Marriage to Bernie Halperin: Widowhood and Taking Over the Contracting Business SC: Then you met Mr. Halperin?
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 ; EH: Yes, we married. And we weren't married very long before he died. Yeah. And I, I was now-- had a 12 year old and a new baby, Jonathan, and I, I didn't see myself-- How do I go back to teaching public school and leaving two children now? So I chose to go up, although I knew not a thing about the garment industry, I said I see other people in this industry with less talent than I have, so maybe I can make it. So I went up with fresh eyes and I, took me a while because, you know, it took me a year to just adjust myself. But I became very successful there. I guess, fresh eyes and I had a lot of obstacles, but I overcame them. 0 1159 Unionizing the Business GE: Okay, so this is around 1965, you found yourself being a widow, two children, and you decided to take over, go into the business.
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 ; EH: Right, right. 
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 ; GE: Okay, great. And there were about eighty-five workers.
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 ; EH: Then, right.
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 ; SC: And what did they produce?
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 ; EH: Well they- the factory produced ladie’s slacks, shorts, skirts and bathing suits. We were non-union — he tried very hard to keep away from the union. Most of the plants in Allentown were unionized, but I soon found that I couldn't get big contracts from non-union places, so I decided it was best if I would unionize because, unless you were a union factory, then ILGWU — you couldn't get the big runs on styles. So I walked into Ike Gordon’s ILG- I don’t know if you ever heard that name.
 ; 
 ; GE: I know ILGWU. 0 1293 Automating the Factory EH: And then I put in a lot of work aids, which most other factories didn't do.
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 ; GE: Say that again — a lot of what?
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 ; EH: Work aids for the sewing machine operators.
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 ; GE: And what does a work aid do, what does it mean?
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 ; EH: Well, in other words, I would have on their machines automatic cutters that would cut the thread instead of them picking up a scissors and having to cut it and then- So I pursued that area and I became pretty well-automated throughout the factory because I felt that was the wave of the future. You could only get them to produce more if they were able to produce more. And I was one of the first in the area to do that, to highly-automate the factory. 0 1420 The Success of Hands-on Management EH: But I must admit that probably because I was a novice and didn't do things the way they were always done, that I was successful in this business. So I looked for change and I got it and I really liked what I was doing very, very much. And I did a lot of physical work myself. I had two kids to support and instead of having a lot of middle management, I was top management and lots of times middle management. So I physically worked on the as well as ran the business.
 ; 
 ; SC: Which historically-
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 ; EH: Was not the way it was. 
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 ; SC: No, but the people who did stay involved in the business and didn't farm out the middle, management jobs really do better because-
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 ; GE: Well you’re in touch. 
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 ; SC: You're in touch with everything.
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 ; EH: Oh yeah, I saw what the problems were. I managed the finishing department, which was the inspecting, the pressing, the hanging and bagging and the tail end of the- I managed that floor as well as running the business. 
 ; 
 ; SC: So you had your hands on quality control? 0 1536 Employees/Discomfort with a Woman Boss SC: Where did you workers come from? Did they come mostly-?
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 ; EH: That area — Slatington, Palmerton, Walnutport. That whole area. 
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 ; SC: And were they more of, ethnically, Pennsylvania Dutch or Eastern European?
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 ; EH: They were a mixture, yeah, they were a mixture. Mostly there were a lot of Welsh in that area and a lot of Pennsylvania Dutch, a lot, and some Slovish or, you know, Polish and Slavic groups. And it wasn't easy. They didn't like having a woman boss in the beginning.
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 ; GE: Did that- did that then get better? 
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 ; EH: Well my mechanic — the mechanic said he didn’t know whether he could work for a woman. So I said, “Give it a try. “ 0 MovingImage Esther Halperin talks about how she became a successful sewing contractor due to financial necessity. Esther’s husband died suddenly, leaving her with two children to support. Esther decided to operate her husband’s factory in Slatington even though at the time she knew nothing about the business. As a woman owner back in the early 1960s, she faced many obstacles-- from employees who didn’t want to work for a woman, to customers who didn't want to buy from a woman. Esther persevered and conquered these challenges to run a successful sewing contracting business for about twenty-five years. Interview with Esther Halperin, July 17th, 2012 GAIL EISENBERG: Actually, while we're talking- SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is July 17th, interview with Esther Halperin -- and 2012. Attending are Gail Eisenberg and Susan Clemens-Bruder. So I'd like to take you sort of back. We like to put people into their own family context. So first of all, what is your full name? When were you born and where have you lived in your life? ESTHER HALPERIN: Okay, my full name is Esther Waitz Helperin. SC: And can you spell Waitz? EH: W-A-I-T-Z. I was born August 17th, 1925 at 9th and Liberty Street above my parent's bakery, and I've only lived in Allentown, Pennsylvania all my life. SC: And so can you talk a little bit-- putting yourself back into your family history? Can you talk about your family as far back as you know, both sides of your family, where they came from, what their education was and where they worked if you know it? EH: All right. Both parents came from Poland. They lived in Warsaw and also in Lodz, Poland. My father was a baker and my mother, they were married in Poland. And they had a bakery with a retail shop in Warsaw. They both came from very large families. My mother and father left Poland and came to New York City. GE: About when? EH: Let's see, about 1912. My father worked in a very large bakery in New York, and he didn't like being an employee. I think he made seven dollars a week. He said that he wasn't going to work for seven dollars a week because he made more than that when he left Poland. So he bought a bakery in Long Island, and he built it up, and he sold it and moved to Connecticut. And then he bought another bakery there, built it up and sold that. And then he moved to Allentown. He always followed where bakeries were being sold and where he thought they had a good potential. And he bought a bakery at 9th and Liberty, called Long's Bakery, which I think is still there. I was the last of five children. I had two sisters and two brothers who were older than I. SC: What were your parents' full names? EH: My father's name was Abraham Waitz. My mother's name was Shaindel Sadie Waitz. My father, I don't know what kind of education they, he had, but he could read and write English, and read and write Hebrew, and he was a very successful business man for a foreigner who came here with, you know, not a lot of money. GE: How old were your parents when they came, when they came here? EH: When they came here, my mother was pregnant with my oldest brother. He was born-- he was conceived in Europe and born here. And when they arrived in New York, he was born in December and I think they arrived in September. So shortly thereafter. My mother told me that she hired a melamed. You know what a melamed is? A melamed is the Hebrew word for teacher, because in her family, they only educated the boys, but she wanted an education. So when she went to work, she hired a melamed to teach her how to read and write. So she was literate. They came here and I remember it-- Oh, after Allentown, my father sold the place at 9th and Liberty and built a place at 2nd and-- on 2nd Street. No. On Front Street near- built a bakery there. And he really prospered there because I think it was during the Depression and people couldn't afford much more than bread. So bread, you know, was a big seller in the food industry. However, my mother didn't like the area down there. SC: And was that part of the community? EH: Yes, there was a big Jewish community on Front and 2nd Street -- 2nd Street was really the heart of the Jewish community. 2nd and Tilghman, 2nd and Allen. And there were a lot of pool halls down there. And my brother was about 15, 16, and my mother didn't like him hanging around the pool halls. So she urged my father to find another bakery. So he moved to Fullerton -- I was about five years old -- and built a really big bakery. And they had a lot of trucks and trucks would go out and sell door to door, bread, door to door, like they were milkmen. There were also bakers that sold. And they sold to a lot of mom-and-pop grocery stores. There were no big markets then. I-- from the time I was five, I lived in Fullerton, which is- I don't know if you know where that is. It's a suburb of Allentown, it's north of Allentown. It was out in the country. We were the only Jewish family in that whole community. But my mother was happy. The element was very definitely all Pennsylvania Dutch. And if you came from anywhere but Allentown or Fullerton, you were an outsider. You were a foreigner. GE: Were you considered foreigners or the fact that you were from Allentown...? EH: No. If you weren't Pennsylvania Dutch, you- GE: Were a foreigner, okay, that's what I thought. EH: Okay. But, you know, we got along well with my neighbors. I was the only Jewish kid in grade school as well as high school. But two-- a sister and a brother preceded me so-- but I got along fine. There was no outward anti-Semitism. I had a lot of friends. I, I was never bullied or hassled or-- I was very popular and I fit in very well, although I- late in my teens, [no], early in my teens I started making Jewish friends. But I went to my high school, I went to Whitehall High School and I went to Moravian and I graduated from Moravian. I married my first husband. GE: Excuse me, Moravian -- did you go to Moravian College? EH: It was a women's college. It was only a women's college. SC: You didn't go to the academy, though? EH: No. The Academy was high school. I went to Whitehall's High School -- public school. But I went to Moravian and graduated my-- as a English and History Major, and with teaching qualifications. SC: May I stop you here? Do you mind if we turn off the TV? EH: Oh yeah, not at all. [cross chatter, irrelevant to interview] EH: -- too detailed? SC: No, not at all. GE: Not at all. EH: I think it might be boring. SC: No. The more detail you can give, the better. So let me just take you back for one minute. What was your mother's maiden name? Do you know? EH: It was Ostrovesky. SC: Can you spell that? EH: Yeah. O-S-T-R-O-V-E-S-K-Y. SC: And her family was from Warsaw? EH: Her family was from- first from Pinchov which is P-I-N-C-H-O-T. O-V? O-V or O-T. Pinchov. It was this very small shtetl. And then they moved, I think to Lodz, which was a big community, and my mother worked there in a knitting- she told me, in a knitting factory. They made caps- hats, knitted caps. And then she met my father and they married there, and then moved to Warsaw, which was even a bigger community then. Lodz was a textile community. SC: So it's in your blood a little. EH: Well, by marriage only. Bakery -- the baking business is our business. Okay so where [was I]? SC: You graduated from Moravian. EH: I graduated from Moravian. GE: And you know what? Actually, I'm sorry. One other question. You said that you started meeting- making some Jewish friends, were they people from the Allentown community? EH: Yes, I would go into the Jewish Community Center, at 6th and Chew Street. And there were a lot of, you know, teenager groups. And we did a lot of things as groups in those days. SC: And did you meet your husband there? EH: Yes, my first husband. His name was Marvin Goldberg. And I, well, I married my junior year in- I married him my junior year in college. And four years later, I had my oldest son, Richard. Richard- GE: I'm sorry. Your husband, your first husband, what was his first name? EH: Marvin. GE: Marvin. EH: He was also an Allentonian. And Richard lives across the street from me. SC: Oh, that's nice. EH: Yeah. Okay, so where are we? SC: Your first husband, what business was he in? EH: Um, let's see. He was originally an X-ray technician -- when I married him, he- that's what he was doing in New York. And later, he- I think he worked for his parents for a while. They had a delicatessen in Allentown. All right. So we're now-- GE: So he was working and living in New York City? EH: When I married, when I married him. GE: Right, so did you go to New York City? EH: No, he came back. This little girl didn't want to leave Allentown! I was pretty sheltered, I must say, after being the youngest of five children. GE: So he moved back to Allentown, and he worked in his parents' deli. EH: Yeah, he did that, and I think he also did other jobs. I think maybe in the textile industry. I think he worked for Mishkin for a while. Al Mishkin -- they're cousins by the way. They're first cousins. And let's see, where am I? SC: Let's see, your oldest son. How many children? EH: He has four children. He married his college sweetheart and had four children. And he came into, let's see -- do you want to know his statistics? He-- no, not too much. GE: I don't think he. . . SC: Yeah. And do you have any other children? EH: Yes. I subsequently married Bernie Halperin and it was the Halperin family that worked in the textile business. He was in it. He was-- he manufactured, had a clothing factory in Slatington. In the interim, I taught at the Jewish Community Center in the . . . as a nursery school teacher for about seven years, and I did a little teaching for the Jewish Day School, too. SC: Did your first husband pass away or did you divorce? EH: We divorced. My second husband passed away. GE: How long were you married to Marvin Goldberg? EH: I think about 10 years. SC: And did you have any other children together? EH: Just one. SC: Just Richard. And then you taught at . . . EH: I taught at the Jewish Community Center, and the reason I did that, I didn't go into public schools, was I wanted to have the same holidays off. Ricky was going to the Jewish Day School and I didn't want to leave him with babysitters, and they weren't that available, so I chose some institution where I would have the same holidays off and I could, you know, be with him. So I taught there for seven years, although I was really overqualified, I felt it was important that I raise my child myself. SC: So when did you meet. . . .? EH: Oh, I got a Masters too, in the interim. In-- I got a Master of Science in Education from Temple University after oh, I don't know how many years -- Ricky was about six I think, or seven when I, you know, did get my Masters. Okay, now where are we? SC: Then you met Mr. Halperin? EH: Yes, we married. And we weren't married very long before he died. Yeah. And I, I was now-- had a 12 year old and a new baby, Jonathan, and I, I didn't see myself-- How do I go back to teaching public school and leaving two children now? So I chose to go up, although I knew not a thing about the garment industry, I said I see other people in this industry with less talent than I have, so maybe I can make it. So I went up with fresh eyes and I, took me a while because, you know, it took me a year to just adjust myself. But I became very successful there. I guess, fresh eyes and I had a lot of obstacles, but I overcame them. SC: And this was in Slatington with the Halperin family? EH: Not the Halperin family, they had nothing to do with it. It was my husband's factory. He started that factory with one of the Senderowitzs. GE: This is Bernie started it. EH: Bernie. He started that, I don't know what year. I honestly can't remember what year. I have a plaque somewhere. GE: But is this around 1950? 1950 is around when I assume. is Richard about 60? EH: Yes. GE: Okay, so that's around 1950, '51, '52. Right? Around '52. Did Bernie already have the factory? EH: No, it was around. . . .Jonathan was born in '64, so I took over after. Late '64, early '65. GE: And how long did the factory already. . . . was it-? EH: It was there a long time, over twenty years probably. GE: Oh so he and Senderowitz . . . EH: He had been married before. GE: Right. So he and Senderowitz were already in this business for twenty years. EH: No, Senderowitz left the business, and it was my husband's. He bought- they were partners, I think my husband bought him out, and then it was only... But the original name was Halsen, in which was Halperin and Senderowitz. SC: And where was that factory located? EH: In Slatington. SC: It was in Slatington. EH: Yeah. When I took over, there were about 85 people working there. Well it was a pretty daunting -- it was pretty daunting to even think about running it. But I learned fast and my sheltered life was far from sheltered. GE: And Esther, this is around 1965. right? EH: Right. GE: So just to make sure that I understand correctly: So Bernie and one of the Senderowitzs, they started the factory maybe 20 years earlier. But in the meantime, Bernie . . . Senderowitz left, and Bernie- EH: Bernie married. GE: Bernie had bought him out. EH: He had a marriage which was dissolved. GE: Right. And it was just maybe- how many years do you think he was in it himself? Just the last few years? EH: That I can't tell you. I have no idea when they parted. GE: Okay, so this is around 1965, you found yourself being a widow, two children, and you decided to take over, go into the business. EH: Right, right. GE: Okay, great. And there were about eighty-five workers. EH: Then, right. SC: And what did they produce? EH: Well they- the factory produced ladie's slacks, shorts, skirts and bathing suits. We were non-union -- he tried very hard to keep away from the union. Most of the plants in Allentown were unionized, but I soon found that I couldn't get big contracts from non-union places, so I decided it was best if I would unionize because, unless you were a union factory, then ILGWU -- you couldn't get the big runs on styles. So I walked into Ike Gordon's ILG- I don't know if you ever heard that name. GE: I know ILGWU. EH: Right, well he was the head of the union. I walked in and said, "I'd like you to unionize my factory." He almost dropped dead. And he said, "Are you sure, Esther?" I said, "I'm totally sure." "Are you positive?" I said, "I am totally positive." "Well, why?" I said, "Because I need big manufacturers like Bobby Brooks." And oh, I'm trying to think-- Bobby Brooks. I'm trying to think who the other- but really big manufacturers could give me a big lots to sew. So we were just sewing contractors. And the only way you could make any money was if you weren't changing your styles constantly, having to teach the girls new methods. And then I put in a lot of work aids, which most other factories didn't do. GE: Say that again -- a lot of what? EH: Work aids for the sewing machine operators. GE: And what does a work aid do, what does it mean? EH: Well, in other words, I would have on their machines automatic cutters that would cut the thread instead of them picking up a scissors and having to cut it and then- So I pursued that area and I became pretty well-automated throughout the factory because I felt that was the wave of the future. You could only get them to produce more if they were able to produce more. And I was one of the first in the area to do that, to highly-automate the factory. SC: Did that change your work clientele? Ethnically or- EH: No. The clientele- SC: Meaning the operators. EH: Oh no, they were all the same operators -- or I. . . there was constant turnover in the industry. Yeah, Some would go, some would come back, some would get pregnant, Some would come back. There was a constant turnover. But I am I- I really studied the whole thing and I decided where I could make us- how I could make a success of this. In fact, I produced more out of my factory with X amount of girls than most factories in the area did. And the union came in and they audited my books and stayed and watched the production maybe for three or four days because they thought I was cooking the books because I was, I was producing more than anybody else. GE: Your productivity was very high. EH: Yeah. And they thought I- so I opened the books and I said, "stay here and watch, see what I'm doing." And they stayed four days and then they left. But I must admit that probably because I was a novice and didn't do things the way they were always done, that I was successful in this business. So I looked for change and I got it and I really liked what I was doing very, very much. And I did a lot of physical work myself. I had two kids to support and instead of having a lot of middle management, I was top management and lots of times middle management. So I physically worked on the as well as ran the business. SC: Which historically- EH: Was not the way it was. SC: No, but the people who did stay involved in the business and didn't farm out the middle, management jobs really do better because- GE: Well you're in touch. SC: You're in touch with everything. EH: Oh yeah, I saw what the problems were. I managed the finishing department, which was the inspecting, the pressing, the hanging and bagging and the tail end of the- I managed that floor as well as running the business. SC: So you had your hands on quality control? EH: I did. Yeah, as well as going up and sort of supervising my supervisor upstairs. I really worked very hard. I walked- worked sometimes 12 hours a day. SC: Did you have only one shift or did you have more than one shift? EH: I used to have two shifts, but I soon found it wasn't very productive and I stopped. Then I only did one shift. SC: Where did you workers come from? Did they come mostly-? EH: That area -- Slatington, Palmerton, Walnutport. That whole area. SC: And were they more of, ethnically, Pennsylvania Dutch or Eastern European? EH: They were a mixture, yeah, they were a mixture. Mostly there were a lot of Welsh in that area and a lot of Pennsylvania Dutch, a lot, and some Slovish or, you know, Polish and Slavic groups. And it wasn't easy. They didn't like having a woman boss in the beginning. GE: Did that- did that then get better? EH: Well my mechanic -- the mechanic said he didn't know whether he could work for a woman. So I said, "Give it a try. " SC: Was he Pennsylvania Dutch? I shouldn't have asked that. GE: Did the women also give you a hard time or was it more the men? EH: Well, we only had two men. One was a shipper and one was a mechanic. Then Ricky came into the business and he was the industrial engineer. No, I think women sort of resented it in the beginning, too, because most factories had men as the head of the- But, you know, I made very good friends with them. I was their financier, and you know, when they needed money, I would give them my own money. And sometimes I'd get it back, sometimes I didn't. I had to hear all their stories, but I had a lot of empathy for them. I really felt... Pretty horrible because I felt their work was dehumanizing and I- they sat there like a robot all day long and did the same thing, did the same operation, and it was hard work. GE: Absolutely. EH: And I was sensitive to that. And I tried not to be an exploiter. I did everything I could to make life as easy for them -- I air conditioned the place, I put in a system that would clean the air so they weren't breathing all the dust and the lint from- So I did the best to make their workplace comfortable and healthy. I did. And I did empathize with the fact that that was the only way they could make a living. I did. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Esther Halperin, July 17th, 2012
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Esther Halperin talks about how she became a successful sewing contractor due to financial necessity. Esther’s husband died suddenly, leaving her with two children to support. Esther decided to operate her husband’s factory in Slatington even though at the time she knew nothing about the business. As a woman owner back in the early 1960s, she faced many obstacles-- from employees who didn’t want to work for a woman, to customers who didn't want to buy from a woman. Esther persevered and conquered these challenges to run a successful sewing contracting business for about twenty-five years.
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LVTNT-16
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2012-07-17
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
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Martin Goldstein
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5.4 July 16, 2013 Martin Goldstein, July 16, 2013 LVTNT-03 1:33:33 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Martin Goldstein Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 GoldsteinMartin_20130716 1.0:|29(2)|56(14)|77(11)|102(3)|119(10)|134(12)|155(2)|182(9)|201(10)|220(14)|243(15)|264(2)|281(12)|296(3)|313(10)|338(10)|359(11)|380(11)|401(2)|420(6)|449(14)|474(3)|499(8)|518(2)|535(5)|562(4)|587(7)|608(4)|635(4)|650(8)|673(7)|692(7)|709(15)|730(17)|757(13)|780(19)|799(4)|816(16)|839(5)|864(5)|885(3)|902(6)|919(8)|942(15)|967(6)|984(5)|1009(6)|1032(10)|1059(9)|1078(11)|1097(16)|1116(2)|1137(15)|1160(17)|1187(4)|1210(3)|1239(10)|1260(8)|1277(16)|1304(15)|1337(5)|1356(16)|1385(3)|1406(2)|1433(8)|1454(7)|1479(4)|1498(13)|1529(15)|1552(9)|1573(5)|1600(13)|1629(6)|1654(12)|1683(13)|1706(14)|1743(8)|1764(7)|1801(7)|1826(6)|1855(11)|1878(9)|1899(2)|1918(11)|1945(4)|1962(2)|1985(8)|2014(11)|2041(3)|2080(2)|2119(4)|2150(5)|2191(5)|2202(4) 0 https://youtu.be/FV3g13IKz5U YouTube video 0 Introduction—Martin Goldstein SC: Today is July 16th, and this is an interview with Martin Goldstein, and interviewers are Susan Clemens-Bruder first, and then Gail Eisenberg, on the Garment and Textile Industries. And I might be asking you some questions that seem sort of as if I should know the answers or whatever, but for the future, that’s why we want to get everything down on the- on the tape.
 ; 
 ; MG: Yes, I understand.
 ; 
 ; SC: First of all I’d like to have you put yourself in your own personal content. What’s your full name?
 ; 
 ; MG: Martin Goldstein.
 ; 
 ; SC: Okay. And where and when were you born?
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 ; MG: I was born in New York, in 19- in August 22nd, 1925.
 ; 
 ; SC: Oh. And where in New York? What- Do you remember your address?
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 ; MG: Yes, yes I do—only because my mother kept talking about it. Martin Goldstein, let’s see, 555 Green Avenue, Brooklyn, New York. 0 74 Martin's Education in Allentown, PA SC: So you lived there, what was your educational history?
 ; 
 ; MG: I graduated high school. 
 ; 
 ; SC: Okay. Where did you go to elementary school, junior high school, and high school?
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 ; MG: I went- I went to Raub Junior High School and then Allentown High School, and that’s- that was the extent of my education. 0 93 1927: Family Moves from Brooklyn, NY to Allentown, PA to Work at Arcadia Knitting Mills SC: When did you move to Allentown from Brooklyn?
 ; 
 ; MG: Well let’s see, I was born in [1925]—1927.
 ; 
 ; SC: So your family moved. Did they- Did they move to change businesses? Did they move for another reason? To join family?
 ; 
 ; MG: They moved- They moved because the- the business- they had a job- They had a job at Arcadia Knitting Mills. And they were five brothers, and they decided that is was- They had quite a business, and they decided that it would be better to build in Allentown, where labor was cheaper. So they moved- Came- They came here—I guess that’s- I guess that’s in... They built- They built the Arcadia Knitting Mill at 8th and Pittston St. It’s an L-shaped building, which still stands today—five stories high. 0 165 Martin's Education (cont'd) SC: So you went, first of all, to elementary school here? You were two when you moved?
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 ; MG: Yes.
 ; 
 ; SC: And- And would you repeat what elementary school you went to?
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 ; MG: I went to Raub Junior High School, and then went to Allentown High School, at that time. It’s Allen today, but Allentown at that time. 
 ; 
 ; SC: And did you have a particular interest in high school?
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 ; MG: No, I just the regular- the regular general curricula- curriculum.
 ; 
 ; SC: Did you do any educational work beyond high school?
 ; 
 ; MG: No, nothing else. 0 205 Early Work Experiences SC: And also, where have you worked from the- your very first job, whether it was a paperboy or whatever, your very first job all through your life?
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 ; MG: Very first job was when—before the malls—I worked at the- the- for example hat stores. You know, the old lady hat stores? Not old lady—ladies hat stores. 
 ; 
 ; SC: In olden times?
 ; 
 ; MG: In olden times, right. And just like a stock boy, I made—you’re going to laugh—it’s maybe 18-20 cents an hour, that was good at that time.
 ; 
 ; SC: Do you remember how old you were when you started working there?
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 ; MG: I was probably 16.
 ; 
 ; SC: And after working there, when did you leave the hat store?
 ; 
 ; MG: Oh from there, let me see—what did I do? I worked at like an upholstery place—Lang’s Upholstery—for some time, and over there- Well there was different odd jobs, and I did different things, it’s all depended. 0 470 Family History So can I ask you some questions about your own family background? So what do you know about your parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents, any- as far back as you know? Where they were born?
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 ; MG: Well my father- my father was born in Russia and my mother in Poland.
 ; 
 ; GE: And their names?
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 ; MG: And their names were Morris and Sarah. I believe what he did—see, this is some of the—I believe he moved, he must have moved to Poland later on, and he was with my- He met my mother at about the age of 14. 
 ; 
 ; SC: So they relocated from Russia to Poland.
 ; 
 ; MG: And she was- Yeah. She was working in an ice cream parlor, and they courted for about 4 years, you know. He says, “I fell in love with her because she was always laughing. I’d introduce her to somebody,” he says, “and she walked away laughing. You just couldn’t- I just couldn’t- She was such a happy person.” Actually, that followed throughout her life. She was great among all of us—to help us out.
 ; 
 ; SC: Did they come to the United States together?
 ; 
 ; MG: Yes, they did. They were born—I don’t know how true it is—but they always said their birthday was April 20th, 1898. 0 977 Father & ; Uncle's Employments in the Arcadia Knitting Mills (cont'd) MG: The Reinharts asked my father and uncle to join them in the new building in Allentown. The Arcadia Knitting Mill became the second largest knitting mill in the US. The knitting mill in Pittston, NJ was the largest, so... It didn’t mean anything to them because they were workers, and that was before the Union. As you might expect, wages were low at the time. My father and uncle, both foreman, made 10 cents an hour more than the other workers. There were like I said no unions, so they paid what they wanted. But what he had- The good thing was that foremen were not laid off, so I never knew there was a- a Depression. You could understand to me there was always food on the table. I also knew because I heard them discuss the budget at the end of the week how we are going to make things go. But they always managed. And one thing he said we’re going to do was have a vacation. We went away to the mountains one year and the shore the next and it was always- There was always, always good times.
 ; 
 ; SC: So your dad was a foreman?
 ; 
 ; MG: Yeah, he was a foreman and my uncle was, too.
 ; 
 ; SC: Both of them. And were they foreman because of working so well in New York and then being invited down? 
 ; 
 ; MG: Right, that’s why they came, yeah, right. 0 1134 1940: End of Arcadia Knitting Mills MG: My dad and uncle received unemployment compensation after the business closed.
 ; 
 ; SC: When did it close?
 ; 
 ; MG: It closed, let me see, 1940- About 1940. For a couple of years they had a Victory Garden. You know? And it was time to get a job and they decided to go into the business.
 ; 
 ; SC: So during the war, they had a Victory Garden, during World War II?
 ; 
 ; MG: During the war, they had a Victory Garden. Before that the other people, you know, when you were laid off you had nothing—you had to go for, I forget, what was it called at the time? There was a name for that. 
 ; 
 ; SC: Well, it would be—not unemployment—insurance, at that time. 
 ; 
 ; MG: No, it wouldn’t be, it wouldn’t be. It’d be some kind of aid you’d get. A lot of people were ashamed of this, they figured this was wrong, yet there were no jobs. 0 1249 Family History (cont'd) SC: So, when—just back up, because we’ll go into the business- more of the business questions a little bit later, but to go back, do you know any other names in your family? Any names, your mother’s maiden name, grandparents on both sides?
 ; 
 ; MG: Well let's see, my father, Pop Morris, let’s see, he had- He was one of five children, all came to America, five children. There was Jeanette, May, Francis, and Al. 
 ; 
 ; SC: So that was your mother’s mother’s family?
 ; 
 ; MG: I know their Jewish names, too.
 ; 
 ; SC: Oh good.
 ; 
 ; MG: I don’t know if you need that.
 ; 
 ; SC: Sure, sure.
 ; 
 ; GE: This is your father, Morris. These are his siblings?
 ; 
 ; MG: Yeah, right. Morris’s name was Moshe, and Jeanette was Shandyl. May was Malkeh. M-A-L-K-E-H. And Francis was Frumeh, and Al was Avraham. It was Abraham, but at that time- 
 ; 
 ; GE: That’s the Yiddish name.
 ; 
 ; MG: At that time he tried not to- not to- He was in the gold business of some type. A gold portion studio, he made gold inlays and things like that. 0 2012 Martin's Relationship to the Jewish Community: Perspective on Change, Personal Involvement, and Encounters with Anti-Semitism SC: So what was the Jewish community like when you were young? And how has it changed over time?
 ; 
 ; MG: Well, first of all, there were- Most of the Jewish people knew each other pretty well. You knew all the Jewish people. It was, the Temple was small – we had a small Temple at 12th and Walnut St. And around 1950 they decided to build that temple, a big temple.
 ; 
 ; SC: Just for the record, what Temple was that? 
 ; 
 ; MG: Temple Beth El. 
 ; 
 ; SC: Yes. So you went to the old Temple Beth El?
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 ; MG: Yes, from a place that was like a twin house, for maybe a hundred whatever it was, it could hold a hundred people or so, to a, well, a very large temple. 
 ; 
 ; SC: Do you know the address of the original Temple?
 ; 
 ; MG: I would say 12th and Walnut Street, the corner of- 
 ; 
 ; SC: 12th and Walnut Street, at the corner. 
 ; 
 ; GE: So not 12th and Chew—12th and Walnut?
 ; 
 ; MG: 12th and Walnut, definitely 12th and Walnut. 
 ; 
 ; SC: And then-
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 ; MG: Right down the street was the Funeral Home—Bachman, Bachman Funeral Home. At the time, there were no other Jewish funeral people, you know. So that’s where- He took care of the burials. 0 2972 Growing Freedom and Integration of the Jewish Community in the Broader Allentown Community SC: You mentioned a little bit how the Jewish community has changed over time, being more cohesive in the early years, and then maybe even more tight now but in a different way. But has it changed in any other way?
 ; 
 ; MG: I think in general that people are freer today than before so I don’t think you’re defensive like you had to be in those days. I belong to the Mora Club, Men of Retirement Age, and I may be the only Jewish person, probably the only Jewish person who ever worked there- that ever joined. But it’s a nice organization, men and any- I feel- I feel comfortable around the Christian people as well as- and I think that’s pretty much the norm today. It was different then. See it’s- It’s not acceptable today. 0 3050 Goldstein Family's Relationship with other Jewish Families in the Community SC: [W]hat families were you friendly with in the Jewish community? Like the Mishkins?
 ; 
 ; MG: Families I- Like I said, my mother and dad, and my aunt and uncle were pretty much- They went out together. A good time was a Saturday night movie, you know, that’s what you did. Every week. It was fifty cents—it was probably cheaper in the early years, it was less than that. And the way- What they did- What we did at weekends, now that I think of it, went on picnics. My mother would pack up a cooler, you know, with all the sandwiches and all the- My- My mother, my father, my sisters, and their husbands, in the early years, and some of them, before they had children, and sometimes after they had children. They were all small. We would go to Cedar Beach or- Not Cedar Beach, Lehigh Parkway a lot. Yeah. And picniced. We’d get a table early and that- that- that was it. That’s a good time.
 ; 
 ; SC: Did- As you got older, and- and in the decades since the ‘80s, have you been friendly with different families yourself?
 ; 
 ; MG: Me? Well I had a friend- I was pretty- I wasn’t really a big social bug. I was very interested in the Friendship Circle in recent years, I mean the last 15 years or so, and that seems to be one of my big interests. And I always enjoyed going to the Center and being around people. 
 ; 
 ; SC: So were there any specific families-?
 ; 
 ; MG: The friend- The friend actually- Like I said my mom and dad, aunt and uncle, they were together all the time. And I don’t think they looked for any outside, too much of that. So we didn’t- They didn’t socialize in- like some people do. It was pretty much private. But myself, I had a friend, Irvin Jacobson, for many years. And we were together, we went around, we went whatever it was, on vacation in different places. 0 3220 Walgo Knitting Mills: ~1946-1972 GE: Okay so now what we are going to do is talk a little bit about the business. And if I understand correctly, and you tell me, I think you said it was around 1943, right, that your dad and his brother-in-law went into the business. So do you want to just tell me whatever you know about that, around 1943. So it was your dad, Morris, and what’s his brother-in-law’s name again?
 ; 
 ; MG: Joseph- Joseph- Joe Wald.
 ; 
 ; GE: Walz. W-A-L- How do you spell his last name?
 ; 
 ; SC: D-S?
 ; 
 ; MG: W-a-l-d.
 ; 
 ; GE: Wald. W-A-L-D. Okay. And so the two of them had been already working for many years as foremen at Arcadia, and now they went into their own business.
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 ; MG: They went into their own business. 0 3310 Struggling Businesses Post-WWII MG: Walgo Knitting Mills. They went- They went on- They went to New York for business, but when they went into business, at that time... it was- it was- the picnic was over. This is what they were told when they went to New York. Forget about the old people, people that had ran the business years ago, had nothing, gotten- During the war, they were making money like- They get very wealthy, that’s it, because there was no price- You could work for almost any price you wanted.
 ; 
 ; GE: Right, the demand was so high.
 ; 
 ; MG: The demand was so high, it was- it was- it was big. But people didn’t have the machines. They were making war machines and everything else so everything stopped, other people went into the service, they just- they just didn’t have it. But after the war, it stopped almost immediately, because people started to produce and then the price was low and if you were a contractor like my father, they would go there and all, and they always said, they used the expression, “Suck on a herring.” That means this is all I can give you. 0 3441 Working as a "Contractor" in the Textile and Needle-Trade Industry GE: And when you say they were a “contractor”, tell us a little bit more what that means. 
 ; 
 ; MG: A contractor means you don’t buy the- you don’t buy- you don’t make the goods, you sell it—you do it for somebody else. You’re making- You make a- Someone will send you the yarn, instead of you buying the yarn, they will send it in—and say I need 5,000 lbs. on such and such a machine, and- or they could send in 50,000 lbs. And you made different things, you made cotton knit goods, like flat goods—t-shirts, stripes, like you’re wearing right there. And then there is also rib cloth, which is the underwear cloth, on the- on the ribbed machines, and that ran on a cable. There was- Each machine was on a belt run by a big motor and it ran on a long line of machines, old-fashioned machines. Later on there were people who went in and bought individual machines. But at that time, they ran on the old style belt machines. 0 3672 Contracting for Seco Mills GE: Do you know who their customer was, who they were a contractor for?
 ; 
 ; MG: Only too well. They had- They got connected with Seco Mills, S-E-C-O, and they were a big- These guys were two big, two salesmen, you know, and they ran a pretty good operation. But they had enough work to keep you busy. And my uncle, instead of being a little bit of a gambler and going with maybe less work and harder to find work, but could advance you a lot better, a little easier, they didn’t take that route and they stuck with the big guy, and the big guy never paid because he’s always giving- he says, “You always got work, you don’t have to worry.” You know what I mean? Keep the- Keep the machines running.
 ; 
 ; GE: Right, I see. So it was a very, very small margin you’re saying. They always kept the price low.
 ; 
 ; MG: Right, they didn’t pay- They didn’t pay enough, they squeezed you on that, because you got the work. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Right, right. There was always work, but- but-
 ; 
 ; MG: So my uncle was one of the ones- always the one who insisted, “Stay with them, you’ll always have work, you have to work.” Well okay. 0 3755 Martin's Father and Uncle—Partnership and Responsibilities GE: And with your father and your uncle, which one took care of what part of the business? Did they always work together with decisions or-?
 ; 
 ; MG: Actually, my uncle ran- he ran the office and then he ran certain machines. My dad ran Tompkins machines, which is a special machine, it’s made for baby- good for like terry cloth and soft goods like baby cloth. It’s a very fine type of machine. Not- Very, very few people in Allentown used the Tompkins machines. But they bought them and my father took care of them.
 ; 
 ; GE: So they were kind of specialized? The Tompkins, it was like a special-
 ; 
 ; MG: Well that was special—different than most people made. First of all it was a slow producer and they never wanted to pay the amount of money because it was, you know- Even though everything is relative, if it takes longer to make you got to get paid more. But if you’re a manufacturer, you can call the price a little better. You know. But it’s- Anyway, that’s contracting, and we always- we made a decent living, we were able to...
 ; 
 ; GE: And so they were in business for how long? 
 ; 
 ; MG: Oh my God. They were-
 ; 
 ; GE: They started around 1946-47, how long did they keep the business until?
 ; 
 ; MG: Maybe 35 years or so. 0 3885 Changing Addresses to Inexpensively Expand Production Capacity at Walgo MG: They borrowed money from the bank and bought two knitting machines. The mill was in operation twenty-four hours.
 ; 
 ; GE: Oh. So they were- They were around the clock?
 ; 
 ; MG: Each partner alternating twelve-hour shifts, and without making too much money, because how much could you produce? But, that’s what they did. And the machines knitted flat goods used for t-shirts, striped and plain. Offered a little more space by Mr. Lang, they purchased rib machines, used mostly for underwear.
 ; 
 ; GE: So- so they rented space by- from Mr. Lang initially?
 ; 
 ; MG: Yes, you’re right, the upholstery place. Naturally, needing more space for yarn, the basement which was partially dirt filled, Mr. Lang offered to give it- the place rent free if you dig it out. So he was good, he did them a favor, he did them a favor. So we hired a guy, he wheelbarrowed all the dirt out, then hauled it away, got rid of it. 
 ; 
 ; GE: And now they had it, rent free.
 ; 
 ; MG: They had it rent free for the yarn, because it was small and the amount they could handle- They used to tell them, used to tell the- the- the contractor- the boss- the manufacturer not to send in too much yarn. 0 4160 Employees/Unions GE: How many people worked there, about?
 ; 
 ; MG: Oh my God. Sometimes it’s been- In that place they had about 60, 65, 70 people.
 ; 
 ; GE: Okay. And that was let's say at the peak.
 ; 
 ; MG: Yeah. The last move- Well around the clock. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Right right right, that’s right.
 ; 
 ; MG: But they all- They ran twelve-hour shifts for a lot of the people—the better knitters. Because you don’t have to keep people and pay overtime for people that aren’t producing like those that are able to better- do more. You know, handle more machines. Anyway, a good knitter- They got paid not quite what Union wages were, but they got twelve hours. So when the Union came in with the idea of unionizing, naturally, that’s what their- They’d come in real early and get the workers before they got in the door—there was a lot of unrest. Because the- Those that wanted the Union were probably a lesser able to do some of the work. Anyway, they fought it off and they never had a Union. 0 4272 Martin's Role at Walgo Knitting Mills GE: Okay. And Martin, what were- what did you do in the- in their business?
 ; 
 ; MG: I was in the shipping.
 ; 
 ; GE: You were in shipping. Okay, okay.
 ; 
 ; MG: Yeah, I was in shipping, receiving and shipping, and I never had enough help. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Yeah, well I think that’s how it goes!
 ; 
 ; MG: That’s how it goes. Never had enough help. 0 4292 1972: Walgo Knitting Mills is Sold to George Krasnov MG: So the last move was at 201 East Hamilton Street, the last move, before it was sold in 1972 to George Krasnov.
 ; 
 ; GE: Okay, so it was sold in 1972. So they were in the business it sounds like about 25 years? Does that sound about right?
 ; 
 ; MG: Could be, yeah, yeah, yeah. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Because they started a little bit after WWII and went to 1972.
 ; 
 ; MG: Right. George Krasnov, a former partner of Surefit Slipcovers.
 ; 
 ; GE: Okay, so he- So, so- So George Krasnov, did he leave Surefit, or did this become part of Surefit?
 ; 
 ; MG: No there was a- There was a- The father died and then you know there’s children and children’s children, so what happened, they broke up and he was left out. And I guess there was some kind of payout, but they never spoke. There was a lot of very- In a business, that’s what happens. 0 4399 Goldstein and Wald Family Members Work for New Owner of Walgo Knitting Mills Until the Business Fails MG: My father, my dad, uncle, and myself worked for George after he bought it. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Wait a minute, did you say- Your father? Oh, yeah. You, your father, and your uncle all worked for Goerge for a while, I see. 
 ; 
 ; MG: Well that was because- When he bought it, when George bought it. Now what happened- My uncle was loafing around—you wouldn’t believe it. He was okay in the beginning but then he sort of didn’t care. Well, I said to my father, “George is not going to take this.” So what happened? He laid him off. He thought that my father would go too, but it didn’t happen that way. My father was running these Tompkins machines, and it was a good thing at the time. Anyway, my uncle stayed for two years, my dad for three, and me for five years, until he closed- And he had to close because of poor business. He called me in the office and he was crying and he said that I’d have to give it up. He says, “I’m sorry, but…” They- He had some good years. 0 4490 Martin Runs the "Matching Machine" at a Firm that Makes Suits GE: So did you retire at that time? When- when-
 ; 
 ; MG: No, I didn’t retire. Oh yeah, when he closed it. 
 ; 
 ; GE: When he closed.
 ; 
 ; MG: Yeah, but then I- Then I was- Then I went to different textile places.
 ; 
 ; GE: So you continued to do shipping?
 ; 
 ; MG: I continued . . not shipping, no, no, I did different things. I was upstairs, I helped with the spreading and different things, and- But the- the people- People were in trouble, the business wasn’t good. So finally I went to a workshop, like a training place, it was on Union Boulevard, I forgot the name of it. 
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 ; GE: Was this a- Was this a training place for people from textiles or just a training place for-
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 ; MG: I think a training place for different work. 0 4770 Relationship Between Owners and Employees of Walgo Knitting Mills GE: How did you feel the relationship was between the workers and the owners?
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 ; MG: That’s- They were- They were- I would say not bad. It was- I couldn’t say they were terrible. They often came and complained. I often heard about it. Things you know that- “This is the worst place to work.” I say, “Any place you work is the worst place.” I told- That’s what I told them. “I worked,” I said, “in other places, too.”
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 ; GE: How do you- So now- Just like you said, a lot of this has disappeared, you know, textiles, there is no more in this area.
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 ; MG: Well price-wise they were- 
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 ; GE: Right, they went to cheaper labor.
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 ; MG: Priced out. That’s what everything happened here. That’s why there is no manufacturing here. What happened with the automobile industry? They’re still doing business. 0 4855 How the Disappearance of the Textile and Needle-Trade Industries Have Impacted the Lehigh Valley and Its Communities GE: How do you think that has affected first the Jewish community, the local Jewish community, and second just the Allentown community?
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 ; MG: Well I think the Jewish community, where before, a young fella knew where he was going to go—so he went off and went to school, and then joined the business, or went right into the business. And he had a good living, because they were thriving, you know, one way or another they were doing pretty well. A lot of them were manufacturers, so they did very well—like Schneider Manufacturer. Irwin Schneider—they had a wonderful business—sewing plant, they had 100 machines, they were unionized. It didn’t matter. They were manufacturers. If you’re union, you know it’s- it’s not always- the union is not going to kill everybody.
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 ; GE: So for the Jewish community, you’re saying, there was a lot of certainty then? That- That it was something that was clear.
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 ; MG: Yeah they had a way- They had a way- A direction to go. And then later on, I guess, for Jewish people, it wasn’t the- the only way out. They went to school, they got a good education, they became doctors, they became engineers, their- Education-wise, that’s- that’s how they did it. 
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 ; GE: Right, right. Good point, right.
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 ; MG: Yeah and what happened, naturally, in the downtown where I originally said I worked Saturdays, changed, became... They opened up malls. In the downtown, every store that was downtown—Williams, Brytes [?], those were the dress shops and hat stores—became- Well, they were closed. And big stores opened up in the malls—department stores. So the little guy was out, the corner store was out, the little guy was- the supermarkets. I’m old enough to see it all. 0 5215 Why the Jewish People Were Over-Represented in the Textile and Needle-Trade Industries GE: [T]he Jews in general were somewhat over-represented in textiles? You know many when they came here worked in textiles. Why do you think that is?
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 ; MG: Well, they came over here carrying machines. 
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 ; GE: Right but why- but why- Did they come over here, did your family come over carrying machines?
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 ; MG: No, they didn’t do any of that. With these I’m talking about sewing machines. If you went into manufacturing at that time, if you wanted a job and had a machine, especially if you did it, it was different!
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 ; GE: You could do it I guess even in your little apartment or-
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 ; MG: Well- Well- You could do it even in their place. That’s right—even in their place. And I think today, believe it not, there are Syrians.
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 ; GE: That’s what I hear.
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 ; MG: You heard that? They have little spots and they’re contracting at a- They have no overhead. So they can- they can make the stuff at a- And guess what? I think the government knows about it and they won’t even bother them. They are off the street, they’re not collecting unemployment. And if they are, they get double. We had a guy who did that and the- the- the unemployment agency came in and took him right off the job.
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 ; GE: So what do you think made the textile industry appealing to the Jewish immigrants?
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 ; MG: I think it was easy, it was something you could- It was a lot of work. It was- And also, it looked like- I mean, I don’t know if I have the answer to that, but it looked like they were able to get started without too much trouble. They had the- They had the machine, they had the way to get in there. 0 5570 Goldstein Family Values SC: What did your family value most, your extended family? These are sort of filmy questions. These are thought questions.
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 ; MG: Live a clean, honest life, I think, is very very important. Not- My mother always told me, “Don’t come home with a policeman.” I said , “I’m safe once he takes me home, Mom.” She didn’t wanna see me come- come home with a policeman. That to her was… 
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 ; SC: That’s great. 0 MovingImage Martin Goldstein talks about how his father and uncle came to America with their families, initially worked in New York in a textile mill, then moved to Allentown to work at Arcadia Mills, a large knitting mill. Martin’s father and uncle were foreman at the factory. The mill operated 24 hours per day, each man was a foreman of a twelve hour shift. Then in the late 1940s, after World War II, Martin’s father and uncle started their own knitting mill named Walgo Knitting. They were contractors for Seco Mills until they sold the business in 1972. Interview with Martin Goldstein, July 16, 2013 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is July 16th, and this is an interview with Martin Goldstein, and interviewers are Susan Clemens-Bruder first, and then Gail Eisenberg, on the Garment and Textile Industries. And I might be asking you some questions that seem sort of as if I should know the answers or whatever, but for the future, that's why we want to get everything down on the- on the tape. MARTIN GOLDSTEIN: Yes, I understand. SC: First of all I'd like to have you put yourself in your own personal content. What's your full name? MG: Martin Goldstein. SC: Okay. And where and when were you born? MG: I was born in New York, in 19- in August 22nd, 1925. SC: Oh. And where in New York? What- Do you remember your address? MG: Yes, yes I do--only because my mother kept talking about it. Martin Goldstein, let's see, 555 Green Avenue, Brooklyn, New York. SC: Brooklyn. MG: That's- That's strange, I don't know how I remember that -- because she always talked about it. SC: So you lived there, what was your educational history? MG: I graduated high school. SC: Okay. Where did you go to elementary school, junior high school, and high school? MG: I went- I went to Raub Junior High School and then Allentown High School, and that's- that was the extent of my education. SC: When did you move to Allentown from Brooklyn? MG: Well let's see, I was born in [1925]--1927. SC: So your family moved. Did they- Did they move to change businesses? Did they move for another reason? To join family? MG: They moved- They moved because the- the business- they had a job- They had a job at Arcadia Knitting Mills. And they were five brothers, and they decided that is was- They had quite a business, and they decided that it would be better to build in Allentown, where labor was cheaper. So they moved- Came- They came here--I guess that's- I guess that's in... They built- They built the Arcadia Knitting Mill at 8th and Pittston St. It's an L-shaped building, which still stands today--five stories high. SC: So you went, first of all, to elementary school here? You were two when you moved? MG: Yes. SC: And- And would you repeat what elementary school you went to? MG: I went to Raub Junior High School, and then went to Allentown High School, at that time. It's Allen today, but Allentown at that time. SC: And did you have a particular interest in high school? MG: No, I just the regular- the regular general curricula- curriculum. SC: Did you do any educational work beyond high school? MG: No, nothing else. SC: And also, where have you worked from the- your very first job, whether it was a paperboy or whatever, your very first job all through your life? MG: Very first job was when--before the malls--I worked at the- the- for example hat stores. You know, the old lady hat stores? Not old lady--ladies hat stores. SC: In olden times? MG: In olden times, right. And just like a stock boy, I made--you're going to laugh--it's maybe 18-20 cents an hour, that was good at that time. SC: Do you remember how old you were when you started working there? MG: I was probably 16. SC: And after working there, when did you leave the hat store? MG: Oh from there, let me see--what did I do? I worked at like an upholstery place--Lang's Upholstery--for some time, and over there- Well there was different odd jobs, and I did different things, it's all depended. SC: Do you remember where Lang's was? Where it was located? MG: Yeah, he opened up a place at 6th and Lehigh Street. Yeah, that was- that was his place of business. SC: So after Lang's and some of the odd jobs that you did, do you remember any of the odd jobs that you did just to make money? MG: Yeah, I worked at- What was the name of that? "Allentown--" It just doesn't come to me, it doesn't come to me right away, I'm trying to get the name. Well anyway, what they did there, it was like a- It was also woodworking. They made- they made- they made- But more complete. They did I think what's called "American Houses." And over there, I did- I'm going a little blank, I don't know. SC: But it was a woodworking place? MG: Yeah, it was a woodworking place but they also had- I think they were making prefabricated homes. SC: Do you remember about what year that was? Just sort of general decade? MG: Let's see, about what- what year that was, let's see. 19- Probably-- Maybe in the late '30s, just about 1940 maybe. SC: And there- I think there were Sears houses- There are some Sears houses too in Allentown- MG: Sears? SC: Yeah, there were some prefab Sears houses in Allentown, too. MG: I don't know too much about that. SC: I don't think there's too many, but they are out in the West end of Allentown. MG: Right. SC: So any other jobs that you worked until you went into your family's business? MG: No, there were- I didn't- I didn't- I'm really not prepared on my own to tell you everything about myself. SC: That's fine, that's fine. Just, you know, if you remembered, it's fine, if not, don't worry. MG: I- We did have- I can't think, I can't think of that, I didn't prepare on that. SC: That's fine, that's fine. So can I ask you some questions about your own family background? So what do you know about your parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents, any- as far back as you know? Where they were born? MG: Well my father- my father was born in Russia and my mother in Poland. GAIL EISENBERG: And their names? MG: And their names were Morris and Sarah. I believe what he did--see, this is some of the--I believe he moved, he must have moved to Poland later on, and he was with my- He met my mother at about the age of 14. SC: So they relocated from Russia to Poland. MG: And she was- Yeah. She was working in an ice cream parlor, and they courted for about 4 years, you know. He says, "I fell in love with her because she was always laughing. I'd introduce her to somebody," he says, "and she walked away laughing. You just couldn't- I just couldn't- She was such a happy person." Actually, that followed throughout her life. She was great among all of us--to help us out. SC: Did they come to the United States together? MG: Yes, they did. They were born--I don't know how true it is--but they always said their birthday was April 20th, 1898. SC: Do you know about what year they left Poland, Russia, to come? MG: They came to this country--what do I have? Let's see. I think... Do I have it? No, that's when they were in Paris. No, that's when they were married ; this is when Libby was born and so forth. GE: Was Libby born here or there? MG: Libby was born there. GE: Okay, so it's after. MG: She was born- You got it, that's right, you're smart, you got it. She was born 1919. SC: Do you want to read that? Does that talk about your family background? MG: Yeah, I could. My parents, Morris- Morris... They courted, like I said, they courted in 1914, they were married 1918. Libby was born in 1919. Martin, I was born in 1925, and Gloria, 1931. So we're all 6 years apart. My mother, Sarah, told me that her father died when he was 28 years old. Her mother was pregnant with her at the time, so she never saw her father. So this was- So it goes on to say, "growing up without a father, mom's mother had to find work to support the family. So she sold milk, carrying a 5-gallon jug"--you can imagine, 5-gallon jug--"door to door, pouring out portions to each neighbor. My grandmother worked 'til noon, then she taught my mother how to sew. And they sewed 'til 12 o'clock at night." And my mother could use those- on those pedal machines, and she was so good that she could make almost anything. She taught her everything. She- Anybody, anything we wanted, she- we needed, she did for us. I didn't have to worry about shortening pants or whatever. SC: Was your grandmother's husband still alive or was she a widow also? And then- MG: My grandmother- Which grandmother? SC: Sarah's mother MG: Oh Sarah's mother- He was- She was- Yeah he died I think- Well I said he died. SC: At 28. MG: At 28, but she remarried, and they lived in New York for a few years. That's where they spent a lot of their time. Let's see, when did they come here? SC: In 1918, did you say? MG: No, 1919- They came here I would say about 19- 1921. SC: So it was your mother and her mother and the man that she married, another man that she married, before coming here? MG: Yeah, they came- Let me see. Okay, I got more of it. In 1921 my parents came to America. At that time you needed a sponsor to come to this country. The Morrison's, they were uncles of my father and family, and they were the sponsors for both my dad and my uncle and their families. A job at the knitting mill, working 12-hour nights was waiting for them in New York. A job, naturally, was required at that time or you couldn't come here. My mother, father, and sister, Libby came over as the boat- on the boat called the "The Lapland." Dr. Reinhart joined his four other brothers--he even gave up his practice because he was so enticed by the business. SC: Who was Dr. Reinhart? MG: Dr. Reinhart, believe it or not, he was the- One of 5 brothers who- who- who joined, like I said, joined the business now. He was, like I said, enticed by that-- they came here, they built that building at 8th and Pittston Streets. So in 1927, a large L-shaped, five stories building was built in Allentown. At present time, it's an apartment building. This was built by the Reinhart brothers from New York who came here because of cheaper labor. Let's see, what else? SC: And were the Reinhart's your dad's family? MG: No. SC: They were your mother's- That was your mother's- MG: Nobody, nobody, they were no relatives of ours. They were no relatives at all. They just got, you know, to get work, you came from the other country, you were just lucky to get any kind of work, so that's- They weren't educated. My father had just had, maybe, not any formal schooling -- or my mother. So, and that was common at that time. SC: And so after World War I, it was tighter, it was really harder to come here from Europe than it had been before World War I. MG: Well after World War I. Yes, yes. SC: Yeah, after World War I. So that makes so much sense, that you really- that they had to have sponsors, etc., and have a job. MG: The Reinharts asked my father and uncle to join them in the new building in Allentown. The Arcadia Knitting Mill became the second largest knitting mill in the US. The knitting mill in Pittston, NJ was the largest, so... It didn't mean anything to them because they were workers, and that was before the Union. As you might expect, wages were low at the time. My father and uncle, both foreman, made 10 cents an hour more than the other workers. There were like I said no unions, so they paid what they wanted. But what he had- The good thing was that foremen were not laid off, so I never knew there was a- a Depression. You could understand to me there was always food on the table. I also knew because I heard them discuss the budget at the end of the week how we are going to make things go. But they always managed. And one thing he said we're going to do was have a vacation. We went away to the mountains one year and the shore the next and it was always- There was always, always good times. SC: So your dad was a foreman? MG: Yeah, he was a foreman and my uncle was, too. SC: Both of them. And were they foreman because of working so well in New York and then being invited down? MG: Right, that's why they came, yeah, right. SC: Did they ever go beyond foreman in that business? MG: No. You mean personally? SC: Personally, the two of them. MG: Yeah. They, that's- that's- Let me see, do I have--? They were unionized, Arcadia was unionized during the- during the war years. My dad and uncle received unemployment compensation after the business closed. SC: When did it close? MG: It closed, let me see, 1940- About 1940. For a couple of years they had a Victory Garden. You know? And it was time to get a job and they decided to go into the business. SC: So during the war, they had a Victory Garden, during World War II? MG: During the war, they had a Victory Garden. Before that the other people, you know, when you were laid off you had nothing--you had to go for, I forget, what was it called at the time? There was a name for that. SC: Well, it would be--not unemployment--insurance, at that time. MG: No, it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be. It'd be some kind of aid you'd get. A lot of people were ashamed of this, they figured this was wrong, yet there were no jobs. SC: And so 1940 was right before World War II started. You know, at '40- MG: In 1941 the war started. SC: Did the business start up again? Did they actually- They went into business for themselves, right after the Victory Garden. Was that in the '40s? MG: Yeah, they called it- They went into the business in 19- I would say '43, was it? SC: During the war. MG: They called the business, "Walgo Knitting." Wald and Goldstein. GE: I'm sorry, say the name again. MG: W-A-L-G-O. Walgo. GE: Walgo. SC: So, when--just back up, because we'll go into the business- more of the business questions a little bit later, but to go back, do you know any other names in your family? Any names, your mother's maiden name, grandparents on both sides? MG: Well let's see, my father, Pop Morris, let's see, he had- He was one of five children, all came to America, five children. There was Jeanette, May, Francis, and Al. SC: So that was your mother's mother's family? MG: I know their Jewish names, too. SC: Oh good. MG: I don't know if you need that. SC: Sure, sure. GE: This is your father, Morris. These are his siblings? MG: Yeah, right. Morris's name was Moshe, and Jeanette was Shandyl. May was Malkeh. M-A-L-K-E-H. And Francis was Frumeh, and Al was Avraham. It was Abraham, but at that time- GE: That's the Yiddish name. MG: At that time he tried not to- not to- He was in the gold business of some type. A gold portion studio, he made gold inlays and things like that. SC: Did he do that in Poland? MG: My father's brother? Yeah. SC: Yeah, in Poland. MG: No, he came to this country and right away, the uncles that helped bring him over here said they- the best thing to do is to go to school, and you'll go to like a dental laboratory. So that was- that was pretty good. That was one of the few people that got a good education. SC: So all of their last names originally was Goldstein. MG: That's right. SC: Okay. How about your mother's maiden name? MG: My mother's maiden name was Surowitz. SC: Can you spell that? MG: S-U-R-O-W-I-T-Z. S-U-R-O-W-I-T-Z. And she- she was one of one, two, three-- I think she was one of six, but her youngest- Her- One of her younger- One of her younger- Her brother died in Europe, and that was a terrible tragedy because he was a young man. So I would say, let's see, she was one of six. GE: And what were those names? MG: Sarah, Paulie, Aaron, Lazar, and Chaya Freidel. That was all we knew her by so I don't know- Sarah's name was Sorah, Sorah Faigel, my mother's. She had a middle name. She always complained, "And why do you- Why I have a middle name? Because when I came on the boat they thought two people were coming on. "So they gave her trouble. She never gave us middle names. She says, "Because of that they had trouble getting her on the boat." Well anyway- SC: And- and- Am I right about the fact that Sarah's mother remarried? Did she remarry? I'm a little confused about that. MG: Yes, Sarah's mother remarried. SC: She did. Was- Was that a different name then Surowitz? MG: Yeah, yeah- Wait a minute. Her name was Surowitz. SC: Was that her second married name, maybe? MG: No, yeah, her- Her name was Surowitz. I never thought of it that way, the second name, but it had to be because she was from the other generation. SC: And- And did her mother have any other- other children by her second husband? You don't know- Do you know his name? MG: No, she had no other children, that was it. SC: No other children and that was it, yeah. So do you know anything about where- Any more about where they lived and worked or where they worked? Any of the family members, uncles, cousins, grandparents, do you know any other jobs that they held? And it's only- You sometimes see patterns, and that's why I'm asking that. MG: Any jobs that- SC: Other members of the family had. One was in dental work and gold, and- Were there any others? MG: Yeah, my mother's brother, he was always- He worked in a hat business. He didn't have his own business, though, he was- They made hats. But he had a business sense and a mind. And he went into- He opened- He bought a grocery store--you know they had the old fashioned corner stores--and he'd build it up and then sell it. He did it a number of times and he made quite a bit of money. Once you build them up and have a good clientele, then things go your way and you made- made out well. SC: And any others that you remember? Any other family members and what they- MG: Yeah, see-- Here's what the problem was, a brother and a sister along with children and grandchildren died in the Holocaust. That's from my mother's side. That was a tragedy. My mother never- She took it very hard. She- She- I can't talk about it. When she looked at the- She used to watch television, and she'd see something, you know, there was always- My dad and I says, "Listen, we want to see it. We're gonna wanna, we want to see it. We want to know what happened." So I never- Whenever I had a chance to look at it I- I did. Thirteen people, and she knew about that, and was- it's heart-wrenching. And the one brother, she said to him before, she says, "I want you to come here, Lazar." He said, "I have a letter business," and he says, "I'm making out well." He didn't know what Hitler had planned. See, in the beginning it wasn't- it wasn't believable. Who could do some of the things he said he would do, just wouldn't- It wouldn't be imaginable. But he did. SC: So in as far as when the people who did come to Allentown--your mother, and your dad's family, some of the brothers that came to Allentown--where did they live in Allentown? MG: You mean my parents? SC: Yeah, your parents- MG: They moved to where Cossie- Remember Cossie Snyder's? GE: Oh, on 7th Street? MG: Yeah, on 7th Street. Right next door, right around there, they built- There was an apartment, they had an apartment. And I- That's when they came to Allentown, I was two years old, so Libby was let's see eight by then. And then they moved to 7th and St. John's, right near the Good Shepherd Home, in an apartment, a corner home. We often pass it. So they started- I think I started first grade there, or something like that, after a few years, and then Jefferson School, we went to over in the East Side ; and then we moved over to Fulton Street, the 300 block, on Fulton Street, 309 S. Fulton. We lived there maybe 35 years and then ended up- And then someone bought our house, so we had to move out. And those were bad years, that- that was around the Depression years, things like that. SC: So you rented then? MG: So we, yeah, so then we- But then we were forced to- My father said we're not going to just move out, we're going to go to a- move into the corner house at Fulton- at Fulton and Fairview. And we lived there, altogether, between the two houses, another 15 years, until we lived maybe 48-50 years over there. We were about- I would say one of the last Jewish people that moved out of the old neighborhood. SC: So you were in the old neighborhood. MG: We were in the old- Where it was little Israel. Where the Jews lived there on 15th, 16th, 17th Street, 18th Street. SC: This is tape 2 and could you start with that, who actually didn't come and who was lost in the Holocaust? MG: My parents--my mother and dad came to-came to America, and her- and her sister and her brother--her sister, Paulie and her brother Aaron, Aharon in Jewish. SC: But the Lazar- MG: And the Lazar and Chaia Freidel and their- their children and grandchildren, whoever, we know- we know- we know a total of about 13, because there were so many years, and they married, and then they- But they were all gone, there was nobody- After the war, there were- there were nobody that were alive, because we would have brought them over. But there was nobody there. There was nobody left--so they- really was bad. SC: So just to talk a little bit more about- You lived down in the old Jewish neighborhood and- for a long time, and were one of the last families to leave. Then you moved to the west- You moved to the west? Could you tell me again what was the address of when you moved west, to west Allentown, further west? MG: What year they moved there, let's see-- I- You mean- moved- moved- SC: Out of the old Jewish neighborhood. MG: Well, we lived there almost all our lives. I'm only here- I'm only here, let's see, 20-- I'm here 26 years. SC: So you stayed down in that area? MG: So I was there, I was there go back 26 years. GE: Until the 1980s? MG: Yeah, 19- 1980s, let me see, I can't figure it out right off hand. SC: Well, just generally, that's fine. So what was the Jewish community like when you were young? And how has it changed over time? MG: Well, first of all, there were- Most of the Jewish people knew each other pretty well. You knew all the Jewish people. It was, the Temple was small -- we had a small Temple at 12th and Walnut St. And around 1950 they decided to build that temple, a big temple. SC: Just for the record, what Temple was that? MG: Temple Beth El. SC: Yes. So you went to the old Temple Beth El? MG: Yes, from a place that was like a twin house, for maybe a hundred whatever it was, it could hold a hundred people or so, to a, well, a very large temple. SC: Do you know the address of the original Temple? MG: I would say 12th and Walnut Street, the corner of- SC: 12th and Walnut Street, at the corner. GE: So not 12th and Chew--12th and Walnut? MG: 12th and Walnut, definitely 12th and Walnut. SC: And then- MG: Right down the street was the Funeral Home--Bachman, Bachman Funeral Home. At the time, there were no other Jewish funeral people, you know. So that's where- He took care of the burials. SC: Do you have any memories of when you were a child in that neighborhood? Any really bright memories? MG: Well, I know we played ball in the street. We played touch football in the street, there was a car here and a parked car there--a car everywhere--but not- not to the extent that you couldn't play. You just, when a car passed by, it wasn't completely a morgue, but it was a lot different than it is today. SC: Did your family have a car? MG: In 1940, my father bought a 1937 Chrysler. SC: And do- MG: That was a big day. He used to walk to work. All the way down to Arcadia Knitting Mill, down 15th Street, to Lawrence Street, Lawrence Street all the way up to where Mack is. And that's where his work was. Walked to work and walked home, it took him 20-25 minutes. Snow, rain, and sleet--he was never too sick to go to work. SC: Do you have any other memories of your father? MG: Yeah, my father-- Well, he was a hard worker and took care of the family the best he could. Like I said, he always wanted to go on vacation, made sure of that. And we often went to New York on weekends for our day- our Sunday excursion. Believe it or not, there was- there were specials. You went on the train the- the- the Lehigh Valley Railroad. One dollar, back and forth to New York. One dollar to go to New York, back and forth. But they filled the train and then your windows were open and they were steam engines. And I had to wear a suit, so I wore long sleeves, white sleeves, and had the window open and it would get black from the soot, from the- But we had great times there because we visited my grandmother. And when she came to visit, my mother's mother says- my mom says, "You come live with us." And just between us, I don't think that my grandmother- my mother really wanted my grandmother to live with us. But she was- there was such- she was such a good person and my grandmother was so nice that- But my grandmother says, "No, an old person doesn't belong with the young- the young people." She was a smart woman, really sharp. So that and she did, she- we went- They had the Bialystoker Home she- GE: Bialystoker. Is that where they were from, Bialystoker? MG: And there was a home in New York named the Bialystoker Home. And we came to visit my grandmother there, you know. She said, "That's the place for me." And she was always happy. So we'd go there, we took her out, they'd go to a- go to a- a cafeteria--well that was something. She had those long stockings and she put a piece of hard bread in those stockings, and my grandmother said, "What are you doing?" She pulled it out, she said, "I brought bread along." She says, "You're going to a--!" And it was a Kosher, in New York. A Kosher, let's say, what kind of a buffet? Not a buffet. SC: Like a Horn and Hardart? MG: Yeah, but it was Kosher. She wouldn't go anywhere else. SC: Do you think she put the bread in her stocking because of being in Europe, you know, for such a long time? MG: Yeah, probably, probably. She looked at her, she didn't even smile, I remember that. I says, "You know," I says, "what- what- what is she doing?" But you know what, they had no money. They- There was no such thing as Saturday night, you go to a movie or something like that. There was no- To her, if they- If the family had enough to eat and everybody was together--my- my- my mother said that the father said there was times when they didn't have enough food, that they would take- Maybe once a week, they would have meat, and cut it up. Portion-wise it really- it wasn't a lot. Because everything- They had no money and everything was expensive. SC: Do you- Did you- Were you involved in the Jewish community when you were a youth? Were you- Did you- MG: Well, I had a- I was Bar Mitzvahed, but I think people were more religious that time, you know? But we always, my dad always, my mother always observed the holidays. And so- What we did was- Passover, she had a- we had a Seder [a ritual feast associated with Jewish holiday of Passover]. And my aunt and uncle--my mother and father, aunt and uncle were pretty much tied together all the time, they always went together. GE: That was your father's brother? MG: My mom- my father's sister. My father's sister, Jeanette- the Walds, Jeannette Wald and Joe Wald, Joseph Wald. SC: Were- Were there any youth activities at- that were connected with the Jewish community at that time? When you were a teenager did you have social activities? Or were you working too hard at that point? MG: You know I'm trying to think about what activities- what activities we had... We went to the- Well the Jewish Community Center, which is at 6th and Chew. We- We often went there. I know that I was a member there. And we'd walk from Fulton Street to all the way down to 6th and Chew to go, take gym. It was $20.00 a year for my membership. SC: So did you play sports? MG: Yeah but I played, you know, intramural basketball and things like that, yeah. And there was swimming at the old Jewish Community Center. Trying to think of what other- Well pretty much- At the Center, or at the Temple, we went- more so than today on a Saturday morning, and- and a Friday night--more so a Saturday. SC: Did you date people in the community? MG: Me? SC: Yes. MG: I didn't do a lot of dating, no. I'm a- I'm a bachelor. I wasn't much of a ladies man. SC: So, anything else you did in your youth for a social life or any other activities? MG: Sounds like we didn't do anything. SC: No, that's fine -- life was slower then. We're all crazy now! MG: That's what it sounds like. SC: No, not at all! Did- Did you- MG: I belonged to B'nai B'rith at that time. And at that time B'nai B'rith was very active. It was nice going to the center or some place, after they moved to the new place--and the old. And that I would say, in general, the Jewish community were, were a lot closer than they are today. Because so many people, an influx of people from all over, maybe they're close in different ways among themselves, but- When they built that new- the new Temple, that was a good thing. SC: The newest Temple? MG: Yeah, the new one that I mentioned before. That- That was- It helped unite a lot of people. GE: The one at 17th and Hamilton? MG: The one at 17th and Hamilton, yeah. SC: But not the one that's- Newest one, yeah. MG: Not this one, right. That was good for years, yeah. Except that they needed more, more space for schooling and things like that, and a newer neighborhood. SC: Did you become involved, a little bit later on, in any other organizations as you got older? Any Jewish organizations, any community organizations? MG: I guess the- Trying to think of- SC: This- And continuing, so Al Goldstein changed his name to "Gold." Was it for business for the fact that he was in- in- MG: No, the idea was at that time Jewish people were very shy about using their name, because it was- It just wasn't a good thing, you know? There was Anti-Semitism and things like that. SC: Did you experience any Anti-Semitism in Allentown at all? MG: Not me personally. I- I was- was always thankful of that. It always sort of scared me. You went around with the idea, always- It something that was in the back of your mind. But the people I was with, I never encountered any, any of that trouble. SC: Were you friends with some of the- MG: My one sister did, when we were- we lived in the old house on Fulton Street, the original house because we lived in two different homes on that street. But she experienced something that- She says one of her neighbors, a young girl, she was maybe 10 years, said, "Take your dirty Jewish paper and take it in the house." So my- She went in crying or something like that, and my mother went and talked to her mother, and her mother didn't want to know anything about it. And I was surprised because, otherwise, I thought she was a nice person. But, that to me, wasn't very sensitive, it wasn't- wasn't nice. So, there was- There was- There were people around me that I saw- You know- But we mostly played ball together and it wasn't too bad. SC: And were the people that had some Anti-Semitism, were they Pennsylvania Dutch--the "dominant" Pennsylvania Dutch--or were they Eastern European? MG: I- It just was anybody that wasn't Jewish, you just didn't know. With the kids, first of all you thought it was going on in the house--you know. "Ethnic favoritism" or something like that. SC: Were you friendly with some of the older families in- in Allentown? Like the Samuels' family--they- they- I think they lived around Hamilton and probably about 17th or 18th. Samuels, you don't remember? MG: No, I don't know, I don't know, I can't think of the Samuels, not off hand? What was his first name? SC: Well there's one--let me think, let me think now-- Abram Samuels? No? MG: No. Senderowitz? SC: Sin-derowitz? MG: Senderowitz. SC: Senderowitz, okay. MG: Yeah. Beryl, everyone said, that's a good catch. Beryl Senderwitz, she lived in a home on Hamilton Street, that big mansion home, that's what I called them, right down from the Temple. Beautiful home. Every once in a while, she made parties. That's the one thing we did have, the Jewish girls often had- Who was it, let me see, I can't think of some of these names. SC: Well if you think of them at some point, let us know, give us a call and let us know. That would be fine. And- Or just you know or we could even come back, if you think of some more, we could come back another time. So how- How do you think- You mentioned a little bit how the Jewish community has changed over time, being more cohesive in the early years, and then maybe even more tight now but in a different way. But has it changed in any other way? MG: I think in general that people are freer today than before so I don't think you're defensive like you had to be in those days. I belong to the Mora Club, Men of Retirement Age, and I may be the only Jewish person, probably the only Jewish person who ever worked there- that ever joined. But it's a nice organization, men and any- I feel- I feel comfortable around the Christian people as well as- and I think that's pretty much the norm today. It was different then. See it's- It's not acceptable today. SC: So you were saying that things have definitely changed, that you worry about relationships outside the Jewish community a little bit. So what- what families were you friendly with in the Jewish community? Like the Mishkins? MG: Families I- Like I said, my mother and dad, and my aunt and uncle were pretty much- They went out together. A good time was a Saturday night movie, you know, that's what you did. Every week. It was fifty cents--it was probably cheaper in the early years, it was less than that. And the way- What they did- What we did at weekends, now that I think of it, went on picnics. My mother would pack up a cooler, you know, with all the sandwiches and all the- My- My mother, my father, my sisters, and their husbands, in the early years, and some of them, before they had children, and sometimes after they had children. They were all small. We would go to Cedar Beach or- Not Cedar Beach, Lehigh Parkway a lot. Yeah. And picniced. We'd get a table early and that- that- that was it. That's a good time. SC: Did- As you got older, and- and in the decades since the '80s, have you been friendly with different families yourself? MG: Me? Well I had a friend- I was pretty- I wasn't really a big social bug. I was very interested in the Friendship Circle in recent years, I mean the last 15 years or so, and that seems to be one of my big interests. And I always enjoyed going to the Center and being around people. SC: So were there any specific families-? MG: The friend- The friend actually- Like I said my mom and dad, aunt and uncle, they were together all the time. And I don't think they looked for any outside, too much of that. So we didn't- They didn't socialize in- like some people do. It was pretty much private. But myself, I had a friend, Irvin Jacobson, for many years. And we were together, we went around, we went whatever it was, on vacation in different places. SC: Or as they say nowadays, "you hung with him." MG: I hung with him, that's right! Yeah, you hung out. SC: So I'm going to stop now and I'm going to switch over to Gail. GE: Okay so now what we are going to do is talk a little bit about the business. And if I understand correctly, and you tell me, I think you said it was around 1943, right, that your dad and his brother-in-law went into the business. So do you want to just tell me whatever you know about that, around 1943. So it was your dad, Morris, and what's his brother-in-law's name again? MG: Joseph- Joseph- Joe Wald. GE: Walz. W-A-L- How do you spell his last name? SC: D-S? MG: W-a-l-d. GE: Wald. W-A-L-D. Okay. And so the two of them had been already working for many years as foremen at Arcadia, and now they went into their own business. MG: They went into their own business. I might have some notes on that. GE: Sure, you can take your time. MG: Where are we at? The business? GE: Yeah, so it would be about 1943 that they started the business. And what was the name? MG: Walgo. GE: Walgo. Okay. And what were they making? MG: You mean-? GE: They were a knitting mill. MG: Walgo Knitting Mills. They went- They went on- They went to New York for business, but when they went into business, at that time... it was- it was- the picnic was over. This is what they were told when they went to New York. Forget about the old people, people that had ran the business years ago, had nothing, gotten- During the war, they were making money like- They get very wealthy, that's it, because there was no price- You could work for almost any price you wanted. GE: Right, the demand was so high. MG: The demand was so high, it was- it was- it was big. But people didn't have the machines. They were making war machines and everything else so everything stopped, other people went into the service, they just- they just didn't have it. But after the war, it stopped almost immediately, because people started to produce and then the price was low and if you were a contractor like my father, they would go there and all, and they always said, they used the expression, "Suck on a herring." That means this is all I can give you. The price is going to be very minimal and you're just lucky to make a living, but as a contractor- GE: This was now like 1943? This was still during the war or after the war? MG: This is after the war. GE: Okay, so after the war. MG: After the war, because during the war, you couldn't- they couldn't do anything about it. GE: Right, so did the business start during the war or after the war? MG: No, it started after the war. GE: Okay, so they went into business not like 1943 but more like 1947 or something like that? MG: Maybe- During the- No, during the war, yeah, because- No they didn't go in, they must have gone in 1947 or so. GE: Or '46, you know, maybe- maybe shortly after the war. And when you say they were a "contractor", tell us a little bit more what that means. MG: A contractor means you don't buy the- you don't buy- you don't make the goods, you sell it--you do it for somebody else. You're making- You make a- Someone will send you the yarn, instead of you buying the yarn, they will send it in--and say I need 5,000 lbs. on such and such a machine, and- or they could send in 50,000 lbs. And you made different things, you made cotton knit goods, like flat goods--t-shirts, stripes, like you're wearing right there. And then there is also rib cloth, which is the underwear cloth, on the- on the ribbed machines, and that ran on a cable. There was- Each machine was on a belt run by a big motor and it ran on a long line of machines, old-fashioned machines. Later on there were people who went in and bought individual machines. But at that time, they ran on the old style belt machines. GE: Okay, okay, and so they made a lot of this type of- a lot of t-shirts. MG: They made a lot of t-shirts, right. They didn't make it, they made the cloth for t-shirts. They made the cloth for t-shirts. GE: Okay, so they didn't make the final good, they were just cloth makers. MG: After the cloth was made, they were- they got instructions of where to ship it. Maybe, you know, go back to a warehouse for them or you sent it to an individual customer. GE: So they really made the fabric that went- MG: They made the fabric. It came off the machines and that was the end of it. Then it went to a dye house, we sent it to a dye house, if it wasn't colored, originally colored. But if it was unfinished goods, it had to be sent to where it was processed in a dye house. GE: So you were the step before the dye house? MG: Right--the step before the dye house. GE: You- You made the material. And what was it that you got from the company- What was your supplier, what were your raw materials? In other words, you made- MG: Or what was- what was- What we made- made out of? We made out of cotton knit goods. Cotton, polyester, that came in, then there was a certain amount of silk--well that was usually mixed with something else. It wasn't pure silk, like you couldn't- it was too fine, the machines couldn't run that. GE: Basically, it was some kind of cotton blend, polyester, silk blend that you got--the raw materials. And then you made it into- MG: We got it on spools. GE: On spools, okay. Okay. And then you made that into fabric that would then be used to make the clothes, to go to the dye factory. MG: And from there to a particular customer where they spread the goods. GE: And made the outfit. MG: The conscious [?] of what you're saying, it's not- you know, don't worry about it. GE: Yeah, frankly I don't. MG: Nothing to worry about, nothing. GE: All right, so let's see, your uncle and father started the business around- after the war, and they were contractors. Do you know who their customer was, who they were a contractor for? MG: Only too well. They had- They got connected with Seco Mills, S-E-C-O, and they were a big- These guys were two big, two salesmen, you know, and they ran a pretty good operation. But they had enough work to keep you busy. And my uncle, instead of being a little bit of a gambler and going with maybe less work and harder to find work, but could advance you a lot better, a little easier, they didn't take that route and they stuck with the big guy, and the big guy never paid because he's always giving- he says, "You always got work, you don't have to worry." You know what I mean? Keep the- Keep the machines running. GE: Right, I see. So it was a very, very small margin you're saying. They always kept the price low. MG: Right, they didn't pay- They didn't pay enough, they squeezed you on that, because you got the work. GE: Right, right. There was always work, but- but- MG: So my uncle was one of the ones- always the one who insisted, "Stay with them, you'll always have work, you have to work." Well okay. GE: And with your father and your uncle, which one took care of what part of the business? Did they always work together with decisions or-? MG: Actually, my uncle ran- he ran the office and then he ran certain machines. My dad ran Tompkins machines, which is a special machine, it's made for baby- good for like terry cloth and soft goods like baby cloth. It's a very fine type of machine. Not- Very, very few people in Allentown used the Tompkins machines. But they bought them and my father took care of them. GE: So they were kind of specialized? The Tompkins, it was like a special- MG: Well that was special--different than most people made. First of all it was a slow producer and they never wanted to pay the amount of money because it was, you know- Even though everything is relative, if it takes longer to make you got to get paid more. But if you're a manufacturer, you can call the price a little better. You know. But it's- Anyway, that's contracting, and we always- we made a decent living, we were able to... GE: And so they were in business for how long? MG: Oh my God. They were- GE: They started around 1946-47, how long did they keep the business until? MG: Maybe 35 years or so. GE: Oh okay, so until about 1980? Around. Does that sound right? MG: Yeah, yeah. GE: So until maybe around 1980, something like that. And the whole time, that was their one customer, Seco? MG: Yeah. GE: They didn't- They were always supplying for Seco? MG: -- In his upholstering business. They borrowed money from the bank and bought two knitting machines. The mill was in operation twenty-four hours. GE: Oh. So they were- They were around the clock? MG: Each partner alternating twelve-hour shifts, and without making too much money, because how much could you produce? But, that's what they did. And the machines knitted flat goods used for t-shirts, striped and plain. Offered a little more space by Mr. Lang, they purchased rib machines, used mostly for underwear. GE: So- so they rented space by- from Mr. Lang initially? MG: Yes, you're right, the upholstery place. Naturally, needing more space for yarn, the basement which was partially dirt filled, Mr. Lang offered to give it- the place rent free if you dig it out. So he was good, he did them a favor, he did them a favor. So we hired a guy, he wheelbarrowed all the dirt out, then hauled it away, got rid of it. GE: And now they had it, rent free. MG: They had it rent free for the yarn, because it was small and the amount they could handle- They used to tell them, used to tell the- the- the contractor- the boss- the manufacturer not to send in too much yarn. GE: Right. Because they could only handle so much. MG: They could only handle so much. And that's not the way it works, because they don't care. You hold- You store it, and when we're ready to use it, you'll- That type of thing. So, but that- They couldn't do it because we were pretty good with them so they figured well, we'll- we'll find a way to manage this, and they helped- worked along with us. Until they got into- What was the next thing they did? They were offered a little more space by Mr. Lang, they purchased a rib machine. Naturally needing space for yarn, the basement which was partially dirt filled... The- It was necessary to get larger to meet the customer's needs. At that time they were knitting striped goods, used- using polyester and cotton and ny- and nylon. I think rather than silk, it was nylon. GE: Because that's a lot more durable and it had now been invented. So did they buy their own place at some point? Like how long did they stay by Mr.- MG: They never, never bought their own place. GE: Okay, so they just- they rented space. MG: Moving here's- Here's where that started. The moving process began as they moved from Mr. Lang's building to 6th and Lehigh- at 6th and Lehigh, to a large building at 14th and Gordon. They- They occupied the first floor with- with- with seventy to eighty machines. GE: Oh, seventy to eighty machines? Wow. So they built it really up a lot. MG: Yeah. The building was sold after working there five to six years. See, there was no way to stay small, otherwise the customer- the contractor- the manufacturer was not going to give you work. You have to grow, you have to grow. They don't allow it. Bethlehem Furniture of Allentown moved to Redline, New Jersey and we rented the building for seven to eight years. Do you remember Bethlehem Furniture? GE: I- I don't. Where is that located? Bethlehem Furniture? MG: I don't- GE: About? MG: I- I know at Front Street. GE: Okay. Front Street, and is that in Bethlehem or in Allentown? MG: No, no in Allentown. Front Street up at the- Somewhere maybe between Gordon and Liberty, it's hard to say exactly where, but somewhere in that area there. For seven to eight years. The next move was a two story building at 4th and Auburn. We rented the first floor, it was a little larger, and we were able to house a few more machines and store yarn. GE: How many people worked there, about? MG: Oh my God. Sometimes it's been- In that place they had about 60, 65, 70 people. GE: Okay. And that was let's say at the peak. MG: Yeah. The last move- Well around the clock. GE: Right right right, that's right. MG: But they all- They ran twelve-hour shifts for a lot of the people--the better knitters. Because you don't have to keep people and pay overtime for people that aren't producing like those that are able to better- do more. You know, handle more machines. Anyway, a good knitter- They got paid not quite what Union wages were, but they got twelve hours. So when the Union came in with the idea of unionizing, naturally, that's what their- They'd come in real early and get the workers before they got in the door--there was a lot of unrest. Because the- Those that wanted the Union were probably a lesser able to do some of the work. Anyway, they fought it off and they never had a Union. GE: Oh. So it was never a unionized- It was never a Union Shop. MG: Never a Union Shop, 'cause the guys that worked the twelve hours won out. And I mean my dad and my uncle told them, "Listen, if you're Union, you're going to be paid more, but forget the twelve hours, that's over." So they liked the idea, "Money now--to hell with the future, money now." GE: Okay, so the employees voted to stay- to keep out the Union Shop. MG: Right, and it stayed that way. GE: Okay. And Martin, what were- what did you do in the- in their business? MG: I was in the shipping. GE: You were in shipping. Okay, okay. MG: Yeah, I was in shipping, receiving and shipping, and I never had enough help. GE: Yeah, well I think that's how it goes! MG: That's how it goes. Never had enough help. So the last move was at 201 East Hamilton Street, the last move, before it was sold in 1972 to George Krasnov. GE: Okay, so it was sold in 1972. So they were in the business it sounds like about 25 years? Does that sound about right? MG: Could be, yeah, yeah, yeah. GE: Because they started a little bit after WWII and went to 1972. MG: Right. George Krasnov, a former partner of Surefit Slipcovers. GE: Okay, so he- So, so- So George Krasnov, did he leave Surefit, or did this become part of Surefit? MG: No there was a- There was a- The father died and then you know there's children and children's children, so what happened, they broke up and he was left out. And I guess there was some kind of payout, but they never spoke. There was a lot of very- In a business, that's what happens. SC: Now was Murray Platt with Surefit? GE: I- You're right, I think Murray Platt was a contractor. SC: He was a contractor. MG: Murray Platt, I just nothing- I just know Murray, but I don't- I know there was a million people, I knew everybody I talked to was in textile. SC: And was Kraznov K-R-A-Z-N-O-V? MG: K-R-A-Z-N-O-V is correct. Yeah, Kraznov, exactly. [correct spelling is K-R-A-S-N-O-V] GE: Was there anyone else working in the business? So it was your father, your uncle, and you--was anybody else working in that business from your family? MG: No. GE: Just- Just you, and your father, and your uncle. MG: My father, my dad, uncle, and myself worked for George after he bought it. GE: Wait a minute, did you say- Your father? Oh, yeah. You, your father, and your uncle all worked for Goerge for a while, I see. MG: Well that was because- When he bought it, when George bought it. Now what happened- My uncle was loafing around--you wouldn't believe it. He was okay in the beginning but then he sort of didn't care. Well, I said to my father, "George is not going to take this." So what happened? He laid him off. He thought that my father would go too, but it didn't happen that way. My father was running these Tompkins machines, and it was a good thing at the time. Anyway, my uncle stayed for two years, my dad for three, and me for five years, until he closed- And he had to close because of poor business. He called me in the office and he was crying and he said that I'd have to give it up. He says, "I'm sorry, but--" They- He had some good years. When he bought the business, I remember Marilyn- Do you know Marilyn? GE: I don't, no, I don't. MG: Well Marilyn Krasnov, his wife, said, "I never saw a business that has no debt." The cleanest business in the world, and they got it- bought it for a reasonable price. GE: So did you retire at that time? When- when- MG: No, I didn't retire. Oh yeah, when he closed it. GE: When he closed. MG: Yeah, but then I- Then I was- Then I went to different textile places. GE: So you continued to do shipping? MG: I continued . . not shipping, no, no, I did different things. I was upstairs, I helped with the spreading and different things, and- But the- the people- People were in trouble, the business wasn't good. So finally I went to a workshop, like a training place, it was on Union Boulevard, I forgot the name of it. GE: Was this a- Was this a training place for people from textiles or just a training place for- MG: I think a training place for different work. But they would have- Sometimes lead you to- GE: Different kinds of jobs and- MG: Yeah. They- They- They heard what I did and they sent me to a- a suit company. What's the name of it again? GE: Oh, like where they make suits? MG: Where they made suits. Not made suits, well, yeah, they did actually. They- They- They didn't actually finish the suit, they made the goods for it. But it was their business. GE: Okay, okay. So they were manufacturers, is that what you mean by saying "their business"? MG: What the hell was the name of that place? SC: So were they contractors? MG: No, no, they were manufacturers. SC: They were manufacturers. MG: They were manufacturers. And there was a union and I worked there ten years. GE: Oh okay. And was that located here? MG: I had a training program, that's what led me to it. GE: And what did you do at that firm? What did you do for them? MG: I ran a machine, it was like a- a matching machine. I was the only one that ran that machine. GE: It matches what? When you say a matching machine- MG: Well you know the stripes are even. So you had a- And I worked there for ten years and it was pretty nice, I- I enjoyed it. It was easier than any of the other things. I was concentrated on one thing and there was a union, and I ended up with a tiny pension. Once a month, I get $62.47. GE: Right, right. Where- Where was that located? MG: Textile Amalgamated- That was located in Industrial Park. Industrial Park. GE: Are they still in business? MG: No, everybody's out. They were in business a pretty long- They went down South I think in 1992. And I've heard that they- Well, that's a long time ago, and they closed like everybody else. 'Cause they had- What was the name of them? SC: Amalgamated something? MG: No, Amalgamated is the- is the union. SC: The union. Amalgamated- MG: And that's why- SC: Amalgamated of- GE: Amalgamated Workers, Textile Workers? SC: Clothing and Textile Workers? I can look that up. MG: Yeah. It's a- It's the- There's that other union, too. SC: International Ladies Garment Workers? MG: She's a real sewer! GE: She's a real historian! MG: International Ladies Garment Workers is the union? Yeah, sure, International Ladies Garment Workers is the Union. SC: Look for the union label. MG: Look for the union label! GE: Exactly. Do you have any favorite stories about when- your dad and uncle, about the business? Like any stories- MG: No, only when you leave I'll have a story. GE: Well you'll be able to tell me if you do. MG: A famous story . . . GE: But any favorite story or any interesting story either about something that took place at the business or something with- something with the manufacturer that they were dealing with, something that you observed while you were working, anything that you wanted to- Well how did you feel- Let's say, you worked- you worked there with the other workers. How did you feel the relationship was between the workers and the owners? MG: That's- They were- They were- I would say not bad. It was- I couldn't say they were terrible. They often came and complained. I often heard about it. Things you know that- "This is the worst place to work." I say, "Any place you work is the worst place." I told- That's what I told them. "I worked," I said, "in other places, too." GE: How do you- So now- Just like you said, a lot of this has disappeared, you know, textiles, there is no more in this area. MG: Well price-wise they were- GE: Right, they went to cheaper labor. MG: Priced out. That's what everything happened here. That's why there is no manufacturing here. What happened with the automobile industry? They're still doing business. GE: Yeah, yeah. So far we are still holding our own, but it's certainly not the way we did it- We didn't dominate the way we dominated 50 years ago. MG: But there's still Ford, Chrysler, and General Motors. GE: Yes, yes, yes. So I was just wondering from your impressions, the fact that this industry really no longer exists here, what- How do you think that has affected first the Jewish community, the local Jewish community, and second just the Allentown community? MG: Well I think the Jewish community, where before, a young fella knew where he was going to go--so he went off and went to school, and then joined the business, or went right into the business. And he had a good living, because they were thriving, you know, one way or another they were doing pretty well. A lot of them were manufacturers, so they did very well--like Schneider Manufacturer. Irwin Schneider--they had a wonderful business--sewing plant, they had 100 machines, they were unionized. It didn't matter. They were manufacturers. If you're union, you know it's- it's not always- the union is not going to kill everybody. GE: So for the Jewish community, you're saying, there was a lot of certainty then? That- That it was something that was clear. MG: Yeah they had a way- They had a way- A direction to go. And then later on, I guess, for Jewish people, it wasn't the- the only way out. They went to school, they got a good education, they became doctors, they became engineers, their- Education-wise, that's- that's how they did it. GE: Right, right. Good point, right. MG: Yeah and what happened, naturally, in the downtown where I originally said I worked Saturdays, changed, became... They opened up malls. In the downtown, every store that was downtown--Williams, Brytes [?], those were the dress shops and hat stores--became- Well, they were closed. And big stores opened up in the malls--department stores. So the little guy was out, the corner store was out, the little guy was- the supermarkets. I'm old enough to see it all. GE: And so for the Allentown community, certainly all of that changed. How about for the workers? In other words, there were all these jobs and now those types of jobs don't exist. Do you think that matters, are there just- For the workers? Were they- MG: No, because- Well there are service jobs now, that's not- Certainly it doesn't matter. Because it was no problem getting a job years ago in the Lehigh Valley. Because the Lehigh Valley and surrounding area was all textiles. It was like a domino effect, I'll never forget, when they closed. GE: Right, and what do you mean "it was a domino effect?" MG: Well one- One closed after the other. One closed after the other and that was the end of it. The knitting mills, the sewing plants, some of them went down South, there was- Now, for example, Allison Manufacturing--they were big. We got work from them. They went down South and they- they- they were good for a while down there. Finally they sold out--they probably made millions so it didn't matter. But they were one of the big guys around here. GE: Who owned that? MG: Schneider. GE: Oh, is that Schneider. MG: Yeah. GE: You know, we did interview [them]. MG: Some of these things must be the same as- what I'm telling you, you heard from them. GE: But that's good, it's good for us to hear it a few times because it all confirms. SC: Creates truth. So do- Which Schneider was that? Allison Mills? MG: Warton? W-A-R-T-- T-O-N? Warton. Yeah, I think W-A-R-T-O-N. [correct spelling is W-H-A-R-T-O-N] GE: Are they still in town, the family? I don't know them. Like are they still local? MG: I don't know. I just- Every time I answer a question I wish my other sister was here. Like Gloria, she's- GE: You know, I should have asked. It would have been a good idea for-for Gloria or Libby to do it with you. MG: Well they- The only thing is they didn't have- GE: Correct, direct experience. MG: Not direct experience alone. They don't have the interest to bother- to bother to remember everything. They don't care that much. I was- It's more of my interest than theirs. But I still think Gloria will read some of this and say, "No, this and this and," you know. Well she- I mean, they could remember, but... GE: Why do you think- Why do you think the Jews- the Jews in general were somewhat over-represented in textiles? You know many when they came here worked in textiles. Why do you think that is? MG: Well, they came over here carrying machines. GE: Right but why- but why- Did they come over here, did your family come over carrying machines? MG: No, they didn't do any of that. With these I'm talking about sewing machines. If you went into manufacturing at that time, if you wanted a job and had a machine, especially if you did it, it was different! GE: You could do it I guess even in your little apartment or- MG: Well- Well- You could do it even in their place. That's right--even in their place. And I think today, believe it not, there are Syrians. GE: That's what I hear. MG: You heard that? They have little spots and they're contracting at a- They have no overhead. So they can- they can make the stuff at a- And guess what? I think the government knows about it and they won't even bother them. They are off the street, they're not collecting unemployment. And if they are, they get double. We had a guy who did that and the- the- the unemployment agency came in and took him right off the job. GE: So what do you think made the textile industry appealing to the Jewish immigrants? MG: I think it was easy, it was something you could- It was a lot of work. It was- And also, it looked like- I mean, I don't know if I have the answer to that, but it looked like they were able to get started without too much trouble. They had the- They had the machine, they had the way to get in there. GE: We call that a lot of times "low barriers." MG: Low barriers! That's right, that's right. GE: Low barriers to enter. MG: That's right. GE: Okay, terrific, terrific. SC: I have a couple of follow up questions. MG: Oh I knew it! I knew it! That's okay, I'm not in a rush, I'm not rushing you. I'm retired. SC: That's- That was one of my questions. When did you retire? How old were you? Or what year? MG: Didn't I say in here? GE: That's okay. Well you know what- I think you said '87 when you retired? About '87? MG: There you go! SC: Okay, I don't have that down here. GE: It that about right? You were 62? MG: This thing don't work. I'll tell you- GE: Well the reason I said '87, tell me if this is right, you said that you left in '77 and then you said you worked about another 10 years. SC: Another ten years. MG: Well I left in 19- Let me see. I moved, I moved in '87 to this house. We moved it- GE: But the shop that bought you from Krasnov, that happened in '72, right? SC: Yeah, I wrote down '72. GE: And he kept your uncle on for two years, your father for three years, and you for five. SC: Five years. GE: So that's now '77. SC: [19]77, and then you worked at other places for a while. GE: You said about ten years. MG: Yeah, I worked for ten years. SC: Okay, so that is '87. MG: There you go! Something came out! I like that girl, she's mathematically- She got me cornered. GE: And- And am I right, Uncle Martin, that you were about 62 then when you retired? MG: Yeah. SC: What was the address of Lang? The Lang Company, where you rented? GE: Where you got started. MG: 6th and- 6th- 6th and Lehigh. SC: And Lehigh. Okay. That was the one that was 6th and Lehigh, I wasn't quite clear about that. And then 4th and- Was it 4th and Auburn that the one business you worked- Bethlehem Furniture at that- MG: No, that's 201 East Hamilton Street, Bethlehem Furniture. SC: Okay. Well what was it on Auburn? "Twelve-hour shift"--one of yours? GE: Maybe- Maybe that was one of the ones that you rented? SC: Yeah, one of the ones that you rented? Was it 4th and Auburn, I thought it- I thought you said. GE: I remember you being in Auburn. SC: Yeah, well, we can get that from the tape. MG: Wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. You'd better repeat these things. Did Schneider tell you about when they came in and broke- they- broke up all of his machines? GE: I don't think so. SC: He mentioned it, he mentioned it. GE: Irwin? SC: Yeah. GE: Salistky did. MG: No, no, not- not Salitsky. GE: Schnieder did? SC: Yeah. MG: Salistky's dead. GE: I know, I know. But we interviewed him before. We interviewed him and- MG: I'm going to live on. GE: Good. SC: We'll be back. MG: I'm going to live on. GE: His family has very good longevity. His mom and dad were both like in their upper 90's. MG: To tell you the truth, to tell you the truth, do you know what I did? I had a stock I sold twice, not remembering the first time. GE: Oh. MG: So I'm telling you, I'm worried. GE: No, you're okay. MG: "You're okay." She's telling me, I'm telling you I'm not okay! SC: No, you are. Well I have a couple- A couple of other questions. This is going to stop, I'll just write the answers to it. Maybe we'll get one in. What did your family value most, your extended family? These are sort of filmy questions. These are thought questions. MG: Live a clean, honest life, I think, is very very important. Not- My mother always told me, "Don't come home with a policeman." I said , "I'm safe once he takes me home, Mom." She didn't wanna see me come- come home with a policeman. That to her was-- SC: That's great. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Martin Goldstein, July 16, 2013
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Martin Goldstein talks about how his father and uncle came to America with their families, initially worked in New York in a textile mill, then moved to Allentown to work at Arcadia Mills, a large knitting mill. Martin’s father and uncle were foreman at the factory. The mill operated 24 hours per day, each man was a foreman of a twelve hour shift. Then in the late 1940s, after World War II, Martin’s father and uncle started their own knitting mill named Walgo Knitting. They were contractors for Seco Mills until they sold the business in 1972.
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LVTNT-03
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2013-07-16
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Title
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
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Tama Fogelman
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5.4 August 7, 2013 Tama Fogelman and Maxine Klein, August 7, 2013 LVTNT-24 1:20:54 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Tama Fogelman Maxine Klein Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 FogelmanTama_KleinMaxine_20130807 1.0:|29(7)|54(2)|69(7)|82(18)|99(6)|110(8)|127(4)|144(14)|165(3)|190(11)|209(11)|226(3)|239(16)|258(3)|273(13)|292(5)|311(8)|334(10)|359(13)|390(9)|417(8)|442(9)|469(14)|496(13)|515(15)|540(9)|575(8)|604(10)|625(14)|650(9)|673(15)|704(12)|719(13)|744(8)|763(14)|782(10)|803(12)|828(8)|853(10)|884(5)|909(4)|946(10)|975(15)|1004(5)|1025(15)|1038(12)|1063(11)|1090(11)|1113(11)|1136(7)|1161(10)|1182(4)|1201(6)|1220(6)|1237(13)|1264(14)|1285(3)|1312(8)|1333(5)|1358(9)|1375(18)|1388(14)|1407(4)|1428(15)|1451(17)|1478(8)|1505(11)|1520(13)|1545(6)|1574(15)|1597(10)|1616(15)|1629(14)|1648(9)|1667(7)|1686(8)|1705(3)|1726(7)|1743(3)|1766(18)|1781(17) 0 https://youtu.be/-IX8HtCpMH4 YouTube video 0 Introducing the Kivert Sisters SC: So I’m going to ask you, first of all, to state both of your full names, and then I’ll talk to one person and then to another person. What is your full name?
 ; 
 ; TF: Tama Arlene Kivert Fogelman.
 ; 
 ; SC: And when were you born?
 ; 
 ; TF: 10-01-43.
 ; 
 ; SC: And can you talk a little about where you have lived all your life? 0 250 Family History: The Chenetz Family SC: So Tama, can you talk a little bit about what you know about your parents, their names? Where they have lived? Also, your grandparents and your great-grandparents…as much as you know about your family – going back even before they lived in the United States - whatever you know.
 ; 
 ; TF: My parents were both born in this country. My father was born in Northampton, our mother was born in Freeland, PA. My grandparents – I don’t remember where they were from. Oh, Detroit?
 ; 
 ; MK: No. Our grandparents were from – on mother’s side, on the Chenetz side – my mother’s name was Mae Chenetz. She was the third of five children. Her father came from Ukraine –- near Kiev. 0 535 Family History: The Kivert Family MK: So, let’s see what happened then with Mother. Well, then she met our father, Saul. 
 ; 
 ; TF: She worked at the Five and Ten Cent Store, across the street. 
 ; 
 ; MK: Is that where she worked? No, she didn’t work there. 
 ; 
 ; TF: Well, where did she work?
 ; 
 ; MK: She worked as a bookkeeper for one of the furniture stores – Landau. 
 ; 
 ; TF: Mother never told me that. 
 ; 
 ; MK: Oh, yeah, she worked as a bookkeeper.
 ; 
 ; TF: Well, maybe that’s where she met daddy?
 ; 
 ; MK: That’s where she met daddy.
 ; 0 1188 Saul Kivert: Entrepreneur MK: So where were we here? Daddy started the tailor shop. 
 ; 
 ; SC: That is fascinating. So he was mechanical – in so many ways.
 ; 
 ; MK: I guess he was. And he was artistic also-- later in life. He painted and did needlepoint . We have hundreds of pieces of things that he did. He was very prolific. And then in the meantime, he also baked. He baked challah.
 ; 0 1702 Saul Kivert's Tailor Shop SC: Do you know, just as a question, before we get into the business, what year he took over the business from his father and when he added the dry cleaning and the suit club?
 ; 
 ; MK: I don’t know…that was all before I was born. Well, he and mother got married in 1931. Did he have the tailor shop then or was he still running his father’s? 
 ; 
 ; TF: I don’t have any memory of his father’s business. My memory is he had the tailor shop - 2155.
 ; 
 ; MK: He had it in Hazleton.
 ; 0 2085 Maxine Klein's Memories of the Factory SC: What was the address of the factory?
 ; 
 ; MK: It was between 20 and 21st on Main Street – 20 something Main Street. It would have been an odd number.
 ; 
 ; SC: Was that an existing building?
 ; 
 ; MK: It was a bank building. I have memories, when my father started the factory. It was right after the war. During the war, women, obviously, went back to work and had a lot of men’s jobs, and they started wearing pants. The only pants that were made at that time for women were tailored like men’s pants. After the war, my father thought this was going to be a big thing. He never had his own brand – he was a contractor. So he went into New York, and he met up with a man named, S.M. Elowsky, who owned four or five different manufacturing companies. He wanted to make women’s tailored pants, because he knew how to make tailored pants.
 ; 0 2464 The Sisters' Childhood in Northampton SC: What were your memories?
 ; 
 ; TF: Related to the factory you mean?
 ; 
 ; SC: And just your memories growing up in the area.
 ; 
 ; TF: It was very nice. It was easy. You could walk anywhere any time of day and at night time you weren’t frightened to walk the street or anything.
 ; 
 ; MK: No, no.
 ; 
 ; TF: Northampton was a booming little town. 0 2583 Marriages & ; Family Businesses SC: Were most of the store owners Jewish? Because that was true in South Bethlehem. 
 ; 
 ; MK: A lot were. As she said, Coleman’s, Lerner’s.
 ; 
 ; TF: How about the cotton shop?
 ; 
 ; MK: Oh, Kroupes [?] – that was our cousin. The furniture store, Glazier’s – Northampton Furnishing.
 ; 
 ; TF: Well, that was Glaziers, but that was also Roth.
 ; 
 ; MK: No, Roth was another one.
 ; 
 ; TF: Oh, that’s right.
 ; 
 ; SC: Were they related to the Glazier’s furniture store in Allentown.
 ; 
 ; MK: Yes, yes, yes.
 ; 
 ; TF: It’s all relatives. 0 2872 Childhood Memories (cont'd) SC: Do you have any memories from childhood that you can share?
 ; 
 ; TF: Well I don’t know how it would relate to what you are interested in. As I said, life there was very nice, it was very easy. My parents were known in the community – they were liked. So I didn’t ever have to deal with anti-semitism. 
 ; 
 ; MK: I didn’t either.
 ; 
 ; TF: That is something I didn’t feel. I’m sure it was there somewhere. I know my father was very friendly with the Priest at the Catholic Church. He would go there a lot. Maybe they drank – I don’t know what they did there. I’m just saying that mother played bridge with a lot of the neighbors –so, it was a very nice life. It was a very nice life. 0 3148 The War Years: Saul Kivert & ; the Billera Pants Factory MK: Our father (during the War Years – during the 40’s), he had the tailor shop during the day and Tama remembers, he also worked for the pants factory at night.
 ; 
 ; TF: In Northampton.
 ; 
 ; MK: The Billera Pants Factory had a government contract to make …
 ; 
 ; GE: This wasn’t his pants factory? This was another pants factory?
 ; 
 ; MK: No, they had a government contract to make army uniforms.
 ; 0 3442 The Kivert Sisters: Early Adulthood SC: Maybe we should switch over to the business now?
 ; 
 ; GE: Did you want to ask them anything – in regards to their own education?
 ; 
 ; SC: We didn’t really talk about that - your own education, both of you? Did you ever become involved in the business?
 ; 
 ; TF: Well, I became involved in the business when my husband died – so that was 16 years ago.
 ; 
 ; SC: What was your education?
 ; 
 ; TF: I only went to high school. That’s as far as I went. I got married right after high school.
 ; 
 ; SC: What year did you get married?
 ; 
 ; TF: 1952.
 ; 
 ; SC: And that makes sense – that’s the way it was supposed to work back then. 0 3762 Tama Manufacturing GE: We’ve already talked a lot about the business, but we are going to continue to have that conversation. Some of these things you’ve talked about, and we’ll just go through it real quickly. In terms of who started the business, a little bit the origins, maybe just to recap and to summarize.
 ; 
 ; TF: Well, our father started the business. Maxine, you were clear about where he started -- underneath the house?
 ; 
 ; MK: I don’t know . .. you thought he had an early or a few machines in a garage or somewhere under the house. 
 ; 
 ; TF: Maybe the garage thing was behind the bank, as you thought.
 ; 
 ; MK: I remember it was ’46 that he was in the bank building then.
 ; 0 4341 The '70s: Changes in Manufacturing MK: No, it was in New York. He was there, too. During the ‘70’s, the manufacturing began to go to China and Mexico.
 ; 
 ; GE: To China that early?
 ; 
 ; MK: In the ‘70’s the factory had trouble getting stuff made there, so they decided to diversify. They opened another factory called Penn Garment that opened in Allentown. They made very specific things that I don’t remember.
 ; 
 ; GE: Separate from Tama Manufacturers?
 ; 
 ; MK: Yes, but the three of them were owners.
 ; 0 MovingImage Maxine Kline and Tama Fogelman talk about how their father, Saul Kivert, became a tailor at sixteen years old to help support his family when Saul’s father, a tailor, had a nervous breakdown. During World War II, Saul worked at a pants factory and learned the business. After the war, Saul started Tama Manufacturing-- a tailored women’s pants company. Interview with Tama Fogelman and Maxine Tannenbaum Klein, August 7, 2013 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is August 7, 2013. So I'm going to ask you, first of all, to state both of your full names, and then I'll talk to one person and then to another person. What is your full name? TAMA FOGELMAN: Tama Arlene Kivert Fogelman. SC: And when were you born? TF: 10-01-43. SC: And can you talk a little about where you have lived all your life? About the different places where you have lived. And then we'll move on, and I'll come back and talk to you specifically. TF: What I recall is growing up in Northampton, PA. I got married and lived in Allentown the rest of my life. MAXINE KLEIN: Didn't you live in Hazleton first? TF: Yes, but I don't recall it -- what do you want? SC: So your family lived in Hazleton first? TF: Originally, that's where I was born, my family was born in Hazleton. But my family moved to Northampton when I was three. SC: Do you remember the address in Northampton? TF: 2155 Main Street. SC: And where have you lived since then? What addresses? TF: Well I lived----what's that apartment? MK: Before that - you lived--.when you first married--you lived in Harrisburg. TF: Right -- it's so long ago. For a brief time, I lived in Harrisburg, on Riverside Drive, when we were first married. It was a new high-rise building. Then we moved to Allentown -- to Valley View apartment. Then we moved to 1237 Rye Street -- a little ranch house. Then we moved to 2434 Livingston Street, Allentown, and then we built this house. SC: And that's a normal progression in life. SC: Can you state your full name and when you were born and where you have lived? MK: Maxine Kivert Tannenbaum Klein. I was born May 23, 1942. I lived at 2155 Main Street in Northampton. Then we lived at 1137 Lehigh Parkway East in Allentown. Then I got married, and we lived in the Jordan Park Apartments. Then I lived for two years in Fort Benning, GA, with my husband, during all the "race goings-on" in the early '60's. Then we lived on South 12th Street in an apartment, when we came back to Allentown. Then we bought a house on 21st St. in Allentown, 1118 North 21st St. Then we moved to Muhlenberg Street -- 840 N. Muhlenberg Street. Then my first husband died. Soon after, I bought another house on Hampton Road -- 1436 Hampton Road in Allentown. And then I lived in an apartment behind Wegman's for two years. And now, we live in Orefield. Lots of places! SC: Tama, let's start with you -- the two of you with the history -- if you remember background from your parents, grandparents, you can chime in at this point and then we'll be more specific. SC: So Tama, can you talk a little bit about what you know about your parents, their names? Where they have lived? Also, your grandparents and your great-grandparents--as much as you know about your family -- going back even before they lived in the United States - whatever you know. TF: My parents were both born in this country. My father was born in Northampton, our mother was born in Freeland, PA. My grandparents -- I don't remember where they were from. Oh, Detroit? MK: No. Our grandparents were from -- on mother's side, on the Chenetz side -- my mother's name was Mae Chenetz. She was the third of five children. Her father came from Ukraine --- near Kiev. Her biological mother was from there, too. Her name was Tilly or Tama -- they [the grandparents] came to America in the early 1900's after the turn of the century. They were not married when they came over, they posed as sister and brother. But I think they were engaged. Somewhat scandalous -- they shared the same room coming over. TF: I think that was common! MK: This is mother! This is what mother said. They came over and they did marry here. Then they lived in Freeland. When they first came here they lived in McAdoo, and my grandfather's name was Morris Chenetz, my mother's father. His father came over also, Moses Chenetz. They lived in Freeland and initially he had a backpack, and he was a peddler. Then he and his brother Barney opened a men's store in downtown Freeland. Then many years later they opened another store in Hazleton. That's where the family grew up, mostly in Freeland, supported by that store. SC: Was the store a clothing store? MK: Men's clothing - Chenetz Men Store. SC: Did they purchase their goods from New York? MK: Yes. They were not tailors. He purchased it from all the well known brand names of men's clothing at that time. His first wife, Tilly, died around 1919, after she delivered their fourth child, which was premature. Both the child and then she died from infection. As my mother had told us, antiseptic methods hadn't reached Freeland yet. She got an infection from an intervention by the doctor, whatever, and then she died. Then our grandfather married again, six months later. He went to Chicago and came back with his new wife, didn't tell the children, [just] came back. Her name was Lottie Holstein. She really raised our mother and the other two from that time on, and then she [Lottie] went on to have two more daughters. One of them is still living, the second youngest one, Evelyn Diamond, lives in Baltimore, no, Washington. So, let's see what happened then with Mother. Well, then she met our father, Saul. TF: She worked at the Five and Ten Cent Store, across the street. MK: Is that where she worked? No, she didn't work there. TF: Well, where did she work? MK: She worked as a bookkeeper for one of the furniture stores -- Landau. TF: Mother never told me that. MK: Oh, yeah, she worked as a bookkeeper. TF: Well, maybe that's where she met daddy? MK: That's where she met daddy. Daddy came up with a friend, who was a manager for J.J. Newberry -- the friend was. They had to come up to the Hazleton store. He came up with him from Northampton. My mother said she saw them across the street. Their place was right on Main Street. She was looking out the window and she saw these two guys and she and her friend went down to meet them and then my father said, then, he saw this woman who was built like a "you know what!" SC: Well built? MK: Anyway they met on the corner right outside J.J. Newberry. Then he would drive up from Northampton in his Model T Ford -- which had no top on it. He said he had to drive up the mountain backwards because it didn't have enough engine energy, so he had to come up backwards. He'd come up and he'd bring her home from school. He would wait outside the school for her. And she was annoyed because she was dating this guy, and she was dating that guy, and there he was, he was always there--he was just there. Anyway, they eloped. SC: What was his name? MK: Saul Kivert and he used the middle initial A. but he wasn't given one. He just thought he needed one. I should go back to his parents. Shouldn't I? SC: Yes, but what year were the two of them born? MK: My mother was born in 1912 and my father was born in 1909 -- the youngest of six children. SC: So this was in the 1920's -- the Model T? MK: Oh yes, he bought his first car for 10 dollars. His father was named Samuel Kivert. Samuel was from a shtetl in Russia called-- they lived in Verner [sounds like], although Samuel himself was from another shtetl called Peinyan [soundslike]. But he and his wife, Hilda [in Yiddish, Hindelaya] -- her maiden name was Shaefer -lived in Verner. When they decided to come to America, it might have been in 1902. He came over, leaving her and three -- well four -- one had died of measles, so there were three remaining children there - to make a living here. His wife had a sister living in Bethlehem -- she had come before. She had married Coleman, that was her married name. The only way you could come was if you had someone to sponsor you or if you knew where you could find employment. Now, my father's father, Samuel, was a tailor -- so what I understand is that the family was tailors for three hundred years back. They were just all tailors. There was a job available in the Lehigh Valley because it was a burgeoning industrial area, so he came under the sponsorship of his sister-in-law. Where he lived, I don't know where. He probably lived with them, but I don't know -- for two years, until he earned enough money to bring over Hilda and the three children. They must have come over around 1905, as far as I can guess. Then they had two more children, Ida and my father, who was the youngest. Anna, Joe and Arthur were born in Europe, and Ida and dad were born here. My grandfather was a tailor, but then I understand that he opened up a store in Bath. They lived in Bath then. He opened up a store that sold clothing for the farmers -- that sort of thing. TF: Overalls. MK: Overalls and that kind of thing. His father was a tailor also and they custom-made clothes. There was an article in the paper at one time. My father and his father had made this huge pair of overalls for an enormous farmer. Each of them stood on a separate leg and the newspaper took their picture. SC: Was that the Morning Call? MK : Yes. Anyway, his father, Samuel, became ill -- he had a nervous breakdown and could no longer work. Our father, Saul, knew that somebody had to do something. He went downstairs and took his father's sewing machine apart and put it back together again -- to try to figure out how it works. Then he took a garment apart (a pair of pants) and put it back together again to learn how to do this. He then became a tailor. He opened up a tailor shop. He was about 16 or 17. He had a lot of other jobs, but ultimately he opened up his own tailor shop. A couple of years later, when he was around 19 or 20, he met my mother -- they got married in 1931. TF: Excuse me one second. Where was that tailor shop? When he was young? MK: I don't know--it was in Northampton. I don't know--.He said his parents lived above the Five and Dime or Millers -- somewhere there. I don't know if his tailor shop was somewhere else. SC: So they lived in Bath, but the tailor shop was in Northampton? MK: I think they moved to Northampton. His parents moved to Northampton, as well. TF: But when Zadie [Yiddish for grandfather] had that nervous breakdown, daddy had to go to Allentown to bring him over every day to work in the tailor shop. MK: That's right. TF: So, I don't know in-between there. When Zadie and his wife and family moved to Allentown, maybe they lived with Aunt Annie. MK: They lived with their oldest daughter Annie on South West Street. With Anna and Dave Plotnick [?] -- his [Saul's] parents did. Then he got sick. It was around 1920 because it was right around the time that the Allentown State Hospital opened up. He was hospitalized in New Jersey for a while. He was originally hospitalized in New Jersey because he was enormously overweight, and he had lost 150 lbs. in about six months. and he kind of lost his mind also. TF: That is what they say-- MK: This is just how things are. We don't know what really happened. Personally, I don't know how any of them can stay sane - living in Europe with the pogroms and the whole thing and coming here--.it was just perilous. TF: The thing was they had family here for them to come to. It wasn't like going to the Lower East Side. That must have been a whole different experience. MK: Yeah but they still didn't speak any English -- there's a whole lot of them--not only them, that whole generation that came over. SC: So initially they did go to the Lower East Side? MK: No, they never went - neither parent -- my mother's nor my father's parents ever lived in New York. My mother's family went right to McAdoo-- to the coal regions in Pennsylvania, and our father came right to the Lehigh Valley. SC: And, there was a small Jewish community in the coal region? MK: Yes, absolutely. TF: And synagogues -- even in Northampton there was a synagogue. MK: Yes, our grandfather was one of the founders of that synagogue. In Northampton -- there used to be one. That synagogue is defunct now. TF: I remember going to it. MK: I do, too. TF: We took you -- that's good. MK: Charles Glazier and I used to run up and down the back steps. TF: That's all the kids did--.you went in the basement and played - you didn't really sit at the services. MK: Am I giving too much information? SC: No, not at all. MK: So where were we here? Daddy started the tailor shop. SC: That is fascinating. So he was mechanical -- in so many ways. MK: I guess he was. And he was artistic also-- later in life. He painted and did needlepoint . We have hundreds of pieces of things that he did. He was very prolific. And then in the meantime, he also baked. He baked challah. TF: Yes, he taught us all to bake challah. MK: I taught him now to make challah! TF: Oh, you did? Oh well. MK: He baked cookies--. TF: But he baked challahs for so many people's Bar Mitzvahs and things. SC: Did he like school? MK: No, because he stuttered. He had a speech impediment and he stuttered very markedly. He used to perform in minstrel shows in Northampton. There were minstrel shows that they would put on. And, of course, when he sang, he didn't stutter. He liked doing that. TF: He and Benny Glazier were "Endmen" on the minstrel show. They made up stuff -- they forgot -- they made up stories, whatever. MK: He was a comedian -- my father -- he really was. By the time I grew up, or I have a recollection of him, I remember him stuttering -- but not nearly as bad as he did when he was young. TF: Also in high school he worked for the baseball team. He was the water boy and he got paid. He was always involved with things. MK: He also learned to drive when he was nine years old! His father bought a car when my father was just nine -- he was the youngest and he would drive! People would see him driving down the street and they didn't think anybody was driving the car. He was very small as a child. When he graduated high school he was only 5'6". When he was twenty one he was 5'11". So he was really small. And then, not only did he work for the baseball team, but he also worked for Schisler Funeral Home. SC: Was that the Blue Mountain Baseball League? Do you remember? MK: I don't know? TF: It was high school. SC: So it wasn't one of the adult sort of semi-pro? TF: Not that I recall. MK: When he was in high school, Schlisler would call him if they needed someone to drive the hearse. So he would get out of school, and he would go and drive this hearse-- and he was little and he had this big black top hat on. He said that was probably all they could really see. Sometimes he would have to go with them to help move the body. Bring the bodies from the place that they died into the funeral home. They would put them inside a basket -- they would carry the bodies in a basket. One time he was picking this person up and his hands went through everything -- the person must have been dead a long time. Well, he got so sick, he never went back again. That was the end of his job at Schisler Funeral Home. TF: I don't think I ever heard that story. MK: Oh God, I've heard it many times. TF: You heard it? MK: Yes, many times. This is not really related? SC: No, it is -- it absolutely is. It's showing his expertise -- different types of expertise of many things that will make him a businessman. MK: He saved up a lot of money. He had a bank account and from the time he was very young, he believed in saving money. He always saved money all through his life, no matter what they did, they always saved money. And when he was young, his next in line, his sister Ida, was a little older -- none of his siblings were that particularly gorgeous-- but Ida was the prettiest one of all. We think our father was very handsome, also -- they kind of got better as they went -- she improved! But Ida was the apple of her mother's eye. My father had said that when he was in high school, he had saved up about four hundred dollars, which was a lot of money then. His mother went into his bank account, took the money out without asking him, to buy Ida a fur coat, which, obviously, he never forgot. TF: But he didn't say anything -- this was his family. Can you imagine? Oh My God. MK: So she could be attractive and get a nice man and all that. Anyway, that was part of his character. He never objected, he always loaned money to other family members. TF: He was family -- he was very attached to family, that's the thing. No matter what! When anyone in the family needed help, he did everything he could. SC: So he was born in 1909 and when he was sixteen he took apart the machine. MK: Approximately that. It was in the early 20's because his father was in the hospital then, the State Hospital. SC: He must have been artistic, he must have had a sense of (being very smart) taking things apart visually and putting them back together again, and he saved money. So he had a sense of how to be a businessman. MK: How to get out of where he was and into what he wanted to do. TF: And don't forget he also then had the dry cleaning in the tailor shop. MK: Oh, that's right. He started dry cleaning also. TF: I can see that "big unit" in the tailor shop. MK: See, I don't remember much of that because I wasn't born yet. TF: And, he had that club every week. The Men's Suit Club. He'd go into New York and buy fabric. Customer's would come in and pick out the fabric. He'd measure them, and he would make magnificent men's suits. MK: Yes, we have pictures of suits he made for us. Every Easter he would always make suits for us -- we all had matching suits with hats. TF: And he made all my clothing, skirts -- "skurts", I used to say-- that's how I spoke! MK: He also did most of Mother's shopping when he would go into New York. He'd buy her clothes. TF: Well, he'd bring us all things. We always loved whatever he bought. MK: Everything he bought was always "right" for each one. TF: He loved Macy's. He'd always go to Macy's - R.H. Macy's. MK: That was his "hot spot" TF: Of retail. SC: Did you ever go to New York with him? MK: Yes. SC: Did you ever go to Macy's with him? MK: I remember going to the Lower East Side. TF: We'd go shopping there, then he took us shopping to the stores. MK: I remember going to the Lower East Side and going to some of the fabric places he went to, then some of the delicatessens. Then in the early 50's he took me to my first Broadway show, which was Guys and Dolls, in 1950 with the original cast and then two years later, they took me again. SC: Which show? MK: South Pacific. We saw the original -- South Pacific. TF: I think maybe we all went. Did Randi? MK: No. TF: But she was born in 1953. MK: Yes, but she wouldn't go in 1953. TF: No, not in '53. But she was little when we took her. I remember we used to tell her -- she'd sit in the back seat with Mama and Pop. We'd tell her to hold her breath as she was going under the tunnel . MK: Oh, you're so mean! TF: Well, I guess she knew it was funny. MK: Yeah, he was very proactive in terms of family. SC: Do you know, just as a question, before we get into the business, what year he took over the business from his father and when he added the dry cleaning and the suit club? MK: I don't know--that was all before I was born. Well, he and mother got married in 1931. Did he have the tailor shop then or was he still running his father's? TF: I don't have any memory of his father's business. My memory is he had the tailor shop - 2155. MK: He had it in Hazleton. TF: That's right in Hazleton. MK: Right after they were married, a week later, they convinced my mother's oldest sister, Ethel, and her fiancé Sam Copland, to elope as well. Then the two families lived together in the same apartment in Hazleton. TF: Alter Street. I can see the sign, Copland and Kivert. MK: They opened a tailor and dry cleaning there. SC: And the name of the street was? MK: Alter Street in Hazleton. And the name of the outfit was Copland and Kivert. We have a picture of that somewhere -- Copland and Kivert. TF: So what was that dry cleaning or tailor? I think it was dry cleaning, too. MK: Yes it was. TF: We lived up above. I don't remember that so clearly, but we would go visit a lot after we left there and moved to Northampton. MK: Then they moved to Northampton after about two or three years. Tama was born there and Ethel and Sam had their first daughter, who they also named Tama. Tama Lee. TF: She lives in town. MK: I don't know if you know Tama Lee Barski? TF: She has a lot of energy and does a lot of good in the community. MK: So the two Tamas lived together, and the parents lived together, and then our parents and this Tama came back to Northampton after about two or three years, and he opened his own, 2155 -- they must have bought the house then -- there. TF: I don't know -- I know they first lived in the apartment, in the back somewhere. MK: I thought that was when they were first married. TF: Well, I remember. MK: So it must have been with you then. So they didn't have a house right away. TF: I don't know where the tailor shop was --maybe he rented? MK: Maybe the tailor shop was under the house. TF: I don't know if they bought it, maybe they just rented. MK: Well, they didn't own that house 2155. They rented it from the neighbors, Annie and Charlie Driscoll [?], who lived next door. SC: That was in Northampton--on Main Street? That was in the 1930's? MK: Correct. SC: So we can look that up - on Ancestry. MK: Go ahead. TF: I just didn't want to forget that our father had this vision, what excited him when he saw a pair of ladies slacks -- was how the pockets were and the zipper had to all line up. SC: So the brother-in-law stayed in Hazleton but moved over to the store. MK: Chenetz Men's Shop. SC: That was his father-in-law's. MK: Father-in-law, and then he owned it also. They ended up owning it together I believe. And it was on Broad Street in Hazleton for as long as I know. TF: Well, Tama Lee moved here after Moishe died and that's when the store closed, I guess. MK: So, their third generation - the other Tama -- her husband -- they moved up from Philadelphia and he went into the men's shop also--.and Uncle Charlie, my mother's brother, worked there for a long time also. That was sort of the family business. TF: Then he moved to Northampton and worked in the factory for a while. MK: Uncle Charlie did -- yes, he did. My Uncle was not doing well. He and his wife and children --- they had a lot of problems. So, my father in his usual way, decided to move them all to Northampton and Charlie, his brother-in-law, would work in the factory, and they'd get the children into the good school system in Northampton and straighten them all out. That lasted for a couple of years and then my Uncle Charlie decided he was working too hard and wanted more money, and my father said forget that, and that was the end of that. They moved back to Hazleton. SC: Do either one of you have memories of your childhood -- where you went to school and any type of specific memories and then when you got married and were you connected to the shops or the factory? TF: Oh yes, we were very connected. First of all the tailor shop was under where we lived, and the factory was just a block away. So every day after school, I'd stop in there. SC: What was the address of the factory? MK: It was between 20 and 21st on Main Street -- 20 something Main Street. It would have been an odd number. SC: Was that an existing building? MK: It was a bank building. I have memories, when my father started the factory. It was right after the war. During the war, women, obviously, went back to work and had a lot of men's jobs, and they started wearing pants. The only pants that were made at that time for women were tailored like men's pants. After the war, my father thought this was going to be a big thing. He never had his own brand -- he was a contractor. So he went into New York, and he met up with a man named, S.M. Elowsky, who owned four or five different manufacturing companies. He wanted to make women's tailored pants, because he knew how to make tailored pants. He opened the factory in around 1945 and opened around 1946 -- right when the war ended. He used to go to Atlanta -- it was very difficult to get machinery because this was after the war and this wasn't readily available. So he bought a lot of machinery in Atlanta, Georgia as well as in other areas. I have a doll that came from that trip. I have two very favorite dolls that came from trips that he made to Atlanta. He would go into Rich's Department Store in Atlanta. The first doll was Esmerelda, which I still have in my curio cabinet. The second doll I named Sally Waters. She was one of those dolls where the eyes - it was a mama doll. Anyway, on the one trip when he came back, he was opening the factory in this bank building, I remember standing on the front porch of this. It was just a block away from where the two streets of Northampton come together. I can still see him. He was bringing machinery home from Atlanta. Someone was driving--- it was some kind of van car that they had in the 30's, and it was loaded with machinery. He was bringing it up, he was going to go around the back of the building and was going to bring it in the back of the building. As he comes through this intersection -- he is hanging on the outside of the back -- hanging on to some machinery - his whole body is outside of the car. I'm sure he didn't come home from Atlanta that whole way. But, I saw him flying up the road, he's waving. That was such a clear memory. That was around 1945-1946 -- I had to be four years old. TF: He was strong as a bull. He was so strong. He helped carry our breakfront up the whole flight of steps at Valley View Apartments. MK: My mother would send me down the alley, and I could go to the factory whenever I wanted to. There was a little office where the secretary sat -- her name was Dorothy. TF: Dottie. MK: Was her name Dorothy Wahl? TF: No. MK: Anyway, her name was Dorothy. And, I would sit there and sharpen a lot of pencils and things like that. I felt so important -- I was four or five. Then other times, I would go to the spreading department -- where they would spread all the fabric before they cut it on the big, long tables that were located in the basement of the building. I remember sitting on the stairs that led down to the basement watching the men and they had these fluorescent lights -- it was very bright and lit -- even though it was a very dank kind of basement. I remember they had calendars up with war pin-up girls, Betty Grable and all of these--.and I learned the word "cheesecake" from them. TF Oh, she's a rotten kid! MK: Right -- they never took the calendars down, even though I was there. GAIL EISENBERG: I remember seeing those types of things. MK: I was at the factory a lot - just because I had nothing else to do, and I found it endlessly fascinating. TF: And, she was such a good girl -- it's not like she tore places apart. MK: No, I would just sit and watch. TF: I liked taking her with me with my friends. MK: She schlepped [Yiddish for dragged] me everywhere in Northampton. SC: And, of course all the cutters were men. MK: They were all men, oh yes, and all the sewers were women. Only the cutters and some of the foremen were men -- I'm trying to think what else--.no, that's it. All the rest were all women. GE: And they made women's pants. This was new at the time. MK: New, right. Then they also made - S.M. Elowsky had a company that made children's clothes -- Derby. All bottoms, always bottoms -- they never made tops. SC: In the 1950's did he make blue jeans? MK: No, never made jeans - always tailored pants. TF: And then maybe they made skorts? MK: They made skirts. TF: Like pants and skirts. MK: And just regular skirts they made, too. GE: We'll get into the business later. SC: What were your memories? TF: Related to the factory you mean? SC: And just your memories growing up in the area. TF: It was very nice. It was easy. You could walk anywhere any time of day and at night time you weren't frightened to walk the street or anything. MK: No, no. TF: Northampton was a booming little town. They had a few department stores, believe it or not. Maybe you heard it from other interviews. Lerner's , which was a Jewish family, Coleman's, which was a Jewish family - lovely department stores. They had everything -- bras, nightgowns, children's clothes. MK: Miller's? TF: But they weren't Jewish. MK: But we went there anyway. TF: Oh yeah. I'm just saying, the whole town was thriving and it was a great little town. There was one movie. I went to the movies a lot with mother. GE: Is that still the "Roxy"? MK: Yes, I went there all the time, too. TF: We lived just a block up from there. SC: Do you remember who owned Miller's? TF: Well I guess they were the Miller's! But they weren't Jewish. I can't recall right now. SC: But it wasn't Harvey? MK: Doesn't sound right. I think I would recognize it because my father would call him by his first name. We always like to go into Miller's -- they had a wonderful - in their basement they had a big hardware section. We got a lot of things there. He liked the hardware section at Miller's. GE: Where were these department stores? MK: On Main Street -- right across from where the factory was. TF: It was the "Main" street. GE: Because I've been to the Roxy. MK: It would be from the Roxy sort of north. TF: Well, up to 21st and down to 17th. MK: Right, between 17th and 21st was all the businesses. Above 21st was just residence. SC: Were most of the store owners Jewish? Because that was true in South Bethlehem. MK: A lot were. As she said, Coleman's, Lerner's. TF: How about the cotton shop? MK: Oh, Kroupes [?] -- that was our cousin. The furniture store, Glazier's -- Northampton Furnishing. TF: Well, that was Glaziers, but that was also Roth. MK: No, Roth was another one. TF: Oh, that's right. SC: Were they related to the Glazier's furniture store in Allentown. MK: Yes, yes, yes. TF: It's all relatives. MK: I can tell you a funny story about that - one that goes way back. This is an interesting story. When our grandfather, Sam Kivert, was at the dock in -- I think they said he left from Latvia -- what was the port there -- Riga, maybe? He was on the dock, ready to leave to come to America. He met another man, whose last name was Zowman -- who had a little boy -- his son with him, who also was going to America. The son's name was Cecil. TF: Oh, for Heaven's Sake. Well, maybe they have some of that. MK: They may, I don't know. SC: No, we don't. MK: Cecil was about six at the time. Cecil and his father were going to America. I don't know if the mother had died already -- I don't remember that. I got this story from Cecil, when he was close to 90. So they were standing on the dock, and they started talking, and they realized that they were going to the same place in America -- into the Lehigh Valley. I don't know why Mr. Zowman was going there -- I mean I don't know who his relatives were. So they made the passage together. Cecil said he just ran all over the ship all the time. They got to America, and they remained friendly. Zowman's name was changed to Salman here, and he worked for a number of years, he got lung cancer a few years after he came here, and he died when Cecil was an early teenager. Fast forward several generations, Cecil's daughter or Mr. Zowman's granddaughter married Sam Kivert's grandson. GE: Oh my goodness. MK: Buddy and Carol Kivert. So now we are related to the Salmans. And then the Salman's married into the Glazier's. So we are sort of -- by marriage -- related to all of them. TF: And then the Colemans. MK: We are related to some of the Colemans. TF: But I can't remember who. Somehow we were never friendly with many of the Bethlehem people. It's the strangest thing. MK: No, they came earlier and as was the habit in many of the immigrants, the earlier ones looked down on the ones that came later. They were more peasant-like. The earlier ones were more well-established. They didn't really want to be so associated with these lowly peasants that came over almost a generation after they did. I think that is a factor. TF: Oh the Coleman's. I don't know if that was a fact, but just that the one wife of one the Coleman's was a snob. Nobody was good enough for her. She really didn't even want to be Jewish. I think that is what it was. People like that! MK: We are also related to a lot of the Coleman's in the Lehigh Valley, as well. Any of these old families, I'm sure you'd find it in any small community, if you go back far enough and they all came over at the same time, how many people did they have to marry anyway? That was an interesting story from the boat. TF: That was the first time I heard that one. MK: Cecil told me that one. TF: Well, you didn't tell me. MK: Oh, I might have, sorry. TF: Maybe you did--you're right. SC: Do you have any memories from childhood that you can share? TF: Well I don't know how it would relate to what you are interested in. As I said, life there was very nice, it was very easy. My parents were known in the community -- they were liked. So I didn't ever have to deal with anti-semitism. MK: I didn't either. TF: That is something I didn't feel. I'm sure it was there somewhere. I know my father was very friendly with the Priest at the Catholic Church. He would go there a lot. Maybe they drank -- I don't know what they did there. I'm just saying that mother played bridge with a lot of the neighbors --so, it was a very nice life. It was a very nice life. I don't have any complaints. I had friends, boyfriends -- they didn't keep me from having boyfriends, or anything like that-- which a lot of people did. They didn't let their children mingle with non-Jewish. I guess my parents felt, why take that away? But, I did marry a Jewish man. MK: I guess the question is, "why did mother and dad move to Allentown?" TF: Oh, that's true. That's right. That's why they moved--.they wanted me to be exposed more. That's right. I forgot that part. And, I understood it wasn't anything they were angry with me about -- they just felt it was a better move for their children. Not just me -- for Maxine, too. MK: And, at the time, most of the Jewish families that lived in Northampton had already started to move to Allentown. TF: Oh, yes, that's right. I think the Roths had moved. MK: Roths had moved and the Levine -- from Levine and Sons - Morris and Helen moved. And, the Weins - Bernie. TF: Oh yes, a lot of their friends had moved. MK: And Bennie and Ann Glazier had built a house in the West End. All the Jewish friends had already moved. My parents didn't really feel the need to move because the factory was there [in Northampton]. He was still active in the factory. TF: He drove to the factory every day from Allentown. SC: So when did they move to Allentown? TF: In my senior year in high school. MK: 1950. SC: When they moved then, where did you live in Allentown? TF: 1137 Lehigh Parkway East. It's still there. It's at the tip of a little hill. It's right at the five points near the Parkway. We were invited to go visit there a few years ago. When we went, we laughed so hard -- what those people did to the house! Naturally, we'd say that! They closed off doors and windows. The little dressing room of mother and dad's room -- they made it into a little reading room. We thought that was so funny! MK: But the kitchen, it was forty years -- it was all the same appliances -- they never changed anything in the kitchen -- it was quite amazing. TF: It was a nice kitchen. MK: After we moved to Allentown - that was in 1950, Tama went to her senior year at Allen High -- which was hard - because all her friends were in Northampton. TF: I played hooky a lot and went back. I'm in the yearbook of Northampton. That's the school I go to for all the reunions -- because I knew everybody as young people. But, there were nice people at Allen -- I made friends with some of the people there--.that was not a problem. What else? MK: Soon after we moved here, our father (during the War Years -- during the 40's), he had the tailor shop during the day and Tama remembers, he also worked for the pants factory at night. TF: In Northampton. MK: The Billera Pants Factory had a government contract to make -- GE: This wasn't his pants factory? This was another pants factory? MK: No, they had a government contract to make army uniforms. If you worked in government, you didn't have to go into the service. He was a little bit old to be drafted at the time. He was in his late 20's when the war broke out. TF: They were drafting -- married men with children and older men. MK: So he went to work at the pants factory at night to avoid having to go into the army. Tama remembers sometimes he would fall asleep sitting on the toilet -- he would work all these jobs, all these hours. SC: But, he learned the pants business MK: And how to do a whole production, he was in charge of production. He was a supervisor. He learned that then. Then after the war, he felt comfortable enough to open his own factory. MK: He worked very hard. What he would do--.he was in the factory by 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning. They would make the goods and very often at the end of the day he would drive to New York to deliver the goods. There were no superhighways then, it was the old 22 -- he would take a load in, deliver it. TF: But, he developed a very good reputation for quick delivery and anything else. Whatever he promised, he made good. I was just reading what mother said in this interview, that he was a "go-getter" -- that's what she called him! MK: He also smoked three packs of cigarettes a day at the time -- in addition to working all hours. Well, when he was 45, in 1954, he had a massive heart attack. Fortunately he survived it. He was in the hospital for six weeks -- that's what they did then. He had to stop smoking. TF: He stopped completely and never smoked again. MK: Yes he did. He did -- he started again -- smoking. TF: He told me he never smoked -- couldn't stand the smell of smoke. MK: That's after the second heart attack. TF: You are right. Go ahead. MK: So he had a heart attack. Randi, her oldest daughter, was about two at the time. So he completely had to change his lifestyle -- which he fortunately did. By this time, Tama's husband - Jules Fogelman -- he was doing something else for a while -- but he came into the factory to learn. TF: He learned, he made little aprons -- he learned how to sew. My husband did. I still have that apron he made when I was pregnant with Randi. MK: I have mine that Arnold made. TF: Oh do you -- that's too funny! MK: Later, I got married in 1960. My husband, Arnold Tanenbaum, was very entrepreneurial and knew that he wanted to go into the business. He was thinking about other things, but my father wanted him to come into the business and it was something that came very natural to him. So he went into the business, too. My father was -- pretty much - able to exit this intense time and effort in the business. SC: But, when he went to New York -- he got to know all the manufacturers? MK: Oh, sure. He knew everybody and they knew him. He had a very good reputation. GE: But he was a contractor -- he didn't have his own brand. TF: Correct. GE: He just made the pants for the label. TF: And cutting. Some factories only did the sewing. We did the cutting and sewing. MK: The whole garment. TF: Not the designing. That was what the brand did. SC: Maybe we should switch over to the business now? GE: Did you want to ask them anything -- in regards to their own education? SC: We didn't really talk about that - your own education, both of you? Did you ever become involved in the business? TF: Well, I became involved in the business when my husband died -- so that was 16 years ago. SC: What was your education? TF: I only went to high school. That's as far as I went. I got married right after high school. SC: What year did you get married? TF: 1952. SC: And that makes sense -- that's the way it was supposed to work back then. TF: Well it was fine for me -- I'm not saying it's for anybody else. I was involved in the business -- to a point. It was very stressful. That's all I can say -- I'm glad it's all over. Do I have to talk about any more? SC: Was your husband in the armed services at all? TF: He was before we got married. SC: So you were a post-war wife in a way -- in '52. TF: It was the Korean War. He didn't go overseas. SC: But you were a post-war wife. That was '45 into the late '50's. That was the culture at the time. TF: If you had a question, I could answer. But I can't think of where to begin. GE: And I'm going to ask you questions about the business. SC: That's fine. I just wanted to put you into the cultural context. It made sense that you went to high school and did you become a housewife then? TF: Oh, yes. SC: That's the culture at that time--.you were supposed to do that, to be a good wife. TF: I wasn't even aware of it -- it's something I liked to do. MK: You worked at Hess's for a year - as a personal shopper. TF: Oh, yes, I forgot about that. I liked that. MK: She was very good at it too. GE: And Maxine, what was your education? MK: When I graduated high school, all I really wanted to do was get married and have children. The person that I loved then, Arnold Tanenbaum, he was in college still, so I went to school - Fairleigh-Dickinson in New Jersey to become a dental hygienist. Which I left after a year -- I didn't like it -- it was too boring. Then he graduated college and so we decided to get married then. I was 19 and he was 22. So we got married, and he went into the service. I was a housewife, and I would type theme papers for people who were going to Muhlenberg and things like that -- in my spare time. Then we went to Georgia for two years where our oldest daughter was born. Came back and Arnold went into the business. I worked at the factory a couple of summers, and I also worked when he was in basic training -- I worked at the factory. Sometimes I did finishing, sometimes I worked in the office. Also, for a while later, when it was Arnold and Jules in the factory, they were having some problems with quality control. And I came in for a while and I walked around and did quality control -- for a couple of weeks in the factory. When I was 38 -- I went to Nursing School to become an RN. I went to the Community College, Arnold was still alive then. I graduated in 1983, and he died a month after I graduated. I became an oncology nurse for a while, and then I remarried. I married Don Klein, and I went back to school to become a nurse practitioner when I was 53, and then I worked for Planned Parenthood for 12 years until I retired. So I have a little association with the factory, but not much, the rest has been in medicine. SC: We are going to the business now. GE: We've already talked a lot about the business, but we are going to continue to have that conversation. Some of these things you've talked about, and we'll just go through it real quickly. In terms of who started the business, a little bit the origins, maybe just to recap and to summarize. TF: Well, our father started the business. Maxine, you were clear about where he started -- underneath the house? MK: I don't know . .. you thought he had an early or a few machines in a garage or somewhere under the house. TF: Maybe the garage thing was behind the bank, as you thought. MK: I remember it was '46 that he was in the bank building then. So part of the factory was in the bank building, but the pressing, the ultimate finishing -- where you put the belts in and all that kind of stuff, and the pressing - was done under our house -- a block up on Main Street. All the garments had to be taken out of the factory when they were finished and brought up to the finishing room. The factory was called Tama Manufacturing. When I was old enough to realize what had happened, I said to my father, "why didn't you name it after me?" He said, "I did, I named it after both of you. It's the first two letters of each of your names." GE: He was very smart! TF: Maybe that was it! MK: Oh, I don't know, it was so funny. I laughed at the time. I understood why he named it that. GE: Just so we understand, at this time did he already give up the tailor shop? MK: Yes. When he started the factory, he gave up the tailor shop because the pressers were then taken over by the factory -- it was part of the factory production. GE: Did he sell the tailor shop? MK: No, I think he just closed it. Because it was right there, he just closed it up and did this. GE: And just converted the machinery that he was using for pressing as a dry cleaner now became part of that area -- the finishing. MK: He probably had one or two other machines there. GE: Now, which manufacturer he was contracting for? And which brands? MK: Yes, right, a lot of different ones throughout the year. I know Derby was the children's line. TF: Then there was the Junior Rite. MK: What was the main one? TF: What was the one with the woman's name? A name that you knew-- MK: Liz Clairborne -- that was later. He made for Liz Clairborne - that was after Arnold and Jugge [nickname of Jules] were already there. The early years were mostly S. M. Elowski and his companies. GE: Tell us -- would you spell the name? The manufacturer that he principally worked with was - his partner was whom? MK: It wasn't a partner -- well actually he had a partner when he first opened his business. It was Jack Waitz. He decided that he needed a partner so when he first opened the factory in the bank, Jack Waitz (which is now -- Waitz -- I think they do -- advertising--) TF: Esther Halperin's brother -- Jack Waitz. Her maiden name was Waitz. GE: Oh My Goodness! Wow! MK: So, Jack Waitz was only a partner for a year or two. I don't even remember him. I don't even remember that he was a partner, I was very little, and I don't remember that name. TF: Evan Picone -- I can think of more, too. MK: That was another one -- he worked for Evan Picone. So, he separated with Jack -- he bought him out after a year. My father always had trouble with a partner because he put so much of himself into it. He thought it wasn't fair -- no one else would ever work as hard as he did. So he just wanted to stay on good terms and end the business. They didn't have a fight or anything. GE: So he was the sole proprietor and he did contract work for -- MK: S.M. Elowski -- something like that. GE: And, it was just for whatever brands S. M. Elowski owned. MK: He worked for him for many years -- maybe until Jugge came in. Then he started to move in other directions. GE: So your father's major customer was S. M. Elowski - until his son-in-law joined the business. Do you know if for S. M. Elowski, your father was his sole supplier? MK: No. He had others, he was large -- he was in New York. GE: Even after when your husband entered the business and later when your husband (Tama) entered the business, did his relationship with S.M. Elowski last for a very long time? TF: I think so. MK: As long as S. M. was involved -- S. M. was old -- older than my father. He was a real pioneer. TF: I think he was still when Jugge came in -- he was still involved. MK: I think so, too. Then they moved--.there were other brands. Those brands were sort of fading a little bit. Other brands were coming up. TF: They were getting more offers from other companies. So he diversified. Then my husband decided to put all his eggs in one basket. MK: That was after Arnold died, that was much later. TF: Right. MK: In the early days they worked for Evan Picone, Liz Clairborne, and then they got Alfred Dunner. GE: Bobbi Brooks? MK: Pandora. GE: Were all these manufacturers in New York? MK: Yes, and then they got Alfred Dunner. GE: Oh! MK: Alfred Dunner made a different kind of pants than what they normally would make. They always made pants with a set in waistband and a set zipper. But, Alfred Dunner made a pull on pants, which involved slightly different machinery. GE: And, this was about what time period? TF: Well, my mother-in-law was still alive. She's the one who introduced them. MK: Oh, really, I didn't know that. That's interesting. GE: And not surprisingly, because Alfred Dunner was for a little more mature woman. TF: It really made a hit -- it was a big money-maker. MK: Actually, it eliminated a lot of the operators that were zipper setters. At that time before Arnold died (my husband was already in the business, so that was in the early'60's). GE: At this time they were already producing for Alfred Dunner. MK: Right. But, they still needed to keep other firms that made the tailored pants so they wouldn't lose their very skilled operators for the other garments. My father believed it and Arnold and Jugge, at the time too, that you couldn't put your eggs in one basket. Because you never know when someone goes out of this business. So they always worked for a lot of different people. Who did Uncle Paul work for? He used to come in as an inspector. TF: That's right. You'll have to ask Aunt Evie. MK: My mother's brother-in-law used to be up in Hazleton. He had been a mattress maker. That went out of business, and he started to get into the garment industry. He started working for a company, and he was a supervisor to check quality. He ended up coming into our factory because we were making things for the company he was working for. TF: Was it someone up in the coal region? MK: No, it was in New York. He was there, too. During the '70's, the manufacturing began to go to China and Mexico. GE: To China that early? MK: In the '70's the factory had trouble getting stuff made there, so they decided to diversify. They opened another factory called Penn Garment that opened in Allentown. They made very specific things that I don't remember. GE: Separate from Tama Manufacturers? MK: Yes, but the three of them were owners. My father, Jugge and Arnold were owners of that. Also they got a new piece of machinery from Sweden, called Eton. They took another building behind the factory to install this machinery. It was a conveyor system that would bring the garment from one operator to another, so you wouldn't have to have somebody moving the garments all over. TF: It was supposed to be more efficient. MK: They did that. That was kind of a big deal. There was someone who pretty much just ran the Eton production. TF: How did we get involved with Ed Posner? MK: Eddie Posner had a factory, and he lost his factory. Her family was in the garment also - Beth. We were very friendly with Ed. Arnold was very friendly with Eddie. When we opened the Penn Garment factory, which I think was on Stefko Boulevard. I think that was where it was. Eddie agreed to run it. He ran that factory for them. GE: Do you know what this factor produced? MK: Ladies pants. When Arnold died, Eddie bought that factory and paid us out over the years, until it was paid off and then it went under, because there was too much competition. So right before Arnold died, of course he didn't know he was going to die, because he died very suddenly. He decided, he and Jugge . . . Jugge decided that he wanted out of the business. TF: To retire. MK: So they decided to--.what did they have a buy-out or something? TF: Oh yeah, that's how it was set up. MK: Arnold was going to buy Jugge's portion and just own it individually. He knew it had to be completely restructured. We had a lot of people working there for the last 30-40 years that were earning a lot of money, and they were not really doing very much and had to be let go. He knew he didn't have the heart to do it and neither did Jugge. TF: Oh No. MK: They hired somebody else to restructure - someone who was a little harder and that was Sid Gross. Sid Gross had a factory that had been "Bee Line" and his factory went under. Arnold had made arrangements to meet with Sid on August 8, 1983. Sid was supposed to come to the factory, and they were going to have a meeting -- or maybe it was the 9th. In the meantime, our oldest daughter, Jill, was going to school at Drexel, and she was doing an internship at Tama Manufacturing. She was learning "time study" and she had a real interest in the factory. GE: So was she doing industrial engineering? MK: She ultimately switched to that. SC: What's her name? MK: Jill, and now it's Goodman. She married Bob Goodman. SC: And that was 1983? MK: Yes. On August 8 -- the day before he was supposed to meet with Sid, he didn't feel well and Jill took him to the hospital, and he died in the emergency room from a massive heart attack. The next morning, I get a call from Sid Gross -- an angry call, around 11:00 in the morning. "Where is Arnold? I had a meeting with him, and he's not here--" Sid was just what we needed at the factory at the time. I had to tell him, I said, "I'm sorry, he can't make it, he died." Well, Sid was devastated. So, what happened at that time was that the papers were on the lawyer's desk for Jugge to sign, and for Arnold to sign so Jugge would be bought out. They were never signed. Jugge owned the factory. Arnold wasn't there. Jugge didn't want to own the factory. Fortunately, Sid came in, and he was perfect. And then your son, Mark, came back ; he was living in California at the time. He came East to work in the factory. TF: Just to work. He didn't want to take it over. MK: It wasn't anything that Mark was really excited about. TF: No, actually when he came back he didn't go right to the factory. He'd come up and visit sometimes and the people there said why doesn't Mark come in and start working there. MK: What Jugge decided to do then, which was very good for him and the right thing to do and it helped everything else -- was to just go with Alfred Dunner. Because Alfred Dunner was doing all of their production in America. They wanted a quick delivery and good control, it was an easy garment to make. So Jugge wisely decided, we're just going to do this -- I don't really want to do this -- we're just doing to do what's easy. Well, Alfred Dunner exploded! Jugge couldn't even handle all the production there, so he started to contract out to other factories. They kept 3-4-5 other factories going -- Bernie Filler's factory. GE: Were they all local ones? MK: Yes. GE: Who were the different ones? MK: Bernie Filler, he had Blue Mountain. GE: Palmerton with Di Paolo -- he did a lot of the work. He did Chaps. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:20:53
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Tama Fogelman and Maxine Klein, August 7, 2013
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Maxine Kline and Tama Fogelman talk about how their father, Saul Kivert, became a tailor at sixteen years old to help support his family when Saul’s father, a tailor, had a nervous breakdown. During World War II, Saul worked at a pants factory and learned the business. After the war, Saul started Tama Manufacturing-- a tailored women’s pants company.
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LVTNT-24
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2013-08-07
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
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Mark Fogelman
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-21.xml
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5.4 October 12, 2013 Mark Fogelman, October 12, 2013 LVTNT-21 1:04:24 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Mark Fogelman Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 FogelmanMark_20131012 1.0:|23(3)|48(11)|79(7)|100(13)|129(2)|150(11)|181(3)|204(8)|227(8)|248(12)|275(10)|302(2)|329(7)|348(17)|367(5)|390(14)|421(4)|446(15)|469(16)|490(4)|511(6)|534(7)|557(10)|582(2)|607(3)|634(6)|661(9)|686(2)|711(8)|736(3)|759(7)|780(14)|785(18)|806(7)|831(8)|856(9)|881(15)|904(6)|929(6)|954(14)|977(11)|1002(8)|1031(8)|1054(6)|1075(6)|1090(13)|1115(11)|1134(15)|1155(17)|1174(9)|1197(2)|1214(13)|1233(13)|1250(13)|1277(15)|1310(11)|1335(9)|1354(4)|1379(6)|1394(16)|1415(12)|1430(10)|1445(15)|1464(13)|1473(10) 0 https://youtu.be/eCjQQ5rEc58 YouTube video 0 Mark's Background SC: Today is October 12, 2013, and our interview is, let’s just leave it at that for now. This is tape one. This might seem somewhat redundant because we have interviewed your mom and your aunt. It’s good to get different viewpoints, then they sort of melt together and you have confirmation with certain issues. If you could tell me your full name and your birth date to start with. This is going to be more question and answer right at the beginning.
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 ; MF: Mark Charles Fogelman and my birthday is January 18, 1960.
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 ; SC: Where were you born and where have you lived?
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 ; MF: I was born here in Allentown, Pennsylvania. 0 216 Education SC: Can you talk about your education - going back to the beginning?
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 ; MF: First I went to Nursery School at the JCC. I went to the Jewish Day School from Kindergarten to sixth grade, then went on to Trexler Middle School and then William Allen High School. I went to Penn State, didn’t really know what I wanted to do, but as a hobby with friends, we used to make movies in the back yard with a Super 8 camera – make little stories, we had fun with that. I got on the radio station at Penn State – just doing the news. I really enjoyed that whole thing. I thought maybe I’d go into TV and film, but they only had two courses at the time. They really had no facilities back in ’78. I started looking around – I looked at Boston, I looked at different areas. Then I looked at Temple – they really had the best program for me where you could right away get into the program – start making movies and video shows. Other colleges wanted another year of math and science, so I transferred to Temple – and I wanted a big city, too - rather than being in the middle of nowhere. 
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 ; SC: What was your major at Penn State?
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 ; MF: Liberal Arts – a little bit of everything. 0 499 Mark's Entry into the Business SC: Did you take over the business and your dad retired?
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 ; MF: No, I started out at the bottom. When I came in, it was tough, because I had a pretty good position with Merv Griffin and now I’m back to basically my “summer job” of weighing bundles of scrap in a dirty warehouse and unloading trucks of 100 lbs. rolls of fabric and into the basement. It was good – a good experience, it reminded me of what it takes. And, it was a much bigger business, too, then when I was a kid. It was spread out among more buildings. When I started out, we had our two original buildings but shortly after we bought two more buildings in town – just to handle the workload. 0 567 Origins of the Family Business SC: We’ve gone through all of that - the family history - could you talk a little bit about your family history? We got it from your mom and aunt, but it’s good to have independent confirmation and maybe you have some other memories.
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 ; MF: They probably have more than I do. My grandfather started it. He was a tailor first, and I don’t know how he grew it and made it bigger. I know one funny story – once he decided to become more of a manufacturer rather than a tailor, he would go into New York for whatever client (I don’t know who it was) and in those days, they would cut the work for you – you know how the work is made – spread out on a table and you cut it into “lots” maybe there is a 1,000 pieces in a lot – maybe shirts or pants and different parts that you are going to have to sew together. He would go to his client and they would say, “okay, take lot number 7” so he would grab lot number 7 and half of number 8 and stick it in his truck. Then they would call him and say, “Do you know you took half of number 8?” He’d say, “Oh, I’m sorry, come and get the other half.” It was a way to get more work for yourself. Everybody has little tricks you have to try to pull. I always liked that story. 0 726 More About the Business SC: Okay, maybe we should move on to business.
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 ; GE: You already gave us a little history, your mom and aunts gave us a little history. They went with Alfred Dunner – and this is what year?
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 ; MF: Alfred Dunner was always a client – a very small client – that my grandmother on my dad’s side actually met and that’s how that started - how we got hooked up as a client. I don’t know if you heard that story. I’m surprised my mom didn’t tell you that.
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 ; GE: No, no.
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 ; MF: My grandmother was at a party in New Jersey.
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 ; GE: And, that’s your paternal grandmother?
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 ; MF: Yes - my dad’s mother. All of the Aresty family that now owns Alfred Dunner lives in New Jersey. 0 1365 Overseas Competition GE: So after 9-11-2001 – they began using other factories.
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 ; MF: Right – overseas, not locally. They were testing China and Mexico and at the time, their quality wasn’t as good as ours, but pretty quickly, they became even better than us - real fast. And they would come to us and say, “Look what they’re doing there.” Because our machines are old and they are getting new machines and they have all these wheels that make nice little creases, so I had to buy new wheels – little things. It didn’t take much to fix, but we were always chasing that a little bit.
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 ; GE: People were making fabric, as they were going overseas, was that making it difficult for you to get fabric at a competitive rate? 
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 ; MF: Well, they bought the fabric for us. It really made it difficult for them. 0 1476 Local Producers GE: But, you didn’t make the tops?
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 ; MF: Other people made the tops. They would ask us who could make things. I know the Barson’s…I don’t know if you know the Barson Family. “Barsew” - my friend, Randy Barson - his brother was running the factory – his mother is still alive down in Florida.
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 ; GE: And this is also a local family?
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 ; MF: In Lehighton.
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 ; SC: How do you spell that?
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 ; MF: B-A-R-S-O-N and it was called Barsew. 0 1800 Union Information MF: Oh yes, they were easy, and that’s what the worker’s liked. Don’t forget they are piece rate union workers. The easier it can be to make them, the better. It got to the point where the workers would complain that, “Oh, I got larger sizes than you.” Because large sizes are more to sew – by a few more inches and more to handle and actually we did sometimes pay more, a little more, on the larger sizes. We would have to keep books on each size each person got – it got ridiculous, but we would do it because the Union would say, “you’re giving her more large sizes.” It never failed, when you looked it up – they actually had less large sizes than the person next to them. 0 1874 Relationship with Workers GE: Share with us a little bit the relationship – how large was your management group – who were the workers? What were the relationships like? Was there any tension?
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 ; MF: Like anything - really– there is always a few bad apples. Everyone else was great, and there are always trouble makers. There are some people who enjoy coming to work to make trouble and complain. I don’t understand it, I never will – so that’s what you had. Everyone was happy and content and some were exceptional. At the peak we had about 40-50 non-union workers. That would be staff, mechanics and floor people and the rest - about 380 union people. In the end we had about 200 union people and about 25-30 non-union people. 0 1936 Last Years of the Business GE: How were those last 7 or 8 years - morale-wise- when everything was on the decline?
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 ; MF: When it was on the decline, I knew right away I had to get government work – right away. There was a law at the time - it was called the Berry Amendment – which was a law for the military, they have to make it in the United States. I managed, through meeting people and getting the word out – we got a small order as a subcontractor to make the Army combat pants – the old style, the camouflage pants from an outfit out in Connecticut. We were doing really well with that, and he just stopped paying us, so we stopped shipping. We were making them, but we held on because he wasn’t paying. Finally he folded, or something happened. We had a lot of pants – like 200,000 pants that we never got paid for. 0 2693 How Has the Lehigh Valley Been Affected by the Decline of the Textile and Needle-Trade Industry GE: Just a couple of questions. How do you think this area here has been affected? This was a very thriving textile area and now there’s really none.
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 ; MF: I don’t think the area really notices it because other things take its place. My biggest concern with the whole country is that we don’t make things here anymore. That’s a big danger. We build casinos – so what is that? That’s money spiraling down the toilet. That’s not new money coming in from another country or other people. That’s our own money going into different pockets. We don’t make anything anymore. We are all about the service industry. 0 2857 Economic Colony SC: Do you think we are becoming an economic colony of other countries in some ways?
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 ; MF: We are, but I think there’s nothing wrong with that. The whole world is getting smaller – everything is going to the cheapest country. Even China now – because I spoke to the President of Alfred Dunner – maybe last year and said, “How are things going?” He said , “guess what – China and Central America are too expensive now – we are in Bangladesh and Cambodia now.” Where do you go next - to the moon? Eventually you run out of countries. The good news is that it may be more level – as long as countries are doing things to make it more level then it’s a function of are our oil prices so high that it makes no sense – then it’s like little things that you are deciding about. 0 3017 Jewish Community GE: And in terms of the local community, other things took its place and like you said, you think it’s unfortunate that we have less manufacturing here. How about in terms of the Jewish community? Forty/fifty years ago there was this thriving community that was often owners of these different factories and much of that has gone away. What do you think the impact has been on the Jewish community here?
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 ; MF: It must have impacted it in some ways. I don’t know what replaced that profession, but you had that group of families that not only had a good business or struggled with their business, but they gave back to the community a lot. Maybe you lose some of that. Being able to fundraise to build a new JCC or a new Temple might be a lot harder because you might not have the families – that there are some families that their wealth was so great that they passed down to the generations, and they are still giving to the community. 0 3311 Diversity of Workers GE: How about your work force? Mostly women?
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 ; MF: Mostly women.
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 ; GE: What ethnicity were they?
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 ; MF: Mostly Pennsylvania Dutch. Probably more than any other factory, we had Pennsylvania Dutch women from the Northampton area. When I moved over by the Airport, I made sure it was close enough so that they could all make it. Then all the new people were coming from other countries. We actually found people through the Catholic Charities Group. They would find people from all over the world, so we had people from all walks of life. 0 3515 Mark Fogelman's Values and Creative Inspirations SC: Actually three final questions. What did your family value most in life and what did you value? These are my film questions.
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 ; MF: To have family all around and have your health – that your family is all doing well.
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 ; GE: Would you say that’s both your family’s values as well as your own?
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 ; MF: I would hope so, yes. They may think differently.
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 ; SC: And how were they connected to the wider community? 0 3600 Candidate Obama Comes to Tama Manufacturing GE: Now this is 2008.
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 ; MF: 2008, so he was just running for President.
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 ; SC: Oh Wow, can you put this up? We can scan that.
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 ; MF: If you google Obama visits Tama Manufacturing, you’ll have a lot of pictures. I have a bunch I can send you because there was a whole bus of press there – Time Magazine, CNN. I was on Wolf Blitzer – the Wall – there was a picture of me, Obama and one of my workers.
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 ; GE: Tell us about it.
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 ; MF: What happened was – the Union lady called me on Sunday. She said, “Do you mind if we bring Obama in on Tuesday- which was April 1 - for a tour?” 0 MovingImage Mark Fogelman talks about how he returned to the family business after spending close to ten years working in the Television business in California, notably as a production manager with Merv Griffin Productions. Around 1990, Tama Manufacturing began exclusively sewing pants for the manufacturer, Alfred Dunner. Fortunately, purchases of the Alfred Dunner brand grew rapidly during this time period. At its peak, Tama Manufacturing employed close to 400 people and used twelve subcontractors to meet Alfred Dunner’s needs. Alfred Dunner continued their relationship with Tama Manufacturing until 2009. Interview with Mark Fogelman, October 12, 2013 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is October 12, 2013, and our interview is, let's just leave it at that for now. This is tape one. This might seem somewhat redundant because we have interviewed your mom and your aunt. It's good to get different viewpoints, then they sort of melt together and you have confirmation with certain issues. If you could tell me your full name and your birth date to start with. This is going to be more question and answer right at the beginning. MARK FOGELMAN: Mark Charles Fogelman and my birthday is January 18, 1960. SC: Where were you born and where have you lived? MF: I was born here in Allentown, Pennsylvania. SC: What address? MF: 2434 Livingston Street, that's where I lived most of the time. I went to college, first at Penn State and then transferred to Temple. I studied television -- worked in television locally for Service Electric Cable, Channel 69 -- I was a cameraman. Then I moved to Los Angeles in 1983 and quickly got a job with Merv Griffin Productions, and I was there for seven years -- until 1990. I was production manager for the game shows and in development of new game shows. SC: And how about after that? Did you work any other place before you went into the garment industry? MF: When I was in high school, I wanted to get my pilot's license, so I worked at Bamberger's - which became Macy's, then I worked at Hess's. Then for a while I worked at both -- selling shoes at Bamberger's and men's sportswear (on the first floor) at Hess's. SC: As far as Hess's was concerned, what did you think about Hess's? This is self-interest -- I teach consumerism. MF: I thought it was great! What happened was, I was working at Bamberger's and my best friend at the time was Steve Greenberg, and his father was President of Hess's. He heard I was working at Bamberger's - selling shoes, which was actually his first job -- selling shoes. He said, "You can't work at Bamberger's -- you have to work at Hess's." I went in and, of course, I got hired. For a little while, I worked at both because it just worked out that I could work in the morning at Bamberger's and at Hess's in the afternoon. After a month, I just went to Hess's. When they opened up Plymouth Meeting Mall -- they opened up a store there -- and I was going to Temple, so it was easy for me to go work at that store. I enjoyed working there. SC: Did you take it to the end? Working there? MF: No, why I stopped was -- I was commuting for a while in the summer -- I was living in Allentown, commuting to Plymouth Meeting and one night coming back from the turnpike, I fell asleep driving. I went up a hill and rolled down the hill, landed upside down and totaled my car -- luckily I wasn't hurt. I just couldn't do the drive anymore. In fact, the store manager came to my house because I was the number one guy opening up new credit cards. You got a dollar for every new credit card you opened up -- nobody had one down there -- it was like a gold mine. He came to my house with $200.00 worth of "Lucky Bucks" (you could spend in the store) and he asked me if I would come back to work and I said I can't . It was just too much. That's when I stopped working at Hess's. SC: Can you talk about your education - going back to the beginning? MF: First I went to Nursery School at the JCC. I went to the Jewish Day School from Kindergarten to sixth grade, then went on to Trexler Middle School and then William Allen High School. I went to Penn State, didn't really know what I wanted to do, but as a hobby with friends, we used to make movies in the back yard with a Super 8 camera -- make little stories, we had fun with that. I got on the radio station at Penn State -- just doing the news. I really enjoyed that whole thing. I thought maybe I'd go into TV and film, but they only had two courses at the time. They really had no facilities back in '78. I started looking around -- I looked at Boston, I looked at different areas. Then I looked at Temple -- they really had the best program for me where you could right away get into the program -- start making movies and video shows. Other colleges wanted another year of math and science, so I transferred to Temple -- and I wanted a big city, too - rather than being in the middle of nowhere. SC: What was your major at Penn State? MF: Liberal Arts -- a little bit of everything. SC: That's wonderful -- we always think. After you went out to the west coast and then came back here. Can you talk a little bit about how you became involved in the textile business -- in one of the last textile businesses? MF: Growing up, there would be occasional summers when I'd help out at the factory in the summer -- doing odd jobs, usually the dirtiest jobs, and I hated it. Even when I lived in California, I would have nightmares that I was working in the factory. I would wake up -- Oh My God! It was like taking the drive to the factory, I'd wake up - Thank God I'm in California. I told you the story. I got married and had a baby and my wife at the time needed to do a residency so it worked out perfectly that she could get into Lehigh Valley Hospital. She could have got into USC, but it was all like gunshot wounds and carrying blood and it wasn't really educational she thought -- then she went to Lehigh Valley. I thought I'll work in television in New York -- an hour and a half, two hour drive. I had a job all lined up, and I went in for the interview and I just couldn't do it -- because the drive was terrible - got stuck in the tunnel, got hit by a cab. For a couple months, I didn't do anything . . . thought what should I do? Then I thought I really should get into our family business -- it was growing every year at this time. It had been growing 10-20% every year -- just getting bigger and bigger, so I thought I'd just do that. GAIL EISENBERG: What time was this? MF: 1990. It was really growing -- I don't know if my mom told you the story -- my dad was actually going to retire -- did she tell you that whole thing? SC: Go ahead, tell us again. It's good to have it from both viewpoints. MF: '82-'83 -- the factory was not really doing that well at all. It couldn't really support two families, so my dad thought he would retire and become a travel agent, because he actually enjoyed that. He actually retired, had a going-away party. He had an office already picked out in Northampton -- nearby. He was going to work in someone's office, but he never signed any final papers that he was not part of the business. A couple weeks later, my uncle died of a heart attack at age 43. So, my dad had to come back into the business. Shortly thereafter, Alfred Dunner asked if - I think Alfred Dunner and Liz Clairborne were two big clients- both clients wanted them to be exclusive. But it still wasn't a ton of work. So they thought well, Alfred Dunner is easier to make -- there was not too much science behind it. You couldn't tell if you were making money or losing money on which garment -- they weren't too engineered at that point. They went with Alfred Dunner and that was a good move because Liz Clairborne, two years later, took everything overseas and Alfred Dunner stuck by us until 2009. And it kept growing by 10-20% every year. With the economy and what people were buying, for whatever, it kept growing and growing. SC: Did you take over the business and your dad retired? MF: No, I started out at the bottom. When I came in, it was tough, because I had a pretty good position with Merv Griffin and now I'm back to basically my "summer job" of weighing bundles of scrap in a dirty warehouse and unloading trucks of 100 lbs. rolls of fabric and into the basement. It was good -- a good experience, it reminded me of what it takes. And, it was a much bigger business, too, then when I was a kid. It was spread out among more buildings. When I started out, we had our two original buildings but shortly after we bought two more buildings in town -- just to handle the workload. We had trucks going between five different buildings, plus we had subcontractors. At the peak, we had twelve subcontractors. We were up to 385 of our own people, but it really took 1200 people to do the work that we had. So twelve different factories all over the area, some in western Pennsylvania, some in NYC -- all over the place. SC: We've gone through all of that - the family history - could you talk a little bit about your family history? We got it from your mom and aunt, but it's good to have independent confirmation and maybe you have some other memories. MF: They probably have more than I do. My grandfather started it. He was a tailor first, and I don't know how he grew it and made it bigger. I know one funny story -- once he decided to become more of a manufacturer rather than a tailor, he would go into New York for whatever client (I don't know who it was) and in those days, they would cut the work for you -- you know how the work is made -- spread out on a table and you cut it into "lots" maybe there is a 1,000 pieces in a lot -- maybe shirts or pants and different parts that you are going to have to sew together. He would go to his client and they would say, "okay, take lot number 7" so he would grab lot number 7 and half of number 8 and stick it in his truck. Then they would call him and say, "Do you know you took half of number 8?" He'd say, "Oh, I'm sorry, come and get the other half." It was a way to get more work for yourself. Everybody has little tricks you have to try to pull. I always liked that story. SC: I hadn't heard that one. MF: Yes, that was a good one! Everybody has little things that you do to get more work. So he started it, then my dad married my mom, and I think he was doing roofing or selling siding like Tin Men -- you know the movie Tin Men? That was what he was doing, he hated it, so he started working at the factory. Years later my uncle married my aunt, and then he got involved in the business and the two of them were partners, and my grandfather was involved. Probably in the '60's my grandfather was becoming less and less involved. Even as a kid, I don't remember him being there all the time. Once the two sons knew what they were doing, he kind of backed off. He even came in probably once a week or every other week -- not when I was working there because he had passed away right before. In the summers when I was a kid -- he would come in just to press his pants and probably to look around. He'd come in and say hello to everybody. SC: Any other anecdotes that you remember before we get into the nuts and bolts of the business history? MF: Not that I can think of. SC: Okay, maybe we should move on to business. GE: You already gave us a little history, your mom and aunts gave us a little history. They went with Alfred Dunner -- and this is what year? MF: Alfred Dunner was always a client -- a very small client -- that my grandmother on my dad's side actually met and that's how that started - how we got hooked up as a client. I don't know if you heard that story. I'm surprised my mom didn't tell you that. GE: No, no. MF: My grandmother was at a party in New Jersey. GE: And, that's your paternal grandmother? MF: Yes - my dad's mother. All of the Aresty family that now owns Alfred Dunner lives in New Jersey. SC: Would you spell the name? MF: A-R-E-S-T-Y. The story there was that there was a real person named Afred Dunner -- a designer and he had a partner. I don't remember the name, but I want to say it was like Wexler -- something like that. Alfred Dunner was the designer and Wexler was more like the salesperson connected to (I think) it was Macy's. You need to have a buyer before you make anything. You have to have an "in" at the store -- even today. The two of them were partners and within a year or two, Alfred Dunner was in a car accident and killed. So, the Wexler brought in Joe Aresty, who was a buyer from Macy's -- pretty high up, but he was a buyer. The two of them thought they'll try to make this go and a year or two later, this Wexler was in a car accident and died. So now it's Aresty, and he brought in his brothers. Joe was always in charge of sales. The one brother was in charge of distribution to make sure things got delivered and the other brother in charge of production. Joe was the oldest brother, he is the only one still alive today. One actually got killed in a car accident -- but lived to be eighty something and the other brother, who we dealt with the most in production -- he was in production, he had cancer, but I think he was like eighty when it got him. The story that I heard is that when they were struggling and couldn't pay all their bills -- and couldn't pay us -- we carried them. We said, "Don't worry about it." The three brothers, they always remembered that we helped them get started. They were very loyal and even when the smarter move would have been to go overseas twenty years earlier, they said, "No, we're sticking with you guys." In fact, in 1996, we were in five different buildings in Northampton, and they had recently been in three buildings and consolidated into one giant warehouse. They found that they saved a lot of money -- efficiencies and all that stuff. They insisted that we do the same thing -- even though it didn't make sense on our end. But, that's what they wanted and that's what we had to do. We went into one big building and I said, "Instead of doing that, why don't we open up a factory in the Dominican Republic or Mexico?" He said, "No you like living in Allentown, we like living in New Jersey -- open it up in Allentown." So pretty much they stuck with us until he died (I can't believe I can't remember his name), then the next generation, that was my age --they had no attachment. They pretty much waited until he died, then they pulled the rug. GE: And that happened in 2009? MF: Yes. GE: So you started with them -- what year was it? MF: Probably in the '60s as a small company. Then in '83 we were really dedicated to just them. GE: Right, they became your exclusive. MF: Which was a risky move, but it worked out. GE: From 1983 to 2009 and this was a growing business. MF: Growing until 9-11. At 9-11 - BOOM - it started going down. GE: Oh, interesting. SC: Do you remember the addresses of the building in Northampton and in Allentown? MF: The main one in Northampton was 1798 Main Street and there were some other buildings before -- smaller, but we eventually ended up at 1798 Main Street. Then we also had a few buildings on Center Street -- a former IGA supermarket, which people in Northampton know, and that was 2006 Center Street. GE: Does your family still own any of these buildings? MF: Yes. Do you know Northampton at all? GE: I know the Roxy. MF: Right behind the Roxy those are all ours. And, our factory is still there -- it's vacant -- we sold it to a guy- he was going to make apartments -- he hasn't done anything with it yet. Tanczos Beer is there and right next door is R& ; S Printers (it was known as at the time) - but now it's Julia Harhart, the Representative, is there and Dr. Ofrichter -- you might know -- he's a tenant in there, and Tenzio's Warehouse [?] -- they do air brakes and fix your trucks. Then 2048 Center -- was like a little house -- that was our pattern making place -- over the years it was a steak and sandwich shop and many other things over the years. Those three buildings, I turned into commercial real estate. They're all fully rented. SC: That would be interesting for the history to take pictures of it. MF: Before and after - I might have that somewhere. I have to look. I might even have the "before" -- what it looked like -- as the supermarket and how we used it - then how we fixed it up. I really made the walls taller -- with a clock tower -- like a little strip center. GE: If you have any of that - that would be great! MF: I'll make a list of things. GE: I think you were most recently sharing with us the story of Alfred Dunner. You were their sole manufacturer. Is that correct? MF: Yes, from '83. It started way back - my father's grandmother was at a party in Dover, New Jersey and happened to talk to Joe Aresty or this Wexler at the time. You talk and say, "What do you do?" "Oh, I'm in the garment business." And she said, "Well, my son has a factory." So they tried him out and that's what started the whole thing. GE: Your understanding is that whenever they ran into difficulties in the 60's and 70's -- your family stayed as their supplier. MF: Yes. In the early times, if they couldn't pay on time. We just kept doing their work and extending the credit -- and they always remembered that. GE: So in 1983 they started the relationship with your family as being the sole supplier, and it continued until 2009 even at times when you said it didn't always make a lot of sense - and I think we have that. So tell us, with Alfred Dunner at that time, you entered the business around 1990. So tell us what the growth was like -- what was happening in terms of the kind of product they were selling, and what the growth was like of their product, and you as a producer of their product. MF: At the time we were in one building -- actually we had two buildings -- one right behind the other and the one building would make about 6,000 pants per week, and the other building, in the back, was making about 2,000 pants per week. So we were at 8,000 pants per week between the two buildings. Maybe we could squeeze out 10,000 per week, but we kept growing and growing. At the point where we needed subcontractors to do more and more. Then the number really became about 30,000-35,000 per week -- before you knew it - it got up to about 140,000 pants per week -- is how many we had to make. GE: Was that at the peak? MF: Yes at the peak, then at Christmas time it was even worse! That's another story. That's the normal peak - then it would pick up between Thanksgiving and Christmas. We would be really swamped. We'd bring on people only for a short time. The peak was probably around the year 2000. When 9-11 hit, if you remember, the first thing they said was that the next place terrorists were going to hit was the malls. Remember they were putting barricades in front of all the doors at the malls. People stopped shopping -- dramatically. It made people (everybody in that world) rethink how they do their business. They were already really motivated then to do things overseas. Plus fabric mills, which we depended on, with regulations and wages and OSHA -- they were looking to do more and more overseas as well and constantly calling on our customers and saying, "We're building a new plant in Mexico. Why don't you have your pants made there? We'll make the same fabric there." They would test these things, they would do little tests. So we're seeing our numbers drop each year -- it was going down and down. GE: So after 9-11-2001 -- they began using other factories. MF: Right -- overseas, not locally. They were testing China and Mexico and at the time, their quality wasn't as good as ours, but pretty quickly, they became even better than us - real fast. And they would come to us and say, "Look what they're doing there." Because our machines are old and they are getting new machines and they have all these wheels that make nice little creases, so I had to buy new wheels -- little things. It didn't take much to fix, but we were always chasing that a little bit. GE: People were making fabric, as they were going overseas, was that making it difficult for you to get fabric at a competitive rate? MF: Well, they bought the fabric for us. It really made it difficult for them. They were being constantly told, "Hey, we could do this much cheaper for you in Mexico, Central America or China. We have plants there now." But, they were being loyal to us. They could have been able to save 30% or more. But at the time, as long as they were making money, I think they were happy. GE: Now, did you only make pants? MF: Yes. Occasionally we made -- like a one-piece - that was kind of like a long skirt. GE: Like a jumper? MF: Kind of like a long button down skirt. But mostly pants. GE: But, you didn't make the tops? MF: Other people made the tops. They would ask us who could make things. I know the Barson's--I don't know if you know the Barson Family. "Barsew" - my friend, Randy Barson - his brother was running the factory -- his mother is still alive down in Florida. GE: And this is also a local family? MF: In Lehighton. SC: How do you spell that? MF: B-A-R-S-O-N and it was called Barsew. They made some tops. Another one was Scotty's. Scotty's Fashion -- did you ever hear of them? GE: No. MF: They are not Jewish, but we introduced them because they could make the tops, and they were making coats -- like the sports coats for Russ Togs, which was another big name. They were hurting for business and our Vice President at the time started out as a secretary at Scotty's. She knew them so we connected them. They would work directly for Alfred Dunner (without going through us) to make the tops directly, but they were a sub-contractor to us for the pants. Even though we did them this huge favor, and they were making huge amounts of money, there was a time when they tried to go around us on the pants. They actually went to Alfred Dunner and said, "Here's what Tama's paying us for the pants -- what are you paying them?" and it was a big "tadoo." It was an interesting story -- I don't know if it fits in. SC: It does, absolutely. MF: It was 1994 or 95 when it was snowing every Wednesday. GE: I think I remember that! MF: The snow was higher than my car in the driveway. Because of that, factories closed. We had to close ours up on those days. A lot of the ladies had kids in school so they're not coming in, and why make them risk their lives for this. So we were closed and other factories were closed. What we had to do was add more factories. It actually pushed us into New Jersey towards New York - finding factories that first of all didn't have the snow. And they were open and people lived like right above the factory. So we had all these little factories that we would call and say, "Could you do two thousand per week, could you do three thousand per week? What could you do?" And they would do it. At the same time, Scotty's thought they had us because of the weather. They said, "We want 16% more money on what you are paying us or we are going to Alfred Dunner directly and tell them this is what you are paying us." And we didn't listen to their bluff. My dad was involved at the time, and I got on the phone with Neil Scott and said, "Are you sure you are going to close your factory that has 350 people if you can't work for this price?" "You're going to really close your factory?" Because we couldn't pay them more. We quickly called these factories and asked them, "What's the most you could do?" One said, "Oh, I could do eight thousand per week, I could do ten thousand per week." Scotty's were only doing 35 thousand per week -- the other factories were new and they knew how to make them. I said, "I said are you sure -- because your factory will be out of business in two weeks if you stick to this. He said, "No, I'll bet on Scotty's" -- because he was a gambler -- "I'll bet on Scotty's." We said okay. We took all our work out and gave it to all these people, and they were closed. They went to Alfred Dunner and tried to say will you pay us? Alfred Dunner said, "No, we work for Tama." Imagine 35 thousand pairs of pants -- the dollars that is -- and he could have probably made - at least another six or seven years until we had to cut back. That was an interesting little story, it even gets my blood boiling today when I think about it. SC: That's a great story, this is what we are looking for. MF: He just gambled the whole thing away and it was pure greed. At this point we were heavily engineered, we knew what everything costs --we knew how much they were making. There was no reason for it. They just wanted to go directly to Alfred Dunner and not have to get work from us. Alfred Dunner stood behind us -- they still gave them the jackets, but they didn't take away any pants to give to them. SC: Where was their factory again? MF: In the Kresge building. They had a bunch of factories, and they might even be open in some small way -- but I don't know what they are doing. GE: So your family always stayed just in pants. MF: Yes. Way back, I think we made everything. At one point, we made kids' clothing. GE: Maybe way back. If I recall from the last interview - I think after WWII you were pretty much pants. Maybe you could also address this. I seem to recall something about that the one thing your father liked about working with Alfred Dunner was that it was an easy pants to make. MF: Oh yes, they were easy, and that's what the worker's liked. Don't forget they are piece rate union workers. The easier it can be to make them, the better. It got to the point where the workers would complain that, "Oh, I got larger sizes than you." Because large sizes are more to sew -- by a few more inches and more to handle and actually we did sometimes pay more, a little more, on the larger sizes. We would have to keep books on each size each person got -- it got ridiculous, but we would do it because the Union would say, "you're giving her more large sizes." It never failed, when you looked it up -- they actually had less large sizes than the person next to them. They were always jealous of the one next to them. They were looking at the bundle next to them and they would say, "oh, I got size 8-- oh, I got size 32." It always worked out -- the one complaining always had less -- she should have kept quiet because then we had to give her larger sizes. SC: What union was it? MF: ILGWU, and then it became United. GE: Share with us a little bit the relationship -- how large was your management group -- who were the workers? What were the relationships like? Was there any tension? MF: Like anything - really-- there is always a few bad apples. Everyone else was great, and there are always trouble makers. There are some people who enjoy coming to work to make trouble and complain. I don't understand it, I never will -- so that's what you had. Everyone was happy and content and some were exceptional. At the peak we had about 40-50 non-union workers. That would be staff, mechanics and floor people and the rest - about 380 union people. In the end we had about 200 union people and about 25-30 non-union people. GE: How were those last 7 or 8 years - morale-wise- when everything was on the decline? MF: When it was on the decline, I knew right away I had to get government work -- right away. There was a law at the time - it was called the Berry Amendment -- which was a law for the military, they have to make it in the United States. I managed, through meeting people and getting the word out -- we got a small order as a subcontractor to make the Army combat pants -- the old style, the camouflage pants from an outfit out in Connecticut. We were doing really well with that, and he just stopped paying us, so we stopped shipping. We were making them, but we held on because he wasn't paying. Finally he folded, or something happened. We had a lot of pants -- like 200,000 pants that we never got paid for. Then, with a consultant at the time, we were putting in bids for work -- all the time. Finally we got one that hit -- we won the bid -- it was to make jogging pants for the Air Force -- like for the gym. It was a small contract, but nice. It was so easy to make that we made money the first month, which we didn't expect. It was profitable right away. In the interim, now that I had this contract, and we got to know people inside the defense department. I said, "I have all these pants that the guy didn't pay me for -- is there any way you can take them?" And they finagled because they had to make a contract for the pants. They paid me the full price -- as if I bought the fabric. You know I was a subcontractor making them for ten-dollars a pair and now they are paying me twenty eight dollars. So I got most of my money back, I didn't get it all back, but I got 80-90% of it back by holding on to those pants and selling it directly to the government. So we had this contract for the Air Force jogging pants for about a year, year and a half. They cancelled the contract because the soldiers didn't like the fabric. When they walked it went "whoosh, whoosh, whoosh." They didn't like that sound. We worked with the Air Force, I had to fly out to Wright-Patterson out in Ohio, which was really fascinating -- I had to work with different, softer, types of fabrics. We never heard anything back though -- what they ever did with it. I don't know -- it just kind of went away. I'm sure they had some kind of jogging pants somewhere--but we never heard about that. Then we went after this huge order for the Air Force combat uniform -- which was both the jacket and the pants. GE: So this was quite a step for you because you had been doing pants. MF: We kind of figured right off the bat that we'd give out all the jackets, and we'd do all the pants. It was me going by the seat of my pants basically -- I didn't know if they would agree to it. Then, for the pants, we would need an extra 150 people to do this contract, but it was a five-year, 75 million dollar contract. We put in the bid and we would call on Senators -- what do you call it? GE: Lobbying? MF: The Union was actually helping me. They told me that it should count in our favor that we're a union shop. We pay healthcare benefits to these people, we have good working conditions. Why are you ordering things to people on the border of Mexico, who pay Mexicans to do the work? (which was what my sub-contractor was--.) Anyway, to make a long story short - we won this award. The first year was 22 million dollars. That sounds like you win the lottery, and they write you a check for 22 million dollars, but it doesn't work that way. You actually have to go out (with your own money) and buy the fabric, then train all these people -- buy the machines that we don't own or lease them or whatever. There was a learning curve and it was hard -- you are going from the easiest pair of pants to the hardest. GE: This was what year? MF: I want to say 2006 -- maybe -- I'm not sure. I'm all excited, and I immediately have to expand my factory. I have space in my building -- we had moved to a 190 square foot building at this point -- half of it we weren't really using. I had to put more hook-ups for more people and more machines. Three months later my contract with the Union is up and they think I won the lottery -- they think, "Oh, 22 million -- you're doing great -- we want 18% more healthcare, and we are going to give the people less of a plan." They couldn't put their families on the plan and had more of a co-pay. They had told the people that I was offering no wage increase and that I didn't want to pay any healthcare, and I was offering them 2% - which is pretty customary over three years -- 2, 2 and 2, and I said I'll pay the same healthcare as I pay now -- that's what I figured on. The ballot put out to the people was that Tama is offering no wage increase for three years and is not willing to pay any healthcare. Of course, they all went on strike, but the people on the negotiating team crossed the picket line and worked because they knew she was lying -- they were my key people. It was a nightmare --I had to have security - it went on for fifteen weeks. I had the best lawyer - ever. GE: It went on for fifteen weeks? MF: Fifteen weeks -- and I was eliminating the Union. I brought in bus loads of workers from Philadelphia -- from Chinatown-- to fill the seats and do the work, but we were falling behind because it was so disruptive and difficult. That allowed me to sub-contract right away for the jackets -- the government said, "Oh, you are having a strike -- you can do it." It went on for fifteen weeks and the lawyer said, "Now you can advertise for replacement workers, which is basically saying -- you don't need the Union anymore." And it's legal -- you have enough people, and now you are just looking for people to replace the people you had. Then the President of the Union called and said, "Let's have a meeting." They ended up settling. I said, "Now you cost me a lot of money, I was closed for 15 weeks. I hired security, I fell behind on all of my work. They had people picketing J.C. Penny saying , "Don't buy Alfred Dunner." That was probably the nail that sealed it for Alfred Dunner. They had a good reason to say, "What do we need this aggravation for? When we can just buy it for 30% less from China, and no one is going to complain." That probably didn't help either. They settled the contract -- they agreed to 0,1,& ; 0. Now I had to do what they had said and I said, "You cost me so much money. I can't have all this complaining about the large sizes, all this pettiness has to go away. Whether they are on military or Alfred Dunner , they can't complain. But, they still gave me a hard time when they came back. Pretty soon after I decided to sell the contract to the people in Mexico (Texas). I said, "This is not going to work, the people are just not trying, they don't care. " We even tried to pay them more money to do the work and it just wasn't happening. So I sold that contract, so that never really happened. Now I'm back to just having Alfred Dunner again, and I lost my motivation to try -- I'm doing everything to save their jobs, and they go on strike. At the end of the day, they follow the Union, which is stupid. I kind of thought, what's the point of it? When Alfred Dunner did call and said, "we're done" I didn't shed a tear - I felt this weight just lift off my shoulder. I was happy about it actually. SC: And that was in 2009? MF: Now what happened there was they were always caught short at Christmas time. Remember I told you at Christmas the numbers would jump way up. Near the end our average number per week was about 35,000 per week -- it was a normal week. At Christmas, it went up to 90,000-1000,00 per week - from Thanksgiving to the end of the year. That's what sales would be across J.C. Penney as a guide. They were always caught a little bit short -- Dunner was short and then J.C. Penney would look at what sold last year to figure on their orders for this year. So they thought, we are always short -- let's up it 10% and they were already short and now they are going to be short again. They are ordering less because of it. They thought this year, we'll be smart and we are going to over-order and have tons of stock ready so that we fill every single order so that next year when they order 10% more it's the real number. So they ordered a ton of work from us -- it was really busy, and we stored it in our facility because they didn't have room to store all this work. and they paid us for all of it at the time. In 2008 -- that's when the market crashed -- remember the GM was going to fold. The bulk of their customers were mid-western. GE: Of Alfred Dunner? MF: Their biggest buyers are mid-western. GE: The department stores are in the midwest? MF: Even they are everywhere here--.they just sell better in the midwest. And, we see the numbers of what's selling, normally at Christmas time -- it goes from 35 to 90 and we were seeing numbers like 12 thousand, 9 thousand, 16 thousand and here we were making 130 thousand a week -- figuring on that kind of number. I wrote a letter to all my people saying we are going to be laid off for the next 4 months until we eat up all this extra inventory. Two weeks later the president of that company called me up and said, "Mark, we're going to have to take all our work over to China now because sales are so low, we can manage it from overseas." It was kind of an excuse for them, but it worked, and I understood it. I just had to write another letter back and say, "We're closing." GE: So with all of that inventory that you had, were you able to sell that off? MF: Oh yes, It was already paid for by Alfred Dunner. The styles don't change -- they make the same -- black, navy, grey, white -- depending on the time of year. It was standard colors -- eventually it was going to get sold. We would just ship it to them when they had holes in their warehouse and had room. GE: This happened over 3-6 months? MF: From February to April, May -- we got rid of all that extra. GE: And, how many people were working for you at the time when you had to close? MF: About 200 -- and that was 2009. SC: So you have some good anecdotes, too? MF: I do. GE: Just a couple of questions. How do you think this area here has been affected? This was a very thriving textile area and now there's really none. MF: I don't think the area really notices it because other things take its place. My biggest concern with the whole country is that we don't make things here anymore. That's a big danger. We build casinos -- so what is that? That's money spiraling down the toilet. That's not new money coming in from another country or other people. That's our own money going into different pockets. We don't make anything anymore. We are all about the service industry. Even my new business now is basically a service business. That's not the way to grow an economy. You can't just be serving each other hamburgers -- what kind of money are you going to make? You have to sell things to other countries to bring money in and even to make an environment that even if we are not making things right now make it so friendly that Germany wants to build a factory here or Japan. And, they do some of that with the cars, and we need more of that. I notice that even with my business, there are so many things that distract you from your business -- from focusing on your business and it's usually government related things. You are dealing with OSHA -- and OSHA is a good thing to have in place, because all these things start with good intentions but people abuse them. The day I opened up my brand new factory -- it had high ceilings and beautiful, comfortable chairs and all new stuff. The brand new air conditioning unit didn't work -- they were still putting freon in it -- it happened to be one of these ninety degree days -- and it was warm in the factory. People called OSHA because it was too warm -- on the opening day. OSHA came and said they have no rules regarding temperature. Just the fact that people would do that on the opening day of a brand new nice place - I put in systems that would be delivered right to the presses, and then people are complaining. SC: Do you think we are becoming an economic colony of other countries in some ways? MF: We are, but I think there's nothing wrong with that. The whole world is getting smaller -- everything is going to the cheapest country. Even China now -- because I spoke to the President of Alfred Dunner -- maybe last year and said, "How are things going?" He said , "guess what -- China and Central America are too expensive now -- we are in Bangladesh and Cambodia now." Where do you go next - to the moon? Eventually you run out of countries. The good news is that it may be more level -- as long as countries are doing things to make it more level then it's a function of are our oil prices so high that it makes no sense -- then it's like little things that you are deciding about. I just heard that they are building cell phones in the United States -- in Texas. One of the SmartPhones companies is building in Texas. Then you hear, "I'm sure it will have glitches." People have feelings like "we can't even do that right." Which I'm sure we can. We used to do everything -- we used to make TVs here and other things. It's not anyone's fault but the governments that make it so easy to go overseas and so difficult to make things here. When I was in Brazil -- when I worked for Merv -- I ordered a bottle of champagne. I wasn't using money, and I got the bill and it was 3 million of their money and I thought , "Whatever the exchange rate, it can't be good." It turned out to be 300 dollars. I said, "Why is this so expensive?" It was maybe a 20 dollar bottle. They said, "Because we have a 100% import tax." And you should have that -- pay for the job that was lost in your own country and make it more attractive to buy our products here. There are so many simple things we could do, except for the fact that we owe everything to China at this point, we probably can't do anything without their permission. SC: And, we did have high import taxes for a long, long time in the United States. MF: That's just my philosophy. GE: And in terms of the local community, other things took its place and like you said, you think it's unfortunate that we have less manufacturing here. How about in terms of the Jewish community? Forty/fifty years ago there was this thriving community that was often owners of these different factories and much of that has gone away. What do you think the impact has been on the Jewish community here? MF: It must have impacted it in some ways. I don't know what replaced that profession, but you had that group of families that not only had a good business or struggled with their business, but they gave back to the community a lot. Maybe you lose some of that. Being able to fundraise to build a new JCC or a new Temple might be a lot harder because you might not have the families -- that there are some families that their wealth was so great that they passed down to the generations, and they are still giving to the community. But, I don't know of too many people who have a career that can last thirty years. A lot of people that I know, whatever business they are into, before you know it - it either became outdated or something else replaced it. Other people have to re-invent themselves and some people can't. GE: You were saying with the Jewish community there was more of the ability years ago in terms of giving back. What were some of the ways that people gave back and how about your own family? MF: My dad was active with the Jewish Day School and was involved. I remember going to a (during those Israeli wars that would pop up) and they would have a [Jewish] Federation thing that would pop up -- and you'd say, "I pledge 1,000 dollars." They don't have those kinds of things any more or maybe it's more private. GE: The Jewish community especially in this area - they were somehow over-represented in this industry. Why do you think that may be the case? MF: I think it was the proximity to New York City. I think there were some rules with trucking that if you were so far from NY, there were some advantages. There was something like, 50 miles out of NY that you get away with it, you don't if you are closer. GE: The textile industry in general had a lot of Jews and a lot of Italians. Any thoughts as to why those ethnic groups were heavily involved in the industry. MF: We are both so very similar in a lot of ways. It comes from the training that they had -- their parents and grandparents -- that was the profession that you were allowed to do or just did because you enjoyed it. GE: And what professions? MF: Being a tailor -- especially Italians. Italians are still known for being the best tailors. SC: And silk mills. MF: In fact, some of our subcontractors were Italian from the Scranton area. Scotty's is actually an Italian family. They either really were Italian, or Jewish, and then, eventually, Asian. Which is current now and they were great. The thing about Asian people is if they say they're going to have it done by . . . and you say how much can you do? And if they say 20,000, and you think, wait, you only had 8,000 last week, and now you will have 20,000? They say, don't worry, I'll have it, and they do. Because what they do is they spread it out amongst all . . . things you probably don't even know what goes on. They just give it out to their friends' factories, and you don't even want to know where it's going, but it comes back. And they just get it done. GE: Right, right, and they were your subcontractors at the time? How about your work force? Mostly women? MF: Mostly women. GE: What ethnicity were they? MF: Mostly Pennsylvania Dutch. Probably more than any other factory, we had Pennsylvania Dutch women from the Northampton area. When I moved over by the Airport, I made sure it was close enough so that they could all make it. Then all the new people were coming from other countries. We actually found people through the Catholic Charities Group. They would find people from all over the world, so we had people from all walks of life. GE: Did it tend to be first generation workers? MF: The new people? GE: Yes. MF: The new people were -- people in their twenties, and we had to train some of them how to sew. They were willing to learn, and they actually were pretty good. They were really into it. SC: A better work ethic? MF: No, the older workers had the best work ethic. Occasionally you find someone good. But, it was hard to find people -- there were people that came in and maybe by break time they would just leave because they didn't like it -- or maybe they didn't need the money. We didn't pay a whole lot more than unemployment -- maybe we were too close to what unemployment was. GE: It was not the work ethic? MF: We had women 70 years old who still kept coming to work. I don't think it's because they needed the money. Maybe they wanted to get away from their husbands, or got along with the other women there, or were just saving up for a cruise or something. They just really enjoyed working. One benefit because of the way I closed, because they took the work overseas, the workers got two years of college retraining into another field. There are a lot of people who I run into who say that they wished that I would still be open. They say, "We didn't realize how good we had it." Some people went to Amazon.com - where they really need a Union. GE: Where is that? MF: In Fogelsville. I have two workers that I've run into that have lost 40 pounds working at Amazon.com. They were overweight when they worked for me and now they are slim and svelte because they are running -- they don't give them a break -- they go home crying. SC: There were protests. It was awful. MF: It's still bad. They don't let them make more than fifteen dollars per hour. Once you hit that, you'll never get a raise. GE: Now we have two final questions. SC: Actually three final questions. What did your family value most in life and what did you value? These are my film questions. MF: To have family all around and have your health -- that your family is all doing well. GE: Would you say that's both your family's values as well as your own? MF: I would hope so, yes. They may think differently. SC: And how were they connected to the wider community? I think we did talk about that. What gives you a sense of creativity and/or artistry. I used to always say artistry in life, not meaning actual art, but the sense of fulfillment and creativity in life. MF: I think I am a creative person, although I don't use that a lot. I like to make jokes and laugh. If I can make a joke or do something to make people laugh -- I get a kick out of that. I didn't show you my Obama stuff. Let me go get it. This is just a sample of it. GE: Now this is 2008. MF: 2008, so he was just running for President. SC: Oh Wow, can you put this up? We can scan that. MF: If you google Obama visits Tama Manufacturing, you'll have a lot of pictures. I have a bunch I can send you because there was a whole bus of press there -- Time Magazine, CNN. I was on Wolf Blitzer -- the Wall -- there was a picture of me, Obama and one of my workers. GE: Tell us about it. MF: What happened was -- the Union lady called me on Sunday. She said, "Do you mind if we bring Obama in on Tuesday- which was April 1 - for a tour?" I didn't mind at all because by then he was like a rock star -- I just wanted to meet him. They said, "Just don't tell anyone because of security." He's going to walk through and shake people's hands -- spend about a half hour. Then on Monday, the Secret Service and his advance people came through to see where the bus would park, the path he would take. I asked my mom if she wanted to go, and my kids took off-- Sean and Danny. Sean was allowed to vote that year, and he plays basketball, and they were talking about basketball. The first bus shows up with the press. Then a half hour later Obama's bus was supposed to come. The press bus driver says, "Do you want to pull the bus around to the other side?" He said, "No, I'll wait here, I don't want to be inspected again." If either bus goes out of sight, they would have to get the dogs again. So then, Obama comes in the back door of the cutting room and keeps chatting with everyone. He asked me, "Why are you still in business, when no one else is?" I told him as long as fabric mills are open -- but you have to put in some of these import taxes. This is what we are fighting against. Sure enough, a year and a half later, I was closed. He was nice to everyone. GE: He came to Muhlenberg. SC: I wonder if it was when he came to Muhlenberg. GE: No, I think it was in September. MF: He went right from me to Springhouse. He spoke there and said, "I just came from Tama Manufacturing. It has a nice owner, nice people." Then he came back two years later and went to the unemployment office and met some of my people. They told him he visited them at Tama Manufacturing and spoke to them, and now they don't have jobs. SC: That gives me shivers. MF: He said, "some jobs you just can't save." Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Mark Fogelman, October 12, 2013
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Mark Fogelman talks about how he returned to the family business after spending close to ten years working in the Television business in California, notably as a production manager with Merv Griffin Productions. Around 1990, Tama Manufacturing began exclusively sewing pants for the manufacturer, Alfred Dunner. Fortunately, purchases of the Alfred Dunner brand grew rapidly during this time period. At its peak, Tama Manufacturing employed close to 400 people and used twelve subcontractors to meet Alfred Dunner’s needs. Alfred Dunner continued their relationship with Tama Manufacturing until 2009.
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2013-10-12
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
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Tama Fogelman
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5.4 February 5, 2016 Tama Fogelman, February 5, 2016 LVTNT-04 9:48 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Tama Fogelman Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 FogelmanTama_20160205.mp4 1.0:|29(8)|52(16)|75(9)|98(2)|125(4)|150(3)|177(7)|202(14)|243(4)|266(10) 0 https://youtu.be/m1ztFsMJSl0 YouTube video 0 Introduction—Tama Fogelman SC: Today is the 5th of November- of February, I was going to say November. 
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 ; TF: Thank you.
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 ; SC: Thank you. I hear you. Fifth of February, 2016. And what is your full name? 
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 ; TF: Tama Kivert Fogelman. 
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 ; SC: And could you- What is your address? 
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 ; TF: 3057 Fairfield Drive, Allentown, P.A. 0 30 Tama's Religious Observances SC: [W]e want to start with just stories about how you joined the synagogue and your religious life? 
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 ; TF: Okay, well, I think I can do that. My husband and I joined the reform Temple originally. We were married at Bethel, which is- Oh what is that?
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 ; GE: Conservative. 
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 ; TF: Conservative, right. And then we had our daughter and she was about eight or nine years old when you start religious training. And we thought we would join K.I. because it was more how we lived and how we believed. And so that's what we did, and at that time, you went to the rabbi's house- home on a Friday. It was very, very small. Maybe it was still at 13th Street, the reformed, I don't remember. But then we had other children, we had two more- we had two boys and we had another daughter ; and they all chose different synagogues, because that's who they were friendly with. And we felt very comfortable joining others also, we were part of the whole community. That's how we felt. We were friendly with different people of different beliefs in Judaism, and we were very comfortable with that. 0 111 Tama's Joy as Wife and Mother SC: Well, what are some of your favorite family memories, as a wife and mother? 
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 ; TF: Oh my gosh. So many, I don't know. We always loved getting together for everybody's birthdays. You know, my sister and my parents and—we always had two parties for our children, one with just their friends and one with the family. And it was always fun and wonderful and it was wonderful. I was very happy being a wife and mother, that's how I- There was nothing else I wanted to do at that time. But as I was telling Gail, you know, every day was a new day. Your life is evolving all the time, even though you're in the same job. But it- it changes all the time. So- And my husband, we were on the same page about many things. 0 322 Tama's Children, Grandchildren, and Great-Grandchildren SC: With each one of them, what is something that's really memorable for each one of them? Or where they are right now, what are they doing? 
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 ; TF: Oh my gosh. Well, and you know, it would take forever, but—well the one son is in town now. He- He was in our business. Of course, it closed. Now he's started a business in Philadelphia called Intelligent Office, and it's like a- What do you call those offices? What's the word?
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 ; GE: Sharing? 
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 ; TF: Well yeah, that, but it has another name to it. You know, they offer all kinds of help in office work—phone, services, rooms. I mean, it's a beautiful office. It's a- It's a- What do you call it that he bought?
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 ; GE: Oh, a franchise?
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 ; TF: Yeah, a franchise. And he seems very well-suited for this kind of thing—to bring in customers all the time, and... He likes meeting people. Well, you met him. He likes talking to people and hearing, you know, what they're doing. So he's been at that a few years now. So that's good. 
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 ; SC: This is Mark?
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 ; TF: That’s Mark, yeah. And Steve is in New York now, and he’s- he's a writer, an actor, and that kind of thing. And our oldest daughter is a visiting nurse. She's still doing it at sixty-two years old, she still is doing that. She likes it. And then our youngest daughter works for Riderwood. I don't know if you ever heard of that whole franchise of retirement villages, of big villages, very nice. So she- She became a real estate agent and then she went into this job. So she helps people, she helps recruit people and helps them with their move to the- to the facility. So she likes it. She's very good. So- And you know, I have a lot of grandchildren, and great-grandchildren—I have seven great-grandchildren now. 0 460 What Gave You the Most Meaning as Wife and Mother? SC: One other thing though—what meant the most, what gave you the most meaning of being a wife and mother?
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 ; TF: That's a very good question. I wish I had given it more thought. I think just to see them all become good people and they were- they were kind people, they were good people. They weren't mean spirited that I could see. I mean, maybe they had their moments, I'm not saying that. But in general, it felt good to see how they developed and- and- and wanted to do something in the- in the world. I-
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 ; SC: Seems like you and Jules were good parents.
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 ; TF: Well, I don’t know.
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 ; SC: That’s wonderful, wow.
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 ; TF: Well, that's good. But I mean, there were so many things I wanted to tell you. My sister said I should write it down. I said, “Oh, don't worry. I'll remember everything.”
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 ; SC: But it’s your view at this time.
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 ; TF: At that time, that’s right. 0 523 Fogelman Family's Synagogue Affiliations GE: With your four children, how they ended up being at different synagogues when they were growing up? 
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 ; TF: Oh, that's right, yes, that’s right. What didn't I already say that online?
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 ; GE: Well you said that you belonged to different synagogues, but here, you know- Each one ended.
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 ; TF: Okay, that’s right. Each one ended. Well the two girls ended at the Reform Synagogue. And the two- The one boy was bar mitzvahed at Bethel, where we had been married. And the other one at Sons of Israel, the Orthodox, because their friends were there. And so we never had to have a fuss about- to go to services. They- They- You know, they went with their friends. We went to the different ones, too. We felt very comfortable wherever we were. And we knew people in all the synagogues and it was very pleasant, very easy. 0 MovingImage Tama talks about the joy of growing up in Northampton and, later living in Allentown as wife and mother Interview with Tama Fogelman, February 5, 2016 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is the 5th of November- of February, I was going to say November. TAMA FOGELMAN: Thank you. SC: Thank you. I hear you. Fifth of February, 2016. And what is your full name? TF: Tama Kivert Fogelman. SC: And could you- What is your address? TF: 3057 Fairfield Drive, Allentown, P.A. SC: And so, we want to start with just stories about how you joined the synagogue and your religious life? TF: Okay, well, I think I can do that. My husband and I joined the reform Temple originally. We were married at Bethel, which is- Oh what is that? GAIL EISENBERG: Conservative. TF: Conservative, right. And then we had our daughter and she was about eight or nine years old when you start religious training. And we thought we would join K.I. because it was more how we lived and how we believed. And so that's what we did, and at that time, you went to the rabbi's house- home on a Friday. It was very, very small. Maybe it was still at 13th Street, the reformed, I don't remember. But then we had other children, we had two more- we had two boys and we had another daughter ; and they all chose different synagogues, because that's who they were friendly with. And we felt very comfortable joining others also, we were part of the whole community. That's how we felt. We were friendly with different people of different beliefs in Judaism, and we were very comfortable with that. What else can I tell you? SC: Well, what are some of your favorite family memories, as a wife and mother? TF: Oh my gosh. So many, I don't know. We always loved getting together for everybody's birthdays. You know, my sister and my parents and--we always had two parties for our children, one with just their friends and one with the family. And it was always fun and wonderful and it was wonderful. I was very happy being a wife and mother, that's how I- There was nothing else I wanted to do at that time. But as I was telling Gail, you know, every day was a new day. Your life is evolving all the time, even though you're in the same job. But it- it changes all the time. So- And my husband, we were on the same page about many things. So that made it very nice. What? GE: Do you have a story you want to share of that- about you and Jules? Either as a young couple, before you had children, or-- TF: Well, it seemed like we always had children! I don't know, we- We just got along very well, I I mean, for the most part. There was not a lot of stress in our life. I'll tell you one funny story. We- I think we only had one child then, and we lived in a little house near my parents. And so we shared a car. We had one car. He took it to work. And then if- and then I went with- with my parents- my mother or something, if I had something to do. Or if he- If I needed the car, then he went with my father to work. So one time I remember that I borrowed the car, returned it, you know, and went to work the next day. And he called me, he said, "You know," he said, "you didn't fill up the tank, the gas tank. I ran out of gas." Oh, I felt so bad. "Oh, I'm so sorry, honey!" Then another time I borrowed the car and I did it again. But the thing that- and I- I felt bad. But from then on, I never did--the whole rest of my life, I never let it get below half, half full, half empty, whatever. But the point about him was he never yelled at me. Isn't that sweet? Because he knew, you know, I didn't do it on purpose and I felt bad. But I'm just telling you what type of person he was. And that's- that's what our relationship was. I think we had a lot of respect for each other and we had a lot of fun. He was- He was a lot of fun, and I guess I was, too. And- And that was our focus--to have fun with our children, also. So that's how we lived. SC: What are your- What are your favorite stories about your children, being a mother to your children? TF: Oh, yeah, oh my gosh. There's just so many, you know, each one--now I remember people saying, "Well, boys are this way, girls are another way." I never thought that way. To me, they were individuals and that's how I treated them. Really, as individuals. And I'm sure we made a lot of mistakes, I'm not saying that, but mostly they were good kids, they turned out very nice people, I think. Loving and good, you know, so we- we had a good life with them. We had a lot of trials and tribulations along the way with them, but- but it was a good family all- all the way around, yeah. SC: What- what- With each one of them, what is something that's really memorable for each one of them? Or where they are right now, what are they doing? TF: Oh my gosh. Well, and you know, it would take forever, but--well the one son is in town now. He- He was in our business. Of course, it closed. Now he's started a business in Philadelphia called Intelligent Office, and it's like a- What do you call those offices? What's the word? GE: Sharing? TF: Well yeah, that, but it has another name to it. You know, they offer all kinds of help in office work--phone, services, rooms. I mean, it's a beautiful office. It's a- It's a- What do you call it that he bought? GE: Oh, a franchise? TF: Yeah, a franchise. And he seems very well-suited for this kind of thing--to bring in customers all the time, and... He likes meeting people. Well, you met him. He likes talking to people and hearing, you know, what they're doing. So he's been at that a few years now. So that's good. SC: This is Mark? TF: That's Mark, yeah. And Steve is in New York now, and he's- he's a writer, an actor, and that kind of thing. And our oldest daughter is a visiting nurse. She's still doing it at sixty-two years old, she still is doing that. She likes it. And then our youngest daughter works for Riderwood. I don't know if you ever heard of that whole franchise of retirement villages, of big villages, very nice. So she- She became a real estate agent and then she went into this job. So she helps people, she helps recruit people and helps them with their move to the- to the facility. So she likes it. She's very good. So- And you know, I have a lot of grandchildren, and great-grandchildren--I have seven great-grandchildren now. So it's very exciting to hear what they're all doing, and I have to write down what they say they're doing, because I may not remember it all, it's so foreign to me, but I like learning about it, you know? So what else did you want to know? GE: I think that's fine. SC: Yeah, that's fine. One other thing though--what meant the most, what gave you the most meaning of being a wife and mother? TF: That's a very good question. I wish I had given it more thought. I think just to see them all become good people and they were- they were kind people, they were good people. They weren't mean spirited that I could see. I mean, maybe they had their moments, I'm not saying that. But in general, it felt good to see how they developed and- and- and wanted to do something in the- in the world. I- SC: Seems like you and Jules were good parents. TF: Well, I don't know. SC: That's wonderful, wow. TF: Well, that's good. But I mean, there were so many things I wanted to tell you. My sister said I should write it down. I said, "Oh, don't worry. I'll remember everything." SC: But it's your view at this time. TF: At that time, that's right. SC: And so that's fine. TF: Yeah, that's right. GE: One- One last story, since you had said it earlier and I just thought it was very cute. With your four children, how they ended up being at different synagogues when they were growing up? TF: Oh, that's right, yes, that's right. What didn't I already say that online? GE: Well you said that you belonged to different synagogues, but here, you know- Each one ended. TF: Okay, that's right. Each one ended. Well the two girls ended at the Reform Synagogue. And the two- The one boy was bar mitzvahed at Bethel, where we had been married. And the other one at Sons of Israel, the Orthodox, because their friends were there. And so we never had to have a fuss about- to go to services. They- They- You know, they went with their friends. We went to the different ones, too. We felt very comfortable wherever we were. And we knew people in all the synagogues and it was very pleasant, very easy. SC: That's good. Thank you. GE: Thank you, that's wonderful. And I'm going to walk you down, so he- TF: I don't think I want to see it, though. GE: No, no, no, no, no. It will be beautiful. TF: Because I'm not good at this at all. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Tama Fogelman, February 5, 2016
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Tama talks about the joy of growing up in Northampton and, later living in Allentown as wife and mother
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
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Marlene Finkelstein
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5.4 June 23, 2014 Marlene Finkelstein, June 23, 2014 LVTNT-23 1:00:56 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Marlene Finkelstein Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 FinkelsteinMarlene_20140623 1.0:|21(4)|36(6)|53(5)|68(15)|85(6)|100(7)|119(10)|136(2)|147(7)|162(2)|175(4)|188(17)|205(11)|224(3)|239(13)|256(8)|273(5)|294(3)|313(5)|326(15)|341(10)|360(16)|377(14)|396(3)|411(6)|430(10)|447(10)|468(2)|495(12)|520(7)|539(2)|560(3)|583(13)|600(16)|619(5)|642(11)|669(11)|694(14)|715(16)|732(15)|757(17)|774(8)|791(3)|804(3)|823(8)|844(10)|863(10)|884(4)|911(6)|928(19)|945(8)|960(17)|979(8)|1008(8)|1035(6)|1058(5)|1081(7)|1098(13)|1119(3)|1156(6)|1173(10) 0 https://youtu.be/_gD3b7chGqs YouTube video 0 Introduction - Marlene Finkelstein née Freedman SC: Today is Monday, June 23rd 2014 and interview with Marlene Finkelstein. So can you say your whole name, when you were born, where you were born to put yourself into context.
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 ; MF: Sure, I'm Marlene, my middle name Barbara, that I never use, and my maiden name is Friedman and I was born on January 29, 1943. I believe in the Bronx in New York. 0 43 Family History—Mother's Childhood, 1914 to 1930 SC: So can we go back to your parents and grandparents and great grandparents? As far back as you know. Whatever you can do.
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 ; MF: I don't know as much about my mother's family. My mother's name was Marilyn Friedman - actually, her real name I believe was Minnie, and she hated that name and eventually legally changed it to Marilyn. Her maiden name was Sobel, and she was the daughter of Molly and Joseph Sobel, both of whom I believe were born in the States. I never knew either one of them ; they both died before I was born. As a matter of fact my mother's mother died when my mother was 9 years old. Her father wasn't a nice man, so she told me. He had another woman he was keeping while he had his wife and six children to care for. Their life was not a good one and when my mother's mother, Molly died, my mother was nine, her father took my mother's three older siblings and went to Boston and married the woman that he had been seeing. And actually had a couple more children with her who I - I have relatives somewhere that I have no knowledge of. And my mother refused to go with him because she was very angry with him, and she had two younger brothers. They went to live with an aunt for a short period of time, and the aunt couldn't keep them, so they went into an orphanage. 0 305 Father's Family History MF: My father is Sydney Freidman. His real name was Joshua. And the Hebrew version of Joshua was Yahushua. The Yiddish diminutive version was Shia so they called him Shia. But when he started school, they told his mother that he needed a more English name, so they came up with Sydney. Joshua certainly would have been preferable, but that's what it was.
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 ; SC: Do you know your mothers birth date? 
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 ; MF: Yes, it was June 15th, 1914.
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 ; SC: And how about your father’s?
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 ; MF: And my father's was January 22nd, 1913. So they were close in age, and my father told the story that they lived around the comer, I guess that rumor got around that there was a very cute young woman living with Aunt Sarah, and so he had to go check it out for himself. And that's how my parents met. So that's kind of a nice story. 0 742 Guardians of Young Judaea Orphanage MF: And my cousin went to the orphanage, which is now like a community center or whatever, and asked if they might still have the records. And lo and behold, down in the basement, I have goosebumps, they still had the records. So I got together with all my cousins this past fall, and they brought the records which was amazing to read and learn about and get to see, even as a social worker, to get to see how- and everything was hand written notes, and they were really just focused on the physical health of the children. I mean there was no discussion in any of the notes about their mental health, which I found fascinating. They were concerned that Helen was wetting the bed, which would probably have been very normal reactions of young children whose family was, you know disrupted, and so on. But, I was a little appalled by this... I discovered they were doing vaginal exams on these young girls. I don't know why. I would love to find out why. But I found that very upsetting to read that. Whether they were looking for some kind of infection that might have been causing the bedwetting, you know use your head.
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 ; SC: Do you know if it was a religiously connected orphanage or if it was a settlement house type.
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 ; MF: It was called something like, the Guardians of Young Judea, it was definitely Jewish affiliated facility. 0 1125 Marlene Finkelstein's Childhood and Education SC: So, can you talk about your childhood, and your schooling, and any work that you've had from doing something really small when you were young all the way through.
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 ; MF: I could try, I was born, as I said, I think it was Montefiore Hospital, in the Bronx, or it might have just been in Manhattan-- January 29, 1943. It was the war years, and soon after I was born, my father was drafted into the navy. And my mother who was pretty disconnected from her family, I mean she had no contact with her father or - she had one sister who she stayed close to, Elsie, and Artie. Otherwise, she really didn't have- she had taken my father's family. That really was her family. So when my father was drafted, my mother was in a panic, and she went and lived with Judith, my father's older sister, and her husband, Mike, who was, I guess was 4F, he had some back issues, whatever, so he didn't get drafted. You know, was absolved. And so we lived with them, and Judith and Mike had two sons, Elliot, who was three years older than me, and Robert, who was two months younger than I am. We lost Elliot two years ago to lung cancer. But, Robert and I are still close. 0 1765 College and Career SC: So you were in college, you went to college.
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 ; MF: I did.
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 ; SC: And after college, or during college, can you go from that point on?
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 ; MF: Sure, sure. By the way, I knew I wanted to be a psychologist, therapist, counselor, whatever, when I was about 6 years old. I didn't even know the name for it but I was sort of fascinated by that. And when I went to college, and I said I wanted to major in psychology, my mother was very disapproving. And she certainly didn't want me to be a social worker because, you know, what kind of job is that? 0 1810 Mother's Involvement in the Garment Industry MF: My mother considered herself a business woman. I should have mentioned this. But my mother worked. Which was unusual in those days, she worked because she wasn't satisfied that my father was making enough money. But she was very proud about the fact that she could work, and she never even graduated high school, I don't believe. And she was a bookkeeper. And she was a very good bookkeeper, and she had worked in the garment industry for a while. As a bookkeeper with my uncle Mike, Judith's husband, who was the controller in the same office where my mother was a bookkeeper.
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 ; SC: Were they manufacturers? Do you know?
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 ; MF: Yes, they were manufacturers. They were making... what were they making? It wasn't they might have been making... they were making clothes of some kind... because when my mother went back to work, she felt very guilty, and she came home at the end of the first week, or when she got paid, with a little outfit for me. 0 1961 Meeting Arnie Finkelstein MF: Hunter College meant commuting. And it was an all-girls school, but you know, I dated a lot and those were the days that we dated. In the meantime, my Uncle Mike, who had worked in the garment industry, he had a longing to own his own business, he wanted like a women's clothing store, dress shop, or whatever. And he bought a place called Dobnoffs, in downtown Allentown. And so they left New York, Aunt Judith and Uncle Mike, and moved to Allentown in 1960? About that.
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 ; AF: Right around there.
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 ; MF: Yeah, I graduated high school in ‘59 I guess, and I started college in ‘59 so it was ‘61. My aunt lived on Livingston Street, my aunt and uncle. And, she had a next door neighbor named Ruth Bloom, who saw my picture in my aunt's house and said she'd be nice for Mina's son. So Mina's son was in the air force in Oklahoma, at the time. And I got a call from my aunt, in June, I had just finished my final exams, and I wanted to go party, and she told my mother I had to come out, that she had a nice boy for me to meet. 0 2247 Israel "Ukie" Freedman and Kirkland Hall Suits MF: [M]y parents didn't have a lot of money, but my Uncle Ukie, that was my father's second younger brother.
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 ; SC: Israel.
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 ; MF: Right. He married very late, he never had children, and there was a period of time he lived with us, and he adored me. He was- I- you know the sun rose and set with me. And he was a salesman in the garment industry for a company called Kirkland Hall Suits. I think I still have a couple of his suits hanging in the closet because I can't bear to get rid of them. But he had the wherewithal to send me to camp. 0 2442 The '60s—Marriage, Children, Teaching, and Volunteer Work GE: February 63' is when you got married.
 ; 
 ; MF: Yes February 24, 1963. So yeah there was no time to work then. I think I might have- I remember a little job working at a JCC with a group of girls, you know, briefly. But that was- it might have been in that period of time. And then I came out to Allentown as a new bride. And I was Mina Finkelstein's Daughter in law. Everybody knew my mother in law because she was this beautiful woman who really had a spell on the community. And she was president of the sisterhood, and she'd been president of Hadassah and was - and I was very open to her. She had great style, and she taught me lots of things and so I she made me a life member of Hadassah right away and the sisterhood, and I got involved in a lot of the organizations. But I also had a teaching degree, so- I mean you can't do much with a bachelors in psychology, and I thought about graduate school, but I wasn't clear yet where I wanted to go, or what I wanted. So my aunt Judith arranged for me to meet Judy Freeman, who ran the nursery school at the JCC. And Judy was thrilled and she hired me right away, and so I worked for two years at the JCC, Miss Marlene. And I still have some of my earliest students, my three and four year olds, still call me Miss Marlene when they see me today, which is hysterical. 0 2640 Inspiration for "Hakol"—Jewish Community Newspaper MF: Maxine and I met the first year as a new bride here. I was very lonely, and everyone said to me. Wait, Maxine Kivert is going to come back to town. When you meet her, you and Maxine are going to be great friends. And, Maxine knew about me because before Arnan met me, he had dated another girl in town who Maxine was friendly with, so Maxine knew about me, and I knew about her. And we met I think at an-- I remember at an ORT-- yeah, I was involved with the ORT also... event. And we knew each other. I mean we just immediately knew each other. And we became very fast friends. Both our husbands were in the textile business, so that was... And she went on to have three daughters, and we had three daughters ha-ha. So we had a lot of connections. And the first thing that Maxine and I did together was we started a Hadassah Study Group. There was a Woman's Study Group that my mother in law belonged to. And the older women belonged to. But we had children, and we were home during the day, it was harder to get babysitters. So we started an evening study group. That was just fabulous. And the first year we asked the rabbis to come and talk, and at the end of that we said, you know we're all college graduates, we can do a better job than they did. They sort of were winging it, so we would pick a topic. Hadassah would give us some ideas, and we would give out the assignments. 0 2965 Returning to School—Master's of Social Work and the Alliance for Creative Development MF: I was also still involved in study groups and I remember giving a paper. There were two in a row, one was on interestingly, the growing threat of radical Islam, and um, I remember I learned all about the Shiites, and the Sunni's and so on. And one was on Theodore Herzl. And I remember coming home and Arnan said, how did it go, and I said, it was an A paper. It's time for me to go back to school, and you know, do it for myself. So I knew I wanted psychology. I started looking around for a program, and, by the way, I was also on the board of Jewish Family Service. And, Amy Miller Cohen, who was a psychologist in Bethlehem, I had given the paper at her house. And I was talking with her about going back to school and getting a masters, and she said to me, “Marlene, go get an MSW.” and I said, “Really?” And she said, “It'll take you less time, you're not a little kid anymore,” I was about 37, 38, and she said, “and you'll do what you want to do. '' So Marywood had a program at DeSales. And so I went. It took me three years because it was a part time program, but I got my MSW, and I had interned at Quakertown Hospital in the Psychiatric unit as part of the program, and I stayed on there, and worked in patient psyche for another ten years. And it was with a group called the Alliance for Creative Development. We were psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers-- creative therapists. It was a wonderful program, it was before managed care and all that stuff. And where we really could work with patients as a team and see results. It was a very very exciting time. 0 3200 Involvement in Husband's Textile Business GE: What relationship or what connections did you have to the family business, if any?
 ; 
 ; MF: Well, we tried for about two weeks for me to come keep some books for you. That didn't work. Ha-ha
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 ; AM: She was our model. Every so often we would have an experimental- 
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 ; MF: Oh this is a very funny story.
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 ; AF: Yeah,
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 ; MF: I had, I've always had a dressmaker because of my size, whatever I would always buy always had to be fixed. So Arnan had this new experimental fabric that they were making.
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 ; AF: Well we were just playing with it.
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 ; MF: Yeah, so I took it to my dressmaker, this is before we were married, and she made me a bathing suit out of it for our honeymoon. 0 3337 Relationship with in-Laws MF: I had a pretty wonderful and loving relationship with my in-laws, especially with my mother-in-law. My father-in-law was a quiet man, he didn't talk very much. And most of the time he wanted to talk to Arnan about business things. But he would come over to see the grandchildren, I still joke about - he would look, he would see they were okay, and then he would say, “Okay Mina Finkelstein, it's time to go home!” And she would say, “George! We just got here!” 
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 ; GE: Where did they live?
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 ; MF: They lived on Livingston and twenty . . . and Ott. On the corner of Livingston and Ott. And our prior home was on 26th and Highland. So we were always in close proximity. 0 3399 Marlene Finkelstein's Values and Creative Inspirations SC: What do you value most in life? 
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 ; MF: Well, probably my family, first and foremost, and the connections and the relationships. I would have to make that you know...
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 ; SC: Yes. And what has made you feel the most creative or artistic in the broadest sense, or completed in life.
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 ; MF: Well, I think I have a great sense of accomplishment about the newspaper, not the fact that I helped to start it, and it's still an ongoing institution, I think feels very wonderful. 0 3542 The Hakol Today GE: [W]ith the Hakol, so you started, you were there for about four years, then it went on for another year, I know of it today, tell me did it lapse?
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 ; MF: No it didn't lapse, it-
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 ; GE: So it continued the whole-
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 ; MF: But it wasn't until I'm trying to remember, did Ned Shulman do it? Maggie Levine was still here.
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 ; AF: No.
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 ; GE: I know Sharon Bernstein I think I think at one point maybe- 
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 ; MF: Yeah that was a while-
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 ; AF: Somebody took it over after you know- 
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 ; MF: Whoever did it until they finally-
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 ; AF: But then it became professional. 0 MovingImage Marlene Finkelstein talks about growing up in New York City, attending Hunter College, and then coming to Allentown at the suggestion of her aunt and uncle to meet a nice young man, Arnan Finkelstein. After Marlene married Arnan and moved to Allentown she started a family and got immersed in the Jewish community. Marlene and her dear friend Maxine Tanenbaum (now Kline) started an evening Hadassah study session and later the Hakol (monthly Jewish newspaper published by the Jewish Federation). Marlene returned to school part-time to earn an MSW (Masters of Social Work). She then worked in the field of psychology/social work for more than twenty-five years. .
 ; Interview with Marlene Finkelstein, June 23, 2014 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is Monday, June 23rd 2014 and interview with Marlene Finkelstein. So can you say your whole name, when you were born, where you were born to put yourself into context. MARLENE FINKELSTEIN: Sure, I'm Marlene, my middle name Barbara, that I never use, and my maiden name is Friedman and I was born on January 29, 1943. I believe in the Bronx in New York. SC: So can we go back to your parents and grandparents and great grandparents? As far back as you know. Whatever you can do. MF: I don't know as much about my mother's family. My mother's name was Marilyn Friedman - actually, her real name I believe was Minnie, and she hated that name and eventually legally changed it to Marilyn. Her maiden name was Sobel, and she was the daughter of Molly and Joseph Sobel, both of whom I believe were born in the States. I never knew either one of them ; they both died before I was born. As a matter of fact my mother's mother died when my mother was 9 years old. Her father wasn't a nice man, so she told me. He had another woman he was keeping while he had his wife and six children to care for. Their life was not a good one and when my mother's mother, Molly died, my mother was nine, her father took my mother's three older siblings and went to Boston and married the woman that he had been seeing. And actually had a couple more children with her who I - I have relatives somewhere that I have no knowledge of. And my mother refused to go with him because she was very angry with him, and she had two younger brothers. They went to live with an aunt for a short period of time, and the aunt couldn't keep them, so they went into an orphanage. And in the orphanage, her youngest- no her next brother, there were two brothers, Sammy and Artie. Sammy was closer in age to her, I guess. And he apparently ran out, and jumped on the back of a truck and was killed on her watch. So, I think that affected her deeply. But she always looked after Artie, her younger brother. And they went onto foster care, he with her. And that was a very negative experience for her, as well. She felt like she was kind of a Cinderella person, treated like a servant in the house, but they put on a good front. They were German Jews and historically, the German Jews weren't terribly uh, fond of uh, the Polish, Russian Jews. They thought they were beneath them and apparently treated my mother accordingly. My mother was always very vocal about not liking German Jews because of that. So when she turned sixteen, she went to the um, offices where they had... placed her and told them that she was sixteen, she knew she could get working papers, and she wanted to go get a job. And she was not going back to that house anymore. And there was a woman in the office who said, where will you go tonight, and she said, "I don't know, and I don't care, but I'm not going back there." And she said, "Well, my mother sometimes takes in borders. Why don't you come home with me?" And that turned out to be my father's cousins so that's how my mother met my father. My father is Sydney Freidman. His real name was Joshua. And the Hebrew version of Joshua was Yahushua. The Yiddish diminutive version was Shia so they called him Shia. But when he started school, they told his mother that he needed a more English name, so they came up with Sydney. Joshua certainly would have been preferable, but that's what it was. SC: Do you know your mothers birth date? MF: Yes, it was June 15th, 1914. SC: And how about your father's? MF: And my father's was January 22nd, 1913. So they were close in age, and my father told the story that they lived around the comer, I guess that rumor got around that there was a very cute young woman living with Aunt Sarah, and so he had to go check it out for himself. And that's how my parents met. So that's kind of a nice story. SC: It is. Do you know where in Poland/Russia they came from, what town? Each of the families. MF: No, I know my father's... grandparents came from somewhere in the Pale of Settlement, around . . . it could have been around Kiev. Arnan, do you know? They actually, it was an interesting story because the mother's-- this is my father's grandmother-- her name- I actually have a picture of them, it's amazing. Her name, I believe, was Yetta and her last name was Kleinman. She married a man named Fayvel Livinstein. ARNAN FINKELSTEIN: Levinstein. MF: Levinstein. But he took her family name to avoid the Russian draft. Which was very bad in those years. So that they were able to leave and get out of Russia and come to this country. They had four sons, and then Rebecca, my father's mother, and then one more son, Philip, who ultimately became a rabbi out in, first in Minneapolis, and then he went on to Portland, Oregon. And actually I'm still in touch with his granddaughter. But it was a very large family. And this Aunt Sarah, was the wife of one of Rebecca's brothers so they were all first cousins to my father. And they had, I don't know, about six daughters. That the family, my mother went to live with, was named Kleinman. And so I probably know more about the Kleinmen family. My understanding is that she met my father's father, whose name was Wolf Frieman, and he was from I believe Tarnogrod, which was - I'm not sure if that was Poland or . . . Arnan - pictures hanging downstairs, and it has the name and the date on it. It's to the left of the bookcase. . . I don't know much about my grandfather except- my father's father. Except that he was the only grandparent I knew. Rebecca also died very young. She was 38. Also a similar kind of story. My father's mother, Rebecca Klienman, died after- she also had six children. And my father was the second oldest, the oldest was Judith, who plays a role in how I met Arnie, and then there were two brothers, Heshie and Ukie. It was Hershel I guess and Yisrael, there. And then Helen and Ruthie. And when Rebecca died, at the age of 38, Ruthie the youngest, was about a year and a half, and my grandfather who was a sweet man, had no ability to earn a living, he could daven well, but that was pretty much it. And so he -I don't know, he sold Encyclopedia Judaica. No, Britannica. You know the encyclopedias door to door, or whatever he could. And he went to- uh, I guess orphanages were not uncommon then, and he kept Judith and my father with him, I believe to take care of him, and the next two, Heshie and Ukie, went to live with an Aunt. And the two youngest, Helen and Ruthie, went into an orphanage. Helen died this past spring. She was the last of the six. And my cousin went to the orphanage, which is now like a community center or whatever, and asked if they might still have the records. And lo and behold, down in the basement, I have goosebumps, they still had the records. So I got together with all my cousins this past fall, and they brought the records which was amazing to read and learn about and get to see, even as a social worker, to get to see how- and everything was hand written notes, and they were really just focused on the physical health of the children. I mean there was no discussion in any of the notes about their mental health, which I found fascinating. They were concerned that Helen was wetting the bed, which would probably have been very normal reactions of young children whose family was, you know disrupted, and so on. But, I was a little appalled by this... I discovered they were doing vaginal exams on these young girls. I don't know why. I would love to find out why. But I found that very upsetting to read that. Whether they were looking for some kind of infection that might have been causing the bedwetting, you know use your head. SC: Do you know if it was a religiously connected orphanage or if it was a settlement house type. MF: It was called something like, the Guardians of Young Judea, it was definitely Jewish affiliated facility. And my grandfather would have chosen that because he was quite Orthodox very ... he was always davening as I remember. Keeping Kosher was very important to him, and you know, I know my aunt who was three years older than my father, really kept a home for them, and when my father was dying at the age of ninety nine, he kept telling me that he saw Judith. So I know that he thought of her almost more like his mother, because his mother had died-- it was right after his bar mitzvah, that his mother died so he was 13 and she was 16. And the two boys, the two younger ones I guess, went out and got jobs as soon as they could, and Helen didn't go home until my father and his sister were both married so my grandfather had no way to take care of them anymore. So Helen must have been about 14 at the time. So she went home, and she left, and Ruthie was still in the orphanage, and I thought for sure there would be some notes about Ruthie's reaction to Helen leaving, but no, there wasn't. I was so surprised. And Helen had experienced the trauma, when she was a little younger at the orphanage, they had gone on an outing to the beach, and there was one of those waves that came in and took children out into the water. And she was rescued but a couple of the children died. And there were notes about the trip but nothing about the tragedy. And, again, I wondered about the psychological impact. She was determined to learn to swim after that, I'm told. So it is quite an amazing story of their lives. SC: Wow, was that in the Bronx? MF: It was in Brooklyn. SC: That makes sense, yes. MF: It was all in Brooklyn, and I know they moved around a lot. I also know from my father, that at one point, when his mother was still alive - so when he was a young boy - because she was the only female in her family, she took in her parents along with all these children and this sweet husband who couldn't earn a living. I can't imagine... I know that her brothers weren't thrilled with my grandfather. But they. . . and they met. Aunt Helen told me this more recently. I never knew how my grandparents met. They were living in the same tenement house I guess, and somebody said, you know, upstairs there's a nice man. So it was kind of a shidduch. And I know that my father and my aunts were very proud of the fact that their mother spoke perfect English and actually, she was a kind of teacher. As much as a teacher could be. This is my grandmother, I guess. SC: That's wonderful. Just a natural skill. MF: Yeah. I think it is. Because my aunt went on to be a teacher. My father was a teacher. SC: So, can you talk about your childhood, and your schooling, and any work that you've had from doing something really small when you were young all the way through. MF: I could try, I was born, as I said, I think it was Montefiore Hospital, in the Bronx, or it might have just been in Manhattan-- January 29, 1943. It was the war years, and soon after I was born, my father was drafted into the navy. And my mother who was pretty disconnected from her family, I mean she had no contact with her father or - she had one sister who she stayed close to, Elsie, and Artie. Otherwise, she really didn't have- she had taken my father's family. That really was her family. So when my father was drafted, my mother was in a panic, and she went and lived with Judith, my father's older sister, and her husband, Mike, who was, I guess was 4F, he had some back issues, whatever, so he didn't get drafted. You know, was absolved. And so we lived with them, and Judith and Mike had two sons, Elliot, who was three years older than me, and Robert, who was two months younger than I am. We lost Elliot two years ago to lung cancer. But, Robert and I are still close. SC: Do you know what ship your dad was on? Or what was it? MF: He never went on a ship. He got sent.. SC: Good, that's very good. MF: He ended up in Oakland, California, and he was the yeoman to the admiral. My father had gone to college. He went at nights for probably a total of fourteen years. He went to Brooklyn College and got a degree. First in economics, and when he graduated there weren't any jobs to be had, and he went back and he studied printing-- well he had worked for a printer all along then -- so he got some kind of degree or certification in printing as well. And when he was drafted, because he had a degree in economics they thought he would be a good statistician for the Navy, so he did work as the yeoman, and stayed in Oakland, stayed stateside. So my mother, who was a gutsy lady, took me, at eighteen months, and flew cross country with me. Getting bumped all along the way because you had to get. . . had to leave your seat for servicemen who were traveling. And we lived in Oakland, California. Until I was about three. So I guess it was about a year and a half. I know that my father wanted to stay out there, he loved it out there, but my mother wanted to come back and have whatever family she had. So we did come back. When we came back, we lived in Maspeth, Queens because that's where Judith and Mike had bought a home and were living there. And we lived in their basement. Like mother had made- this area was the living room, and this was the bedroom, and there were screens and so on. But they shared the kitchen of course, and I remember that as a fun time because I had two immediate playmates, my two cousins, and we lived there just for about a year I guess, and my father got a job at the [New York] World Telegram & ; Sun as a proofreader in New York. So we could afford an apartment. We moved to Elmhurst, Queens, which was like the next little town over. And that's really where I grew up, and in that house it was a two family house. And the people who lived upstairs-- their name was Marlow, which doesn't sound like a Jewish name but the name had been Asmilowsky--and Murray and Gussy Marlow were very gracious landlords. And Murray was an attorney, had never gone to law school, but he was an attorney. And they had two children. They had a son George who was two years older than me, and who I-- to this day-- I consider as a brother. I'm an old woman. I never had siblings, so you know, I was four, he was six and we're still very close. And we talk every week or couple of weeks, and our kids grew up together so it's very nice. But I lived in that house until I met Arnan. I went to elementary school and it was within walking distance... SC: What was its name? The elementary school. Do you remember? MF: It was PS102. SC: Oh great! New York, its PS. MF: And then and New York then had a program called the SP or the RA, rapid advance, or special progress, and you had to take an exam to pass, to get into it, and I did and I passed, and it allowed me to go from seventh grade to ninth grade. I skipped eighth grade. So - and that was junior high school '73, it was William Cowper, I believe it was, Junior High School. And so I was there for two years, I remember my aunt used to substitute teach there because sometimes I'd be very daring and put on some lipstick, and then be afraid she would see me in the halls with lipstick on. And when I graduated there I went to Newtown High School, which was in walking distance also from my home. And I was in the honors program for some classes. I was young, I was very young, the birth date . . . I graduated, I was still 16. So I wanted to go to college, there was no question about that, and I wanted -- I thought I wanted to go away to college. But I knew it would be a financial hardship for my parents, so I made a decision to go to one of the city colleges, and I went to Hunter College in Manhattan. And my first day there, I still think it's a funny story because it was a single office building on Park Avenue and 68th Street, right across the street from the Russian Embassy, and it housed an elementary school for exceptionally bright students, and Hunter High School, which was also a school you had to take an exam to get into. So, my first day, I went into the elevator and the elevator operator took me up to the seventh floor, which was the elementary school because I looked so young, and I was small, and I was very upset. And I came home, and I put on high heels, the four-inch spike kind, and I wore them for four years of college because in those days you couldn't wear-- especially in a city school, you had to wear a skirt. You couldn't wear pants, that was unheard of. So anyway that was kind of funny. SC: So, this is going to end, so I'm going to take this one out - SC: This is Tape two - DVD two - Marline Finkelstein and this is- you're talking about your grandmothers, on your mother's side maiden name was- MF: Goldstein. SC: Goldstein, yes. MF: This is the photograph. Is there a date? AF: I don't see one. GAIL EISENBERG: Do you want to just do it afterwards? SC: Yeah we can just do it afterwards. Oh that's gorgeous. Oh my gosh. So that's your great gran- MF: These are my great grandfolk, parents. And they're my father's grandparents. SC: Probably from about the 1870's or 80's? MF: I would think so. And she was the one that was Klineman and he was Levinstien and he took her family name. SC: Yeah, wow. That's so nice. MF: A nice story. SC: That's a great picture too. So you were in college, you went to college. MF: I did. SC: And after college, or during college, can you go from that point on? MF: Sure, sure. By the way, I knew I wanted to be a psychologist, therapist, counselor, whatever, when I was about 6 years old. I didn't even know the name for it but I was sort of fascinated by that. And when I went to college, and I said I wanted to major in psychology, my mother was very disapproving. And she certainly didn't want me to be a social worker because, you know, what kind of job is that? My mother considered herself a business woman. I should have mentioned this. But my mother worked. Which was unusual in those days, she worked because she wasn't satisfied that my father was making enough money. But she was very proud about the fact that she could work, and she never even graduated high school, I don't believe. And she was a bookkeeper. And she was a very good bookkeeper, and she had worked in the garment industry for a while. As a bookkeeper with my uncle Mike, Judith's husband, who was the controller in the same office where my mother was a bookkeeper. SC: Were they manufacturers? Do you know? MF: Yes, they were manufacturers. They were making... what were they making? It wasn't they might have been making... they were making clothes of some kind... because when my mother went back to work, she felt very guilty, and she came home at the end of the first week, or when she got paid, with a little outfit for me. And I was probably in third grade, I think. And she told me, and showed me, look what I can buy for you now that ... you know I'm working. Anyway, so my mother was interested in my . . . she thought I should at least be a teacher because if you're a teacher you can always get a job and god forbid you have to work, and so on. So I made a deal that I would still major in psychology, but I would minor in elementary education. And so I had a double major, minor or whatever. And I do have somewhere in New York, a teaching degree and when we were first married I actually taught nursery school here in Allentown. SC: What nursery school? MF: At the JCC. SC: At the JCC, okay. MF: Of course. SC: Yes, of course. MF: So I should back up, Hunter College meant commuting. And it was an all-girls school, but you know, I dated a lot and those were the days that we dated. In the meantime, my Uncle Mike, who had worked in the garment industry, he had a longing to own his own business, he wanted like a women's clothing store, dress shop, or whatever. And he bought a place called Dobnoffs, in downtown Allentown. And so they left New York, Aunt Judith and Uncle Mike, and moved to Allentown in 1960? About that. AF: Right around there. MF: Yeah, I graduated high school in '59 I guess, and I started college in '59 so it was '61. My aunt lived on Livingston Street, my aunt and uncle. And, she had a next door neighbor named Ruth Bloom, who saw my picture in my aunt's house and said she'd be nice for Mina's son. So Mina's son was in the air force in Oklahoma, at the time. And I got a call from my aunt, in June, I had just finished my final exams, and I wanted to go party, and she told my mother I had to come out, that she had a nice boy for me to meet. And I said I have a date Friday night, Saturday night, I'm you know . . . And my mother said, ah, you know what you have here, you don't know what you have there, go. So I took a bus out to Allentown, and my uncle picked me up at the bus stop, and came to their house. I wanted to go party that night. I was supposed to meet him Saturday night, but they announced we were going to a synagogue that night. Which was the last thing in the world I wanted to do. But I didn't have much choice, so we walked into the synagogue, and I picked a row, and I went in. and - I don't know if you know the word b'sherkt. Meant to be. I sat down next to him. So . . . SC: Ha-ha. MF: So we looked at each other, and I saw my aunt lean forward, and my soon to be mother-in-law lean forward, and they introduced us, and we started talking. We still joke about the fact that when the service started, and we stood up Arnan went, "Where'd she go? Ha-ha. But we met that night. SC: So the stars were all out, and there were fireworks. Ha-ha. GE: All in alignment. MF: All in the right alignment. Ha-ha. And so we drove around in his fancy car that night, and we hung out the next day, and so on. And when I went back to- AF: I didn't have a fancy car back then. MF: Well, was that your father's car? AF: Yeah. MF: It was a- it was a very pretty car. Anyway when I came home, my mother said, So? And I said, well if I don't marry him, I'm going to marry somebody just like him. So I guess I kind of knew. And I went to camp, he went back to the air force. Ha-ha. So I was very young, I was just, was I still seventeen? Or I was eighteen? AF: Sixteen- oh no, you were eighteen. MF: I was eighteen. AF: Eighteen and a half. MF: Oh, okay. So, we corresponded all summer, I was a counselor at camp, and he came home for the Jewish holidays, and I saw him. And he was discharged in November. AF: Actually in August, but I stayed on in school. MF: Okay. And- SC: What was the name of the camp? MF: Oh, it was the New Jersey Y Camps. Which was kind of akin to Pinemere here. But it was in Milford, Pennsylvania, and I had gone there for years. Actually, just a quick step back, my parents didn't have a lot of money, but my Uncle Ukie, that was my father's second younger brother. SC: Israel. MF: Right. He married very late, he never had children, and there was a period of time he lived with us, and he adored me. He was- I- you know the sun rose and set with me. And he was a salesman in the garment industry for a company called Kirkland Hall Suits. I think I still have a couple of his suits hanging in the closet because I can't bear to get rid of them. But he had the wherewithal to send me to camp. So I started going to camp at around the age of six. Which was a lifesaver for me, and helped me to grow and be more independent, and so on. So I went to New Jersey Y camps. First I went to a camp in Connecticut, for a few years, and my cousins went with me. And I started the New Jersey Y camps. I think I was about nine. And that was because my father had a fraternity brother from college, who was on, lived in Passaic, New Jersey, and he was on the Board of Directors, and he could get me into the camp. Because you were supposed to live in New Jersey. So I-- and his children were friends of mine--they were my age, I thought of them as cousins, and so on. So, even though I was young. I had a lot of people I knew already at camp. So I- and every summer I looked forward to. I still have one camp friend left. We email each other now. So that was kind of a good story. Anyway, help me, where did we leave off? SC: Okay so the two of you met, and you graduated from college then did you work between the time you graduated, and then you got married? MF: Um, no, what I did other than working camp that summer was the following summer, I went to summer-school. I took fifteen credits in summer school, so we could get married sooner, rather than waiting until the next June. So I- between NYU and Hunter college, I was able to get all my credits in, and I graduated in January of 63' and 1963, and so I was... SC: Twenty? MF: I wasn't even twenty yet. SC: Nineteen? MF: I was turning twenty, but I was still nineteen. And I still laugh about the fact that when we picked our wedding date that I said, well I need a month just to get my- you know. So I picked the end of February for us to get married, and my mother said, " February, It'll snow." And I said, "No! It won't snow." It snowed. But- GE: February 63' is when you got married. MF: Yes February 24, 1963. So yeah there was no time to work then. I think I might have- I remember a little job working at a JCC with a group of girls, you know, briefly. But that was- it might have been in that period of time. And then I came out to Allentown as a new bride. And I was Mina Finkelstein's Daughter in law. Everybody knew my mother in law because she was this beautiful woman who really had a spell on the community. And she was president of the sisterhood, and she'd been president of Hadassah and was - and I was very open to her. She had great style, and she taught me lots of things and so I she made me a life member of Hadassah right away and the sisterhood, and I got involved in a lot of the organizations. But I also had a teaching degree, so- I mean you can't do much with a bachelors in psychology, and I thought about graduate school, but I wasn't clear yet where I wanted to go, or what I wanted. So my aunt Judith arranged for me to meet Judy Freeman, who ran the nursery school at the JCC. And Judy was thrilled and she hired me right away, and so I worked for two years at the JCC, Miss Marlene. And I still have some of my earliest students, my three and four year olds, still call me Miss Marlene when they see me today, which is hysterical. And then I was pregnant with our first child, Sharon, who was born in 65' and then the sixties were having children. Our second was born, Ilana, in 68' and Abbey was born in 71' and so I certainly . . . The work I did in those years was really more organizational. I used to say I am a professional organizational person, or professional Jewish volunteer. Yeah, I was involved in all the Boards and I was program vice president of Hadassah and membership vice president and on the Sisterhood Board. And on the Federation Board. Maxine and I met the first year as a new bride here. I was very lonely, and everyone said to me. Wait, Maxine Kivert is going to come back to town. When you meet her, you and Maxine are going to be great friends. And, Maxine knew about me because before Arnan met me, he had dated another girl in town who Maxine was friendly with, so Maxine knew about me, and I knew about her. And we met I think at an-- I remember at an ORT-- yeah, I was involved with the ORT also... event. And we knew each other. I mean we just immediately knew each other. And we became very fast friends. Both our husbands were in the textile business, so that was... And she went on to have three daughters, and we had three daughters ha-ha. So we had a lot of connections. And the first thing that Maxine and I did together was we started a Hadassah Study Group. There was a Woman's Study Group that my mother in law belonged to. And the older women belonged to. But we had children, and we were home during the day, it was harder to get babysitters. So we started an evening study group. That was just fabulous. And the first year we asked the rabbis to come and talk, and at the end of that we said, you know we're all college graduates, we can do a better job than they did. They sort of were winging it, so we would pick a topic. Hadassah would give us some ideas, and we would give out the assignments. And every other Monday night I guess for- it was just fabulous. Even Arnan would tell me he was jealous because we were learning so much. And it was like doing a paper, and you were the presenter, and it was wonderful. It went on for many years. It drew in a lot of young Jewish women that were coming to town because they would hear about our study group, and it was a great thing. And then Maxine and I went on to do a few other things together. We started a speaker's bureau, and we just felt that all these Jewish organizations were having board meetings, having meetings, and so on, and they never had any real Jewish content, so we put together a group of people who would write. We limited it, we had five minute talks. Just a little capsule thing, that they would go in at the beginning of a board meeting, and give a little talk on something of Jewish content and interest, and it was kind of a fun thing. And from that, Les Gottlieb was the director of the Federation at that time, and he came to us and asked if we might be interested in starting a newspaper for the Jewish community. And we already had our writers from our speaker's bureau staff so we did it. We started Hakol. And it was a very, very exciting time for us. GE: And this was about what year? MF: Hakol I think we started in 1975? 76'? Something like that. Somewhere I have the original. But it was in that time period because when we moved... AF: How many years did you - MF: Do Hakol? About four. AF: Then you probably started earlier because I was president of the Federation when you came asking for a... MF: Yeah, after about four years, I- he was president, I said, I can't keep doing this on a volunteer basis. I went to Federation and-- Maxine had dropped out, she said she was done. She would help me with some editing stuff. But it was a big job, it really was. And I went to the Federation and I said, this is really a big job, and I asked them to pay me 4,000 dollars, and they said no they couldn't do that. If they started paying for all these jobs, it wouldn't be good for the Federation. So that ended my career. SC: Did it continue on a volunteer basis? MF: For another year or so. SC: Are they archived anywhere? MF: Yeah I think they are, probably at the Center, or the Federation office. AF: You didn't keep any did you? MF: Of course I did. They're downstairs somewhere. It was a very exciting time for us. But I knew I needed to move on, and I started thinking about. .. I was also still involved in study groups and I remember giving a paper. There were two in a row, one was on interestingly, the growing threat of radical Islam, and um, I remember I learned all about the Shiites, and the Sunni's and so on. And one was on Theodore Herzl. And I remember coming home and Arnan said, how did it go, and I said, it was an A paper. It's time for me to go back to school, and you know, do it for myself. So I knew I wanted psychology. I started looking around for a program, and, by the way, I was also on the board of Jewish Family Service. And, Amy Miller Cohen, who was a psychologist in Bethlehem, I had given the paper at her house. And I was talking with her about going back to school and getting a masters, and she said to me, "Marlene, go get an MSW." and I said, "Really?" And she said, "It'll take you less time, you're not a little kid anymore," I was about 37, 38, and she said, "and you'll do what you want to do. '' So Marywood had a program at DeSales. And so I went. It took me three years because it was a part time program, but I got my MSW, and I had interned at Quakertown Hospital in the Psychiatric unit as part of the program, and I stayed on there, and worked in patient psyche for another ten years. And it was with a group called the Alliance for Creative Development. We were psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers-- creative therapists. It was a wonderful program, it was before managed care and all that stuff. And where we really could work with patients as a team and see results. It was a very very exciting time. And the alliance for creative development had the hospital unit, and we had in patient offices as well so I started - AF: Outpatient. MF: Outpatient offices I mean, so I started a private practice with them also... and, twenty five years later, I retired. I left the hospital, after eight years at Quakertown hospital there, we moved to a hospital in Philadelphia, in Fort Washington. It was Northwestern Institute. After two years of doing the turnpike it was enough. So I just did the private practice from then on. And in between there, too, Arnan built the house and we moved here and... oh I was president of Jewish Family Service while I was in graduate school getting my MSW. SC: So you've talked about your community involvement, you've talked about your career, do you have any other questions about the business? GE: Yeah no I think it did- did you have, what relationship or what connections did you have to the family business, if any? MF: Well, we tried for about two weeks for me to come keep some books for you. That didn't work. Ha-ha AM: She was our model. Every so often we would have an experimental- MF: Oh this is a very funny story. AF: Yeah, MF: I had, I've always had a dressmaker because of my size, whatever I would always buy always had to be fixed. So Arnan had this new experimental fabric that they were making. AF: Well we were just playing with it. MF: Yeah, so I took it to my dressmaker, this is before we were married, and she made me a bathing suit out of it for our honeymoon. And it was very pretty with an orange scoop neck, and it had some of the knit fabric in a print that tied, went around the waist or the hip, anyway, I couldn't wait to use it for our honeymoon. Fortunately we went to Caneel Bay, and we had this little cottage on a very private beach, because I went into the water with this thing, and the weight of the water immediately pulled it right down. SC: Ha-ha. MF: So I came out of the water with it way down. GE: Fine for a honeymoon! MF: That's right. GE: Fine for a private beach. MF: Right! Ha-ha we got a good laugh out of that. But otherwise, I um, always had an interest. I never sewed, I'm not terribly domestic, Arnan's much more domestic than I am. But he would bring home fabrics, I did have um, I had a dress or a bathing suit made for Sharon, but I took it to a dressmaker, out of the fabric Arnan had shown you with Sharon Alyse's birthday on it. GE: But generally you were not- you were just his wife. MF: I was not- GE: Directly involved. MF: I was not directly involved. I had a pretty wonderful and loving relationship with my in-laws, especially with my mother-in-law. My father-in-law was a quiet man, he didn't talk very much. And most of the time he wanted to talk to Arnan about business things. But he would come over to see the grandchildren, I still joke about - he would look, he would see they were okay, and then he would say, "Okay Mina Finkelstein, it's time to go home!" And she would say, "George! We just got here!" GE: Where did they live? MF: They lived on Livingston and twenty . . . and Ott. On the corner of Livingston and Ott. And our prior home was on 26th and Highland. So we were always in close proximity. Yes. GE: I think that's good. SC: Yes oh and I have a couple of my creative questions. What do you value most in life? MF: Well, probably my family, first and foremost, and the connections and the relationships. I would have to make that you know... SC: Yes. And what has made you feel the most creative or artistic in the broadest sense, or completed in life. MF: Well, I think I have a great sense of accomplishment about the newspaper, not the fact that I helped to start it, and it's still an ongoing institution, I think feels very wonderful. But I think I feel that way about a few other things that we started in life. The Am Haskalah was, Arnan and I were very involved in getting that off the ground. As were Maxine and her first husband, Arnold. So starting some institutions that are still going has been a very creative process. And being a therapist. I love being a therapist. I do miss it. And I saw a friend of mine yesterday, we had worked together in-patient, and became therapists together, and so on and she's still working. And we were talking about that, and how what happens now is the tendency for me to use it with family and friends. Ha-ha thatskill, and you know, trying to decide when I should keep my mouth shut, and when I can just be a friend and not say anything more. And even when they ask me for advice, what do they really want? But the fact that I touched a lot of lives, I think, means a great deal to me. SC: That's beautiful. And this is going to end momentarily. MF: Okay. SC: That's perfect. GE: Quick question, with the Hakol, so you started, you were there for about four years, then it went on for another year, I know of it today, tell me did it lapse? MF: No it didn't lapse, it- GE: So it continued the whole- MF: But it wasn't until I'm trying to remember, did Ned Shulman do it? Maggie Levine was still here. AF: No. GE: I know Sharon Bernstein I think I think at one point maybe- MF: Yeah that was a while- AF: Somebody took it over after you know- MF: Whoever did it until they finally- AF: But then it became professional. MF: They finally realized they had to have someone to do this, but it has grown, and when um... not the current one... GE: Carolyn, Carolyn Katwan. MF: When Carolyn- I met her. And I complimented her genuinely, because I thought she had grown it and taken it to a new place, that was our vision. Part of our vision when we started it was to see it become a Lehigh Valley - and to bring the three communities - because they were very separate. And Maxine and I used to lament that. You know it didn't make sense that my New York sechel [Yiddish for common sense], and we would be better in larger numbers, and to pull it together. And they've really gone on to do that now, and the vision for it - we were too small, and inexperienced to make it an advertising newspaper, as well. But I'm happy to see the ads in it. GE: And that's quite recent. For a long time it was still- MF: Well it was just the past few years. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:00:55
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Marlene Finkelstein, June 23, 2014
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Marlene Finkelstein talks about growing up in New York City, attending Hunter College, and then coming to Allentown at the suggestion of her aunt and uncle to meet a nice young man, Arnan Finkelstein. After Marlene married Arnan and moved to Allentown she started a family and got immersed in the Jewish community. Marlene and her dear friend Maxine Tanenbaum (now Kline) started an evening Hadassah study session and later the Hakol (monthly Jewish newspaper published by the Jewish Federation). Marlene returned to school part-time to earn an MSW (Masters of Social Work). She then worked in the field of psychology/social work for more than twenty-five years. .
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LVTNT-23
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2014-06-23
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Title
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
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Arnan Finkelstein
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-18.xml
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5.4 May 15, 2014 Arnan Finkelstein, May 15, 2014 LVTNT-18 1:33:05 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Arnan Finkelstein Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 FinkelsteinArnan_20140515 1.0:|19(7)|36(10)|55(4)|78(12)|95(13)|112(14)|133(14)|156(3)|181(3)|206(5)|227(3)|248(7)|273(11)|288(14)|313(7)|334(15)|355(20)|372(6)|387(15)|408(4)|425(12)|448(9)|461(17)|480(13)|503(5)|526(11)|545(4)|566(11)|587(12)|606(5)|625(6)|638(8)|661(3)|672(10)|691(3)|718(2)|739(4)|758(4)|777(11)|806(2)|827(2)|850(2)|883(7)|904(11)|933(5)|952(9)|981(2)|1004(2)|1023(8)|1046(11)|1061(10)|1086(7)|1109(10)|1130(7)|1147(3)|1160(17)|1185(10)|1208(5)|1237(7)|1266(9)|1285(9)|1310(2)|1331(7)|1348(12)|1371(2)|1396(17)|1413(8)|1432(2)|1447(4)|1468(9)|1487(14)|1512(10)|1531(11)|1550(8)|1571(7)|1590(7)|1619(7)|1644(6)|1657(12)|1678(4)|1701(17)|1718(14)|1739(10)|1762(9)|1777(11)|1802(8)|1825(15)|1844(13)|1865(8)|1884(12)|1901(7)|1914(16)|1929(14)|1930(2) 0 https://youtu.be/-46-hKYxyg8 YouTube video 0 Introduction—Arnan Finkelstein SC: I am going to ask you a little bit about your family first. If you could start with yourself and then we will go backwards. What is your full name? Where were you born? All your information from when you were young.
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 ; AF: Name is Arnan Finkelstein. I was born in April of 1937 in Tel Aviv under the British mandate. My father was an American citizen at the time, and we came to the states in October of 1941. 0 54 Arnan's Parents, George & ; Mina Finkelstein AF: My father lived in Allentown between the late twenties and early thirties and worked at his family’s textile mill in Allentown, the Arcadia Knitting Mills. During that period, the Arcadia Knitting Mills was a very successful knitting facility. It had an exclusive right in the United States to do something that was just invented called rayon. They had the exclusive right in women’s underwear fabrics. So during the depression, the Arcadia Knitting Mills was basically running around the clock and it was a very, very successful plant. My father did very, very well, from what he told me, he was making like a thousand dollars a month during the depression, which was a staggering amount of money. Something happened in ’33 between he and his uncles. There was some kind of a disagreement ; I never got a full answer on it. But he decided to retire in 1933. He decided then to go looking for a wife and went back to Poland where he knew of my mother. 0 267 1941: Emigrating from Tel Aviv to the United States AF: I remember a little bit about Tel Aviv. I was four years old when we left Tel Aviv. The reason we left, there were several. First of all, Europe was already at war. Germany was in, Rommel was in North Africa and was advancing toward Egypt, and the American Consul General in Jerusalem basically told my father that he could no longer protect him as an American citizen. Then there was an additional part from what my father told me, was that Congress, there was a law passed in 1941 that required all naturalized citizens to come back to the States by the end of ’41 or lose their American citizenship. I don’t have independent confirmation ; I’m only going by what my father or my parents told me. The Italians bombed Tel Aviv in early ’41 or late ’40. They were actually supposed to bomb the oil refineries in Haifa, but they couldn’t find them so they dropped a few bombs on Tel Aviv. I remember spending some nights in bomb shelters in the whole house my father built in Tel Aviv. And then we left Tel Aviv in the spring of ’41 and took a 70-day trip around Africa to come to the states. 0 432 The Garment and Needle-Trade Industry During WWII AF: During the Second World War, he used his contacts – well, a couple of things. All of the big manufacturers were involved in the war effort. So there was nobody doing very much of anything for the domestic market. He used some of his previous contacts from the Arcadia days to be able to buy fabric. He had a little sewing plant in New Brunswick, which manufactured women’s undergarments. He had some of the big New York stores as buyers. I think Bloomingdales and Saks and some of the others because they could not get it anywhere else. That business essentially folded at the end of World War Two, when the traditional manufacturers came back on stream. 
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 ; SC: So silk was used for parachutes?
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 ; AF: Yeah and that was obviously a rare commodity. Rayon was the closest manmade equivalent. 0 588 Moving from Highland Park, NJ to Allentown, PA AF: My father had started a knitting mill in Highland Park I think around 1950. It was a struggle ; he did not succeed over the long run because he was just too far away from the dye houses. He was a contractor there, meaning he was given yarn, which he then knit into fabric. The fabric would be then sent to a dye house, which would dye the fabric and ship to locations depending on the owner of the fabric. So my father did what was called commission knitting, and he got 10-12 cents a pound, whatever the number was. But, because he was in Allentown, the dye houses would not pick up freight free in Allentown. He had to pay freight to ship the goods to Reading or to other places in Pennsylvania, which took all the profit out of the business, so eventually the business folded. So we moved to Allentown in 1954, right after I graduated high school. 0 703 Work Experiences and College Education at Lehigh University AF: Once I got working papers, which was around 1950, I actually went to work for my father in the mill in Highland Park during the summers and typically not during the school period. So I was in the knitting industry I guess since I was about 13 years old. And then, when we moved to Allentown I went to Lehigh, so that was a period of time that I was not actively involved in the plant. 
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 ; SC: What did you study at Lehigh?
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 ; AF: Engineering physics.
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 ; SC: Perfect.
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 ; AF: It was probably the worst four years of my life, but other than that it was fine. 0 902 The Armed Forces—Doing Failure Analysis for the U.S. Armed Forces AF: I went through ROTC at Lehigh, and I was commissioned a second lieutenant upon graduation. And then, that August I went into the Air Force at the Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma City. I spent three years in the Air Force doing essentially failure analysis. We would get pieces and parts of airplanes and engines and components and try to figure out why they failed. And then at the same time, the University of Oklahoma was just about, maybe 20 minutes away. So off hours, I was able to, I figured I had about 2/3 of a master’s degree in metallurgical engineering. 
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 ; SC: Did you find that the failure work that you did was helpful in business at all?
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 ; AF: Well, I think that even though I don’t have fond memories of the education part of Lehigh, I think that the scientific approach that I received was… I came from a very different perspective than anyone else in the business and I think it made a difference for our success. 0 1276 Family History AF: So this is the family story, as I understand it. My father’s mother was one of eighteen children. 
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 ; GE: Excuse me, What was her name? Your father’s name was George . . . 
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 ; AF: My father’s name was George and his mother’s name… I’ll have to take a pass. The last name was Povembrovsky. There were eighteen. Several of my father’s uncles came to the States around the beginning of the twentieth century. There was Isadore, there was Sam, and there was David. Those are the three that I know. Oh, and there was an Eli, as well. Some of the family went to Norway. As a matter of fact there was a Gibstein family that went to Norway. There was also part that stayed in Palestine. Yaakov Agam, the artist, was my father’s first cousin. His mother and my father’s mother were sisters. His name originally was Yaakov Gibstein. So that was part of that family. And so in probably the early ‘20s my father came to the States, around 1922. From what he told me, he left Poland, his mother smoked a turkey for him so that it would be preserved. He left Poland and started his trek across Europe until he got to, I believe Hamburg or Antwerp or something like that, for the trip to the States. 0 1792 George and Mina Finkelstein's Level of Observance SC: One thing that I wanted to just talk a little bit about was, were they religious? Were they very observant in Poland and in the United States?
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 ; AF: My father probably was more observant than my mother. I think my mother was in a more cosmopolitan space. I know that my father belonged to a shul in Allentown. Not Agudas Achim… the other one. I think, I'm not sure. There were two synagogues on Second Street and there was one right down the street. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Was that orthodox?
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 ; AF: They were both very orthodox. 0 1885 Family History (cont'd) AF: From the information that my mother gave me, my father is in the picture, obviously, his father, my father’s two sisters, brother and his aunt Hannah and apparently her husband, as well.
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 ; GE: About what year is that and where is that?
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 ; AF: This would have been at the farm in Poland and it’s probably – 
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 ; GE: Before 1922.
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 ; AF: No, it’s gonna be in the ‘30s. 
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 ; GE: Oh so he came back?
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 ; AF: Yes he came back. What he was able to do in addition, he was able to get his sister Shoshanna and his brother Shlomo out of Poland into Palestine in the ‘30s. He had to give them one thousand British pounds so that they could come into Palestine and demonstrate that they were not going to be a ward of the State or whatever. For some reason, I don’t know what happened with his other sisters, but they perished. In 1938, my parents took me, the prize one year old, to show off back in Poland. So, they tried to get my mother’s brother out of Poland but he said this was going to blow over. So he also perished. 0 2207 1922-33: George Finkelstein and the Arcadia Knitting Mills AF: [M]y father when he came to the states went right to work in the factory in Brooklyn. He got off the boat, he had twenty-five cents in his pocket, and he goes to work in the factory.
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 ; GE: This is around 1922?
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 ; AF: Yes this is around 1922. He worked his way up, first a mechanic, he learned how to take the machines apart and put them back together again. Eventually, because he was blood, he was family, they gave him more and more – he clearly, I think earned it – but his uncles gave him more and more responsibility, including, I think they actually set up a plant in Cherbourg, Canada, in which he was involved. Then there was the big move to Allentown in 1928-1929 ; they built the building at the south end of the Eighth Street bridge in Allentown, the Arcadia Knitting Mills. It was a multistory building ; most recently it was converted into the Bridgeview Apartments. That plant manufactured . . . in its heyday manufactured rayon fabrics for women’s undergarments. 0 2425 1941: End of the Arcadia Knitting Mills AF: [M]y father left in 1933 - they continued on but in 1941 the government condemned the building and essentially gave it to Mack Truck, which was next door, so that Mack Truck could expand, and they started making trucks and whatever for the war. So the Arcadia Knitting Mills essentially ended. 
 ; 
 ; GE: So the uncles ended at that point?
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 ; AF: The uncles ended the textile business.
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 ; GE: Interesting. What brought them from Brooklyn to –? 
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 ; AF: My understanding is that they liked the fact that there was a very steady highly competent workforce in Allentown with a good work ethic. 0 2596 The '40s: George Finkelstein's Manufacturing Business in NJ GE: [T]ell us a little about your father’s history. When he came back from Palestine to the U.S, just kind of gave us a little bit of that history with the business. I know he was in New Jersey.
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 ; AF: In New Jersey, he had a little sewing plant, cutting, he had access to some rayon fabric. He was able, because the traditional manufacturers could no longer supply the big department stores ; my father was able to sell to the big department stores in New York and Philadelphia . . . women’s undergarments that he manufactured in New Brunswick. 0 2750 1954: George Finkelstein Becomes a Contractor in Allentown, PA AF: So he decided in 1954 to move back to Allentown, bought into a partnership with Sam Boxer. I think Sam’s brother decided to get out. I think it was Lou Boxer, he bought Lou Boxer’s portion of the business. They spent a year or two together and they decided to split. My father went on his own in, I think, probably 1956.
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 ; GE: And you came in at what time, what year?
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 ; AF: We moved to Allentown in 1954.
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 ; GE: You joined your father what year?
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 ; AF: After the Air Force in 1961 0 2985 1961: Arnan Finkelstein Joins the Family Business GE: So now why don’t you tell us about once you entered the business with your father?
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 ; AF: Well I had worked for him on and off from 1950 through high school and in college a little bit, but I joined my father in 1961. As I said, it was right at the beginning of the synthetic boom of stretch nylon. I think my father was one of the first people to try to knit stretch nylon. Stretch nylon was initially a product that was developed by a Swiss company called Helenka [?]. They had taken raw fibers of nylon, and had developed a process where they would send it through a heated tube and it would crimp the nylon so that essentially a foot of raw nylon going in may have been 3 inches going out. But, it was crimped and had stretch. It was used in leotards in the stocking industry. The original nylon stockings were made out of that type of fabric. My father had a friend who gave him twenty spools of yarn with just a little bit of yarn on it to try and run it on an interlock-knitting machine. He was able to do that and came out with a very nice fabric that was stretched in two ways. And then I’m sure other people were experimenting at the same time. Then it just skyrocketed from there. 0 3161 Cotton Versus Synthetics AF: All of a sudden, almost overnight, synthetics. The cotton is out. Knitting cotton was a very - it was a dirty process. What happened is, as you were knitting the cotton, some of the staple would come off as fuzz and there was fuzz all over the place. As a matter of fact, my father was allergic to it. He ended up taking some of the fuzz and they made a serum and injected him with it so he could actually tolerate it and be in the factory. But there was stuff hanging all over the place. As soon as synthetics came in it was clean, it was almost an unbelievable transformation. 
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 ; GE: What is interesting is you’re saying why this synthetic is so nice is the production got much better. How about at the end use? Isn’t it also a better product for the consumer?
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 ; AF: Well it was a very top-notch product at the time. When it compared to cotton, it was probably less expensive than cotton, but it performed, it washed, it kept its shape after many washes. It was an ideal fabric for children. 0 3448 The '60-70s: Evolution in Name, Products, and Business Practices GE: During what time frame would you say this lasted? From 1961 until when?
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 ; AF: ‘61 until it lasted into the early ‘70s. 
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 ; GE: So for a good ten years.
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 ; AF: We sold our business in 1968. In 1967, we built a dye house. We had the knitting mill on South Albert Street, in Allentown. And then my father bought…
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 ; GE: What was the name of your knitting mill?
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 ; AF: It started out as Allentown Knitting Mill. There was Lehigh Weaving Company because the building he bought had the name associated with it. Eventually Lehigh Knitting Mills became available, and someone else had the name, but gave it up. So we had those names. Then we had Syntex Dyeing and Finishing. My father purchased an old Sears warehouse on Union Boulevard and we converted that into a dye house. 0 3674 1968: George Finkelstein's Retirement and the Emergence of Unions GE: So then you sold it in ’68, and at that point, your family was then out of…
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 ; AF: Well, my father retired at that point, and I stayed on as president of the new manufacturing organization. My father had already expanded ; we had a knitting mill in Rocky Mountain, North Carolina. So we had the knitting mill in Allentown, the knitting mill in Rocky Mountain, North Carolina, and the dye house in Allentown. When we sold to Duplan, Duplan had purchased a company out in California that had a knitting mill. So I became responsible for that plant as well.
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 ; GE: What drove you to North Carolina?
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 ; AF: Help. Labor. 
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 ; GE: What was the difficulty with the labor here? Was it not as plentiful?
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 ; AF: I think there was the competition for knitters. The Fairtex was union. In order to compete, we had to keep up with union style wages. 0 3857 Employee Numbers, Wages, & ; Contracts GE: At this point, the family also had a plant down in North Carolina. In terms of employees, you said you had about 40?
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 ; AF: All together, at peak, I had about 400 people working for me.
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 ; GE: Is that already once you were bought out or before?
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 ; AF: Afterwards. 
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 ; GE: After you were bought out. 
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 ; AF: We expanded some after we were bought. We expanded the dye house and we expanded the knitting mill, so it was at peak. Probably before we sold it must have been somewhere in the 200-250. 0 4107 The '60s: Attempts at Merging the Manufacturing, Sales, & ; Retail Industries—"Stretch Knit" GE: My father had, right around the time that I joined, he had a friend in the textile industry that was a high power salesman in New York. Clarence Ross had the sales agency, my father had the manufacturing, and the two of them formed a 50-50 partnership to sell stretch nylon to the trade. That company was called Stretch Knit. 
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 ; GE: Stretch Knit is the one who is making it?
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 ; AF: Stretch Knit was the product that the sales agency was selling to the trade. It was the position of a middleman but it was a way of getting two separate companies owning a third to be able to service the industry. 
 ; 
 ; GE: You say by trade you mean the retailers?
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 ; AF: The manufacturers. 0 4266 1968: Selling to Duplan AF: I remember after meeting in New York I came back to my father and said we are never going to make a deal. That’s when we sold the business. So we had thought about going the private route.
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 ; GE: And then with Duplan your father retired?
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 ; AF: My father retired.
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 ; GE: You became the CEO it sounds like.
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 ; AF: The head of manufacturing. Eventually, a year or so later, Duplan bought the sales agency. So even though the sales agency continued to sell our product now owned by Duplan, there was some tension but eventually it worked out and was back under one roof. 
 ; 
 ; GE: And how long did you stay as…?
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 ; AF: I had a five-year contract with Duplan that I guess after 3 and a half years, we agreed to disagree. 0 4397 The '70s: Decline of the Textile and Needle-Trade Industry AF: I stepped out in May of 1972. And then the business, and I don’t think there is a cause or a relationship, but the overall business started not long thereafter to decline. It declined in my view because not only were people like Duplan buying knitters, but the big weaving companies were buying knitting mills as well. Weavers had the Cohen mills, the Burlington’s, people that were making sheets and towels and shirt fabrics and stuff like that. They had a mindset of you set up a loom and three years later you change it. So they were at very long run productions, very low margins. Knitting mills were very versatile. We had a hundred knitting machines in Allentown, within a few days ; I could pretty much change every one of them to something else. Because of its versatility and because of its smallness, there was a very high margin product as well. I think that weaver became very jealous of the high profit margins of the knitting mills. But when they bought the knitting mills, they started to impose their mindset. So before polyester became a dirty word, it was a very high performing product. 0 4732 1978-81: Working for Stretchini's Dyeing Company AF: In 1978, one of the people I knew from Stretchini, they approached me to help a company that he was involved with to run the dye house. So they bought the dye house in Allentown, our old dye house.
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 ; GE: Stretchini.
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 ; AF: Not Stretchini. It was a company out of Pottsville that bought the plant in Allentown and I helped run that. I think I joined them in ’78.
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 ; GE: And how long did you do that?
 ; 
 ; AF: I think it was around ’78 to ’81. And again I guess I wasn’t cut out to be in the corporate world. I basically was the head of the plant in Allentown, but there was a lot of interference from people that really didn’t know what they were talking about. 0 4868 Evolution of the Jewish Community—Impact of the Textile and Needle-Trade Industry AF: Well I met a few Jewish kids the summer that I moved to Allentown. It was softball in the summer, maybe a little basketball during the winter months. But, as far as my involvement, my parents belonged to Beth El and my mother and father were regular goers. We would go Friday night quite often. My mother became president of the sisterhood. In fact, Marlene and I met at Beth El.
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 ; GE: So Marlene grew up in this area?
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 ; AF: No. She had an aunt that moved here - whose husband owned Dobnoff’s - the women’s dress store on Hamilton Street. The aunt lived next door to a friend of my mother’s who saw her picture and her next-door neighbor made the Shiddach, the connection. So we met, I was in the Air Force, I was home on leave and Marlene finished finals. 0 5158 Reasons for Jewish Involvement in the Textile and Needle-Trade Industry GE: How do you think your family, especially your uncles, because they were really the first, how do you think they got involved in the needle trade industry? Why in the needle trade industry? 
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 ; AF: I don’t know.
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 ; GE: Why do you think that there definitely was a Jewish propensity in the needle trade industry compared to some other industries? Any thoughts?
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 ; AF: I think it is typical. There is a vacuum that somebody doesn’t want to fill and a vacuum that somebody does want to fill. 0 5249 Arnan's Creative Inspirations and Values SC: So now my first question is what has made you feel the most creative or the most satisfied in your life or maybe that has given you a sense of artistry in your life in the broadest sense?
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 ; AF: I think I had a good time fooling around with the designs of the knitting machines, or the fabric rather. We’d come up with different combinations of yarn and different colors to see if we could make something interesting. That was a fun time. In addition to nylon, there were two types of polyester we were using. One you could not dye at all and the other one could be dyed, so you could end up getting three colors. So that was a fun thing to play around with and for me personally, I think photography has become a place where I get my creative jollies taken care of. 0 5391 Arnan and Marlene's Involvement in the Jewish and Allentown Communities AF: We were very active in Beth El. Marlene was on sisterhood and I was executive vice president. I had been asked to become president of Beth El. But we got involved, we were in I guess the epicenter of the politics that occurred about 35 years ago. It had to do with our daughter’s bat-mitzvah. We had a situation, I mean she was a day school alum ; she went to Camp Ramah, very competent in Hebrew and the prayers and whatever. We wanted her bat-mitzvah where she could maximize her involvement, and Beth El at the time looked to minimize the involvement of the kids. So we kind of parted ways and we were instrumental in starting Am Haskalah at the time. During that period of time we were very actively involved. I was at the Jewish committee, one time I was on four boards. I was president of the Federation for a while ; ’78-’80 I think. I was involved with the day school, with the center, with Beth El. 0 MovingImage Arnan Finkelstein talks about being born in Tel Aviv, Palestine (this is prior to the establishment of the State of Israel) and spending his young childhood there. In the early 1940s, during World War II, the Finkelstein family returned to the U.S. When they returned to the U.S., Arnan’s father manufactured women’s undergarments during the war. After the war, Arnan’s father returned to owning a knitting mill, which he did prior to living in Tel Aviv. Arnan entered the family business in 1961. At this time synthetic fabrics were being developed and the Finkelsteins were active in this. After Arnan’s father sold the business in the late 1960s, Arnan stayed involved in different textile enterprises until 1981. Interview with Arnan Finkelstein, May 15, 2014 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: I am going to ask you a little bit about your family first. If you could start with yourself and then we will go backwards. What is your full name? Where were you born? All your information from when you were young. ARNAN FINKELSTEIN: Name is Arnan Finkelstein. I was born in April of 1937 in Tel Aviv under the British mandate. My father was an American citizen at the time, and we came to the states in October of 1941. SC: Why were you in Tel Aviv at that point? AF: It starts with my parents' decision. My father lived in Allentown between the late twenties and early thirties and worked at his family's textile mill in Allentown, the Arcadia Knitting Mills. During that period, the Arcadia Knitting Mills was a very successful knitting facility. It had an exclusive right in the United States to do something that was just invented called rayon. They had the exclusive right in women's underwear fabrics. So during the depression, the Arcadia Knitting Mills was basically running around the clock and it was a very, very successful plant. My father did very, very well, from what he told me, he was making like a thousand dollars a month during the depression, which was a staggering amount of money. Something happened in '33 between he and his uncles. There was some kind of a disagreement ; I never got a full answer on it. But he decided to retire in 1933. He decided then to go looking for a wife and went back to Poland where he knew of my mother. There was about a six-year difference in age. He knew of her and started courting her. I think she turned him down once or twice and eventually did accept his proposal. He was a U.S. citizen by that time so as a result of that, he gave her the choice of either moving to the States or moving to Palestine, where he had been on several occasions in an attempt to make arrangements for his grandmother's burial in Jerusalem. So my mother apparently chose Palestine and Tel Aviv, in the early-mid thirties was a brand new city. It was roughly thirty years old. It was gleaming white. It was designed architecturally there was the Bauhaus and a lot of then-contemporary design. In fact, I think Tel Aviv is on the UN registry of architecture, mainly because of the Bauhaus influence. It was a very, very good life. GAIL EISNEBERG: What were the names of your mother and father? AF: My father was George Finkelstein and my mother was Mina, M-I-N-A, her maiden name was Zupnitsky. She was from Augustow, Poland. SC: Could you spell that? AF: I'll try. A-U-G-U-S-T-O-V. [official spelling is with a "w" at the end, not "v"] SC: Oh, I meant your mother's name. AF: Well, there is how I spell it and I see the correspondence how she spells it. Z-U-P-N-I-T-S-K-Y would be the way it would be transliterated into English. In Polish there were C's and J's and all sorts of other things in there. SC: Can you can talk a little bit about when you were a child, as far back as you know. And then we'll place you back in the family in the business. AF: I remember a little bit about Tel Aviv. I was four years old when we left Tel Aviv. The reason we left, there were several. First of all, Europe was already at war. Germany was in, Rommel was in North Africa and was advancing toward Egypt, and the American Consul General in Jerusalem basically told my father that he could no longer protect him as an American citizen. Then there was an additional part from what my father told me, was that Congress, there was a law passed in 1941 that required all naturalized citizens to come back to the States by the end of '41 or lose their American citizenship. I don't have independent confirmation ; I'm only going by what my father or my parents told me. The Italians bombed Tel Aviv in early '41 or late '40. They were actually supposed to bomb the oil refineries in Haifa, but they couldn't find them so they dropped a few bombs on Tel Aviv. I remember spending some nights in bomb shelters in the whole house my father built in Tel Aviv. And then we left Tel Aviv in the spring of '41 and took a 70-day trip around Africa to come to the states. SC: That was the safest way? AF: That was the only way. The Mediterranean was at war, the British and the Germans and Italians were, you know, it was an active warzone. Even as we crossed the South Atlantic, in probably the fall of 1941, I have recollection of spending nights in the lifeboats because they were afraid that they would be torpedoed or attacked by German raiders at any time. SC: Wow. So you arrived in the United States, and where did you grow up? AR: I grew up primarily, by 1942, we were living in New Brunswick, New Jersey. And then, in '48 we moved to Highland Park, New Jersey, which was right across the river from New Brunswick. So through high school I was in Highland Park. SC: Was your dad involved, when you were a child, in any of the garment or knitting industry? AR: During the Second World War, he used his contacts -- well, a couple of things. All of the big manufacturers were involved in the war effort. So there was nobody doing very much of anything for the domestic market. He used some of his previous contacts from the Arcadia days to be able to buy fabric. He had a little sewing plant in New Brunswick, which manufactured women's undergarments. He had some of the big New York stores as buyers. I think Bloomingdales and Saks and some of the others because they could not get it anywhere else. That business essentially folded at the end of World War Two, when the traditional manufacturers came back on stream. SC: So silk was used for parachutes? AF: Yeah and that was obviously a rare commodity. Rayon was the closest manmade equivalent. GE: Did they have a patent on rayon? AF: That patent was with a company in England, called Clourtaulds, which was the company that held the rayon. Arcadia Knitting Mills had the exclusive right in the U.S. in women's undergarments, for use in women's undergarments. SC: This is a little off topic, but did you hear that the success in nylon and rayon really pushed out the silk mills in Allentown, little by little? AF: Nylon doesn't come in until much later. I understand that rayon had a significant role in that, yes. SC: Yes, that was the cutting edge. Your uncles were really smart. AF: Yes, they were really active, they had 1200 knitting machines in Allentown running around the clock, manufacturing the fabric. My father, from what he said, the plant was originally in Brooklyn, and it was moved to Allentown in 1929. Apparently, he was responsible for building the building in South 8th Street and then he was the production manager during that period of time. SC: Before he decided to leave? AF: Before he decided to leave, yes. SC: So you went to school in New Jersey? AF: I went through high school in Highland Park. SC: When did you come to Allentown? AF: My father had started a knitting mill in Highland Park I think around 1950. It was a struggle ; he did not succeed over the long run because he was just too far away from the dye houses. He was a contractor there, meaning he was given yarn, which he then knit into fabric. The fabric would be then sent to a dye house, which would dye the fabric and ship to locations depending on the owner of the fabric. So my father did what was called commission knitting, and he got 10-12 cents a pound, whatever the number was. But, because he was in Allentown, the dye houses would not pick up freight free in Allentown. He had to pay freight to ship the goods to Reading or to other places in Pennsylvania, which took all the profit out of the business, so eventually the business folded. So we moved to Allentown in 1954, right after I graduated high school, and my father bought into a partnership with Sam Boxer, almost an identical knitting mill that he had in Highland Park, but it was located in Allentown and meant that the dye houses in Reading made a daily run to pick up the fabric and so there was no additional cost. SC: Is that the B-O-X-E-R? AF: B-O-X-E-R. SC: If you could talk a little bit about where you worked your entire life, from a paperboy or whatever, all the way through to your business. AF: Once I got working papers, which was around 1950, I actually went to work for my father in the mill in Highland Park during the summers and typically not during the school period. So I was in the knitting industry I guess since I was about 13 years old. And then, when we moved to Allentown I went to Lehigh, so that was a period of time that I was not actively involved in the plant. SC: What did you study at Lehigh? AF: Engineering physics. SC: Perfect. AF: It was probably the worst four years of my life, but other than that it was fine. SC: Was that because of Lehigh being-- Lehigh? AF: Well, first of all, my parents when they moved to Allentown were basically busted. The only money they had was from selling the house that they had in Highland Park, which went into buying the partnership. I think it was like $7,000 or something like that. I remember that previous Passover, my parents had to borrow money for that. It was a very difficult period of time in the very beginning. So Lehigh-- I commuted. When I was in high school, I had applied to Rutgers because we lived in Highland Park and money was tight so I was going to be commuting. And then we moved to Allentown and that summer I was studying for the SATs in order to be able to get into Lehigh, and we lived in the Tremont Apartments. My parents, my sister and I were in a two-bedroom apartment. Until 1957 we were in that apartment and it was a tough school environment because of Lehigh. Even more so than now, there was no grade inflation. Of my freshman class, barely over half graduated on time. I was lucky enough to be in that part that graduated on time. It was a grind, 8 o'clock classes, six days a week. It was not fun. SC: All male? AF: All male except for a couple of women teachers. SC: Did you commute there? AF: I did. My parents got me a car, and I commuted every day. SC: Better to have a car and commute than to live at Lehigh and be without a car. AF: Well, my parents tell me, and I don't remember, that they had offered me the opportunity of living on campus and I don't remember having that choice, but it's possible. SC: So, then after you graduated from Lehigh, where did you work? AF: I went through ROTC at Lehigh, and I was commissioned a second lieutenant upon graduation. And then, that August I went into the Air Force at the Tinker Air Force Base in Oklahoma City. I spent three years in the Air Force doing essentially failure analysis. We would get pieces and parts of airplanes and engines and components and try to figure out why they failed. And then at the same time, the University of Oklahoma was just about, maybe 20 minutes away. So off hours, I was able to, I figured I had about 2/3 of a master's degree in metallurgical engineering. SC: Did you find that the failure work that you did was helpful in business at all? AF: Well, I think that even though I don't have fond memories of the education part of Lehigh, I think that the scientific approach that I received was-- I came from a very different perspective than anyone else in the business and I think it made a difference for our success. SC: After the service, did you go overseas at all? AF: No. Not part of the service. I was in between Korea, before Berlin. I went overseas but it was not part of my work. I did go to Bermuda for an airplane inspection trip. But other than that, I did my work in Oklahoma City and went up to Boeing Aircraft in Seattle on a couple of occasions. SC: That's nice. AF: It was fun. I got a chance to do some fun things, good things in the Air Force. SC: After the Air Force, then what did you do? AF: I left the service in August of '61, but I was working on a project as part of my master's program. So I stayed on until November, until my father kind of made me an offer that I couldn't refuse. By that time, he had separated from Boxer ; had his own plant in South 12th Street in the Vultee industrial area. I just happened to see my last pay from the Air Force ; I was making like $5,700 a year. My father offered me $200 a week to join him in the business. GE: $200 a week. AF: A week. I'm sorry, $200 a week to join him in the business. So that was a lot of money and I certainly was familiar. I had worked in the summers for him, in youth facility so certainly I was quite familiar with what was involved. So I joined him in November/December of 1961. SC: In doing so, did you ever look back at where you might have gone, at all, or was this something that . . . ? AF: The first time I went to Boeing, I was a spanking new second lieutenant with one really shiny gold bar on each shoulder. I went to Seattle because the lad, who was a civilian, and I were going to inspect Curt Lemay's aircraft for a potential defect that was found in the B47. The KC-135, which was a forerunner of the 707 Boeing Jetliner, was just beginning to enter service, and they were concerned that some of the issues that were affecting the B47 might affect the 707 KC-135. So, Curt Lemay's aircraft was the most flown aircraft in the Air Force Fleet. So the Air Force decided, or Boeing decided this is the plane they wanted inspected. So I went out to Seattle and Moses Lake at their Tufts facility to examine his aircraft. SC: Did you ever look back on what you might have done? AF: We're in Boeing, before I got there, I was treated like royalty. People were opening doors, yes sir, no sir. And then they took me into a room where if I had gone to work for Boeing, I would have been. It was a room that went as far as the eye could see. And there were desks. And there were four desks that were butted together and in the center of the space of four desks was a single telephone on a revolving spindle that the four engineers shared. And I said, "Oh my God." So that was my first inkling that maybe my career path wasn't the one that would have been the best. And I had some other contact with jet engine manufacturers like Pratt & ; Whitney and General Electric. The corporate world got to be less and less appealing. SC: Can we move back now and talk as far back about your family as you know, and put you into some context coming from Poland? AF: Okay. So this is the family story, as I understand it. My father's mother was one of eighteen children. GE: Excuse me, What was her name? Your father's name was George . . . AF: My father's name was George and his mother's name-- I'll have to take a pass. The last name was Povembrovsky. There were eighteen. Several of my father's uncles came to the States around the beginning of the twentieth century. There was Isadore, there was Sam, and there was David. Those are the three that I know. Oh, and there was an Eli, as well. Some of the family went to Norway. As a matter of fact there was a Gibstein family that went to Norway. There was also part that stayed in Palestine. Yaakov Agam, the artist, was my father's first cousin. His mother and my father's mother were sisters. His name originally was Yaakov Gibstein. So that was part of that family. And so in probably the early '20s my father came to the States, around 1922. From what he told me, he left Poland, his mother smoked a turkey for him so that it would be preserved. He left Poland and started his trek across Europe until he got to, I believe Hamburg or Antwerp or something like that, for the trip to the States. GE: And the community they lived in in Poland, what was the name? AF: I believe it was Grodno, G-R-O-D-N-O, something like that. It was a farm that the Finkelstein (pronouncing it as Finkelshtein), as they pronounced it then, clan, there were several-- my grandfather, my father's father, several of his brothers and sisters I guess, were on the land. Apparently it was deeded to my father's grandfather for services rendered to Czar Nicholas. We don't know what those services were. It was Nicholas the First, not the Second. So that is the time frame where the land in Poland, or it was Russia, wherever it was at the time, was deeded to the Finkelstein family. SC: Which was unusual. AF: Which was very unusual. SC: So they were farmers. Do you know any other occupations that people had? Were they all on the land? AF: I know that my father, my mother's father, before he was prevented from doing so, was a-- I don't know the term, but he was allowed to buy forestland, or at least lease forestland and to cut the trees down for timber. Like logging. He obviously didn't have a chain saw or whatever, but I know that some of the better timber he sold to the shipyards in Gdansk, or Danzig as it was, for masted sail ships. GE: His last name? AF: Z-U-P-N-I-T-S-K-Y is how I would spell it. GE: And do you know what her father's name is? AF: Sholom SC: So, he could sell that. AF: He cut down the trees ; sell the very finest for masts and the rest would go for heating or paper. And then he was prevented. At some point the Polish government said that Jews were no longer allowed to do that. SC: Would they have been living in what was considered the Jewish Pale? AF: I don't think so. My mother grew up in Augustow. She went to school in Warsaw High School, and then she actually went to the University of Warsaw. GE: Wow, so they were really in central Poland, not Eastern? AF: Yes. She never graduated. I think the offer my father made her for whatever reason ; she left Poland a semester before graduating. But she spoke eight languages at one time. She spoke German, Polish, French, Yiddish, Hebrew, and English. We found a recipe book of hers after she passed away, that started out in Polish and then went into French and then ended up in Hebrew. GE: So it sounds like her family was on the more affluent side? AF: To begin with. GE: Until they took away his businesses? AF: Right. My mother had to pay her own way to go to gymnasium, the high school. She would work as a nanny, she worked as a tutor. So she basically had to support herself through high school and college. SC: So your father's family and your mother's family, they did have connections before you went back to Poland? AF: I don't know that they did. My father was a "Am Ha-Aretz," a man of the land. He was not cultured and not cultivated. He was very street smart. During the First World War he told stories of how the farm was on the moveable border between Germany and Poland and Russia. He told about how he hated the Poles. He never learned Polish. Life under German in World War One was by far better than under the Poles or the Russians. Life under German control -- GE: Even in World War Two? AF: World War One. They were basically left to be autonomous. He also remembers, he told stories of how he smuggled people across in a hay wagon across the border from Poland into Germany. So he was that kind of-- he was probably no good-nick at some point, but he learned very hard, had to fight his way to school several times a week to get to school. SC: Very smart, just maybe not as book smart. AF: He was very, very street smart. My mother was very, very cultured, smart. SC: So do you know anything else about their lives? Any of the family, or anybody that was in a trade like tailoring or garments? I'm trying to make a link. AF: No, I don't. I don't at all. I know that my father eventually helped his father buy out all of the other Finkelsteins from the land, but I don't know what they ended up going into. GE: And that was still in Poland? AF: That was still in Poland, in probably the early '30s. SC: One thing that I wanted to just talk a little bit about was, were they religious? Were they very observant in Poland and in the United States? AF: My father probably was more observant than my mother. I think my mother was in a more cosmopolitan space. I know that my father belonged to a shul in Allentown. Not Agudas Achim-- the other one. I think, I'm not sure. There were two synagogues on Second Street and there was one right down the street. GE: Was that orthodox? AF: They were both very orthodox. They were both very orthodox. He belonged to one of them. I know that he wouldn't cross the street to go to the other one. I don't know what level of observant. Although I know that when we moved back to the states, in New Brunswick, we belonged to an orthodox synagogue in New Brunswick until we moved to Highland Park, where we joined a conservative congregation. Which was pretty right wing conservative back in those days. *Looking at a picture* AF: This is my mother's family . . . From the information that my mother gave me, my father is in the picture, obviously, his father, my father's two sisters, brother and his aunt Hannah and apparently her husband, as well. GE: About what year is that and where is that? AF: This would have been at the farm in Poland and it's probably -- GE: Before 1922. AF: No, it's gonna be in the '30s. GE: Oh so he came back? AF: Yes he came back. What he was able to do in addition, he was able to get his sister Shoshanna and his brother Shlomo out of Poland into Palestine in the '30s. He had to give them one thousand British pounds so that they could come into Palestine and demonstrate that they were not going to be a ward of the State or whatever. For some reason, I don't know what happened with his other sisters, but they perished. In 1938, my parents took me, the prize one year old, to show off back in Poland. So, they tried to get my mother's brother out of Poland but he said this was going to blow over. So he also perished. SC: So you were there a year before, in '38, a year before the Nazi Soviet pact. So is there anything else with family that you can think of that we haven't asked. I asked how observant they were. How about their relationship with the community? I think you talked about it. AF: My father was very bad as I indicated. He had nothing but enmity for the Poles, and I'm sure it was returned as well. That was not a good situation. My mother grew up ; they had a piano in the house. She learned how to play piano. It was a very different environment. I think, I guess it was in Bialystok ; she had very fond memories of spending time at the lakes with her cousins and friends and whatever. On one level she spoke of a very idealic life in Poland. On the other hand, she left, and I'm not sure exactly what prompted her to not finish university, to rethink her rejection of my father's overtures and to . . .. I really don't know what happened there, but she obviously made the right decision in the long run for herself and us. GE: Did your mother talk about her friends and cousins? Were they all Jewish? In other words, was she just part of the nice . . . AF: I think they were all Jewish. GE: So you don't know about her relationship with the broader Polish community? AF: No, not at all. SC: I have a couple other questions at the end to ask you. GE: Is that a family tree? AF: This is a family tree. It's limited. It was done for our daughter Alana's bat-mitzvah. It goes back quite a few years. GE: Maybe afterwards we can just make a copy of that? AF: Sure. GE: So now we just want to find out a little bit more to understand better about the business. If you want to share with us, how the business originated? I think you had said it with your uncles. If you would just share with us how it originated, what was the specific business, who were their suppliers, who were their customers, what were they making? Those kinds of things. AF: My knowledge of this is fairly sketchy. What I do know is that my father when he came to the states went right to work in the factory in Brooklyn. He got off the boat, he had twenty-five cents in his pocket, and he goes to work in the factory. GE: This is around 1922? AF: Yes this is around 1922. He worked his way up, first a mechanic, he learned how to take the machines apart and put them back together again. Eventually, because he was blood, he was family, they gave him more and more -- he clearly, I think earned it -- but his uncles gave him more and more responsibility, including, I think they actually set up a plant in Cherbourg, Canada, in which he was involved. Then there was the big move to Allentown in 1928-1929 ; they built the building at the south end of the Eighth Street bridge in Allentown, the Arcadia Knitting Mills. It was a multistory building ; most recently it was converted into the Bridgeview Apartments. That plant manufactured . . . in its heyday manufactured rayon fabrics for women's undergarments. GE: Tell us a little bit about the process. In other words, what were their raw materials, what did they sell? AF: The raw material was rayon that was delivered on spools. Whether it was manufactured in England where it was invented, or whether Courtaulds had built a plant in the states, I don't know. They were getting regular shipments of rayon. They had, from what I understand, 1200 tricot machines, which is a kind of knitting machine. They also had a dye house in Allentown, which after the fabric was knit into rolls, they would be dyed to a particular color and then shipped to either converters or someone else who would cut the fabric into garments. Arcadia was only involved in the manufacture and dying of the fabric. GE: So they were both manufacturers and they were the dyers? AF: Right. GE: And I think you had said that they were the only manufacturer of rayon? AF: They had for some period an exclusive right to rayon for use in women's undergarment fabric for quite some time, especially during the early and mid thirties. GE: Of women's undergarments, do you know let's say rayon made up what percentage? AF: I don't know. GE: Otherwise, what was it made of? Cotton? AF: It was cotton, I think if it was very upscale it would have been silk. Rayon was a silk-like product, synthetic and much more readily available than silk. GE: And much cheaper. AF: Much cheaper. GE: So this probably had the majority of the market. AF: I think it must have, considering how busy they were during a particularly trying time in the United States ; they must have been doing a very large portion of the business. And they continued on until - my father left in 1933 - they continued on but in 1941 the government condemned the building and essentially gave it to Mack Truck, which was next door, so that Mack Truck could expand, and they started making trucks and whatever for the war. So the Arcadia Knitting Mills essentially ended. GE: So the uncles ended at that point? AF: The uncles ended the textile business. GE: Interesting. What brought them from Brooklyn to --? AF: My understanding is that they liked the fact that there was a very steady highly competent workforce in Allentown with a good work ethic. As a matter of fact, in preparation for this, I tried to do a little research, but the Morning Call archives only go to '84. I don't know whether their . . . whatever. But I did find an obituary of someone who worked at the Arcadia Knitting Mills as a knitter who passed away at 94, some years ago. GE: With that labor force, it was a plentiful, good work ethic. How about in terms of their salaries, compared to New York salaries? AF: I don't know, I can't answer that. GE: Was it unionized? AF: I don't think so. GE: They sold to cutters? AF: They sold to utters or manufacturers of the garment. It depends on how vertically integrated they were. GE: Okay. After your uncles left Arcadia in 1941, then really Arcadia ceased to exist? Is that correct? AF: That's my understanding. GE: Were your uncles ever again in the business? AF: I think they were quite wealthy and they moved out to California and got involved in other things. GE: Okay. SC: Have you seen the Allentown 225th book? I know it's mentioned in there. I'll copy the page. AF: I'd like to see it. GE: Of Arcadia? SC: Yeah. It's mentioned. GE: Was that one of the first knitting mills in this area? AF: If it wasn't one of the first, it was certainly the largest. GE: Okay. So then you were saying that your father -- tell us a little about your father's history. When he came back from Palestine to the U.S, just kind of gave us a little bit of that history with the business. I know he was in New Jersey. AF: In New Jersey, he had a little sewing plant, cutting, he had access to some rayon fabric. He was able, because the traditional manufacturers could no longer supply the big department stores ; my father was able to sell to the big department stores in New York and Philadelphia . . . women's undergarments that he manufactured in New Brunswick. GE: So now he was a manufacturer, not the knitter, and not the big fabric maker. AF: Right. GE: And do you want to just share with us why the large manufacturers were not--during the war? AF: During the war, the large manufacturers obviously turned into making uniforms and parachutes and all sorts of other things. And so they were out of the supply of domestic products. GE: Right. So it gave an opportunity for small-- AF: Yes. My father and a few women in a storefront making garments. During the war he did nicely, relatively well. GE: Right. After the war-- AF: After that war, that business completely evaporated. The traditional manufacturers came back into the mainstream. He tried a few different things without much success. He considered taking the family back to Israel, by this time. But that was even a tougher road to do I think in '49 and 1950 and so. Then he decided to try his hand again in the knitting mill and he bought some knitting machines and set up a small factory in Highland Park, New Jersey. GE: What made him move from there to Allentown? AF: The plant in Highland Park failed because they were too far away from the dye house area, which was typically in Reading, and he had to pay freight to ship the unfinished fabric to the dye house and that basically took away all profits. GE: So that took away all profits. AF: There was no profit. So he decided in 1954 to move back to Allentown, bought into a partnership with Sam Boxer. I think Sam's brother decided to get out. I think it was Lou Boxer, he bought Lou Boxer's portion of the business. They spent a year or two together and they decided to split. My father went on his own in, I think, probably 1956. GE: And you came in at what time, what year? AF: We moved to Allentown in 1954. GE: You joined your father what year? AF: After the Air Force in 1961. GE: Okay about 5 years later. So during those 5 years, your father was-- AF: A contract knitter knitting other people's yarn into fabric. At that time it was almost exclusively cotton. GE: So it was no longer the rayon? AF: No. No longer rayon. GE: The cotton was ultimately being made into what kinds of products? AF: The machines he had at the time were called interlock machines. The fabric went into polo shirts and . . . I mean, it was a very fine fabric. It's still being used today. Many of your better golf shirts are knit in the interlock machine out of 100% cotton or poly-cotton. That still is the standard for golf shirts, that material. GE: Who were some of your father's major customers? AF: I can't tell you that. I don't know. These were names that wouldn't have meant anything. GE: Okay. They're not necessarily brands that we know. AF: No. They were typically people who bought the yarn and had it knit up, and then would go out and try and sell the fabric to end users or cutters or whatever. They typically are called converters. All the business was done over the telephone or a handshake at most. There were thousands of dollars of goods transferred without ever a contract. GE: So when your father was doing this, were there many other knitting mills in the area here? AF: In New Brunswick, there were none that I'm aware of. In Allentown, there were a few. The Krasnov family was involved, Surefit was doing things like this on a larger scale, and there was another Krasnov that was doing it on some scale. But not a lot. GE: There was enough business that the 3, or 4, or 5 knitters who existed, there were enough customers? AF: Yeah. I mean, Boxer went off on his own. There were others that went . . . In 1961 before the synthetic boom, there were a few. After the synthetic boom started, which started just about the time when I joined my father in 1961, it became an entirely different thing in Allentown. GE: Okay. We'll hear about that in just a minute. SC: May I ask, how is Krasnov spelled? AF: I think K-R-A-S-N-O-V. GE: So now why don't you tell us about once you entered the business with your father? AF: Well I had worked for him on and off from 1950 through high school and in college a little bit, but I joined my father in 1961. As I said, it was right at the beginning of the synthetic boom of stretch nylon. I think my father was one of the first people to try to knit stretch nylon. Stretch nylon was initially a product that was developed by a Swiss company called Helenka [?]. They had taken raw fibers of nylon, and had developed a process where they would send it through a heated tube and it would crimp the nylon so that essentially a foot of raw nylon going in may have been 3 inches going out. But, it was crimped and had stretch. It was used in leotards in the stocking industry. The original nylon stockings were made out of that type of fabric. My father had a friend who gave him twenty spools of yarn with just a little bit of yarn on it to try and run it on an interlock-knitting machine. He was able to do that and came out with a very nice fabric that was stretched in two ways. And then I'm sure other people were experimenting at the same time. Then it just skyrocketed from there. GE: I thought DuPont. AF: DuPont had invented nylon, but Helenka in Switzerland developed the process for crimping the nylon. GE: Interesting. So DuPont developed the nylon and then they did this particular . . . AF: Post processing GE: . . . . post process that made it possible to become a fabric. AF: Yes. The typical nylon that DuPont made was you could make a rope out of it. GE: I thought even the parachutes. AF: Yes. Like sheet type fabrics, woven fabrics, not knitted into anything. SC: Better living through chemistry. AF: Better living through chemistry. That was Chemstrand, though. They they had their own nylon later on. GE: So this is around the very early 1960s, your father is learning how to-- AF: All of a sudden, almost overnight, synthetics. The cotton is out. Knitting cotton was a very - it was a dirty process. What happened is, as you were knitting the cotton, some of the staple would come off as fuzz and there was fuzz all over the place. As a matter of fact, my father was allergic to it. He ended up taking some of the fuzz and they made a serum and injected him with it so he could actually tolerate it and be in the factory. But there was stuff hanging all over the place. As soon as synthetics came in it was clean, it was almost an unbelievable transformation. GE: What is interesting is you're saying why this synthetic is so nice is the production got much better. How about at the end use? Isn't it also a better product for the consumer? AF: Well it was a very top-notch product at the time. When it compared to cotton, it was probably less expensive than cotton, but it performed, it washed, it kept its shape after many washes. It was an ideal fabric for children. One of my father's big customers was a company called Stretchini, which eventually sold to Bobby Brooks, that manufactured children's garments. We would knit, they would have it dyed and then they would cut it up into leotards and tops and they were advertising very heavily in the New York Times magazine section. Every week, Stretchini was just a very big name in children's garments, swimsuits. The fabric for the warm-up jackets and pants for the 1964 and 1968 Olympic team was made out of our fabric that we donated and gave to Wilson, which cut it up into garments. So, it performed very well. In fact, I may still have that jacket. So this was the pants that either the '64 or '68 Olympic team wore as their warm-up. I don't think I can get into them anymore. GE: Did this become the norm for all clothes or did you have any kind of proprietary rights to this? AF: No. What happened is as we were succeeding in '61 and on, the Boxer family was succeeding also. They had a plant not far from ours but they were right near where Good Shepherd is now. The Berman family with Fairtex had a big plant, which was right alongside Emmaus Avenue and 309. They had a big facility there. Between these three plants, between our plant and Fairtex and the Boxer plant, I would say that a very large percentage of the stretch nylon fabric was being produced right here in Allentown. GE: You say a very large percentage ; do you mean a large percentage that served the whole country? AF: Yes. We were serving the New York market, but the New York market was the market. GE: Among the three of you, it was enough business? It wasn't terribly competitive? AF: We competed for people by that time. We would compete for knitters. GE: For the workers? AF: For the workers, yes. GE: Okay so the constraint was more the workers, not how much you could make? AF: Yes the workers and the mechanics. There was enough for all of us. The big issue back then was how to make it. GE: So it was really a production constraint, not at all a market or selling one. SC: Would you say again where the Boxer's were located? AF: They were located right near the Good Shepherd facility in South Allentown. GE: During what time frame would you say this lasted? From 1961 until when? AF: '61 until it lasted into the early '70s. GE: So for a good ten years. AF: We sold our business in 1968. In 1967, we built a dye house. We had the knitting mill on South Albert Street, in Allentown. And then my father bought-- GE: What was the name of your knitting mill? AF: It started out as Allentown Knitting Mill. There was Lehigh Weaving Company because the building he bought had the name associated with it. Eventually Lehigh Knitting Mills became available, and someone else had the name, but gave it up. So we had those names. Then we had Syntex Dyeing and Finishing. My father purchased an old Sears warehouse on Union Boulevard and we converted that into a dye house. GE: From '61 to '71, did you also have dyeing? AF: The dyeing came in in about '67. GE: Because there was an earlier time when you did have dyeing. AF: At the Arcadia. GE: Okay. AF: But we started dyeing our fabrics in '67. Then we sold the business in '68 to Duplan Corp, which was a New York Stock Exchange listed company. GE: So it was a large one? AF: Pretentions of being large. GE: So it was publicly traded. AF: Yes. SC: Is that D-U-P-- AF: D-U-P-L-A-N. They were actually one of the suppliers of the nylon yarn. So, they had . . . GE: So they were vertically integrated. AF: They were vertically integrated during this period. There was a time of the conglomeration GE: Okay and even where you took on the dyes, which would again be vertically integrating, did you do that to have better control? AF: Clearly quality. We felt that in order to compete more successfully, we needed to have a product that we knew from beginning to end. SC: Were the double knits at that time, the really heavy double knits? AF: We went from the interlocking to double knits and then we also had single knits too. There were single knits with lighter weight like top fabric. Some of the, even today, some of the less expensive knit shirts will be a single knit fabric as opposed to the interlock which is a form of double knit. GE: Generally, your fabric would not be distinguished from Boxer's fabric? AF: Typically not. We would try to come up with different styles, we would try to come up with color combinations that were more seasonal. Our sales agency would twice a year would come up with a color palette, and we would do fabric for samples, and that's what the salesmen used to go out and sell. GE: And your salesmen, they were selling to manufacturers? AF: Manufacturers of the garments, yes. GE: I assume the manufacturers of the garments were the ones driving what color it should be? AF: Yes. Absolutely. GE: So then you sold it in '68, and at that point, your family was then out of-- AF: Well, my father retired at that point, and I stayed on as president of the new manufacturing organization. My father had already expanded ; we had a knitting mill in Rocky Mountain, North Carolina. So we had the knitting mill in Allentown, the knitting mill in Rocky Mountain, North Carolina, and the dye house in Allentown. When we sold to Duplan, Duplan had purchased a company out in California that had a knitting mill. So I became responsible for that plant as well. GE: What drove you to North Carolina? AF: Help. Labor. GE: What was the difficulty with the labor here? Was it not as plentiful? AF: I think there was the competition for knitters. The Fairtex was union. In order to compete, we had to keep up with union style wages. GE: But you were not union? AF: We were not union at the time. I think Fairtex, the Fairtex plant was much larger because it was all under one roof. So they had several hundred people working there. The knitting mill in Allentown was 30-40 people. Our knitting mill. The dye house we had several hundred people working at the dye house. I think the International Textile Workers were in Fairtex. And then they made several attempts to unionize our plant. The first few were unsuccessful. The last one was successful. Part of the problem was that under the new union rules, over-time occurred on the weekends, no matter how many hours you worked during the week. So we were finding that people were working four days during the week, taking off a day, then working Saturday and getting over-time. It would mess up our production cycles. So to give us a bit of a buffer, in terms of dealing with our needs, being able to fulfill our needs, my father just decided to get a plant started in Rocky Mountain. GE: So I'm trying to remember exactly where we were. At this point, the family also had a plant down in North Carolina. In terms of employees, you said you had about 40? AF: All together, at peak, I had about 400 people working for me. GE: Is that already once you were bought out or before? AF: Afterwards. GE: After you were bought out. AF: We expanded some after we were bought. We expanded the dye house and we expanded the knitting mill, so it was at peak. Probably before we sold it must have been somewhere in the 200-250. GE: You had said that the breakdown was most of it was dye and much smaller was the knitting is that correct? AF: No. We were basically matching our dye house to what we could produce. GE: Right but how about in terms of employees? AF: Employees, there were many more people in the dye house. GE: It was more labor intensive? AF: Much more labor intensive. One knitter could tend three, four, five, six machines depending on the style. In the dye house you needed multiple people to keep things going on one machine. GE: So the dying was very labor intensive. SC: That was in Rocky Mountain that you had 400 people? AF: No. There were a total of 400. We had probably about 20 in Rocky Mountain. It depends on if we were running, we very often ran three shifts. GE: How would you characterize the relationship employees have with management? With yourself as well as the management staff? AF: I think in spite of the fact that some people would take a look at unionization and that this represented some kind of difficulty. I don't think it did. I think it was just the way that things were going at the time. I thought we generally had a pretty good relationship. I'm sure there were issues but I think we paid pretty fairly. As a matter of fact, whereas I said earlier that I think Fairtex asked the union to try to organize us. I got back at them a little bit some time later in the second contract that we only had 30-40 people that were unionized. Fairtex had several hundred. I had mentioned that we had difficulty with people not working their full workweek but coming in for overtime and getting the overtime. In the second contract that I signed after the first two or three years, I got a concession. I paid more for an hourly wage because we could do it. But I got a concession from the union that overtime would only begin after forty hours. So, that really helped us a great deal. What happened was that Fairtex had to now match what we were giving, on an hourly, and one of the Berman brothers called me up screaming at me saying what I did to them. GE: Do you want to just tell us a little bit, you had said I think around '67-'68 that Duplan-- AF: Duplan, '68. During '67, early part of '68-- let me go back a little bit. My father had, right around the time that I joined, he had a friend in the textile industry that was a high power salesman in New York. Clarence Ross had the sales agency, my father had the manufacturing, and the two of them formed a 50-50 partnership to sell stretch nylon to the trade. That company was called Stretch Knit. GE: Stretch Knit is the one who is making it? AF: Stretch Knit was the product that the sales agency was selling to the trade. It was the position of a middleman but it was a way of getting two separate companies owning a third to be able to service the industry. GE: You say by trade you mean the retailers? AF: The manufacturers. GE: So this was still before the garment. AF: Before the garments. This was selling it to people that would turn it into garments. It was a part of the business that I saw as the future. My father, there were really big egos involved in this. All along there was a thought that we were kind of working toward merging the three companies into one and potentially going public on our own. That wasn't particularly the right period for doing things like that. Through '67, early '68, there was a lot of negotiation between the local parties to see if we could come up with a merger. The biggest problem was the sales agency basically had no assets. They had a couple paintings on the wall and some office furniture. We had a lot of iron. We had a lot of very expensive types of equipment. So trying to find the balance as to how to value the new company was a problem. I kept thinking that it could work out. I thought we had a deal and then that deal fell apart. We were at the same time being courted by Duplan to sell the business. I remember after meeting in New York I came back to my father and said we are never going to make a deal. That's when we sold the business. So we had thought about going the private route. GE: And then with Duplan your father retired? AF: My father retired. GE: You became the CEO it sounds like. AF: The head of manufacturing. Eventually, a year or so later, Duplan bought the sales agency. So even though the sales agency continued to sell our product now owned by Duplan, there was some tension but eventually it worked out and was back under one roof. GE: And how long did you stay as--? AF: I had a five-year contract with Duplan that I guess after 3 and a half years, we agreed to disagree. Things were changing. I remember clearly one of the sales pitches and getting us to be bought out, we don't want the iron, we don't want the machines. We want the people that are making it happen. And then, pretty much as soon as they buy us, the corporate people take over and we have to hire a controller and we have to have monthly reports. All of a sudden, as smart as we were before we were bought, now we are dumb and don't know what we are talking about. They try to get policy wonks to come in and change things. GE: So the whole management style. AF: The whole management style changed and that kind of confirmed to me the decision I made to go in with my father, not to go in with the big corporations. Clearly, I was not a corporate type. GE: You stepped out it sounds like. AF: I stepped out in May of 1972. And then the business, and I don't think there is a cause or a relationship, but the overall business started not long thereafter to decline. It declined in my view because not only were people like Duplan buying knitters, but the big weaving companies were buying knitting mills as well. Weavers had the Cohen mills, the Burlington's, people that were making sheets and towels and shirt fabrics and stuff like that. They had a mindset of you set up a loom and three years later you change it. So they were at very long run productions, very low margins. Knitting mills were very versatile. We had a hundred knitting machines in Allentown, within a few days ; I could pretty much change every one of them to something else. Because of its versatility and because of its smallness, there was a very high margin product as well. I think that weaver became very jealous of the high profit margins of the knitting mills. But when they bought the knitting mills, they started to impose their mindset. So before polyester became a dirty word, it was a very high performing product. I kind of remember these numbers. We used to deliver fabrics typically that were 12 to 13 ounces per square yard. Which doesn't mean anything by itself, but it's a substantial product. A year or two later, when the weavers were competing in bulk because that's the only thing that they knew, the fabric was now down to 10-10 ½ ounces per square yard and it stopped performing completely. So overnight that business completely busted. The machine that I had mentioned that we bought from England ; at one point we would pay $50,000 a machine for those machines. After I left, about a year or two after I left, I was offered by a machinery salesman that I could buy four machines for $37,000. GE: Okay so therefore nobody was buying? AF: Nobody was buying. Overnight the business-- I think it was just a change in mentality and the way that it affected the quality of the fabric. GE: So just so that I understand, so you're saying that in the '60s, these synthetics came in and they just took off, but then in the '70s it started to reverse? AF: Yes. GE: Your hypothesis is that happened because the Weavers really cheapened or diminished the quality? AF: That's my take. It may not be all of that. It was not foreign competition because the knitting machines were very high cost. GE: It was a high barrier to entry. AF: It was very expensive. GE: They cheapened it. I'm not sure I fully understand that. AF: They lightened it. SC: It wasn't durable. AF: It wasn't nearly as durable, as useful as a product. It's like taking the garment like I showed you with the double knit, where you had a nice substantial feel, and then making it a single knit. It just didn't perform anymore. GE: The knitters are making the fabric, what are the weavers making? AF: The weavers are also making the fabric, but they are making commodity fabrics. GE: Tell me what you mean by that. AF: Sheets. You don't make sheets a hundred yards at a time. You make sheets a thousand or a million yards at a time. GE: So they're the ones doing the big ones. AF: Right. GE: And the knitters were the ones who were doing more custom and small? SC: So you had 45-60 inch fabric being knit in long tubes as opposed to -- AF: Yeah. For us a 10,000-yard order is a significant order. 10,000 yards is what they would bang out over a weekend. GE: Interesting. And then they started going down already. Now we are in the '70s. How long did they last, that business? AF: I think somewhere around '75, give or take. The Duplan went bankrupt and for several years the dye house and the plant in Allentown went into receivership or whatever. In 1978, one of the people I knew from Stretchini, they approached me to help a company that he was involved with to run the dye house. So they bought the dye house in Allentown, our old dye house. GE: Stretchini. AF: Not Stretchini. It was a company out of Pottsville that bought the plant in Allentown and I helped run that. I think I joined them in '78. GE: And how long did you do that? AF: I think it was around '78 to '81. And again I guess I wasn't cut out to be in the corporate world. I basically was the head of the plant in Allentown, but there was a lot of interference from people that really didn't know what they were talking about. SC: Did you know the Delins in Pottsville? AF: No. GE: Arnold Delin, I think that was very much with the sewers. SC: Yeah it was different. GE: So after you were done with that, any other connections? AF: That ended my textile connection. GE: Alright. Terrific. So I was just going to ask you, you grew up in the Allentown area, want to share with us a little bit about-- well you didn't grow up here, how old were you? AF: 17. GE: Okay so tell us a little bit about the Jewish community in Allentown that you saw as a younger person, how do you think it was affected by the textile industry being very dominant in the Jewish community? AF: Well I met a few Jewish kids the summer that I moved to Allentown. It was softball in the summer, maybe a little basketball during the winter months. But, as far as my involvement, my parents belonged to Beth El and my mother and father were regular goers. We would go Friday night quite often. My mother became president of the sisterhood. In fact, Marlene and I met at Beth El. GE: So Marlene grew up in this area? AF: No. She had an aunt that moved here - whose husband owned Dobnoff's - the women's dress store on Hamilton Street. The aunt lived next door to a friend of my mother's who saw her picture and her next-door neighbor made the Shiddach, the connection. So we met, I was in the Air Force, I was home on leave and Marlene finished finals. She was at Hunter College, and she reluctantly came out and even more reluctantly went to temple Friday night and that's where we met. We were supposed to have a date the following night, but we were not supposed to meet Friday night. GE: So as you got a little bit older, this kind of industry and its dominance here, what kind of impact do you think it had on the Jewish community here? AF: I think it made for a lot of wealthy people. There were only a few of us in manufacturing, but a lot of people in the sewing. After we were married, I was involved with the Federation, and I had a chance to meet and to know some of the people that were in the textile industry. It was a Camelot period. It was a golden age. GE: How long would [you] say that Camelot period went, from when to when? If you had put a starting point and ending point? AF: I think there was a lot of stuff going on before the synthetic business started and there was some stuff going on afterwards. I think that period of time between the early '60s and the mid '70s, I may be a little fuzzy on those dates but it is essentially those dates that really was a golden age. GE: Right, in Allentown's Jewish community. How do you see it now? AF: It's a very different, much more professional community. Back then it was all manufacturers, it was scrap, it was rags, it was whatever. Now it is professional. GE: Do you think it's as cohesive, as involved and affluent? AF: I think that it is probably, I would say that it is more cohesive now, less affluent. For example, the money that was raised by Federation between '67 and '73, I mean it was a lot of money. That's when I was into it. I got involved in the mid-'60s. I know that there was a lot of money raised before that as Israel was being founded. There was a lot of money raised. If you look at what a million dollars was in let's say the '73 campaign, the Yom Kippur War campaign. I was the campaign chairman, we doubled that year, obviously because everybody was cleaning out their bank accounts. We raised over $2 million. If you look at what $2 million then is compared to what it is now. GE: It's worth five times as much. AF: At least that. Campaign today is very nice but it doesn't have the kind of money that people gave like Murray Goodman and the Kobrovskys, and others of that stature were giving huge amounts of money. SC: Was that '67 or '68? GE: '73. SC: Okay. GE: How do you think your family, especially your uncles, because they were really the first, how do you think they got involved in the needle trade industry? Why in the needle trade industry? AF: I don't know. GE: Why do you think that there definitely was a Jewish propensity in the needle trade industry compared to some other industries? Any thoughts? AF: I think it is typical. There is a vacuum that somebody doesn't want to fill and a vacuum that somebody does want to fill. I read this interesting article, it's not about textile but it's about lawyers in New York who thought that doing mergers and acquisitions was beneath them. So the Jewish lawyers in New York became the M& ; A specialists and as the stock market boomed, the M& ; A boomed and all of the white shoe firms that decided doing M& ; A was beneath them and not dignified were out in the cold and the Jewish firms grabbed on everything and succeeded. My guess is it's something like that. Again, I think there were areas that were closed. So you're looking for areas that are open. GE: Okay I think we pretty much covered everything. SC: So now my first question is what has made you feel the most creative or the most satisfied in your life or maybe that has given you a sense of artistry in your life in the broadest sense? AF: I think I had a good time fooling around with the designs of the knitting machines, or the fabric rather. We'd come up with different combinations of yarn and different colors to see if we could make something interesting. That was a fun time. In addition to nylon, there were two types of polyester we were using. One you could not dye at all and the other one could be dyed, so you could end up getting three colors. So that was a fun thing to play around with and for me personally, I think photography has become a place where I get my creative jollies taken care of. SC: And how about, what do you value most in life? AF: I think the stuff today is really all about being a husband and a grandfather. That's become, there's no way that I could have a job today because I am too busy being a professional grandfather. We have six granddaughters and three daughters. It's a full-time job. In fact, we are going after this, we're not babysitting because they are 15 and 12, but we are taking them out for dinner because their parents aren't around tonight so we're taking them out to dinner.. GE: You know we actually didn't get into that at all. How would you say that you and your family are connected both to the Jewish community and to the wider community, presently? AF: Jewish community has been an interesting challenge. That's a subject for another interview. We were very active in Beth El. Marlene was on sisterhood and I was executive vice president. I had been asked to become president of Beth El. But we got involved, we were in I guess the epicenter of the politics that occurred about 35 years ago. It had to do with our daughter's bat-mitzvah. We had a situation, I mean she was a day school alum ; she went to Camp Ramah, very competent in Hebrew and the prayers and whatever. We wanted her bat-mitzvah where she could maximize her involvement, and Beth El at the time looked to minimize the involvement of the kids. So we kind of parted ways and we were instrumental in starting Am Haskalah at the time. During that period of time we were very actively involved. I was at the Jewish committee, one time I was on four boards. I was president of the Federation for a while ; '78-'80 I think. I was involved with the day school, with the center, with Beth El. Now it's nothing. GE: How about your involvement with the wider community? And then we'll speak to Marlene. AF: Organizationally not really. I was involved with the Allentown Fair Housing Commission years ago when it first started. I was involved, but that was pretty much it. Was there something else-- oh yes, it was not a formal involvement but my father had purchased some property in downtown Allentown. When he passed away I pretty much was running the real estate. So The Caring Place is the building that we used to own, and I pretty much gave them a free ride for a year because they couldn't possibly pay me. So, I mean Mary and I had a very nice relationship. So that was not a direct involvement but at least it was a gift of whatever. SC: And it still goes on. AF: Yes, it still goes on. It had its troubles but the gift goes on. And it's great, I love what the potential is for what she has done down there. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). 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Arnan Finkelstein, May 15, 2014
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Arnan Finkelstein talks about being born in Tel Aviv, Palestine (this is prior to the establishment of the State of Israel) and spending his young childhood there. In the early 1940s, during World War II, the Finkelstein family returned to the U.S. When they returned to the U.S., Arnan’s father manufactured women’s undergarments during the war. After the war, Arnan’s father returned to owning a knitting mill, which he did prior to living in Tel Aviv. Arnan entered the family business in 1961. At this time synthetic fabrics were being developed and the Finkelsteins were active in this. After Arnan’s father sold the business in the late 1960s, Arnan stayed involved in different textile enterprises until 1981.
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LVTNT-18
Date
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2014-05-15
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Title
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
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Bernie Filler
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Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-13.xml
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5.4 May 19th, 2014 Bernie and Bunny Filler, May 19th, 2014 LVTNT-13 1:33:24 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Bernie Filler Bunny Filler Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 FillerBernie_Bunny_20140519_revised.mp4 1.0:|17(11)|44(13)|59(11)|80(14)|97(11)|118(4)|135(13)|156(15)|179(15)|202(2)|239(16)|262(3)|281(19)|304(6)|325(10)|344(4)|365(6)|388(7)|421(3)|438(4)|463(15)|488(4)|509(4)|534(11)|549(10)|572(4)|603(4)|624(6)|655(10)|674(14)|697(15)|718(3)|735(11)|754(12)|777(14)|796(6)|823(9)|854(15)|881(9)|904(7)|943(3)|964(5)|979(6)|1002(13)|1027(11)|1056(11)|1079(11)|1110(11)|1131(12)|1154(5)|1179(3)|1210(8)|1235(19)|1260(10)|1283(7)|1304(8)|1329(10)|1348(14)|1373(16)|1402(15)|1425(5)|1450(14)|1475(17)|1498(4)|1519(2)|1546(5)|1571(6)|1598(5)|1617(7)|1638(9)|1663(14)|1688(11)|1709(7)|1738(5)|1761(6)|1782(5)|1819(13)|1840(6)|1871(5)|1896(17)|1917(5)|1948(11)|1977(3)|2010(11)|2037(13)|2062(7)|2087(7)|2114(15)|2151(3)|2178(3)|2201(11)|2226(7)|2259(6)|2264(6) 0 https://youtu.be/pLgMPrpqv1o YouTube video 0 Family History SC: Today is May 19th, 2014, and first interview with Mr. Filler. So I would like you to just go back and talk about your history, your full name, when you were born, where you were from, and then we will go from there. 
 ; 
 ; BF: Okay. My full name is Bernard J Filler. I was born in New York City ; I can’t remember which hospital it was in. I was born October 2, 1932, New York Hospital. I lived in the Bronx. 0 632 Early Job History SC: So as far as- Those were all the jobs that you had before you came to the Lehigh Valley?
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 ; BF: No.
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 ; SC: Well tell me more about the jobs that you had.
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 ; BF: I worked for my uncle for about two years. I guess somewhere along the line we got married, and I had a very close friend in FIT. We were very friendly. He had gotten a job in South Carolina and ended up managing three factories there. He called me one day and said how would you like to move to South Carolina?
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 ; GE: And this is what, the 1960s?
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 ; BF: [19]50s. 0 1713 Rosenau Company SC: And Rosenau was R-O-S-E-N-A-U?
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 ; BF: Yes. 
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 ; Bunny: I think it was two N’s. 
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 ; SC: Was it? Yeah, I’ve seen it with two N’s.
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 ; GE: The company that you were with for seven years, was that Cinderella?
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 ; Bunny: That was Rosenau. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Rosenau owns it and Cinderella’s just the brand?
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 ; BF: Yeah, Rosenau. 0 2393 What Bernie Manufactured GE: May I just go back a second to make sure I’m clear. So when you went into your own business, tell me what kind of garments were you making again?
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 ; BF: Blouses. 
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 ; GE: Blouses. Anything else or just blouses?
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 ; BF: Just blouses.
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 ; GE: Women’s blouses?
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 ; BF: Women’s blouses. 
 ; 
 ; GE: And they were made from what kind of fabric?
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 ; BF: Mostly cotton. 
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 ; GE: Cotton and knits.
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 ; BF: No knits. Knit manufacturers were a different category. 
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 ; Bunny: It was Personal Sports Wear and Breckenridge. 0 2824 Atlantic Apparel Association SC: Did you belong to any of the associations? 
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 ; BF: I belonged to the Atlantic Apparel Association. Which everybody did.
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 ; GE: That was the one with Arnold Delin?
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 ; BF: Yes. When I joined there were about a hundred and some odd members. By the time I left there were maybe 20 left. 
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 ; GE: So by the time you retired, in the late 1990s, this was pretty much gone from the area?
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 ; BF: Yes.
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 ; SC: And that was late. So many people were out way before that. 
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 ; BF: Well, that’s because I was good. 0 2987 Involvement in the Jewish Community GE: Right. Would you like to share- Matt, we’ll ask you if you have any questions. But would you like to share with us a little bit about the Jewish community when you came, both what you came, what it was like, and also what you’ve observed? You’ve been here now I think you said 48 years?
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 ; Bunny: Forty-eight years. But he’s been here longer.
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 ; GE: What has it meant to you being part of the Jewish community here, and what was that like, here in Allentown?
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 ; BF: Well we got married and we wanted to have a family and wanted them to be Jewish. So we decided we would join a synagogue. So I went shopping, and I went to Beth El first and talking to them I found that they were pretty well booked up, and if I joined that synagogue I would have to sit in the back, in a different room in the back for services, for holidays because all the seats, or a good number of the seats belong to old congregants. 
 ; 
 ; GE: This was about what year?
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 ; Bunny: 1966-67. 0 3163 Connection Between the Jewish Community and the Garment Industry SC: Do you think there is a reason why people in the Jewish community became involved in the garment industry overall?
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 ; BF: That’s what they were doing when they came from New York. 
 ; 
 ; GE: So even let’s say why in New York? In other words, what do you think was the association between Jews and the garment industry?
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 ; BF: Because they couldn’t get jobs in industries. You couldn’t work for GM, you couldn’t work for- so they decided to go into the garment business. And of course they ended up very, very large in the garment business and still are, still are. 0 3521 Inspiration for Life Path Voice: I have a couple of follow up questions going back to your uncle’s factory in New York that you were talking about. Do you feel like your uncle was your biggest inspiration to kind of lead you on the path that you ended up following?
 ; 
 ; BF: No. The only inspiration he gave me was he gave me knowledge. My mother said to me, stay with your uncle, some day the business will be yours. He was never married. When he was 55 or 60 years old he got married and married a very wealthy woman and shut the business down. 
 ; 
 ; Voice: She shut it down before you had the opportunity to take it over.
 ; 
 ; BF: Yes. So I did the right thing. 0 3612 Methods Work—Achieving Efficiency & ; Standardization in the Business BF: My specialty was engineering, time and motion studying piece rates, methods work. I was very, very good at that. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Tell us what you mean by methods work.
 ; 
 ; BF: Well a girl- somebody came to work for me and I didn’t know if she could sew. She sat down at the machine and I knew exactly how I would tell her to pick up this one and over that one. I knew this. And she sat down and put two pieces together and shook her head no. She did it again and shook her head no. Then she did it the way I would have told her the third time and she shook her head yes. That’s what I did. When you walked into my factory, let's say we had 6 sleeve setters, 6 pocket setters, if you came and you looked at them, all 6 would be doing them exactly the same way. 
 ; 
 ; SC: That’s efficiency.
 ; 
 ; GE: Yes, I was going to say. That’s efficiency and standardization. 0 3801 Bernie's Values and Creative Inspirations SC: So my first question is, what has made you feel the most artistic in your life? And I mean that in that sort of metaphoric sense of creativity, completion, you know, sense of satisfaction in your life.
 ; 
 ; BF: Well, my wife's the only one in the family with musical talent, and she inspires me. As a matter of fact, on June 20th, she's going to become a bat mitzvah. And we're looking forward to that. And of course, now my grandchildren inspire me — in very small ways.
 ; 
 ; SC: And what do you value most in life? 
 ; 
 ; BF: Well, other than the work that I did all those years, my family. 0 3863 How the Garment Industry Has Impacted the Allentown & ; Jewish Communities GE: And one other question I was wondering, in terms of the community, 50 years ago, this community had much more industry and small industry. Now there's much, much less of it. How do you think that has impacted the community? The broad community — and actually, the broad community and maybe more specific- and then two things, the broad community and then also how about the Jewish community? Do you think the Jewish community has been impacted by this?
 ; 
 ; BF: I don't think so. Because, as I started saying, the Jewish community couldn't do other things. Today they can. So they're not as impacted by not having garment factories.
 ; 
 ; GE: And how about the broad community? Do you think our community just now has other things? Is it in any way been diminished or maybe it's even stronger or better because we don't have those factories? What do you think? Any thoughts?
 ; 
 ; BF: It doesn’t affect me, I don’t think it affects other people. 0 3948 What Was Your Biggest Challenge Professionally? Voice: Aside from having to move around a lot, going to the different factories around the country, what do you feel like your biggest challenge was professionally, aside from that? Like, internally within the factories that you had to work in?
 ; 
 ; BF: Well, owning my own business, and being successful, and that's what I was happy to do.
 ; 
 ; Bunny: That was your biggest challenge?
 ; 
 ; GE: Was that a big challenge because of the risk?
 ; 
 ; BF: It was. First thing I had to do when I decided to buy a business was go to the bank and borrow money. I had never done that in my life. And fortunately, my mother, who at that time was in her eighties and living alone in New York — well not exactly alone, she had a boyfriend — but she had some money saved and I said to her I could use some money to buy my business 0 4110 Bringing Methods Work to Portugal BF: One place, okay, one place when I was working in Tennessee, my boss sent me to Portugal for a month. He said there was somebody who wanted to make some housecoats for us, and I said- and he said he doesn't know anything about making housecoats, want to go show him? So I said, okay. And I was there for a month, and I like to say that for a month I was God. Because in Portugal, I walked in, I went to see the sewing company in Lisbon and I said, “I’m going to need to buy some sewing machines.” And so, “What do you need?” And I gave him this list for about 20 machines, and he looked at me and said, “I haven’t got this many machines.” He said, “It'll take me a couple of weeks to get them.” I said okay — I mean, they didn't have it. And you know what a cutting table is? We had a- the factory that I went to, the man was making pillowcases, so his cutting table was about six yards long — you know, pillowcases. And we needed a 14 yard table for the house dresses. So I said, “Okay, we have to buy some lumber. What's the cheapest lumber to buy here?” And they said, “Mahogany!” So we built the mahogany cutting table, probably the only one in the world, and it worked fine. And when I came from New York to go to the factory, I brought a bunch of attachments that you put on the sewing machine. One was a cord piper. 0 4587 Introduction—Bunny (Helen) Filler SC: So would you state your full name, when you were born, and where you grew up? 
 ; 
 ; Bunny Filler: Well I’m not gonna tell you when I was born.
 ; 
 ; SC: Okay, that’s fine.
 ; 
 ; Bunny: My name is Helen Filler, but nobody calls me that and nobody knows me by that name. My name is Bunny. I got that nickname many years ago when I was a camper and it stuck. 0 4627 Bunny's Family History Bunny: My mother and father — my mother's name is Frieda Thelma Kraft, no relation to Kraft Foods unfortunately. My father's name is Julius Alexander. My son is named after him. And my grandparents on my father's side — my paternal grandfather was a Yankee, which is very unusual. He was born here. My paternal grandmother was born in Lithuania and they met here in this country. My paternal grandfather-
 ; 
 ; GE: Do you know any names? So like you're-
 ; 
 ; Bunny: Harry. I'm named after Harry, that’s where Helen came from. Harry, and my grandmother's name was Lena Platt and her family was- wound up in Harrisburg. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Okay, and Lena Platt- she was the one, they were from Lithuania. 
 ; 
 ; Bunny: She was from Lithuania originally, yeah. 0 5055 Education and Career in Early Childhood Education SC: So where have you worked in your life?
 ; 
 ; Bunny: Well, I went to, I went to P.S. 11, went to William Howard Taft High School, and then I went to Boston University. And I became an early childhood- I was an early childhood major, and I taught kindergarten in New York for five years. And then my Prince Charming came and we got married, and we came to- and he helped me find a job here. He called places for me because I was still in New York, and I got a job in the Allentown School District. Otis Rothenberg I think interviewed me and he wanted to give me a first-grade position, and I looked at him square in the eyes — I don't know how I got the nerve — and I said, “I'm going to be a brand new bride. I don't know a soul in Allentown. I don't know anything. But I am a wonderful kindergarten teacher, and I've been doing it for years. I really don't want something new.” He went and looked up something. He said, “Fine, you can teach kindergarten at Lehigh Parkway.” 0 5264 "Mr. Bunny"—Bernie's Contributions to the Jewish Community Center & ; Jewish Day School Bunny: My husband supported me three-hundred percent. He loved the fact that I was there. He came to every program I ever did. He made the costumes, talking about his factory, he made all our costumes for us. We used to do Purim and we used to do parody shows. And he did Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. He did the music, really did all of it. He made all the costumes for us. He's been a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful husband. He really has been, I’m very lucky.
 ; 
 ; SC: And the Center has been so successful.
 ; 
 ; Bunny: Excuse me?
 ; 
 ; SC: It's so successful. 
 ; 
 ; Bunny: Yeah, it was, it was really good.
 ; 
 ; BF: As a result of her teaching there, to this day, I'm still- she used to introduce me to her children. And to this day now, because the parents are now grandparents, they still call me “Mr. Bunny.” 0 5349 Changes in the Landscape and People of Allentown SC: How do you see the community, the wider community and the Jewish community, changing over time? And Allentown, perhaps? 
 ; 
 ; Bunny: Well Allentown has grown tremendously. When we first came here, I had to go down to King of Prussia- not King of Prussia, Plymouth Meeting to buy clothes for my little boy. I mean, there was nothing — there were two shops here, the Children’s Shop and I think Clymer’s Carousel. And there was nothing else, there was no mall, there was nothing. So it's grown tremendously that way. You know, I've seen a lot of people coming in from the area, a lot of transplants here. So that's changed. How do I see the whole community? It's not just the community, it's society. Everything is very different today. Sometimes I wish I could go back in time. I think, you know, we've become a little bit too casual and a little bit too disrespectful. The kids, adults as well. I saw it in parents as well as children. 0 5430 Bunny's Values and Creative Inspirations SC: So what do you value in life? This is going to beep soon, that’s why I…
 ; 
 ; Bunny: What do I value in life? What Bernie said, I mean, I value my family, my husband first and foremost, my children, my grandchildren, my synagogue that I have seen growing now. We've been through some very hard times and it's now coming back thanks to a wonderful, wonderful rabbi. And I just you know, I just think it's really, really important. It's been our social life. And I value my friendships. As he said, my synagogue has been such an integral part of my life, all of a sudden at this old age, I decided I was going to become a Bat mitzvah all by myself. No classes, no nobody else, just me. And it's been a very, very surreal but incredibly fulfilling experience. I never would have dreamed this. And I never belonged to a synagogue growing up. Nothing. So that makes it even more special for me. It really does. 
 ; 
 ; SC: And what makes you feel the most creative, artistic, satisfied? I mean, I think you sort of said that, but anything else?
 ; 
 ; Bunny: I mean, I don't look at myself as a creative individual. I don't- I mean I don’t-, well when I think of creativity, you know, I think of artistic, making things, and coming up with all these wonderful ideas. Sometimes I am, I gave him the most wonderful 80th birthday party, and I'm not patting myself on the back. We did it together and it was fabulous, fabulous. 0 MovingImage Bernie Filler talks about how he grew up in the Bronx, worked part-time for his uncle who was in the textile business and attended FIT after high school. After graduating and being in the service, Bernie worked as a manager and an engineer at several large apparel factories, first in the South, then in Pennsylvania, before buying his own factory in Palmerton, PA. At the time, the factory made women’s blouses. After a while, Bernie became a subcontractor to Tama Manufacturing making pants for Alfred Dunner. Bernie worked with Tama Manufacturing making pants for Alfred Dunner until Bernie retired in the late 1990s.
 ; 
 ; Bunny Filler talks about her childhood growing up in the Bronx, attending Boston University, teaching kindergarten in New York and then meeting her “Prince Charming” (Bernie) and coming to Allentown. When Bunny’s younger child was a toddler, Bunny began a music program at the JCC Nursery School and later at the Jewish Day School. A few years later, Bunny began a pre-kindergarten program at the Jewish Day School, which she taught for twenty-seven years.
 ; Interview with Bernie Filler, May 19th, 2014 GAIL EISENBERG: Well I can see pictures behind you. SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is May 19th, 2014, and first interview with Mr. Filler. So I would like you to just go back and talk about your history, your full name, when you were born, where you were from, and then we will go from there. BERNIE FILLER: Okay. My full name is Bernard J Filler. I was born in New York City ; I can't remember which hospital it was in. I was born October 2, 1932, New York Hospital. I lived in the Bronx. SC: Do you remember the address where you grew up? BF: Something Fox Street. SC: Fox Street, okay, yes. So can you talk a little bit about your education, from the time you were a small child all the way through? BF: Okay, my secular -- you don't want my religious background, do you? SC: Oh that's fine. Yes. BF: I can give that too. It's not very large. I went to elementary school and junior high school in the Bronx and-- GE: What was the name of the schools? SC: It's okay. BUNNY FILLER: He went to a lot of schools. BF: I went to a lot of schools. GE: Okay, that's fine. BF: And then when I started to go to high school, I took a test for Stuyvesant High School and I went to Stuyvesant. And from Stuyvesant High School I went to the Fashion Institute of Technology. That was a two-year course. I studied management. In that class I also learned time study and motion study and how to sew cloth onto my pants. We were taking sewing lessons and learned all about sewing machines and attachments that went on sewing machines and what they did. So we got a real, real serious in-the-industry education. Then I was- was- went to work for my uncle who was in the dress business. The name of his business was Saint James Junior Company, which was in- on 35th Street and 7th Avenue, New York. SC: How old were you then? BF: I started working for him when I was 16 after school and on weekends. I worked for him for two years full time after school. No, no I was going to FIT, I still worked for him part time. When I graduated from FIT, it was about less than a year and I was drafted. GE: And this was about what year when you were drafted? BF: [19]48, maybe. I graduated high school in '48, so probably 1950. SC: Did you see active service anywhere overseas? BF: No. No. I was drafted during the Korean War and, as a matter of fact, I took my basic training in Indiantown Gap here, and I was sent to Germany and I spent two years in Munich. I was a- I got an office job while I was in the army, I was a company clerk, and I took care of all the records for service company. SC: That sounds like a good job in the service. BF: And I was in Munich for- Oh. When I was in elementary school, everyone had to go to the Glee Club and be tested for their- what type of voice they had, tenures, [etc.]. So everybody would sing and the teacher would tell them what their category was. So I sang and she said you're a listener. So I have been a listener my whole life. When I was in the army, some place along the line they put up a bulletin board, notice, that the local chaplain wanted to put a choir together for the high holidays. And we were going to Berchtesgaden in the German Alps for three days to rehearse. So I signed up and we ended up standing on- in the Bavarian Alps looking at the Swiss Alps and the Italian Alps, a magnificent place. They brought along a little portable organ that you pumped, and they handed out some- handed out song sheets and I was standing right behind him and he was right behind the organist. And he taps her shoulder, she starts playing, we start singing, in about 10 seconds he taps her shoulder, says, "Wait a minute," and turns around, looks at me, and says, "Would you mind restricting yourself to the 'amens'?" So I guess I couldn't sing. So everything- that was fine, and then I was sent home and I went to work for my uncle. And I worked for him for 2 or 3 years, I guess, tw2o years, 2 or 3, and I did everything. I worked with the pattern makers, I worked with the cutters, I worked with the spreaders, I did spreading and cutting, I worked in the showroom and took care of customers, I bought notions, buttons, and laces and stuff, a little bit of fabric, not very much. And at the end of the day, after all the customers had came in and bought all their dresses, I worked at night and I packed all the dresses up and shipped them. So I really had a complete knowledge. One- Some place along the line, my uncle opened a small factory. We didn't have a factory where we were in Saint James. He opened up a small sewing room on 9th Avenue at 35th Street. So I went there and I ran that, I ran that for a year. We had about thirty-five operators, four pressers, and again, my job was to run that. At the end of the day I took the push buggies and I loaded the finished garments onto the push buggies, and I walked them from 9th Avenue to 7th Avenue into the stockroom. And if it was necessary, I stayed and I packed them. I did everything. So when I got into the business, there was nothing anybody could pull over my eyes because I knew everything. SC: Could we back up a little now and talk a little bit about your family background, as far back- names, dates, occupations, as far back as you know on each side of your family? BF: Okay. My mother and father were both born in the United States. My mother was a bookkeeper most of her life. She was separated from my father, and she was the breadwinner in the family. And she always worked as a bookkeeper. My father had some odd jobs and then was in ill health for a long time, and then he worked for my uncle in the cutting room. He was also a short order cook. He worked in the little restaurants that were in lobbies of the buildings in Manhattan. And he'd work at them and prepare food. And then he passed away at a young age, he was in his 40s when he passed away. SC: What was his name and do you know about when he was born? GE: So first what was both your parents', what were their names? BF: My father's name was Max and my mother's name was Elizabeth. SC: Do you know her maiden name? BF: Hoffman. Yes. We found out when she passed away, and we got her birth certificate. She passed away in her 80s, and everybody called her Elizabeth or Betty. We found out her name was Lena. SC: Where was her family from? BF: Eastern Europe. My father's family, who's from Germany, my grandmother lived in New York, his mother. And my mother's mother lived in the Bronx. I never met my two grandfathers. SC: Do you know, do you have any idea of what the families did when they were in Europe? What occupations they had? BF: No. No. I know what some cousins did but I don't know about my father. SC: Was anyone else in the garment industry at all that you know of, other than your uncle? BF: No. Just him. GE: And your uncle, is that your father's brother? BF: Yes. SC: What was his name? BF: James. Jimmy. SC: Jimmy -- Filler? BF: Filler. SC: So as far as- Those were all the jobs that you had before you came to the Lehigh Valley? BF: No. SC: Well tell me more about the jobs that you had. BF: I worked for my uncle for about two years. I guess somewhere along the line we got married, and I had a very close friend in FIT. We were very friendly. He had gotten a job in South Carolina and ended up managing three factories there. He called me one day and said how would you like to move to South Carolina? GE: And this is what, the 1960s? BF: [19]50s. Probably in '54 or '55. And we thought about it and she wasn't thrilled but we said it's a good opportunity, so we- No, we weren't married. BUNNY: We weren't married. BF: We weren't married. So I went to South Carolina and we worked in Allendale, South Carolina. I was there for three years- maybe four, five years and I was the lead company engineer. And the last year I was there, I managed one of the three factories in Bamberg, South Carolina. And one day, somebody came in -- the owners of the business lived in New York, and they called us and they said they are coming down and some people are coming from Tennessee, they would like to look at our business to see if they want to buy it. So we met all of them and obviously the head manager from the company in New York was talking and he was a very, very tough businessman. And he came to see my factory in Bamberg. We had a beautiful, beautiful lawn, beautiful shrubbery and flowering and everything else. I said to him, we are very proud of our yard and he looked at me and said how many dozens a day do you get from your yard? We knew who we were doing business with. And they bought the company. We couldn't understand why they wanted our dress company that was making house dresses. They were in the shirt business. We said why are they buying our company. At the time I was 25. My friend was 2 years older than me, he was 27. I had an assistant from FIT who was 23. Our two plant managers were in their mid-twenties besides myself and within three months we were all in Tennessee. They bought the company for us. And my friend ended up being CEO for them, and went on to a larger company and became the CEO there. And I did very well also. Not like him, but I did very well. SC: When he was the CEO of another company, do you remember any of those company names? You don't have to. BF: I'll try to remember the name of the company in [inaudible]. No, I can't remember. SC: So you were working together still? BF: Yes. SC: So they just moved it from the Carolinas to Tennessee? BF: Not the business, just us. Just the personnel. SC: Just you. Oh my gosh. BF: Within a couple of months we were running their business. SC: Oh okay, wow. BF: I was there for four and a half years and I was dating some girls in South Carolina and Tennessee and I finally rented an apartment in Nashville, Tennessee because I- and I had a trailer. The reason I had a trailer is because all of the- we had 10 factories in Tennessee and they all had trailer hookups behind them. So I ended up being a "consulting engineer" for the company and I would go to a factory for 2 or 3 months and do whatever I had to do. I trained a couple of people who were working with me to go with me. So we would go into the factory and we'd work on their make up pay. You don't know what make up pay is, so I'll explain it to you. If the minimum wage was $5, and our employees are on piece rate--they get paid by the piece--and the minimum wage was $6, if they only made $5, we had to make up the difference between the wages, the current wage- the current wage and what they were earning. At the time they decided to make me the internal engineer, we had $6 million in make up pay. And what we did is, one of the fellas, the other- the other man that came from South Carolina, he was probably the best sewing machine operator I ever saw in my whole life. He had one leg and he could sew anything. So he came with me and the third fellow he couldn't sew, but we decided we were gonna train--I went to the factory first--and I decided what needed to be worked on the most. So I decided side closing, sleeve setting, trimming, and examining. So Martin, who couldn't sew, we put him in trimming and examining. And I took side closing and Tom did sleeve setting. And we went to another factory. I looked at the factory first and said basically, and every factory you go to, everyone does it kind of the same way. Not necessarily the same in another factory, but we had in that factory we had fifty side closers. It was big, 1200 employees. So I did the side closing and Tom did the sleeve setting. So I go in and I pick out one of the ladies who looked like she was in charge. She was a little older than most of them and she seemed very strong so I went over and said, "I'm going to work with you a little bit." Oh first before that I worked three weeks at one of our other factories side closing. So I could side close like any experienced operator. I started telling her, you're stopping after one inch, then you sew four inches, then you go to the sleeve and you make three more stops to the top of the underarm. She said yeah. I said why don't you do all of that in two stops. She said, :I can't do that." I said yes you can. "I can't do that." I said well you can. She said, "You're so smart, why don't you do it?" That's what you wait for. And I sat down and did exactly what I was telling her to do, two stops, at full speed. And I did three of four garments so it wasn't just one garment. I said do you think you can try that? "... I'll try." She tried and once you get one, the rest were easy. And we did things like drilling a hole in the machine top for an extra needle so they wouldn't have to call for a needle when their needle broke. We engineered it to the end. GE: So a lot of productivity improvements. BF: Yeah. So we ended up working in three factories and then I decided I had enough and I'll tell you why. But we saved three million dollars in makeup pay and in three years we did it. SC: So this was- These factories were all sort of overseen by the investors? BF: No no. SC: No. You owned all of the, all three? BF: The company in Tennessee owned all three and I was an employee. GE: He was an employee. SC: That's what I meant. BF: My friend Howard was the general manager. SC: He was a general manager, but there were people that owned those factories. BF: Right. And because of all that staying, I decided to get an apartment in Murfreesboro. That's where I lived, where my trailer was stationed. So I went to Nashville to Percy Cohen's Furniture Company and I go in and who takes care of me, Mrs. Cohen. I was I think 26 or 27 at the time, and I'm buying furniture for my apartment. She says, I assume if you're buying this for your own apartment, you're not married? I say no. She says oh well I have a daughter. So I say- she says that she's a sophomore in college. That wasn't too bad. I said next time she comes home, tell her about me, and then call me and I'll call her. And I did. We went out some place in Nashville ; I think the Ice Capades were visiting from New York. We went for dinner. She was a very nice girl, very pretty girl, but not for me. So I came home from that, lived in my apartment for a month or two, and I said I have to get out of here. I got to go back up north and find a nice Jewish girl and get married. I came up to Philadelphia and I interviewed at Rosenau Brothers, who made little girls clothing. They had five or six factories all around Allentown. BUNNY: Cinderella. It was Cinderella, yes. SC: Oh. BF: What? SC: That was Cinderella Dress? GE: Was that the label, was it the brand? BF: Cinderella, very large company. They were the first company to use a star to advertise their clothing: Shirley Temple. So they were a very successful company, and I went to New York for the weekend before my interview, and I stayed with my mother, who lived in New York. And I didn't walk in the door and I wasn't there thirty seconds, she says your Aunt Mae has a girl for you. My Aunt Mae was a bookkeeper, probably in her 80s at this time. I spoke to her and she gave me this girl's number. I called and she said, "It was very nice of --" and everybody called her "Aunt Mae" -- "your Aunt Mae to give you my number but I'm going with somebody," she said. "But I have a younger sister." So that was the beginning. It took us about 3 years, 2 years, before we got married. BUNNY: We met in '64, married in '66. BF: So that's 2 years. BUNNY: Not quite. BF: Not surprisingly, the first date we had in New York, we went to the Central Park Zoo and sat outside the elephant cage. And then we went for Chinese food. And that was the beginning of that. I was working in- around in the five factories around this area, traveling to them on a daily basis. Every once in a while I'd go for a few days if I needed to do something. Then my company sent me to Virginia? BUNNY: Kentucky. BF: Excuse me, Kentucky. SC: So that was Cinderella that sent you there? BF: Yes. Somebody was making some clothing for them and I went there. And I was there probably for 3-4 months. Every once in a while we'd get in touch. She'd send me a card, I wouldn't return it. I came back to New York and then we started dating and here we are. SC: So you were in Allentown and the Lehigh Valley with Cinderella or were you in New York? BF: No here. I had a choice of moving to Reading or Allentown because our factories were in Reading--. BUNNY: Lansford. Lansford. Lansford. BF: Lansford, up in the Poconos. We had one, Red Hill, so I could have lived in anywhere or Allentown. BUNNY: And Carbondale. Carbondale. BF: Carbondale. So we had five factories. I went around to the five factories doing engineering. I took time studies and set piece rates. Helped people. I worked for a man who- he didn't hire me. He was the general manager, production manager, and the owner of the company hired me and sent me to work in Lansford to work with the general manager. He didn't want me around so he never talked to me very much. So I did my own thing and I had an engineer work there in the late '30s -- oh wait, '40s who was way ahead of his time. He set piece rates using time and motion study, and he had- we had a whole manual of all the piece rates. Unfortunately, at that time maybe the minimum wage was $4 an hour, so in order to earn $4 you had to do an hour's worth of work. What happened was he left the company and the geniuses that were left said that when they had a wage increase, instead of raising the price, they raised the number of pieces. So when I got there you weren't getting paid 10 cents a garment, you're getting- you had to do 2 garments and then whatever it was. And that was not too easy and everybody was converting all the time. They had big staff in the office that was converting everything. So I just took that manual and converted it to time. SC: So it was sort of a speed-up routine that they were doing and then you, and the fact that they had to produce five times as much? BF: Instead of paying $5 an hour they had to pay $6 an hour so instead of raising the value of the time, they raised the time, or they lowered the time. I don't know what they did. GE: So therefore it became very difficult for the people to meet- to get the wage that they should be getting? BF: No. It just made it difficult for the office people to convert. GE: Oh to convert how much they should pay them. BF: I spent a year redoing that whole book. And I converted everything over to time and then all the piece rates were in time. So if the minimum wage changed, it went, then we just changed time. The element, what it was worth. GE: You changed the dollar but the time stayed the same. BF: Changed the dollar. SC: Were those shops unionized or not? BF: All union. SC: All union, yes. Which union did they belong to? BF: I-- SC: The International? Yeah. BF: And I was with them for seven years, and I was getting a little unhappy with what I was doing and spending all this time driving. So I decided to find another job and I came- I was living in Allentown and went to an employment agency here. I said I'm looking for a job and he said what do you do? I said I'm an engineer and plant manager in the garment industry. He said tell me what you do. So I told him everything that I do and he said I never heard anybody that can do that much. So he got me a job in Reading with a nice gentleman whose father had owned a ladies underwear factory and his father passed away. They weren't doing too well in the ladies underwear business so he decided to take in shirts and blouses, and they weren't doing too well, so he hired me. And he- I became plant manager. They had two factories at the time. GE: What's the name of the company? BUNNY: Kelray, wasn't it? BF: Kelray Manufacturing: K-E-L-R-A-Y. GE: And do you know about what year this is? BUNNY: Well I think around '67. Jeb was born. Around '67. SC: And Rosenau was R-O-S-E-N-A-U? BF: Yes. BUNNY: I think it was two N's. SC: Was it? Yeah, I've seen it with two N's. GE: The company that you were with for seven years, was that Cinderella? BUNNY: That was Rosenau. GE: Rosenau owns it and Cinderella's just the brand? BF: Yeah, Rosenau. So I went to work for him and they didn't know anything, they only knew how to make underwear. They didn't know anything about blouses, and he had gotten- became a contractor for knit shirts. They didn't know how to make knit shirts, so I came in and I knew a lot about knit shirts. Once he got me, he started hiring a lot of people and I said to him, you can't do that, you'll have a tremendous amount of makeup -- we all know what that is -- in the factory. He said that's all right we have to hire more people so we can make more garments. The more people we hired the more makeup we had. Finally he was going to close down the big factory in Reading and keep the other one open. He was going to call the union in. I said let's make a deal. I said, I want to fire everybody but 15 people, and I guarantee in 6 months we'll be back to the same number and you'll be making money. So they called the union in and they listened to me and they believed me. We fired 45 people and I kept the only people who could sew a little bit. Because what happened when somebody couldn't sew and you hired experienced people and you put them next to each other, they couldn't sew either. So I taught the supervisor, who could sew, how to make a shirt. We started all over again and some place along the line, we were doing very well and he wanted to open a third factory. I said yeah, he says can you open another factory. I said that means I'll have to be there? And he said you could work in all the places. So I'm working in three factories now and running them and we are doing very well. When I took the job I told them that I wanted a percentage of profits. And unfortunately for him, he opened the books to me and I was looking at the books. At the end of the first year, we made $50,000, and I was expecting about a $10,000 bonus. He called me in and he said here is your bonus check. I looked at it and it was $400. I said I beg your pardon. Well we said we lost money before and we had to put money in the pension plan and we had to do this and I bought new furniture. I never specified what, he should have known ; he was just giving me the business. I said well, I'm not satisfied with that. It was Christmas break and I went home ; my mother was visiting us. He fired me. He had fired me. Before he fired me, I said to him that I could run it but we'd have to let some other people go. He had people in the cutting room that cut all the goods. His cutter and the three men that worked there couldn't- didn't drive cars. I'm just giving you an idea of the kind of help he had. The man that was in charge of shipping couldn't write and didn't read too well. So I replaced all of the personnel and we started making money. SC: This is tape number 2, Bernie Filler. And today is May 19th, 2014. So you were saying that he fired you. BF: He fired me. The following Monday, we got phone calls from a couple of people that were- one of the customers we were sewing for was Hang Ten. Are you familiar with Hang Ten? It was a very, very big company. You know, "Hang Ten" with their feet? That was their emblem with their feet on the board. They were our major supplier and we had a few other people who I had brought in who I knew. We were working for them. Within two days, two companies called me and said get your own factory, we'll give you the business. So I started looking and it took me about three months to find something, three or four months. A friend of mine introduced me to somebody who wanted to sell his contracting business. I went and talked to him and I looked around the factory, and I saw that whatever they were doing, I could do a lot better. And they were making a living. SC: This was in Allentown? BF: No. SC: This was in Reading? BF: No. Palmerton. They were in Palmerton. I walked around the factory and spoke to some of the operators and I looked and asked how many pieces a day do you do? She told me. I said to myself, that's not very many. Anyway, I talked to the owner of the business, he said well some of my girls can do more but I only want to make 300 pieces a day. I don't want them to make more than that. He said I'm happy with that and I can make a living. Or 3000 a day, whatever it is. I said oh. I looked around and I said if you can make 300, I can make 600. So I offered to buy the business and he said okay. We sat down and we made some, did some negotiations, and I'm on unemployment. One week went by, a month went by, two months go by, I call him up and said, what's going on? We either get the deal, I said I have to work, I'm unemployed. He said oh well maybe the first of April we can settle. I said okay. This was March already. So we made the deal in April, and I walked into the factory for two days and we ran out of work. So I called the company that we were working for and he said this is our slow time. He knew it was the slow time coming up, so he didn't tell me, and I bought the business then ran out of work. So I called the owner of the company, we had a very nice conversation and he said we could work something out. He started sending me work again. SC: Who was the man you bought the business from? Do you remember his name? BF: Frank-- BUNNY: With a T. BF: It may come to me before this is over. BUNNY: Tiso. Tiso, Tiso? BF: Tiso. He and his wife were in this business. So I come in and I talk- it's my business now and I go to some of the girls who I knew were good operators. I said how come you only do 50 pieces? I think you can do 300. They said, nobody asked us to. I said well okay, I'm going to start asking you to do more things. So before I was finished I started making 3,000 pieces a week in the factory. GE: So Bernie, you said that there wasn't- you were already done with the factory- you were already done with your production? Was that there was just no more, the customer didn't need any more? BF: The supplier to the factory. We were subcontractors. We needed a manufacturer to give us work. GE: So it was the manufacturer just didn't have any more need? BF: Well the first two weeks in April they ran out of work, every year, and the previous owner knew that, which is why he was putting me off. Because he was making money and he knew it was going to be bad, so. It didn't take me long. So I worked for them, went to Boston, I went to Boston to meet them. I took my wife along to meet them. We had a younger daughter at the time and they filled us up with cartons of little girls' dresses. BUNNY: Girltown -- Girltown was the name. BF: Girltown. It was a big company. GE: And this was your manufacturer? The manufacturer that you were doing the work for? Is that who Girltown is? BF: No- yes. No it wasn't the same one. But anyway, I started working and little by little we were losing our dress business, our blouse business. The first year I was in business, I worked for-- BUNNY: Personal. Personal Sports Wear. BF: Personal? No, Liz Claiborne. BUNNY: She was after. BF: Okay. Anyway I ended up working for Liz Claiborne. Liz Claiborne was a little bit better garments than I was used to making. Did I say I bought the business? GE: Yeah. BF: Okay. And I worked for Liz Claiborne for a year and did very well. Then they called me and said we are very sorry, we are moving overseas. SC: What year was this about? BF: So I worked for two other blouse companies for a short time and they moved overseas. SC: Was this in the '60s or '70s? BF: [19]70s. And I had a friend in right outside Allentown who had a garment factory that made ladies pants. He was a contractor. He worked for -- GE: Oh was this the family that -- BF: Fogelman. GE: Fogelman. The pants. They worked for Dunner, wasn't it? BF: Dunner, Alfred Dunner. SC: We just saw Maxine when we had lunch together. BF: Okay. My best friend in Allentown was her husband, who passed away. GE: Oh Arnold. Okay so you started doing pants for them. BF: Not quite. GE: May I just go back a second to make sure I'm clear. So when you went into your own business, tell me what kind of garments were you making again? BF: Blouses. GE: Blouses. Anything else or just blouses? BF: Just blouses. GE: Women's blouses? BF: Women's blouses. GE: And they were made from what kind of fabric? BF: Mostly cotton. GE: Cotton and knits. BF: No knits. Knit manufacturers were a different category. BUNNY: It was Personal Sports Wear and Breckenridge. GE: Say that again? BUNNY: Personal. They had like two hearts. It was a big label here. Personal Sportswear and then Breakenridge. GE: Okay those were his two, he had two customers. BF: He needs another contractor, would I be interested in working for him? I said I don't know anything about pants, I make blouses. He said, well you can come down here and look at and stay in my factory and ask any questions you want. I said can I bring my supervisor with me? He said sure. So the two of us went down and we spent the whole day there and we looked at every operation. When it was all over, I said is there anything here you can't do? She said no. So I told him I'd work for him. I said can you give me a hundred pairs of pants out of scrap so I can make some and be sure. So he said sure. So he cut a hundred pairs of pants for me. My supervisor made all hundred and when she was all finished, I said could you train everybody? She said sure. Now in time and motion, of course. We started working for him and I was- my accountant- I had spoken to my accountant before I switched over. He said are you going to be alright? I said yeah I set up a schedule for myself. Within four months I told him how much I would make each month and by the fourth month I would make a profit. So I did. Now I'm working for them, and I worked for them for 10 years and the last couple of years we were doing very well. I was very happy. I'm trying to think-- No, I worked for him for 10 years. GE: Is that from around the late '70s to late '80s? BF: I retired 17 years ago. GE: So 17 years ago would be 1995 or 1997. BF: [19]93 maybe. I left something out, I want to just add it. When I bought my own business and I was doing very well, they used to have a show in Atlantic City every year. A garment and textile show. So I decided that I would go. So I went there and I see my ex-employer who had fired me there. He saw me and turned and looked the other way. So I went over to him and tapped him on the shoulder to shake, I said, "Shake? I just want to thank you." He said what? I said I want to thank you for firing me. I bought my own business ; I'm making so much money I don't know what to do with it. And I turned around and walked away. He was in business three, three to four months after I left, then he went out of business. So I guess I did something right. SC: Sometimes things all pull together, don't they? BF: So that's it, then I retired. GE: So after, after doing this for ten years for Charles Dunner- BF: Alfred Dunner. GE: Alfred Dunner, did you retire because they didn't need it? Do you retire because- BF: I retired because I was old. GE: So you retired in the 1990s? BF: Yeah. Let's go back 17 years. GE: Well it's 2014 so that would be 1997. BUNNY: It was after Jeb got married, Jeb was married in '95, so it was after '95. BF: And some place along the line-- GE: Did you get to sell your business in 1997? BF: Yes. Some place along the line, I had a friend who worked at the hospitals here in town and he was responsible for buying clothing and things, like hospital gowns. He said, can you make some hospital gowns for me? I said yeah I guess I could. So he showed me one, I said yeah I can make these. I gave him a price and I made hospital gowns as a sideline for- I had a garage, and I converted the garage into a sewing room to make hospital gowns. It was a very cheap garment, so I opened up that section as non-union, my shop was union. BUNNY: Was that Mared? BF: Mared Manufacturing. I named it after my children Mara and Jed. BUNNY: And your other business was- BF: Jedmar. BUNNY: Was the main business. GE: Say it again? BUNNY: J-E-D-M-A-R Enterprises. That was his big factory. GE: How many people did you have working there at Jedmar Enterprises? BF: About 60-65. GE: And those were mostly operators, sewers? BF: Yeah. I had more when I had Mared Manufacturing. I had about another 10 people working at Mared. And one day the union came to me and said, you know you're a union shop. I said, yes. You can't run a non-union shop in the backdoor, in the garage ; you're going to have to convert to union. Meanwhile, the girls who are working back there loved it because they were getting better benefits than the other people were. I mean I was paying them, I gave them Christmas presents, I gave them bonuses, and all kinds of things. They came in and said we don't want to make it hard for you but we want that to be union. We'll give you a deal. He said you tell them it's going to be union and instead of six percent benefits, you can start with two percent. The next year you can go to three percent then five percent. He gave me like three years, and I got that going good, and guess what? They started making them overseas, so I lost that business, too. SC: Did you belong to any of the associations? BF: I belonged to the Atlantic Apparel Association. Which everybody did. GE: That was the one with Arnold Delin? BF: Yes. When I joined there were about a hundred and some odd members. By the time I left there were maybe 20 left. GE: So by the time you retired, in the late 1990s, this was pretty much gone from the area? BF: Yes. SC: And that was late. So many people were out way before that. BF: Well, that's because I was good. GE: How many years did you make the hospital gowns . . . about? BF: Maybe two years. GE: Do you remember what years? Is this the 1990s? BF: Well the children were young so it couldn't be BUNNY: They were in college. BF: No they weren't in college yet ; they were, they were, maybe they were going to college. I made them partners in my business. I split all the profits with my two children. So that by the time I had to close it down, they already had a nice- better money for college. So they were taken care of. That worked out very well. GE: What hospital- You were making hospital gowns, who was your customer? BF: All the- there was only one hospital here. GE: Really? It was Lehigh Valley Hospital? BF: Lehigh Valley. And at that time, they were really doing most of the business. They bought an awful lot of hospital gowns from us. I had an offer to make hospital gowns for the military, and I chose not to do it. SC: Was that because of dealing with the military or was that because of any issue you had with the military as far-? BF: No. It's because I had a cousin that was in charge of all the subcontractors that worked for the government. He came to a bar mitzvah and he found out I was making hospital gowns and said how would you like to make hospital gowns for the government? I said let's talk about it. It was a good deal. He would guarantee me the work. SC: You asked whether the children were a part of the business? And just one summer, when one of your sons worked. GE: Right. Would you like to share- Matt, we'll ask you if you have any questions. But would you like to share with us a little bit about the Jewish community when you came, both what you came, what it was like, and also what you've observed? You've been here now I think you said 48 years? BUNNY: Forty-eight years. But he's been here longer. GE: What has it meant to you being part of the Jewish community here, and what was that like, here in Allentown? BF: Well we got married and we wanted to have a family and wanted them to be Jewish. So we decided we would join a synagogue. So I went shopping, and I went to Beth El first and talking to them I found that they were pretty well booked up, and if I joined that synagogue I would have to sit in the back, in a different room in the back for services, for holidays because all the seats, or a good number of the seats belong to old congregants. GE: This was about what year? BUNNY: 1966-67. BF: So I went a couple blocks away and I went to K.I. And I had never belonged to a synagogue in my life. I went to K.I. and they welcomed me with open arms, they said you could sit wherever you want when you come here. You will be a regular member of the community and the congregation. And I said okay, and I joined. And we've been there since- BUNNY: 1973. GE: So 1973 is when you joined. How about your involvement with any other institutions? BF: Well I was president of Jewish Family Service for two years. I was vice president for a couple of years. And I was just on the board for a couple of years, about 6 years altogether. GE: Okay so a lot of involvement with Jewish Family Service. Any other organizations? BUNNY: You were president of Brotherhood of K.I. BF: President of the Brotherhood of K.I. Bunny: And treasurer of the synagogue. BF: Treasurer of the synagogue. GE: So you were really quite active at K.I. Still active at K.I.? BF: Yes. Not as much as my wife. My wife now volunteers there about three days a week. Does a wonderful job. MATT: Has Judaism had any impact on your business life when you were working? BF: Not really. MATT: Whether business connections or anything like that. BF: I knew a lot of people in the garment business that were Jewish, but we didn't have any- we became friendly and knew each other but that didn't affect my business at all. SC: Do you think there is a reason why people in the Jewish community became involved in the garment industry overall? BF: That's what they were doing when they came from New York. GE: So even let's say why in New York? In other words, what do you think was the association between Jews and the garment industry? BF: Because they couldn't get jobs in industries. You couldn't work for GM, you couldn't work for- so they decided to go into the garment business. And of course they ended up very, very large in the garment business and still are, still are. SC: It's nice to get independent confirmation from different people. BF: So when the war started, there were a lot of complications in New York. They couldn't get help, they couldn't get factories. A lot of them decided to come out here because there was plenty of help. So they moved here and they opened up garment factories here. They suffered a little bit when the war came along. But once they found out what they had to do, they made a lot of money. They did government work, and they did- yeah. SC: Do you see the industry as being- in Reading at certain times there were sewing factories up, in all the places that you were, do you think there's a reason those areas were so lucrative for people in the coal regions...? BF: Availability of labor. SC: Of the female labor? BF: Yeah. Actually, in the garment industry, forty or fifty years ago in New York, most of the operators were men, originally. Then the women gradually came into the business. SC: There's a cliché that where there is a silk mill, there's- silk mills were near the coal mines. That the sewing mills- sewing factories were also near the coal mines or near the steel mills or wherever. Is that overblown or do you think there is a connection there? BF: Well the reason for that I think is because the garment industry employs women and the other industries didn't. So it was a place for their wives to work. GE: So all the men were working in the coal mines or the other types of jobs and the women were working in these kinds of factories. BF: There was a lot of- what I'd want to say? When they didn't like Jews? Anti-Semitism and anti- other things in the coal regions. The reason there were so many people from the coal region who ended up in the garment industry and they opened up their own businesses because the people in the garment industry prior to that wouldn't hire people from the coal regions. GE: Can you say that again and explain it to us? BF: Yes. There was a lot of prejudice and people with backgrounds, both- whatever their backgrounds was, couldn't get jobs in a lot of factories. They were prejudiced against. There were a lot of Italians working in the Northern part, a lot of Italians. GE: You're saying that the owners of those coal mines wouldn't hire those Italians? BF: No, the other garment business. GE: Because the original garment factory owners would not hire those people. SC: Would not hire Jews. BF: No, I don't think it was the Jewish owners. It was the owners of the other factories. GE: Who was showing the prejudice? BF: They were English, they were- BUNNY: No, who were they? BF: I'm getting there. Who came to the United States before the Eastern Europeans? They were English and they were German and they lived up there and the people that opened businesses there wouldn't hire. GE: And you're saying they wouldn't hire the local people to work in their factories? BF: No. So eventually they opened up in Palmerton around the coal regions, the lower coal regions, my boss there was- came out of high school in Palmerton, and there was a lady who was kind of a supervisor running the factory. And he was a very bright guy and she taught him. He ended up being the general manager some years later. He didn't have a lot of prejudice. I'm serious. SC: We've heard that in Allentown, their- the community of people in the garment industry were mostly Jewish. And up in the Northern part near Palmerton and Catasauqua, places like that, it was more Italians. Is that true? BF: Yes. GE: And with the Italian owners, who were, were the women who worked there typically Italian or whatever ethnicity? BF: I would say it started out, but then they didn't have enough people and they started hiring other people. Eventually it disappeared and with the Atlantic Apparel Association make sure of everything. MATT: I have a couple of follow up questions going back to your uncle's factory in New York that you were talking about. Do you feel like your uncle was your biggest inspiration to kind of lead you on the path that you ended up following? BF: No. The only inspiration he gave me was he gave me knowledge. My mother said to me, stay with your uncle, some day the business will be yours. He was never married. When he was 55 or 60 years old he got married and married a very wealthy woman and shut the business down. MATT: She shut it down before you had the opportunity to take it over. BF: Yes. So I did the right thing. GE: But you did, the good part was you learned the business. MATT: And it was for that reason that you decided to go to FIT and not just a regular college? BF: Yes, because I was working for my uncle and I liked what I was doing. It turned out that I was very good at what I did. MATT: How old were you when his wife ended up shutting down the business? Or what year and how old were you? BF: Probably in my early twenties, two years after I got out of the army. And everything worked out very well. He was very happy ; he married a nice woman. She took very good care of him when he got older, and I didn't have to worry about it. But I, I- My specialty was engineering, time and motion studying piece rates, methods work. I was very, very good at that. GE: Tell us what you mean by methods work. BF: Well a girl- somebody came to work for me and I didn't know if she could sew. She sat down at the machine and I knew exactly how I would tell her to pick up this one and over that one. I knew this. And she sat down and put two pieces together and shook her head no. She did it again and shook her head no. Then she did it the way I would have told her the third time and she shook her head yes. That's what I did. When you walked into my factory, let's say we had 6 sleeve setters, 6 pocket setters, if you came and you looked at them, all 6 would be doing them exactly the same way. SC: That's efficiency. GE: Yes, I was going to say. That's efficiency and standardization. SC: Yes. This is going to go off in a second. Okay, so you said you were good at what you did. Do you have a good example of that? BF: I had a lady who did the payroll for the executives of the company, plus all the contractors. So I called the one day I said, "You know, I come right by the factory, could I drop my bill off on Friday and pick it up on Tuesday? And she said, "Absolutely." So I said okay. So I dropped it off on Friday and I pick it up Tuesday morning, so instead of waiting a whole week, I got it in the next day. And one day she said to me, "How many people you have working for you?" I said, "60." She looked at me and she says, "You're doing all this billing with 60 people?" I said, "Yes." She said "Oh," so I knew I was doing good. SC: And you had a question? MATT: So I know you were saying before you were in a lot of states -- Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee. For the most part, the companies that ended up buying your products, your finished products at the end, were they mostly from the specific regions within the states or from all over the country? BF: Oh no, they were from all over the country. They were all big corporations in New York, they sold all over. Alfred Dunner is probably the best ladies sportswear company below the designers, and they sell all over the country. You go into the major department stores in New York, they have an Alfred Dunner department. GE: Here, too. BF: Yes, here, too. And of course, they made very good pants. That's what I made. SC: The best pants. So do you have any other questions? GE: You know, I think- SC: I think we hit them. You were great! Minimal questioning, maximum information -- it was great! But I have two- three. I have three questions. No, two questions -- we talked about the community. So my first question is, what has made you feel the most artistic in your life? And I mean that in that sort of metaphoric sense of creativity, completion, you know, sense of satisfaction in your life. BF: Well, my wife's the only one in the family with musical talent, and she inspires me. As a matter of fact, on June 20th, she's going to become a bat mitzvah. And we're looking forward to that. And of course, now my grandchildren inspire me -- in very small ways. SC: And what do you value most in life? BF: Well, other than the work that I did all those years, my family. GE: And one other question I was wondering, in terms of the community, 50 years ago, this community had much more industry and small industry. Now there's much, much less of it. How do you think that has impacted the community? The broad community -- and actually, the broad community and maybe more specific- and then two things, the broad community and then also how about the Jewish community? Do you think the Jewish community has been impacted by this? BF: I don't think so. Because, as I started saying, the Jewish community couldn't do other things. Today they can. So they're not as impacted by not having garment factories. GE: And how about the broad community? Do you think our community just now has other things? Is it in any way been diminished or maybe it's even stronger or better because we don't have those factories? What do you think? Any thoughts? BF: It doesn't affect me, I don't think it affects other people. Do you? And, you know, and we've lost a lot of people who wanted to work in garment factories, they just don't want to do it anymore. And their next generation doesn't want to do it, so something would have happened anyway. SC: Okay, thank you. MATT: Just one last, quick question. Aside from having to move around a lot, going to the different factories around the country, what do you feel like your biggest challenge was professionally, aside from that? Like, internally within the factories that you had to work in? BF: Well, owning my own business, and being successful, and that's what I was happy to do. BUNNY: That was your biggest challenge? GE: Was that a big challenge because of the risk? BF: It was. First thing I had to do when I decided to buy a business was go to the bank and borrow money. I had never done that in my life. And fortunately, my mother, who at that time was in her eighties and living alone in New York -- well not exactly alone, she had a boyfriend -- but she had some money saved and I said to her I could use some money to buy my business. You loan me your money, I'll take care of you. You won't have a need for anything, whatever expenses you have, I'll take care of it. So she said okay, and she gave me a nice sizable amount of money, helped me buy the business. And then I started- that was to buy the business, now I needed to go to the bank to buy machinery, the money for machinery because going from blouses to pants was- a lot of it was different machinery. First of all, I never had pressing machines with blouses, we had a steamer. Steamed it. Never had pressing machines but we had to buy pressing machines to press the pants. MATT: Were there certain challenges, depending on what state your factory was actually operating in? Maybe based on laws or anything in that state, preventing anything or was it for the most part, all the same, no matter what state you're in, when it came to buying the actual equipment in the factory? BF: That was a national thing. Most of the people who bought machinery from up until about the 90s, was Singer and Union Special, and they were made in the United States. Then there- GE: I'm sorry, it's what company? BF: Union Special and Singer. And then the Japanese came in with Juki and they took over the- pretty much most of the sewing and the factories. Just a better machine. GE: So they really replaced the other. BF: Yeah, they replaced the Singers, the Union Specials. One place, okay, one place when I was working in Tennessee, my boss sent me to Portugal for a month. He said there was somebody who wanted to make some housecoats for us, and I said- and he said he doesn't know anything about making housecoats, want to go show him? So I said, okay. And I was there for a month, and I like to say that for a month I was God. Because in Portugal, I walked in, I went to see the sewing company in Lisbon and I said, "I'm going to need to buy some sewing machines." And so, "What do you need?" And I gave him this list for about 20 machines, and he looked at me and said, "I haven't got this many machines." He said, "It'll take me a couple of weeks to get them." I said okay -- I mean, they didn't have it. And you know what a cutting table is? We had a- the factory that I went to, the man was making pillowcases, so his cutting table was about six yards long -- you know, pillowcases. And we needed a 14 yard table for the house dresses. So I said, "Okay, we have to buy some lumber. What's the cheapest lumber to buy here?" And they said, "Mahogany!" So we built the mahogany cutting table, probably the only one in the world, and it worked fine. And when I came from New York to go to the factory, I brought a bunch of attachments that you put on the sewing machine. One was a cord piper. You know what cord piping is? SC: When you put the cording-- GE: Around the edge. BUNNY: Like this. BF: Yeah, that's cord piping. So there's an attachment that you put the piping around it, fold it, and it pushes it through. And the pipe- there's a tube, the piping goes in the middle, and you do it all in one time. So I get there and I take out this quart pipe -- and nobody spoke English. But the plant manager was Portuguese, but he was born in South Africa and raised in South Africa. And he was a typical Englishman, wore a bowler and cane, and the spats, the whole works, my age. And he spoke English, of course. So I said, "We should start with the supervisor." And I said, "Well how did you make the samples?" [She had] made samples. She said she took the piping and sewed it to one piece of the collar and then she took the other piece of the collar, sewed it to the other piece of the collar that had piping on it. Three operations. So I took out my phone, I put it on the machine. SC: Time management. BF: I was God. I was there for a month and I really hated to go. But I did. I was offered a job there by somebody else and I just couldn't do it to my company. I was working in the factory and the guy who owned the factory was in the textile business in the United States, and he also had plants all over the world and he traveled around the world -- and this is the truth -- once a week, once a week. Go to New York, go to England, go to China, go to Japan for silk and go to- every week, okay? And he came home from Portugal, that was his last stop where he was going around the world, and flew back to New York. And while he was in Portugal, he had two factories in Belgium. The managers would come down and meet with him while he was in Portugal and he would have been- and again, if he could get there, we got there- I flew over with him. I got there like seven o'clock in the morning. Have you flown internationally? Customs? Plane landed, car pulled up to the airplane. We got off the airplane into the car and left -- no customs. I mean, so it was very- Anyway, this guy- we got to know each other in the months he was going, he came to visit once a week. And when he was leaving, he said, "How would you like to work for me?" I said, "what would you want me to do?" He said, "I want you to run this factory and the one in Brooklyn- Belgium, and you can live wherever you want, I'll give you a car and you'll be in charge. It was a great opportunity. I was single at the time. SC: That's what I was going to ask. BF: I was single at the time. BUNNY: "B.B. -- Before Bunny." BF: I liked working for my boss. I didn't want to do that to him. And I'm doing a good job there and he appreciated it. So I turned down the job. It would have been interesting, but he wouldn't expect me, expected me to live like he did, I mean, I'd probably be working 43 hours a week -- a day -- and traveling back and forth all the time. It wasn't for me, but just [to] tell you how important this guy became. He flew into Portugal one morning and he had a return trip at one o'clock in the afternoon back to New York. Flies into Portugal. He goes to the airport and he's a couple of minutes late. And-- What airlines was it? BUNNY: Pan Am, I think he came. BF: Pan Am? I guess he says you can't do this. They say, "I'm sorry, sir. We gave your seat away." He said, "I beg your pardon?" "We gave your seat away. You're not here." He said, "I'm here. The plane is still here. I'll sit in the toilet." "No, I'm sorry, sir. You can't get on the plane." And they wouldn't let him on the plane. So he went back to the factory, called his lawyer in New York and said, "I'm calling Pan Am and telling them I'm chartering a consolation to take me to New York, and they're going to pay for it." His lawyers said don't do it. They won't do it, they won't pay. But after that, when he wanted to go somewhere, he picked me up originally at one of the garment factories with his own private twin engine plane. And we flew to- we had to get to Atlanta to catch a plane to New York. And we were in Georgia. And his pilot called and he said, "We can't go- can't get to Atlanta in time." "How much time we're going to miss by?" He said maybe 15, 20 minutes. He said, "Tell them to wait for me." He got to the airport. There was a car, there was a plane sitting in the middle of the runway. We got on and they took off. So he carried you, you could travel around the world once a week. He had leverage. He was very nice. He was married, I don't know why-- Yeah. SC: You know and it's nice to know that- that's exciting but you kept your sense of who you were, who is really nice. BF: How much more could I be then God? SC: That's true, that's true. BUNNY: That's a good way to end, isn't it? SC: Thank you. Interview with Bunny Filler, May 19th, 2014 GAIL EISENBERG: So maybe Bunny can sit there? We want to hear a little about your family. MATT: How much time is left on the--? SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Not a whole lot but we'll go through until we get to the end. BERNIE FILLER: She'll have to apologize for when she tells you what her father did. SC: So would you state your full name, when you were born, and where you grew up? BUNNY FILLER: Well I'm not gonna tell you when I was born. SC: Okay, that's fine. BUNNY: My name is Helen Filler, but nobody calls me that and nobody knows me by that name. My name is Bunny. I got that nickname many years ago when I was a camper and it stuck. GE: What was your maiden name? BUNNY: Levin. L-E-V-I-N. Levine. Some people call me Lev-een, here they call me Lev-ine or Lev-in. But it's Levin. I was born in the Bronx at- or actually, I was born in Manhattan at Lenox Hill Hospital. I was raised in the Bronx. My mother and father -- my mother's name is Frieda Thelma Kraft, no relation to Kraft Foods unfortunately. My father's name is Julius Alexander. My son is named after him. And my grandparents on my father's side -- my paternal grandfather was a Yankee, which is very unusual. He was born here. My paternal grandmother was born in Lithuania and they met here in this country. My paternal grandfather- GE: Do you know any names? So like you're- BUNNY: Harry. I'm named after Harry, that's where Helen came from. Harry, and my grandmother's name was Lena Platt and her family was- wound up in Harrisburg. GE: Okay, and Lena Platt- she was the one, they were from Lithuania. BUNNY: She was from Lithuania originally, yeah. GE: And no relation to Murray [Platt]? BUNNY: No. GE: And Harry, of course, that's Lev-in. BUNNY: Levin. GE: Levin. Okay. And he was born in the U.S. BUNNY: Right. My maternal grandparents were Lillian and Benjamin Kraft. Her maiden name, I remember, was Lillian Bernstein. And I'm not quite sure -- Poland, I think? I can't come up with the exact [location], but I think they came from Poland and I think maybe one came from Russia. I'm not one hundred sure. GE: All those places were the same anyway. BUNNY: Yeah. My paternal grandfather was in the meatpacking business. GE: Your paternal grandfather -- that's Harry? BUNNY: Harry worked at Swift and Company, I think. And my maternal grandfather was a millinery, a millinery, a milliner. Yes, that's it. He made hats. He made hats, yes. My mother had- there were three sisters and a brother. My father had one brother, [unclear]. GE: Three sisters and a brother, okay. I'm sorry, your father had one brother? BUNNY: One brother, younger brother who was a dentist. Robert, Uncle Bob. GE: Your grandfather was in the millinery. Did he make the hats, did he work at a little factory? BUNNY: I don't know. I just know he was in millinery, that's what my mother told me. And unfortunately, she's not here to help me. I have lots of questions now that I should have asked many years ago and didn't. GE: Do you know about when your parents were born? BUNNY: Oh, yes, my mother was -- this was unusual -- my mother was born in 1905. And I don't know if you know what the word shanda is, meaning in Yiddish it means "it's a shame". She married my father, who was born in 1909. And in that generation, you did not marry a woman who was older than you. She was- my grandmother was very upset. "Take good care of my son," she said to my mother on their wedding night. She thought my mother was a hussy. BF: And she was a redhead. BUNNY: And she was a natural born redhead, yes. And I had a great grandfather, we called them the Bubba [Yiddish for grandmother] and the Zayde [Yiddish for grandfather], they spoke no English whatsoever. My Zayde, I remember, he was in his 90s -- he had this long beard, and I would sit on his lap and pull his beard, and he would get hysterical laughing. My parents were so embarrassed. I don't know, I don't remember their name. GE: Was that. . . BUNNY: No, that was Lena Platt. Also, he was Platt, but I don't know- I only knew them as the Bubba and the Zayde. But their name was Platt. GE: So that was Lena Platt's- BUNNY: Mother and father. GE: Oh my goodness. Wow. So therefore the whole family did come. They were in the- they did come to the U.S. BUNNY: Yeah. I was lucky I had grandparents. I didn't know my grandfathers, they died before I was born. But I knew my great-grandfather. Ain't that unusual? My kids also never knew their grandfather -- my father died when he was forty-six, so that was, that was pretty sad. SC: What kind of work did they all do, besides the ones that you talked about? BUNNY: My father had also started to work for Swift and Company, which was a meat packing plant. And he bought his own business, called Merion Provision Company -- I still have pencils. M-E-R-I-O-N. Merion Provision Company. And he manufactured pure pork sausage, which made my mother crazy because my mother was raised as an Orthodox Jew. She no longer was, and he would bring home his sausage, and my sister and I would devour it -- breakfast sausage, not like these big links, and not the patties, they were just the links. And he made a very good living. My mother taught school. And then when my father- BF: Wasn't she a milliner to start out? No, she wasn't? BUNNY: No, my mother was a schoolteacher. She was one of the first women to graduate from college in her circle of friends. None of the women went to college. She graduated from Hunter College. And she was fluent in German, she took German. GE: Wasn't Hunter College free then? BUNNY: I don't know. Probably. GE: New York was very progressive that way where it was, like, free. Everybody got in. BF: Probably. SC: Yeah, but it was all women. GE: Hunter? I never heard that. SC: Was it all women? BUNNY: It used to be an all women's school. GE: Really? I never heard that. BF: Yeah. My sister went there, too. BUNNY: But she- my mother was a very bright lady but she stayed home, finally, after my father got his business going and became successful. Then she stayed home. I don't know what else to tell you. GE: But then your dad, you're saying, died young. BUNNY: My father had a heart attack when he was 46 years old. Got sick on a Thursday and died on a Sunday and it was devastating. Devastating. I was very close to my father, he was a- we're lucky. You don't choose your parents, you're born into- and some people don't have such wonderful parents and you can't help it. I was very, very blessed, very, very blessed -- had a wonderful sense of humor. And interesting, one of my aunts said that Bernie reminds, reminded her of my dad, which I thought was kind of interesting, with the sense of humor and everything. GE: How old were you? BUNNY: I was 16 when he died. SC: So where have you worked in your life? BUNNY: Well, I went to, I went to P.S. 11, went to William Howard Taft High School, and then I went to Boston University. And I became an early childhood- I was an early childhood major, and I taught kindergarten in New York for five years. And then my Prince Charming came and we got married, and we came to- and he helped me find a job here. He called places for me because I was still in New York, and I got a job in the Allentown School District. Otis Rothenberg I think interviewed me and he wanted to give me a first-grade position, and I looked at him square in the eyes -- I don't know how I got the nerve -- and I said, "I'm going to be a brand new bride. I don't know a soul in Allentown. I don't know anything. But I am a wonderful kindergarten teacher, and I've been doing it for years. I really don't want something new." He went and looked up something. He said, "Fine, you can teach kindergarten at Lehigh Parkway." He interviewed me there and I had to meet him someplace else and we said goodbye and I didn't move. And he said, "Do you have a problem, honey?" And I said, "Yes. I don't know how to get to my fiance's apartment from here." I only knew how to get from South Mountain. And he said, "Follow me." This is the superintendent of schools, and he took me to Bernie's apartment. That's how I started. And I only taught one year because- I was in New York for five, but I only taught one because I got pregnant, and I gave birth to Jed in September of 1967. So I finished school half the year in June and then I stayed home, and then Mara was born nineteen months later. And then about two years later, I went over to the Center -- they did not have a music program for their three year olds, and I said I'll do it for free. I'll just sit and play songs for them. And so, fine, they hired me. What could be better than not paying me anything? And I've been working for nothing ever since! And I went to the Day School, and they don't pay too well either! In any event, I stayed at the Center for a long time and then somebody approached me at the Day School and asked me if I would do the music program there. And this is somebody who does not read Hebrew or speak Hebrew, but I taught a lot of Jewish music there. You learn it. It's not difficult. And then while I was there, the principal, Barry Cohen, asked me if I would begin a pre-kindergarten program that they never had one. And I said I could try. And so I started there in 1980- I want to say '83 or '84. Something like that. And I started that pre-K program that's there now. I was there for 27 years. GE: So really, just 'til a couple years ago. BUNNY: I stopped teaching in 2010. What'd you say? BF: I said that was nice. BUNNY: Yeah in 2010, that was not a good way to leave. But anyway, I loved, loved, loved working there. I taught four year olds and I was very blessed because I could teach the whole program. I taught secular as well as Judaic. I taught them, you know, all about Judaism. I taught them the Hebrew alphabet. That's how I learned to read Hebrew, like a first grader. But it was a wonderful- it was my life, it was my life, aside from my husband and my wonderful children. My husband supported me three-hundred percent. He loved the fact that I was there. He came to every program I ever did. He made the costumes, talking about his factory, he made all our costumes for us. We used to do Purim and we used to do parody shows. And he did Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. He did the music, really did all of it. He made all the costumes for us. He's been a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful husband. He really has been, I'm very lucky. SC: And the Center has been so successful. BUNNY: Excuse me? SC: It's so successful. BUNNY: Yeah, it was, it was really good. BF: As a result of her teaching there, to this day, I'm still- she used to introduce me to her children. And to this day now, because the parents are now grandparents, they still call me "Mr. Bunny." BUNNY: "Mara Bunny and Mr. Bunny". SC: Oh, I love it. BUNNY: So I left there in 2000- I left the day school in 2010. And it was a very difficult decision and a difficult year. And then I kind of found my way into K.I. again. I mean, we've always been active, but now I volunteer there. He said three days a week, I'm really there almost five because I'm chairing this ad book, so I'm trying to put together this home journal, and it's not an easy job. It's a wonderful- I mean, I just love, love being there. And that's been, you know, fulfilling my life. SC: How do you see the community, the wider community and the Jewish community, changing over time? And Allentown, perhaps? BUNNY: Well Allentown has grown tremendously. When we first came here, I had to go down to King of Prussia- not King of Prussia, Plymouth Meeting to buy clothes for my little boy. I mean, there was nothing -- there were two shops here, the Children's Shop and I think Clymer's Carousel. And there was nothing else, there was no mall, there was nothing. So it's grown tremendously that way. You know, I've seen a lot of people coming in from the area, a lot of transplants here. So that's changed. How do I see the whole community? It's not just the community, it's society. Everything is very different today. Sometimes I wish I could go back in time. I think, you know, we've become a little bit too casual and a little bit too disrespectful. The kids, adults as well. I saw it in parents as well as children. And it's... it's--. It makes me sad, it really makes me sad, and what makes me feel good is my kids, who are only in their 40s, think the same thing. So it doesn't make me feel like I'm an old lady, like, "Oh, she's from, you know, three generations ago." It's different. It's just- it's very different and it makes me sad. SC: So what do you value in life? This is going to beep soon, that's why I-- BUNNY: What do I value in life? What Bernie said, I mean, I value my family, my husband first and foremost, my children, my grandchildren, my synagogue that I have seen growing now. We've been through some very hard times and it's now coming back thanks to a wonderful, wonderful rabbi. And I just you know, I just think it's really, really important. It's been our social life. And I value my friendships. As he said, my synagogue has been such an integral part of my life, all of a sudden at this old age, I decided I was going to become a Bat mitzvah all by myself. No classes, no nobody else, just me. And it's been a very, very surreal but incredibly fulfilling experience. I never would have dreamed this. And I never belonged to a synagogue growing up. Nothing. So that makes it even more special for me. It really does. SC: And what makes you feel the most creative, artistic, satisfied? I mean, I think you sort of said that, but anything else? BUNNY: I mean, I don't look at myself as a creative individual. I don't- I mean I don't-, well when I think of creativity, you know, I think of artistic, making things, and coming up with all these wonderful ideas. Sometimes I am, I gave him the most wonderful 80th birthday party, and I'm not patting myself on the back. We did it together and it was fabulous, fabulous. It was a New York Giants theme. And it was just -- we did all kinds of creative things and that gave me a lot of satisfaction. SC: But teaching kindergarten, that's artistry. That is artistry at its best. BUNNY: I just absolutely- well, the four year olds- yes, I will say I was creative in that. I really was. GE: And you were doing it for 26 years. BUNNY: And I was doing art projects -- which to me were hands-on, but I wasn't allowed to call it that because that part wasn't creative if you give the kids directions on how to do something. It was to teach them how to follow directions, not just for their creativity. You know, if I'd say, paint the sun yellow, the art teacher would yell at me and say, "The sun can be any color." I said, "Yes, but I want them to follow directions. Later on, I will tell them they can do whatever they want with it." And so we had a lot of hands-on stuff. And I, I just- that's what I miss most of all, these four year olds. They were just beautiful, beautiful people, beautiful people. So I'm a big child. I just love children, just love children. Or babies, I love them when they're new. I just- that's what I like. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Bernie and Bunny Filler, May 19th, 2014
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Bernie Filler talks about how he grew up in the Bronx, worked part-time for his uncle who was in the textile business and attended FIT after high school. After graduating and being in the service, Bernie worked as a manager and an engineer at several large apparel factories, first in the South, then in Pennsylvania, before buying his own factory in Palmerton, PA. At the time, the factory made women’s blouses. After a while, Bernie became a subcontractor to Tama Manufacturing making pants for Alfred Dunner. Bernie worked with Tama Manufacturing making pants for Alfred Dunner until Bernie retired in the late 1990s.
Bunny Filler talks about her childhood growing up in the Bronx, attending Boston University, teaching kindergarten in New York and then meeting her “Prince Charming” (Bernie) and coming to Allentown. When Bunny’s younger child was a toddler, Bunny began a music program at the JCC Nursery School and later at the Jewish Day School. A few years later, Bunny began a pre-kindergarten program at the Jewish Day School, which she taught for twenty-seven years.
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LVTNT-13
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2014-05-19
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Title
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
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Arnold Delin
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-01.xml
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5.4 June 16, 2014 Arnold Delin June 16, 2014 LVTNT-01 56:21 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Arnold Delin Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 DelinArnold_20140616.mp4 1.0:|19(2)|40(3)|65(4)|82(14)|101(14)|118(6)|131(2)|152(4)|169(2)|190(2)|207(2)|224(12)|245(7)|266(13)|291(5)|312(3)|335(10)|360(3)|387(2)|404(13)|427(10)|450(9)|475(4)|500(8)|523(2)|544(11)|563(12)|584(14)|607(9)|634(3)|653(17)|672(15)|691(9)|714(12)|745(8)|770(18)|793(3)|816(2)|837(15)|862(2)|879(9)|904(8)|933(14)|962(3)|985(4)|1014(6)|1047(13)|1072(5)|1103(2)|1140(17)|1165(2)|1188(5)|1207(15)|1234(12)|1261(12)|1288(6)|1293(10) 0 https://youtu.be/fqCkDHOpX74 YouTube video 0 Family History SC: Today is June 16, 2014 ; interview with Arnold Delin. Could we go back, how much you know about your family as far back as you know? It gives us a pattern to see how you got to where you were.
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 ; AD: I can tell you where my parents came from. They were refugees from Poland and from that area. I don’t exactly know where, but within the area of where the Jewish people emigrated from Poland. Somehow our relatives brought them here, some settled in Brooklyn. Some settled in Massachusetts, some in this neck of the woods. 
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 ; SC: Do you know any of their names and anything about what they did?
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 ; AD: My father was a peddler I guess, whatever work he was able to get.
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 ; SC: What was his name?
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 ; AD: Simon Delinsky. Then when I got a job in this country, I worked on Wall Street for a sponge company, I think I told you that, and actually they were German Jews and the Jewish word is poshnisht [Yiddish for it shouldn’t happen], they thought certain things about the Jewish people, so they shortened my name to Delin. It was more Americanized. 0 593 Work Experiences SC: So did you have any other jobs besides the grocery store and the sponge company? 
 ; 
 ; DD: Yes he did. He got a job when we got married, within a year I was pregnant. He quit the sponge company because they wanted him to travel and he didn’t want to be on the road. So, he got a job at the post office. He worked nights. And then he got a job ; he opened up a fruit store. I had a girlfriend whose brother was in that business and they went out together. 
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 ; AD: 23rd Street, Jewish neighborhood. 
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 ; DD: One day, I was pregnant and went down to keep him company, and a woman came into the store and she said to him, check the melons. 
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 ; AD: She wanted a super ripe melon.
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 ; DD: He went into the back room and brought it out to her. I said what are you doing? He said I took it to the ripening room. He took a hammer and hit it.
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 ; AD: That was on Avenue J, Ocean Avenue. You got the train coming to New York.
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 ; DD: And then my father was a contractor. He made ladies blouses and clothes. He needed help in the place, so Arnold came down and worked for him. 
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 ; SC: In Pennsylvania?
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 ; DD: We were in Brooklyn and my father had two shops there. But then he went bankrupt. 0 898 Contractors vs. Manufacturers SC: Were these contractors in these years that you were working for? 
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 ; DD: They were manufacturers. In those days they were all manufacturers. There was no such thing as contractors.
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 ; AD: Actually, the definition of a manufacturer is they did not have salespeople. The salespeople would get the merchandise. Sometimes it was a combination ; sometimes the manufacturer did have people who would sell for them. 
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 ; DD: The difference between a manufacturer and a contractor. A manufacturer buys the fabric, sells the fabric, and gets the fabric, designs it. A contractor sews. 
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 ; SC: So there wasn’t a differentiation back then?
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 ; DD: In the first early days, there was no such thing as a contractor. Everybody was a manufacturer. Everybody manufactured. Then, they found out that it would be more profitable for them if they had somebody do all the sewing and they didn’t have the headaches of the workers, and the labor force and so on. They would farm it out to someone else and say, “here is my fabric, and here is the pattern.” Some places did the cutting. 0 1042 Clothing Outlets DD: In fact, Arnold eventually became a contractor. They would cut and if there was any fabric leftover, they would make what they call overcuts. And they would sell it themselves to make some pocket money. That’s how that market came about. You know, discounted clothes. Because the contractors, whatever excess they had, they would sell. 
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 ; SC: Outlets?
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 ; DD: Well the factories, they would open up the door and you could come in and buy a couple of shirts. I remember one woman came in, she was a very fancy lady, and she looked at the label and she didn’t like the label. So Arnold said to her, “where do you usually shop?” She shopped in Saks Fifth. So he went back and took a label and put it on the blouse. She was very happy. Then there was another industry, a trucking industry that just—
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 ; AD: It was interstate trucking ; they controlled all the trucking. A certain element that controlled it. A certain element. They would deliver the goods to the contractors. They would deliver it one day then ship it back at night and pick up the finished garment and bring it back to the manufacturer. The manufacturer shipped it. 0 1194 Unionizing DD: And then after, there were so many contractors spread out in Pennsylvania. They all ran to Pennsylvania because the unions. The manufacturers were unionized in Manhattan. The contractors were just mom and pop opening up a shop with sewing machines and they started sewing. 
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 ; AD: Then they start to organize the workers. So then the factories became organized. Some ran away, some went from the North to the South, where unions weren’t accepted at that time. Eventually they did. Then the imports started coming when the manufacturers found it was cheaper to have goods made overseas. Then that’s how it started expanding from overseas to America.
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 ; DD: When they had all the contractors that started, then they realized that they needed a voice to speak as one. So there were four hundred members at one time. Instead of each one making a contract with Joe for a dollar and this one for 50 cents, they had one voice and spoke in unison.
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 ; AD: The unions started to organize the workers. Once they organized the workers, they had the manufacturers by the you know what, because if they didn’t become a union shop, they couldn’t get their goods made. It was always a fight between non-union and union. The shirt companies were in the union. They were in the amalgamated union, the dress and ladies sportswear and stuff like that. That’s the type of merchandise. And they were in the International Ladies Garment. 0 1471 Dolores' Father's Business SC: What was the name of the dress factory and the children’s goods?
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 ; AD: I’m trying to think of what it was.
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 ; DD: I too don’t remember my father’s business, what it was. It was located in Brooklyn and he worked for a company by the name of Judy Kent. 
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 ; AD: They were amalgamated.
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 ; DD: They made children’s, when I say children’s, I’m talking about 1 year olds, 2 year olds. They made little skirts and blouses like doll clothes. I remember my daughter was born then and he brought home a little skirt, all accordion pleating and little blouses. That was my father. Judy Kent wanted my father to move to Pennsylvania because that was a trend. My father was in Brooklyn. His factories were in Brooklyn and they wanted my father to move to Pennsylvania. And my father said, “Pennsylvania?”
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 ; AD: They wanted to run away from that time. The unions weren’t organized yet in Pennsylvania. So one thing led to another then eventually we moved. 0 1595 The Delin Family Moves to Pottsville, PA DD: We looked in the papers and there was a job in Schuylkill Haven in a lingerie firm and he came out and he called me up. He said they’ll give me the job, I have a job, but they won't give me a contract. What shall I do? I said take the job, because you’re so terrific that we’ll be okay there. So that’s how we came here. 
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 ; AD: Manufacturers didn’t want to commit themselves because they were still running away from the union. So one thing led to another... So I worked there during the week and came home on weekends. Then enough was enough, either you move—
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 ; DD: Well I was pregnant with our second child, and I didn’t want to make the move until I had the baby. So he would commute—for a year he commuted, and then-
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 ; AD: Friday afternoon I would catch the bus and come home and then to get back to the factory I would go back late Sunday evening to open up the factory early Monday morning to make sure they got started properly. I lived at the YMCA, 5 dollars or 6 dollars a week. It was a different type of living. I met a lot of non-Jews, as I got involved with the community.
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 ; SC: And that was here already in Pottsville?
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 ; DD: He was here in Pottsville ; he lived in Pottsville. The job was in Schuylkill Haven which is just a little town nearby and he lived at the Y. He ate at the local restaurant where he met the Jewish people. He had friends here before I came, he had made some acquaintances. 0 2044 Arnold's Factory AD: Peekaboo. That was mine.
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 ; DD: What was the name of the factory that hired you, do you remember their name? The one that hired you, the lingerie firm that hired you? … It will come to you.
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 ; GE: So Peekaboo, is that what you named it?
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 ; AD: The name of the company, I named it.
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 ; GE: Okay, and tell us about the kinds of products you made there.
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 ; AD: We made ladies lingerie. Like petticoats, slips.
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 ; DD: And then you made blouses.
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 ; AD: Then they switched to blouses, ladies blouses, children’s blouses.
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 ; DD: When he would go into the market, he would see, he would go to the manufacturers, and he would try to sign up any manufacturer to see what they needed, what he could sew…
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 ; GE: What he could sew and what they needed.
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 ; DD: Right, so it would be lingerie, it would be blouses.
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 ; GE: Okay, and your workers were flexible enough that you were able to do that.
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 ; AD: Well a sewer was a sewer. We trained, we had a forelady. Different products had different types of sewing. And fabric was different also. 0 2271 Arnold's Relationship with Him Employees GE: Okay okay, so you really didn’t have, really didn’t do that, okay. And do you want to tell us about your relationship with your employees?
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 ; AD: They worked for me. I mean either they produced or they didn’t produce. We had a good relationship. There were mostly non-Jewish people, all non-Jewish. Once in a while, you might have someone Jewish who was a sewer. We had a good relationship, I mean, once you get organized with the union, you follow the union contract and that was it.
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 ; GE: And I think you said that you were the first one locally to hire someone who was not white, a Black person.
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 ; AD: Yes, that came and I had one working for me. She was an excellent worker, and she had a couple of- her sister moved to the area and brought her friend along, and one became three. And some of my workers were not too happy because I hired a black person. But they got along once they got to know them, they were excellent workers and they produced, broke the ice so to speak. And another factory hired a black—there weren’t that many blacks in the Lehigh area. 0 2399 Business Moving South GE: While you were in the business, as the years went on, because it was going South, because a lot of the time...was it getting harder and harder?
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 ; AD: As the unions started organizing the factories, they couldn’t compete so the manufacturer, who was still non-union, saw you were not giving goods to those who were not union-shop, he started opening up shops down South. And there’s one open, another followed, followed, and then it was a lot of non-union manufacturers down South, and that’s how a lot of the work fell to the way, from the union shops to the non-union shops.
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 ; DD: The trend was after they saturated Pennsylvania, and then- with non-union shops, then when the union came in to organize them, now the manufacturers had to look for another way out, so they started going down South where there weren’t any non-union shops.
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 ; AD: New England had a lot of union shops, and everyone filtered like she just said, they filtered away from the North to the South.
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 ; GE: Right, right. The manufacturers that you produced for, were they always union?
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 ; AD: To have a union shop, it had to be union manufacturers.
 ; 
 ; GE: Okay, and as the years went on, I guess you opened it in the ‘60s, ‘70s, something like that? Did it start becoming, was it noticeably that it was harder and harder each year to get enough business?
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 ; AD: We were able to get the business, even some of the non-union manufacturers, when they wanted—if you made a good quality garment, they would pay the price. They were flexible. 0 2589 The Industry Moves Overseas DD: It got really bad when they started shipping overseas. 
 ; 
 ; GE: That was the ‘70s then, correct?
 ; 
 ; DD: Yeah, and when they moved and started working overseas that’s when it really got bad and that’s when they didn’t, the manufacturers no longer made the fabric here. They bought the fabric overseas, had the fabric shipped to a factory overseas, had it cut, and then they would ship them the finished products.
 ; 
 ; GE: The whole operation…
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 ; DD: The whole operation was overseas. So the people that made the machines didn’t have any business. The people that made the cloth didn’t have any people in it. The people that made the cotton didn’t have any business. The thread [manufacturers] didn’t have any business. And so, it started breaking down, all the industries that supported this one product, they started getting everything made overseas, and then the manufacturers would then have a representative that would fly over their quality control man, we would call him, that would fly overseas to make sure things were the way that they hoped they would be.
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 ; GE: Right, right. The trade association, what were the years of your prime involvement? When you were president. Was that around…
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 ; DD: The ‘70s? Late ‘60s, early ‘70s. 0 2704 The Atlantic Apparel Contractors Association DD: Mikus. Mikus started with the association, didn’t he?
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 ; AD: Michus started with the union, and he represented the union at that time, then he broke away and then he started representing the contractors.
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 ; DD: He worked with the association. Arnold was on the board of the association, being a contractor, he was part of the board. And then Mikus always would call on Arnold: could you do this for me, could you do that for me? And Arnold became his right hand man. And then when Mikus died, the board said, how about you take over.
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 ; GE: And at that point, did you sell the factory?
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 ; AD: No, I kept it.
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 ; DD: He kept the factory, and my son went into the factory.
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 ; GE: Okay, okay, so that’s Scott?
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 ; DD: Scott.
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 ; GE: Okay, and then Scott started running the factory.
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 ; DD: Scott started running the factory. Scott went to Textile Institution, so he had a background, and he was brought up in the factory, and he had a background of what it was about. But things started going really bad, and all the factories were closing up one after the other. 0 2824 Arnold Becomes Executive Director of the Association GE: And I am assuming when Arnold was president of the association, that was a job…
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 ; DD: Oh, yeah. It was a full time paying job. That’s why he just couldn’t handle both. He was traveling all over. He was going into Harrisburg, making presentations.
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 ; GE: Right. Because they were basically also, besides representing, they were also trying to lobby.
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 ; DD: Yes, they were lobbying. They spent a lot of time lobbying…
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 ; AD: In Washington.
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 ; DD: He was in Washington a lot. He tried to stop exports, and he really tried, but correct me if I’m wrong, Arnold, didn’t the union encourage the overseas saying that they should help them out, they’re poor nations, and help them out…
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 ; AD: At the beginning, the union didn’t fight the manufacturers because they figured, well they needed help because they were doing- connected to other industries, in importing and exporting, but then it expanded and…
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 ; DD: They got a commission. The union got a percentage on every piece of fabric that came into the United States. 0 2947 Jewish Contractors and Italian Contractors GE: Right, right. You know, in Allentown, I know that a lot of the contractors were Jewish.
 ; 
 ; AD: In what?
 ; 
 ; GE: In Allentown, a lot of the contractors were Jewish. How about in this area, in Schuylkill County?
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 ; AD: Very few, I was one of them—well three or four.
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 ; GE: Well what kind of ethnicity did the others have? The contractors?
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 ; AD: I’ll tell you what I told you before. In Allentown, they had Amalgamated Union…
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 ; DD: No, honey, she wants to know whether they were Italian, Jewish…
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 ; GE: Right.
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 ; AD: Very few Jewish people in this area, in the factories. There were a lot of non-Jewish Protestants and Catholics.
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 ; GE: Right, but the ones who owned the factories in this area, were they often Italian in this area?
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 ; AD: They were mostly somewhat Jewish, the ones who owned the factories.
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 ; DD: When you say this area, what do you mean?
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 ; GE: Schuylkill.
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 ; DD: Schuylkill County had a lot of Jewish owners, but if you go up to Windgap, where his office was, they were mainly, I would say, if you look at it, the majority of his contractors were Italian. They came from Windgap, Roseta. 0 3080 What Do You Value Most in Life? SC: So just a couple of sort of general questions about you. One of them is what do you value most in life?
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 ; AD: What’s this?
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 ; SC: What do you value most in life?
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 ; AD: What do I value? Have a good family that you live with, raise your children properly, and everything else. As far as I am concerned, I have children and I come from a Jewish home, and I feel I expect them that when they get older and get married that they will still continue being in a Jewish home. And mixed marriage today is a touchy thing to talk about because a lot of the Jewish families have mixed marriages and visa-versa and whatnot. Sometimes you don’t get involved. You know, Allentown has a lot of mixed marriages, New York has a lot of mixed marriages, you stay away from that conversation. I do, anyway. 0 3142 What Has Made You Feel the Most Creative? SC: And also, what has made you feel the most creative or fulfilled personally in your life? Has given you that sense of almost artistry in your life or…
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 ; AD: I don’t understand the question.
 ; 
 ; DD: May I answer for him because he always says this to me. Whenever he gets his monthly check from his pension, and from Social Security, he always says, “See, I provided. I am a good provider, and I did well.” And this happens every month. This is what I would say…
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 ; SC: That gave you satisfaction, that you provided.
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 ; AD: Not everybody, people would work, they would get their money from the manufacturers, they get their check and instead of paying payroll, they would go and gamble. You don’t go through life that way. Once that happens, you’re out of business.
 ; 
 ; GE: And so many families depend on…
 ; 
 ; AD: Well, so listen, they worked too…
 ; 
 ; GE: Exactly.
 ; 0 MovingImage Arnold Delin talks about how he was raised in Nashua, New Hampshire. After World War II he moved to Brooklyn, worked there and met and married Dolores. A few years later the Delin family moved to Pottsville, PA when Arnold landed a good job in Schuylkill Haven, Pennsylvania as the manager of a lingerie factory. Later, Arnold bought the factory. In the 1970s Arnold became the Executive Director of the Atlantic Apparel Contractors Association. The Association represented the contractors collectively in negotiations with the Union and with manufacturers and heavily lobbied the government on behalf of its members. An Interview with Arnold Delin, June 16, 2014 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is June 16, 2014 ; interview with Arnold Delin. Could we go back, how much you know about your family as far back as you know? It gives us a pattern to see how you got to where you were. ARNOLD DELIN: I can tell you where my parents came from. They were refugees from Poland and from that area. I don't exactly know where, but within the area of where the Jewish people emigrated from Poland. Somehow our relatives brought them here, some settled in Brooklyn. Some settled in Massachusetts, some in this neck of the woods. SC: Do you know any of their names and anything about what they did? AD: My father was a peddler I guess, whatever work he was able to get. SC: What was his name? AD: Simon Delinsky. Then when I got a job in this country, I worked on Wall Street for a sponge company, I think I told you that, and actually they were German Jews and the Jewish word is poshnisht [Yiddish for it shouldn't happen], they thought certain things about the Jewish people, so they shortened my name to Delin. It was more Americanized. SC: Can you tell me anything about your mother, where she was from and what her name was? DOLORES DELIN: Sarah Rubin. AD: One was Rubin. I don't know her exact name. One of my sisters was Rubin, so I can imagine it was Rubin. She came from Poland, the area where they did not like Jews and got out of there and came into Brooklyn. Then they spread them out as they usually do, they don't put them all in one area. DD: Can I interject? SC: Sure. DD: His mother and father were married before. They came over from the old country. His father lost his first wife. His mother lost her husband. They had children when they met. He had a daughter and she didn't have any children. Sarah was his daughter right? AD: Sarah was my mother's daughter. DD: So they brought children to the marriage, and then they had two children, Arnold and Arnold's sister Mildred who is older than him. Miriam was his father's daughter. They lived in Nashua, New Hampshire. SC: Do you have any memories of Nashua, New Hampshire? AD: I remember I went to school there. I grew up and went into the army. When I came back, my mother wanted me to marry a Jewish girl. I had a Jewish sister who lived in Brooklyn, and I spent a couple weeks there and met Dolores there. One thing led to another, I checked her bank account to make sure everything was all right. DD: He worked in a grocery store in Nashua as a young boy. Do you mind telling them about your experiences in the grocery store? AD: Well, people used to come in, they wanted a ripe tomato, so they would squeeze a tomato because they liked it soft, it didn't make any difference. Brockwins is a chain grocery store like the A& ; P. I worked in a grocery store. I mixed a lot. The Jewish community was small, but I mixed a lot with the non-Jewish kids. Working in the store, I met a lot of non-Jewish people. So that's how I spread out throughout my early life, so to speak. DD: This was during the days of the rationing. AD: The rationing, you would have coupons and points. I had to make sure certain people, especially Jewish people, would get their fair share of groceries with or without the points. We got along pretty good. There was very little anti-Semitism. There was anti-Semitism all over, but because my father was a peddler, we got to know a lot of the non-Jewish people. SC: Can we back up for a second? Tell me your full name and your birth date. AD: My full name is Arnold. The original name was Abraham, then when I got a job with the Americanized sponge company, he was a German Jew. It didn't go right to have a Jewish name so I had to cut my name short. Arnold from Abraham and Delinsky to Delin. I was born in 1925. 75 and 14, so I'm 89. SC: So your dad, did he go by the name Delinsky? AD: Yeah. Simon Delinsky. SC: So, were you born in Nashua, or were you born in Brooklyn? AD: I was born in Nashua. DD: His family lived in Nashua. They never came to Brooklyn. His sister got married, and she lived in Brooklyn. His mother was ill. She asked him when he came out of the service to move to Brooklyn to be with his sister so that he could be in a Jewish element. AD: She was afraid of marrying a non-Jew. DD: Unorthodox for a Jew to marry a non-Jew. In fact, he did have a brother, Phillip, who was older than him, who did marry a non-Jew. The parents sat shiva [period of formal mourning in Judaism] for him and never saw him again. So it was very important in his mother's mind that he marries a Jew. AD: Mother and father, everybody. One of the things that were a no-no in a community was mixed marriage. SC: In most cultures in the United States. So when did you go down to Brooklyn? How old were you when you moved down with your sister? DD: He was about 22/23. SC: When you moved down there, how were you employed? Where did you work? AD: Sponge company. America's Sponge Shammy Company. DD: They were located near Wall Street and he worked there. That's when we met. SC: How did you meet? AD: She brought me lunch. DD: I was working and I would catch the train-- AD: Everybody used to meet for breakfast in the morning, and we would wait for the train. If you're lucky you got the express and it headed to New York quick. If not, you'd get the local. DD: That's where we met. AR: And that is where I met so many other people. SC: How old were both of you? DD: I was 18 ; Arnold had to be 22. We were married the following year and he was 24. SC: So did you have any other jobs besides the grocery store and the sponge company? DD: Yes he did. He got a job when we got married, within a year I was pregnant. He quit the sponge company because they wanted him to travel and he didn't want to be on the road. So, he got a job at the post office. He worked nights. And then he got a job ; he opened up a fruit store. I had a girlfriend whose brother was in that business and they went out together. AD: 23rd Street, Jewish neighborhood. DD: One day, I was pregnant and went down to keep him company, and a woman came into the store and she said to him, check the melons. AD: She wanted a super ripe melon. DD: He went into the back room and brought it out to her. I said what are you doing? He said I took it to the ripening room. He took a hammer and hit it. AD: That was on Avenue J, Ocean Avenue. You got the train coming to New York. DD: And then my father was a contractor. He made ladies blouses and clothes. He needed help in the place, so Arnold came down and worked for him. SC: In Pennsylvania? DD: We were in Brooklyn and my father had two shops there. But then he went bankrupt. AD: He had another partner that didn't want to work, so I figured that wasn't going to work for me so I got another job. I had to work in the Bronx. From the Bronx, I moved to Pennsylvania. I had another job there. DD: Before he worked for my father, he worked for a dress manufacturer, children's communion dresses. Do you want to hear a story? SC: Absolutely. DD: He was selling, a very young guy was selling, and he wanted to have breakfast in this restaurant and there was an empty seat next to this woman. He sits down next to her and they start talking. "What do you do?" He says he is selling and has to meet with this woman, and it's going to be really hard to get an order and he really needs an order. AD: She happened to be the woman I had to see. She said come upstairs ; I'm the woman. She was tough because she bought for all the stores ; she was a head buyer. Just like dumb luck, I hit the right button and it came out well. DD: He got a big order, and then when the order came into the manufacturers house, the manufacturer didn't like her. He told him the hell with her I'm not shipping out. AD: He always used to haggle with them and she said, "you don't like it, you don't get the order." So he said I quit, leave it alone. It was a big order. DD: It was a big order and he worked on commission so at lunchtime he went down and got on the phone and he tried to hide his voice and he threatened them. He said you better send the merchandise in or I'm going to report you to the Business Bureau. He came back and the place was bustling getting ready to ship, because he was working on commission. AD: Children's dresses and communion dresses. DD: Then I worked at 498 7th Avenue. I worked for a buying house and that whole building, there were manufacturers in there. AD: The garment industry. DD: He got a job with one guy and he did well and left him and referenced and went to the next and got a job with the next guy. One year we had to fill out two pages of employment for the IRS. He kept changing. And then my father said, come on and work for me. SC: Were these contractors in these years that you were working for? DD: They were manufacturers. In those days they were all manufacturers. There was no such thing as contractors. AD: Actually, the definition of a manufacturer is they did not have salespeople. The salespeople would get the merchandise. Sometimes it was a combination ; sometimes the manufacturer did have people who would sell for them. DD: The difference between a manufacturer and a contractor. A manufacturer buys the fabric, sells the fabric, and gets the fabric, designs it. A contractor sews. SC: So there wasn't a differentiation back then? DD: In the first early days, there was no such thing as a contractor. Everybody was a manufacturer. Everybody manufactured. Then, they found out that it would be more profitable for them if they had somebody do all the sewing and they didn't have the headaches of the workers, and the labor force and so on. They would farm it out to someone else and say, "here is my fabric, and here is the pattern." Some places did the cutting. Isn't that right? AD: Yes, some would cut for the manufacturer and give it to the contractors, who didn't have cutters in their employment. DD: Yes, some contractors had cutters and some contractors did not have cutters. So it was all kinds of what the manufacturer wants from you. One contractor would go into the market and get many manufacturers to work for. He didn't work for one. It was possible he worked for more than one. AD: He would cut the goods for one manufacturer and ship it to different factories. Factories were big ; they would probably hire 30 to 40 people for the sewing machines to sew. They didn't do any cutting. But then as they expanded, the factories got bigger and they did their own cutting, their own sewing, and then they started shipping to stores and what not. DD: In fact, Arnold eventually became a contractor. They would cut and if there was any fabric leftover, they would make what they call overcuts. And they would sell it themselves to make some pocket money. That's how that market came about. You know, discounted clothes. Because the contractors, whatever excess they had, they would sell. SC: Outlets? DD: Well the factories, they would open up the door and you could come in and buy a couple of shirts. I remember one woman came in, she was a very fancy lady, and she looked at the label and she didn't like the label. So Arnold said to her, "where do you usually shop?" She shopped in Saks Fifth. So he went back and took a label and put it on the blouse. She was very happy. Then there was another industry, a trucking industry that just-- AD: It was interstate trucking ; they controlled all the trucking. A certain element that controlled it. A certain element. They would deliver the goods to the contractors. They would deliver it one day then ship it back at night and pick up the finished garment and bring it back to the manufacturer. The manufacturer shipped it. DD: That element was more controlled by . . . SC: So it was a different ethnicity? DD: Yes. SC: This was so helpful to me, because we had been talking around sort of how the process changed over time. AD: Whom have you been interviewing besides me? GE: Like Milton Sheftel, Irwin Salitsky. AD: (inaudible). There was ILG, International Ladies Garments. Sheftel was the Amalg-- GE: I don't think he was either because he did the rags. SC: But since we talked with you the first time, we have been asking people, were they involved with the manufacturers. So thank you. DD: And then after, there were so many contractors spread out in Pennsylvania. They all ran to Pennsylvania because the unions. The manufacturers were unionized in Manhattan. The contractors were just mom and pop opening up a shop with sewing machines and they started sewing. AD: Then they start to organize the workers. So then the factories became organized. Some ran away, some went from the North to the South, where unions weren't accepted at that time. Eventually they did. Then the imports started coming when the manufacturers found it was cheaper to have goods made overseas. Then that's how it started expanding from overseas to America. DD: When they had all the contractors that started, then they realized that they needed a voice to speak as one. So there were four hundred members at one time. Instead of each one making a contract with Joe for a dollar and this one for 50 cents, they had one voice and spoke in unison. AD: The unions started to organize the workers. Once they organized the workers, they had the manufacturers by the you know what, because if they didn't become a union shop, they couldn't get their goods made. It was always a fight between non-union and union. The shirt companies were in the union. They were in the amalgamated union, the dress and ladies sportswear and stuff like that. That's the type of merchandise. And they were in the International Ladies Garment. DD: The dresses I think also were Amalgamated, weren't they? AD: They were mixed. DD: And what had happened was, when they formed the Atlantic Apparel Contractors Association, and then they had Arnold be the spokesperson for the contractors. AD: We joined the association and then together we were able to get a better contract. Then we got involved with the trucking industry, which were our partners at that time. Certain element and what not. DD: Not only were they able to speak to the union as one voice, but if you had a manufacturer and if you were the contractor, and your manufacturer decided he didn't want to pay you, then he would be the one that would go into the manufacturer. The manufacturer would say, oh they sewed all the pockets on inside-out. AD: They would use an excuse. DD: Or put the wrong color buttons, or whatever they could to get out of paying the contractor. Then he would negotiate between the manufacturer and that particular contractor. So they were the negotiating factor for the contractors in this area in Pennsylvania. AD: Well we spread out. We started from New York, in Brooklyn, and Jersey. When they started going to Pennsylvania, they were running away from the unions. Eventually, the unions caught up. They got to the contractors through the manufacturer. Once the manufacturer was organized, either they came to union shops, or they wouldn't get the work. SC: So do you have any memories of those early years and then we'll switch over to the business side. AD: What's that? SC: Do you have memories of your early years in the business and your life? Just in general, any stories? AD: I got a job with her father in her father's- no, that was-- I got a job working for a manufacturer, then I met her father who worked for a children's dress manufacturer. That's how he became organized. At first they weren't organized, then he became organized. Then I met Dolores somehow or other. We met on a train going into New York. One thing led to another and we started dating and got married. Her father had a children's dress factory. SC: What was the name of the dress factory and the children's goods? AD: I'm trying to think of what it was. DD: I too don't remember my father's business, what it was. It was located in Brooklyn and he worked for a company by the name of Judy Kent. AD: They were amalgamated. DD: They made children's, when I say children's, I'm talking about 1 year olds, 2 year olds. They made little skirts and blouses like doll clothes. I remember my daughter was born then and he brought home a little skirt, all accordion pleating and little blouses. That was my father. Judy Kent wanted my father to move to Pennsylvania because that was a trend. My father was in Brooklyn. His factories were in Brooklyn and they wanted my father to move to Pennsylvania. And my father said, "Pennsylvania?" AD: They wanted to run away from that time. The unions weren't organized yet in Pennsylvania. So one thing led to another then eventually we moved. DD: So they moved- So my father wouldn't go and that was his demise. My father went bankrupt, and he lost his business. Arnold was looking for work and knowing that he came from a small community, I suggested that we make the move anywhere out of New York, because I felt that New York was not the place for us. In fact, I suggested we go to Japan. At that time because that was after the war and the Japanese were starting their needle trade and they were advertising for people. We were young ; I said why don't we go. He said you have to be crazy ; I'm not going to Japan. I said we have a ten-year plan. He said no, no. I'll look for a job out of New York. We looked in the papers and there was a job in Schuylkill Haven in a lingerie firm and he came out and he called me up. He said they'll give me the job, I have a job, but they won't give me a contract. What shall I do? I said take the job, because you're so terrific that we'll be okay there. So that's how we came here. AD: Manufacturers didn't want to commit themselves because they were still running away from the union. So one thing led to another... So I worked there during the week and came home on weekends. Then enough was enough, either you move-- DD: Well I was pregnant with our second child, and I didn't want to make the move until I had the baby. So he would commute--for a year he commuted, and then- AD: Friday afternoon I would catch the bus and come home and then to get back to the factory I would go back late Sunday evening to open up the factory early Monday morning to make sure they got started properly. I lived at the YMCA, 5 dollars or 6 dollars a week. It was a different type of living. I met a lot of non-Jews, as I got involved with the community. SC: And that was here already in Pottsville? DD: He was here in Pottsville ; he lived in Pottsville. The job was in Schuylkill Haven which is just a little town nearby and he lived at the Y. He ate at the local restaurant where he met the Jewish people. He had friends here before I came, he had made some acquaintances. AD: It made it easier on her. SC: About what year was that? DD: [19]55. That was 1955. We didn't have any money and my girlfriend's father was the head of the International Jewish Association, the union. He knew that we were moving and he knew that we didn't have any funds, so he gave us $500 to buy a stove and a refrigerator and to help with the down payment on our house. So we took the kids, loaded the car up and drove here, and we bought this house. Not this house, we bought a house on Howard Avenue. That's where we lived. He worked two shifts, day shift and night shift. AD: And weekends. Seven days a week I was working. DD: He's a hard worker. SC: At the same place? DD: He was the manager of that particular factory and so he had a day shift and a night shift. AD: During the Christmas season, I got a job with the government working at the post office. That's when we lived in Brooklyn. SC: You are a hard worker. And that gives me shivers because that is the American dream. You come here and someone helps you out and you get started from nothing. AD: What happened to your first interview? Did you lose the papers? GE: What happened was we still had it on the computer, on the video, and it got corrupted, it got bad. DD: This man, his name was Irwin Horowitz, lent us $500 and we paid him back slowly but surely. Many years later, we were at a function and he said to Arnold and said I want to show you something. He pulled out the last letter that we wrote him thanking him. He carried it around in his pocket. He says you have no idea, in my position, how many people I have helped out during my lifetime. And nobody has ever thanked me or paid me back. And he carried it in his wallet, this letter. And we were well advanced already in years already when this happened. SC: We didn't hear this story before, so this is beautiful. DD: That's how we were able to get to Pottsville, because my father was bankrupt. He didn't have any money to help us out, and we didn't have any other way of making the means. They weren't going to pay for setting up our house. But they did pay for the movers to get to Pennsylvania. That's how we ended up in Pottsville. Then, he had the business, he was a manager for many years, and then they wanted to sell it. GE: About how many years? 10? 15? DD: I would say less than that. And then he bought the factory and he ran it for a long time. AD: It was a union factory. We moved to Schuylkill Haven, there weren't any shops there. I was the first union shop that came to that area, which the other manufacturers and others didn't enjoy that particularly because they knew sooner or later they would get organized with the union. DD: And you were the first one that hired black employees. [switches tape] SC: Today is June 16, 2014 ; interview with the Delins. GE: So we were talking about Ethel Maid, and Arnold, do you want to just tell us a little bit about that business in terms of the products ; what kind of products you had made? AD: Ethel Maid, when the non-Jewish people died, they didn't bury them in a tallis...and Ethel Maid made shrouds, they made men's suits, with a worn-seam in the back, and everything else. And Jewish people, actually, you weren't supposed to bury them in suits. DD: I confused you because Ethel Maid was a shroud company. That was above the factory where... AD: They made burial gowns. DD: ...he worked. I gave you the wrong name. GE: Oh, oh, oh. Do you remember what was the name of the factory where you managed? AD: Peekaboo. That was mine. DD: What was the name of the factory that hired you, do you remember their name? The one that hired you, the lingerie firm that hired you? -- It will come to you. GE: So Peekaboo, is that what you named it? AD: The name of the company, I named it. GE: Okay, and tell us about the kinds of products you made there. AD: We made ladies lingerie. Like petticoats, slips. DD: And then you made blouses. AD: Then they switched to blouses, ladies blouses, children's blouses. DD: When he would go into the market, he would see, he would go to the manufacturers, and he would try to sign up any manufacturer to see what they needed, what he could sew-- GE: What he could sew and what they needed. DD: Right, so it would be lingerie, it would be blouses. GE: Okay, and your workers were flexible enough that you were able to do that. AD: Well a sewer was a sewer. We trained, we had a forelady. Different products had different types of sewing. And fabric was different also. So you had to have different equipment-- DD: Arnold, wasn't the lingerie company called Marvel Made? AD: Ethel Maid. DD: No, underneath called Marvel Made was a lingerie company, Ethel Maid was upstairs? AD: No, Ethel Maid owned the building. She was-- Marvel Made was a manufacturer at the time. DD: Yeah, for the lingerie. Marvel Made was the name of the company. GE: Okay, and when you owned it, about how many people worked there? AD: I had about 50 people. 50-60 people. And I worked a day shift and a night shift. GE: And were most of the workers - what kind of workers? So you had most were sewers, and what other kinds of functions? AD: Well I had- I was fortunate enough to have a man come in and we would get the piece goods, he would cut the fabric into the patterns. The manufacturer would send us the piece goods with a pattern, what he wanted to be made, and we'd spread the goods and he'd cut it out and we would give it over to the sewers. GE: Okay, and I think you had talked now...Want to tell us a little more about excess? Were you able to do much excess producing? AD: No, I usually worked for one manufacturer, and if he couldn't give me enough work, sometimes we would take work from another manufacturer as a fill in. GE: Right, right, but separately- okay, so one thing is who is your main manufacturer? AD: Oh, I don't remember that. GE: Okay, okay, there were many, a long time ago. And you had mentioned before about with the production, that one thing you would try to do is that once you met that amount that you needed to get from that material- the overcuts, right. AD: They would ship in the goods. They would send us in an order, spread so many yards of goods, sometimes with piece goods, you'd have extra yardage. Sometimes the manufacturer said hey cut it all or they'd say hold it for another cutting later on. So you had to account for the piece goods. Sometimes it's the manufacturer, some would keep the excess piece goods for themselves and not report it. I'd report it as it was. GE: Okay okay, so you really didn't have, really didn't do that, okay. And do you want to tell us about your relationship with your employees? AD: They worked for me. I mean either they produced or they didn't produce. We had a good relationship. There were mostly non-Jewish people, all non-Jewish. Once in a while, you might have someone Jewish who was a sewer. We had a good relationship, I mean, once you get organized with the union, you follow the union contract and that was it. GE: And I think you said that you were the first one locally to hire someone who was not white, a Black person. AD: Yes, that came and I had one working for me. She was an excellent worker, and she had a couple of- her sister moved to the area and brought her friend along, and one became three. And some of my workers were not too happy because I hired a black person. But they got along once they got to know them, they were excellent workers and they produced, broke the ice so to speak. And another factory hired a black--there weren't that many blacks in the Lehigh area. DD: Very few black families. AD: In the first place, there wasn't any place for them to be, they were very isolated. SC: Did anyone ever talk about from the coal regions the fact that some of the groups were angry about African Americans because of some of the strikes because they were strike-brokers? AD: No. SC: That was a tangent, but its Labor History Sue asking questions. AD: No. Each of the coal industry labor was different to the other manufacturers in the fabric industry. Each one had their own. GE: While you were in the business, as the years went on, because it was going South, because a lot of the time...was it getting harder and harder? AD: As the unions started organizing the factories, they couldn't compete so the manufacturer, who was still non-union, saw you were not giving goods to those who were not union-shop, he started opening up shops down South. And there's one open, another followed, followed, and then it was a lot of non-union manufacturers down South, and that's how a lot of the work fell to the way, from the union shops to the non-union shops. DD: The trend was after they saturated Pennsylvania, and then- with non-union shops, then when the union came in to organize them, now the manufacturers had to look for another way out, so they started going down South where there weren't any non-union shops. AD: New England had a lot of union shops, and everyone filtered like she just said, they filtered away from the North to the South. GE: Right, right. The manufacturers that you produced for, were they always union? AD: To have a union shop, it had to be union manufacturers. GE: Okay, and as the years went on, I guess you opened it in the '60s, '70s, something like that? Did it start becoming, was it noticeably that it was harder and harder each year to get enough business? AD: We were able to get the business, even some of the non-union manufacturers, when they wanted--if you made a good quality garment, they would pay the price. They were flexible. GE: Right, okay, so-- AD: Actually, it all filtered away. GE: Okay, so you're saying, that happened over a long period of time? AD: Half a dozen years or so. DD: It's happened little by little. What happened was, I would say in the '60s, things started going bad. Things would get harder and harder. You would go in looking for work and couldn't find work and the contractors are hustling in the city looking for work. AD: You'd go into New York if you needed work and you would take it at a lower price, if you didn't need work, either they would pay you or you didn't take it. If you produced a good garment, then you had a relationship with the manufacturer. Because the manufacturer didn't have the solace. He didn't want to get involved with the union, so he had factories like myself. Ship the piece goods in, we cut the garments, we cut the fabric up and everything else, ship the finished garments to the manufacturer. DD: It got really bad when they started shipping overseas. GE: That was the '70s then, correct? DD: Yeah, and when they moved and started working overseas that's when it really got bad and that's when they didn't, the manufacturers no longer made the fabric here. They bought the fabric overseas, had the fabric shipped to a factory overseas, had it cut, and then they would ship them the finished products. GE: The whole operation-- DD: The whole operation was overseas. So the people that made the machines didn't have any business. The people that made the cloth didn't have any people in it. The people that made the cotton didn't have any business. The thread [manufacturers] didn't have any business. And so, it started breaking down, all the industries that supported this one product, they started getting everything made overseas, and then the manufacturers would then have a representative that would fly over their quality control man, we would call him, that would fly overseas to make sure things were the way that they hoped they would be. GE: Right, right. The trade association, what were the years of your prime involvement? When you were president. Was that around-- DD: The '70s? Late '60s, early '70s. The guy that started with the association, his name was-- It's on the tip of my tongue. AD: What happened to all of the notes from before? DD: They're gone, honey. GE: We do have some of the notes, so we do have some of the notes, but we just lost the actual interview. SC: And we want you in the archives. DD: Mikus. Mikus started with the association, didn't he? AD: Michus started with the union, and he represented the union at that time, then he broke away and then he started representing the contractors. DD: He worked with the association. Arnold was on the board of the association, being a contractor, he was part of the board. And then Mikus always would call on Arnold: could you do this for me, could you do that for me? And Arnold became his right hand man. And then when Mikus died, the board said, how about you take over. GE: And at that point, did you sell the factory? AD: No, I kept it. DD: He kept the factory, and my son went into the factory. GE: Okay, okay, so that's Scott? DD: Scott. GE: Okay, and then Scott started running the factory. DD: Scott started running the factory. Scott went to Textile Institution, so he had a background, and he was brought up in the factory, and he had a background of what it was about. But things started going really bad, and all the factories were closing up one after the other. AD: You couldn't compete with the union. GE: Right, right. DD: They couldn't compete with overseas. And so, we had to close up ours. AD: The facts are, not that you couldn't compete with the union, it was that you couldn't compete overseas. It was cheaper there. GE: Right. And about how long, did that- from the time Scott- he became president of the association-- DD: And he still had the factory, he was still running the factory at the same time. Scott, I don't remember. He got out of college, he had a job. And then all of a sudden, it was too much. He [Arnold] couldn't do both, so Scott came in. And I don't remember-- AD: Scott only worked a couple of years, he wanted to get into business for himself. DD: Five years maybe. GE: And I am assuming when Arnold was president of the association, that was a job-- DD: Oh, yeah. It was a full time paying job. That's why he just couldn't handle both. He was traveling all over. He was going into Harrisburg, making presentations. GE: Right. Because they were basically also, besides representing, they were also trying to lobby. DD: Yes, they were lobbying. They spent a lot of time lobbying-- AD: In Washington. DD: He was in Washington a lot. He tried to stop exports, and he really tried, but correct me if I'm wrong, Arnold, didn't the union encourage the overseas saying that they should help them out, they're poor nations, and help them out-- AD: At the beginning, the union didn't fight the manufacturers because they figured, well they needed help because they were doing- connected to other industries, in importing and exporting, but then it expanded and-- DD: They got a commission. The union got a percentage on every piece of fabric that came into the United States. AD: No, that's not so. The union didn't get a commission. DD: They got a percentage. The union got a percentage. AD: No, the unions it was a business. They brought it in themselves. Whatever, we're getting this all mixed up, it's ridiculous. SC: You're doing great. And you know what? A lot of this we didn't hear before. AD: What's this? SC: A lot of what you're saying we hadn't heard before. We talked more in some ways about your relationship with your workers, which was wonderful. AD: You've had to have a relationship with your workers if you wanted them to work for you. I mean when the contract came up, I mean that's where they wanted to get more money and everything else, and they didn't want to go work someplace else. GE: Right, right. You know, in Allentown, I know that a lot of the contractors were Jewish. AD: In what? GE: In Allentown, a lot of the contractors were Jewish. How about in this area, in Schuylkill County? AD: Very few, I was one of them--well three or four. GE: Well what kind of ethnicity did the others have? The contractors? AD: I'll tell you what I told you before. In Allentown, they had Amalgamated Union-- DD: No, honey, she wants to know whether they were Italian, Jewish-- GE: Right. AD: Very few Jewish people in this area, in the factories. There were a lot of non-Jewish Protestants and Catholics. GE: Right, but the ones who owned the factories in this area, were they often Italian in this area? AD: They were mostly somewhat Jewish, the ones who owned the factories. DD: When you say this area, what do you mean? GE: Schuylkill. DD: Schuylkill County had a lot of Jewish owners, but if you go up to Windgap, where his office was, they were mainly, I would say, if you look at it, the majority of his contractors were Italian. They came from Windgap, Roseta. AD: All in that area up there. DD: That area there, they were all Italian. AD: And then up in Wilkes Barre, Scranton, they expanded. And up in that neck of the woods, it was a different type of manufacturer. They made ladies dresses up there, they made ladies sportswear up there. They were more unionized up there because of the coal region, they organized a factory there. DD: There were so many Italians in the Association that they thought it was primarily Italian, and we were invited to a dinner, and Arnold got up and in Yiddish he made a prayer. And this one Jewish manufacturer sitting at our table started to laugh. He said, "Boy, for an Italian boy, you really speak good Hebrew." GE: That's funny. I think that's pretty good. I think that's great. I think you gave us really a lot with your business and with things. Do you want to ask them a couple of-- SC: So just a couple of sort of general questions about you. One of them is what do you value most in life? AD: What's this? SC: What do you value most in life? AD: What do I value? Have a good family that you live with, raise your children properly, and everything else. As far as I am concerned, I have children and I come from a Jewish home, and I feel I expect them that when they get older and get married that they will still continue being in a Jewish home. And mixed marriage today is a touchy thing to talk about because a lot of the Jewish families have mixed marriages and visa-versa and whatnot. Sometimes you don't get involved. You know, Allentown has a lot of mixed marriages, New York has a lot of mixed marriages, you stay away from that conversation. I do, anyway. SC: And also, what has made you feel the most creative or fulfilled personally in your life? Has given you that sense of almost artistry in your life or-- AD: I don't understand the question. DD: May I answer for him because he always says this to me. Whenever he gets his monthly check from his pension, and from Social Security, he always says, "See, I provided. I am a good provider, and I did well." And this happens every month. This is what I would say-- SC: That gave you satisfaction, that you provided. AD: Not everybody, people would work, they would get their money from the manufacturers, they get their check and instead of paying payroll, they would go and gamble. You don't go through life that way. Once that happens, you're out of business. GE: And so many families depend on-- AD: Well, so listen, they worked too-- GE: Exactly. AD: They wait for that check, and if they work for a contractor or manufacturer, who somehow or other didn't get their money. If the contractor didn't get their money from the manufacturer during the week, Thursday, you had to prepare the payroll, and you didn't have the check, I would have to run into New York or wherever and make sure I brought a check back with me, otherwise, the girls don't get paid. And luckily I had a good relationship with the bank, they might take work with me and give the payroll out. But then it got to the point where I just couldn't do it anymore. DD: In those days, you didn't have a line of credits like you have now. Your name was your line of credit. So if you go into the bank and Arnold says, "Listen, my check didn't come in, I expect this and that.." So they would then say all right and they would, that would be his line of credit. But in those days, there wasn't a line of credit that you could, it was your name, your reputation. GE: Right, right. SC: And we remember, at least I do especially, I think we've talked about this, first of all, how good it was to interview you first. You really set the stage for us with our other interviews. But also, when you talked about your workers and how you would work around their children coming home from school, and just really how, I mean, the women remember you and talk to you. AD: Well, a small community is different. I think most of the garment factories had a good relationship with their workers. Once the unions get in, naturally the union took control. With the workers, the union stepped in. It's like if people want to work for you, you gotta treat them right. DD: It's a shame that the industry isn't still here because it gave a lot of opportunities to a lot of people who didn't have an education to support their families. And he had, I know that he had women there, their kids would come in in the summer and he would give them jobs as packers and things like that. And one is a dentist today, one of their girls. GE: And I think you're right that almost all of them were small businesses. DD: They were small businesses. GE: And so you see, when you see face to face-- DD: Yeah, then you know what they are going through and there is no secret. You know what's happening. You know, it's a family business. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). 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Arnold Delin June 16, 2014
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Arnold Delin talks about how he was raised in Nashua, New Hampshire. After World War II he moved to Brooklyn, worked there and met and married Dolores. A few years later the Delin family moved to Pottsville, PA when Arnold landed a good job in Schuylkill Haven, Pennsylvania as the manager of a lingerie factory. Later, Arnold bought the factory. In the 1970s Arnold became the Executive Director of the Atlantic Apparel Contractors Association. The Association represented the contractors collectively in negotiations with the Union and with manufacturers and heavily lobbied the government on behalf of its members.
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LVTNT-01
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2014-06-16
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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d6f94fb097d9509e6d4dbaa58ab14c08
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Title
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
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Dolores Delin
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-08.xml
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5.4 June 16, 2014 Dolores Delin, June 16, 2014 LVTNT-08 19:36 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Dolores Delin Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 DelinDolores_20140616.mp4 1.0:|25(5)|50(3)|73(3)|90(12)|115(10)|142(11)|173(8)|200(4)|221(7)|242(17)|269(15)|292(8)|315(13)|340(15)|371(8)|400(4)|431(3)|450(10)|483(11)|492(6) 0 https://youtu.be/zq44p57VAp8 YouTube video 0 Introduction—Dolores Delin SC: Okay, so this is an interview with the Delins, and it is June 16, 2014, and this is tape number 4.
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 ; GE: So, we remember, Dolores, last time you had told us about your grandmother and some of the sweet memories that you had and if you wanted to share with us about that she always wanted you to be independent.
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 ; DD: Right, right. As I said, my grandmother and I were very close, and we were, and when I got married, she pulled me aside and she said ‘look, Dolores, every woman should have her own knipple.’ And by that she meant every woman should have her own money. And so with that, she gave me a one hundred dollar bill. 0 150 Supporting the Family and Its Business as Wife and Mother GE: [A]s the wife, tell us a little bit about what it was like having first the business and then also with the apparel, with the trade association. So what was your role as the wife?
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 ; DD: Well, my role as a wife was the, well how can I put it? The first thing in Arnold’s life was the synagogue. He was very dedicated to the synagogue, and then he was very dedicated to his job, and then he was very dedicated to his family. There was no room for all of this at one time, so the synagogue, his business, and his family. So as a wife I was in charge of the house. And I was always supportive of Arnold and whatever he did, and all of the organizations that he was involved with, I was always there working behind him, writing his speeches, like everyone. 0 393 Children and Grandchildren DD: Two children.
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 ; SC: Two children, yes.
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 ; DD: Robin used to work for, she’s a licensed, she does licensing for Madame Alexandra Dolls, they’re collectibles. I don’t know if you are familiar with them. And my son, Scott, who is the Vice President of Sales with Superior Linen. Three grandchildren, Ariana, who is in public relations in Florida. She is an equestrian, and she writes for an equestrian magazine.
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 ; GE: Oh, isn’t that something.
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 ; DD: Yeah, and my grandson, the middle one, Noah, he just graduated from Ithaca, and he’s doing freelance work for Walt Disney. 0 732 Dolores' Values and Inspirations SC: So what do you value most in life?
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 ; DD: I value my children and my grandchildren. My grandmother would say that is the interest on your principle. That is the truth. They are special. And another thing she would say is that is the reward you get for not killing your children: your grandchildren.
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 ; GE: See that’s the dividend.
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 ; SC: And what has made you feel the most artistic or complete in life? I’m talking about artistry in its most broad sense.
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 ; DD: Well I think I appreciate everything that I see. 0 910 Leadership, Wisdom, & ; Cultural Preservation—Respect for Age & ; Experience in the Jewish Community GE: I remember my grandmother lived to be, who I was very close with, lived to be 90/91, and I remember her saying, you know, when you get older, she said it feels like a dream. She said that so many years have passed, and she said it’s just hard to grasp it. And frankly, I already feel that way.
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 ; DD: Well, if you look back on what you’ve achieved over your lifetime, and you’re like, how did it happen.
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 ; GE: Right, right. And also, it feels so compressed because it feels like it wasn’t all that long ago that my children were little. Not long ago, I was a young bride. And you know, so many years have passed.
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 ; DD: And you see the young people growing up and having children, and you wonder.
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 ; SC: And I worry that they don’t value the wisdom of us as we get older.
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 ; DD: I think that’s a problem with our culture. We don’t appreciate the older people. I mean, other cultures appreciate them, but they don’t think that we are very smart. That we haven’t experienced life, that they are the only ones experiencing it. 0 MovingImage Dolores Delin talks about her close relationship with her grandmother and how she encouraged Dolores to be independent and resilient. Those traits were very important later in Dolores’s life when she opened an up-scale women’s clothing store in Pottsville. Dolores supported Arnold in his leadership roles at the synagogue in his business and, later, the Association. Dolores Delin, June 16, 2014 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Okay, so this is an interview with the Delins, and it is June 16, 2014, and this is tape number 4. GAIL EISENBERG: So, we remember, Dolores, last time you had told us about your grandmother and some of the sweet memories that you had and if you wanted to share with us about that she always wanted you to be independent. DOLORES DELIN: Right, right. As I said, my grandmother and I were very close, and we were, and when I got married, she pulled me aside and she said 'look, Dolores, every woman should have her own knipple.' And by that she meant every woman should have her own money. And so with that, she gave me a one hundred dollar bill. And she said 'put it away, Arnold doesn't have to know about it, and if you want anything--' Now if we think back, I'm married 65 years, $100 was a lot of money. So I put it away, and didn't say anything to Arnold about it, and we went on our honeymoon, and we went to Niagara Falls, we were traveling around. And at the Falls, Arnold loses all of our money, all of our Travelers Checks and everything was in Travelers Checks, and he doesn't have anything. And he found out when he went to pay the bill, and he wanted to stay at this fancy hotel. And he goes to pay the bill, and he doesn't have any money, and no credit cards. In those days, we used Travelers Checks, that was it. He didn't know what to do and he was stressing, and I said, 'don't worry about it,' and I turned around and I pulled out this hundred dollar bill. And ever since then he's been looking for the knipple. And there is one, and I tell my son to have one and I tell my daughter to have one. My daughter's not married, but in any young woman, I always say it is very important, for every person, man or woman, to have a little independence, to have a little money put aside so that you don't have to don't have to account to anybody for it. And that was my grandmother's philosophy. SC: So maybe we should talk a little bit about your children, and then go on to more business? GE: You know what? I don't think because, yeah, I don't think there is really anything else with the business per say. Well, you know what? Maybe-- SC: You go ahead. GE: One thing that I was just thinking about is as the wife, tell us a little bit about what it was like having first the business and then also with the apparel, with the trade association. So what was your role as the wife? DD: Well, my role as a wife was the, well how can I put it? The first thing in Arnold's life was the synagogue. He was very dedicated to the synagogue, and then he was very dedicated to his job, and then he was very dedicated to his family. There was no room for all of this at one time, so the synagogue, his business, and his family. So as a wife I was in charge of the house. And I was always supportive of Arnold and whatever he did, and all of the organizations that he was involved with, I was always there working behind him, writing his speeches, like everyone. You know, you don't stand up for the bows but you're there to be the showcase to be there. And that's just the way it was. I mean he was with the Association, I did whatever I had to do to make all of his members happy. And we gave, we never got the best rooms when we traveled, the president of the Association got the best rooms. We took whatever was leftover because that's the way he felt. He didn't feel it was his place to have the best, and so I just went along with it. GE: And how about in the factory? DD: In the factory, he ran the factory, and then one day, I wasn't working, this was before my working days, I thought that it would be nice to help him out, right? So I said to him, " I'll come down and I'll work in the factory." I had two small children at home. So what could I do? I didn't know how to sew, so he put me in the folding department to fold the blouses and box them up. So while I'm working, I'm folding and I'm thinking 'what are we going to have for dinner, what are the kids doing, and I had a housekeeper in, is she doing this, is she cleaning the bathroom, is she doing what she has to do while I'm here at work.' I happen to go inside to call and make sure that she takes something out of the freezer for dinner. So I walk into the office and I call her up to take something, and he walks in and he says 'if you think you are going to stay on the telephone all day long and work, I don't need you here.' I said, 'you know something, you're absolutely right, you don't need me here.' And that was the last thing I had to do with the factory. GE: Did you do anything while you were at home, write books or anything.? DD: No, no. GE: So it was really that your involvement began later with the Association. DD: My involvement really with the Association was minimal. Arnold was up front. He did everything with the Association, he was negotiating, he did everything. Mine was just social. I had absolutely nothing to do with the Association. I had my own thing at the time. I was busy with my own business, doing my own thing, and the children and their organizations and I was very busy. GE: Right, right, so by the time he really was the Executive Director of the Association, DD: In the 70s. GE: Okay, so by that time, you already were in business. DD: I was working. Right. I was in business and I was working and I was just going along for the ride. GE: Right, okay. I think, do you have anything? SC: Yeah, I think I'll ask-- DD: Two children. SC: Two children, yes. DD: Robin used to work for, she's a licensed, she does licensing for Madame Alexandra Dolls, they're collectibles. I don't know if you are familiar with them. And my son, Scott, who is the Vice President of Sales with Superior Linen. Three grandchildren, Ariana, who is in public relations in Florida. She is an equestrian, and she writes for an equestrian magazine. GE: Oh, isn't that something. DD: Yeah, and my grandson, the middle one, Noah, he just graduated from Ithaca, and he's doing freelance work for Walt Disney. GE: Wow, as a freelance writing? Graphics? DD: He's also in public relations. He took an internship with them in the summertime and it led to this freelance job because they are not hiring right now. He's looking for a position. And Benjamin is the baby, and he is still in high school. He's a sweetheart. SC: He's supposed to be a baby. Benjamin's the baby. DD: He's the baby. SC: In the Bible. GE: That's right. SC: And what was the grandson that was in Ithaca? DD: Noah. I'll tell you a funny story about Noah. For my grandchildren, when I heard that my daughter-in-law was pregnant, I love to work with my hands, I do a lot of needlepoint and quilting and all that kind of stuff, so I made a quilt for Ariana. And then when they told me that Beth was pregnant again, I didn't know what it was going to be. And I said to Arnold, I went into the store and I saw this print of Noah's Ark, and I said to him, "Gee this is pretty, blow it up for me, I'm going to transfer that onto a quilt with Noah's Ark and all of the animals, and so on and so forth." And then I told the kids, "I'm making you a quilt," but I didn't say what it was yet, "I'm making another one, I'm busy making another quilt. While you're cooking, I'm sewing." And so, Beth called me up one day, "Well Mom, we decided on a name," she said, "Well, it's going to be a boy." And I said, 'Aw, that's wonderful." "And we're going to name him Noah." Well I just got the chills because I had no idea what Beth was having. GE: You know, I met your youngest, Benjamin, not long ago they had in the synagogue a program with Klezmer Dancing, and he was there and he is a sweetheart. A very, very nice young man. He was with some young girl ; maybe there were just friends doing the thing, but I'm just saying that they were adorable. And I remember asking, who is that, and someone said Ben Delin, Benjamin Delin. DD: Yeah, they had a nanny for all three children because Beth, you know, is a nurse practitioner. GE: Oh, no, I didn't know that. DD: Yeah, neurology nurse practitioner. And so they had a nanny for the children and in fact Beth was the RN at Lehigh. She was in charge of the emergency. It was terrible, she worked all kinds of crazy hours. And she said to me, 'Mom, I'm thinking about going back to school to become a nurse practitioner, but it's going to be a couple of years.' I said, 'well, honey, what difference is it going to make. The years are going to pass whether you do it or don't do it, so you might as well do it.' 'Well, what am I going to do with the kids?' I said, 'I'll tell you what, I promise you that one day a week, every single Wednesday you can count on me. I will be there. The rest of the time you will have to figure it out, but every Wednesday, I'll give you every Wednesday.' So that's what happened. I gave her every Wednesday. And one Wednesday, I am driving down the highway, I had a Jeep at the time, and I came to Kutztown, and we were stopped. I those days we didn't have cell phones. How am I going to get to her? I got out of the car and I ran up and down, 'does anyone have a telephone in their car?' So nobody had anything so I'm sitting in the car and I'm waiting and time is passing, and time is passing, and traffic moved just a little, and there is a bank and a farm. And I was thinking, to hell with this, I'm going over to the bank, I have a Jeep, I saw them do it on television. I went over this bank, through this cornfield and around and got to the house cause my daughter-in-law had to go to Philadelphia. Now they have a fence there. Every time I drive by, I see the fence, and they should put my name on it. Or I should pay for the fence. And when she graduated, they gave her a bouquet of flowers, and she gave me a bouquet of flowers cause she knew that she could count on me, you know, once a week. Through thick and thin, she knew I'd be there. GE: Well that's really nice. SC: So what do you value most in life? DD: I value my children and my grandchildren. My grandmother would say that is the interest on your principle. That is the truth. They are special. And another thing she would say is that is the reward you get for not killing your children: your grandchildren. GE: See that's the dividend. SC: And what has made you feel the most artistic or complete in life? I'm talking about artistry in its most broad sense. DD: Well I think I appreciate everything that I see. I mean, living out here I just love. I always tell my children, when I get old and senile, just put an electric fence like they do for the cows and just let me wander around because I just love it. And I see a lot of beauty in a lot of things. I'm driving down, when we first moved here, I remember, when you go to Shenandoah from here, there is one area where the ice forms over, goes down to the road. And my girlfriend who came from Shenandoah, we were driving up and said 'oh, my god, this is gorgeous,' and she didn't even know what I was talking about. She was just driving by and didn't see it. I just see the beauty that surrounds you, and I'm so thankful for it. SC: I always love that drive. GE: When you say Shenandoah, is that-- SC: Into the hills. And the Blue Ridge Parkway, and what's the other one? It goes into North Carolina. DD: Oh, you're talking about a different area. I'm talking about Shenandoah which is a little town from Pottsville, Flackville, Shenandoah. But I know what you're talking about. This area, when you go up there, it is all mountainous. Right now, you'll see all of the windmills are up there, but the mountains in the winter, the ice just forms from running off of the mountains and it is just a cascade of beautiful ice waterfalls. It's really so pretty. SC: I'm going to make a note to go there. DD: In the wintertime right.? SC: Yes. DD: Now you'll see all of the windmills, all of the windmills are across the skyline now. GE: So a little bit you're saying is that you just love the natural beauty. DD: I do, yeah, I really do. I like everything. I'm thankful to be alive. I can't believe that 85 years have gone. That's the sad part of it all. SC: Well, thank you. DD: You're welcome. GE: I remember my grandmother lived to be, who I was very close with, lived to be 90/91, and I remember her saying, you know, when you get older, she said it feels like a dream. She said that so many years have passed, and she said it's just hard to grasp it. And frankly, I already feel that way. DD: Well, if you look back on what you've achieved over your lifetime, and you're like, how did it happen. GE: Right, right. And also, it feels so compressed because it feels like it wasn't all that long ago that my children were little. Not long ago, I was a young bride. And you know, so many years have passed. DD: And you see the young people growing up and having children, and you wonder. SC: And I worry that they don't value the wisdom of us as we get older. DD: I think that's a problem with our culture. We don't appreciate the older people. I mean, other cultures appreciate them, but they don't think that we are very smart. That we haven't experienced life, that they are the only ones experiencing it. GE: I'm not sure, I might just don't know enough, maybe, Sue does, I don't know if that was always true in America but I certainly think since the 60s. SC: Yes, they had been, it has been since the 60s. GE: Right, right, and very exaggerated. SC: Very exaggerated. GE: It's almost like anyone above the age of 30, don't-- SC: Don't trust anyone over 27 is the stigma historical statement. GE: Right, is that really was it? DD: You know I think it's further back. I think when the immigrants came over, and the next generation spoke English, they looked back at their parents as griner [Yiddish for greenhorn or new immigrant]. Now my grandmother spoke three languages, Russian, Polish, English, and Hebrew, and Yiddish, five languages. And yet, when she would come and visit, people would talk down to her. And knowingly, it bothered me, and she had a sense of humor, and I said she was a cook and a baker, she made challah every Friday night. And one of my friends was a doctor, and his hobby was making challahs. So they came to visit, and one day he came to visit, and my grandmother and I made rugelach. "Oh," he says, "Fanny, these are delicious. I'll teach you how to make challahs, if you'll teach me how to make rugelach." She says, 'that's a very good idea.' We're not giving her credit for what she can do and also speaking down to them, and I think that's a part of it. The respect, you know, what they brought with them when they came. SC: I think you're right. DD: Yeah, and then you had a college education, and your parents didn't have a college education. GE: Even the first generation, my parents' family, first generation did not go to college, but nonetheless they were English speakers. DD: That's right. GE: And so it's interesting, my father's side, the family came one generation earlier but my father's father remained in Europe, my family went through the Holocaust. My dad was the only survivor. When he came here, he really had much less in common with his cousins. They were Americans, and they in many ways do look down upon you, but the aunts and uncles adored him because my father knew their culture. My father could speak their language-- DD: They had shared memories. GE: They had a lot of shared memories. So as much as they loved their own children, of course they love their children and are proud of their children, but their children it was much more of a divide because they were Americans. So it was interesting, he always did have much more of a relationship with a lot of the aunts and the uncles than he did with the cousins. DD: That's a shame, but that is the way that it is. That's the way it goes. GE: Now, are we done? Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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00:19:36
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Title
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Dolores Delin, June 16, 2014
Description
An account of the resource
Dolores Delin talks about her close relationship with her grandmother and how she encouraged Dolores to be independent and resilient. Those traits were very important later in Dolores’s life when she opened an up-scale women’s clothing store in Pottsville. Dolores supported Arnold in his leadership roles at the synagogue in his business and, later, the Association.
Identifier
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LVTNT-08
Date
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2014-06-16
Format
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video
Creator
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Publisher
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Rights
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Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.