2
10
34
-
https://textile.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/906ddf86956442e7ba5d8ca2e86f1204.png
7c5c5d9697dc6bbb009299d4877009b2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Kathy Katzman
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-19.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 May 26, 2016 Kathy Katzman, May 26, 2016 LVTNT-19 18:49 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Kathy Katzman Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 KatzmanKathy_20160526 1.0:|17(2)|34(13)|53(5)|74(2)|91(5)|110(5)|129(5)|146(10)|167(11)|202(3)|233(4)|262(5)|289(4)|306(7)|331(8)|354(7)|383(16)|414(10)|431(13) 0 https://youtu.be/cs1hVW_e4fY YouTube video 0 Introduction—Kathy Katzman's Childhood & ; Education SC: Today is May 26, 2016, and so would you give me your full name, with your maiden name and where you have lived? 
 ; 
 ; KK: My name is Kathy Lackritz Katzman. I was born June 21, 1952, in New York City. I lived actually in Scarsdale until I was five, at which time my parents divorced, and then we moved to New York City, to Manhattan. And I lived there until fifth grade when we moved to Philadelphia and graduated from Friends Select School in Philadelphia and went to Boston University. I studied to be a teacher. When I first graduated, we got married. Seth and I got married right after I graduated college, and we moved to Schuylkill Haven-Pennsylvania. When you talk about culture shock, here is a girl who lived in New York, Philadelphia, and Boston and ended up in Schuylkill Haven, Pennsylvania, with I think was a population, maybe, 2000. 0 89 Early Childhood—Careers & ; Childrearing KK: I got a job teaching first grade in Tamaqua, which was about 40 minutes from Schuylkill Haven, and I taught for a year and really did not like it. I decided it wasn't for me. And at that point, we moved to Lebanon, Pennsylvania, and I got a job working at Sears in the women, the lingerie department. And we lived in Lebanon for a little over a year and then decided to move to Allentown. And I decided that I was going to go back to school. I got accepted to Lehigh for a Masters in reading, but soon after that discovered I was pregnant. So, I never went back to school, and I stayed home with my children. We have three sons who are now thirty-six, forty, and thirty-two. 0 189 Volunteering in the Allentown & ; Jewish Communities KK: [A]nd I did a lot of volunteer work. I was very involved with the PTO at the elementary school. I was very involved with different Jewish organizations, and I always seemed to be the treasurer for these organizations. So we belonged to Temple Beth El, and I was the treasurer for the sisterhood for many years. And I used to go into the Temple all the time, and about six and a half years ago, I was in there, and I discovered that their bookkeeper was becoming the Executive Director, and they were looking for a bookkeeper. I said, “Oh! I might be interested in that.” And they hired me! So I've been working as a bookkeeper at Temple Beth El for about six and a half years, perfect job-- Monday, Wednesday, Friday, takes me three minutes to get to work and it's a wonderful environment, it still gives me some time off. 0 261 Children & ; Grandchildren SC: So what are your children’s names, and what are they doing now?
 ; 
 ; KK: Ok. Adam is our oldest, he’s the one who’s 40, and he's an attorney, and he lives in Southeast Florida. His wife is also an attorney, and they have an almost 3-year-old son and a one-year-old daughter. So after three girls, three boys, I got to have a girl, well four boys, if you include the grandson. And our middle son, Jared, the one who had the web hosting business, has a Masters of Engineering and Computer Science. He lives in Denver, Colorado, and he's the director of technology at a private school there. He’s actually chaperoning a trip in China right now. And our youngest son, Glenn, lives in Oakland, California, and he’s a history teacher. He took a while to decide what he wanted to do. He graduated in political science and history, and first he wanted to teach, and then he decided he wanted to go to law school and he ended up with a full scholarship to law school in San Diego which is how we went to California, he went for one semester and said “I hate law school, I don't want to be a lawyer,” left law school got his Masters of Education, and he teaches at a charter school in Oakland. And neither Jared nor Glenn is married, unfortunately. 0 372 Family History KK: I believe that both sides of my family were from Russia originally. My mother's name was Vera Warsaw, her father, Jack Warsaw, was actually the founder of Phoenix Clothes here in Allentown. It was originally a silk mill, and he turned it into a factory. I believe he came here very, very, young. His name was originally Warshowsky, and he changed it to Warsaw. I really don't know anything about his parents at all. They were long gone by the time I was on the scene. Her mother was named Maddie Newmark, again I believe she was born in the United States, but I'm not really sure, and I don't really know about her parents either. My father was Morton Lackritz, and his parents were Joseph and Mildred, it was Mildred Becker originally. I think they were both born in the United States, I'm not positive, but the grandparents were from Russia, and that grandfather was also in the garment business, but he was in the garment business in New York. 0 532 Kathy's Grandfather—Jack Warsaw & ; Phoenix Clothes GE: Let’s see. So Jack Warsaw, he bought a silk mill here.
 ; 
 ; KK: Yeah, well, Phoenix Clothes was originally a silk mill, but I'm not sure exactly the transition.
 ; 
 ; GE: And do you know what they made?
 ; 
 ; KK: They made men's suits. They were very high quality, high-end men's suits.
 ; 
 ; GE: Do you know who he sold it to? 
 ; 
 ; KK: He didn't sell it.
 ; 
 ; SK: He did sell it. He sold it to Genesco.
 ; 
 ; KK: Oh, he did? Ok, you see, he knows more than I do. Yeah, he had a partner, Nat Berkowitz, was one of his partners, and there was another one I think, I don't remember any more. 0 740 Kathy's Inspirations and Values SC: So, what makes you feel most creative? 
 ; 
 ; KK: When you're saying creative, you mean fulfilled? 
 ; 
 ; SC: Yes, that would be another…
 ; 
 ; KK: Ok... I would say my relationships. Again, my family is my number one relationship, but my friends, too. My friends are very important to me. And loyalty, but again my family is definitely number one.
 ; 
 ; SC: And that’s what you value most?
 ; 
 ; KK: Yes.
 ; 
 ; SC: Thank you. So anything else either one of you thought of that you’d like to say? 0 796 How the Business Changed Seth KK: Seth was saying about it, being in the garment business changing him and I've known him since he was eighteen. We met when I was sixteen and he was eighteen. We’re about to have our forty-third anniversary, and as he said about being quiet, he was a very quiet, introverted young man. Once he went into business you can’t be that way, and definitely he changed his personality. 0 824 Meeting Seth/Seth's Education SC: Did you meet in Allentown?
 ; 
 ; KK: No, I was actually on a teen tour across the United States. Seth had just graduated high school and he was driving across the country with a friend of his, whose girlfriend was on my teen tour. And that was how we met. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Is that what inspired one of you or both of you to go to school in Boston? 
 ; 
 ; KK: Me. He was at Brandeis, and that's why I went to Boston. 0 MovingImage Kathy Katzman talks about living in New York, Philadelphia and Boston before she married Seth. Their first home together was in Schuylkill-Haven Pennsylvania, a community of 2,000. They then moved to Lebanon, Pennsylvania, still very small, and stayed there for a year before moving to Allentown. Coincidently, Kathy was familiar with Allentown because her grandfather was a founder of Phoenix Clothes located in the Lehigh Valley, which made high-end men’s suits. Kathy was a stay-at-home mom, active in the Jewish organizations and at the local elementary school.
 ; Interview with Kathy Katzman, May 26, 2016 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is May 26, 2016, and so would you give me your full name, with your maiden name and where you have lived? KATHY KATZMAN: My name is Kathy Lackritz Katzman. I was born June 21, 1952, in New York City. I lived actually in Scarsdale until I was five, at which time my parents divorced, and then we moved to New York City, to Manhattan. And I lived there until fifth grade when we moved to Philadelphia and graduated from Friends Select School in Philadelphia and went to Boston University. I studied to be a teacher. When I first graduated, we got married. Seth and I got married right after I graduated college, and we moved to Schuylkill Haven-Pennsylvania. When you talk about culture shock, here is a girl who lived in New York, Philadelphia, and Boston and ended up in Schuylkill Haven, Pennsylvania, with I think was a population, maybe, 2000. I got a job teaching first grade in Tamaqua, which was about 40 minutes from Schuylkill Haven, and I taught for a year and really did not like it. I decided it wasn't for me. And at that point, we moved to Lebanon, Pennsylvania, and I got a job working at Sears in the women, the lingerie department. And we lived in Lebanon for a little over a year and then decided to move to Allentown. And I decided that I was going to go back to school. I got accepted to Lehigh for a Masters in reading, but soon after that discovered I was pregnant. So, I never went back to school, and I stayed home with my children. We have three sons who are now thirty-six, forty, and thirty-two. And I worked, I taught in a nursery school for a year or two when my youngest son was in nursery school. And then I really did not have a paying job for a number of years until our middle son started his own web hosting business when he was fifteen, and I became his bookkeeper,I guess you would say. And I worked from home for quite a while, and I did a lot of volunteer work. I was very involved with the PTO at the elementary school. I was very involved with different Jewish organizations, and I always seemed to be the treasurer for these organizations. So we belonged to Temple Beth El, and I was the treasurer for the sisterhood for many years. And I used to go into the Temple all the time, and about six and a half years ago, I was in there, and I discovered that their bookkeeper was becoming the Executive Director, and they were looking for a bookkeeper. I said, "Oh! I might be interested in that." And they hired me! So I've been working as a bookkeeper at Temple Beth El for about six and a half years, perfect job-- Monday, Wednesday, Friday, takes me three minutes to get to work and it's a wonderful environment, it still gives me some time off. SC: So what are your children's names, and what are they doing now? KK: Ok. Adam is our oldest, he's the one who's 40, and he's an attorney, and he lives in Southeast Florida. His wife is also an attorney, and they have an almost 3-year-old son and a one-year-old daughter. So after three girls, three boys, I got to have a girl, well four boys, if you include the grandson. And our middle son, Jared, the one who had the web hosting business, has a Masters of Engineering and Computer Science. He lives in Denver, Colorado, and he's the director of technology at a private school there. He's actually chaperoning a trip in China right now. And our youngest son, Glenn, lives in Oakland, California, and he's a history teacher. He took a while to decide what he wanted to do. He graduated in political science and history, and first he wanted to teach, and then he decided he wanted to go to law school and he ended up with a full scholarship to law school in San Diego which is how we went to California, he went for one semester and said "I hate law school, I don't want to be a lawyer," left law school got his Masters of Education, and he teaches at a charter school in Oakland. And neither Jared nor Glenn is married, unfortunately. SC: So will you go back in your family and tell the names and where they're from, and what you know about your family as far back as anyone has told you? KK: I believe that both sides of my family were from Russia originally. My mother's name was Vera Warsaw, her father, Jack Warsaw, was actually the founder of Phoenix Clothes here in Allentown. It was originally a silk mill, and he turned it into a factory. I believe he came here very, very, young. His name was originally Warshowsky, and he changed it to Warsaw. I really don't know anything about his parents at all. They were long gone by the time I was on the scene. Her mother was named Maddie Newmark, again I believe she was born in the United States, but I'm not really sure, and I don't really know about her parents either. My father was Morton Lackritz, and his parents were Joseph and Mildred, it was Mildred Becker originally. I think they were both born in the United States, I'm not positive, but the grandparents were from Russia, and that grandfather was also in the garment business, but he was in the garment business in New York. He invested very heavily in some sort of new zipper. Zippers were very new in the world back then. We're probably talking about, I'd say the late thirties, maybe, and ended up going bankrupt, with this big investment. And my father had worked with him briefly, and I'm not sure what my grandfather ended up doing after that, but my father went out of the garment business altogether and became an electronics salesman. That's what he did for his whole life. And unfortunately, I don't know very much about the family history at all further back. SC: So I have a question, I'll ask you the same questions, but maybe, do you have some business questions or questions about the--? GAIL EISENBERG: So one quick thing, Lackritz, can you just spell that? KK: L-A-C-K-R-I-T-Z. GE: Let's see. So Jack Warsaw, he bought a silk mill here. KK: Yeah, well, Phoenix Clothes was originally a silk mill, but I'm not sure exactly the transition. GE: And do you know what they made? KK: They made men's suits. They were very high quality, high-end men's suits. GE: Do you know who he sold it to? KK: He didn't sell it. SETH KATZMAN: He did sell it. He sold it to Genesco. KK: Oh, he did? Ok, you see, he knows more than I do. Yeah, he had a partner, Nat Berkowitz, was one of his partners, and there was another one I think, I don't remember any more. GE: The only one that I heard of who made suits is Billera? KK: They made slacks ; in fact, they had their factory in my grandfather's building. GE: Oh, isn't that interesting! SK: Yeah, they knew each other pretty well. GE: Ok. We're hoping somebody here actually has a connection with Billera, that hopefully when somebody comes into town, we're going to get an opportunity to interview them. KK: I'm right that they made slacks, right? SK: Yeah. They might have made other things, but they were known for their slacks. GE: How about Mort Levy? What did he make? SK: Mort Levy had done different things. I'm trying to think what he did. I thought he was in sportswear, but I'm not sure exactly, to tell you the truth. Pants. Yeah, pants. That's what he made. KK: Roberta Penn might know, that was her uncle. SK: But it was pants, that's definitely what he did, I remember. I was at his factory. GE: So all you know is that your grandfather did Phoenix Clothes, do you know what years he was in business? KK: I think he started it in the twenties. SK: Her grandfather started the business but didn't start in that business, he made vests and different things. I don't know the name of his businesses, but he was in business in another business making vests. He got together with-- KK: Nat Berkowitz. Nat Berkowitz. I don't remember. SK: There was three men, I don't remember the names, they got together, he was really the financial one. The three of them got together. I think it was in 1950. GE: And they stayed in business until when? SK: They sold it to Genesco, which was a big company that bought that company. KK: In the early eighties, maybe? Because my grandfather still had his office there for years. SK: He had a big plant. He was really big. GE: So when you came here, your grandfather was still here. KK: Oh yeah. GE: Wow. KK: It was sort of funny because as a child I would come here occasionally because of my grandfather. My grandfather actually did not live here, though. My grandmother refused to leave New York and move to Allentown, so he would live here during the week and go back to New York on weekends. GE: We have certainly spoken with many who, at least for a temporary time, for six months or a year-- KK: She never moved here. Ever. And then she would go to Florida for the winters and he would go down to Florida. GE: Thank you. SC: So, what makes you feel most creative? KK: When you're saying creative, you mean fulfilled? SC: Yes, that would be another-- KK: Ok... I would say my relationships. Again, my family is my number one relationship, but my friends, too. My friends are very important to me. And loyalty, but again my family is definitely number one. SC: And that's what you value most? KK: Yes. SC: Thank you. So anything else either one of you thought of that you'd like to say? KK: Seth was saying about it, being in the garment business changing him and I've known him since he was eighteen. We met when I was sixteen and he was eighteen. We're about to have our forty-third anniversary, and as he said about being quiet, he was a very quiet, introverted young man. Once he went into business you can't be that way, and definitely he changed his personality. SC: Did you meet in Allentown? KK: No, I was actually on a teen tour across the United States. Seth had just graduated high school and he was driving across the country with a friend of his, whose girlfriend was on my teen tour. And that was how we met. GE: Is that what inspired one of you or both of you to go to school in Boston? KK: Me. He was at Brandeis, and that's why I went to Boston. SC: But what happened to you, that's why you go to a liberal arts college? SK: Actually what really happened, I applied to a number of schools. Actually my brother and sister both went to Boston University. My brother actually graduated, my sister didn't because she had some health issues. But I figured I'd probably go to BU or something. But what happened, my brother, when I went up to see him, he said: "let's go see the colleges." So we went around, and he said: "let's see Brandeis!" And I said, "Wow, this is a nice school! I'll just apply here!" I had no idea about Brandeis. I really didn't. I had no clue about Brandeis. It looked like a nice school, so I just applied. What happened is I never went back. They wanted to have an interview, so I said: "Ok, we'll have an interview." And the interview was in Philly, so my mother drove me to Philadelphia. I had the interview, and I was sick as a dog that day. I remember, I had a great interview with the guy, so he was asking what I was doing. So one summer, it was my junior year, the summer of my junior year, my friend and I decided I wasn't going back to camp. I said, we're gonna do a project so we decided we were gonna build a one-link particle accelerator. It's like an atom smasher. It's one of these crazy things you see in Scientific America. We're looking at it, and we said, "we can do this!" We're looking at it, and I said, "Oh, we'll copy this," so we go to [unintelligible], they lend us some equipment. This is something that would never happen today. So we ended up pulling this stuff off, you know we made this thing work. You know, it was in my basement. KK: For years, it was in your basement. SK: Yeah! So we spent all summer doing this, we made this thing work, so at the interview, I don't know if the guy knew any science or not, but I was explaining what we did this summer, and the guy was like fascinated! We must have been in there at least an hour or more talking about this particle accelerator. I didn't think anything about it, you know, I knew Brandeis was hard to get into, so I didn't expect to get into Brandeis anyways. And I had good grades ; I graduated probably in the top 10% of my high school class. I never killed myself in high school ; in fact, I was bored in high school. I found it very boring. It was a public school. Like I used to go down and complain, you know because they stuck me in these classes, I said, "isn't there a better class? What happened?" I guess they had filled up the APs, and I couldn't get in, so I was stuck in the regular classes. I didn't even have to show up, and I could get an A. So I did lots of extracurricular things ; I always did different things. So I applied to schools. I knew I was going to get into Boston University. University of Pittsburgh I applied to as a safety school. Tufts was another one I thought I'd try to get in to. KK: And Columbia, you said, right? SK: Columbia did me a favor, because I went to Columbia, had a horrible interview with them. I didn't like the school, but I still went. So it's just as well I didn't get in. And then, for whatever reason, I thought I'd go to BU, and BU accepted me. And I think Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh, the guy said "Why do you want to come here?" I looked at him and said [unintelligible]. He just said to me, "You're not going here." He looked at my parents, and after the interview, he said, "You're not going here." He said to me, "You're in. Why are you gonna go here?" KK: And the funny thing is when we took Jared to look at schools, and he wanted computer science, and we took him to Brandeis and met with the head of the computer science department, and he said to Jared you don't want to come here, we're not gonna have what you want and what you need. GE: But that's wonderful that the school was that frank. SK: But Brandeis is an interesting school because it has a lot of high powered people there, it's very liberal artsy, it was Boston, it was 1968. KK: Susan Sachs was in his classroom, from the Weather Underground. SK: I knew Susan Sachs. I sat next to her in Spanish class. GE: That was your father's mother, was Maddie--what was her last name? Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
00:18:48
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Kathy Katzman, May 26, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
Kathy Katzman talks about living in New York, Philadelphia and Boston before she married Seth. Their first home together was in Schuylkill-Haven Pennsylvania, a community of 2,000. They then moved to Lebanon, Pennsylvania, still very small, and stayed there for a year before moving to Allentown. Coincidently, Kathy was familiar with Allentown because her grandfather was a founder of Phoenix Clothes located in the Lehigh Valley, which made high-end men’s suits. Kathy was a stay-at-home mom, active in the Jewish organizations and at the local elementary school.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LVTNT-19
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-05-26
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.
-
https://textile.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/6a1f59a3ad27ee751ee8c7dd3651f981.png
a1e834c6ca3eda45268a3a1f41209a9b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Larry Hirsch
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-12.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 June 23, 2015 Larry Hirsch, June 23, 2015 LVTNT-12 2:00:58 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Larry Hirsch Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 HirschLarry_20150623.mp4 1.0:|17(13)|30(13)|41(14)|54(5)|67(3)|80(16)|93(3)|104(9)|117(6)|132(18)|145(14)|162(3)|175(14)|190(5)|207(7)|222(2)|233(10)|262(2)|279(9)|298(4)|309(18)|320(15)|339(9)|350(5)|361(7)|374(7)|387(3)|402(2)|419(15)|434(17)|453(6)|462(3)|479(4)|492(8)|507(8)|520(7)|539(10)|552(3)|569(10)|588(3)|599(16)|612(4)|629(4)|642(3)|657(8)|668(18)|683(2)|692(15)|703(9)|714(15)|733(7)|744(9)|755(15)|768(10)|783(2)|802(16)|817(9)|834(4)|851(6)|866(9)|883(10)|900(5)|915(16)|928(14)|947(10)|956(13)|969(8)|988(3)|1001(7)|1018(6)|1033(8)|1046(10)|1059(12)|1072(18)|1083(14)|1098(6)|1113(3)|1126(7)|1147(14)|1162(4)|1177(8)|1194(13)|1211(3)|1236(12)|1253(14)|1264(5)|1285(14)|1294(16)|1309(8)|1322(3)|1345(3)|1360(8)|1371(16)|1384(15)|1397(11)|1416(16)|1429(5)|1448(17)|1467(12)|1484(10)|1497(5)|1512(16)|1527(5)|1538(12)|1555(7)|1576(10)|1593(14)|1612(4)|1627(9)|1638(12)|1657(12)|1678(4)|1693(4)|1710(13)|1725(9)|1740(13)|1757(10)|1770(16)|1783(14)|1818(8)|1837(3) 0 https://youtu.be/ilb62eem9i4 YouTube video 0 Introduction—Larry Hirsch SC: Today is June 23, 2015. So would you just talk about yourself, when you were born, where you were born, etc. And then go back in your family history as far back as you know because it’s really helpful for us to see the patterns of how people came to be in the textile industry. 
 ; 
 ; LH: Well, I was born August 3, 1945. I won’t go into my whole long history, but I was adopted. I was born in Canada ok so I pretty much starting with the beginning. 0 48 Father & ; Grandfather—Emigration and Family Business LH: My grandfather came to this country from Hungary in the early 1900s. He was I believe either 15 or 16 years old ; came here by himself. Couldn't speak English. He was trained as a tailor. So for a number of years, he traveled around the country working in different cities as a tailor. It's funny how, he didn't talk about it very much and unfortunately if I had been smarter than I over the years I would asked him a lot more questions than I ever did, you know, but somehow and I don't know exactly how he ended up in Bethlehem and that's where he met my grandmother, who had also come from Hungary. And then in 19 . . . oh my father was born in 1918 in Philadelphia. And then at one point they moved to Allentown. They apparently lived in many different locations in the Lehigh Valley. 0 227 Hirsch's Parents—Mylo Manufacturing LH: [A]nd my father then was a salesman for the selling the uniforms. And he also worked nights at Bethlehem Steel just to try to make a living. As far as I can remember he somehow met someone who manufactured as he called it children's sunsuits. You don’t hear that word any more whatever sunsuits were and the guy said to him if you open a factory, I will supply you with work. So, of course, my father didn’t have any money, and I believe he borrowed some money from someone he knew. In fact, I’ll include that, I believe his name. . . They referred to him as Doc Shaffer, his real name was Ben Shaffer, Benjamin Shaffer. [Could not confirm correct spelling of name] He was very big in textile machinery. He bought and sold textile machinery, apparently had made a lot of money during the Second World War, and my father and his son grew up together. His son was my father's best friend, and I believe that's where he borrowed the money from, it was from Doc Shaffer. He opened the factory with my grandfather and my mother, and that's really how he got his start in the garment business. 0 384 The '50s: Manufacturing Children's Polos LH: I think after a certain period of time my father at some point met another gentleman, and they went into business together. And they started manufacturing their own line of children's what they called back then Polo shirts. They were basically T-shirts, but fancier T-shirts, pullover, and they had a sales office in New York City they had sales reps all over the country. At one time, they had their own knitting, they would knit their own fabric, and it was fairly large, it grew into a fairly large business. But I think what kind of doomed them was the Korean War. Where you know back then, you would take a position in . . .cotton that you used for knitting, but when the war came, you know, the price of cotton either went through the roof or whatever so eventually they closed up that business. 0 521 A Lucky Break—Renting to Western Electric LH: [I]n business luck always plays, in some cases, a big role. And in order for him to get financing for the building he had heard of this little company that was looking for space called Western Electric. So we went to the bank he talked to the people at Western Electric, and they told him if you buy the building we will rent X amount of space from you in the building. So with that in hand he went to the bank, but at that point the bank said to him at first they said no they won't loan him the money. Because he didn't have really much collateral for it and they spoke for certain period of time, and eventually my father thanked him for his time, got up to leave, and the guy said to him, “Wait a minute,” he said, “I'm going to give you the loan.” My father said, “Well why? you just told me . . .” He said, “Based on talking to you,” he said, “I like your attitude, and I think you're going to be a success.” They gave him the loan, and he bought this very large building, and Western Electric rented two floors in the building. 0 673 Contract Manufacturing in Philadelphia LH: So when they closed that up my father went back into contract manufacturing. And he worked primarily then for companies that made men's, and boy’s knit shirts, polo shirts whatever you want to call them. Those firms were primarily, well a couple of them were from Philadelphia, and the largest part of their business was sweaters. At that time, in Philadelphia was . . . first of all, manufacturing in Philadelphia was tremendous, tremendous. Especially sweaters, knitting sweaters in Philadelphia. So a lot of those firms then branched out to making what we called cut and sewn knitwear. I don't know exactly how my father ever came in contact with them. But what I always thought was interesting, he worked primarily for three firms, and they, the owners of the three firms, were all related, and they were competing with each other. So when someone from one of their firms came to the factory they were forbidden to go out on the floor because they didn't want someone stealing the ideas from the other companies he was working for. But my father became very successful during that time. 0 863 Early Family History SC: [W]hat names do you know of the family, even going back to Hungary? Do you know any of that information? Of the two families?
 ; 
 ; LH: As far as I know my grandfather had a sister. My grandfather, as far as I know, never went back to Hungary. And had little if any contact with his family after he came to this country. I don't know why. It just never happened. And I don’t know what happened to them. 
 ; 
 ; SC: Do you know their names, any of the names? 
 ; 
 ; LH: Well let's see, I was named after my grandfather's father his name was Leopold Hirsch, and the name Hirsch was the name that he came to this country with it wasn't a shortened version as a lot of people who were Hirsch might have been Hirshberg or Hirschfeld. It was just Hirsch. My grandmother came to this country with her whole family: parents, sisters, brothers, what have you. It's interesting, this is something that I found out not too long ago is that my grandmother's father was also a tailor. So then I start thinking, okay, well he was a tailor in Bethlehem so I think that's how my grandfather ended up meeting my grandmother. 0 1173 Mel Roth, Muhlenberg Alumnus LH: But at different times several of my mother's sisters or brothers lived with us. So, for instance, my uncle Mel, who went to Muhlenberg, he lived with us when he went to Muhlenberg. 
 ; 
 ; SC: What years did he go to Muhlenberg? 
 ; 
 ; LH: What year...hmm
 ; 
 ; SC: It was before ‘57. 
 ; 
 ; LH: Okay yeah, I might've been, I think I was less than 10 years old, I think. 
 ; 
 ; GE: So, the early 50s. 0 1392 Larry Hirsch's Adoption & ; "Butterbox Babies" LH: I was born in a maternity home in Canada, which became infamous. It was a baby mill. Mothers would go there to have their babies. A lot of the babies, if they were born not very healthy, they were killed. A lot of mothers were told that their babies died, and then the maternity home essentially sold them to someone else. So I believe it was in the late 40s a reporter kind of got wind of what was going on there and wrote a book and did a whole feature on. It was called Butterbox Babies, and they were . . . The reason that Butterbox, butter in those days was delivered in wooden box, and that's what they used to bury the babies in these little wooden boxes. So when my parents are looking to adopt, back then, first of all, if you were Jewish, it was very difficult to adopt a child that was not Jewish. So, of course then there were a very limited number of children available, but my Aunt Bea had seen an ad in the New York newspaper about this maternity home in Canada. She contacted the people there, had some correspondence with them then put my parents in touch with them, and that’s how my parents ended up with me. But eventually the home was closed, and because of what went on at that home all of the adoption laws in Canada and the United States were changed because of what happened there. So there was a book written, there was a movie made about Butterbox Babies. 0 1840 Hirsch's Childhood and Education SC: Could you talk a little bit about where you have lived, where you went to school, your education and then after your education any places you worked actually from the very beginning, paperboy if you did that, you know anything. 
 ; 
 ; LH: I grew up in Allentown. I went through the whole Allentown school system, and I went to the Fashion Institute of Technology in New York City - which, back then, was a two-year school. And they had their major course was apparel design, but they had a small course in apparel management and engineering, which is what I took. 0 1920 Early Work Experiences SC: So if you would talk a little bit about your work history. Anything that you did from before you became a business mogul as an adult. Any steps that you took that will be helpful to us. 
 ; 
 ; LH: Well primarily, every summer I worked at the factory doing odd jobs, worked in the cutting room, worked in the shipping department but what's interesting my real interest growing up was art. Then in high school I took art classes, there was an art teacher then his name was Jim Musselman, I don't know if you have ever heard of him?
 ; 
 ; GE: Musselman Advertising? 
 ; 
 ; LH: Yes, very well known, not only teacher, but and as an artist himself in the Lehigh Valley, and initially that's really what I wanted to do I wanted to go into commercial art, something like that. But I think when I explored it more I realized that it wouldn't be easy to make a living. 0 2049 Adulthood—Marriage and Children SC: And can you talk about your family life from the time that you became an adult and your family?
 ; 
 ; LH: Well, I think certainly growing up as I said earlier I grew up right around the corner from here.
 ; 
 ; SC: What’s the address?
 ; 
 ; LH: 414 North Leh St. and as I said, my parents bought the house in 1945, and I still live there. But yeah I had, I think I had a nice childhood growing up. I met my wife at FIT, and we got married. Not long after we got married, she became pregnant. So when I finished with a FIT that's I came back home, and I went into business with my father and grandfather who remained, essentially my grandfather remained active in the business almost up to the day he died. 0 2325 Atlantic Apparel Association GE: So Larry, what we’re going to do now is just explore a little bit more your own family’s history, and maybe if you want to explain first you can say that you know a lot about just the apparel industry. Why don’t we first just talk about what you know about local apparel industries. And so go back as far as you’re comfortable. I know that you and your father, am I correct, were both presidents of the Association or helped develop the Association. 
 ; 
 ; LH: Yes.
 ; 
 ; GE: In fact, why don’t you start by telling us about the Association.
 ; 
 ; LH: Well you mentioned earlier the Atlantic Apparel Association, which originally was called the Slate Belt Association, okay, and that Association was a collective group of people that negotiated with the union, with the ILGWU for their contracts. Whereas the Lehigh Valley Needle Trades Association was born as a self-help organization to help promote the apparel industry and to be able to share ideas. Because for many many years those that were in the garment business [didn’t] really talk to each other about who they were working for or how they were doing things. It was this real secretive like you didn't allow anybody else to come into your factory because you didn't want them to see what you're doing. 0 2810 The Height of the Apparel Industry in the Lehigh Valley/Allentown's Sewing School LH: You know that people don’t realize at one time the apparel industry, and I'm not including knitting, dyeing, finishing, in the Lehigh Valley, we were collectively the largest employer in the Lehigh Valley. We were bigger than Bethlehem Steel as many as 24-25,000 people worked in the apparel industry. In the State of Pennsylvania, I believe overall we were the second largest employer next to Bethlehem Steel and US Steel. It’s incredible. And a lot of people made a living. It's interesting because back then what I always hated was, we were considered a low-wage industry. Well the problem was they were comparing us to Bethlehem Steel and Mack Truck where people were making $15-$20 an hour, and I'm talking back in the ‘60s. Whereas, it's interesting, I'd say as long ago as at least 30 years ago we had what we called a shop average of eight or nine dollars an hour. Thirty years ago, that was considered low-wage. We had factories that had shop average is $10 an hour, $14 an hour, but we were still considered low-wage industries. Through the Association we started the Allentown Sewing School because there was a time when everybody was busy. The labor market, virtually nobody existed and what everybody was doing, everybody was trying to steal help from somebody else which was really not good for any of us. So we started a sewing school. 0 3168 Business Contacts in Women's Apparel LH: As I said earlier, my father in the 50s was working from men's and boy's companies, and as that started to die off, we ended up getting into the women's. So over the years we worked for... basically you mention the name we work for them. okay Liz Claiborne back then we worked for companies like Bobbie Brooks, I don't know if you remember them. We work for companies called College Town. Who’s the big one in Philly that I just heard about his closing?...Jones New York, Sidney Kimmel. Did you ever hear of Sidney Kimmel. The Kimmel Center in Philadelphia ; he was the benefactor of the Kimmel Center. That was his company. Just recently I heard they were (makes a sound). They were one of the giants of the industry. We worked for Ship’n Shore. A lot of these companies we started with them almost in the beginning. Again, it's interesting, a lot of these women’s firms were sweater manufacturers who then decided to go into what we called the cut and sewn knitwear. So a lot of them, we were there at the beginning when they first started, but again in Philadelphia you had huge companies Devon’s Apparel and Clean Casuals. These were all companies we worked for at different times. 0 3443 Icons in the Garment & ; Needle-Trade Industries LH: Yeah, this Allison manufacturing made basically T-shirts that they screen-printed, and their licenses were with like Disney. The one that put them on the map was Daniel Boone, but big. They employ here in Allentown, they employed over 300 people, 350 people here. But there were many real icons in the Lehigh Valley. You had the gentleman that owned Phoenix Clothes, Berkowitz I don't remember his first name. They employed at one time, 1,500 people. I don't necessarily think they all were here because he also had another factory somewhere else in Pennsylvania but big, they made men's suits. Then you had a place like Cross Country Clothes in Northampton employed 900, a thousand people.
 ; 
 ; GE: What family was that?
 ; 
 ; LH: Billera.
 ; 
 ; GE: I think they’re still around, right?
 ; 
 ; LH: They’re no longer in the industry. 0 3696 Silver Line Versus Interstate Trucking Companies LH: Back then there were primarily two trucking companies that served the garment industry in this area. One was Silver Line and the other one was called Interstate Dress Carriers.
 ; 
 ; GE: Do you know what families ran those?
 ; 
 ; LH: Interstate Dress Carriers was a gentleman named Lieberman, I believe. I mean these people were big. I mean, there was a whole interesting history. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Were they from this area?
 ; 
 ; LH: No, New York. These were very different times that some of these people were connected. Do you know what I'm saying when I say connected?
 ; 
 ; GE: We do. Are you saying Mafia? 
 ; 
 ; LH: [Larry shrugs]I’ll tell you a quick story. When I first was working for my father. . . Back then, and I'm not going to make it a long story. Back then you used either Silver Line or Interstate that was it, period. 0 3960 Expansion of the Family Business LH: So what happened is at one point we had one factory, and we now had four families we had the support. So we decide well the only way we could do that was we have to get bigger, we have to grow so what we did is first we bought another factory that was over on the east side of Allentown. We named that factory Knit Wits. We then bought two other factories, which we combined into one, and that was located more in the west end of Allentown called Hirsch Manufacturing. So collectively at one point we employed at least 250 people between the three factories.
 ; 
 ; GE: This is at what time? 
 ; 
 ; LH: I’d say again, late 60s early 70s, and we grew to the point where we were shipping at times between 4 and five thousand dozen a week. 0 4254 1985: Changes in the Garment Industry and the Decline of the Family Business GE: You want to share with us maybe the last 10 years as it started to . . . First of all, how long was your company in business? 
 ; 
 ; LH: Well, my father closed up his factory, closed up Allentown Manufacturing, he had been in business for about 50 years, I think it was. So he closed up about, it's now going on 30 years ago. 
 ; 
 ; GE: So about 1985. 
 ; 
 ; LH: Yeah, he had to close. I mean the business . . . What had happened was that over the years, especially, we were in the women's apparel, most of those companies that we worked for were connected, were union. They belong to the International Ladies' Garment Workers Union. So when we work for them, they would pay a lot of the benefits for us to the union. Well, what happened was that percentage that they were paying kept going up and up and up, and the only way they could escape the union . . . Now some tried to go down south, but they still had to pay the union. So that's really, in my opinion, that's really when stuff started going overseas. 0 4560 Life After the Family Business—Larry Hirsch's "Garment Works" GE: And then you said that you were starting your own factory. 
 ; 
 ; LH: Yes, I started my own factory not connected to the union. It was nice, it was a nice little factory. It was called The Garment Works. And I took over the building that we had had Knitwits in over on the East Side. I took over that building. 
 ; 
 ; GE: What did you make here, and for whom did you make it? 
 ; 
 ; LH: Well, again, I was, I primarily was making children's, more children's knitwear and then went along pretty nicely for maybe 10 years.
 ; 
 ; GE: Wow that was one of the last ones. 
 ; 
 ; LH: Yeah, maybe a little less than 10 years. Had a nice factory. At one time, maybe I employed as many as 40 people. Then again, some of those people that I was working for started disappearing, going out of business, so then what I did . . . Before I closed the factory, I started doing what we called, we did pressing, finishing, and packaging for companies. Because around that time what became very big was garment-dyed garments, garments that were dyed after they were sewn. And a lot of them needed to be pressed and packaged and what have you. So I started doing that. 0 4830 Walmart's Impact on the Garment and Needle-Trade Industries LH: I worked for a company called Wright Knitwear, big company. They were up in Schuylkill Haven, Orwigsburg, Allentown . . . Their main account was Walmart.
 ; 
 ; GE: What was the family name who owned that? 
 ; 
 ; LH: You know what I don't remember.
 ; 
 ; GE: But they were not an Allentown family. 
 ; 
 ; LH: No, so I did a lot of work for them. I did sewing and the packaging for them. Good company, you know, and they're the ones that moved to El . .. You know Walmart beat them to death and being that over 50% of their business was with Walmart . . .And Walmart said, the guy told me one day, he said Walmart said to us, “You know the 50,000 dozen that you made for us last year. . . Yeah . . . we want to pay you less than we did last year.” You know it got to the point of how cheap is cheap. You know. So they moved everything to El Salvador. Just so they could still produce the goods cheap enough for Walmart. You know what, and after that I never set foot in Walmart ever again, ever. And I knew other people that were put out of business also by Walmart, and I said I will never, ever buy anything from them ever again. 0 4998 The Lehigh Valley Needle-Trades Association GE: Yes, The Lehigh Valley Needle Trades, so that began in the 60s, and how long did that last? 
 ; 
 ; LH: At least I think 25 years.
 ; 
 ; GE: Ok until about 90, around that time period? Is that right?
 ; 
 ; LH: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; GE: And during that time, it sounds like you and your father were very active. Were you employed at the Needle Trades, or were you a volunteer? 
 ; 
 ; LH: Yeah the only person that got paid was Jim Chambers.
 ; 
 ; GE: You were just founding members.
 ; 
 ; LH: Yeah, my father was the original president of the Association. 0 5203 Participation in the Jewish Community and Allentown Politics GE: Will you tell us about your father’s and your activity in the Jewish community in the broader Lehigh Valley or Allentown Community. 
 ; 
 ; LH: That’s an interesting point that I have discussed with some people recently in that why weren't more Jewish people active in local politics. Interesting very interesting. I don't know the exact answer of that. I tend to think some of it may have had to do with not wanting to be too visible. You know because when you consider who some of the local industry people were they certainly could become mayor, senators, you name it. But they, for the most part, chose to stay out of politics. 
 ; 
 ; GE: How about organizations--Kiwanis, Rotary, Chamber of Commerce, any of those things? 
 ; 
 ; LH: We were a member of Chamber of Commerce. I at one time, when I was president of the Association, I was also on the Board of Directors of the Chamber of Commerce, and I was also on the board of directors of what was then called Manpower, which was the state agency that provided funding for training. 0 5461 Impact of the Garment & ; Needle-Trade Industries on the Lehigh Valley's Jewish Community GE: Ok, what is your sense of how both the Jewish community as well as the larger community was affected by the disappearance of this industry? 
 ; 
 ; LH: I think honestly, in my personal opinion, I think the Lehigh Valley lost its identity, I really do. I mean what are we identified with today? The largest employer in the Lehigh Valley is Lehigh Valley Hospital. Is that what we’re identified with today, I don't know. You know, one time it was Mack truck, and it was, of course, in Bethlehem, it was Bethlehem Steel. But it was also the apparel industry. The other thing I think was affected . . . There were a lot of men in the apparel industry that made a lot of money. Some of them made a lot of money while they were in business ; some of them made money when they sold their business. 0 5838 Hirsch's Business Properties GE: Before I turn it over to Sue, there was a question I wanted to ask you when you got out around 1995 were you able to sell your businesses?
 ; 
 ; LH: No, I just had to close-up.
 ; 
 ; GE: How about the buildings, do you still own the buildings?
 ; 
 ; LH: Well, after I went out of business, I basically took over because now we had empty buildings.
 ; 
 ; GE: How many?
 ; 
 ; LH: Three, so we had to try and rent them, so that became my new job was trying to, in some cases renovate and to rent.
 ; 
 ; GE: How has that worked out? 
 ; 
 ; LH: It worked out pretty well for a number of years. I think we were fortunate in that at one point we had a tenant, the building was over there on Madison Street, and tenant came to me and said they wanted to buy the building, so we eventually sold the building to the tenant. 0 6036 Recycling in the Garment & ; Needle-Trade Industries GE: And Levine is the sewing store? Is that who you mean?
 ; 
 ; LH: Yes, at one time they had sewing store, but their major business was buying and selling fabric. In other words, a manufacturer would design and produce what they wanted for the season, so the end of the season, they'd have fabric leftover so companies like Levine would buy the fabric. And they occupied several buildings in Allentown filled with, I mean, an unbelievable amount of fabric.
 ; 
 ; GE: Because of what I knew is they had fabric stores. They had a big fabric store downtown. 
 ; 
 ; LH: Yes, yes, one time they had a few of them. Yeah, nice people. I think the one time there were like 4 brothers involved but what they also did, this was interesting, when I first started with my father, when we would do cutting. . . you know you don't use every inch of fabric you have fallout, clippings whatever you call it, and we would put all of that in these big burlap bags, okay, and sell it to Levine's.
 ; 
 ; GE: Also, is that also Sheftel? 
 ; 
 ; LH: Yes, Sheftel also did that. 0 6668 Hirsch's Values and Creative Inspirations SC: Well I have a couple of sorts of theoretical or thought questions. The first one is what do you value most in life? 
 ; 
 ; LH: My children and my grandchildren. See, I didn't hesitate.
 ; 
 ; SC: And what has made you feel the most artistic or creative or sort of satisfied in life?
 ; 
 ; LH: I think that when I was in a business that I was really good at what I did. I think we, at one time, we had an operation that was, at times when I think back, I wonder how did we do it? How did we produce five thousand dozen a week, how did we do that? You know you have to be doing something right. And I think I’ve prided myself on producing a quality garment, a real quality garment. We stood behind . . .if we did something wrong, we made it right. 0 6904 Relationship to Employees GE: How about your relationship with your employees? You didn’t talk about that. 
 ; 
 ; LH: I mean personally, I think, overall, I had very good relationships with the employees. At times my father felt I was too tough, but overall, you know what, I never felt that I was better than they were. I never asked anybody to do something that I wouldn't do myself. And that included cleaning the toilets, truthfully. I can tell you how many times I cleaned toilets. I will say that over the years, once in a while, when I would run into somebody who had worked for us . . . In fact, when my father passed away, on one of those websites where you can do…
 ; 
 ; GE: Oh, like the obituary?
 ; 
 ; SC: That you can leave comments and memories.
 ; 
 ; LH: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody wrote in there that he was the most wonderful boss that she ever had, and working for him was an honor. I’ve come across employees that have said to me that it was the best place they ever worked. 0 MovingImage Larry Hirsch talks about how his father got started in the apparel business with his grandfather. Larry’s grandfather was a skilled tailor who would make the patterns from the drawings or sketches of their clients. They started making young girl’s sunsuits, then making men’s and boy’s polo shirts, later making women’s knitwear. The Hirsch family were founding members of the Lehigh Valley Needle Trades Association. The purpose of the association was to have owners work together to promote the industry and share ideas. Larry’s father closed his factory in 1985. Larry and his brother-in-law started their own apparel factory and ran that for another ten years.
 ; An interview with Larry Hirsch, June 23, 2015 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is June 23, 2015. So would you just talk about yourself, when you were born, where you were born, etc. And then go back in your family history as far back as you know because it's really helpful for us to see the patterns of how people came to be in the textile industry. LARRY HIRSCH: Well, I was born August 3, 1945. I won't go into my whole long history, but I was adopted. I was born in Canada ok so I pretty much starting with the beginning. My grandfather came to this country from Hungary in the early 1900s. He was I believe either 15 or 16 years old ; came here by himself. Couldn't speak English. He was trained as a tailor. So for a number of years, he traveled around the country working in different cities as a tailor. It's funny how, he didn't talk about it very much and unfortunately if I had been smarter than I over the years I would asked him a lot more questions than I ever did, you know, but somehow and I don't know exactly how he ended up in Bethlehem and that's where he met my grandmother, who had also come from Hungary. And then in 19 . . . oh my father was born in 1918 in Philadelphia. And then at one point they moved to Allentown. They apparently lived in many different locations in the Lehigh Valley. So my father pretty much went through the Allentown school district, and I believe he graduated like in 1936. My grandfather at around that time was making uniforms. Now when I say uniforms, they were uniforms that primarily gas station attendants wore that had their insignias on them and his factory if you want to call it that was in his house. So one-bedroom I remember my parents telling the story when they first got married they had to be out of their bedroom by like 7 o'clock in the morning because there were sewing machines in their bedroom and women then would come in and do the sewing in that room and my father then was a salesman for the selling the uniforms. And he also worked nights at Bethlehem Steel just to try to make a living. As far as I can remember he somehow met someone who manufactured as he called it children's sunsuits. You don't hear that word any more whatever sunsuits were and the guy said to him if you open a factory, I will supply you with work. So, of course, my father didn't have any money, and I believe he borrowed some money from someone he knew. In fact, I'll include that, I believe his name. . . They referred to him as Doc Shaffer, his real name was Ben Shaffer, Benjamin Shaffer. [Could not confirm correct spelling of name] He was very big in textile machinery. He bought and sold textile machinery, apparently had made a lot of money during the Second World War, and my father and his son grew up together. His son was my father's best friend, and I believe that's where he borrowed the money from, it was from Doc Shaffer. He opened the factory with my grandfather and my mother, and that's really how he got his start in the garment business. SC: Was your mother connected to the garment business in a specific way? LH: No, my mother grew up in Northampton, and her father owned a furniture store in Northampton, but I think after a certain period of time my father at some point met another gentleman, and they went into business together. And they started manufacturing their own line of children's what they called back then Polo shirts. They were basically T-shirts, but fancier T-shirts, pullover, and they had a sales office in New York City they had sales reps all over the country. At one time, they had their own knitting, they would knit their own fabric, and it was fairly large, it grew into a fairly large business. But I think what kind of doomed them was the Korean War. Where you know back then, you would take a position in . . .cotton that you used for knitting, but when the war came, you know, the price of cotton either went through the roof or whatever so eventually they closed up that business. But during that time as they were growing, my father bought a very large building in Allentown, which he didn't need the whole building for himself, but he was fortunate and again you know - in business luck always plays, in some cases, a big role. And in order for him to get financing for the building he had heard of this little company that was looking for space called Western Electric. So we went to the bank he talked to the people at Western Electric, and they told him if you buy the building we will rent X amount of space from you in the building. So with that in hand he went to the bank, but at that point the bank said to him at first they said no they won't loan him the money. Because he didn't have really much collateral for it and they spoke for certain period of time, and eventually my father thanked him for his time, got up to leave, and the guy said to him, "Wait a minute," he said, "I'm going to give you the loan." My father said, "Well why? you just told me . . ." He said, "Based on talking to you," he said, "I like your attitude, and I think you're going to be a success." They gave him the loan, and he bought this very large building, and Western Electric rented two floors in the building. So when he then, it was interesting, when he was manufacturing his own line of clothing their label, the name of their company was Mylo Manufacturing. That stood for Merle and Larry. Merle is my sister, that's how he came up with Mylo.I think you know a lot of people in the garment industry named their companies after their children or after their mother, or . . . So when they closed that up my father went back into contract manufacturing. And he worked primarily then for companies that made men's, and boy's knit shirts, polo shirts whatever you want to call them. Those firms were primarily, well a couple of them were from Philadelphia, and the largest part of their business was sweaters. At that time, in Philadelphia was . . . first of all, manufacturing in Philadelphia was tremendous, tremendous. Especially sweaters, knitting sweaters in Philadelphia. So a lot of those firms then branched out to making what we called cut and sewn knitwear. I don't know exactly how my father ever came in contact with them. But what I always thought was interesting, he worked primarily for three firms, and they, the owners of the three firms, were all related, and they were competing with each other. So when someone from one of their firms came to the factory they were forbidden to go out on the floor because they didn't want someone stealing the ideas from the other companies he was working for. But my father became very successful during that time. At times, they employed over 300 people with a dayshift/night shift. Again my grandfather was very active and instrumental in the business. Actually, my grandfather made all of the patterns. He did all the designing for each of these companies. They would give him ideas ; drawings sketches. He would then, you know, design the garment, and he would make all the patterns for all the garments they produced. And I think for my father at that time it was a very exciting time for him. SC: So may I ask a couple follow up questions: what names do you know of the family, even going back to Hungary? Do you know any of that information? Of the two families? LH: As far as I know my grandfather had a sister. My grandfather, as far as I know, never went back to Hungary. And had little if any contact with his family after he came to this country. I don't know why. It just never happened. And I don't know what happened to them. SC: Do you know their names, any of the names? LH: Well let's see, I was named after my grandfather's father his name was Leopold Hirsch, and the name Hirsch was the name that he came to this country with it wasn't a shortened version as a lot of people who were Hirsch might have been Hirshberg or Hirschfeld. It was just Hirsch. My grandmother came to this country with her whole family: parents, sisters, brothers, what have you. It's interesting, this is something that I found out not too long ago is that my grandmother's father was also a tailor. So then I start thinking, okay, well he was a tailor in Bethlehem so I think that's how my grandfather ended up meeting my grandmother. So I, you know, growing up I certainly knew a lot of my grandmother's family, but my father was an only child so. . . SC: What were their names, your grandmother's family? LH: Lowy. SC: And what was your grandmother's name? LH: Josephine. SC: Josephine Lowy. LH: Yes. My grandfather's name was Ernest Hirsch. SC: And do you know his wife's maiden name? LH: my grandmother? SC: Yes. LH: Lowy. SC: Ok and then how about going down one your father and your mother. What was your mother's maiden name? LH: Roth, yeah pretty common name. A lot of Roths. My mother was one of seven children. Yeah, it was Roth. GAIL EISENBERG: And what was her first name, your mother? LH: Mildred. SC: And as far as where they lived, where everybody lived and went to school, do you know any of the other people, where they lived and went to school? That you haven't mentioned where they lived. LH: Yeah, my sister, my mother's family, several of them, they all grew up in Northampton. Both of my mother's brothers were in the Korean War. My one uncle was a doctor, and he was the first medical person to be wounded in Korea. Not that that's something you really . . . ,but he was fairly, wounded fairly badly. When he was able to, he came to live with us while he was recovering from his wounds. But at different times several of my mother's sisters or brothers lived with us. So, for instance, my uncle Mel, who went to Muhlenberg, he lived with us when he went to Muhlenberg. SC: What years did he go to Muhlenberg? LH: What year...hmm SC: It was before '57. LH: Okay yeah, I might've been, I think I was less than 10 years old, I think. GE: So, the early 50s. LH: Then, different sisters . . . My mother's oldest sister ended up in New York City. She was very interested in acting. She was in a number of television shows, did a lot of off-Broadway stuff. In fact, my mother's cousin recently showed me a book that has a picture of a class of students at the Lee Strasberg Acting Studio in New York. So in that picture is by my aunt, Marilyn Monroe, and I can't remember some of the other people. But she knew many many many many people and her daughter ended up going into acting. And her daughter was on a daytime soap opera as a child for quite a while. She then made a movie. She was in a movie with Robert Duvall, James Caan, and there's a woman, and I can never remember, and my cousin as a child was in this movie. And the movie was produced and directed by Francis Ford Coppola. Now it wasn't a big movie at the time because this was before Robert Duvall and James Caan had become big stars. So that's kind of my connection. So now I'm the oldest of 24 first cousins just on my mother's side of the family. SC: What was her name, her cousin's name, who was in-- LH: My aunt? SC: Your aunt. LH: Beatrice. Beatrice Zimmet was her married name. That's a whole other story with my aunt and my adoption, what have you. There's a whole history. SC: Would you be comfortable sharing if you know your birth parents' names? LH: I was born in a maternity home in Canada, which became infamous. It was a baby mill. Mothers would go there to have their babies. A lot of the babies, if they were born not very healthy, they were killed. A lot of mothers were told that their babies died, and then the maternity home essentially sold them to someone else. So I believe it was in the late 40s a reporter kind of got wind of what was going on there and wrote a book and did a whole feature on. It was called Butterbox Babies, and they were . . . The reason that Butterbox, butter in those days was delivered in wooden box, and that's what they used to bury the babies in these little wooden boxes. So when my parents are looking to adopt, back then, first of all, if you were Jewish, it was very difficult to adopt a child that was not Jewish. So, of course then there were a very limited number of children available, but my Aunt Bea had seen an ad in the New York newspaper about this maternity home in Canada. She contacted the people there, had some correspondence with them then put my parents in touch with them, and that's how my parents ended up with me. But eventually the home was closed, and because of what went on at that home all of the adoption laws in Canada and the United States were changed because of what happened there. So there was a book written, there was a movie made about Butterbox Babies. I came to the United States, and I became a naturalized citizen, and at the time I was the youngest person in the United States to become naturalized. So yeah, it's a long ; I always, it's interesting because I always knew that I was adopted. My parents told me and my sister was adopted also so I always knew that I was adopted. But it wasn't until a number of years after I was married that my mother presented me with all the information: who my birth mother was and what happened. GE: Were these women, the mothers unwed? Is that how this was-- LH: I would say, probably. Probably most of them were unwed. At the time some of them actually worked at the home, you know, while they were waiting to give birth. So today, where the home was in Canada, has been torn down, but there is a monument there to the babies that died there. SC: Do you know the name of the home and where it was? GE: Yes, it was outside of Halifax, Nova Scotia. LH: And I, boy, why can't I remember that. SC: We can look that up. [NOTE: It's called the Ideal Maternity Home] LH: Yeah, anyway interestingly enough at one point after I had all this information that my mother gave me, one day I had looked through it, and it was really weird because my original passport was in there. and I opened it up there is little picture of me in there. I think I was eight months old when I was adopted and underneath it said, "George Edward Little." And I remember, I turned to my mother and said, "Who's George Edward Little," and she said, "That's you. That was your birth name." So you know what, I waited until after my mother passed away. Cause I know was very hard for her to give me all of this information and eventually I did contact my birth mother, which did not go well. The last time I spoke to her was a few years ago, and she told me never to call her again. What's interesting too is that a lot of the babies were adopted by Jewish families in New Jersey, New York, and Pennsylvania. A lot of them came here. GE: I guess that's because that's what they could do. LH: Yeah, I was always grateful to my Aunt Bea because if it wasn't for her as I told her children, if it wasn't for your mother, I wouldn't be here today, you know. SC: Could you talk a little bit about where you have lived, where you went to school, your education and then after your education any places you worked actually from the very beginning, paperboy if you did that, you know anything. LH: I grew up in Allentown. I went through the whole Allentown school system, and I went to the Fashion Institute of Technology in New York City - which, back then, was a two-year school. And they had their major course was apparel design, but they had a small course in apparel management and engineering, which is what I took. SC: So if you would talk a little bit about your work history. Anything that you did from before you became a business mogul as an adult. Any steps that you took that will be helpful to us. LH: Well primarily, every summer I worked at the factory doing odd jobs, worked in the cutting room, worked in the shipping department but what's interesting my real interest growing up was art. Then in high school I took art classes, there was an art teacher then his name was Jim Musselman, I don't know if you have ever heard of him? GE: Musselman Advertising? LH: Yes, very well known, not only teacher, but and as an artist himself in the Lehigh Valley, and initially that's really what I wanted to do I wanted to go into commercial art, something like that. But I think when I explored it more I realized that it wouldn't be easy to make a living. Plus, you really had to be exceptionally talented in commercial art, so then I decided well then I'm going to go into business with my father and grandfather, who both of them that's really what they wanted me to do. And that's how I ended up going FIT. SC: And can you talk about your family life from the time that you became an adult and your family? LH: Well, I think certainly growing up as I said earlier I grew up right around the corner from here. SC: What's the address? LH: 414 North Leh St. and as I said, my parents bought the house in 1945, and I still live there. But yeah I had, I think I had a nice childhood growing up. I met my wife at FIT, and we got married. Not long after we got married, she became pregnant. So when I finished with a FIT that's I came back home, and I went into business with my father and grandfather who remained, essentially my grandfather remained active in the business almost up to the day he died. With the exception of because for health reasons he would go ; in later years he would go to Florida during the winter, but when he was here every day he'd come into the factory. SC: How old was he when he passed away? LH: Just shy of 85 years old. SC: Do you have children? LH: Yes, two daughters, Lisa and Lori. I now have five granddaughters, so my whole life has involved women. SC: And so could you talk a little bit about what your daughters do? LH: My younger daughter, who lives in Bethlehem is a nurse at Easton Hospital and has been there for a number of years. My older daughter, who lives in the Plymouth Meeting is now a stay-at-home mom, but she originally worked as an accountant for different firms in Philadelphia and then ended up at Comcast. She was assistant vice president of one of the divisions of Comcast. So then I think it was around the time when they had their first child that she stopped working. SC: Well, I will pass you along to Gail now. GE: Ok. LH: I'll show you this, who do you think that is? GE: Thornburgh in the center and this is you. LH: Yes, that's me. GE: Is that your father? LH: No, his name was Larry Lau. SC: Thornburgh, I haven't thought about him in ages. GE: So Larry, what we're going to do now is just explore a little bit more your own family's history, and maybe if you want to explain first you can say that you know a lot about just the apparel industry. Why don't we first just talk about what you know about local apparel industries. And so go back as far as you're comfortable. I know that you and your father, am I correct, were both presidents of the Association or helped develop the Association. LH: Yes. GE: In fact, why don't you start by telling us about the Association. LH: Well you mentioned earlier the Atlantic Apparel Association, which originally was called the Slate Belt Association, okay, and that Association was a collective group of people that negotiated with the union, with the ILGWU for their contracts. Whereas the Lehigh Valley Needle Trades Association was born as a self-help organization to help promote the apparel industry and to be able to share ideas. Because for many many years those that were in the garment business [didn't] really talk to each other about who they were working for or how they were doing things. It was this real secretive like you didn't allow anybody else to come into your factory because you didn't want them to see what you're doing. So at one point my father said well this is crazy. We're all in this together. We should be able to help each other and promote the industry. That it had become an industry that was really no longer a sweatshop industry. That many, many of the factories had been modernized, air-conditioned. . . GE: Do you know about what time that was? LH: Starting mostly in the late 50s [early] 60s. People started to really modernize and upgrade. So anyway my father and a few of his friends got together, and they said let's put together an association. I do have the names, I'm trying to remember, but I'll get you the names of the couple people. GE: Like who were the other people that were involved with its start. And just so I understand, you say it was something with instead of competing against each other maybe we can all just grow the industry together with the best practices. LH: Correct, that's correct. So one of my father's, our neighbors, was a gentleman named Jim Chambers. Jim Chambers ran an advertising agency, so my father knew him and sat down with him, and he said we're going to make you Executive Director of the new Lehigh Valley Needle Trades Association. . . and it was born. I think at one time we had different number of members at different times. I know, at times we had as many as 30 local apparel firms that were members. GE: And these were the contractors as well as what other types? LH: As well as men we had manufacturers, we had dyeing and finishing firms, knitting firms ; you know anybody who felt that they really could benefit by belonging to an association like what we had. And it really opened doors. It got to the point where, you know what, if you needed a certain type of machinery that you didn't have and instead of going out and buying it you could call somebody up and say, "Hey do you happen to have one of these that you're not using that I could borrow for a while." It's interesting, in this picture ; this is my father, this is a gentleman named Gerson Lazar, he had a factory called Cata Garment. He was one of the original founders. And this is Jim Chambers. This was gentleman named Jerry Katz, his father had a company was called K and M Manufacturing, and I believe this gentleman was from FIT, I think. Anyway, so Mr. Lazar was a tough cookie, but what I loved about him, he loved buying new equipment. The latest thing in the market he'd run out and buy it. And if I wanted to see it, he would welcome me into his plant, and I would see what he's doing. Many times . . . he didn't put a lot of research into buying equipment before he jumped in. So often the equipment he bought didn't work out. But I give him a lot of credit for doing that, and he probably had one of the most modern factories in Allentown, and in the Lehigh Valley at the time, he really did. GE: What did his factory make? LH: Pants, ladies' pants. It was a nice, very nice factory. You know that people don't realize at one time the apparel industry, and I'm not including knitting, dyeing, finishing, in the Lehigh Valley, we were collectively the largest employer in the Lehigh Valley. We were bigger than Bethlehem Steel as many as 24-25,000 people worked in the apparel industry. In the State of Pennsylvania, I believe overall we were the second largest employer next to Bethlehem Steel and US Steel. It's incredible. And a lot of people made a living. It's interesting because back then what I always hated was, we were considered a low-wage industry. Well the problem was they were comparing us to Bethlehem Steel and Mack Truck where people were making $15-$20 an hour, and I'm talking back in the '60s. Whereas, it's interesting, I'd say as long ago as at least 30 years ago we had what we called a shop average of eight or nine dollars an hour. Thirty years ago, that was considered low-wage. We had factories that had shop average is $10 an hour, $14 an hour, but we were still considered low-wage industries. Through the Association we started the Allentown Sewing School because there was a time when everybody was busy. The labor market, virtually nobody existed and what everybody was doing, everybody was trying to steal help from somebody else which was really not good for any of us. So we started a sewing school. GE: This was about what time period? LH: I'm thinking in the late 60s early 70s, I think. I think initially we got funding from the state. GE: And was this something that a woman did or person did after they graduated high school? LH: Yes, yes. GE: How long was the training? LH: It depended-- six weeks, eight weeks maybe a little longer depending. GE: This was obviously to increase your supply of skilled labor. LH: And virtually anybody who graduated from that school had a job. Period. And then that went on for a number of years, and it was quite successful. GE: When you say a number of years, can you give a sense of 5 years, 10 years? LH: Twenty years, maybe. Also, through the Association, we started a class at the Vo-tech School at the Lehigh County Vo-tech School and at the Bethlehem Vo-tech School. Which, again, both very successful courses. In fact, the one in Bethlehem, we had a woman there who was just incredible. And a lot of her students went on to FIT and the Philadelphia Textile. And I was involved in all of that, and it was an exciting time in the '60s, '70s. By then we started... As I said earlier, my father in the 50s was working from men's and boy's companies, and as that started to die off, we ended up getting into the women's. So over the years we worked for... basically you mention the name we work for them. okay Liz Claiborne back then we worked for companies like Bobbie Brooks, I don't know if you remember them. We work for companies called College Town. Who's the big one in Philly that I just heard about his closing?...Jones New York, Sidney Kimmel. Did you ever hear of Sidney Kimmel. The Kimmel Center in Philadelphia ; he was the benefactor of the Kimmel Center. That was his company. Just recently I heard they were (makes a sound). They were one of the giants of the industry. We worked for Ship'n Shore. A lot of these companies we started with them almost in the beginning. Again, it's interesting, a lot of these women's firms were sweater manufacturers who then decided to go into what we called the cut and sewn knitwear. So a lot of them, we were there at the beginning when they first started, but again in Philadelphia you had huge companies Devon's Apparel and Clean Casuals. These were all companies we worked for at different times. GE: So for Devon and Clean, were you doing the cutting and sewing? LH: Yes. GE: Ok, they were the brains? LH: Yeah SC: Was this a factor when you went from manufacturing to coming into contracting? LH: Yeah, well I should back up and tell you one thing. At one point, I don't remember when this was, late 40s maybe in the early 50s. My father decided he wanted to get out of the business. So we sold this factory to a gentleman who had come here from New York, and that company became Allison Manufacturing. His name was Wharton Schneider. So my father, at that point, went to work in my grandfather's furniture store in Northampton. After maybe six months, nine months he decided that's not for him, but he had made a codicil with Mr. Schneider that he would not go back into business for certain period of time, so he went to Mr. Schneider, and he said that he'd like to go back into business. And Mr. Schneider allowed him to do that. As a result, he and Mr. Schneider - I'd say, Mr. Schneider became my father's best friend for the rest of his life. GE: When you say Mr. Schneider is that related to Irwin Schneider? LH: No, they're not related. GE: That's a different family. LH: Yeah, this Allison manufacturing made basically T-shirts that they screen-printed, and their licenses were with like Disney. The one that put them on the map was Daniel Boone, but big. They employ here in Allentown, they employed over 300 people, 350 people here. But there were many real icons in the Lehigh Valley. You had the gentleman that owned Phoenix Clothes, Berkowitz I don't remember his first name. They employed at one time, 1,500 people. I don't necessarily think they all were here because he also had another factory somewhere else in Pennsylvania but big, they made men's suits. Then you had a place like Cross Country Clothes in Northampton employed 900, a thousand people. GE: What family was that? LH: Billera. GE: I think they're still around, right? LH: They're no longer in the industry. There were originally five brothers, five Billera Brothers. They were huge. These were big companies. There was a company called Penn State Mills here in Allentown. GE: What was the family name? LH: Lesavoy family. Big company. They were manufacturers. I'm trying to think of sho some of the other really big, really big ones. There was one in Fountain Hill called Fountain Hill Mills. Their name was Meislin. GE: Was that Ruth Meislin's husband? LH: Could be, could be. There were two. There was father originally, a father and two sons. It was Nate Meislin and can't remember his brother's name. GE: I don't know I just remember her husband died young. LH: But these were big companies, and then you had the knitting companies: Fair Tex Mill that was Berman family. GE: Ok, that was Shirley Berman's husband. LH: I think so. Again, there were two brothers. Then you had the dyeing and finishing. There was a plant here called the Seco Mills. GE: What family was that? LH: Right now, I can't remember his name. There were other large ones that I can't remember. Back then there were primarily two trucking companies that served the garment industry in this area. One was Silver Line and the other one was called Interstate Dress Carriers. GE: Do you know what families ran those? LH: Interstate Dress Carriers was a gentleman named Lieberman, I believe. I mean these people were big. I mean, there was a whole interesting history. GE: Were they from this area? LH: No, New York. These were very different times that some of these people were connected. Do you know what I'm saying when I say connected? GE: We do. Are you saying Mafia? LH: [Larry shrugs]I'll tell you a quick story. When I first was working for my father. . . Back then, and I'm not going to make it a long story. Back then you used either Silver Line or Interstate that was it, period. So one day, I was working in the shipping room, and I had called for Silver Line to come at a certain time to pick up. They didn't show up, so I called Interstate. They came, picked up. I don't know if it was the next day or the day after, my father calls me into the office one day and there two gentlemen sitting there, and he said we heard that you use Interstate instead of Silver Line. One guy's name was Whitey that's all I remember. Whitey had a gun, okay, I don't remember [who] other guy was. You know, my father said to me, "We use Silver Line, we don't use Interstate." and I said, "Okay, okay." I got the message. Yeah, I remember Whitey. GE: Thank you, that was great, it filled in a lot of chunks of the overall industry. What about, let's go back and just share with us the history of your father, your family business. I know you told us a little bit it's called A Town Manufacturing, but that looks like it ended early. And so just tell us a little bit, what factories and-- LH: Well, we had you know at one point my sister got involved with her boyfriend, let's say, and she wanted to marry him. My father felt, well, okay, and he thought, okay, we'll bring him into the business. But first, what he did, his name was David Lily, and he sent David to FIT for a one-year program. David then came back downtown and came into the business with us. So what happened is at one point we had one factory, and we now had four families we had the support. So we decide well the only way we could do that was we have to get bigger, we have to grow so what we did is first we bought another factory that was over on the east side of Allentown. We named that factory Knit Wits. We then bought two other factories, which we combined into one, and that was located more in the west end of Allentown called Hirsch Manufacturing. So collectively at one point we employed at least 250 people between the three factories. GE: This is at what time? LH: I'd say again, late 60s early 70s, and we grew to the point where we were shipping at times between 4 and five thousand dozen a week. GE: And this is women's? LH: Women's, well we then got into . . . . we made pants, shorts, tops. You name it, we were making. GE: This is all cut and sew. LH: Yes, we then, at one point, got into embroidery, doing embroidery through one of our manufacturers we worked for. So that something else that we could offer a customer to do you know besides cutting, sewing, and finishing. GE: Was the embroidering, did it ever become a large part of the business, or was it very specialized. LH: Actually, it was part of the business. Eventually it was separated from the business. It became its own entity. GE: I assume, is that a little bit more of a higher margin. In other words, I assume the other had a lot of competition, had a lower margin, while something like this is more specialized, so there's a higher margin. LH: Yes, yes, yes. SC: Was it for women's clothing, was it embroidery font? LH: Well, initially was started just doing little logos. I don't know if you remember a company called Hang Ten. Hang Ten had like to two feet embroidered on the shirts. That's how we started doing embroidery was for Hang Ten. [some back and forth discussion that is inaudible] At that time it was mostly logos. So as I said we got to the point where we were one of the largest. GE: And that was under Hirsch. LH: Mainly, people knew as his Allentown Manufacturing. We were one of the largest apparel producers in the Lehigh Valley for the type of stuff we produced. Ship'n Shore was one of our big customers. GE: You want to share with us maybe the last 10 years as it started to . . . First of all, how long was your company in business? LH: Well, my father closed up his factory, closed up Allentown Manufacturing, he had been in business for about 50 years, I think it was. So he closed up about, it's now going on 30 years ago. GE: So about 1985. LH: Yeah, he had to close. I mean the business . . . What had happened was that over the years, especially, we were in the women's apparel, most of those companies that we worked for were connected, were union. They belong to the International Ladies' Garment Workers Union. So when we work for them, they would pay a lot of the benefits for us to the union. Well, what happened was that percentage that they were paying kept going up and up and up, and the only way they could escape the union . . . Now some tried to go down south, but they still had to pay the union. So that's really, in my opinion, that's really when stuff started going overseas. That they felt the only way they could escape the union is to go overseas. So that started taking the work away from us. So as those union manufacturers started to disappear, we then had to work for companies that were not associated with the union. Therefore, we had to pay these percentages to the union, okay, which at times got to be as much as 20% of our payroll went to the union. I mean, 20%. When you think of 20% on top of Worker's Comp., unemployment compensation, we were paying over 30%. On top of every dollar that somebody earned, we were paying. And then even those companies started going overseas. So eventually the handwriting was on the wall that we just couldn't do it anymore. So my brother-in-law and I at that point decided we kind of set a certain date that we were going to close up, that that was going to be it. Well at the last minute my father changed his mind and decided as he put it he owed it to the people to try and stay in business. And I said to him, "Dad," I said, "I've already started my own factory." I said, "I can't stay here anymore." And he said, "Okay, that's okay." But he had some issues with the union, so we went into New York one day to try and work things out, and the union said, "No. This is what we want, take it or leave it." And he said [makes a sound] that's it. He came home, and the next day he closed the factory. GE: This was about 1985? LH: Yeah GE: And then you said that you were starting your own factory. LH: Yes, I started my own factory not connected to the union. It was nice, it was a nice little factory. It was called The Garment Works. And I took over the building that we had had Knitwits in over on the East Side. I took over that building. GE: What did you make here, and for whom did you make it? LH: Well, again, I was, I primarily was making children's, more children's knitwear and then went along pretty nicely for maybe 10 years. GE: Wow that was one of the last ones. LH: Yeah, maybe a little less than 10 years. Had a nice factory. At one time, maybe I employed as many as 40 people. Then again, some of those people that I was working for started disappearing, going out of business, so then what I did . . . Before I closed the factory, I started doing what we called, we did pressing, finishing, and packaging for companies. Because around that time what became very big was garment-dyed garments, garments that were dyed after they were sewn. And a lot of them needed to be pressed and packaged and what have you. So I started doing that. GE: You kind of got into this particular specialty. LH: Yes, and I had the equipment to do it. SC: Was this a place on the East Side that had really a lot of people who lived there that wanted to work at your factory? I mean, it would seem to me and maybe-- LH: On the East Side? SC: Of Allentown. LH: Yeah, I had a lot of employees that came from the east side as well as other places, but that's not where I did that the packaging and finishing. That I did in the building we had in the West Side, in the West End where again we had had a factory in there, and I took over part of that building, and that's where I did all my-- because to do what I was doing you needed a lot of room. And then you know that was pretty good for a few years. Then one of the big companies I worked for moved to El Salvador. Another big company I worked for they went out of business completely. And then at that point I kinda saw the handwriting on the wall and I said, "Well, this is it." GE: And this was around 93, 94, that type of time period. LH: Yeah, probably, year, maybe . . . No maybe it was later, even later than that. Because that was pretty good. I worked for a company called Wright Knitwear, big company. They were up in Schuylkill Haven, Orwigsburg, Allentown . . . Their main account was Walmart. GE: What was the family name who owned that? LH: You know what I don't remember. GE: But they were not an Allentown family. LH: No, so I did a lot of work for them. I did sewing and the packaging for them. Good company, you know, and they're the ones that moved to El . .. You know Walmart beat them to death and being that over 50% of their business was with Walmart . . .And Walmart said, the guy told me one day, he said Walmart said to us, "You know the 50,000 dozen that you made for us last year. . . Yeah . . . we want to pay you less than we did last year." You know it got to the point of how cheap is cheap. You know. So they moved everything to El Salvador. Just so they could still produce the goods cheap enough for Walmart. You know what, and after that I never set foot in Walmart ever again, ever. And I knew other people that were put out of business also by Walmart, and I said I will never, ever buy anything from them ever again. GE: I rarely do, but I won't say never. LH: You know it's just terrible what they did single-handedly did really to the apparel industry. It was incredible, and people don't really understand that either. GE: Let's see in terms of, I'm sorry, the Lehigh Valley Alliance? LH: The Lehigh Valley Needle Trades? GE: Yes, The Lehigh Valley Needle Trades, so that began in the 60s, and how long did that last? LH: At least I think 25 years. GE: Ok until about 90, around that time period? Is that right? LH: Yeah. GE: And during that time, it sounds like you and your father were very active. Were you employed at the Needle Trades, or were you a volunteer? LH: Yeah the only person that got paid was Jim Chambers. GE: You were just founding members. LH: Yeah, my father was the original president of the Association. GE: Were you a president? LH: Yes. GE: So you were very, very active in it, but you were not actually employed. LH: Yes, I mean, we did, we really some amazing things. One year . . . well here's what we did, this how this came about. The very first year my father and Jim Chambers approached the then governor Scranton. I believe it was through our local state senator you know what I can picture him, but I can't remember his name. He was very helpful to us. The governor declared a certain week as state apparel week, usually in around April. So what we would do every year we go to Harrisburg for the governor to sign the proclamation making it Pennsylvania Apparel Week. We then would have a banquet, every year we would have a banquet. First-year, governor Scranton and his wife came to the banquet. It was really something. One of our member firms made dresses, they made a dress for the first lady, which was modeled at the banquet. I remember it was at the old Americus Hotel and there was this long winding staircase that came down into the banquet room and the model came down this staircase modeling the dress for the first lady. So you know somewhere I have another picture of me with our governor Milton Shapp. Remember, he was our governor. GE: Yes, yes, he was in the late 70s. So your family, you and your father were very, very active in the trade association. LH: Yes. GE: Will you tell us about your father's and your activity in the Jewish community in the broader Lehigh Valley or Allentown Community. LH: That's an interesting point that I have discussed with some people recently in that why weren't more Jewish people active in local politics. Interesting very interesting. I don't know the exact answer of that. I tend to think some of it may have had to do with not wanting to be too visible. You know because when you consider who some of the local industry people were they certainly could become mayor, senators, you name it. But they, for the most part, chose to stay out of politics. GE: How about organizations--Kiwanis, Rotary, Chamber of Commerce, any of those things? LH: We were a member of Chamber of Commerce. I at one time, when I was president of the Association, I was also on the Board of Directors of the Chamber of Commerce, and I was also on the board of directors of what was then called Manpower, which was the state agency that provided funding for training. So one time, the funding for our sewing school was through them, through Manpower. It was interesting how we did that. We couldn't get direct funding, but what they did is they decided we would get funding for the teacher because she was learning to be a teacher, and that's how we got the funding. We always managed, sometimes we would get a grant from the city or the state. But yes, going back to what you said, my father was almost lifelong member of Kiwanis. He was an um-- GE: Rotary? LH: No, not Kiwanis. I can't remember what it's called, but he had a ring. GE: Shriners, Masons? LH: Yes, Mason, he was a Mason. Very active in the synagogue. GE: Which synagogue? LH: Temple Beth El. GE: How about your mom? LH: My mother was active at Temple Beth El one time she was president of the sisterhood. GE: And I'm sorry, tell us what your mother's name is again. LH: Mildred was always very active in B'nai B'rith. GE: How about Hadassah? LH: Hadassah, yeah. GE: Ok, what is your sense of how both the Jewish community as well as the larger community was affected by the disappearance of this industry? LH: I think honestly, in my personal opinion, I think the Lehigh Valley lost its identity, I really do. I mean what are we identified with today? The largest employer in the Lehigh Valley is Lehigh Valley Hospital. Is that what we're identified with today, I don't know. You know, one time it was Mack truck, and it was, of course, in Bethlehem, it was Bethlehem Steel. But it was also the apparel industry. The other thing I think was affected . . . There were a lot of men in the apparel industry that made a lot of money. Some of them made a lot of money while they were in business ; some of them made money when they sold their business. For instance, I mentioned up Wharton Schneider, Allison Manufacturing, he sold his company to Beatrice foods years ago. A lot of the companies that we worked for were bought by larger companies. London Fog . . . So I think Fair-Tex Mills was bought out at one time so a lot of these people were very large contributors to, for instance, the Jewish Community Center, the Jewish Day School, UJA. I mean, I'm talking, I can remember, what was it, the Six-Day War, when they had an emergency meeting at the at the Jewish Community Center to raise money, and people got up and pledged $25,000, $10,000 and you know and that's back in, what, 1967. Five thousand--I mean, I was like . . . that was $25,000, and that was a lot. I mean, it's a lot of money today, back then . . . huge, huge! So I don't really know what happened, you know, I think there was a period of time when some of those organizations did start to struggle because they weren't getting the type of contributions that they once were. Whereas today the contributors are doctors and lawyers, no longer businessmen or industrialists. It's the doctors who are making the money today. So that's a big change, big change. GE: And then just any thoughts that you might have in terms of why the Jewish community was certainly over-represented in this industry? LH: In the garment industry? GE: In the garment industry. LH: Oh, I think most of that came from Europe. As I said, my grandfather was trained in Europe. You know in Europe for many, many, many years you basically only went to school up to a certain grade and then in certain cases you took a test. If they didn't feel your aptitude was to go on to higher education you went into learning a trade, which essentially . . . my grandfather always considered himself like the black sheep of the family. So even the names, even the names: Schneider. A Schneider okay is a tailor, so I think that's where a lot of that came from, you know. They came to this country through Ellis Island, a lot of them ended up in New York, New York City and one of the few places they could work or make a living, if you call it that, were in the sweatshops. At one time New York City, I believe, was . . . the largest producer of apparel in the world was New York City. GE: Before I turn it over to Sue, there was a question I wanted to ask you when you got out around 1995 were you able to sell your businesses? LH: No, I just had to close-up. GE: How about the buildings, do you still own the buildings? LH: Well, after I went out of business, I basically took over because now we had empty buildings. GE: How many? LH: Three, so we had to try and rent them, so that became my new job was trying to, in some cases renovate and to rent. GE: How has that worked out? LH: It worked out pretty well for a number of years. I think we were fortunate in that at one point we had a tenant, the building was over there on Madison Street, and tenant came to me and said they wanted to buy the building, so we eventually sold the building to the tenant. Then the building that we had downtown, the same thing we got to the point where I first had one offer to buy the building. That fell through. And then I had another offer to buy the building and my father and I finally said, "Okay it's time, it's time to let it go." GE: So, at this point you don't own any of them. LH: No. SC: And do you know the addresses of the buildings, even if it's just the street? LH: Our main factory was at 315 Linden St. and is now being converted to apartments. GE: It took a long time. LH: When we bought that building and moved in there, there were 500 people working in that building in the apparel business. Just in that building alone. Yeah, that was 315 the other one was 327 North Madison St. And then the other one on the east side was 11 South Dauphin St. You know - just to throw out - you had the companies for instance like to Perlman and Levine who... GE: And Levine is the sewing store? Is that who you mean? LH: Yes, at one time they had sewing store, but their major business was buying and selling fabric. In other words, a manufacturer would design and produce what they wanted for the season, so the end of the season, they'd have fabric leftover so companies like Levine would buy the fabric. And they occupied several buildings in Allentown filled with, I mean, an unbelievable amount of fabric. GE: Because of what I knew is they had fabric stores. They had a big fabric store downtown. LH: Yes, yes, one time they had a few of them. Yeah, nice people. I think the one time there were like 4 brothers involved but what they also did, this was interesting, when I first started with my father, when we would do cutting. . . you know you don't use every inch of fabric you have fallout, clippings whatever you call it, and we would put all of that in these big burlap bags, okay, and sell it to Levine's. GE: Also, is that also Sheftel? LH: Yes, Sheftel also did that. And at one time, I remember my father told me he would get enough money from the clippings to pay for the rent. But it was interesting as the years went by, and we started producing more and more man-made fibers: orlon, nylon, polyester. Initially a lot of that was recycled and remade into polyester thread, but as time went on, it became cheaper to produce it new than to recycle it. So then the value of the clippings went down to nothing. Your money, dollar bills, are made of paper that is made from hundred percent white cotton that comes from clippings. GE: Will shared with us that apparently, that was very much the basis of his success to be the supplier of this paper. LH: But also at one time, years ago, we had what they called linoleum, the backing linoleum was made from recycled clippings. Okay, the head liners in a car were made from recycled material. GE: I wonder if they still are just getting it from a different source. I don't know. LH: So, the apparel industry was very big in recycling. GE: Yes, early. LH: Really. Even early on, even a lot of the machines that we use had a knife on them, so as you sewed, it not only sewed the edge, but it trimmed it. So you'd have these trimmings that would fall on the floor we would sweep those up and put that in burlap bags and Levine's would take it. GE: So Levine's was also just as Sheftel was with the scraps. That's interesting because I do know Ira Levine, that's one of Levine's sons. We'll have to add his name to our list. LH: There was also Perlman, M S Perlman, and Sons [correct name is MS Perlman & ; Co.]. GE: Were they a part of the same, were they in business together or they in two separate ones. LH: You mean, Levine's? It was two separate companies. And that was big business. That was really very big business. GE: And how terrific was it that nothing was wasted. LH: Yeah, we didn't waste anything, we really didn't. SC: Are the Perlmans still around? LH: I know the son, his name is Alan, Alan Perlman. I think he still . . . I don't know. I've heard different things, whether it's true or not, I don't know. I heard that he was maybe doing something in conjunction with the Sheftels. I don't know that for a fact. I don't think Ira is doing much anymore. GE: I don't think so either. But he would be able to share with us a little bit with us about the family because he was in the business at one time. LH: Yeah, in fact, the building, after they tore down my father's building, he moved into a building on Gordon Street downtown, and the building was owned by Levine's. So . . . here's a picture. We used to put out a monthly newsletter. SC: Oh, wow, beautiful. LH: Needlepoint . . . the whole thing. Here's Esther Halperin, Irwin Schneider. GE: Ok, great, and we interviewed both of them. LH: There's my father. You can read the articles in here. SC: May we copy it? LH: Sure. Here's. . . One month, Jim decided he wanted to do a feature article on my family so here's a picture [Larry shows the picture]. This is my grandfather, myself, my brother-in-law and my father. Here's another picture of us in the factory. My grandfather wore, I never saw my grandfather wear anything other than a white shirt, okay, and a suit. I mean he would take the suit coat off, but he always wore a white shirt and a suit. And I'll never forget he always told me, he said, "You never wear shorts in the factory." GE: I wonder if that was for safety. LH: No, he didn't feel he said if you're a manager or whatever, then you dress appropriately. Then this one here's a picture of me. This was the year I became president of the Needle Trades. And that's a picture of me. SC: It's such a good late 70s, 1980s picture with the beard. LH: Yeah, I had that beard for 20 years. GE: You know I wouldn't recognize Esther, and it's just a little picture, but I'm saying I really wouldn't have recognized her. LH: Now, Esther, did you interview Esther? SC: Yes, we did. GE: And that was a wonderful interview. And you know I recognize your father. I just didn't know. But I recognize your father from the synagogue. LH: He was still going to synagogue. Over three years ago, I brought him back up here from Florida, and he was living at Country Meadows, but we had a woman that would take him to synagogue every Saturday morning. GE: Oh, that's nice. SC: Well I have a couple of sorts of theoretical or thought questions. The first one is what do you value most in life? LH: My children and my grandchildren. See, I didn't hesitate. SC: And what has made you feel the most artistic or creative or sort of satisfied in life? LH: I think that when I was in a business that I was really good at what I did. I think we, at one time, we had an operation that was, at times when I think back, I wonder how did we do it? How did we produce five thousand dozen a week, how did we do that? You know you have to be doing something right. And I think I've prided myself on producing a quality garment, a real quality garment. We stood behind . . .if we did something wrong, we made it right. I'll tell you a quick story. One year we started work for a new company. I was making ladies tops with a zipper down the back. One day my grandfather comes to me with a garment, and he throws this garment down on the table, and he says, "Tell me what's wrong with that garment." I went over that garment with a fine-tooth comb, and I said, "I don't see anything wrong with this garment." He said, "The zipper's supposed to be in the back." The zipper was in the front. And I went oh my God, oh my God. Now, fortunately, it wasn't every piece okay, but needless to say we didn't do any work for that company after that. It ended up we had to buy the shirts that had the zipper in the front. SC: But now it's style, and they would expose the zipper in the back. GE: It's amazing the difference. LH: My grandfather, he was wonderful. He would go . . . During the winter, in Florida, he was bored. So he would go . . . He didn't have a car and didn't drive in Florida. He would go to department stores in Miami, Miami Beach, and he would walk around and look at garments to see how they were made, trying to get ideas. Sometimes he would buy one and send it up here, and there were many times that he saw something with the way something was done that we then adopted in the factory that saved us money. GE: He either saw things that were time-saving or labor-saving. LH: Yes, yes. GE: You know one thing we did just briefly we want to touch upon. How about your relationship with your employees? You didn't talk about that. LH: I mean personally, I think, overall, I had very good relationships with the employees. At times my father felt I was too tough, but overall, you know what, I never felt that I was better than they were. I never asked anybody to do something that I wouldn't do myself. And that included cleaning the toilets, truthfully. I can tell you how many times I cleaned toilets. I will say that over the years, once in a while, when I would run into somebody who had worked for us . . . In fact, when my father passed away, on one of those websites where you can do-- GE: Oh, like the obituary? SC: That you can leave comments and memories. LH: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody wrote in there that he was the most wonderful boss that she ever had, and working for him was an honor. I've come across employees that have said to me that it was the best place they ever worked. GE: And in your business who among you was the one that really dealt with the manufacturing, who was getting that business? LH: Well, initially my father did. My father was not the kind of guy, he was not on the floor, you know, doing the daily tasks. My father loved to schmooze, okay. He'd love to entertain the customers. Take them out to lunch to Hess's Patio, take them out to play golf, take them to lunch. So a lot of that, as time went on, fell to me. Where I would work mostly directly with the accounts. And then I would go into New York regularly. I can't tell you how much time I spent beating the streets of New York, knocking on doors. But what's interesting is as much as I did that the best accounts that we ever got were referrals. Somebody who knew us from someone. One company may have moved to another company and remembered us and then came to us. Or we were recommended by somebody so that I think is really saying a lot for what we did. GE: I'm looking at this, and I see James Hartzell. LH: Yeah. GE: We interviewed him as well. LH: Ok, sure. GE: And I see that you and he together look like when you were president, and he was vice president. SC: And they're still in business. Making pet clothing. LH: What does he do? GE: He does a little bit of custom-made outfits for pets. LH: Oh, really? GE: Yes. SC: Yes, these tiny little things. LH: He was a nice guy. I liked him a lot. And he is one that I saw at the last function that you had. GE: That's right ; he was there. Yes, yes. LH: I hadn't seen him for years! Now Irwin Schneider, when we bought . . . Okay the building we had down on Linden Street we bought from this gentleman Gerson Lazar, he owned the building. We bought it from him, and one of his tenants was Irwin Schneider. GE: May I see that picture? I've heard the name Gerson Lazar, but I think he's gone a long time. LH: Yeah. GE: So I think that's it. And then maybe we can make copies of the pictures, but I am going to have to write on the back of our copies who they are because we won't know. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
02:00:57
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Larry Hirsch, June 23, 2015
Description
An account of the resource
Larry Hirsch talks about how his father got started in the apparel business with his grandfather. Larry’s grandfather was a skilled tailor who would make the patterns from the drawings or sketches of their clients. They started making young girl’s sunsuits, then making men’s and boy’s polo shirts, later making women’s knitwear. The Hirsch family were founding members of the Lehigh Valley Needle Trades Association. The purpose of the association was to have owners work together to promote the industry and share ideas. Larry’s father closed his factory in 1985. Larry and his brother-in-law started their own apparel factory and ran that for another ten years.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LVTNT-12
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-05-23
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.
-
https://textile.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/bc3d37d093578e38f394e9aba42ec6b8.png
0ffda37cddf1bae90cc99091513630a8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Leonard Abrams
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-35.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 August 21, 2012 Leonard Abrams, August 21, 2012 LVTNT-35 01:25:37 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Leonard Abrams Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 AbramsLeonard_20210821.mp4 1.0:|19(13)|32(4)|55(2)|72(11)|95(2)|114(12)|131(14)|146(17)|163(11)|184(8)|203(7)|228(5)|251(15)|266(9)|279(4)|296(16)|309(4)|324(13)|341(7)|360(10)|377(5)|394(12)|421(2)|440(5)|459(10)|482(4)|493(12)|508(7)|521(3)|540(6)|565(3)|580(6)|599(11)|616(3)|633(4)|648(6)|663(15)|680(5)|691(15)|712(3)|725(4)|744(11)|765(3)|780(6)|799(15)|816(2)|831(7)|850(14)|869(12)|892(7)|905(10)|926(7)|951(3)|970(4)|989(6)|1010(15)|1033(7)|1052(13)|1083(3)|1100(11)|1121(6)|1136(15)|1157(5)|1172(16)|1185(15)|1206(2)|1225(12)|1242(7)|1259(12)|1276(11)|1295(13)|1318(4)|1339(4)|1364(9)|1387(5)|1400(13)|1421(11)|1438(7)|1455(5)|1470(14)|1487(7)|1508(14)|1529(12)|1548(9)|1565(4)|1580(9)|1591(14) 0 https://youtu.be/EtYnTJ1d6v4 YouTube video 0 Early Family History Susan Clemens-Bruder: Today is August 21, 2012. This interview is with Lenny Abrams, and interviewing is Susan Clemens-Bruder and Gail Eisenberg. So first of all, we’re going to take you back to your family, because it’s really important to show the context of the family and how you got here. So how much do you know about your family ; their names, where they lived, their education, as far back as you know?
 ; 0 409 Family History: 1930s-1940s My father initially got a job in a shirt factory, which was what was called a “spreader”- that was taking the cloth from the bolt and laying it on the table, ply, over ply, over ply, to enable to cut whatever garment it was. And it happened to have been men’s shirts. 0 1327 Unions and Wages SC: May I back you up for one second?
 ; 
 ; LA: Go right ahead.
 ; 
 ; SC: So in New York your dad’s company was a union.
 ; 
 ; LA: Yes.
 ; 
 ; SC: This would make sense. And in Pennsylvania he was going to become a union shop? 0 1687 Fair Business Practices GE: What would you say would be some of the practices that you had which demonstrate that you were fair employers, and tried to treat the employees fairly?
 ; 
 ; LA: There were many, many cases where there were voluntary wage increases that exceeded the union’s agreement. 0 1817 Business Practices (cont'd) SC: Today is August 21st, 2012. Interview, tape number two with Lenny Abrams. So you were talking about Izzie Weinstein.
 ; 
 ; LA: Yes. So Isador Weinstein had a factory in Northampton, Pennsylvania- Clyde Shirt Company. And they were friendly, and the phone would ring and my father would answer the phone, and it was Izzie Weinstein 0 2351 Online Ordering SC: So we’re going back to Paul Frederick, your brand, as online ordering started.
 ; 
 ; LA: Well it started off as a little brochure, a four or five page brochure- buy a white shirt made by the best fabric, the best make, and we advertised in the United States at that time. 0 2546 Manufacturing Insights SC: And where are they manufactured?
 ; 
 ; LA: Today, all are manufactured offshore. I would say we still do some manufacturing in Italy ; some of our ties are still made in Italy, and some of our clothing and trousers are made in Italy. We also make a few products in South America, but 90% of the product comes from the Far East. 0 3256 Relating Education to Real World SC: Do you think that because you did go to college for business, do you think that made a difference in the way you see the world?
 ; 
 ; LA: You know, I like to think it did because there were some basic principles in accounting- I was an accounting major- and certainly the knowledge of numbers and the ability to read a balance sheet properly, and the ability to read somebody else’s balance sheet. 0 3379 More Family History SC: So this is tape 3, interview with Lenny Abrams. Today is August 21, 2012. So maybe we could move back a little bit and talk about your mother’s family?
 ; 
 ; LA: Yes. I indicated that my mother was born in the United States. She was a year older than my father- born the year 1899.
 ; 
 ; GE: Her name was Sarah?
 ; 
 ; LA: Sarah Pomerantz. 0 3816 Jewish Community and Textiles GE: Why do you think, what is your understanding or your thoughts about why that was so common in the Jewish community-- as opposed to other communities?
 ; 
 ; LA: It’s an excellent question and of course if we today, if we were to think of your children and my children, well of course we stress education. We stress the desire of moving up the socio-economic ladder. That was certainly not the case with my maternal grandmother, nor was it the case with my paternal grandfather or grandmother. I have to believe that what it was, was the ability of people like my father and all the others to see that in those days the United States was truly a place where you could better yourself. 0 4232 Involvement in Community SC: Can we move to what you’ve done within the larger community?
 ; 
 ; LA: Sure. Certainly I’m a supporter of the causes throughout the community. I always had a special interest in supporting and being involved in the Jewish community. Early on I was a board member in the Jewish Community Center…
 ; 0 4528 Needle-Trade Contractors Leave the Area SC: And did you work with Arnold Delin in his association?
 ; 
 ; LA: No. Don’t forget Arnold Dellin’s association was to represent manufacturers that were controlled by the International Ladies Garment Workers’ Union. Arnold, or as I call him “Armold”-- because I know him very well-- Arnold had nothing to do with menswear.
 ; 
 ; SC: So you knew him as a friend, not involved with his association?
 ; 
 ; LA: Right. 0 4865 What Has Made You Feel the Most Creative in Life? SC: I have two very filmy questions- getting deeper-into-things questions. The first one is: what has made you feel the most creative in life? 
 ; 
 ; LA: Creative?
 ; 
 ; SC: In the broadest sense ; artistic or creative?
 ; 
 ; LA: I’m not an especially creative or artistic person. My wife was very creative and artistic. I
 ; pride myself more in the ability to execute.
 ; 0 5079 What Do You Value Most in Life? SC: What do you value most in life?
 ; 
 ; LA: I think- I always tell this to my daughter-- character. I often say to my daughter and my ex-son-in-law, if I interview somebody for a job, the most important thing to me, and I’ve learned that, is not do they have the knowledge and the capability right now to do this job. That’s secondary. Do they have character? Because you either have it or you don’t. 0 MovingImage Lenny Abrams talks about his father working in a men’s shirt factory, losing his job during the Great Depression, working as a Union Agent representing the workers in their quest for better pay and work conditions, and then opening his own factory years later making fine men’s shirts. Lenny Abram’s business is one of the few where three generations of owners retired: Lenny, his father, and his former son-in-law. Lenny’s son-in-law successfully adapted the business from contract manufacturing to direct marketing first by catalogue and, later, e-commerce. Interview with Leonard Abrams, August 21, 2012 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER:Today is August 21, 2012. This interview is with Lenny Abrams, and interviewing is Susan Clemens-Bruder and Gail Eisenberg. So first of all, we're going to take you back to your family, because it's really important to show the context of the family and how you got here. So how much do you know about your family ; their names, where they lived, their education, as far back as you know? LEONARD ABRAMS:I certainly will give you that. We'll start with the paternal side. My father, originally Joseph Abramowitz- as I was Lenny Abramowitz, and then Joseph Abrams- was born April 10, 1900, and died February 18th, 2006. So he came within 100 days of having lived in three different centuries. He arrived in this country, he was one of six children ; arrived in this country with, I believe, my grandfather and one sister first. That was then followed by a brother and a sister. And that was followed by my paternal grandmother and two other sisters. There were four sisters and two brothers. He arrived in this country somewhere around 1911 at the age of 11. GAIL EISENBERG:From what country? LA:Poland. GE:Do you know where in Poland? LA:No. I should, but I don't remember what city. Whatever area in Poland it was today it is probably a part of Russia. GE:Right, or Lithuania? LA:Or Lithuania. And so my father had to struggle for an education because he was expected at a very early age to go out and help support the family. And he fought very hard to get as much of an education. He had told me he had persuaded on one occasion my paternal grandfather to listen to a male first cousin of his, who had suggested that why not go to school for another year? So he managed to get through the 6th or 7th grade. Never spoke with an accent, although he was 11. You could not detect that he was not born in the United States. GE:So he only went to the 6th grade here in the States? LA:Yes. He was very much self-educated. He read, I still remember, that as a young boy he thought so highly of Eleanor Roosevelt that when I delivered a eulogy for my father, I said that he just had this passion for Eleanor Roosevelt. If one would know anything of Eleanor Roosevelt, she was not the most attractive woman that had ever crossed. And yet he admired her. And I think one of the reasons he did, and I'm not going to use names in this. Roosevelt was elected in 1932. Shortly after his election, there was something going on in this area and lots of other areas throughout the country, but especially in the textile business, which was known as white slavery. Have either of you heard of white slavery? SC:[No response] GE:[No response] LA:White slavery was, after all, the country was in the Depression. Women probably for the first time had to go out into the world to try to obtain jobs. And it was very, very, difficult, and there were some textile owners who used the occasion of women really pleading for jobs, especially in the textile industry which was 90 to 95 percent female. Women came in for a job. There's a room over there, you go inside the room, you get undressed, and I'll be there shortly. That became known as white slavery. Eleanor Roosevelt personally campaigned after FDR was elected. I wouldn't say a lot of it, but some of it occurred right here in the Lehigh Valley. SC:Where were they living by the way? Were they living in the Lehigh Valley or New York? LA:No, no. My father and mother- my mother was born in the United States of America. Her father died when he was in his early 30s. Also six children. Live poultry market, kosher-killed chickens. I used to kid my mother, may she rest in peace. I would say, is it true mom that in the 1916 Olympics you beat this big Russian lady in chicken plucking? "No it's not true Lenny!" My mother was a year older than my father, so she was born in 1899. My father, probably one of his initial jobs-- GE:What was your mother's name? LA:Sarah, maiden name-- Sarah Pomerantz. My father initially got a job in a shirt factory, which was what was called a "spreader"- that was taking the cloth from the bolt and laying it on the table, ply, over ply, over ply, to enable to cut whatever garment it was. And it happened to have been men's shirts. Then in the early '30s- I was born in 1931- at about the time I was born, and I remember this from later conversations that had occurred, the economy was terrible and my father had lost his job. I was just born, and for about seven or eight months until he landed another job, he would get dressed every morning and leave the house, and my mother never knew that he was out of work. And then he was still unable to get work, so he took a job as a business agent for the Amalgamated Clothing and Textile Workers Union. And when we go back in time, there were two unions that controlled the textile industry. One was the Amalgamated Clothing and Textile Workers Union, which geared itself to the menswear industry. The other was the International Ladies Garment Workers Union, which geared itself to the women's clothing industry. At some point, 20 or 25 years ago, they joined forces, and undoubtedly were forced to because of dropping membership roles as products went offshore. So they joined forces and became what is today known as UNITE- Union of NeedleTrades, Industrial, and Textile Employees. So my father took a job as a business agent for the Union. GE:What does that mean? What did he do? LA:He represented the employees in negotiations, grievances, wage increases, better working conditions, etc. And there was a man out here- we arrived here in 1955. I'll jump ahead for a moment and then I'll go back. We arrived here in 1955. SC:Where did you come from? LA:New York City. My father had a shirt factory in Brooklyn, New York. Scholes Street which was right near the Williamsburg Bridge, and right near I remember a kosher dairy restaurant. The name escapes me. But when we got here in 1955 there was a man that had been out here since the mid '30s, working for somebody else. The man's name was Mac Jacoby. Mac Jacobee was a grandfather to Ronnie kahan, if that name means anything. GE:I do know Ronnie kahan. LA:Ronnie kahan's mother is Sadelle kahan. Of course his name was Mac Jacoby. I knew Sadelle's daughter very well. When we came here in 1955, this Mac Jacoby called my father, and he remembered that in 1935 or 1936 my father had said, "Mac, we're going to have to send you out to Pennsylvania. There are no jobs that we can find for you in New York. But I promise you that in a year or two things will get better in New York, and I'll call you back." So when we arrived in 1955 I was just out of the Army. My father got a call from Mac Jacoby- "Joe, I'm still waiting for your call! It's 1955, you told me at the end of 1935 or early 1936 that you would be calling me within a few months. You have to bring me back to New York!" This was very funny. Alright, now we will go back to where we were. GE:Just take us a second back. Your father was a business agent for the Amalgamated Clothing and Textile Workers Union. And about when was that? LA:That was probably from about 1931 to 1937 or 1938. GE:Ok, so he did it for that long. LA:Yeah, he did it for that long. GE:And one thing is I assume, therefore, he really understood that side of it? LA:He really understood both sides. For a guy without an education he was extremely bright. SC:And when he started working, and he worked in the factories, do you know what factory he worked for? LA:No, no, I don't. SC:But that would've been in Brooklyn also? LA:Well, it would've been in Manhattan probably. There were these small factories that dotted all of Manhattan and Brooklyn, and even later Queens was a spot for many of them. So then my father went back to work, probably in 1937. He was what was called a "Marker." That was the highest position in the cutting process. The process of cutting the shirts, which was laying the patterns out to enable one to get maximum utilization of fabric per unit. That was the highest paid position in the cutting department. SC:And in 1937 of course there was another recession. That was in 1937 to 1938, so that makes sense. LA:Yes. And then he probably saved- I knew my father was saving money because my parents were saving money to go to business. I knew my parents very rarely argued, but I could remember it was probably 1939 or 1940. I must have been just nine or ten years old. I could remember a huge dispute. Why? My mother went out and bought an oval dinette table, which was $62. She could've purchased a rectangular dinette table for $44. So I remember vividly the $18 difference was the crux of the dispute. My father was saving money, and then in 1944 I think he went into business for the first time in Brooklyn, New York. I had no interest as a kid growing up ; later on maybe in 1946 or 1947, I guess I showed a little interest. GE:How many siblings do you have? LA:None, I am an only child. SC:And did he work for the War Effort at all? Was he making anything in 1944? LA:I don't know if he was. I know he worked in the Brooklyn Navy Yard during World War I-- going back to 1916, 1917, and 1918. But I really don't know. I don't think so. GE:And what business was he in-- men's shirts? LA:He was in men's shirts. He was referred to as a "Contractor of Men's Shirts." What does the word "Contractor of Men's Shirts" mean? The definition is really this: the finished product was sold to stores by somebody called a manufacturer ; a shirt manufacturer. Well, shirt manufacturers had design people and sales people, but most of them really did not have production facilities. So they purchased the fabric. The shirt contractor provided the labor to turn the purchased fabric into finished products. And that little niche was referred to as the contractor. So he was a shirt contractor in Brooklyn, New York from around 1945. I went to college at the New York University School of Commerce, which today is the Stern School of Business. And of course one of the reasons was-- I was accepted into Wharton and would have very much liked to have gone there-- but that would have necessitated living away from home. This was out of the question because it was too expensive. So I went to New York University, and I think I got an excellent education. About that period of time, between 1948 and 1952, when I was at New York University, my father had expressed the thought to me that it was becoming more and more difficult to operate in Brooklyn, New York. Labor costs were rising- the same thing which occurred here in the last 25 years, occurred then in New York. Young women much preferred, even if the pay was somewhat less, to be a receptionist in a dental office. You know, I wear a dress, a skirt, or blouse to work every day-- I don't operate a sewing machine. So, at that time already this was becoming more and more evident in New York. During the time that I was at NYU from 1948 to 1952, my father would express the desire to me on several occasions that the time was coming that he would no longer be able to operate. And then he sort of decided that as soon as I graduated college in'52-- the Korean War was on, and I was drafted almost immediately. I graduated college in June, and I was drafted in November. So he waited until I was out of the service, which was 1954. I was married in 1953. My wife passed away- it will be three years in October. So he waited actually until I got out of the service in 1954, and we started looking around and we located in Fleetwood, Pennsylvania. GE:And where is Fleetwood? LA:Fleetwood is a little past Kutztown and on the way to Reading. Fleetwood, Pennsylvania is probably best known for the fact that in the early 20th century, the Fleetwood Cadillac was produced in Fleetwood, Pennsylvania- it still bears the name Fleetwood body for the Cadillac. In Fleetwood, Pennsylvania there was a factory which was owned by Arrow Shirt, which was Cleutt Peabody & ; Company, the largest shirt manufacturer in the United States. And it was one of their smaller facilities. And at that time they were ridding themselves of any facility which produced less than 10,000 dozen a week. They were getting rid of any facility that produced less than 120,000 garments of finished shirts a week. So that became available. And of course the union, although they would've preferred that he remained in New York, the union in New York, or the New York Local, was cooperative with the Pennsylvania Local because it was a foregone conclusion that if you were going to go to Pennsylvania, it was going to have to be as a union shop. So the New York Local and the Pennsylvania Local worked hand-in-hand to try to find a place out in Pennsylvania. Because it was apparent that it was much better if you could find a place in Pennsylvania for Joe Abrams to manufacture shirts in, than if he would have suddenly on his own go to Tennessee or South Carolina, or someplace in the South, which was non-union. SC:May I back you up for one second? LA:Go right ahead. SC:So in New York your dad's company was a union. LA:Yes. SC:This would make sense. And in Pennsylvania he was going to become a union shop? LA:Yes, exactly. It was predetermined that if he was part of the Amalgamated Clothing and Textile Workers Union- Jacob Potofsky the President, I still remember- that moving to Pennsylvania was not in any way going to preclude the necessity of him remaining a union shop, except with the Pennsylvania Local rather than the New York Local. GE:And they were still lower wages? LA:Yes. People find this hard to believe- and I go to China now but we'll get into that later-- in 1955 do you have any idea what the minimum wage in the United States of America was? GE:I would guess 80 cents, 85 cents. LA:Very good- 75 cents an hour. The reason I remember it so vividly, when we started in September of 1955, the Union had asked us- because the Union wanted to show how much they were doing for the employees- so rather than start them off at the minimum wage of 75 cents an hour, we started them at a minimum wage of 80 cents an hour. The Union was able to show its membership what a great concession they managed to squeeze out of the employer. GE:Now what would the wage have been in New York? LA:The wage in New York was at that time probably $1.25 to $1.50. I don't have to tell you the cost of living in the New York metropolitan area as compared especially at that time to living in this area. SC:Did you live in Fleetwood? LA:No, no. And it was easy for us to decide because we were making regular trips back to New York to visit her parents. And it was a heck of a lot closer from Allentown to New York than it was from Reading. It was either you were going to live in Allentown or live in Reading, although it probably would have made a little more sense because Fleetwood, Pennsylvania is probably 40% away from Reading and 60% away from Allentown, so Reading was really closer to Fleetwood. It's in Berks County and Allentown is of course in Lehigh County. SC:And were there a lot of clothing factories? I know the outlets were there for a long time in Reading. LA:Oh yeah, there were a lot. Fortunately at the time- and Fleetwood is a very small town. I would tell people the way you knew it was Fleetwood was because there were three signs, each ten yards apart. The first one "You are now entering, you are now in, you have just left Fleetwood, Pennsylvania." It was a tiny community. What made it a little difficult around the Fleetwood-Kutztown area was that Kutztown during World War II was German and Pennsylvania-Dutch. Pennsylvania-Dutch came from northern Germany and on the border of the Netherlands. And Pennsylvania-Dutch, there was bigotry. In Fleetwood I remember the Union appoints a chair-lady. A chair-lady is the person who represents the employees on the lowest level, meaning grievances. Eva Kunkel, early on she said something and I almost threw her down a flight of stairs. I don't even want to go into what she said. But the one thing I will say is that as the years went by, and it's a long time, but rather quickly, I would say within 10 or 15 years-- both my father and I were very fair employers- there was acceptance. And today I still see people that worked for me. I'm still in Fleetwood, and that's another page of the story. Even though the factory is no longer in existence, I'll take you to that when we get there during the interview. So we found that we were accepted, and we were fair and treated employees very fairly. GE:What would you say would be some of the practices that you had which demonstrate that you were fair employers, and tried to treat the employees fairly? LA:There were many, many cases where there were voluntary wage increases that exceeded the union's agreement. In those days everything was not done on an hourly basis. It was referred to as piece-rate, and of course it was in dozens. The employee received so much per dozen for attaching the collar to the shirt. And these rates were negotiated by the Union, but they had no idea because they didn't have time-study engineers. What they did is they saw what another factory had- and I can still remember there was, I don't know if you heard of Harris Weinstein. Harris owned Dorney Park. We're still friends, even though we were competitors. His daughter, I'm still friends with- Edie Miller- I'm going to see her tomorrow. Her husband, Chester Miller, died just about a year ago. She was the daughter of Izzie Weinstein, the sister to Harris Weinstein. GE:Harris Weinstein, is he still alive? LA:Yes, he lives in Florida. But he's been out of the textile business. He went from Dorney Park to real estate among other things. But I would remember Izzie Weinstein. He spoke with a very heavy accent. I would be in the office or something and Izzie Weinstein would have called my father. SC:Today is August 21st, 2012. Interview, tape number two with Lenny Abrams. So you were talking about Izzie Weinstein. LA:Yes. So Isador Weinstein had a factory in Northampton, Pennsylvania- Clyde Shirt Company. And they were friendly, and the phone would ring and my father would answer the phone, and it was Izzie Weinstein. The conversation would go something like this- "Hello Joe, how are you? What are you paying for a collar setting? I'm fine Izzie, and how are you? And by the way, how much are you paying for sleeve setting?" And the conversation would go on like this for five or six minutes, with each one asking a question, and the other party never answering the question. And then the conversation would end something like this- "Ok Joe, it was nice talking to you. Bye!" Everything was not by the hour, it was piece-rated. So you would say it was fair in many, many cases, although the union said that the piece-rate for attaching the collar to these shirts was 40 cents a dozen. Once I got there and I pretty much involved myself in all the sewing. My father, as I told you, was in the cutting department. And after a while I would realize that 40 cents a dozen for attaching collars- the operator cannot make it. You know, she cannot make a living wage at that piece-rate price. So therefore, I would go to the group of four collar setters, and I would call them into the office and tell them that effective Monday, instead of the piece-rate price being 40 cents a dozen for attaching or setting collars to those shirts, the rate starting next week is 48 cents a dozen. So then, at least in my own mind, I knew that a good operator who was diligent and did it correctly could make a living wage at 48 cents a dozen, which was 20 percent more than the 40 cents. SC:And no one talks about a living wage anymore in 2012. LA:Yeah, I know. And of course we did that from 1955 to 1985. And I was manufacturing shirts for the finest names. I was manufacturing shirts for Saks Fifth Avenue, Bergdorf. On one occasion when my father was in his 90s, I had to go to New York, and I went into Bergdorf Goodman. and I saw a shirt that I had made. It was a formal shirt to be worn with a tuxedo, and I just asked the sales person to please take it out to look at it. Then I whispered to my father, who was in wonderful physical condition and walking twice around Trexler Park in his late 90s. Then when I asked the sales price to the sales person and he said $180, my father whispered in my ear, "Lenny that's for a dozen isn't it?" He knew it, but that was his way of telling me the way things had changed. SC:You must have garnered an awful lot of loyalty from the people who had worked for you? LA:Of course, or otherwise we wouldn't have remained there. I'm going to jump ahead- the plant operator from 1955 to 2000, when I closed it in the year 2000. From 1955 to 1985 I went along and I was a shirt contractor. In 1985 my younger daughter married a gentleman named Paul Sacher, who is still in town. And they both had received masters in business administration from Tulane University, where they met. My daughter had graduated from Duke and then after a year or two of employment in the banking area, went to Tulane for her masters and they met. They were divorced a year-and-a-half ago, but the relationship between myself and my ex-son-in-law is just wonderful. In fact, at the time, I told my daughter Cathy that's strictly between the two of you, but certainly you understand that our 26 year relationship is wonderful. It really is, because the kids have grown up and they haven't suffered. But in any case, by 1985 I had not only the one factory in Fleetwood, Pennsylvania, I had opened a second factory in 1976 in Millville, New Jersey, which is just south of Vineland. And I was also a partner in a factory in New Orleans, Louisiana at that time. And once again the gentleman I was partners with was a very fine manufacturer, and he wanted to have a plant, so we were partners in the factory. I created the factory for him. New Orleans at that time was very fortunate, because there were a lot of Vietnamese who had come and settled in the New Orleans area because of the fishing industry. And they were very, very good when they were taught. They have marvelous manual dexterity, terrific manual dexterity. SC:And a good work ethic? LA:Oh yes. And I don't know if you're going to want to delete this from the interview, but what you never hear from American politicians, whether they are Democratic or Republican is that going back to the year 2000, I'm not familiar with it in the year 2012, but the Chinese or Vietnamese counterpart to the American sewing machine operator, in addition to being paid 10% of what the American counterpart is making, they are at least 150% as productive. So now the 10 to 1 wage edge becomes a 15 to 1 wage edge ; but you don't hear that. So 1985 rolls around, and my son-in-law realized that we had all of the ingredients to-- catalog was very big, the internet was just on the horizon, and you could see it coming. So we went into a separate business called Paul Frederick Men's Style Inc. SC:May we have one of the catalogs? LA:Yes, these are for you. SC:So we're going back to Paul Frederick, your brand, as online ordering started. LA:Well it started off as a little brochure, a four or five page brochure- buy a white shirt made by the best fabric, the best make, and we advertised in the United States at that time. SC:In the Wall Street Journal? LA:Yes, in the Wall Street Journal and space ads inside of page two. GE:And you were doing this as direct marketing? LA:Yes, direct marketing. Suddenly, from a shirt contractor who made shirts for other manufacturers, who then sold it to the consumer, suddenly we were going direct to the consumer. We were even eliminating the manufacturer, and of course there were tremendous price advantages for the consumer. And from the little space ads, it then became a little brochure that was mailed out to the small mailing list we had. And of course as the years passed, we probably sent out 36 different catalogs a year- nine per season- for each of four seasons. And then of course Paul recognized the fact that the internet was the shopping experience of tomorrow, and we created for Paul Frederick an internet presence, which if you go on the internet you will see a lot more than you are seeing here. GE:So it is very much catalog and internet? LA:Yes, it has evolved into not only shirts. As you can see it is men's suits, outerwear, and neckties. What we did was there was a natural evolution once he came aboard in 1985 or 1986, and as we saw shirts we were initially using for the photographs a few ties of mine. And suddenly some of the customers were saying, "Boy that was a nice tie on page two!" Of course there was only one of them, which I had purchased. Well the natural evolution, as long as it was initially dress shirts, and then it became neckwear. After neckwear then it became men's sport shirts and dress shirts. And then it became men's accessories- leather belts, shoes, suits, sport jackets, trousers. GE:And all of this is high-end? LA:Yes, it is all high-end. SC:And where are they manufactured? LA:Today, all are manufactured offshore. I would say we still do some manufacturing in Italy ; some of our ties are still made in Italy, and some of our clothing and trousers are made in Italy. We also make a few products in South America, but 90% of the product comes from the Far East. SC:And do you actually own the manufacturing companies? LA:No. And the Chinese have become so adept and so proficient. I tell the story which only happened a year-and-a-half ago. When you go back to the late 1970s, early 1980s, something suddenly presented itself. Remember where I told you my father, Joe Abrams, would move the patterns around, and he was called the marker because he traced around the pattern, located it here and moved this here. Suddenly our industry became CAD-CAM. What is CAD-CAM? Computer Assisted Design, Computer Assisted Manufacture. I was in Asia a year-and-a-half ago in Guangdong Province, China, and our main vendor is a wonderful man who we have a wonderful relationship with. He is especially wonderful because he knows I know. There are not many guys who he comes in contact with, so he enjoys my presence even more because he takes such pride in what he and his people do. So he shows me into a room which is all Computer Assisted Design, all computers and all Asian people. Finally one man turns around and he's not Asian, and he looks at me and says, "Lenny Abrams!?" And I say, "Al Panebianco!?" I turn to my merchandising manager and I say, "I told you I know everybody." This was a guy from Philadelphia, older than me by four or five years. I had gotten to know him, and I really tried to learn from him because I knew he was way upfront with Computer Assisted Design and Manufacturing. It was Al Pane, but I still called him Panebianco because that was his real name. Even though he was retired, it turns out that he spends two six-week periods every year, 12 out of every 52 weeks, he spends in China as a consultant for this man that owned the plant that I do business with. One Caucasian in Guangdong Province and Lenny Abrams knows him- 34 million Chinese. So getting back, we evolved from the mid-1980s to the present with a company that is really thriving. But as long as we are going to do it, people are going to say the jobs are taken away from us. America lost jobs. Well, we look at it this way- I look at it a little differently. Sure there were 200 manufacturing jobs that existed in Fleetwood, Pennsylvania for Fleetwood Shirts, which was the name of the company. Let's say for a moment those 200 jobs generated at the time $20,000 a year. Well if you multiply 200 jobs by $20,000, I think you're going to come up with $4 million. Well today there are no manufacturing jobs, but we employ about 120 and probably the average earnings are $60,000 a year. Well now multiply 120 by $60,000- that's $7.2 million, as opposed to the $4 million. GE:So you still employ 120 people? LA:Sure. We have telemarketers, we have marketing people, merchandising people, and we pick and pack. Another building became available. We realized the building the factory was located in-- and don't forget it started in 1985, and I was still manufacturing-- that building wasn't going to become available for Paul Frederick anyway. So we had a makeshift building, and then this became available-- it's a 66,000 one-story building in Fleetwood that originally manufactured these huge freezers that you see in supermarkets-- you know, the huge freezers in the back. They were manufacturing and the company went bankrupt. We bought the building, converted it completely, and today it is more because we've added square footage over the years. We probably bought the building in the early 1990s, I forgot but I could certainly check. So we probably owned the building for 20 years in that area now-- and have added square footage to the building on several occasions. SC:So that's where Paul Frederick is located? LA:Yes. We also have our own photographic studio, which we were initially photographing in New York. But we do almost all of our own photography these days, which is also a big savings. GE:So in a sense is this product line akin to what somebody would buy at Nordstrom? LA:Yes, the product line today- our biggest competitors would be Brooks Brothers, Joseph A. Bank, and Nordstrom. Those are our primary competitors. GE:Right, and where they are retailers you are a catalog-- LA:But don't forget, so is Brooks Brothers today. GE:But they still have stores. LA:Yes, they have brick and mortar. GE:And you're not brick and mortar. LA:Think of us as Amazon versus Wal-Mart. Compare Amazon to Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart is bricks and mortar, and Amazon is absolutely no bricks and mortar ; all, everything online. Certainly with technology improving all of the time, we're now into trying to see what other people are doing and developing. If only we could get you to be able to touch and feel, because if you go shopping, boy it's nice sometimes to feel that fabric, especially clothes. To try it on, the virtual-- how do you create the virtual fitting room online. These are things that are not going to be in my lifetime anymore but it's going to come-- it will be there. GE:This interests me because I teach marketing. So this is also a lot like database marketing, and a database of people? LA:Yes. We have probably a 12 month mailing list today of 250,000. GE:Well I want you to know my son just graduated law school and starts in October at a law firm, but I am going to say this to him, because I know that he needs to have very good shirts and suits. And I assume this is cheaper. LA:See if he is going to, you should tell him to go to the section which has- he just graduated law school, he's not married is he? Single? GE:He just got married two weeks ago. LA:Does she like washing shirts? GE:I'm sure she doesn't. LA:Well we're not going to talk about that! There is an entire section which reads, "No Iron." GE:And these are still very fine? LA:Oh yes, they are very fine. Trust me, you just throw it in the washer and dry it and it comes out fine since it is all cotton, it's not a synthetic. GE:He's telling me, because he had ordered a shirt for his wedding from a place- I'm sure it was made in China- from a tailor that measures you and whatever. LA:Hong Kong, maybe? GE:Right, but he lives in Chicago, and in Chicago somebody measured him. I think it was $90 or $100, which to me is a lot of money. And I said that is ridiculous, but he said, "Mom, it fits so nicely, and for work that's what I'm going to do." LA:Well tell him to try one! I take pleasure in my declining years-- GE:You know, this is the only one that's still alive and in operation. In part it sounds like to me we can't compete being the producer. You can only compete frankly having the brand. LA:As a matter of fact we just had a woman who came in and spent two full days with us from Colorado- was a branding expert. We brought her in and she lectured, and up until yesterday I had her 280 page report- I brought it into the office because I was reading it there. SC:Do you think that because you did go to college for business, do you think that made a difference in the way you see the world? LA:You know, I like to think it did because there were some basic principles in accounting- I was an accounting major- and certainly the knowledge of numbers and the ability to read a balance sheet properly, and the ability to read somebody else's balance sheet. Along about even before, oh it must have been in the 1970s, there were several firms- one was Eagle Clothing, an American clothing manufacturer who operated in Manhattan and Brooklyn. And they made an offer to buy the plant because they figured as long as they had tailored clothing and shirts. And of course all of these potential transactions were going to be stock-based, because you weren't getting money ; you were getting somebody else's paper and somebody else's stock certificates. And at that particular time, and there were two instances, Eagle was just one of them, and I looked at their balance sheet and their P& ; L statement, and I said you know, I just don't think they're going to be able to continue with the bottom-line that they've been able to do up until now because this is going to increase. Well that arose from my ability to be able to read a statement, whether it be a P& ; L or a balance sheet as a result of the education that the School of Commerce gave me. I would like to think that some of the reason for whatever success there was, was education-based. SC:So this is tape 3, interview with Lenny Abrams. Today is August 21, 2012. So maybe we could move back a little bit and talk about your mother's family? LA:Yes. I indicated that my mother was born in the United States. She was a year older than my father- born the year 1899. GE:Her name was Sarah? LA:Sarah Pomerantz. GE:And where is her family from? LA:From, I'm not even sure- Eastern Europe. But once again, born in the United States in a live poultry market. A father and mother-- GE:When did they come? LA:Well my mother was born in the United States in 1899, so I would guess they probably came somewhere between 1880 and 1890. GE:And did she have other siblings? LA:Oh yes. She had a twin brother and two other brothers, and another set of twins- a brother and a sister who were twins. GE:And was everybody born here? LA:Yes. Everybody had to be born here because she was the oldest. She and her twin brother were the oldest. GE:And did her parents come already as a married couple? LA:Yes. SC:And there are Pomerantzs in Bethlehem, I believe. LA:Unrelated. There was a Pomerantz right here in Allentown. There was Danny Pomerantz, and I knew Danny well. GE:I think he was a lawyer? LA:Yes. He was a past president as well of the Federation as I am, but he was unrelated. We had gotten into that on more than one occasion. SC:So the poultry market- they were living in New York also in Brooklyn, in the Williamsburg area? LA:No, they were living in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. SC:Ok and they had a poultry market? LA:The poultry market was located in I think the Bronx. So they traveled by subway to the poultry market- I think it was in the Bronx. We always managed to talk more about my father's side of the family. You think there were these skeletons in the closet on my mother's side? Possibly? SC:We all have them! And so one of the issues we're interested in is the entrepreneurship that seems to run in families. And maybe it's not in the needle-trade but-- LA:It's interesting that you mention it because in my mother's family, her twin brother owned a live poultry market. The next brother owned a service station, a gas station in Lower Manhattan. The next brother owned a women's pocketbook factory in Brooklyn, New York. And the youngest- one of whom, they were twins, a brother and a sister- he had a service station in Brooklyn on DeKalb Avenue. And I remember that because he helped me to purchase my first car- a used Chevy. GE:On your father's side, he was one also of several? LA:He was one of six. GE:How about on that side of the family- were they also in little businesses? LA:His brother- he had one brother and four sisters. Interestingly enough on his side he had a sister, who was his favorite sister, who worked for him many years in the factory in the office. And when my father passed away in 2006-- GE:So she lived in this area? She came to this area, his sister?LA:No, no. Don't forget that was just in Brooklyn. Once he moved out of Brooklyn that was done, and then she passed away. But when he passed away in 2006, he was survived by a younger sister who lived several years- Aunt Frieda. Now Frieda-- I didn't know her very well-- but I knew from listening to my father that Frieda never had one good day her entire life. She was married to an abusive husband, one daughter who stopped speaking to her-- and that was interesting. So my father once a month would always send a check to Aunt Frieda, and the caregivers would remind me- because for the last couple of years he could no longer write. I would send a check to Aunt Frieda once a month. And the caregivers would remind me on those days to not forget to send a check to Aunt Frieda. Well, now my father passed away, and the only time I was speaking to Aunt Frieda since she never made long distance calls as she lives in some place in Long Island. And she'd call me to remind me that she didn't get any mail from me. Well I never wrote Aunt Frieda long letters, I'd only send checks. GE:Right, that was the polite way of saying yet. LA:That was her polite way of saying it, that your check never came. And then I guess it was only about two years ago that she passed away. So there certainly was longevity in my father's-- well I should say that my mother passed away in-- My father and mother died on the same day 13 years apart. GE:So it sounds like on your mother's side they were all in little businesses? LA:Yeah. They were entrepreneurs on my mother's side. And on my father's side one younger brother was in business for himself, unfortunately not successfully. GE:Why do you think, what is your understanding or your thoughts about why that was so common in the Jewish community-- as opposed to other communities? LA:It's an excellent question and of course if we today, if we were to think of your children and my children, well of course we stress education. We stress the desire of moving up the socio-economic ladder. That was certainly not the case with my maternal grandmother, nor was it the case with my paternal grandfather or grandmother. I have to believe that what it was, was the ability of people like my father and all the others to see that in those days the United States was truly a place where you could better yourself. If you worked hard, if you learned as much as you could about what you were doing, and worked hard at it, there was opportunity. It truly, in those years from early in the 20th century, from 1911 going forward, the United States was the land of opportunity-- especially for entrepreneurs. It didn't come from their parents in my father and mother's generation, but they had enough street smarts to realize this themselves. They looked around, and they said, "Look at that guy over there. He's got his own business-- I know he's not a whole lot smarter than me. He didn't really have a whole lot more money than I did when I started. Why not? Why can't I follow in those footsteps?" There was opportunity. They recognized the opportunity and they jumped at it. GE:Well you know on your mother's side it sounds like even her parents-- LA:Oh yeah. I was not as close-- I never knew my maternal grandfather. And my maternal grandmother-- there was always of course the language problem because all of the three grandparents of mine, none of the three spoke English. It was only Yiddish. You learn some Yiddish as you go along, but certainly not enough to become completely conversational. SC:Do you think that people stayed within the community, the ethnic and religious community, to further their business initially? LA:I think initially that was it. And then of course they realized that you couldn't inhibit yourself by remaining in a capsule or remaining in one tiny little niche. So they adventured out of that cloistered environment, realizing that it was a big country. GE:And those that didn't perhaps didn't prosper as well? LA:Of course there was, needless to say, and I should have mentioned, because from my business in addition to what this is, Rose Cathy has a business. She became very interested in horses when she was 11. And after she graduated from Tulane, and after her brief banking [career] of a year or two, she wanted to become an entrepreneur. So she has a niche where she makes the finest riding shirts for women who ride horses-- you see them in the Olympics, you see them in shows. The name of her company is Essex Classics, Inc. And she has a very nice thriving business which you see all around here-- she's gradually moving me out slowly. GE:Is this also an internet business? LA:Yes, because once again she sells to many of the stores that are both represented in catalogs and on the internet. She has only begun to sell directly to the consumer in a small way with what are called clearance closeouts. But everything else is through the retail establishment, and in most cases there is a physical presence-- bricks and mortar in those cases. So she is also from that, and has created a related kind of a business. Related in that I helped her to get started, and then she took the ball and ran with it. GE:And even your business initially, even from 1955 to 1985, you made shirts, but you always made fine shirts. LA:If you wanted fine shirts, you came to Lenny Abrams. GE:And when you say that, was that just on the different manufacturers-- would they go to you just from the east coast? Did you have a national reputation, a regional reputation? LA:I would say it was more regional, but then again the men's clothing industry was always centered around Manhattan. Of course as the years passed there was a distinct presence in other large metropolitan areas as well. Certainly New York was the base of the textile industry. SC:Can we move to what you've done within the larger community? LA:Sure. Certainly I'm a supporter of the causes throughout the community. I always had a special interest in supporting and being involved in the Jewish community. Early on I was a board member in the Jewish Community Center-- GE:So you came here in the mid 1950s- how old were your children at the time? LA:One was born in New York in 1955. Cathy was born in Allentown in 1956-- a year and eight days apart. But she was born here in Allentown. We moved here in September or October of 1955, and she was born in May of 1966. SC:Did you always live in this house? LA:No. We lived in Valley View Apartments, number 209 for two years. GE:And Valley View Apartments are where? LA:Valley View Apartments, if you take a ride over, if you're on the South Side go over the 15th Street Bridge. Valley View Apartments if you drive around there today and there's a good chance you'll be the only Caucasian. Then we moved and built a house on Greenleaf and 25th Street- the southeast corner of Greeleaf and 25th. We moved into the house in 1957. So we lived in Valley View Apartments for two years, and the reason we bought the house- the lot was $3,000, and I could afford to spend $22,000 for the house, so that the whole cost was not more than $25,000. GE:And I'm sorry, where was that? LA:2446 Greenleaf Street- the southeast corner of Greenleaf and 25th Street. GE:You want to know who I think lives there? LA:Arnold Finklestein, Arnold and Marlene Finklestein built a lovely house just on the other corner. GE:I was thinking that Barbara Weinrach lives right near there. My children went to her to play piano. LA:Yes. Barbara Weinrach taught my granddaughter for a while. They may still live around there. GE:I remember it was somewhere right around there. LA:And then we lived there, and actually we lived there until 1991. We've only been in this house for 21 years. SC:So you've worked in the community just generally? LA:No. After serving as a board member for the Jewish Community Center, I became more interested in the Federation. I was Campaign Chair, and then I was President for two years. When Ivan Schonfeld was the Executive Director, I was President at that time-- for at least two of those years. GE:And at the JCC you were a board member? LA:Yes. I'm still an honorary Vice President of the Federation, and I'm an honorary board member, I think for life or something like that. SC:Was your wife also involved? LA:She was not involved to the extent that I was. She was always active in Hadassah and other organizations, but not in leadership roles. She preferred to take a backseat. SC:And as far as the general community is concerned, the Allentown community, did you get involved in any organizations? GE:Or even the Association business-wise? LA:I know I got a gift from Mayor Daddona once for doing something but I don't even remember what it was. I was also honored somewhere back for Israel bonds at a dinner. My father and mother were alive then, and so it was for the family because we purchased Israel bonds. SC:And did you work with Arnold Delin in his association? LA:No. Don't forget Arnold Dellin's association was to represent manufacturers that were controlled by the International Ladies Garment Workers' Union. Arnold, or as I call him "Armold"-- because I know him very well-- Arnold had nothing to do with menswear. SC:So you knew him as a friend, not involved with his association? LA:Right. And I watched with interest his declining membership, and I pointed out some 20 years before it broke up that he was going to wind up with two. SC:As the contractors moved south-- LA:As the contractors disappeared-- it wasn't only a question of moving South. Some used the South as an intermediary stopping point on the way to Asia or Central America, or Mexico. Some didn't-- some were smart enough to figure out, "why should I go from the slate belt of Pennsylvania to Mississippi for 2.5 years when I'm going to end up in the Far East?" GE:And a lot just left-- they left the whole industry. I'm assuming also, I don't know if this is correct or not, but as it became more productive, I assume they just needed fewer of the contractors. The same factory was just producing more shirts than they were used to producing. LA:The same factory in the United States? GE:Right, or wherever it was. Here and then later there-- it was becoming more automated. LA:No. The textile industry became somewhat automated, but nothing comparable to so many other industries. I remember Keebler had a factory right on I-78, which employed one person. So our industry became somewhat automated. The Computer Assisted Design and Manufacturers helped, but the greatest assistance that came- instead of somebody standing at a table with huge patterns. It was all reduced to miniatures on a screen, and you moved it around on a screen and pressed a button. That's where the primary move came. Most of these products in the textile industry are labor-intensive products. A shirt is a very labor intensive product. GE:Is it still? LA:Yes, it's a very labor intensive product. Quite obviously the more complicated the garment, the more of an intensity of labor is needed. The more intense the labor requirements, the greater the benefit of going overseas. To make something very simple- let's look at a napkin, just sewing the four edges-- you could probably still make that in the United States, because labor is such an insignificant part of that product. This shirt for example, the labor is a very, very significant part. SC:And I really like that shirt by the way- it's a very nice shirt. LA:Even at age 81, I'm proud of what I think I've been able to accomplish over a 57 year period or whatever it is. SC:And it's still going. LA:Yeah. And I still enjoy going in several times a week. I would have been there today had we not had this interview. Because quite candidly-- and I love Nate Braunstein who is a dear friend of mine and Milten Sheftel who I have known forever. I find that by staying active, even at this age, that only I believe it, whether it's true, that I'm somewhat better off than some of my contemporaries who have stopped doing that. SC:I have two very filmy questions- getting deeper-into-things questions. The first one is: what has made you feel the most creative in life? LA:Creative? SC:In the broadest sense ; artistic or creative? LA:I'm not an especially creative or artistic person. My wife was very creative and artistic. I pride myself more in the ability to execute. SC:That's creative! That's very creative! LA:Given a certain scenario, I am probably best at bringing that from the creative birth, to the finished unit. SC:But it's a practical creativity. LA:I can, you know, the years have given me an insight, and I can recognize probably more quickly than some people in terms of what is going to be good and what is not going to be good. I must say that I'm not the most creative or artistic guy that there ever was. If I rated myself from one to ten on an artistic-creative scale, I'd be down around two, three, or four. I'm not going to be up to six, seven, eight, nine, ten. But I can execute. SC:Do you think that's a key to what makes a good business person? LA:I think if you are going to manufacture something, you better damn well know how to execute ; because that is where it's at. Getting it from what somebody thinks is going to be really good to a finished product with everything it takes to alter this, that, compromise this or that, but get to the finished product. I think that's my strong suit. GE:And of the various types of executions that you've done over the years, is there any that you feel would be at the apex of what you thought made you the most proud? LA:I think that the ability to sit with you today, at this age, and know that with my help and assistance, and whatever cooperation, that this survives. And my daughter has Essex Classics, which is very successful. I think that is what gives me the most pride-- the fact that so many other people that I know were able to go so far. And then whether the sign of the times, the inability to move faster into another area, where they have given up, I managed to survive it and still be a presence today at this point. SC:What do you value most in life? LA:I think- I always tell this to my daughter-- character. I often say to my daughter and my ex-son-in-law, if I interview somebody for a job, the most important thing to me, and I've learned that, is not do they have the knowledge and the capability right now to do this job. That's secondary. Do they have character? Because you either have it or you don't. So the ability to tell and to discern character in somebody else. I had in 1976-- I was operating in Fleetwood, Pennsylvania-- and the accounting firm I used was in New York City. They sent out somebody to do the quarterly audit for me in the business. This particular occasion it was a very heavyset, very young, heavy-accented Italian man. And in order to be polite during his first visit-- his name was Rossolino Alino. I said Ross, if you need a place to stay tonight- I recommended the Holiday Inn on 309 and 22, which is now a Days Inn, I believe. Earlier in the day he said, "I thank you but I don't need a place to stay because I have a friend in Kutztown." All day long this guy with a very heavy Italian accent from New York, I'm thinking, "How does he wind up with a Pennsylvania-Dutch friend?" Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:26:36
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Leonard Abrams, August 21, 2012
Description
An account of the resource
Lenny Abrams talks about his father working in a men’s shirt factory, losing his job during the Great Depression, working as a Union Agent representing the workers in their quest for better pay and work conditions, and then opening his own factory years later making fine men’s shirts. Lenny Abram’s business is one of the few where three generations of owners retired: Lenny, his father, and his former son-in-law. Lenny’s son-in-law successfully adapted the business from contract manufacturing to direct marketing first by catalogue and, later, e-commerce.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LVTNT-35
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-08-21
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.
-
https://textile.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/1574ddccac666260951da2b8b4996ab5.png
5ced9df43be0d70b1794914638aed987
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Leonard Bloch
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-31.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 July 25, 2011 Leonard and Beverley Bloch, July 25, 2011 LVTNT-31 1:59:56 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Leonard Bloch Beverley Bloch Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 BlochLeonard_Beverley_20110725 1.0:|25(4)|48(9)|73(7)|92(3)|109(7)|128(4)|159(5)|184(8)|199(16)|218(5)|247(11)|264(11)|281(3)|300(7)|313(13)|330(14)|357(3)|370(12)|385(14)|402(2)|429(10)|448(4)|475(11)|494(13)|511(6)|536(6)|555(10)|574(8)|599(6)|616(9)|631(15)|650(6)|665(13)|682(7)|711(17)|736(17)|751(15)|768(17)|783(11)|806(10)|827(8)|844(3)|865(6)|886(8)|905(14)|922(12)|941(13)|962(5)|981(4)|996(10)|1029(11)|1056(4)|1085(6)|1106(5)|1127(8)|1156(3)|1185(3)|1204(15)|1219(9)|1240(11)|1261(3)|1276(16)|1303(10)|1328(10)|1353(13)|1382(8)|1397(15)|1414(3)|1451(8)|1486(6)|1501(3)|1520(17)|1539(10)|1570(7)|1599(5)|1614(3)|1647(8)|1666(9)|1685(5)|1702(4)|1739(16)|1758(11)|1779(7)|1808(13)|1835(13)|1856(6)|1877(8)|1902(3)|1925(8)|1948(11)|1969(13)|2000(5)|2025(12)|2054(2)|2083(5)|2114(5)|2139(2)|2158(5)|2179(6)|2198(5)|2219(14)|2242(5)|2265(15)|2286(13)|2311(10)|2338(4)|2361(13)|2382(13)|2405(4)|2428(12)|2451(14)|2476(14)|2499(5)|2522(13)|2543(14)|2570(13)|2597(12)|2620(12)|2643(5)|2666(17) 0 https://youtu.be/42fll13b1xU YouTube video 10 Early Family History SC: Today is July 25, 2011, an interview- attending is Gail Eisenberg and Susan Clemens-Bruder. Hi. First of all, I would like to put you into context. And so if you could give your full name and your birth date?
 ; 
 ; LB: Leonard Bloch, January 29, 1935.
 ; 
 ; SC: Where were you born, and where did you live in your early life?
 ; 
 ; LB: I was born in Wilmington, DE. Lived there at the most two years, I’m not sure the exact [time], and then my parents moved back to Allentown and I’ve lived here ever since. 0 269 Father's Business GE: What did your father do for a living?
 ; 
 ; LB: My father worked for Sears Roebuck. He was the manager of the furniture department with Sears Roebuck. Sears was located on 7th Street at that time between Linden and Turner, and then they decided to build a new store which was located on 7th Street between Tilghman and Allen. During that period of time, they transferred my father to their Wilmington, DE store for about a two or three year period, and after that, he came back to Allentown, and he started in the garment business in approximately 1944-1945. 0 381 Leonard's Start in the Business SC: So — and we’ll come back to all that — but tell me a little bit more about you, as far as what was your educational background and how did you become involved in a business, and where did you work, actually, all your life? Did you have little jobs when you were young and then move into the garment industry?
 ; 
 ; LB: How young?
 ; 
 ; SC: As young as you can be. Paperboy?
 ; 
 ; LB: No, I was never a paperboy. During the war, I used to, on the weekend, go around with my wagon and collect. At that time there was always a drive for some scrap metal, old rubber tires, and drippings from fats was used for munitions, and I would collect that and then sell it. Gas stations had places where you could buy that. I guess I was meant for the garment industry because we lived at 630 N. 23rd Street, had a nice front porch, and I invited all my friends on the porch, and I had little looms, and they made potholders. 0 612 Ideas of Early Businesses LB: So they were going to go into some business. And their first thought was a luncheonette. Well first, actually their first thought they were thinking of the potato chip business, manufacturing potato chips.
 ; 
 ; GE: Her, her- Interesting, her husband's family is Charles Chips.
 ; 
 ; LB: Oh, really.
 ; 
 ; GE: Yeah, her ex-husband’s.
 ; 
 ; SC: So they were thinking about that. And that was a perfect time to do it if you could get the oil.
 ; 
 ; LB: They looked into the potato chip business, and they were all set to do that, and then they discovered that you don't get a pound of potato chips from a pound of potatoes when the water comes out it's a big difference, so it wasn't quite the gold mine that it appeared to be at first. So they rented one of these small apartments, and they were going to put a luncheonette there. 0 866 Business Operations SC: Can you talk a little bit now about the business? What were the operations, what- how- how did you set it up, or your father set it up and you continue it?
 ; 
 ; LB: Well, as I said, my dad was not really a garment man, so he made polo shirts, and he really wasn't interested in making other types of garments. The polo shirt market was not one that I saw a future in even in the early 1950s. At that time, rather than things being manufactured in other countries, there was a migration to the South. There was a lot of clothing being made in the South. So I started looking at other types of clothing to make, and my dad always told me that if you go to work every day and you’re there in the morning, whatever you do, if you make a mistake or whatever you do, we’ll work it out, don't worry about it. Just be on time and we won't worry about mistakes, and he was always true to that. I did some crazy things. Most of them worked out. 0 1560 Competition in the Area GE: But while you were doing this, were there many other bouffant manufacturers in the area, or were you primarily the only one?
 ; 
 ; LB: There were a few others around, but... they had a lot of trouble.
 ; 
 ; GE: They didn't have some of these innovative ideas.
 ; 
 ; LB: If you can just imagine a seamstress getting starch in her eyes is- is a significant thing. The goggles that I got prevented a lot of it, but I also had an arrangement with a local physician where- when they got impacted, I would have them taken up to the doctor's office, they would clean out their eyes, and it had just gone in so it would just be in the corners. It was fine. 0 1713 More About the Business SC: So I have a couple of questions. First of all, in the ‘60s, what happened with the bouffant business and was polo generic polo shirts, or was it for Polo?
 ; 
 ; LB: T-shirt — no, it was not for Polo. 
 ; 
 ; SC: So the idea of generic polo, because Polo then had the name.
 ; 
 ; LB: Today, polo shirts are called t-shirts, and it’s one of the biggest items, but it’s very difficult to find a store that carries American made t-shirts. They are all made off-shore. And that was something that was actually- you could forecast was going to happen. Following WWII, the world was flat, and they needed industry, and there is no more exportable industry, at least as I read the tea leaves, then the garment industry. 0 2181 Unions SC: When the business started, did your father embrace the union right away, and was this something that you were committed to, to having the union in your operations?
 ; 
 ; LB: My dad did embrace the union very early on, and I was committed to it, absolutely. 0 2245 Business Anecdotes SC: So do you have any anecdotes about or stories that you remember about your years in the business? Anything that just strikes you — funny, sad, interesting?
 ; 
 ; LB: I made mention a few moments ago about sliding the cartons down the outdoor fire escape. Well, the first time that I did that, it was for a local company called Movie Star. Actually, it was a New York company, but they had a plant in Allentown, a shipping point in Allentown. And before I had the chute made, we actually just went out the fire escape door and dropped the boxes down one at a time. Well, the first time I did this, the truck driver thought we were crazy. He came running upstairs to use the telephone and called his boss, a man named Charlie Halperin [?]. And Charlie heard this, “He’s throwing your bouffants out the window!” 0 2425 Business Skills and Practices SC: What skills did you have? How did you divide the skills, for instance, there is the floor person, floor lady, and were all the workers women?
 ; 
 ; LB: No, I had — well, I had a cutting department, and the cutters were, the cutter was always a man. The shipper, the shipping clerk. In those days, you wouldn’t think of a female shipping clerk. So- and I had a mechanic, had a very good mechanic was one of the keys to being successful with some of these different things because a mechanic not only fixed machines and keep them running and sewing machines can constantly break, and if you skip a stitch, it’s a second, it has to be repaired ; but he could make attachments. 0 3055 Real Estate Owner LB: No. No. First I just bought, we just bought a couple of buildings, and then I actually built a few buildings. The largest one was in Allentown, 48 apartments.
 ; 
 ; GE: Oh, where? Which? I mean, is it just- is it a complex?
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah. Garden Apartments, South Tioga Street.
 ; 
 ; GE: Okay. I don’t know…is that South Allentown?
 ; 
 ; SC: That’s South Allentown.
 ; 
 ; LB: And I had some in Emmaus. You might know — we owned at one point the Powder Mill Apartments back on Furnace Street. 0 3333 Bloch Children Involvement? GE: Any of your children- Did any of your children get involved either in the real estate part or in the garment, in the textile?
 ; 
 ; LB: No, not really. Our oldest son, Craig, is a pediatrician. Our daughter sold advertising space for a Washington newspaper, and now she is a special education teacher for reading. 0 3465 Flex-time for the Employees SC: This is tape number 3, July 25th, 2011, an interview with Leonard Bloch. And can we talk about flex time? When you started flex time before probably anybody did and also how you allowed women to work with their families in mind in other ways?
 ; 
 ; LB: I was able to handle flexible hours. If an employee had an elderly parent or children or whatever the need might be, they did not have to work 7 1/2 continuous hours. That was our...overtime was first over 7 1/2 and then over 7. But they could work, have an extra hour or two for lunch or just work mornings or just work afternoons or a combination of mornings and evenings or just evenings, and it worked out well for them, and it didn’t hurt me. I could- I had their loyalty. If I needed a favor in return, it was no problem. 0 3608 Lehigh Valley Textile Industry GE: No, and then we will talk about a little bit when you were saying in terms of family, as well as your sense . . . how about your sense of the Allentown textile industry, or I shouldn’t say the Allentown, I should say the Lehigh Valley — because there were a lot of contractors, correct?
 ; 
 ; LB: There were. There were several hundred in the Lehigh Valley at one time.
 ; 
 ; GE: Right. Can you just tell us a little bit about that? Was there much collaboration among the contractors? Was it very competitive among the contractors? How did all- some of those things…?
 ; 
 ; LB: It was a competitive market. It was competitive for help, seamstresses. It was competitive for getting the work, getting the contracts for- Speaking of contracts, it’s not in the usual context of a contract. 0 3775 Never Joined the Atlantic Apparel Association GE: What about, were you associated with the contractors association? Because we spoke with, we did meet with Arnold Delin.
 ; 
 ; LB: Yes- No, I never joined. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Okay, just wondering. Okay, why? You didn’t feel it was in your interest, or…?
 ; 
 ; LB: Well, obviously, I guess I didn’t feel it was in my interest, which maybe I was right or maybe I was wrong. 0 3876 New York Garment Industry SC: I hope this question isn’t too much of a tangent, but when you go to New York, and you see racks of clothing being wheeled down the street in the garment industry, the garment center of New York City, well how does that fit into the whole picture? And I’m showing my ignorance of not knowing. 
 ; 
 ; LB: Well, in New York there are also a lot of contractors, and many times there’s the garment district, so if the contracting shop is close to the manufacturer or jobber that they got the work from, they’ll just load it on racks and push them down the street.
 ; 
 ; GE: Oh, so it’s just that.
 ; 
 ; LB: Yeah, so it’s just the convenience. 0 3931 Community Involvement/Memories of the Community SC: Could we talk a little bit about your work in the community and in, you know, just in the general community, wherever you have been involved? 
 ; 
 ; GE: Actually, before we get into that, what are your memories of the community? In other words, when you were a child, you can give us a little bit of insight, what was the Allentown community like, and what was the Allentown Jewish community like? Both institutionally, what you know, what institutions were here, where were they, how active were they, what was the size of the community, where did it live, you know things of that nature? 
 ; 
 ; LB: Well, I’ve always lived here, and I guess summing up, you could say I always loved my community. And, after Beverley and I were married, we both loved the community. And I was active in the community, as you know. I was active at Temple Beth El. I was President of the School Board for a couple years. I was on the Board of Temple Beth El. I was president of Temple Beth El from 1982-1987. I was president of the Endowment Foundation for about 10-11 years. It started in 1987-1988, whenever my term as president ended. And I was a Trustee at St. Luke’s Hospital for 10 years, from 1982-1991. 0 4457 Memories of the Jewish Community GE: And tell us about your memories of the Jewish community when you were, because you grew up here your whole life, as a child and teen versus a young adult, you know, versus a father in, you know, your 30s and 40s and now as a senior? You know, what have you seen? How has it changed? You know a little bit of that. 
 ; 
 ; LB: Well in terms of demographics, the Jewish community has moved in a Western direction like for instance, Temple Beth El used to be at 17th and Hamilton-
 ; 
 ; GE: And I guess when you were younger, it was even 6th or something?
 ; 
 ; LB: I was BarMitzvahed at 12th and Walnut.
 ; 
 ; GE: 12th and Walnut, is that where it started? 12th and Walnut?
 ; 
 ; LB: Yes, that’s where it started. Well, we were married at 19, so as a young person ; and we were dating since we were 16…15? Yeah, 15. 0 4763 Needle Trades in Allentown SC: Do you remember any of the names of in- the needle trades right in Allentown? Maybe that would be something to write down sometime. It would be really-
 ; 
 ; LB: You mean other-
 ; 
 ; SC: Other businesses, yeah. 
 ; 
 ; LB: Schneider Manufacturing. That’s Irwin Schneider. Allentown Manufacturing. That’s George Hirsch. 
 ; 
 ; GE: We have Leonard- Len Manufacturing? Is that what it was called?
 ; 
 ; LB: Leonard. Leonard Manufacturing. 0 4866 Urban Renewal Processes in Allentown SC: I have another tangential question that’s a little self-interested. Do you remember anything about the years when the Urban Renewal Processes were going around- on in Allentown, especially the Little Lehigh Renewal Project that was the most contentious in Allentown? Were you involved with the city or any- any portion of that at that time?
 ; 
 ; LB: No. I remember when they wanted to change Hamilton Street into the Hamilton Mall, and I felt, along with the merchants, that that was a poor direction to go in. The merchants I clearly remember were solidly against changing Hamilton Street to one way and making it narrow. And I think the time has proven that they were right. 0 4968 Giving to the Family GE: But you know, we may want to ask in here in terms of just a little bit, I thought it was actually wonderful what Beverley was saying in terms of what you were able to offer your family education-wise and your wife education-wise. And I think that gets into here.
 ; 
 ; SC: Yeah.
 ; 
 ; GE: And so do you want to just share that with us because it wasn’t on the last tape. 
 ; 
 ; LB: Well, Beverley certainly didn’t come to work in the factory every day. We were always involved in everything together. We’ve been partners in everything. The factory and the building-
 ; 
 ; GE: Did you say she did come to work?
 ; 
 ; LB: No, she didn’t.
 ; 
 ; GE: She did not, okay. 
 ; 
 ; LB: But, we did things together. 0 5141 What Has Made You Feel the Most Creative in Life? SC: And what has made you feel the most artistic or creative or given you a sense of completion in life the most?
 ; 
 ; LB: I guess I’ve always valued my extracurricular, if you will, community activities the most. When I started in the garment industry, I made a promise to myself that I was not going just to be involved in business and get lost. And I suppose the experience that I value that I enjoyed the most has been the presidency of Temple Beth El. 0 5218 Beverley Bloch's Family History BB: I’m Beverley Bloch. Beverley Berg Bloch. And my birthdate is August 13th, 1935.
 ; 
 ; SC: And would you then, let's go back in your family a little bit, and then we’ll put you into context with your family. Where- What do you know about your parents? Give me their names, and also where they and perhaps their parents came from as far back as you know. 
 ; 
 ; BB: My father was, may he rest in peace, Joseph Berg. The name actually was Bergada, and he was from Pricin, Hungary, a small community in Hungary. And my mother was, may she rest in peace, Mildred Kleinberg. She was born in this country in a very small coal town called Oliphant, Pennsylvania. 0 5536 Beverley's Education BB: In the coal region. By the time I was 14, and I was the only Jewish kid in my class, I realized that I wanted to meet other Jewish kids. I realized that I would never get a good education. The education in Oliphant, Pennsylvania, the boys went into the mines, the girls went into then sewing plants. There were little sewing plants also in Oliphant. So I said to my parents that I would like very much to get a better education so there was a bus, buses that would start higher up in the coal regions — Carbondale, Jessup — and they would do what they call go “down the line” into Scranton. So when I was fourteen, I went, I registered to a Scranton school, Scranton Central High School, and I would take the bus every morning, approximately probably around 7:00. 0 5658 Meeting Leonard BB: And I got on the bus, and I had a blind date with someone named Leonard Bloch. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Oh, my goodness.
 ; 
 ; BB: We met at the Jewish Community Center at 6th and Chew Street, and the rest is history. 
 ; 
 ; SC: Wow.
 ; 
 ; BB: We kept dating. 
 ; 
 ; SC: Long distance dating for a while?
 ; 
 ; BB: Yeah, our wedding songbook said, “Martz Bus Made Money on Bev & ; Her Honey.” And it was true. Martz Bus would carry me to Bethlehem, not to Allentown, and Lenny would meet me in Bethlehem, and we just continued dating. 0 5732 Beverley's Parents' Store SC: To go back to your parents when they started their store, and that was 1931?
 ; 
 ; BB: Probably around then.
 ; 
 ; SC: They started the store, that was a really brave time to start a business in 1931. I mean that was going down to rock bottom by ‘32 to use a cliché. 
 ; 
 ; GE: However, people still had to eat.
 ; 
 ; SC: People had to eat so it was a good, it was a good decision, but also a lot of people had to sign a book rather than give money.
 ; 
 ; BB: Everything my father sold at the store was on the books. 0 5793 Anti-Semitism in School? GE: So given that you were- It was such a small number of Jewish children, and you were saying it was an Orthodox community in a much, in the school, whatever — was it difficult? Were you tormented or in any way?
 ; 
 ; BB: There was a certain amount of anti-Semitism. Basically speaking, no, I was not tormented. I can’t speak for what the boys in the area may have felt. From a girl's point of view, I had many non-Jewish friends, mostly non-Jewish friends. If they would become angry at me, the first remark out of their mouth might be “You dirty Jew.” It might be. Because they were being raised themselves in an environment that was totally anti-Semitic. 0 5943 Beverley's Involvement in the Business SC: Yeah. So if we move forward to when you got married and also how you became involved in the business, even if you didn’t go into the office every day. So if you can talk about how you got in, how you became involved in the business, and how you were involved, even though you didn’t go into work every day?
 ; 
 ; BB: I, actually, having been raised by a mother who was not home, I was truly averse to leaving my children. I almost made a vow that I would not marry anyone who would demand my participation in the business. But of course, Lenny and I discussed everything that he did, he would come home and we would talk. When he would have a jobber come to Allentown, of course it was up to me to be sure to entertain the jobber. 0 6260 Beverley's Community Involvement SC: What have you done in the community? How have you been a part of the Jewish community but also the wider community? 
 ; 
 ; BB: All right, when I was twenty, I went back- excuse me, when my child was twenty, excuse me- when my daughter who went to college, once she was able to go to college, I felt free to pursue my own education, and I went to Cedar Crest. The reason I went back to college was when she was about eight or nine, I started working as a volunteer at the Crippled Childrens Society. And I felt a real sense of a vocation for me. I liked working with people ; I liked helping people. And having raised this child and not having the ability to have a social worker help us — in 1958, there was no such thing as a social worker in the hospitals to send you home with a child who was going to profoundly need tremendous care. And your other children, when they would be involved in what had happened to the family — there was no such thing. So I saw my bent in life, I would become a social worker. So, it took me ten years. In the interim, I was active with Hadassah ; I was on the board of Hadassah. I was on the Board of the Temple, and when Rance Block was president, I became the social secretary- I don’t know what they called it. 0 6505 Did the Jewish Community Change in Allentown? SC: Did you, in those years, how did Allentown and the Jewish community and also in the wider community change?
 ; 
 ; BB: Well, as Lenny mentioned, the demographics of the community changed tremendously. When we bought our first home on Marshall Street, it was the end of the city. That was the end of the city. And then, of course, we saw the city move so much further west. And in terms of people who live here, it changed from a community of perhaps the entrepreneurs to professional men, mostly, as Lenny mentioned, medical. And so we saw that. 0 6782 Beverley Bloch's Perspective on Younger Generation Community Involvement SC: And is this the next generation or are these- Are the people that are involved now the people that have come in from other areas? Have you lost people that are, perhaps your children or your friends’ children, to go work in other places and live other places?
 ; 
 ; BB: Well, our children do not, unfortunately, live [here]. Our oldest son lives in Ann Arbor, Michigan, with his wife. I don’t think he’s- he does belong to a Chabad, but interestingly enough, he is married to a Baptist. 
 ; 
 ; SC: It’s the new generation.
 ; 
 ; BB: A new generation, yes. 0 6951 What Do You Value Most in Life? SC: So, what do you value in life most?
 ; 
 ; BB: My family. My family, my culture, my Judaism, very much my Judaism. The years when we were raising our daughter, without my faith, I don’t think I would have gotten through easily. And Israel. We value Israel, we worry about Israel, and we worry, I think, about Judaism in general, and, you know, where is- where is our country going, in general. 0 7108 What Makes You Feel the Most Creative? SC: What makes you feel the most creative?
 ; 
 ; BB: Creative? That’s a very difficult question. Creative. I like to make mandel bread for my family, that’s my specialty, making mandel bread. 
 ; 
 ; GE: That’s like a- like biscotti?
 ; 
 ; BB: Biscotti, it’s a Jewish biscotti, and whenever I have to take something to a friend-
 ; 
 ; GE: I’ll have to give you a call to get the recipe. 
 ; 
 ; BB: Mine is a basic simple recipe, and everybody seems to love it. So that makes me feel very good to be able to do something like that. Creativity, I am not a musician of any sort. My chanting, my chanting makes me feel very creative.
 ; 
 ; SC: Yes, metaphoric sense of creativity. 0 MovingImage Leonard Bloch talks about his father’s reluctant start in the needle-trade business. A few years after Lenny’s father started the business, Lenny’s mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer. As a result, rather than go to college, Lenny joined the business after he graduated from high school and quickly discovered he both enjoyed and had an affinity for managing the business.
 ; 
 ; Beverly Bloch talks about the challenge of growing up in Oliphant, PA in a home where her mom worked long hours in their “mom and pop” grocery store. Growing up without her own mother at home, Beverly was determined to be a stay-at-home mother to her children.
 ; Interview with Leonard Bloch, July 25, 2011 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today- LEONARD BLOCH: Is it all right if Beverley joins us? GAIL EISENBERG: Please. SC: Today is July 25, 2011, an interview- attending is Gail Eisenberg and Susan Clemens-Bruder. Hi. First of all, I would like to put you into context. And so if you could give your full name and your birth date? LB: Leonard Bloch, January 29, 1935. SC: Where were you born, and where did you live in your early life? LB: I was born in Wilmington, DE. Lived there at the most two years, I'm not sure the exact [time], and then my parents moved back to Allentown and I've lived here ever since. SC: And also, what is your family background? What- what- Where did your parents come from and what kind of education did they have? LB: My parents were both born in the United States, my mother in Coplay and lived in Allentown, and my dad is from Wilkes-Barre, PA. Both high school graduates. GE: How about their parents? LB: My father's family is from Germany, and I believe my mother's family is from Germany, as well. GE: And- And they were first generation? In other words, your parents- Do you know anything about when your parents, actually your grandparents came to America? Or what was the situation? LB: I don't know the dates. GE: Where did they settle? Did they live in which communities? LB: My dad's family settled in Wilkes Barre and always lived in Wilkes Barre. And my mom's family in the Lehigh Valley, as I said, started out in Coplay, which is just about five miles outside of Allentown and then to Allentown. GE: What kinds of careers or business or education did your- well I think you said that your parents were high school graduates. LB: Yes. GE: But what kinds of enterprise or business or jobs did they have? LB: My mother did not work, she was a housewife. Although prior to getting married, she was actually a coat buyer for Dobnoffs Store. SC: For the future, can you explain what Dobnoffs was? LB: Dobnoffs was a women's fine clothing store. SC: And where was it located? LB: In Allentown on Hamilton Street, I think between 6th & ; 7th. SC: And as far as your parents were concerned, did they actually come - did they come to Allentown at a specific time? LB: No. Well, my mother always- SC: She always lived in Coplay, but did they come to Allentown at a specific time and locate in Allentown proper, somewhere in Allentown? LB: I don't know what that date might have been. As I said, they initially settled right outside of Allentown and then moved into the city. GE: What did her parents do for a living? Your mother's parents. LB: Hm. Not really sure. I think they had a small dry goods store. My mother's father passed away quite young. I'm not sure just what age. And her mother lived close to 80. GE: What did your father do for a living? LB: My father worked for Sears Roebuck. He was the manager of the furniture department with Sears Roebuck. Sears was located on 7th Street at that time between Linden and Turner, and then they decided to build a new store which was located on 7th Street between Tilghman and Allen. During that period of time, they transferred my father to their Wilmington, DE store for about a two or three year period, and after that, he came back to Allentown, and he started in the garment business in approximately 1944-1945. GE: So he left Sears Roebuck? LB: Yes. He started out in two apartments at 716 and 718 Linden Street. They were two buildings that had three apartments in each building, and he converted the first-floor apartments, by knocking out walls, into a small garment factory. And... GE: So this was during the war, right? LB: Yes, it was just before the end of the war. GE: Right, right. --and what type of apparel? Was he a contractor? LB: It was a contracting shop, yes. And he made polo shirts. SC: And was- The factory was in Allentown? LB: Yes. SC: Did he have any other factories? LB: No. SC: Just the one in Allentown? LB: Yes. SC: So -- and we'll come back to all that -- but tell me a little bit more about you, as far as what was your educational background and how did you become involved in a business, and where did you work, actually, all your life? Did you have little jobs when you were young and then move into the garment industry? LB: How young? SC: As young as you can be. Paperboy? LB: No, I was never a paperboy. During the war, I used to, on the weekend, go around with my wagon and collect. At that time there was always a drive for some scrap metal, old rubber tires, and drippings from fats was used for munitions, and I would collect that and then sell it. Gas stations had places where you could buy that. I guess I was meant for the garment industry because we lived at 630 N. 23rd Street, had a nice front porch, and I invited all my friends on the porch, and I had little looms, and they made potholders. SC: That's great. GE: And you sold the potholders? LB: Yeah, I would put each potholder in a little sandwich bag, and I would go out around the neighborhood. GE: I remember making those potholders at camp. LB: Yeah it was a looping- GE: I know exactly what you're saying. SC: Any other jobs after that before you were an adult and got into a full-time business? LB: Well, when I started, when I was around 15, my mother started teaching me how to do bookkeeping. Payroll and things. My mother died young. She died when she was 47 -- breast cancer. GE: Is that why she taught you? Was she already sick? LB: No, she wasn't, she wasn't. I recall her having small ailments, but I think she wanted some help with it. She actually was very instrumental in encouraging my dad to go into the garment business. My dad was a furniture man, and... GE: So she was a visionary? LB: He really didn't know the garment business. In fact a funny aside -- the reason they were looking for a business, one of the motivating reasons, was because it was around that time in 1944 when Sears Roebuck was considering building another new building which they built out in the Lehigh Valley Mall. At first it was the one across the street from the Lehigh Valley Mall, the Whitehall Mall actually, and they were going to transfer my parents someplace else once again and they- my mother and my dad decided they wanted to stay in the same city. My brother and I, my brother's name is Stanley, Stanley passed away actually just in October of 2010. GE: Was Stanley older then you or younger than you? LB: No, younger. Stanley was 68 when he passed away. So they were going to go into some business. And their first thought was a luncheonette. Well first, actually their first thought they were thinking of the potato chip business, manufacturing potato chips. GE: Her, her- Interesting, her husband's family is Charles Chips. LB: Oh, really. GE: Yeah, her ex-husband's. SC: So they were thinking about that. And that was a perfect time to do it if you could get the oil. LB: They looked into the potato chip business, and they were all set to do that, and then they discovered that you don't get a pound of potato chips from a pound of potatoes when the water comes out it's a big difference, so it wasn't quite the gold mine that it appeared to be at first. So they rented one of these small apartments, and they were going to put a luncheonette there. And it was right around the corner from the Sears Roebuck store. Actually, the new store that they were going to build at that time was at 7th & ; Allen Street. I got ahead of the story a little bit. So they figured my dad's coworkers would walk around the corner and have lunch at the luncheonette. So they rented this apartment to be a luncheonette, and they had actually ordered luncheonette equipment already. Then before it came in before everything was delivered, they started thinking about the contracting business because there were a lot of sewing contracting shops in the area, and they changed their minds. They canceled the soda fountain equipment and luncheonette equipment and got sewing machines instead. So it was kind of a circuitous way to get into the clothing business. In any event, I graduated high school in June of 1952, and I had been planning to go to college, but along about July of 1952, my dad came to me and told me that my mother had breast cancer. And he wanted to spend some time with her, and they would have to go to doctors visits and so on and so forth, so could I go down to the factory and just take care of things, and I knew nothing about it except the bookkeeping, and going in after school, so I knew what a polo shirt looked like. So, of course, I said fine, and all of a sudden overnight, I was the boss of about twelve, thirteen, fourteen people. SC: So- and so you stayed there, and you didn't end up going to college? LB: No I didn't. SC: You went into the business. LB: Yeah, I liked it. My dad really didn't like it. My mom passed away in August of '53, and he continued to need me, and I just stayed. And I can't say, you know, I really always liked it. SC: You didn't have any- Did you have to go into the service at all in those years? LB: No, somehow I missed the service. Beverly and I were married in 1954 in November and missed the draft. Which we weren't unhappy about. SC: Can you talk a little bit now about the business? What were the operations, what- how- how did you set it up, or your father set it up and you continue it? LB: Well, as I said, my dad was not really a garment man, so he made polo shirts, and he really wasn't interested in making other types of garments. The polo shirt market was not one that I saw a future in even in the early 1950s. At that time, rather than things being manufactured in other countries, there was a migration to the South. There was a lot of clothing being made in the South. So I started looking at other types of clothing to make, and my dad always told me that if you go to work every day and you're there in the morning, whatever you do, if you make a mistake or whatever you do, we'll work it out, don't worry about it. Just be on time and we won't worry about mistakes, and he was always true to that. I did some crazy things. Most of them worked out. So one of the first different kinds of garments that I made that was really significantly different in 1955 I started making bouffant petticoats, which is a far cry-- GE: Now tell me what they are? LB: Bouffant petticoats when you have a billowy... GE: Is that when you would have a big formal gown? Oh. LB: No actually. SC: Like a big skirt in the 50s? GE: Oh, they wore these petticoats underneath it. SC: Yeah, yeah. LB: Women wore- this was a big thing. Just an everyday dress, there was a couple and women would wear more than one bouffant to make it very, very billowy. Well to make a dozen polo shirts at that time the minimum wage was with- for sewing machine operators was I think around $.60 an hour, something like that, and we were a union shop -- International Ladies Garment Workers Union. And to make a dozen polo shirts was maybe $.85 just supplying the thread and just make a dozen polo shirts, and if it was open shoulders it was maybe $1.00 a dozen. Everything was in units of twelve or a dozen, and there was just not enough business in that market. So Bouffant petticoats, first Bouffant petticoat I made, priced- we got $3.25 per dozen for making. And it was totally different but somehow I could see there was a future in it. It really wasn't that many more operations. They were like day and night as far as being different, but... For instance, what made them billowy so that they would hold the skirt out was the starch they put into the material but when you go to sew this each ruffle they were made in tiers and as it got longer each strip that you put on was larger than the prior piece and so you had to ruffle it in and you did that by using a shearing blade. Well, as that blade hit the fabric, it would kick out the starch, so that was very abrasive. It was so abrasive that it changed tops for the sewing machine after two or three months because it wore the table down. So you can imagine what it did to women's hands. To protect their hands, I bought calfskin gloves, and that would protect their hands. And they would have to change them daily because they would wear through. They could get starch in their eyes, so I bought plastic goggles, and it looked like a space- a spacesuit. Canvas aprons so it didn't damage their clothing. But with all these work aids, it worked out. Then I devised a system that once a girl ran a ruffle on, there was just a utility person who would take it from them and fold it in half and put it back in their work bin, so it was ready for the next ruffle after they finished putting all the first on. And that kept them sewing more often. GE: Is this -- I'm just curious -- the product I do remember as a little girl something called crinoline? LB: That's it, it was, yes. Crinoline. GE: I'm just wondering, so what your saying is, compared to the polo shirts, there is much more value added, that you were able to get a lot -- you know, given your raw material and given the selling price -- there was a much higher margin, right? LB: Yeah. GE: But obviously it also had a lot more obstacles, this was a more difficult- LB: Yes, for instance, packaging each crinoline, each bouffant had to be rolled up and put a rubber band around it so it wouldn't unroll and then pack either 3 in a box or 6 in a box depending on how billowy or what the style was. And this was a cumbersome job to try to roll this thing up and then try and put a rubber band on it. So I was, one day I was trying to figure out a way -- there has to be an easier way to do this then to struggle with it, because it really was a struggle if you can imagine it. The minimum sweep, sweep on the bottom, was maybe 3 yards that's 100 inches wiry and stiff. So I got an idea and went to a toy store and I bought sand buckets. I cut the bottom out with a can opener. Mounted it on a piece of 1 x 3 wood and mounted that on a table now the packing girl only had to grab it by the top, put it in the large opening at the top, and rubber bands were slid onto the can as it came to the end it just snapped. So the production went from maybe taking 5 minutes to roll up one to be able to do it in 5-6 seconds. GE: Wow! SC: That's what American business was made of. Ingenuity. GE: Honestly, it sounds like you were doing a lot of industrial engineering. LB: Yeah. GE: Did you have anybody else kind of helping you come up with these ideas? LB: No. GE: Your shop was basically you, and then was it about just like 15 sounds like 15 operators? LB: Yes. My dad started hiring more people. Then in 1956--actually maybe '55, I was looking for a larger place, new quarters. And let's see -- Craig was born in '55. We moved into our new quarters in 1956. The new quarters happened to be the two floors above the Lyric Theatre on 6th Street. Now it's- sure, you know, Symphony Hall they call it now. In those days, it was a burlesque house called Lyric Theatre. GE: Oh, wow. SC: There were stories from there. LB: There was no elevator in the building. I had the two floors above the main floor, and those two floors were equivalent. The sewing was on the top floor, which was the third floor and finishing was on the second floor, but because it was over a theatre with high ceilings, it was actually equivalent to a third floor and fourth floor in terms of getting to it. So we were able to put a conveyor on the front stairway to carry the freight in and to carry freight out as well. The Bouffants were, as I said, maybe six in a box, the particular style that I am thinking of, and we would ship them out every day -- maybe some days 200 dozen, that's 400 boxes. You could have someone all day long carrying them down the steps and unwieldy. So the building was right on the corner of the alley. So what I actually did was make a chute from the fire escape because that building had an outdoor fire escape. So I had an aluminum chute fashioned that folded up into 3-foot sections, so we slid them down. So that was another big labor-saving situation that converted something that could have taken a whole day to 400 boxes shooting down in 45 minutes. GE: Wow. Got a lot of labor and time-saving ideas. LB: Yes. GE: Now, at this time, were you still doing polos and bouffant or just the bouffants? LB: There were some polos, yes, but not too many because it was bouffants. Bouffants didn't last forever, though. Bouffants didn't last forever though. SC: No, I was going to ask, what happened to the '60s! GE: But while you were doing this, were there many other bouffant manufacturers in the area, or were you primarily the only one? LB: There were a few others around, but... they had a lot of trouble. GE: They didn't have some of these innovative ideas. LB: If you can just imagine a seamstress getting starch in her eyes is- is a significant thing. The goggles that I got prevented a lot of it, but I also had an arrangement with a local physician where- when they got impacted, I would have them taken up to the doctor's office, they would clean out their eyes, and it had just gone in so it would just be in the corners. It was fine. SC: Did you ever have a problem with other industrial spies coming in to see all your good practices? LB: No. SC: Because it was a small enough operation? LB: Yeah, well now I was up to maybe 50 people operating. And we'll get to it later, I moved -- my dad passed away in 1967, and in 1971 I moved to South Carlisle Street. Beverley and I bought two of those buildings, it was the old Quaker Shoe buildings, and there I was using about- I bought 75,000 feet and I only used maybe 25,000. The rest was leased out to other things. So I sort of got back into the real estate business. GE: Now, when was this? LB: That was in 1971. And I liked the real estate business, so we started buying apartments, and then I started building apartments. So I was really in the Garden Apartment business. GE: Were you still in the manufacturing- still in the garment business? LB: Oh, yea. SC: The Garden Apartment--this building? These buildings? LB: No, no. SC: So I have a couple of questions. First of all, in the '60s, what happened with the bouffant business and was polo generic polo shirts, or was it for Polo? LB: T-shirt -- no, it was not for Polo. SC: So the idea of generic polo, because Polo then had the name. LB: Today, polo shirts are called t-shirts, and it's one of the biggest items, but it's very difficult to find a store that carries American made t-shirts. They are all made off-shore. And that was something that was actually- you could forecast was going to happen. Following WWII, the world was flat, and they needed industry, and there is no more exportable industry, at least as I read the tea leaves, then the garment industry. During those days you could buy a sewing machine, table, and motor for under $1,000 and put a person to work. So whether it be Haiti or Japan at that time or wherever it might be, it was a very exportable industry, and t-tops or polo shirts were a good place to start. So following bouffants, we started making ladies sportswear and children's, as well. Two-piece sets. Knit polo shirt tops with slacks, popular-priced though, and then we went into ladies as well -- but also popular priced. One of the key features of a popular-priced slack, for instance, was an elastic top rather than a tailored top with button closure. And then eventually at the high point between the day shift and the night shift, we had close to 200 people working. SC: When- In these years, when you were doing this, who did you contract with? What contactors and where- what manufactures? LB: Manufacturers. SC: And where were they? LB: Mostly from New York and mostly unbranded. There's- We did a little work for Liz Claiborne, barely enough to mention. We did some for some national brands, Norma Kamali, but very little. The majority of the work was unbranded manufacturers, and these people sold to the volume users like Kmart, JCPenney, Sears. SC: This is tape 2. Today is July 25th, and this is an interview with Leonard Bloch. I didn't say that before. So, you were just going to say you gave out-- LB: I gave out 25-year gold watches, and I must have given out -- I have a plaque on my wall, I still have a little office downtown -- but I gave out close to forty, twenty-five year watches. When I finally, when I closed the plant down in 1990 we were down to about- between 45 and 50 employees left, and I really hung in longer than I should have economically, but a lot of people there that I knew forever and of those 45 to 50 people, somewhere between 25 and 30 of them were there in excess of 25 or 30 years. In many cases, when their daughters would grow up, they would have their daughters come in or even their sons on occasion would work. And we went- I used to take work in, I always wanted to keep the plant busy, and I felt that it was better to take something in that on paper figured out to be break even or even lose a little than to lay off. So actually for years when people worked for me they knew they had a job. We never ran into any unemployment problem whatsoever until the late '80s when I had to lay people off. There was- I took in anything just to keep busy. And it worked out advantageously even when it figured to be a loser. It wasn't all that bad because you're still- your rent costs the same whether you're working or you're not working. GE: Right. LB: And I still talk to a lot of people that worked for us. SC: Did we ask you the name of your company? LB: No. SC: I didn't think we did. LB: It was Leonard Manufacturing. Somehow I guess my parents thought I would be involved in it. SC: It was ordained. GE: Who did-? LB: I should also mention that my brother Stanley, following high school, came to the factory to work for a short period of time, but he never really liked it. I very much felt that he should go to school. He felt that since I didn't, he shouldn't have to, and that was a bone of contention. But in any event, he was in the automobile business, used cars, and never really liked the factory. GE: Did you- did you do your own selling- I don't know if it would be selling but who was really getting the contracts? LB: Me. GE: Okay. So you were really the salesman with the factory, with the manufacturers rather, and you were also the operations person. LB: Right. GE: Wow. SC: A lot of work. LB: I wish there were cell phones in those days, 'cause I remember well driving to New York and en route to New York, stopping at a phone booth maybe two-three times. Or if we went on vacation or just a day trip, stopping and using the phone booth to call. "What's happening? I have certain things scheduled to be shipped that day." SC: When the business started, did your father embrace the union right away, and was this something that you were committed to, to having the union in your operations? LB: My dad did embrace the union very early on, and I was committed to it, absolutely. GE: What was your father's first name? LB: He was known as Jay Sydney. His name was Joseph Sydney, but everyone called him Sydney. He went by the name Sydney. SC: So, as far as him starting with the union, was he actually large enough to have to commit to the union in those early years? LB: Probably not, but he did. SC: So do you have any anecdotes about or stories that you remember about your years in the business? Anything that just strikes you -- funny, sad, interesting? LB: I made mention a few moments ago about sliding the cartons down the outdoor fire escape. Well, the first time that I did that, it was for a local company called Movie Star. Actually, it was a New York company, but they had a plant in Allentown, a shipping point in Allentown. And before I had the chute made, we actually just went out the fire escape door and dropped the boxes down one at a time. Well, the first time I did this, the truck driver thought we were crazy. He came running upstairs to use the telephone and called his boss, a man named Charlie Halperin [?]. And Charlie heard this, "He's throwing your bouffants out the window!" He jumped in his car, this was in 1956 or maybe 1957, somewhere in there. Came running over with every intent of murdering me and just coincidentally Beverley and I had dinner with him last night. We became friends, best friends ever since. He immediately saw, like in geometry, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. But he liked it better when we put the chute there, and his bouffants weren't flying. GE: Now, how was your- Was your father very- Was there any tension in terms of your father letting such a young person kind of take the lead on the business, or did that transition happen easily because he wasn't really enjoying the business anyway? LB: Yeah, it happened pretty easily. GE: And then he was really just appreciative of it. LB: Yeah, if people- if any of the workers tried to go around me, which happened- GE: Especially in the early years, I imagine, when you were younger. LB: There's always a floor lady in the plant who directs the girls, I would direct the floor person. So there was little- but that was quickly-- GE: Abated. SC: What skills did you have? How did you divide the skills, for instance, there is the floor person, floor lady, and were all the workers women? LB: No, I had -- well, I had a cutting department, and the cutters were, the cutter was always a man. The shipper, the shipping clerk. In those days, you wouldn't think of a female shipping clerk. So- and I had a mechanic, had a very good mechanic was one of the keys to being successful with some of these different things because a mechanic not only fixed machines and keep them running and sewing machines can constantly break, and if you skip a stitch, it's a second, it has to be repaired ; but he could make attachments. Like often we made blouses and buffonces. The bottom row of the bouffant I told you was a minimum 3-yard sweep, and they got up to actually- there was one time that we had one bouffant that had a 100-yard sweep on the bottom. 100 yards. And 50 yards was commonplace. Well the bottom tier had to be bound or hemmed and we did this automatically at stop motion so that if the material would run out, or the thread would run out or if anything happened the machine would stop, and there were folders that would guide all these different things in at the same time. So I was fortunate to have a good mechanic that could make all these different attachments. SC: And did he develop them himself, or did he learn from other, you know, from directions? LB: No, he was just innately good. I could show him what I wanted to do... GE: And he could figure out how to- LB: And he could take a-- We had a certain kind of metal, a soft, malleable metal and he would shape it and solder it and do it. SC: In the 19th century, they called that a mechanical genius. It sounds like he was. LB: When these automatic machines, one girl could run six machines at one time, because if something went wrong, it stopped. SC: So your technology increased from the '50s to the '90s, the sophistication? LB: Well that was just in the Bouffants. SC: Just in the Bouffants, yeah. LB: In the blouse industry, there wasn't automatic. There were plenty of attachments and things to do, and I always looked for niche garments, something that would be difficult for someone to make. If I could make something that had some kind of difficult twist to it, there wouldn't be competition for maybe a six-month period or something like that. And that was enough time to pay for the investment, and then whatever happened would happen. SC: So, the sewers--so there was the shipping department, there was the mechanic and- LB: The cutting department. SC: The cutting department, which is- is really an amazing skill. And then from there were the workers actually divided up into specific skills or did somebody make a whole blouse or-? LB: Nobody made a whole anything. It was all- Like there were sleevers. First thing on a shirt, you would close the shoulders. And then sometimes, like in a blouse, maybe the collars would be in a separate little bundle with a bundle number on it so that bundle #1 went with collars #1 and someone could be working on the collars while the shoulders were being closed, for instance ; and then same thing with collar setters, sleeve setters and hemmers. GE: So, in terms of let's say the labor force that you had, you had men -- you had somebody as a mechanic, a cutter, a shipper -- and were- and women were, of course, the sewing operators. And were there other types of jobs? Oh, pressers. LB: Finishing. GE: Yeah, pressers okay, and that would also be women. Correct? LB: Correct. But I had an automatic pressing system for our type of clothing, did an adequate job. If you get into more expensive blouses they have to be hand-pressed, and certain things did need hand pressing but I had a steam tunnel so when clothing was shipped out on hangers, which was the case 90% of the time, once they were trimmed, loose threads taken off and so on, they were put on a hanger and they went on a conveyor worm, and it took it through a steam tunnel. It would be steamed, blow through it and get all the wrinkles out, and it would continue to an automatic bagging machine, like your dry cleaning bags, and the same kind of rack except there were arms on it, and it grabs the polyethylene, pulls it down, seals it, cut it off. GE: Got it ready. LB: So that was a big thing if you can just visualize ladies standing, pressing as opposed to going through the tunnel. SC: And I think- you had said about the cutters. Were the cutters using a pattern and then hand cutting or was that mechanized too so that a form would be created in the machinery and then cut tons and tons of--? LB: First thing, something called a marker was created. First, you have to have a pattern. You didn't make the patterns. The manufacturers made their own patterns ; they knew what their design was going to be. In many cases, they made their own markers as well although we had the capacity to make markers, but I preferred that they make their own markers so that if they feel that there should be 5 yards to a dozen- if they make a marker and they find it is taking 5-1/4 yards, they knew upfront-- GE: How much fabric-- LB: So then the cloth was put on a spreading machine, and I had an automatic spreading machine for large orders where you could just put a bolt of cloth on it, and it would go back and forth by itself and stop if there was a flaw in the material so it could be cut out. But in any event, the cloth had to be spread out on- spreading on the table, and you could go up depending- blouse material was usually like 55-60" wide and it was called "open", usually woven fabric as opposed to t-tops were made out of knits, and the knit fabric was usually tubular. So if you put up 100, 100 plies of tubular, you really have 200 if your doing it open. So we would generally spread let's say 100 plies of tubular ply and might not compact quite as firmly open goods, so maybe you would only get 180, and then you put the marker on top of all these goods, and the knife is usually like 10" in height, although there are shorter ones, and they push it through following the line, and that's how you cut- cut out the different parts for the different garments. There were automatic cutting systems available too, but that didn't fit my type of- an automatic cutting system would be a good way like in a blue jean factory where you were just making millions of garments and everything is the same. SC: It gave you more flexibility in the business, it would seem -- that you could get in and out of one item.. GE: You have more niches. LB: Yeah, right. GE: Were there any other administrative people besides yourself? Or you were really the soul- LB: Yes. GE: The brains behind the whole operation and the selling. LB: Whatever. SC: Yeah. Wow. LB: The real estate business also became a significant part of my- SC: Was that unionized? LB: No. No. First I just bought, we just bought a couple of buildings, and then I actually built a few buildings. The largest one was in Allentown, 48 apartments. GE: Oh, where? Which? I mean, is it just- is it a complex? LB: Yeah. Garden Apartments, South Tioga Street. GE: Okay. I don't know--is that South Allentown? SC: That's South Allentown. LB: And I had some in Emmaus. You might know -- we owned at one point the Powder Mill Apartments back on Furnace Street. SC: Oh yeah. LB: I don't know if you are familiar with Emmaus. SC: Yes, I live outside of Emmaus. I have to visit them. GE: Now was this somewhat the '70s when the real estate is becoming a much larger part? LB: I started that right after we bought the Quaker Shoe buildings in 1972. GE: Okay. LB: So, between 1972 and maybe in 1993, we did real estate. SC: Was there a specific impetus for you to get into building your own after you bought in- bought some? LB: I really just liked it. SC: That's a good reason. GE: And I assume also at the same time the apparel was becoming a more difficult business, a less profitable, a more competitive business, going more overseas and things of that nature. LB: Well, not until the late '80s. GE: Oh, that happened more in the late '80s. Okay, okay. So in the '70s, when you were getting into this, you just saw this as a new adventure in a sense. LB: Right. GE: Just an expanding of your- LB: Didn't have enough to do. SC: Did you plan out the apartments, how they were going to be set up, sort of in the same way you did with your sewing business? LB: When I did that, I always worked with an architect. SC: But you had ideas about how you wanted them to be laid out? LB: Well, actually, I would always run it by an interior decorator first, make sure the furniture- there was enough wall space. Women always want a breakfront and just to make sure. Sometimes a wall just being a few inches too short is a big impediment to its being marketable. But believe it or not, one of the first things that women would look for, "Is there room for my breakfront?" BEVERLEY BLOCH: [inaudible]. LB: Everything washers and dryers. The Tioga Street property, I did put a washer and dryer in each apartment, but prior to that, we had laundry rooms, which was a lucrative business as well. SC: But that movement as you- it got more towards the present was people wanted their- LB: Sure, but there is still the laundry machine business, laundromats, is still a good business. GE: Interesting. LB: Not a bad business. There is a large one that opened up about two years ago on 8th Street between 9th and 10th. GE: On 8th Street where, between Tilghman? LB: No, on Linden Street. GE: Linden, okay. LB: Between 9th & ; 10th. SC: And that would be a good area to have one. LB: Well, the area for laundromats is where there's older homes and people would not have washers and dryers. If they have their own washers and dryers, they are not going to go to a laundromat. SC: New populations. LB: But there are a lot of people who still don't have washers and dryers. GE: Any of your children- Did any of your children get involved either in the real estate part or in the garment, in the textile? LB: No, not really. Our oldest son, Craig, is a pediatrician. Our daughter sold advertising space for a Washington newspaper, and now she is a special education teacher for reading. SC: What's her name? LB: Carol. And our youngest son, Wayne, is an attorney, and he was a partner in Philadelphia, Klehr Harrison. And he gave- he left that firm about twelve years ago and started his own hedge fund, he's in the investment business now. GE: Oh, okay. LB: And as far as the sewing business, they could have been interested in it, particularly our older son, but I could see at that point without a doubt that the future for the clothing manufacturing business was not bright and rosy. GE: Right. LB: And he was so good in the sciences. GE: Right. He is lucky you had that foresight. LB: And so I said I think you should go to school for the sciences. SC: Where did he go to school? LB: Ah, Craig went to Tufts undergrad, Carol went to the University of Maryland, and Wayne went to the University of Michigan. GE: All wonderful schools, right. SC: This is an American story, this is a dream story. BB: [Inaudible]. GE: Well, you know what, Beverley, we'll interview you. No, no, no because- because- right. No, no, absolutely. SC: This is tape number 3, July 25th, 2011, an interview with Leonard Bloch. And can we talk about flex time? When you started flex time before probably anybody did and also how you allowed women to work with their families in mind in other ways? LB: I was able to handle flexible hours. If an employee had an elderly parent or children or whatever the need might be, they did not have to work 7 1/2 continuous hours. That was our...overtime was first over 7 1/2 and then over 7. But they could work, have an extra hour or two for lunch or just work mornings or just work afternoons or a combination of mornings and evenings or just evenings, and it worked out well for them, and it didn't hurt me. I could- I had their loyalty. If I needed a favor in return, it was no problem. SC: That's wonderful. And when did you- Did you start that right from the beginning? LB: Yeah. GE: In fact, why don't you share with us- You were saying that where the typical shift ended at 3:30, if you wanted to stay a little bit but if you had a job that required people to work later... LB: Oh, right. If I had an order that had to go out and wasn't finished, it just wasn't going to be done by quitting time, and I needed people to stay to finish it, the only reason someone would refuse generally speaking was if they just had a commitment or a responsibility that they just couldn't, but they could stay until 8, 9 o'clock in the evening on many occasions. SC: So do you have any other questions about the business that you can think of? GE: No, and then we will talk about a little bit when you were saying in terms of family, as well as your sense . . . how about your sense of the Allentown textile industry, or I shouldn't say the Allentown, I should say the Lehigh Valley -- because there were a lot of contractors, correct? LB: There were. There were several hundred in the Lehigh Valley at one time. GE: Right. Can you just tell us a little bit about that? Was there much collaboration among the contractors? Was it very competitive among the contractors? How did all- some of those things--? LB: It was a competitive market. It was competitive for help, seamstresses. It was competitive for getting the work, getting the contracts for- Speaking of contracts, it's not in the usual context of a contract. In my over 40 years in the business, I never had one written contract. It was always word of mouth. I would go to New York and some style we decided we were going to make, and it was just, the industry didn't lend itself to contracts. Like they could say, we are going to make this style for the next one month, or 24 months, they didn't know any more than I knew, so it was always just- And if someone would come in at some point and make it for less money, you might lose it if you couldn't meet the price. And in the New York market, the New York jobbers as they were called, the people I dealt with, some of the sharpest, shrewdest business people you would ever meet. GE: Now when you say the jobbers, they were therefor in between the manufacturer and a contractor? LB: No, the jobber and manufacturer would be synonymous. GE: Okay. But they were the ones who actually were selling them to the department stores or to whatever. LB: They sold the merchandise to the department stores. GE: Okay, and who you worked with was just the person in their firm who worked with whoever was going to make it for them? LB: Right. GE: What about, were you associated with the contractors association? Because we spoke with, we did meet with Arnold Delin. LB: Yes- No, I never joined. GE: Okay, just wondering. Okay, why? You didn't feel it was in your interest, or--? LB: Well, obviously, I guess I didn't feel it was in my interest, which maybe I was right or maybe I was wrong. GE: Right. LB: I always did my own negotiation with the union. I never had a strike, and I never gave in too easily. And I just felt, I guess-- GE: That it wasn't needed. Okay. LB: It wasn't, it wasn't in my interest. And I was one of the few plants that did not belong to the Association. But if you belong to the Association and the Association decided to go in a certain direction, you were obligated, I would be obligated to go in that direction as well. GE: And you wanted more, both autonomy and independence that way? LB: Yes. GE: Were there any directions that they went into that you did very differently? LB: No, they were very good for the members that they represented, and there were times I should've- when I thought maybe I should have joined, but I didn't. GE: Right. SC: I hope this question isn't too much of a tangent, but when you go to New York, and you see racks of clothing being wheeled down the street in the garment industry, the garment center of New York City, well how does that fit into the whole picture? And I'm showing my ignorance of not knowing. LB: Well, in New York there are also a lot of contractors, and many times there's the garment district, so if the contracting shop is close to the manufacturer or jobber that they got the work from, they'll just load it on racks and push them down the street. GE: Oh, so it's just that. LB: Yeah, so it's just the convenience. GE: Right, they don't have to worry about having trucks deliver it. SC: Especially in New York City. LB: Right. SC: Could we talk a little bit about your work in the community and in, you know, just in the general community, wherever you have been involved? GE: Actually, before we get into that, what are your memories of the community? In other words, when you were a child, you can give us a little bit of insight, what was the Allentown community like, and what was the Allentown Jewish community like? Both institutionally, what you know, what institutions were here, where were they, how active were they, what was the size of the community, where did it live, you know things of that nature? LB: Well, I've always lived here, and I guess summing up, you could say I always loved my community. And, after Beverley and I were married, we both loved the community. And I was active in the community, as you know. I was active at Temple Beth El. I was President of the School Board for a couple years. I was on the Board of Temple Beth El. I was president of Temple Beth El from 1982-1987. I was president of the Endowment Foundation for about 10-11 years. It started in 1987-1988, whenever my term as president ended. And I was a Trustee at St. Luke's Hospital for 10 years, from 1982-1991. GE: I'm sorry, that was St. Luke's? LB: St Luke's Hospital. Don Ritter, Congressman Don Ritter, appointed me to the Local Small Business Administration Advisory Board. I was on that for about three years, one term. What else did I do? GE: That's pretty good. SC: Yeah, that's a pretty long list. How about when you were in high school, were you involved in the community in any way? Or at school, in the activities at school? LB: Not big involvements . . . GE: Were you in the youth group? Were you in AZA? LB: I was in SAR. GE: SAR. Can you just tell us what SAR is? LB: Sigma Alpha Roe. GE: Okay, and is that a secular fraternity, or is that a Jewish one? LB: It's a Jewish fraternity. GE: Oh, okay yeah, I knew of AZA. LB: Yes, it's a cove.[?] GE: Okay. LB: But not affiliated with any umbrella group. GE: Okay. And did your family, were they members at Beth El? LB: Yes. GE: Okay. So your member- your leadership at Beth El, your leadership at the hospital, at the Small Business Advisory Group, did all of these activities, would you say this is starting in the '70s? Most of this leadership, the leadership roles? Or even earlier? LB: Oh yeah, there was a handicapped group at the Good Shepherd Home. GE: What is that called? LB: It was called Operation Overcome. They couldn't afford a lawyer, so they had me as chairman of their legal committee. GE: And this is, this is with just a high school? LB: Yes. This was in the days before- when curb cuts were just getting started. GE: Oh, the curb cut, yeah. LB: And I organized a roll on the mall since Bartholomew was the mayor at the time. GE: Gosh that's before my- SC: Was that in the early '80s? GE: I think earlier. SC: Earlier than that? LB: Earlier. It was in the, perhaps in the late- GE: Because Doddona was in the '70s when I came in the late 70s. LB: Pretty sure it was Chip. In any event, the mayor, whoever he was, said, rolling off a curb is such a small thing, why would you need a ramp? And it's going to be an impediment for able-bodied people when the sidewalk slopes down. I said I'll tell you what, do me a favor, any day it is convenient for you and one or two or three other City Council people, let's have a roll from 10th Street down to city hall. And after you've bounced up and down from the curbs, if you still tell me that it's nothing, I'll go away -- on a wheelchair. And so after that they endorsed curb cuts. And then the addition was being built for, at that time, Allentown High School. Now it's William Allen High School. On Linden Street, they were building a Library and Science addition, and they were not putting an elevator in into the building. So when I went to speak to the Chairman of the School Board, they said there is already an elevator in the main section, and there is going to be a way to get from that main section to the new section. And besides, there is going to be library and science rooms in the old section as well as in the new section. So my response to that was I think that went out a couple years ago with separate but equal. But as things worked out, we didn't make any progress on that. So my lawyer at the time was Clayton Hyman, I got him to file a lawsuit against the school district, which he did pro bono. And we got the state Department of Labor and Industry to file a brief on our behalf in support of it. And the end of the story is, they not only redesigned the building once they understood the problem -- they came and sat down and listened and they understood -- and they redesigned the building and put an elevator in the design. But the new Administration Building on 4th and Penn was already built and could no longer be brought into this lawsuit. It was from- with the American Disabilities Act, the basis, they retrofitted that building, but there was room on the outside to patch in an elevator, similar to what they did at the Lyric Theater. Now there is an elevator on the parking lot side. So we got an elevator in the Administration Building which during the negotiations I made mention that there are physically challenged people in the community, and we have more than our share because of the Good Shepherd Home. People are residents there, and they can do things, but a step prevents them from going into a building they are paying taxes for and being able to work there. And so, that was- GE: That's really something. That's really wonderful. And so again, just for me to get a little bit of a timeline, so all of these things were these things that you were involved in starting around the '70s, all of these different things, your leadership roles? LB: No, I guess- GE: Even earlier? LB: Yeah. GE: [19]60s, maybe? The '60s and on? LB: In the '60s, right, hon? GE: Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm saying that would be 50 years ago. I'm not exactly sure how old you are, 70-? LB: Seventy-six. GE: Seventy-six. So you think these were things, even leadership, you started getting involved even in your 20s or 30s or-? LB: Yeah. GE: And tell us about your memories of the Jewish community when you were, because you grew up here your whole life, as a child and teen versus a young adult, you know, versus a father in, you know, your 30s and 40s and now as a senior? You know, what have you seen? How has it changed? You know a little bit of that. LB: Well in terms of demographics, the Jewish community has moved in a Western direction like for instance, Temple Beth El used to be at 17th and Hamilton- GE: And I guess when you were younger, it was even 6th or something? LB: I was BarMitzvahed at 12th and Walnut. GE: 12th and Walnut, is that where it started? 12th and Walnut? LB: Yes, that's where it started. Well, we were married at 19, so as a young person ; and we were dating since we were 16--15? Yeah, 15. GE: Isn't that unbelievable? Wonderfully so. LB: Yeah. I was very active in Sigma Alpha Rho and the Jewish Community Center. I was not active in sports. GE: What- Where was the Jewish Community Center? LB: 6th and Chew. GE: Okay, and that was there until- when did it move to 27th and Tilghman? LB: 1958, yeah. SC: Okay. And is that when some people in the African American community started the Negro Cultural Center? Right around that time? LB: They bought the building. SC: Yeah. LB: Yeah, I'm not real aware of it. SC: And then, of course, it's the Health Department, the Conference of Churches, I guess now. GE: But it moved itself to 22nd and Tilghman really just to move with the community, I assume? LB: Right. Oh, and the new Beth El building was built, Rance Block and I supervised the construction with the Butz Company. We- GE: This one? The new building? The last- right. LB: Yeah. Rance and I met with the Butz Company on a weekly or every other week basis, or as needed. And the building came in on time. Started in January and moved into the following January. SC: Wow. And now you're neighbors? Now you're neighbors, you and Lee Butz? LB: Oh yeah. SC: So, did the community change in the next generation, in your children's generation in any way? GE: Did it get larger, smaller, less cohesive, more cohesive? LB: I think the Jewish community has certainly grown. From a business point of view, you don't have the individual business owners that there once were. Like for instance, in the garment industry at one time, it was a really significant- GE: A big presence. LB: Significant presence. The retail stores along Hamilton Street are no longer there, but the professional community has grown, particularly the medical community. And I think the growth for this area in the medical community is certainly going to continue. Right now, St Luke's has an affiliation with Temple University and the new medical school. St. Luke's has started constructing already ; they own a 500-acre tract at the intersection of Route 33 and 78. And they started building, there's going to be a General Electric, they are going to have one of only five in the country, showplace of their latest x-ray and scanners. GE: That will be wonderful for the community. SC: Do you remember any of the names of in- the needle trades right in Allentown? Maybe that would be something to write down sometime. It would be really- LB: You mean other- SC: Other businesses, yeah. LB: Schneider Manufacturing. That's Irwin Schneider. Allentown Manufacturing. That's George Hirsch. GE: We have Leonard- Len Manufacturing? Is that what it was called? LB: Leonard. Leonard Manufacturing. SC: But if you think of any, it would be really helpful if we- you know just to sort of look back maybe in the newspapers or anything. GE: Who all- You know who I have a feeling will be able to give me a lot of those names? LB: Arnold Delin. GE: Oh, Arnold Delin, yes. LB: He could take out- GE: Yes. LB: He could take out- GE: Yes. SC: Yes, yes. LB: He could take out this list. They'll all be there. SC: Yes, sorry, that's true. GE: But actually even, even Rance. I was surprised how much he knew the names because he gave me a whole list of people to contact. LB: Lot of clients. Yes. GE: But he said, you know I insured them all. And I thought that was interesting, you know, you don't necessarily think of that. Or at least I didn't initially think of that, so I thought that was interesting. SC: I have another tangential question that's a little self-interested. Do you remember anything about the years when the Urban Renewal Processes were going around- on in Allentown, especially the Little Lehigh Renewal Project that was the most contentious in Allentown? Were you involved with the city or any- any portion of that at that time? LB: No. I remember when they wanted to change Hamilton Street into the Hamilton Mall, and I felt, along with the merchants, that that was a poor direction to go in. The merchants I clearly remember were solidly against changing Hamilton Street to one way and making it narrow. And I think the time has proven that they were right. All around the country in those days, the cities were tearing down old elevated subways or railways, whatever it was, and we were making our own Hell coming down Hamilton Street. SC: So, some of the- You answered most of the questions before we could ask them. You honestly did, you followed through in such a logical fashion. We asked about the wider community, and I- GE: But you know, we may want to ask in here in terms of just a little bit, I thought it was actually wonderful what Beverley was saying in terms of what you were able to offer your family education-wise and your wife education-wise. And I think that gets into here. SC: Yeah. GE: And so do you want to just share that with us because it wasn't on the last tape. LB: Well, Beverley certainly didn't come to work in the factory every day. We were always involved in everything together. We've been partners in everything. The factory and the building- GE: Did you say she did come to work? LB: No, she didn't. GE: She did not, okay. LB: But, we did things together. GE: Right. And do you want to just share with us that eventually one of the, maybe, one of the things you were able to do, putting your children through college, letting your wife go to college that she never had that opportunity. If you just want to share, you and Beverley mentioned it briefly before, but we just don't have it on the tape. And so where your children ended up going to college, you were able to do without them taking out loans. LB: Yeah, well, we both certainly knew the value of education. And there was no question that our children were going to go to college and it was great that after our kids were in college, that Bev could go back to school and get her degree. GE: Right. And where did Bev go to school? LB: Cedar Crest. GE: Right. And also, do you want to just tell us where your children ended up going to school? You already told us, but for the tape. LB: Oh, I thought it was already on tape. GE: No, it wasn't. It was in between tapes. LB: My son Greg went to undergrad at Tufts University, and he went to medical school at Duke. Our daughter Carol went to the University of Maryland, and our son Wayne went to the University of Michigan and got his law degree at BU, Boston University. GE: Wonderful. And then we just wanted to ask a couple of final closing questions. SC: Right, but it's going to go off, so I'll just ask that in a second. So I- we have two very sort of amorphous questions, maybe, but what do you value most in life? LB: My family, my wife, obviously. SC: And what has made you feel the most artistic or creative or given you a sense of completion in life the most? LB: I guess I've always valued my extracurricular, if you will, community activities the most. When I started in the garment industry, I made a promise to myself that I was not going just to be involved in business and get lost. And I suppose the experience that I value that I enjoyed the most has been the presidency of Temple Beth El. It was a challenge in many different ways. And also the years I spent at, second, it would be the years I spent at St Luke's Hospital. SC: Thank you so much. LB: My pleasure. Interview with Beverley Bloch, July 25, 2011 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is July 25th, 2011, interview continuing with the Blochs. And would you state your full name and your birthdate? BEVERLEY BLOCH: I'm Beverley Bloch. Beverley Berg Bloch. And my birthdate is August 13th, 1935. SC: And would you then, let's go back in your family a little bit, and then we'll put you into context with your family. Where- What do you know about your parents? Give me their names, and also where they and perhaps their parents came from as far back as you know. BB: My father was, may he rest in peace, Joseph Berg. The name actually was Bergada, and he was from Pricin, Hungary, a small community in Hungary. And my mother was, may she rest in peace, Mildred Kleinberg. She was born in this country in a very small coal town called Oliphant, Pennsylvania. GAIL EISENBERG: Oh I've heard of Oliphant. Sorry, tell me again, what was your mother's name? BB: Mildred. SC: And that will be on the tape, too, but sometimes it's good to have it on the notes. Okay, do you know any more about their parents and grandparents? BB: Definitely. My mother was actually second generation, born in this country. Her mother was born in Oliphant, Pennsylvania. My mother's grandfather came with his cousins and probably brothers and sisters I did not know to Oliphant, and my great-great-grandfather built buildings. He had- he had a factory, I mean a foundry, and built buildings. Her mother- his mother- my mother's- GE: They "built buildings", did they build the bricks? BB: He built the bricks that made buildings. Excuse me. GE: Right. BB: Yes, that's exactly what he did. He made the bricks that build the buildings. So my grandmother, my mother's mother, was also born in Oliphant, Pennsylvania. When I was a child growing up, I had a kindergarten teacher, a private kindergarten teacher, Miss Flynn, who actually taught my grandmother and my mother in the Oliphant public schools. My mother's father had a grocery store. My dad was an immigrant boy whose family had come to Scranton, Pennsylvania. And he drove a cookie truck, a bakery truck. And my mother- GE: A delivery route. BB: A delivery route that went as far as Oliphant. And, excuse me. My mother and he fell in love. She would push putting his bakery products on the shelves of her father's store. They became engaged and opened their own little store on the main street of Oliphant before they actually were married. And then they opened the store. It was a mom and pop grocery store. In later years we lived over the store. SC: Was this in the '30s? BB: Yes, I was born 1935, and they were married for about four years. And we, my sister and I who was born two years and 9 months later, and we were actually raised with the store as the focal part of our existence. It was a Polish, Ukrainian, Irish community -- Welch, because the name Oliphant was taken from a Lord Oliphant, he named it for his Welch compatriots. We had a babysitter, a nanny, you would say today, and she wasn't really, the Polish girls would watch us while my mom and dad worked in the store until late in the evening. And that's the way we grew up. Do you want to know more about my background? GE: Your mom's family, they were in Oliphant, where were they from in Europe? BB: Poland. GE: From Poland. Did you know where in Poland? BB: No, I have no idea because my mother was already- because she was third generation never spoke about Poland. I did try to find my father's village when we were in Hungary. And it had moved from Hungary into the Ukraine and was put there by the Russians when they occupied Eastern Europe. GE: So today it's really part of the Ukraine? BB: Part of Ukraine, Pricin, P-R-I-C-I-N? P-R-I-C-I-N, Pricin. SC: And how many names do you know going back? Do you know any other names in your family? BB: No, I only know that I had, well, an uncle, who was in radio and television locally in Wilkes-Barre and Scranton. He changed the name to Berg, and then the rest of the family followed suit. SC: What was his first name? BB: Hal. Hal Berg. He had a wonderful children's show called The Land of Hatchy Milatchy. But he died tragically at the age of 54, so he did not fulfill a lot of- SC: Yeah, so your young life was up in- BB: Oliphant. SC: In the coal regions? BB: In the coal region. By the time I was 14, and I was the only Jewish kid in my class, I realized that I wanted to meet other Jewish kids. I realized that I would never get a good education. The education in Oliphant, Pennsylvania, the boys went into the mines, the girls went into then sewing plants. There were little sewing plants also in Oliphant. So I said to my parents that I would like very much to get a better education so there was a bus, buses that would start higher up in the coal regions -- Carbondale, Jessup -- and they would do what they call go "down the line" into Scranton. So when I was fourteen, I went, I registered to a Scranton school, Scranton Central High School, and I would take the bus every morning, approximately probably around 7:00. GE: Was that a problem? In other words, was that something that someone was just able to do? BB: No, not necessarily. My grandmother luckily, my father's mother, the family that migrated from New York when they came off the boats from Europe and went to Scranton. Most of them stayed in Scranton. My father was the only one that moved to Oliphant. So I was able to give my grandmother's address. I would not have been allowed to go to a school out of the district. GE: Right, I was wondering. BB: Fortunately, I think the administration looked the other way. I was a decent student, and they didn't question my graduating year. And in the course of time, the second year of school, when I had befriended a young woman who, also her father, had moved their family to Scranton. She moved to Allentown, so at fifteen she called me -- why she would remembered someone she had met for only one year -- called me and said, "I would like you to come to visit, you were so nice when I lived in Scranton." And I got on the bus, and I had a blind date with someone named Leonard Bloch. GE: Oh, my goodness. BB: We met at the Jewish Community Center at 6th and Chew Street, and the rest is history. SC: Wow. BB: We kept dating. SC: Long distance dating for a while? BB: Yeah, our wedding songbook said, "Martz Bus Made Money on Bev & ; Her Honey." And it was true. Martz Bus would carry me to Bethlehem, not to Allentown, and Lenny would meet me in Bethlehem, and we just continued dating. And having had the responsibilities he had as a very young boy made him very mature, and after his mother passed away, it was even more so. He was very close to his mother, and he was very lonely for . . .you know, so we married at 19. GE: How old was he when his mother passed away? BB: Seventeen. Eighteen, actually. GE: So you already had met her? BB: Yes. I did get to meet my mother-in-law. GE: That's a blessing. BB: Yes, that's when she was starting to be sick. SC: To go back to your parents when they started their store, and that was 1931? BB: Probably around then. SC: They started the store, that was a really brave time to start a business in 1931. I mean that was going down to rock bottom by '32 to use a cliché. GE: However, people still had to eat. SC: People had to eat so it was a good, it was a good decision, but also a lot of people had to sign a book rather than give money. BB: Everything my father sold at the store was on the books. SC: Everything. BB: Everything. The miners, who were his main source of income, they lived from one paycheck to the next, so- And my mother worked very hard with my father in the store. My sister and I were like original latchkey kids. We always came home to an empty apartment. GE: So given that you were- It was such a small number of Jewish children, and you were saying it was an Orthodox community in a much, in the school, whatever -- was it difficult? Were you tormented or in any way? BB: There was a certain amount of anti-Semitism. Basically speaking, no, I was not tormented. I can't speak for what the boys in the area may have felt. From a girl's point of view, I had many non-Jewish friends, mostly non-Jewish friends. If they would become angry at me, the first remark out of their mouth might be "You dirty Jew." It might be. Because they were being raised themselves in an environment that was totally anti-Semitic. But as I said, we did have a little synagogue that serviced the area. When I said "area", it was like Jessup, Blakely, Dixie City, these were all small towns where mostly, the merchants were Jews, they have little stores, the dry goods stores, the pharmacy was a Jewish man in our community, the grocery store. These were Jews, so, yes, they came together in Oliphant. The beauty of my childhood was the very fact that because we could not afford a rabbi full time if they did, a Malamud, a teacher, if they did not educate the girls as well as the boys, they wouldn't have been able to have them. So I therefore after school almost every day went to our little Talmud Torah, which was a little building next to the synagogue, and I loved to pray. I loved to chant. Today in my adulthood, I do a service once a month in a nursing home ; I did it here in Allentown. I- I became very adept. I love to chant. So I do thank my parents very much for the very fact that the community was as it was. I got a Hebrew -- not a speaking-- a prayer Hebrew education. GE: Right. Interesting. SC: Did you want to add on to that question at all? Or should we move on? GE: No, no, I thought you did a great job. SC: Yeah. So if we move forward to when you got married and also how you became involved in the business, even if you didn't go into the office every day. So if you can talk about how you got in, how you became involved in the business, and how you were involved, even though you didn't go into work every day? BB: I, actually, having been raised by a mother who was not home, I was truly averse to leaving my children. I almost made a vow that I would not marry anyone who would demand my participation in the business. But of course, Lenny and I discussed everything that he did, he would come home and we would talk. When he would have a jobber come to Allentown, of course it was up to me to be sure to entertain the jobber. I remember once we actually had a jobber with his wife who came to Allentown, and New Yorkers, I don't know if this is typical, but she said, "Do you have central air conditioning?" It happened to have been summer, and I said, "Yes," and I made a little offhanded joke, I said, "Yes, but the plumbing is outside." So I mean, that's the kind of thing we would do, and when we went into the construction of apartments, of course, I was also not physically involved but we would discuss everything. And at one point actually, I did help with the rentals for a time with one of the projects. But basically speaking, I was not physically involved in his business. SC: And as far as those years, do you have any memories, just anecdotes of the business, the things that just as you would talk, that you remember or jumped out at you? BB: Well, there was one really funny one. Every Christmas, Lenny would give, we would have a Christmas party, and we were not large enough or economically feasible enough to go and rent a hall, so we would have a party in the factory itself. Lenny would order cold cuts- my specialty was making Jell-O molds. And I remember taking -- I didn't have a car, I took a taxi with my Jell-o molds out to 6th street. And on the way, the molds started to melt. And this poor taxi driver, my mold melted all over his car, his cab. Well, that was one of the really highlights of my helping out with the Christmas party! I knew a lot of the girls that worked for him, and they would tell me different things about their home life, things like that. We were always invited every Christmas to his bookkeeper's home, for the most delicious kiffles that you ever want to taste. And that was another example of Lenny's flex time. She was a woman with small children, lived near the factory, Lenny took the bookkeeping books to her so that she did not have to leave her home. And that's how she worked for him, out of her home, and she appreciated that very much. GE: Right. BB: Other than that, just a sounding board, I tried to be a sounding board for whatever my husband had to talk about. SC: Do you have any thoughts about the business, as far as how Lenny managed it, and- and the way he treated his workers and you know, the years of how the business got along? BB: I admired and respected my husband tremendously. To be a person without a college education, which most of his friends, when we were twenty and had a child, his friends came to visit, and they were second-year college students. I mean, they looked at us and thought... And then I admired him tremendously for another reason. Our daughter is disabled, she was born disabled. And he became not only my help-mate, but I could not have actually gotten through the years that we had with hospitals and physical therapy, and everything that goes with raising a disabled child without having this wonderful help-mate, strong, courageous, was at my side for everything. And into our adult years, I mean our elderly years where we both have had major physical problems, we have been there for each other. So I'm- and I am very proud of him, very proud of all the accomplishments that he's had, and with all of the obstacles that were put in his path. SC: What have you done in the community? How have you been a part of the Jewish community but also the wider community? BB: All right, when I was twenty, I went back- excuse me, when my child was twenty, excuse me- when my daughter who went to college, once she was able to go to college, I felt free to pursue my own education, and I went to Cedar Crest. The reason I went back to college was when she was about eight or nine, I started working as a volunteer at the Crippled Childrens Society. And I felt a real sense of a vocation for me. I liked working with people ; I liked helping people. And having raised this child and not having the ability to have a social worker help us -- in 1958, there was no such thing as a social worker in the hospitals to send you home with a child who was going to profoundly need tremendous care. And your other children, when they would be involved in what had happened to the family -- there was no such thing. So I saw my bent in life, I would become a social worker. So, it took me ten years. In the interim, I was active with Hadassah ; I was on the board of Hadassah. I was on the Board of the Temple, and when Rance Block was president, I became the social secretary- I don't know what they called it. GE: Probably recording secretary for the Board? BB: No, I worked with programming. Programming. I don't know if it was the vice presidency. GE: Activities? BB: Activities Vice-President, yes. I was the Activities Vice-President under Rance. GE: And that's a big job. BB: I was going to college, maybe thirty credits at a time. Something like that. It took me ten years to get my degree. SC: That's great. Have you worked as a social worker? BB: Unfortunately, no, not as a- I did not have a paid position. When I was ready to graduate, one year before my graduation, Lenny had seven bypasses, heart bypasses. He was 49 years old. I think he realized then that he would have to find a way to take life a little easier. And we had had an apartment in Florida that we used just as an interim place because my mom lived in Florida, and we wanted to be able to touch base easily. We- he said he'd like to start going to Florida, at least for a month. And when I went looking for a job, and I did go looking for a job, and I told them I would have to be taking off a month, they- it wasn't- so I have done, in Florida I- I worked as a volunteer for a group called Listen to Children: Palm Beach Mental Health, where I worked one-on-one with children who had emotional disturbances. I did that, I'm now a Vice-President of Education for my chapter of Hadassah in Florida. So I have found ways to- and I- I do a service once a month at a nursing home for the residents. SC: And you live in Florida for seven months of the year? BB: Seven months of the year now. We did not originally, of course, but we gradually started to go to Florida for longer times as our children got older. SC: You mentioned that there was some anti-Semitism in . . . when you were a child. Did you experience that once you came to Allentown? BB: No. None whatsoever. But then again, we were heavily involved in the Jewish community. But well through Lenny's activities and mine somewhat, we did interact a lot with non-Jews. And never did I feel any anti-Semitism. SC: Did you, in those years, how did Allentown and the Jewish community and also in the wider community change? BB: Well, as Lenny mentioned, the demographics of the community changed tremendously. When we bought our first home on Marshall Street, it was the end of the city. That was the end of the city. And then, of course, we saw the city move so much further west. And in terms of people who live here, it changed from a community of perhaps the entrepreneurs to professional men, mostly, as Lenny mentioned, medical. And so we saw that. As the years went on, our involvement with other Jews became greater, of course, when we were young marrieds, the small Jewish community then would have nothing to do with us because they knew our age and they weren't going to be friends with people who were 19 years of age since they were already in their mid-twenties. GE: Did you really find that? BB: Yes. But then as the years went on and we had children, right away, we became more integrated and neutralized the situation. Yes, yes. SC: Because your children and the other children and the other parents were all- BB: At the same age. SC: And so has the Jewish community changed over the years in other ways, any other ways? BB: I think Beth El, from- which really is the only community I can speak of, has become more vibrantly Jewish, which is really lovely to see. When we go to services now on a Shabbat morning, and we have- participation is just marvelous. In the early years, that when I was here with Rabbi Greenburg, let him rest in peace- in peace -- in fact he bar-mitzvahed my son as well as my husband -- it was a more formal Jewish experience. For example, Friday nights, Lenny and I would leave our children, rush to get out of the house after Sabbath dinner, so we could go to services. No one would do that today. You would bring your small children to services with you. Rabbi Greenburg, let him rest in peace, was of the old school, children could be a disturbance to the service, not an adding of beauty to the service. And I'm- I was sorry for that later on that my children did not get that kind of an experience, but I find the Jewish community today to be much more vibrant, and I love seeing all the little children. For instance, this Friday night, this last Friday night, we had congregational dinner, and we had babies, babies at the dinner. It was marvelous. GE: We were there Saturday? BB: Yeah, yeah. SC: Along with all of that, have you belonged to any social organizations outside the Jewish community? BB: I was the vice-president of the Parent-Teacher Association's at Trexler Junior High School. As I said, I worked for the Crippled Childrens Society, I volunteered for five or six years. I think that's about, about it, yeah. SC: And with the community, has the community been more- has it dispersed more a little bit in some ways, or has it been pulling together? Because in so many communities, whether it's ethnic or religious, everything is just sort of dispersed, and there isn't a core anymore. BB: Well, I'm looking at the community, remember, from the outside-in. I'm seven months away from this community. SC: That's true. So you probably have a more objective viewpoint than some people. BB: Well, I think from what I read in Hakol, from what I just see, Federation seems to be, Jewish Federation seems to be the nucleus of what really brings the entire Jewish community together. From what I can see, there is a tremendous vibrancy within that group. Young women especially being very involved -- young men and women -- being very involved. SC: And is this the next generation or are these- Are the people that are involved now the people that have come in from other areas? Have you lost people that are, perhaps your children or your friends' children, to go work in other places and live other places? BB: Well, our children do not, unfortunately, live [here]. Our oldest son lives in Ann Arbor, Michigan, with his wife. I don't think he's- he does belong to a Chabad, but interestingly enough, he is married to a Baptist. SC: It's the new generation. BB: A new generation, yes. Our daughter lives in Rockville, Maryland. She still works. She's working for- as a reading specialist, as Lenny mentioned. Her first marriage ended in divorce. Her second marriage is to a also physically challenged man, and he's not of the Jewish faith. But she did BarMitzvah the child that they have, who was adopted. Our grandson was BarMitzvahed, so she belonged to a conservative temple. Our youngest guy and his wife live in Philadelphia. They are very active in the Jewish community. My daughter-in-law is on the Board of Federation, she's very active in Jewish Family Service. Our son was on the Board of the New Jewish Museum so they are very active and they have two youngsters. One going off to my son's alma mater, his daughter is going off this fall to his alma mater, University of Michigan. GE: He'll be able to see your older brother, or their older uncle. BB: Yeah, they're- she's thrilled that she'll be coming to Michigan. GE: I think the only thing is to ask the last couple of questions. LEONARD BLOCH: [inaudible] BB: Pardon, honey? LB: [inaudible] BB: Well that's within Federation, Jewish Family Service. LB: No [inaudible]. The Bridge. BB: The Bridge. My daughter in law and several of her friends started a new organization called the Bridge, where they specify x amount of dollars that are given only to people who unfortunately have had things happen to them that has thrown them perhaps into temporary welfare, whatever. The money they give is the bridge, the bridge that puts them back into being able to have independent lives again. GE: That's wonderful. SC: So, what do you value in life most? BB: My family. My family, my culture, my Judaism, very much my Judaism. The years when we were raising our daughter, without my faith, I don't think I would have gotten through easily. And Israel. We value Israel, we worry about Israel, and we worry, I think, about Judaism in general, and, you know, where is- where is our country going, in general. SC: Have any of your children or grandchildren been able to go to Israel? BB: Yes. SC: Because this is something that our students are really- so much opportunity, it's wonderful. BB: Yes, our oldest was in Israel when he was in his early-in college- oh no, he went before that, didn't he? LB: Early 20s. BB: Early 20s for sure he was in Israel. Our daughter -- and she is disabled, she walks with crutches and with the braces -- and she went to Israel with a youth-- We did elocution, that's what they called it. You had to give a little speech or something. SC: So you were talking about your daughter going to Israel? BB: Yes, Lenny reminded me, our daughter Carol went to Israel as a teenager. She has not since been back, as far as we know she has not been back. Our son Wayne, our youngest child, went to high school in Israel and then- GE: Was that one year? BB: One year, one summer, actually. Just one summer, and that was a marvelous experience for him. He has since been back, he brought- took his family there, just a few years ago. Lenny and I support in Israel, in Jerusalem, Alyn. Not many people know about Alyn. Alyn is the hospital for disabled, the only hospital in Israel for disabled youngsters. And we were on our first Federation trip, when we were married 20 years, we were taken to Alyn. And Alyn is one of our favorite charities. And our son went there with his family. And then our grandson did a project, he's 16, for his Bar Mitzvah, with disabled youngsters in the United States. SC: What makes you feel the most creative? BB: Creative? That's a very difficult question. Creative. I like to make mandel bread for my family, that's my specialty, making mandel bread. GE: That's like a- like biscotti? BB: Biscotti, it's a Jewish biscotti, and whenever I have to take something to a friend- GE: I'll have to give you a call to get the recipe. BB: Mine is a basic simple recipe, and everybody seems to love it. So that makes me feel very good to be able to do something like that. Creativity, I am not a musician of any sort. My chanting, my chanting makes me feel very creative. SC: Yes, metaphoric sense of creativity. LB: I was going to say, I've been at Bev's service already at the nursing home, and the looks on the faces of the residents of love when they say "here comes the Cantor". GE: Oh, yeah. BB: I enjoy doing that very much. That makes me feel very creative. LB: They really love her. SC: That's wonderful. I can understand why. I can see that. Well, thank you very much. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:59:56
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Leonard and Beverley Bloch, July 25, 2011
Description
An account of the resource
Leonard Bloch talks about his father’s reluctant start in the needle-trade business. A few years after Lenny’s father started the business, Lenny’s mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer. As a result, rather than go to college, Lenny joined the business after he graduated from high school and quickly discovered he both enjoyed and had an affinity for managing the business.
Beverly Bloch talks about the challenge of growing up in Oliphant, PA in a home where her mom worked long hours in their “mom and pop” grocery store. Growing up without her own mother at home, Beverly was determined to be a stay-at-home mother to her children.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LVTNT-31
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-07-25
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.
-
https://textile.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/b03f6465c9b6a1e8814e2f08c3d5fe21.png
890f66a5524cd0a1a8b1085df51554b5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Marc Malkovsky
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-20.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 June 1, 2017 Marc Malkovsky, June 1, 2017 LVTNT-20 1:09:23 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Marc Malkovsky Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 MalkovskyMarc_20170601 1.0:|21(14)|46(14)|67(17)|94(12)|123(8)|148(9)|175(3)|196(13)|221(14)|248(5)|273(10)|300(11)|329(7)|350(15)|381(2)|406(8)|435(4)|464(10)|489(10)|514(6)|547(14)|574(15)|601(15)|626(13)|657(9)|682(15)|709(3)|738(8)|767(16)|796(2)|825(8)|852(6)|879(7)|904(3)|931(12)|958(2)|983(3)|1010(6)|1035(6)|1060(7)|1085(14)|1112(3)|1135(9)|1162(6)|1185(18)|1210(11)|1237(9)|1262(19)|1293(5)|1322(8)|1351(9)|1380(17)|1405(9)|1434(7)|1463(4)|1492(4)|1519(7)|1544(7)|1573(10)|1602(14)|1633(11)|1654(12)|1681(13)|1712(3)|1735(7)|1762(15)|1783(14)|1808(9)|1833(5)|1934(15) 0 https://youtu.be/3hzoMqWzkkQ YouTube video 31 Introduction—Marc Malkovsky SC: So first of all what is your full name? Where were you born? Where do you live and also what is your educational history?
 ; 
 ; MM: Okay, Marc Alan Malkovsky. I was born in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Still live in Macungie right now, right outside Allentown. Born and raised, only left for college. I went to IUP for one year for business, and then I wanted to go into the culinary field, so I went up to Johnson and Wales in Providence. I was up there for four years doing restaurant and hospitality management. Left there to get a job in the Outback Corporation, worked there for about a year and a half, started through the process of becoming a proprietor and running a kitchen. And then one day I just decided, you know, that's not what I want to do. Maybe not just that type of restaurant work, still maybe in the industry but possibly something else, maybe business. And while I was looking for job, you know, my dad was like, I'm still living at home, said, you know, I’m going to work four hours a day for me on the phones, the other four hours a day you try to find a job, go out there, look to see what is available. And it was a hundred percent commission, and I just said well, if I do four hours times two a day, eight to nine hours a day, hopefully that means double the money that I'm making. It wasn’t anything crazy at the time, but you know for somebody who is unemployed, you know, anything is good. And living at home, expenses were low and you know it worked out. And I just stayed there, and that’s kind of where my career took me. 0 208 The Family Business in the 21st Century MM: [S]o when I went in to work with my father - and that was about 11 years ago now ; so it was about when I was 24 - it was just me, him, and the warehouse gentleman, George, that worked with him since he started the business basically after he moved out of the garage that he was using. So since then, I mean you know, it's changed tremendously. Our Internet presence has changed tremendously. You know, we kind of had to evolve with the times as you know through the late 90s and 2000, you know, the Internet and online shopping and marketing, you know, became a big time change. And our industry as a whole is really old school so a lot of people don't have that. They don't do the online so that was a huge change for us, and it was evolving every year, you know, little by little. 0 409 Family History in Philadelphia SC: So let’s go back into your family, what you know as far back from your father's side of the family, your mother's side of the family, and where they came from, how they got to Allentown, and anything you know about them.
 ; 
 ; MM: So, my mom's side: they were from South Philly, so she grew up, she had two sisters, and one of them actually isn’t, well is a cousin, but her parents actually died at a very young age, so my grandmother took her in. So basically from day one, I mean it just basically was her sister, and I assumed that was her sister for many many many many years, you know, didn’t even think about it. You know, similarities in looks and everything, so I didn't get to meet, I met my grandfather, her father, but he died when I was two, maybe, something of that age. So she grew up in a pretty nice household, obviously, you know, nice family with them in South Philly.
 ; 
 ; My dad grew up in North Philly. He and his brother and his mom and dad. They, I kind of knew a little bit more about that history for some reason maybe because my grandparents on that side owned a business and they sold, they had a wholesale lingerie shop underneath the blue rail in Kensington on Allegheny. And so I was there when I was little, you know, while they were selling the stuff or you know I remember the area. So I guess you could say even with that that has to do with the fabric business, you know, garment and stuff. 0 770 Father's Textile Business MM: [Y]ou know, you obviously mix in - home life was the business at a certain extent just because, you know, my dad worked in the fabric industry ; he went to Philadelphia Textiles. And my mom was, she did two different things, she was in the orthodontist field and she also, or the dental field, I guess I would say, and then she also was a nail technician that she did. So around, all these different companies my dad worked for, some big textile people in Allentown because you know, we talked about how Allentown was a big hub-mecca of whether it was for milling or selling or manufacturing just because of our location and what real estate cost compared to New York, New Jersey, Baltimore, DC, it was just so inexpensive, but yet so easy to get to. 
 ; 
 ; So he worked for all these different companies and eventually he just said ‘you know what, I can't work for people anymore, I just, I just can't do it, I need to go out on my own.’ And that happened in ‘95, yeah ‘95. So, big risk. My sister graduated in ‘97, so two 2 years before she’s about to go to college. And, like I said before, my dad always wanted to do everything he could for us. So my sister did get a job when she went to school. I think she had a partial soccer scholarship, but you know it wasn’t a question, he wanted to make sure he took care of us and try to help out in any way. 0 900 Mother's "Tips to Toes Nail Salon" MM: And not long after that, my mom decided she was doing nails and everything in our basement and they had different clothes that they were selling while they were down there. They decided well, let's open up a shop for her too. So my mom is running a business at the time, and my dad was also helping and that was on Tilghman Street, it was called Tips to Toes Nail Salon. And she was running that, my dad was helping, so I was there, you know, sometimes when she had to watch me, sometimes, you know, I was with my dad. 
 ; 
 ; So I had two parents that were kind of running their own business, which was a great experience to see and I think, you know, it was definitely valuable in not even realizing it subconsciously of probably having how I grew up as a child, and things that I've learned without even knowing I was learning them and experiences, which definitely helped me to where I am today, for sure. 0 1058 Sister's Education and Career SC: May I ask where your sister went to college and what she does and you have another brother?
 ; 
 ; MM: Nope, just a sister.
 ; 
 ; SC: Oh, just a sister, I don’t know why I imagined that.
 ; 
 ; MM: No, it’s alright. She went to Ohio University. She went to play soccer and she then decided two years afterwards, I think she’s stopped playing soccer her senior year, she went into Family Education, I guess I'm trying to think of whether the exact title was back then. And then she came home and she didn't know what she wanted to do. She went and worked in Hoboken and actually that was kinda, that was, she lived with, you know, her roommate from Ohio who was from Ohio and she moved out to Hoboken, so they actually stayed together, and they lived out there, which was nice. 0 1243 Reflecting on Change—Technology & ; Childhood MM: [L]ife is, life evolves, life’s different. You know, we were talking earlier about just, you know, even this computer, you know like everyone talks about how different things were back in like the 50s and the 60s and the 70s and to us, I was born in ‘82. You know, when we say ‘well you know I was in the 90s’ and to us it doesn't seem that long ago. You know, but 20 years, if you go look back you’re like, when you talk about the Internet, you click on your phone, you're up on that just like that 30 seconds. We used to have to sign on and you’d hear these weird noises and you know seeing you can’t connect, you can't do this, and that's basically, you know, where my business went and that's how our business flourished, which was great and that's, that was a huge change, like everything. I used to remember sitting in front of the typewriter, had to type papers, and every time you know I made a mistake, I have to white it out with the brush and kind of set it back up perfectly if I could, you know, just to type something up. And now I mean, it would be odd to see a letter come that's typed on the typewriter. It would be very weird. 0 1483 Father's Experience as an Employee in the Textile Industry—Burlington, Levine's, and Fisher Textiles MM: So he actually wasn't in wholesaling when he first started, he was in the manufacturing end of it, so he worked for large companies. He worked for Burlington out of New York. So he basically, his one of his, in the early years of his career, after he graduated from Philadelphia Textile, which is Philadelphia University now, he was in charge of the manufacturing, so he got to see that end of the business as well. You know, up to the garment making, the pattern making, you know all the costs that are involved in that, all the different levels. And as he progressed then he, you know, decided to change, you know, fields in the industry. And when he came into Allentown, he worked for Levine's, and they had a large warehouse, and he was in the upper management there, the selling of the fabrics. So they also had retail stores in Allentown, downtown Allentown they had one, they had one in Tilghman Square. And, so he was involved in that a little bit but not so much because he was involved more in bulk purchasing and selling. At that point I really didn't know much anything about the business. I knew where his office was, I knew where he worked, I used to go visit him mainly because the Levines, for their sons, they had go-cart so I was able to drive those around the parking lot, which is pretty cool as a little kid. So obviously I always liked visiting my dad at work. But he then he worked for Levine's, he worked for another company called Fisher Textiles, which was in Allentown. And I'm pretty sure there's one other one but Fisher was the last one and that was basically when he said you know ‘I can't work for anybody anymore and I just decided to get out.’ 0 1588 1995: Creating "Nick of Time Textiles" MM: And through, let’s see, that must've been, see ‘46, and he graduated at 20, so ‘66, ‘67, so probably about 30 years. And, you know, over 30 years in the fabric industry, you tend to meet a lot of people. He is definitely a jokester, you know, he's pretty lighthearted, you know, likes to have a good time, so he was able to meet a lot of contacts, meet a lot of people that liked him, I’m sure there were some people might not have, but that’s everybody. 
 ; 
 ; And fortunately he decided to leave, he talked to some people down in the Carolinas, and his one friend said ‘you know, I'm going to ship you some fabric, let’s get you started and you pay me when you pay me, no big deal.’ And luckily, only friends are to do that for you, you know, help you get started. And everybody needs that when you're starting your business. It’s hard to do it just solely on your own. You always need a connection. You always need someone to kind of help you, push you. 
 ; 
 ; So, you know, he did that. He formed a website, which was in ‘95/’96, right when, you know, the Internet started coming along. It really was just kind of an informative website, really didn’t have much to it, no relativity to search engines back then, you know, whatever search engines might have been at that time, and, you know, just making calls. Calling people all the time, talking to people, traveling. 0 1755 Purchasers & ; Products GE: And the people who were buying, tell us again, they were other, who were they? What businesses were they in?
 ; 
 ; MM: I’m pretty sure, I mean, back then it was, you know, there's a lot of larger manufacturers. I mean everything was in the US, you know back then. Everybody was making everything here, so there could have been small, you know, now we would called them boutique people, you know, small companies, people, you know, just got out of sewing school, you know, they’re starting their own apparel company, and you know they are trying to make it, so they’re buying fabric. There could be large stores, you know, like any of the malls, you know, whether it was Hess’s or Macy's or something like that, you know, they were buying from different people in the US, like my father was building to be a company like that that could supply them. So large and small, back then it was all basically apparel manufacturing is what the fabric industry was and what people were selling to, the people that were buying, and that still is a big part today but it's changed tremendously. 0 1919 Marc Malkovsky's Role in the Family Business—Partnership with Harris Malkovsky MM: So I got into the business, that was the mid-90s, you know, and I was always working with him, not for him, I was, like I mentioned earlier, I was cutting samples, I was, you know, moving the fabric, you know, helping him cut stuff, you know, after school. So kind of integrating myself into the business even though that definitely was not where I said I wanted to go nor did he say he wanted to direct me there. So I was involved at that point and then after college when I wasn't involved and then I, you know, went my own route and then decided, you know, that wasn't the way I wanted to go and he asked me to start working for him, as I mentioned, so it's, you know, I started doing phone sales. It was very small. I mean we had a decent sized warehouse at that point. We had a lot of fabric, and, you know, I just started working for him. And, you know, it was nice. 
 ; 
 ; Luckily I think getting into it at that point and not being my primary thinking of that's my job, it was kind of maybe an easy way of getting us to work together. Cause working with family for most people is impossible. Some people it’s very hard. Some people find it very easy. I’d put us probably right in the middle of easy and hard. It's not hard by any means. It's pretty easy. Luckily because he, from day one when I started working with him, he was kind of open. 0 2160 Becoming an E-Commerce Business MM: The Internet, as that evolved, you know, that kept helping us go. I was Internet, not Internet savvy, but I knew more about the Internet, you know, and that was a good push for us to be able to do that but that took, to get to that point I mean, that probably took another five, six . . . 5 years, I would say, until like we really pushed it because Internet is very expensive in order to create a legit website. Not these websites that say go on GoDaddy.com and get a website for $10. It doesn't really give you the presence out there if you're trying to sell to America, you know, and Canada and possibly Mexico and everything else. So that kind of propelled us to the next level. And we’ve kind of, you know, you never want to get stagnant just like kind of stay. You need to keep evolving, you need to keep changing. We’ve changed our website, you know, maybe four or five times and that's helped us grow and he still has a ton of input and I learn something from him probably every single day. And, you know, things that I might not think are good idea, he does, and, you know, we do them. And things that he doesn’t think are a good idea, he lets me know them. You know, and that's kinda the great relationship that we formed, and like how we helped the business grow to where it is.
 ; 
 ; GE: So at this point you were really truly an e-commerce business. 0 2308 Internet Versus Warehouse Sales GE: So of your total sales, about what percentage at this point are come from the website, you know, that are e-commerce versus coming to your warehouse?
 ; 
 ; MM: Um, of it's kind of tough to put an exact number on it only because the people coming to the warehouse could have found us through the site so I would, I mean if you had to put a number I would probably definitely say it's minuscule of people that are just local people that just saw the sign. You know you might say that's 5%, you know, and everything is 95% otherwise. If you did just total in-house sales, you know, that number might go up to 10 or to 15%, but those people probably found us through the website, one way or another.
 ; 
 ; GE: So at this point your customer base, who you’re selling your fabric to, really the Internet is essential.
 ; 
 ; MM: Oh, yeah. The Internet goes down, our website goes down, it's, you know, there was a time, it was a couple months ago, and our website was down for say two days. While in that two days I can lose, you know, maybe $10,000 in sales. 0 2432 Advantages of Nick of Time Textiles—Youth, Diversity, Networking, & ; Technology MM: There’s, in my opinion, there's a lot of wholesalers of fabric out there, that's for sure. In my opinion, like us--probably a handful. You know, the one thing is, you know, you have a group of friends wherever or people that you talk to, and this person might be in this industry in somebody else's ; I don't have anybody that is in my industry. Not one friend that's in fabric, never was, never thought about it. You know, back when I started, you know, we were talking off camera, I think I started at 24 and I was probably the youngest person in America selling fabric unless some child, you know, came right out of high school work for the father that I didn't know about. But when I would go out to LA in my early years to meet people and gain more contacts, when I would walk in the door and I told them who I was, they were like ‘you’re Marc?’ You know, they thought I was 45, you know, and they see this kid walking in at 24, and they were just all shocked and they were like ‘dude, you’re young for this industry.’ You know, it was a great thing because eventually, people, you know, you get older. They’re gonna get out of it, and I'm still going to be present, and I’m gonna, you know, keep growing. 
 ; 
 ; We do a lot of different things than other wholesalers do. Our website is more prominent than most wholesale companies out there. There are other fabric websites but there's a lot of retail, there’s not so much wholesale, which helps. You know, the random person will go online and find us. 0 3175 Benefits of the Internet in Relationship to Suppliers MM: So the suppliers: two things the website can help in ways because suppliers are also, they’re obviously looking to sell. They don’t want to sell to the people I want to sell to. They want to sell to people like me. So sometimes they’ll go online and they’ll find people. And they’ll contact me and say ‘hey,’ you know, they’ll call me up and say ‘what do you, I see you sell this, this, and this, you know, we offer this. Let me send you some samples, let's talk about, you know.’ And then we can start doing business that way.
 ; 
 ; Another way that I guess would be a supplier of ours is actually our customers are also suppliers. In ways to where they do manufacturing, and we sell them a bunch fabric or maybe somebody sold them a bunch of fabric, and they have all this excess fabric and their lines over, they don’t know what to do with it, and they go online say, ‘I got to find somebody to sell this to.’ So they go online and they find us, and I get emails all the time saying, ‘hey, I am just curious, I found you online, do you guys buy fabric?’ And obviously we buy fabric. We have to buy fabric to sell fabric. So we’ll buy their leftover fabric. 0 3295 Fabric Brokers So people call me and say, you know, ‘I wanted to…’ We probably have over million yards of fabric right now. We have on the West Coast probably you know 40 different companies we can use that probably have millions and millions yards of fabric that we can sell off anytime we want and ship directly from them as if it's coming from us, so we're repping their line in a way but nobody knows about them.
 ; 
 ; GE: So you’re, in that case, you’re not, you don’t own it, you’re a broker of it.
 ; 
 ; MM: Yup, I’m a broker of it. 0 3393 Financial Growth of the Business—Sales GE: So, um, so it sounds like, if I understand, over the past ten years that you’ve been actively in the business, from the beginning until now, it sounds like it has grown a lot.
 ; 
 ; MM: Yeah, for sure.
 ; 
 ; GE: And was that growing five times? Two times? 
 ; 
 ; MM: Probably, if sales wise, in sales it’s gone, you know, if sales go up and down, it stays pretty consistent. Since I started, you know, at our highest point it grew 10 times and probably, you know, on an average, it's probably about seven times. So I mean it's tremendously, tremendous to where it was for sure. 0 3624 Profits GE: So Marc, where sales have gone up about seven times over the last ten years, how about, what about the profit, bottomline? Cause I realize you also hold a lot of more expenses and things and whatever.
 ; 
 ; MM: Yeah I mean the expenses are a lot more compared to what they are but I mean...
 ; 
 ; GE: Right, but that’s commensurate with the sales.
 ; 
 ; MM: Yeah, I mean, most businesses are going to be like that. I mean I would love to have a business model that my business sales grew seven times and my expenses stayed the same. I mean that would be fantastic. You know, for our business that's not the case and, you know, I would say well when I was younger I would say I wouldn’t need as much money, you know, to live. And having a family now, fortunately, you know, my wife doesn’t have to work. You know, she's at home. She does work part time, you know, once she is back from having the baby, and that's kinda just for her presence of mind. 0 3797 Jewish Involvement in the Textile and Needle-Trade Industry—Past & ; Present GE: So I’m curious, years ago for most of the older people that we have interviewed, there was a dominance, there was a pretty large presence of Jewish people in the business. A lot of Italians, a lot of other people, but certainly, given how small the population is, there had to be a large percentage of Jewish people. Is that because, I don’t know, we have not interviewed a lot of people who currently have a business, is that still the case?
 ; 
 ; MM: Yeah, uh, 99%.
 ; 
 ; GE: Ok, wow.
 ; 
 ; MM: You know, where did that come from…
 ; 
 ; GE: I was going to ask you, what do you think might be any reasons for that?
 ; 
 ; MM: Uh, I don't know, I think, you know, I just I think it was something from back in the day, you know, over whether it was in Israel or Iran, you know cause there are a lot of Iranian Jews, you know, that have come over that were in the fabric industry. I think there was a big fabric hub, you know, back in the day like over there and when everyone came, everybody, you know, migrated over here it kind of followed them and that was what they knew, you know, so you tend to have into whether it was the Jewish over here or Irish over here or you know Italians over here. Everybody for certain, it might have started in other industries, starting to diverse itself, for some reason in this industry it's not and I don't know why. Everybody I deal with is Jewish basically. I don't think there's one, there might be maybe one or two people, you know, that I buy fabric from that are not Jewish by any means. 0 3962 Marc Malkovsky's Inspiration and Values SC: What has made you feel the most creative in your life?
 ; 
 ; MM: Um, the most creative, um, hm, I mean I, you know, probably my parents. You know just, you know, the openness of letting me do things, you know, and then in business with my father, you know, letting me take control as a young person. Being, you know, getting ideas and seeing them and then learning and being able to open up and kind of venture into my own things, you know, they never, they never pushed me and said ‘you need to go to this.’ You know, I got tons of friends and families say, ‘well you need to go to nursing school, or you need to do this.’ You know, I was never pushed in any direction, but I was backed a hundred percent no matter where I went, so that’s what I would say.
 ; 
 ; SC: And what do you value most in life?
 ; 
 ; MM: Um, it would, I mean, there's a, you know, family obviously is very important, you know, and I think a lot of people would say that off the bat. 0 MovingImage Marc Malkovsky talks about helping his dad cut samples in the basement for the business while Marc was still in high school. A few years after college, Marc joined his father in the business. Together, they embraced the Internet and incrementally built an e-commerce site for the business. Nick of Time is a current, thriving Allentown business. Interview with Marc Malkovsky, June 1, 2017 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: So today is June 1, 2017 and we're going to be starting with some just general background questions and then move into a little bit more of your family connections and then go from there and then go into the business and then and end of my two questions sort of go deeper into you. MARC MALKOVSKY: Okay. SC: So first of all what is your full name? Where were you born? Where do you live and also what is your educational history? MM: Okay, Marc Alan Malkovsky. I was born in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Still live in Macungie right now, right outside Allentown. Born and raised, only left for college. I went to IUP for one year for business, and then I wanted to go into the culinary field, so I went up to Johnson and Wales in Providence. I was up there for four years doing restaurant and hospitality management. Left there to get a job in the Outback Corporation, worked there for about a year and a half, started through the process of becoming a proprietor and running a kitchen. And then one day I just decided, you know, that's not what I want to do. Maybe not just that type of restaurant work, still maybe in the industry but possibly something else, maybe business. And while I was looking for job, you know, my dad was like, I'm still living at home, said, you know, I'm going to work four hours a day for me on the phones, the other four hours a day you try to find a job, go out there, look to see what is available. And it was a hundred percent commission, and I just said well, if I do four hours times two a day, eight to nine hours a day, hopefully that means double the money that I'm making. It wasn't anything crazy at the time, but you know for somebody who is unemployed, you know, anything is good. And living at home, expenses were low and you know it worked out. And I just stayed there, and that's kind of where my career took me. SC: So next let's just go where do you live, more specifically and where talk a little bit more about are you still with the business and have you changed with the business of your job, with the business? We'll talk more about that later. MM: Sure, yeah, the location I live is still over by, it's called Brookside Country Club. It's over off of Sauerkraut. Moved there about three years ago. I used to live over in an area called Greenhills in a condo that I owned before I got married. So we lived there for about a year or so. And in that time before marriage, six months before, we were looking for a house. Just said, you know, let's not wait to the very end, let's kind of start looking now, and if we happen to find something, you know, that's great. And I think we looked for about a year and a half until we found what we really wanted because we were pretty picky in what we were looking for. And then we bought the house, and we moved over there, so that's where we reside. And you said, you know, about the company, so when I went in to work with my father - and that was about 11 years ago now ; so it was about when I was 24 - it was just me, him, and the warehouse gentleman, George, that worked with him since he started the business basically after he moved out of the garage that he was using. So since then, I mean you know, it's changed tremendously. Our Internet presence has changed tremendously. You know, we kind of had to evolve with the times as you know through the late 90s and 2000, you know, the Internet and online shopping and marketing, you know, became a big time change. And our industry as a whole is really old school so a lot of people don't have that. They don't do the online so that was a huge change for us, and it was evolving every year, you know, little by little. We eventually had to move out of where we were because of building inspections in Allentown about nine years, eight years ago there was a huge overhaul because building were not up to code, people were using them as apartments, they weren't supposed to, there were electrical heating fires, people's plug in heaters were going all over the place. So landlords that owned all of these building started telling on each other, and they started coming in, the marshal started coming in, and they wanted to shut our building down day one and we convinced them because it was a family business, they were basically going to put us, we were not going to make any money, put us out and they left it open for seven days, the landlord came in and was like I'm not fixing any of the stuff, you know, I'm not paying for this, it's too much money. So we had to move an entire warehouse just my dad, I and the gentleman, George, in seven days while we still ran the business. So we would work from 8 AM to 3 PM, and then we take a break and work from 4 PM until 10 PM for a week to try to move everything out as fast as we could. Ended up being a blessing because where we moved we have a lot more presence on the street. We're on Union Boulevard in Allentown-- big, the tall building. We had the third floor. It's a retail space but we're not retail and there's no elevator that gets you all the way up there, really, so it's not, it doesn't cost us that much per se because there's no other retail stores that would really go in there so we take space for the landlord that really would be unsellable, and we just grew from there. Now we have that floor, we have another floor. The company now instead of my dad, I, and a gentleman in the warehouse, we went and we had one employee, and then we got another person in the warehouse, so we had two extra employees. Then another lady in the office. Now we've grown to, on-and-off it really depends on right now with three ladies in the office, we did have four at one time, but learning new ways of how to do everyone's job more efficient, we only three right now. And we have five gentleman in the warehouse. So yes, so basically with my dad and I, I think we're, you know, anywhere from 9 to 10 employees at this point. SC: It's so interesting hearing this from your dad's perspective and from your perspective-- MM: ...it intertwines different, different points of view for sure, I would assume that. SC: It does, yes. So let's go back into your family, what you know as far back from your father's side of the family, your mother's side of the family, and where they came from, how they got to Allentown, and anything you know about them. MM: So, my mom's side: they were from South Philly, so she grew up, she had two sisters, and one of them actually isn't, well is a cousin, but her parents actually died at a very young age, so my grandmother took her in. So basically from day one, I mean it just basically was her sister, and I assumed that was her sister for many many many many years, you know, didn't even think about it. You know, similarities in looks and everything, so I didn't get to meet, I met my grandfather, her father, but he died when I was two, maybe, something of that age. So she grew up in a pretty nice household, obviously, you know, nice family with them in South Philly. My dad grew up in North Philly. He and his brother and his mom and dad. They, I kind of knew a little bit more about that history for some reason maybe because my grandparents on that side owned a business and they sold, they had a wholesale lingerie shop underneath the blue rail in Kensington on Allegheny. And so I was there when I was little, you know, while they were selling the stuff or you know I remember the area. So I guess you could say even with that that has to do with the fabric business, you know, garment and stuff. My dad was always around that type of business in that area. You know, the families, I think on his side for sure, I was always told my grandparents, my dad said his parents never did anything wrong, you know. And I think, it's probably a little different, you know, working with him, where obviously we're partners so I have a sometimes critical things, and it's tough for him on that side because you know, in his eyes his parents never did anything wrong. But in a business you know he accepts that because we're all going to make mistakes and as long as you can work together, it's better that way. So, you know, his dad was always there for him, did everything he could, and I think, you know, that passed onto my father to, you know, how he treated his kids and raised us. You know, my grandmother, I think she got a sense of humor from her. She was a riot, and she still was until the day that she passed. And, you know, I think it's just a lot of the values of the family. Luckily they were both very different, like how, you know, my mom's side was definitely more religious, my dad's side, you know, still had the Judaism in them and were religious to a certain extent. But that whole living situation, you know, my dad wanted to move in with my mom before marriage, her parents weren't happy about that by any means, so they would come over, my dad would leave, so he wasn't there, so they really didn't see anything or, you know, out of sight, out of mind type of deal. So two different families definitely, just, you know, also where they grew up, my mom you know in the South was more type of suburb-ish compared to being under the Blue Rail, you know, with in an alley, in a row home. Kind of, I guess, in a row home in a way, you know, just like in the city blocks, you know, and that's kind of like where they came from. And then did you say move into my family, I guess or? SC: Well, do you know where those families came from? Did your family, your parents, your grandparents, ever talk about how they got to America? MM: Not too much, no, to be honest. That never, wasn't really big conversation, that, you know, that came up. My grandparents, you know, passed in history. I mean, you know, I know, you know, both sides were Polish. I know there was a lot of different history, and I know my dad has talked a little bit about different family members, you know, throughout Europe and where they might've been and where they might've traveled, but not anything in great detail, I guess you would say. SC: So, it gets lost sometimes, over the generations. MM: Yeah, yeah, I guess it depends on how interested maybe some people are, you know, there's always ways of finding out now, I know everybody's doing the DNA testing and stuff to see where they came from and what their makeup is. And I know that my wife wanted to do that on her side and then my side too to try to kind of see, you know, where we might have kind of originated from. But most likely, you know, based on the background, my last, my mom's last name was Press. My dad's Malkovsky. It was definitely, you know, from Poland, most likely. SC: And do you know any other names back further, did anyone ever talk about that? MM: No, it really didn't. I don't know if it was just something that just didn't come down from my grandparents, but again, you know, I was young, my, other grandfather died when I was three, so I really had no, I have memories but I don't know if those memories are just from pictures of me seeing, cause it's tough when you're three, if you are going to remember anything like that. So everything else was just kind of based around my grandmothers, and it's not so much that they didn't want to talk about it or maybe concentrate on anything in the past, but they did a really good job of concentrating on us, you know, in making us the important thing, you know, and doing whatever they could for us I would say. SC: So any memories that really stand out about your own parents with either, with the business or just home life or-- MM: Um, yeah, I mean, you know, you obviously mix in - home life was the business at a certain extent just because, you know, my dad worked in the fabric industry ; he went to Philadelphia Textiles. And my mom was, she did two different things, she was in the orthodontist field and she also, or the dental field, I guess I would say, and then she also was a nail technician that she did. So around, all these different companies my dad worked for, some big textile people in Allentown because you know, we talked about how Allentown was a big hub-mecca of whether it was for milling or selling or manufacturing just because of our location and what real estate cost compared to New York, New Jersey, Baltimore, DC, it was just so inexpensive, but yet so easy to get to. So he worked for all these different companies and eventually he just said 'you know what, I can't work for people anymore, I just, I just can't do it, I need to go out on my own.' And that happened in '95, yeah '95. So, big risk. My sister graduated in '97, so two 2 years before she's about to go to college. And, like I said before, my dad always wanted to do everything he could for us. So my sister did get a job when she went to school. I think she had a partial soccer scholarship, but you know it wasn't a question, he wanted to make sure he took care of us and try to help out in any way. So to know that he has a college expense coming on, another kid immediately graduating three years later after my sister, going out starting his own business, you know, we had, he basically had a connection that he grew friendly with in the Carolinas, which is a big mecca for fabric as well. And he shipped them up a bunch of fabric, had it in the garage and basically said, you know, pay me when you can pay me. So, you know, looking at a two-car garage filled with fabric and basically he was just selling to hopefully, you know, small designers that he knew, that he gained relationships with when he worked at other companies. And that's how he got the ball rolling. And not long after that, my mom decided she was doing nails and everything in our basement and they had different clothes that they were selling while they were down there. They decided well, let's open up a shop for her too. So my mom is running a business at the time, and my dad was also helping and that was on Tilghman Street, it was called Tips to Toes Nail Salon. And she was running that, my dad was helping, so I was there, you know, sometimes when she had to watch me, sometimes, you know, I was with my dad. So I had two parents that were kind of running their own business, which was a great experience to see and I think, you know, it was definitely valuable in not even realizing it subconsciously of probably having how I grew up as a child, and things that I've learned without even knowing I was learning them and experiences, which definitely helped me to where I am today, for sure. You know, in just when you have two family members running businesses, it's, you know, a lot different than just having, you know, a job somewhere because the financials. So all of a sudden, things aren't going as well in this business, maybe they are not going as well as this business. You know, money starts to get a little tight. You know I think there's no there's definitely some tough times in, you know, tough times for, you know, give more stress ; stress has arguments and things happen. And you never should say money is important because it is not the end-all factor. Unfortunately, it does make the world go round, and it does make things easier in life, and less stressful. So there were some rough times definitely, you know, in the house, but they prevailed, you know, they kept moving forward. You know, my dad was very determined, you know, in what his vision was, in his goal was, and where he wanted to get to. Eventually they just decide to sell the nail salon because it just became too much. Then my mom just went back to the dental field to work. And, you know, my dad continued to grow the business as much as he could. I mean, after school, I would cut samples in the basement, you know, I would help him, you know, doing that instead of some kids were cleaning up the room and doing chores, these were like my chores, you know, like I was helping out. And in that essence, I was learning part of the fabrics, you know, I was learning how to cut them, I was learning what types they were. So even at 14, 13 years old, you know, I was still starting to learn stuff at that point, not realizing how I was going to need it later in life. So, you know, it was interesting childhood, I guess you would say, to say the least. SC: May I ask where your sister went to college and what she does and you have another brother? MM: Nope, just a sister. SC: Oh, just a sister, I don't know why I imagined that. MM: No, it's alright. She went to Ohio University. She went to play soccer and she then decided two years afterwards, I think she's stopped playing soccer her senior year, she went into Family Education, I guess I'm trying to think of whether the exact title was back then. And then she came home and she didn't know what she wanted to do. She went and worked in Hoboken and actually that was kinda, that was, she lived with, you know, her roommate from Ohio who was from Ohio and she moved out to Hoboken, so they actually stayed together, and they lived out there, which was nice. And then that whole, that 9/11 happened, and my sister lived in Hoboken, and she worked in Manhattan, so she actually took the train in there, and she basically was, I forget how many blocks away but I think she was eight blocks away because she basically got off the train and 30 minutes later is when everything happened. So, you know, that was kind of rattling in our family a little bit because she had to get stuffed onto a ferry and gets sent over and luckily, you know, at that time everybody came together and somebody housed her for like a week, fed her, clothed her, which was nice, you know. And then eventually she decided to leave Hoboken and try to figure something else out. Her roommate got engaged, got married, moved out. And then she went to Kutztown University for her graduate degree in counseling. While she was living at home, she was doing that and so she went through that progress, she got a job right out of school at Allen, Allentown School District. So she's the, she's been there for probably 11 years now. You know, she started probably when she was 27 so she's been the guidance counselor at Allentown. So, she's married, two kids, niece and nephew. So she's local, which is good, local and safe. SC: Do you remember where she was working when she was living in Hoboken? MM: No, it was just, you know, as you can imagine how big Manhattan is. It was just a big firm. She wasn't doing anything that really was relative to her college degree as probably 99% of people that come out of college don't, you know, they don't know where they're going or they just need to get a job, so they get a job wherever they can to get started at least at that time. And so it was just a big firm whether it was moving papers, or you know whatever it might've been, that's kinda where she was. SC: Do you have any random memories from other... you did talk about early memories from your childhood, anything else that you'd like to share or about the future? MM: In regards to-- SC: Just life. MM: ...Just life? SC: Yeah. MM: I don't know, I mean, you know, life is, life evolves, life's different. You know, we were talking earlier about just, you know, even this computer, you know like everyone talks about how different things were back in like the 50s and the 60s and the 70s and to us, I was born in '82. You know, when we say 'well you know I was in the 90s' and to us it doesn't seem that long ago. You know, but 20 years, if you go look back you're like, when you talk about the Internet, you click on your phone, you're up on that just like that 30 seconds. We used to have to sign on and you'd hear these weird noises and you know seeing you can't connect, you can't do this, and that's basically, you know, where my business went and that's how our business flourished, which was great and that's, that was a huge change, like everything. I used to remember sitting in front of the typewriter, had to type papers, and every time you know I made a mistake, I have to white it out with the brush and kind of set it back up perfectly if I could, you know, just to type something up. And now I mean, it would be odd to see a letter come that's typed on the typewriter. It would be very weird. So I think just changing, we talked about the different generations, you know, I push my kid to, I have two kids now, but one of them can't move really, only two months old. My daughter's two and a half, we pushed her, we want her to play outside as much as possible. We did that growing up, and I don't think kids do that. I mean I see certain kids that never go outside, you know, they prefer to sit in front of a computer where they're probably learning, you know, and maybe in 10 years, maybe that was the right thing, you know, based on how the world goes but, you know, you need that outdoor activity and live as a child and kind of enjoy that stuff. I mean we played games around the yard. But the different thing is now, you know, just like I see with, you want your kids outside, but then you have to be watching your kids. When I was little, not saying that my parents didn't watch us, 'oh, you're going two doors down, yeah, go ahead.' No big deal. You run around, you bike somewhere, now you see people posting watch out for this car, approaching kids, you know, people that are trying to take kids, stuff like that, you know. So, not that maybe that wasn't happening back then, but I think everything is now under a microscope and everybody is so sensitive nowadays compared to what they used to be and in some situations, that's a good thing and I think some situations, it's horrible because you look too deep into situations and when things used to be, you know, so easy and so fine and not a big deal, now everything is a big deal. I think that's an unfortunate part, but there's no way to change that. That's kinda, that's why I will be curious to see where it is 20 years from now. Everybody says, oh just wait, you know, all the time you know, like just wait 'til you're married, just wait 'til you have a kid, just wait 'til your kid's ten, just wait 'til your kid, you know, does this or wants to go out here, you know, where you can say 'oh, I'll be fine,' you know, then all of a sudden it happens and you're like wait a second, no you're not going or you can't do this. So it's fun to see evolve as long as your mind is open to change, you know, I think it's nice. SC: Thank you. MM: You're welcome. GAIL EISENBERG: So now we're going to start talking a little more about the business and if you want to give us a sense of the origins, how, you did quickly, how your dad got started, what role was he? Cause as I understand correctly, he was wholesaler, right? MM: Yup. GE: And so what role that was, how that business model works, how do you get your supplies, how do you, who were the customers? So if you want to give us a little bit of background telling us about how it started, how it grew, you know, when you got into it, and that way we can start a progression. MM: Yeah, sure. So he actually wasn't in wholesaling when he first started, he was in the manufacturing end of it, so he worked for large companies. He worked for Burlington out of New York. So he basically, his one of his, in the early years of his career, after he graduated from Philadelphia Textile, which is Philadelphia University now, he was in charge of the manufacturing, so he got to see that end of the business as well. You know, up to the garment making, the pattern making, you know all the costs that are involved in that, all the different levels. And as he progressed then he, you know, decided to change, you know, fields in the industry. And when he came into Allentown, he worked for Levine's, and they had a large warehouse, and he was in the upper management there, the selling of the fabrics. So they also had retail stores in Allentown, downtown Allentown they had one, they had one in Tilghman Square. And, so he was involved in that a little bit but not so much because he was involved more in bulk purchasing and selling. At that point I really didn't know much anything about the business. I knew where his office was, I knew where he worked, I used to go visit him mainly because the Levines, for their sons, they had go-cart so I was able to drive those around the parking lot, which is pretty cool as a little kid. So obviously I always liked visiting my dad at work. But he then he worked for Levine's, he worked for another company called Fisher Textiles, which was in Allentown. And I'm pretty sure there's one other one but Fisher was the last one and that was basically when he said you know 'I can't work for anybody anymore and I just decided to get out.' And through, let's see, that must've been, see '46, and he graduated at 20, so '66, '67, so probably about 30 years. And, you know, over 30 years in the fabric industry, you tend to meet a lot of people. He is definitely a jokester, you know, he's pretty lighthearted, you know, likes to have a good time, so he was able to meet a lot of contacts, meet a lot of people that liked him, I'm sure there were some people might not have, but that's everybody. And fortunately he decided to leave, he talked to some people down in the Carolinas, and his one friend said 'you know, I'm going to ship you some fabric, let's get you started and you pay me when you pay me, no big deal.' And luckily, only friends are to do that for you, you know, help you get started. And everybody needs that when you're starting your business. It's hard to do it just solely on your own. You always need a connection. You always need someone to kind of help you, push you. So, you know, he did that. He formed a website, which was in '95/'96, right when, you know, the Internet started coming along. It really was just kind of an informative website, really didn't have much to it, no relativity to search engines back then, you know, whatever search engines might have been at that time, and, you know, just making calls. Calling people all the time, talking to people, traveling. He would go down the Carolinas probably twice a month, you know, and he would do, because family was very important, he would drive down and drive back up, you know, basically in a 24-hour period. So he was always traveling, always, and that's how the business was. You know, you would take your samples, you cut your samples off your rolls, you pack them up in a suitcase, you would travel to different people that you can sell fabric to, whether it was large manufacturers, small apparel manufacturers, anybody else who sold fabric as well that you could job fabric to. And that's, you know, what the business was. GE: So when you say that he went down to the Carolinas with, that was selling fabric-- MM: It was selling and buying, you know, it was meeting a lot of people, you know, that he could either to do business with, also, you know, to sell to or that he could get, you know information on what goods can he buy, you know, what other goods are out there. So he knew based on what customers might be looking for, where he could turn to go and get those goods in order to sell them to them. You know, you can always work off of your own inventory which is a great thing because that's money that you can just bring in, but to always have an awareness of what else is out there when somebody's asking you. That's the type of people that kinda ended up making it because they kept going, they kept searching for new stuff, so that's why he made a lot of trips down to the Carolinas. GE: And the people who were buying, tell us again, they were other, who were they? What businesses were they in? MM: I'm pretty sure, I mean, back then it was, you know, there's a lot of larger manufacturers. I mean everything was in the US, you know back then. Everybody was making everything here, so there could have been small, you know, now we would called them boutique people, you know, small companies, people, you know, just got out of sewing school, you know, they're starting their own apparel company, and you know they are trying to make it, so they're buying fabric. There could be large stores, you know, like any of the malls, you know, whether it was Hess's or Macy's or something like that, you know, they were buying from different people in the US, like my father was building to be a company like that that could supply them. So large and small, back then it was all basically apparel manufacturing is what the fabric industry was and what people were selling to, the people that were buying, and that still is a big part today but it's changed tremendously. GE: Now your dad is not selling made apparel, correct? MM: No, they are so, it's not, he didn't make the garments. Basically what it is, it's the raw material. GE: So he's selling the fabrics. MM: Yup. So the raw materials is really, I mean you could look at it two ways. It's finished material after it's made, it's rolls of fabric and basically you would sell them and they go to a pattern maker and a manufacturer and then they cut the garments and sew the garments up for the customers. And then they sell them as their own product line. GE: So when a Hess's or Macy's bought from him, were they just buying from him for the fabric department, not for their clothing. MM: No, it was all for clothing. So they, since they were probably doing their manufacturing in the US, they would say 'okay we need the designers for that worked for them at the time, we need 10,000 yards of black X type of fabric.' So they would buy that, send it off to the mill, they would have it manufactured, they would have to make the garments, then they would dispersed it to the stores. So they all had different buying departments and that's how that would work, and then that's what you would see if the final product on the shelves when they have their own brand in there compared to all these other brands nowadays in small boutiques and everything else that's going on. The big department stores don't really buy like that in the US anymore. GE: So this is the mid-90s, and tell us now when you got into the business, and then together, how you and your father have continued to grow the business? MM: So I got into the business, that was the mid-90s, you know, and I was always working with him, not for him, I was, like I mentioned earlier, I was cutting samples, I was, you know, moving the fabric, you know, helping him cut stuff, you know, after school. So kind of integrating myself into the business even though that definitely was not where I said I wanted to go nor did he say he wanted to direct me there. So I was involved at that point and then after college when I wasn't involved and then I, you know, went my own route and then decided, you know, that wasn't the way I wanted to go and he asked me to start working for him, as I mentioned, so it's, you know, I started doing phone sales. It was very small. I mean we had a decent sized warehouse at that point. We had a lot of fabric, and, you know, I just started working for him. And, you know, it was nice. Luckily I think getting into it at that point and not being my primary thinking of that's my job, it was kind of maybe an easy way of getting us to work together. Cause working with family for most people is impossible. Some people it's very hard. Some people find it very easy. I'd put us probably right in the middle of easy and hard. It's not hard by any means. It's pretty easy. Luckily because he, from day one when I started working with him, he was kind of open. A lot of old-timers that open their own business are closed ; this is the way we do it, this is how it is, don't tell me anything new or anything of that sort. So working with him, he got to see maybe younger mind working and try to evolve and see what other avenues of business we could do. So back then, in mid-2000's, one of the things was he would always go to New York, New York, New York, that's where the fabric is imported, that's where everything came in. Well everything in real estate New York got super expensive. Everything start pushing out to Los Angeles. It was cheaper to import to Los Angeles. It was closer to the Orient, and that's where most of the fabric was milled and came from. So it only made sense: land's less expensive, the shipping is less expensive, the fabric the same cost, let's move out there and see what we can, what they can do. So a lot of people did that and somehow, I'm not exactly sure, but whether it was through somebody he knew and said 'hey, why don't you call so-so,' you know, and I formed a pretty good relationship with a gentleman out there. Their company is called Ben Textiles. And, you know, I was like, you know, well, why don't we see their fabric? You know, say we have our fabric but they have a lot of stuff that we don't have and people are calling us and I had to keep saying 'no, I don't have this,' 'no, I don't have this,' so I was like let's find it, let's serve these customers and see what we can do. So, you know, I started working with them. They would send us samples and, you know, we kind of formed that relationship and that kind of put our business to the next level a little bit. It was giving us a broader spectrum of different items that we were able to sell. And basically the more you can sell, the more you have access to in any business kinda helps you with the type of customer basis that you'll have and you're able to get out there. So that kind of pushed us to the next level of having more sources, you know, you always want sources, that's for sure, to be able to get more fabric. And so, you know, we started doing that, we still did our own inventory and on level to help our business grow with the sources, it's always about getting great quality fabric at low prices. You know, and that's kinda what I helped him to do too. He was always doing that, but we had to find better sources, we had to find better fabric, we had to find more of it, diverse to bring it in and that. So that's kinda started to push us into the next level. The Internet, as that evolved, you know, that kept helping us go. I was Internet, not Internet savvy, but I knew more about the Internet, you know, and that was a good push for us to be able to do that but that took, to get to that point I mean, that probably took another five, six . . . 5 years, I would say, until like we really pushed it because Internet is very expensive in order to create a legit website. Not these websites that say go on GoDaddy.com and get a website for $10. It doesn't really give you the presence out there if you're trying to sell to America, you know, and Canada and possibly Mexico and everything else. So that kind of propelled us to the next level. And we've kind of, you know, you never want to get stagnant just like kind of stay. You need to keep evolving, you need to keep changing. We've changed our website, you know, maybe four or five times and that's helped us grow and he still has a ton of input and I learn something from him probably every single day. And, you know, things that I might not think are good idea, he does, and, you know, we do them. And things that he doesn't think are a good idea, he lets me know them. You know, and that's kinda the great relationship that we formed, and like how we helped the business grow to where it is. GE: So at this point you were really truly an e-commerce business. MM: Yeah, I guess you would say in a way. Most likely I would say, you know, we worked out percentages, you know, when we first started the website we added a shopping cart then and that shopping cart, the sales we do on the shopping cart from day one which is seven years ago, you know, whatever that total probably, you know, now annually is probably a 10,000% more, you know, than we first started 10 years or seven years ago doing just the shopping cart. So that's how people find us all the time. Word-of-mouth people find us as well in the business for sure. So even if they're not online sales, people are calling us based on it, so yes that is a big portion. We do have our warehouse where it's open to the public and anybody can come in. So we get a lot of local people, we get customers that are traveling from out of state that want to come see us because we do send samples to everybody. Whoever wants to see a sample, we send them a sample for free, you know, we take care of that. But there's nothing like coming into a warehouse and seeing everything they have to offer. GE: So of your total sales, about what percentage at this point are come from the website, you know, that are e-commerce versus coming to your warehouse? MM: Um, of it's kind of tough to put an exact number on it only because the people coming to the warehouse could have found us through the site so I would, I mean if you had to put a number I would probably definitely say it's minuscule of people that are just local people that just saw the sign. You know you might say that's 5%, you know, and everything is 95% otherwise. If you did just total in-house sales, you know, that number might go up to 10 or to 15%, but those people probably found us through the website, one way or another. GE: So at this point your customer base, who you're selling your fabric to, really the Internet is essential. MM: Oh, yeah. The Internet goes down, our website goes down, it's, you know, there was a time, it was a couple months ago, and our website was down for say two days. While in that two days I can lose, you know, maybe $10,000 in sales. You know, I might, those might be customers that know there might be an issue and they might just wait, they might email me and order anyway, and there might be sales in there that somebody went to the website and it's not working and they just move on, and they'll never come back. So not only could that sale have been $500 but that $500 could have been another $500 next week, down the road, another month, could have been more, that company could have grown and could have helped us tremendously. So if you're not up, you're not present. You don't know what you're missing. GE: So now tell me a little bit about the industry. In other words, what competitors are there in this industry? Are there many people? Are there many wholesalers like you? MM: There's, in my opinion, there's a lot of wholesalers of fabric out there, that's for sure. In my opinion, like us--probably a handful. You know, the one thing is, you know, you have a group of friends wherever or people that you talk to, and this person might be in this industry in somebody else's ; I don't have anybody that is in my industry. Not one friend that's in fabric, never was, never thought about it. You know, back when I started, you know, we were talking off camera, I think I started at 24 and I was probably the youngest person in America selling fabric unless some child, you know, came right out of high school work for the father that I didn't know about. But when I would go out to LA in my early years to meet people and gain more contacts, when I would walk in the door and I told them who I was, they were like 'you're Marc?' You know, they thought I was 45, you know, and they see this kid walking in at 24, and they were just all shocked and they were like 'dude, you're young for this industry.' You know, it was a great thing because eventually, people, you know, you get older. They're gonna get out of it, and I'm still going to be present, and I'm gonna, you know, keep growing. We do a lot of different things than other wholesalers do. Our website is more prominent than most wholesale companies out there. There are other fabric websites but there's a lot of retail, there's not so much wholesale, which helps. You know, the random person will go online and find us. You know, there might be another fabric place if they really dug or made some phone calls, but nowadays it's how quick can I get it, how, and that's kinda where my dad came up with the name of Nick of Time Textiles, so that kind of worked in our favor. We do, I sell customers one yard of fabric, I sell customers 5000 yards of fabric, you know, we don't care. I'll sell, you want fabric, I'll sell it to you. Other people are like minimum 500 yards, you know, they don't want to deal with the small orders. Realistically, I could sell say five different fabrics 5 yards each and that order could take just as long as one of my guys doing 500 yards. And 500 yards could be a couple thousand dollar order. The 25 yard order could be $100. So it's not that the value is not there, but maybe this 5 yard customer turns into a 5000 yard customer. You know, we just always kinda, when the big customers aren't there, you know, all the little customers kinda make up into a big customer. We do bridal decorative goods, and we do apparel goods, and you know we sell to churches, and we sell to schools and, you know, like home sellers so when this industry isn't really doing much, and maybe that industry's down, then this industry is picking up so we like to do a little bit of everything. And other people are concentrated on their specialty item, but if that specialty item goes down the tube, your company is, you got to reinvent yourself, and fortunately, you know, we don't have to do that. We've gained a presence to where, you know, we don't, I came in and I was making calls, cold calling, calling people that my dad dealt with. I don't call anybody. Everybody calls us, which is fantastic, you know, so that helps us too. The other people in my industry they're, you know, if they're a wholesaler, they could be a broker, they don't own a lick of fabric. They sell everybody else's fabric, so sometimes I'll get from other wholesalers, I'll get five samples in and they're exactly the same. Everybody's the same ; they are selling off of one person's inventory and they're all just brokering the fabric and making you know five cents, ten cents, fifteen cents a yard. Our margins are greater, but we also have rent, we pay for the fabric, we have trucking, we have employees, we have insurance, you know, all the overhead that they don't have, so that's why our margins are larger but we still keep our prices extremely low compared to the market, for sure. SC: So, may I ask you, they used to talk about the benefits when we were in the industrial economy, you know the benefit of coming in... do you think this is the new world where you can sell on the Internet and that it is no longer beneficial as all your diverse patience and friendliness to make a smaller profit? MM: Um, you mean like-- GE: I think she means it gets the economy and scale through the Internet, that's how he gets much larger sales. MM: Yeah, so, yeah those people, the Internet brings all sizes, you know, but yeah it does help, you know, with the larger scales. You know it's just the e-commerce is has created such an opportunity just to touch everybody, you know, you really in this business you can only sell to who you can get to and who you can sit in front of and, you know, what you had to show them, which was a that was the way, that was a great way to do it, I guess, you know, everybody did then. And that's how a lot of, that's how some people still do it. I have people that joke in my warehouse who say 'hey I want to come in.' You know, they come in, they bring up suitcases, like four suitcases of all these different fabrics and start showing them to me: 'do you like this, you like this?' Personally I don't even like that. I don't even like when somebody's in front of me showing me 100 or 200 different fabrics that's just not, you know. One is typically, I don't buy a lot of stuff that way. Their prices are higher, depending on what they're repping. It works mostly upholstery people that are doing that type of traveling. I prefer just to kind of 'hey I need this, people, send me samples.' You know, it's just a lot easier that way. The website, you know, has brought us people that buy thousands of yards that helps. But we had one of our biggest customers and they slowed down this year to reconfigure some things, you know, it was Urban Outfitters, which is a big, you know, retailer. And my dad, you know, the only way to get into those companies is really somehow you just run into somebody. You meet somebody somehow and you get in and they want to use you, and as long as you make their life easy, you know, even if they could probably find the fabric a little bit cheaper, they'll use you. So they used us for many years, and they were a great customer for sure. And that was just kind of by association, that wasn't through the Internet and that can still happen, you know, you still can get those big sales without it, I just don't think it's as common or as easy. But to get those big ones, like an Urban or if you're going to do anybody else who, you know, say Levi's or anything like that, it would probably be a verbal 'I know this person, somebody.' Most likely people aren't going online trying to find fabric sources, so I would say. SC: So I guess what I was getting at: you could get in and out of the business much easier than well half the people. You have real estate and all that, and maybe I'm putting word in your mouth, do you think you could get in and out of the business, which is so much better in history, to be able to get in and out quickly and not to have-- MM: In and out to deal with the customer? SC: With everything. MM: Um-- GE: I think she's saying, moving because the way the business now has so much with the e-commerce, you're able to be much more nimble. SC: That's a great word nimble. GE: On both sides.. MM: Yeah, um, yeah I mean you definitely can be quick because, you know, a lot of the information is already out there so you can get to people quick, you can get to, you know, describe things quicker, you can show them things faster, yeah I mean it's... GE: And am I correct that one of your major competitive advantages is that you have a terrific site. It sounds like your competitors typically they don't have that. MM: Yeah so our site, I would say the advantage is the site. GE: Right. MM: There are things about the site, you know, there's all these different companies and I don't know anything from marketing on a website or the backend or how to create a website or anything like that. So you put all your eggs in a basket, and you hope that company does well for you. The company we use is very good at the behind the scenes, you know, where meaning for Internet savvy, it's organically searching, you know, it's people making us relative on the Internet world, you know, getting us out there so people see us in different spots. And they are very good at that. Designing a website you know maybe isn't their forte by any means, so that's the part that they're lacking, so we have to help but at the same time, you know, as my dad said, I get people that call me for recommendation for that company, and I say 'listen, they do things great, but it's still your company, so if you want to put everything in their hands and just say go do it, well they're only going to do so much. It's your company, you need to still work on it, you still need to give input, you need to come up with ideas, you need to stay on top of it if you want it to grow.' So we have to give them still ideas, but on the back end getting us out there, I mean they've done a fantastic job. There's something just recently that we started doing, well they started doing it for us, but we always talk and throw out ideas, is typically when you go on the Internet now and you search something, you know, whether you went to store to go buy something, you know, all of a sudden you're on your Facebook page and you see the ads come up. Well most likely that ad all the sudden you're like 'how is that ad there? I was on it on a different computer and now it somehow linked to my screen and now it's there.' Well I find that I go to Yahoo just as my open browser and the banner up top says Nick of Time Textiles you know on a Yahoo page. However, integrated that in to link to what your history is, is a great thing because I even talk to some customers who say 'whoever does this back end is great for you guys.' My wife was searching for this and she was on your fabric and then all of a sudden I was on my computer and it shows Nick of Time Textiles banner running up the side and you know the good thing is you just like to see people and trucks driving around with your name, you might not be looking for fabric at that point but all of a sudden you might be looking for it, six months later you might say 'wait, yeah is that Nick of Time,' or something like that. Type it in and it's easy to find. GE: So that does all of the search engine optimization. MM: Yeah, all of the optimization they do. They do a lot of our social media, they send out our different email programs where we can send email blasts about different specials were running, you know, we're are doing 20% off this weekend or we're giving $50 off the free shipping and we send it out to everybody, so all our customers, you know, every single day we have new customers, new people that call in, we get their contact information or email addresses, we add them to a list and we just send a mass list out. You know, it's just kind of an email blast, just like everyone gets some, like if you buy something at Nike, 'oh, we're having a sale this--' So basically we're kind of mirroring the same thing that bigger companies to do to kind of just keep our name out there. You know, some customers say 'take me off this list, if I need fabric, I will call you.' Other ones say, 'you know what? I hate when people send emails but I love getting your emails because it keeps me informed.' We send out emails when we get new fabrics and so people are aware of what's coming in, so you know it's helpful. Without them we would still be on ground zero, you know I would say. GE: So this is in regards to your customers. How about in regards to your suppliers? MM: So the suppliers: two things the website can help in ways because suppliers are also, they're obviously looking to sell. They don't want to sell to the people I want to sell to. They want to sell to people like me. So sometimes they'll go online and they'll find people. And they'll contact me and say 'hey,' you know, they'll call me up and say 'what do you, I see you sell this, this, and this, you know, we offer this. Let me send you some samples, let's talk about, you know.' And then we can start doing business that way. Another way that I guess would be a supplier of ours is actually our customers are also suppliers. In ways to where they do manufacturing, and we sell them a bunch fabric or maybe somebody sold them a bunch of fabric, and they have all this excess fabric and their lines over, they don't know what to do with it, and they go online say, 'I got to find somebody to sell this to.' So they go online and they find us, and I get emails all the time saying, 'hey, I am just curious, I found you online, do you guys buy fabric?' And obviously we buy fabric. We have to buy fabric to sell fabric. So we'll buy their leftover fabric. And that's how we're able to get, you know, they might've paid 5, 6, 7 dollars for it. They are creating their product, they have, you know, their margins set and all of their costs, but when they're done with it, that fabric is not worth 5, 6, 7 dollars, so they might sell it to us a dollar, fifty cents a yard and then we're just turning and selling it whether it's two dollars, three dollars, four dollars, depending on what type of fabric it is. And some people come to us and say, 'how are you selling this at this price?' Because they know what it costs to make. Well we're secondhand but then, you know, we're able to give it to, get it to people that can make the same type of products and have a better margin because they're getting in on the secondary market. So with the suppliers, you know, that's how they can use our website. But then we just have a separate list of all our suppliers and their emails. So people call me and say, you know, 'I wanted to--' We probably have over million yards of fabric right now. We have on the West Coast probably you know 40 different companies we can use that probably have millions and millions yards of fabric that we can sell off anytime we want and ship directly from them as if it's coming from us, so we're repping their line in a way but nobody knows about them. GE: So you're, in that case, you're not, you don't own it, you're a broker of it. MM: Yup, I'm a broker of it. But my, the way I detail it out is...cause there are some people that would just try to go around you as much as possible. And, you know, I've built those relationships so they cost me money in order to get to them. So basically I just stayed, you know, I have a storage facility in Los Angeles and, you know, we store some of our fabric that we import and I can ship it directly to you from there. And nobody questions. Typically nobody digs or anything like that. So with the suppliers we send..somebody calls me and says 'I need 500 yards of this.' I don't have it. The people I know out there don't have it. Maybe I deal with people in North Jersey too, they don't have it. We send it out to 4000 people on this email broadcast saying 'hey we're looking for 500 yards of white cotton, you know, twill, does anybody have it?' We get replies. People send us samples, I send it to the customer, they approve it and we broker it that way then. So that was a way that we grew our business because it gave us the ability to just supply people with larger amounts without having to spend the money on inventory of something that we didn't know was going to sell or not, which was nice. GE: So, um, so it sounds like, if I understand, over the past ten years that you've been actively in the business, from the beginning until now, it sounds like it has grown a lot. MM: Yeah, for sure. GE: And was that growing five times? Two times? MM: Probably, if sales wise, in sales it's gone, you know, if sales go up and down, it stays pretty consistent. Since I started, you know, at our highest point it grew 10 times and probably, you know, on an average, it's probably about seven times. So I mean it's tremendously, tremendous to where it was for sure. You know the great thing for that is definitely in the business we weren't, you know, fortunately for us were not like 'we got to pay x, we got to pay y.' You know, we're at a more financially stable place. That's not an issue, you know, at this point luckily for us, so, you know, we can buy fabric. We know, you know, 'hey, we don't know where these sales are coming from but, you know, on an average we're doing X amount, you know, every single week.' So as long as that's coming in and, you know, we're probably buying more fabric sometimes that we should but at the same time without new fabrics we can't keep new sales going selling old fabric you know we will sell it off at a lower price to gain, you know, more income bringing it in, more cash flow. But yeah, with the employees, and I have to hire somebody else in the warehouse now to help out, so yeah I mean it's gotten to a point, you know, my father always says, 'well you know this is your business, this is your business.' And he was always like that and, you know, a couple years ago we were like we're going to do 50%, and just gave me 50%. You know, it's not that maybe I didn't earn it, which I probably did, but at the same time it's his business. He doesn't owe me, you know, anything from it. So he gave me 50% of the company, but always in his mind he said 'I'll give you 100% if it made sense' but financially it made sense for him to be a 50 partner and for me to be 50. And, you know, it's just, he was always it's your business, it's your business, I just work for you. And he just wants it to grow and for me to be able to provide for me and my family to what it can be. You know, this business can be 10 times what we are now if we could do this and do this. And I say, 'yeah you know I understand that, you know, and that's nice and some people have this strived to you know have the biggest business they can possibly have, which I want to have a profitable business.' I want to have a good business, but I also want to have my family, my life. And I talked to older people in our business and all you know says, 'oh, you know, you're this or whatever.' Sometimes they're like, 'I couldn't get a hold of you last night.' And I was like 'yeah, you know, it was last night, call me during the day.' You know, my friends are like 'you're the only business owner that doesn't answer his phone after 6 o'clock.' I'm like what do you want, you know, I'm at home, I need to enjoy myself. I take vacation, and my dad thinks I take too much vacation. I tell him, you're living in the old times, you don't even realize how much vacation days people get nowadays out in the workforce. I don't even get that much and I'm a business owner. And he says you are a business owner so that's why you don't get that much because it's your business. But when I go away, I go away as much as possible. I try not to stay in contact with the business cause you need that time away, but what that helps, and it helps him, and I have seen him do this, is when you step away, you're not thinking about it. You're thinking about it a little in the back of your head, and you're kind of innovating a little bit, thinking of new ways to do things because you got to step away and you started thinking about it. GE: So Marc, where sales have gone up about seven times over the last ten years, how about, what about the profit, bottomline? Cause I realize you also hold a lot of more expenses and things and whatever. MM: Yeah I mean the expenses are a lot more compared to what they are but I mean... GE: Right, but that's commensurate with the sales. MM: Yeah, I mean, most businesses are going to be like that. I mean I would love to have a business model that my business sales grew seven times and my expenses stayed the same. I mean that would be fantastic. You know, for our business that's not the case and, you know, I would say well when I was younger I would say I wouldn't need as much money, you know, to live. And having a family now, fortunately, you know, my wife doesn't have to work. You know, she's at home. She does work part time, you know, once she is back from having the baby, and that's kinda just for her presence of mind. So, you know, financially bottom line, you know, it could be, it could be three times, you know, maybe. Maybe up to four, I don't know hundred percent on the mark but just because of the added expenses of everything else that goes up, it does mean more profit, but we sink a lot of our profit back into the business because, you know, I do do investments in retirement stuff but my dollar, you know, in my business can make me, you know, say that dollar can make me 400%. Well go show me something in the market that's going to make me 400%. It doesn't exist. So, you know, if I took into account everything that we made, yes, you know, it would probably be a lot more than that but everything we have to put back into the business on a daily, you know, business day takes away from that. But at the end, you know, we had at one time we might have had you know 150,000 yards of fabric, and then we might have had 300,000 yards. And we had one of the ladies just doing inventory just real quick nothing exact just goes through all of our headers and I told my dad what I thought we had and he came back and he's like 'we have over 1 million yards' and I said 'yeah, I know.' You know, so that helps our business value and gives us, you know, everything's paid for. We buy stuff, we paid it off within 30 to 60 days, so basically everything that's in there, we own, which is a great thing because if say we hit a hard time and we're like 'okay we can't buy any more fabric.' Well I have 1 million yards of fabric to sell so if I can just bite the bullet for three months and I wouldn't have $80,000 in bills, well, after three months I would have a nice you know bank account to go start buying again and start the business up and it wouldn't take that long, which is good. GE: So I'm curious, years ago for most of the older people that we have interviewed, there was a dominance, there was a pretty large presence of Jewish people in the business. A lot of Italians, a lot of other people, but certainly, given how small the population is, there had to be a large percentage of Jewish people. Is that because, I don't know, we have not interviewed a lot of people who currently have a business, is that still the case? MM: Yeah, uh, 99%. GE: Ok, wow. MM: You know, where did that come from-- GE: I was going to ask you, what do you think might be any reasons for that? MM: Uh, I don't know, I think, you know, I just I think it was something from back in the day, you know, over whether it was in Israel or Iran, you know cause there are a lot of Iranian Jews, you know, that have come over that were in the fabric industry. I think there was a big fabric hub, you know, back in the day like over there and when everyone came, everybody, you know, migrated over here it kind of followed them and that was what they knew, you know, so you tend to have into whether it was the Jewish over here or Irish over here or you know Italians over here. Everybody for certain, it might have started in other industries, starting to diverse itself, for some reason in this industry it's not and I don't know why. Everybody I deal with is Jewish basically. I don't think there's one, there might be maybe one or two people, you know, that I buy fabric from that are not Jewish by any means. GE: Interesting. MM: Yeah I think it's just it just was part of the culture. And I think people stuck to it. It's what, you know, what they knew and that's what they did. So it is interesting when you hear that, but it's definitely an industry that there's, the only way you're getting in this industry most likely is through your family. Nobody I don't even know if there's a course for college, you know, that's called fabric wholesaler, you know, where you can learn to sell fabric. There is manufacturing, you know, sewing, you know, getting into that, running your business, being a designer. There's a lot of that, fashion institutions, stuff of that sort. But everybody I know that's in it and that's younger that it's just through family, and I like just, it keeps, it's like a revolving door. I think that's why. SC: So I have two just sort of thought questions that I'd like to ask you. What has made you feel the most creative in your life? MM: Um, the most creative, um, hm, I mean I, you know, probably my parents. You know just, you know, the openness of letting me do things, you know, and then in business with my father, you know, letting me take control as a young person. Being, you know, getting ideas and seeing them and then learning and being able to open up and kind of venture into my own things, you know, they never, they never pushed me and said 'you need to go to this.' You know, I got tons of friends and families say, 'well you need to go to nursing school, or you need to do this.' You know, I was never pushed in any direction, but I was backed a hundred percent no matter where I went, so that's what I would say. SC: And what do you value most in life? MM: Um, it would, I mean, there's a, you know, family obviously is very important, you know, and I think a lot of people would say that off the bat. You know, I definitely value that, you know, especially now that I'm having two kids. You know, it's I think I also whether it's not just, you know, the family, it's your surroundings and everybody. Doing the right thing, you know, being good to people that you don't even know. You know, I find it comforting, you know, something simple as, you know, I'm walking into Wegmans and, you know, somebody that, say somebody is in the handicap spot, they just unloaded their carts and they are looking around, it's like just say, 'hey, I'll take your cart for you, I'll put it up.' I value that type of stuff. Those type of people that their faces isn't just forward, you know, looking at their day, they're looking at their surroundings, you know, looking to help others, you know, if they can, you know, as much as possible, you know, I value, you know, so it's that. It's family, it's that, and, you know, I value experiences, you know, in life whether it's traveling to different areas or meeting new people, you know, listening you know to other people, to hear about how things were and then, you know, being able to relate that to my life and move forward. So, you know, I would say those things are pretty important, yeah. And then, you know, obviously like I said, family is, I was raised that family is number one, you know, sometimes too much, you know, sometimes it's too much push, but, you know, as I said, you know, before it's like you don't know until, you know, you're in your 20s. You don't know until you get married, you don't know until you have kids. And now, it's the same thing when my parents say well you don't know until you have grandkids, you know, because I'm like well you don't, we need to do this with them, and they're like when you have a grandkid you'll see. You don't care what parents say, you do what you want to do and that's that. You know so it's that's why it always comes back to family and, you know, value and learning, and, you know, being able to experience things together, I would say. VIDEO ENDS HERE GE: So Marc is going to give us a little guided tour of the Nick of Time Textiles website. MM: Yeah, so we just actually, this is a new format that we have that basically we just changed probably a month ago. It's probably like our fourth or fifth change. Basically what we implemented two changes ago was something called a heat map, so when somebody comes to the website, they are able to track each user every time somebody signs on and they can track where their mouse goes, where they scroll to, what they look at. And what that enables us to do is to see what's commonly clicked on, where do people go, so then we can bring that stuff up to the top so they can see it right away once they sign on. Move some stuff down below, change wordings. You know, put different, maybe they're looking for our contact information, we always had it up here, but we also had a lot of other stuff up here. It could have been too much, maybe they were missing it, maybe they were looking for it somewhere else. So basically, you know, we change where, you know, the coupon is, you know, we wanted to put it up top easily visible. When we run more than one coupon, this just slides over. We have a couple different ones, so people can always see what they're doing. You know, dealing with now, you know, with the Internet and social media, you know, we have, you know, whether it's Facebook, whether it's Twitter, Pinterest, and then you know the Google Plus for keywords and ad-words. So basically it kind of just gives you the availability to browse our website pretty easily. As you go down, it tells you, you know, the stuff that's maybe the most popular, stuff whether that we sell a lot of or we have a lot to offer to customers. So we always have the main categories, two fabric categories that are split up between the knitted and the woven, those are the main categories in the industry and everything kind of falls under one or another and then we just pick out the ones that we sell the most of that people come to our website for the most common things, I would say. So we also, up here, we have a search engine. It's tough to get a really good search engine, but mainly we use this whether for style numbers that we have our fabrics and go right to them or, you know, if I just type in, you know, you type in the style number and then you want to find it real quick, you know, you just hit go and it just pops up everything that comes under that style number. And then, you know, this is kind of the generic way to look at it, doesn't give you all the information until you click on one of those, but if you go under knitted, this is like all the different categories that we'll have that's all broken down, shows you some fabric that might be included in there that you can, you know, look at and sell. It gives you a preview. And then once you click, it could be subcategories as well, so you don't lose, if you are looking for solids you don't have to go through all of the stripes to get the solids. And then once you get to it, it will kind of give you the prices, breakdowns, style numbers. You can order free samples on the website. You can just add it right to your cart, and you can just continue shopping to add more. If you go into it specifically, it will give you descriptions, it will tell you if it's in stock, if there are any customer reviews on a product that will tell you there. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:09:23
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marc Malkovsky, June 1, 2017
Description
An account of the resource
Marc Malkovsky talks about helping his dad cut samples in the basement for the business while Marc was still in high school. A few years after college, Marc joined his father in the business. Together, they embraced the Internet and incrementally built an e-commerce site for the business. Nick of Time is a current, thriving Allentown business.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LVTNT-20
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-06-01
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.
-
https://textile.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/2600524917cc9eb3acb3fd5f2a8d2047.png
4cfcef95c71dd3843ba8a929b4d93b3a
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mark Fogelman
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-21.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 October 12, 2013 Mark Fogelman, October 12, 2013 LVTNT-21 1:04:24 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Mark Fogelman Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 FogelmanMark_20131012 1.0:|23(3)|48(11)|79(7)|100(13)|129(2)|150(11)|181(3)|204(8)|227(8)|248(12)|275(10)|302(2)|329(7)|348(17)|367(5)|390(14)|421(4)|446(15)|469(16)|490(4)|511(6)|534(7)|557(10)|582(2)|607(3)|634(6)|661(9)|686(2)|711(8)|736(3)|759(7)|780(14)|785(18)|806(7)|831(8)|856(9)|881(15)|904(6)|929(6)|954(14)|977(11)|1002(8)|1031(8)|1054(6)|1075(6)|1090(13)|1115(11)|1134(15)|1155(17)|1174(9)|1197(2)|1214(13)|1233(13)|1250(13)|1277(15)|1310(11)|1335(9)|1354(4)|1379(6)|1394(16)|1415(12)|1430(10)|1445(15)|1464(13)|1473(10) 0 https://youtu.be/eCjQQ5rEc58 YouTube video 0 Mark's Background SC: Today is October 12, 2013, and our interview is, let’s just leave it at that for now. This is tape one. This might seem somewhat redundant because we have interviewed your mom and your aunt. It’s good to get different viewpoints, then they sort of melt together and you have confirmation with certain issues. If you could tell me your full name and your birth date to start with. This is going to be more question and answer right at the beginning.
 ; 
 ; MF: Mark Charles Fogelman and my birthday is January 18, 1960.
 ; 
 ; SC: Where were you born and where have you lived?
 ; 
 ; MF: I was born here in Allentown, Pennsylvania. 0 216 Education SC: Can you talk about your education - going back to the beginning?
 ; 
 ; MF: First I went to Nursery School at the JCC. I went to the Jewish Day School from Kindergarten to sixth grade, then went on to Trexler Middle School and then William Allen High School. I went to Penn State, didn’t really know what I wanted to do, but as a hobby with friends, we used to make movies in the back yard with a Super 8 camera – make little stories, we had fun with that. I got on the radio station at Penn State – just doing the news. I really enjoyed that whole thing. I thought maybe I’d go into TV and film, but they only had two courses at the time. They really had no facilities back in ’78. I started looking around – I looked at Boston, I looked at different areas. Then I looked at Temple – they really had the best program for me where you could right away get into the program – start making movies and video shows. Other colleges wanted another year of math and science, so I transferred to Temple – and I wanted a big city, too - rather than being in the middle of nowhere. 
 ; 
 ; SC: What was your major at Penn State?
 ; 
 ; MF: Liberal Arts – a little bit of everything. 0 499 Mark's Entry into the Business SC: Did you take over the business and your dad retired?
 ; 
 ; MF: No, I started out at the bottom. When I came in, it was tough, because I had a pretty good position with Merv Griffin and now I’m back to basically my “summer job” of weighing bundles of scrap in a dirty warehouse and unloading trucks of 100 lbs. rolls of fabric and into the basement. It was good – a good experience, it reminded me of what it takes. And, it was a much bigger business, too, then when I was a kid. It was spread out among more buildings. When I started out, we had our two original buildings but shortly after we bought two more buildings in town – just to handle the workload. 0 567 Origins of the Family Business SC: We’ve gone through all of that - the family history - could you talk a little bit about your family history? We got it from your mom and aunt, but it’s good to have independent confirmation and maybe you have some other memories.
 ; 
 ; MF: They probably have more than I do. My grandfather started it. He was a tailor first, and I don’t know how he grew it and made it bigger. I know one funny story – once he decided to become more of a manufacturer rather than a tailor, he would go into New York for whatever client (I don’t know who it was) and in those days, they would cut the work for you – you know how the work is made – spread out on a table and you cut it into “lots” maybe there is a 1,000 pieces in a lot – maybe shirts or pants and different parts that you are going to have to sew together. He would go to his client and they would say, “okay, take lot number 7” so he would grab lot number 7 and half of number 8 and stick it in his truck. Then they would call him and say, “Do you know you took half of number 8?” He’d say, “Oh, I’m sorry, come and get the other half.” It was a way to get more work for yourself. Everybody has little tricks you have to try to pull. I always liked that story. 0 726 More About the Business SC: Okay, maybe we should move on to business.
 ; 
 ; GE: You already gave us a little history, your mom and aunts gave us a little history. They went with Alfred Dunner – and this is what year?
 ; 
 ; MF: Alfred Dunner was always a client – a very small client – that my grandmother on my dad’s side actually met and that’s how that started - how we got hooked up as a client. I don’t know if you heard that story. I’m surprised my mom didn’t tell you that.
 ; 
 ; GE: No, no.
 ; 
 ; MF: My grandmother was at a party in New Jersey.
 ; 
 ; GE: And, that’s your paternal grandmother?
 ; 
 ; MF: Yes - my dad’s mother. All of the Aresty family that now owns Alfred Dunner lives in New Jersey. 0 1365 Overseas Competition GE: So after 9-11-2001 – they began using other factories.
 ; 
 ; MF: Right – overseas, not locally. They were testing China and Mexico and at the time, their quality wasn’t as good as ours, but pretty quickly, they became even better than us - real fast. And they would come to us and say, “Look what they’re doing there.” Because our machines are old and they are getting new machines and they have all these wheels that make nice little creases, so I had to buy new wheels – little things. It didn’t take much to fix, but we were always chasing that a little bit.
 ; 
 ; GE: People were making fabric, as they were going overseas, was that making it difficult for you to get fabric at a competitive rate? 
 ; 
 ; MF: Well, they bought the fabric for us. It really made it difficult for them. 0 1476 Local Producers GE: But, you didn’t make the tops?
 ; 
 ; MF: Other people made the tops. They would ask us who could make things. I know the Barson’s…I don’t know if you know the Barson Family. “Barsew” - my friend, Randy Barson - his brother was running the factory – his mother is still alive down in Florida.
 ; 
 ; GE: And this is also a local family?
 ; 
 ; MF: In Lehighton.
 ; 
 ; SC: How do you spell that?
 ; 
 ; MF: B-A-R-S-O-N and it was called Barsew. 0 1800 Union Information MF: Oh yes, they were easy, and that’s what the worker’s liked. Don’t forget they are piece rate union workers. The easier it can be to make them, the better. It got to the point where the workers would complain that, “Oh, I got larger sizes than you.” Because large sizes are more to sew – by a few more inches and more to handle and actually we did sometimes pay more, a little more, on the larger sizes. We would have to keep books on each size each person got – it got ridiculous, but we would do it because the Union would say, “you’re giving her more large sizes.” It never failed, when you looked it up – they actually had less large sizes than the person next to them. 0 1874 Relationship with Workers GE: Share with us a little bit the relationship – how large was your management group – who were the workers? What were the relationships like? Was there any tension?
 ; 
 ; MF: Like anything - really– there is always a few bad apples. Everyone else was great, and there are always trouble makers. There are some people who enjoy coming to work to make trouble and complain. I don’t understand it, I never will – so that’s what you had. Everyone was happy and content and some were exceptional. At the peak we had about 40-50 non-union workers. That would be staff, mechanics and floor people and the rest - about 380 union people. In the end we had about 200 union people and about 25-30 non-union people. 0 1936 Last Years of the Business GE: How were those last 7 or 8 years - morale-wise- when everything was on the decline?
 ; 
 ; MF: When it was on the decline, I knew right away I had to get government work – right away. There was a law at the time - it was called the Berry Amendment – which was a law for the military, they have to make it in the United States. I managed, through meeting people and getting the word out – we got a small order as a subcontractor to make the Army combat pants – the old style, the camouflage pants from an outfit out in Connecticut. We were doing really well with that, and he just stopped paying us, so we stopped shipping. We were making them, but we held on because he wasn’t paying. Finally he folded, or something happened. We had a lot of pants – like 200,000 pants that we never got paid for. 0 2693 How Has the Lehigh Valley Been Affected by the Decline of the Textile and Needle-Trade Industry GE: Just a couple of questions. How do you think this area here has been affected? This was a very thriving textile area and now there’s really none.
 ; 
 ; MF: I don’t think the area really notices it because other things take its place. My biggest concern with the whole country is that we don’t make things here anymore. That’s a big danger. We build casinos – so what is that? That’s money spiraling down the toilet. That’s not new money coming in from another country or other people. That’s our own money going into different pockets. We don’t make anything anymore. We are all about the service industry. 0 2857 Economic Colony SC: Do you think we are becoming an economic colony of other countries in some ways?
 ; 
 ; MF: We are, but I think there’s nothing wrong with that. The whole world is getting smaller – everything is going to the cheapest country. Even China now – because I spoke to the President of Alfred Dunner – maybe last year and said, “How are things going?” He said , “guess what – China and Central America are too expensive now – we are in Bangladesh and Cambodia now.” Where do you go next - to the moon? Eventually you run out of countries. The good news is that it may be more level – as long as countries are doing things to make it more level then it’s a function of are our oil prices so high that it makes no sense – then it’s like little things that you are deciding about. 0 3017 Jewish Community GE: And in terms of the local community, other things took its place and like you said, you think it’s unfortunate that we have less manufacturing here. How about in terms of the Jewish community? Forty/fifty years ago there was this thriving community that was often owners of these different factories and much of that has gone away. What do you think the impact has been on the Jewish community here?
 ; 
 ; MF: It must have impacted it in some ways. I don’t know what replaced that profession, but you had that group of families that not only had a good business or struggled with their business, but they gave back to the community a lot. Maybe you lose some of that. Being able to fundraise to build a new JCC or a new Temple might be a lot harder because you might not have the families – that there are some families that their wealth was so great that they passed down to the generations, and they are still giving to the community. 0 3311 Diversity of Workers GE: How about your work force? Mostly women?
 ; 
 ; MF: Mostly women.
 ; 
 ; GE: What ethnicity were they?
 ; 
 ; MF: Mostly Pennsylvania Dutch. Probably more than any other factory, we had Pennsylvania Dutch women from the Northampton area. When I moved over by the Airport, I made sure it was close enough so that they could all make it. Then all the new people were coming from other countries. We actually found people through the Catholic Charities Group. They would find people from all over the world, so we had people from all walks of life. 0 3515 Mark Fogelman's Values and Creative Inspirations SC: Actually three final questions. What did your family value most in life and what did you value? These are my film questions.
 ; 
 ; MF: To have family all around and have your health – that your family is all doing well.
 ; 
 ; GE: Would you say that’s both your family’s values as well as your own?
 ; 
 ; MF: I would hope so, yes. They may think differently.
 ; 
 ; SC: And how were they connected to the wider community? 0 3600 Candidate Obama Comes to Tama Manufacturing GE: Now this is 2008.
 ; 
 ; MF: 2008, so he was just running for President.
 ; 
 ; SC: Oh Wow, can you put this up? We can scan that.
 ; 
 ; MF: If you google Obama visits Tama Manufacturing, you’ll have a lot of pictures. I have a bunch I can send you because there was a whole bus of press there – Time Magazine, CNN. I was on Wolf Blitzer – the Wall – there was a picture of me, Obama and one of my workers.
 ; 
 ; GE: Tell us about it.
 ; 
 ; MF: What happened was – the Union lady called me on Sunday. She said, “Do you mind if we bring Obama in on Tuesday- which was April 1 - for a tour?” 0 MovingImage Mark Fogelman talks about how he returned to the family business after spending close to ten years working in the Television business in California, notably as a production manager with Merv Griffin Productions. Around 1990, Tama Manufacturing began exclusively sewing pants for the manufacturer, Alfred Dunner. Fortunately, purchases of the Alfred Dunner brand grew rapidly during this time period. At its peak, Tama Manufacturing employed close to 400 people and used twelve subcontractors to meet Alfred Dunner’s needs. Alfred Dunner continued their relationship with Tama Manufacturing until 2009. Interview with Mark Fogelman, October 12, 2013 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is October 12, 2013, and our interview is, let's just leave it at that for now. This is tape one. This might seem somewhat redundant because we have interviewed your mom and your aunt. It's good to get different viewpoints, then they sort of melt together and you have confirmation with certain issues. If you could tell me your full name and your birth date to start with. This is going to be more question and answer right at the beginning. MARK FOGELMAN: Mark Charles Fogelman and my birthday is January 18, 1960. SC: Where were you born and where have you lived? MF: I was born here in Allentown, Pennsylvania. SC: What address? MF: 2434 Livingston Street, that's where I lived most of the time. I went to college, first at Penn State and then transferred to Temple. I studied television -- worked in television locally for Service Electric Cable, Channel 69 -- I was a cameraman. Then I moved to Los Angeles in 1983 and quickly got a job with Merv Griffin Productions, and I was there for seven years -- until 1990. I was production manager for the game shows and in development of new game shows. SC: And how about after that? Did you work any other place before you went into the garment industry? MF: When I was in high school, I wanted to get my pilot's license, so I worked at Bamberger's - which became Macy's, then I worked at Hess's. Then for a while I worked at both -- selling shoes at Bamberger's and men's sportswear (on the first floor) at Hess's. SC: As far as Hess's was concerned, what did you think about Hess's? This is self-interest -- I teach consumerism. MF: I thought it was great! What happened was, I was working at Bamberger's and my best friend at the time was Steve Greenberg, and his father was President of Hess's. He heard I was working at Bamberger's - selling shoes, which was actually his first job -- selling shoes. He said, "You can't work at Bamberger's -- you have to work at Hess's." I went in and, of course, I got hired. For a little while, I worked at both because it just worked out that I could work in the morning at Bamberger's and at Hess's in the afternoon. After a month, I just went to Hess's. When they opened up Plymouth Meeting Mall -- they opened up a store there -- and I was going to Temple, so it was easy for me to go work at that store. I enjoyed working there. SC: Did you take it to the end? Working there? MF: No, why I stopped was -- I was commuting for a while in the summer -- I was living in Allentown, commuting to Plymouth Meeting and one night coming back from the turnpike, I fell asleep driving. I went up a hill and rolled down the hill, landed upside down and totaled my car -- luckily I wasn't hurt. I just couldn't do the drive anymore. In fact, the store manager came to my house because I was the number one guy opening up new credit cards. You got a dollar for every new credit card you opened up -- nobody had one down there -- it was like a gold mine. He came to my house with $200.00 worth of "Lucky Bucks" (you could spend in the store) and he asked me if I would come back to work and I said I can't . It was just too much. That's when I stopped working at Hess's. SC: Can you talk about your education - going back to the beginning? MF: First I went to Nursery School at the JCC. I went to the Jewish Day School from Kindergarten to sixth grade, then went on to Trexler Middle School and then William Allen High School. I went to Penn State, didn't really know what I wanted to do, but as a hobby with friends, we used to make movies in the back yard with a Super 8 camera -- make little stories, we had fun with that. I got on the radio station at Penn State -- just doing the news. I really enjoyed that whole thing. I thought maybe I'd go into TV and film, but they only had two courses at the time. They really had no facilities back in '78. I started looking around -- I looked at Boston, I looked at different areas. Then I looked at Temple -- they really had the best program for me where you could right away get into the program -- start making movies and video shows. Other colleges wanted another year of math and science, so I transferred to Temple -- and I wanted a big city, too - rather than being in the middle of nowhere. SC: What was your major at Penn State? MF: Liberal Arts -- a little bit of everything. SC: That's wonderful -- we always think. After you went out to the west coast and then came back here. Can you talk a little bit about how you became involved in the textile business -- in one of the last textile businesses? MF: Growing up, there would be occasional summers when I'd help out at the factory in the summer -- doing odd jobs, usually the dirtiest jobs, and I hated it. Even when I lived in California, I would have nightmares that I was working in the factory. I would wake up -- Oh My God! It was like taking the drive to the factory, I'd wake up - Thank God I'm in California. I told you the story. I got married and had a baby and my wife at the time needed to do a residency so it worked out perfectly that she could get into Lehigh Valley Hospital. She could have got into USC, but it was all like gunshot wounds and carrying blood and it wasn't really educational she thought -- then she went to Lehigh Valley. I thought I'll work in television in New York -- an hour and a half, two hour drive. I had a job all lined up, and I went in for the interview and I just couldn't do it -- because the drive was terrible - got stuck in the tunnel, got hit by a cab. For a couple months, I didn't do anything . . . thought what should I do? Then I thought I really should get into our family business -- it was growing every year at this time. It had been growing 10-20% every year -- just getting bigger and bigger, so I thought I'd just do that. GAIL EISENBERG: What time was this? MF: 1990. It was really growing -- I don't know if my mom told you the story -- my dad was actually going to retire -- did she tell you that whole thing? SC: Go ahead, tell us again. It's good to have it from both viewpoints. MF: '82-'83 -- the factory was not really doing that well at all. It couldn't really support two families, so my dad thought he would retire and become a travel agent, because he actually enjoyed that. He actually retired, had a going-away party. He had an office already picked out in Northampton -- nearby. He was going to work in someone's office, but he never signed any final papers that he was not part of the business. A couple weeks later, my uncle died of a heart attack at age 43. So, my dad had to come back into the business. Shortly thereafter, Alfred Dunner asked if - I think Alfred Dunner and Liz Clairborne were two big clients- both clients wanted them to be exclusive. But it still wasn't a ton of work. So they thought well, Alfred Dunner is easier to make -- there was not too much science behind it. You couldn't tell if you were making money or losing money on which garment -- they weren't too engineered at that point. They went with Alfred Dunner and that was a good move because Liz Clairborne, two years later, took everything overseas and Alfred Dunner stuck by us until 2009. And it kept growing by 10-20% every year. With the economy and what people were buying, for whatever, it kept growing and growing. SC: Did you take over the business and your dad retired? MF: No, I started out at the bottom. When I came in, it was tough, because I had a pretty good position with Merv Griffin and now I'm back to basically my "summer job" of weighing bundles of scrap in a dirty warehouse and unloading trucks of 100 lbs. rolls of fabric and into the basement. It was good -- a good experience, it reminded me of what it takes. And, it was a much bigger business, too, then when I was a kid. It was spread out among more buildings. When I started out, we had our two original buildings but shortly after we bought two more buildings in town -- just to handle the workload. We had trucks going between five different buildings, plus we had subcontractors. At the peak, we had twelve subcontractors. We were up to 385 of our own people, but it really took 1200 people to do the work that we had. So twelve different factories all over the area, some in western Pennsylvania, some in NYC -- all over the place. SC: We've gone through all of that - the family history - could you talk a little bit about your family history? We got it from your mom and aunt, but it's good to have independent confirmation and maybe you have some other memories. MF: They probably have more than I do. My grandfather started it. He was a tailor first, and I don't know how he grew it and made it bigger. I know one funny story -- once he decided to become more of a manufacturer rather than a tailor, he would go into New York for whatever client (I don't know who it was) and in those days, they would cut the work for you -- you know how the work is made -- spread out on a table and you cut it into "lots" maybe there is a 1,000 pieces in a lot -- maybe shirts or pants and different parts that you are going to have to sew together. He would go to his client and they would say, "okay, take lot number 7" so he would grab lot number 7 and half of number 8 and stick it in his truck. Then they would call him and say, "Do you know you took half of number 8?" He'd say, "Oh, I'm sorry, come and get the other half." It was a way to get more work for yourself. Everybody has little tricks you have to try to pull. I always liked that story. SC: I hadn't heard that one. MF: Yes, that was a good one! Everybody has little things that you do to get more work. So he started it, then my dad married my mom, and I think he was doing roofing or selling siding like Tin Men -- you know the movie Tin Men? That was what he was doing, he hated it, so he started working at the factory. Years later my uncle married my aunt, and then he got involved in the business and the two of them were partners, and my grandfather was involved. Probably in the '60's my grandfather was becoming less and less involved. Even as a kid, I don't remember him being there all the time. Once the two sons knew what they were doing, he kind of backed off. He even came in probably once a week or every other week -- not when I was working there because he had passed away right before. In the summers when I was a kid -- he would come in just to press his pants and probably to look around. He'd come in and say hello to everybody. SC: Any other anecdotes that you remember before we get into the nuts and bolts of the business history? MF: Not that I can think of. SC: Okay, maybe we should move on to business. GE: You already gave us a little history, your mom and aunts gave us a little history. They went with Alfred Dunner -- and this is what year? MF: Alfred Dunner was always a client -- a very small client -- that my grandmother on my dad's side actually met and that's how that started - how we got hooked up as a client. I don't know if you heard that story. I'm surprised my mom didn't tell you that. GE: No, no. MF: My grandmother was at a party in New Jersey. GE: And, that's your paternal grandmother? MF: Yes - my dad's mother. All of the Aresty family that now owns Alfred Dunner lives in New Jersey. SC: Would you spell the name? MF: A-R-E-S-T-Y. The story there was that there was a real person named Afred Dunner -- a designer and he had a partner. I don't remember the name, but I want to say it was like Wexler -- something like that. Alfred Dunner was the designer and Wexler was more like the salesperson connected to (I think) it was Macy's. You need to have a buyer before you make anything. You have to have an "in" at the store -- even today. The two of them were partners and within a year or two, Alfred Dunner was in a car accident and killed. So, the Wexler brought in Joe Aresty, who was a buyer from Macy's -- pretty high up, but he was a buyer. The two of them thought they'll try to make this go and a year or two later, this Wexler was in a car accident and died. So now it's Aresty, and he brought in his brothers. Joe was always in charge of sales. The one brother was in charge of distribution to make sure things got delivered and the other brother in charge of production. Joe was the oldest brother, he is the only one still alive today. One actually got killed in a car accident -- but lived to be eighty something and the other brother, who we dealt with the most in production -- he was in production, he had cancer, but I think he was like eighty when it got him. The story that I heard is that when they were struggling and couldn't pay all their bills -- and couldn't pay us -- we carried them. We said, "Don't worry about it." The three brothers, they always remembered that we helped them get started. They were very loyal and even when the smarter move would have been to go overseas twenty years earlier, they said, "No, we're sticking with you guys." In fact, in 1996, we were in five different buildings in Northampton, and they had recently been in three buildings and consolidated into one giant warehouse. They found that they saved a lot of money -- efficiencies and all that stuff. They insisted that we do the same thing -- even though it didn't make sense on our end. But, that's what they wanted and that's what we had to do. We went into one big building and I said, "Instead of doing that, why don't we open up a factory in the Dominican Republic or Mexico?" He said, "No you like living in Allentown, we like living in New Jersey -- open it up in Allentown." So pretty much they stuck with us until he died (I can't believe I can't remember his name), then the next generation, that was my age --they had no attachment. They pretty much waited until he died, then they pulled the rug. GE: And that happened in 2009? MF: Yes. GE: So you started with them -- what year was it? MF: Probably in the '60s as a small company. Then in '83 we were really dedicated to just them. GE: Right, they became your exclusive. MF: Which was a risky move, but it worked out. GE: From 1983 to 2009 and this was a growing business. MF: Growing until 9-11. At 9-11 - BOOM - it started going down. GE: Oh, interesting. SC: Do you remember the addresses of the building in Northampton and in Allentown? MF: The main one in Northampton was 1798 Main Street and there were some other buildings before -- smaller, but we eventually ended up at 1798 Main Street. Then we also had a few buildings on Center Street -- a former IGA supermarket, which people in Northampton know, and that was 2006 Center Street. GE: Does your family still own any of these buildings? MF: Yes. Do you know Northampton at all? GE: I know the Roxy. MF: Right behind the Roxy those are all ours. And, our factory is still there -- it's vacant -- we sold it to a guy- he was going to make apartments -- he hasn't done anything with it yet. Tanczos Beer is there and right next door is R& ; S Printers (it was known as at the time) - but now it's Julia Harhart, the Representative, is there and Dr. Ofrichter -- you might know -- he's a tenant in there, and Tenzio's Warehouse [?] -- they do air brakes and fix your trucks. Then 2048 Center -- was like a little house -- that was our pattern making place -- over the years it was a steak and sandwich shop and many other things over the years. Those three buildings, I turned into commercial real estate. They're all fully rented. SC: That would be interesting for the history to take pictures of it. MF: Before and after - I might have that somewhere. I have to look. I might even have the "before" -- what it looked like -- as the supermarket and how we used it - then how we fixed it up. I really made the walls taller -- with a clock tower -- like a little strip center. GE: If you have any of that - that would be great! MF: I'll make a list of things. GE: I think you were most recently sharing with us the story of Alfred Dunner. You were their sole manufacturer. Is that correct? MF: Yes, from '83. It started way back - my father's grandmother was at a party in Dover, New Jersey and happened to talk to Joe Aresty or this Wexler at the time. You talk and say, "What do you do?" "Oh, I'm in the garment business." And she said, "Well, my son has a factory." So they tried him out and that's what started the whole thing. GE: Your understanding is that whenever they ran into difficulties in the 60's and 70's -- your family stayed as their supplier. MF: Yes. In the early times, if they couldn't pay on time. We just kept doing their work and extending the credit -- and they always remembered that. GE: So in 1983 they started the relationship with your family as being the sole supplier, and it continued until 2009 even at times when you said it didn't always make a lot of sense - and I think we have that. So tell us, with Alfred Dunner at that time, you entered the business around 1990. So tell us what the growth was like -- what was happening in terms of the kind of product they were selling, and what the growth was like of their product, and you as a producer of their product. MF: At the time we were in one building -- actually we had two buildings -- one right behind the other and the one building would make about 6,000 pants per week, and the other building, in the back, was making about 2,000 pants per week. So we were at 8,000 pants per week between the two buildings. Maybe we could squeeze out 10,000 per week, but we kept growing and growing. At the point where we needed subcontractors to do more and more. Then the number really became about 30,000-35,000 per week -- before you knew it - it got up to about 140,000 pants per week -- is how many we had to make. GE: Was that at the peak? MF: Yes at the peak, then at Christmas time it was even worse! That's another story. That's the normal peak - then it would pick up between Thanksgiving and Christmas. We would be really swamped. We'd bring on people only for a short time. The peak was probably around the year 2000. When 9-11 hit, if you remember, the first thing they said was that the next place terrorists were going to hit was the malls. Remember they were putting barricades in front of all the doors at the malls. People stopped shopping -- dramatically. It made people (everybody in that world) rethink how they do their business. They were already really motivated then to do things overseas. Plus fabric mills, which we depended on, with regulations and wages and OSHA -- they were looking to do more and more overseas as well and constantly calling on our customers and saying, "We're building a new plant in Mexico. Why don't you have your pants made there? We'll make the same fabric there." They would test these things, they would do little tests. So we're seeing our numbers drop each year -- it was going down and down. GE: So after 9-11-2001 -- they began using other factories. MF: Right -- overseas, not locally. They were testing China and Mexico and at the time, their quality wasn't as good as ours, but pretty quickly, they became even better than us - real fast. And they would come to us and say, "Look what they're doing there." Because our machines are old and they are getting new machines and they have all these wheels that make nice little creases, so I had to buy new wheels -- little things. It didn't take much to fix, but we were always chasing that a little bit. GE: People were making fabric, as they were going overseas, was that making it difficult for you to get fabric at a competitive rate? MF: Well, they bought the fabric for us. It really made it difficult for them. They were being constantly told, "Hey, we could do this much cheaper for you in Mexico, Central America or China. We have plants there now." But, they were being loyal to us. They could have been able to save 30% or more. But at the time, as long as they were making money, I think they were happy. GE: Now, did you only make pants? MF: Yes. Occasionally we made -- like a one-piece - that was kind of like a long skirt. GE: Like a jumper? MF: Kind of like a long button down skirt. But mostly pants. GE: But, you didn't make the tops? MF: Other people made the tops. They would ask us who could make things. I know the Barson's--I don't know if you know the Barson Family. "Barsew" - my friend, Randy Barson - his brother was running the factory -- his mother is still alive down in Florida. GE: And this is also a local family? MF: In Lehighton. SC: How do you spell that? MF: B-A-R-S-O-N and it was called Barsew. They made some tops. Another one was Scotty's. Scotty's Fashion -- did you ever hear of them? GE: No. MF: They are not Jewish, but we introduced them because they could make the tops, and they were making coats -- like the sports coats for Russ Togs, which was another big name. They were hurting for business and our Vice President at the time started out as a secretary at Scotty's. She knew them so we connected them. They would work directly for Alfred Dunner (without going through us) to make the tops directly, but they were a sub-contractor to us for the pants. Even though we did them this huge favor, and they were making huge amounts of money, there was a time when they tried to go around us on the pants. They actually went to Alfred Dunner and said, "Here's what Tama's paying us for the pants -- what are you paying them?" and it was a big "tadoo." It was an interesting story -- I don't know if it fits in. SC: It does, absolutely. MF: It was 1994 or 95 when it was snowing every Wednesday. GE: I think I remember that! MF: The snow was higher than my car in the driveway. Because of that, factories closed. We had to close ours up on those days. A lot of the ladies had kids in school so they're not coming in, and why make them risk their lives for this. So we were closed and other factories were closed. What we had to do was add more factories. It actually pushed us into New Jersey towards New York - finding factories that first of all didn't have the snow. And they were open and people lived like right above the factory. So we had all these little factories that we would call and say, "Could you do two thousand per week, could you do three thousand per week? What could you do?" And they would do it. At the same time, Scotty's thought they had us because of the weather. They said, "We want 16% more money on what you are paying us or we are going to Alfred Dunner directly and tell them this is what you are paying us." And we didn't listen to their bluff. My dad was involved at the time, and I got on the phone with Neil Scott and said, "Are you sure you are going to close your factory that has 350 people if you can't work for this price?" "You're going to really close your factory?" Because we couldn't pay them more. We quickly called these factories and asked them, "What's the most you could do?" One said, "Oh, I could do eight thousand per week, I could do ten thousand per week." Scotty's were only doing 35 thousand per week -- the other factories were new and they knew how to make them. I said, "I said are you sure -- because your factory will be out of business in two weeks if you stick to this. He said, "No, I'll bet on Scotty's" -- because he was a gambler -- "I'll bet on Scotty's." We said okay. We took all our work out and gave it to all these people, and they were closed. They went to Alfred Dunner and tried to say will you pay us? Alfred Dunner said, "No, we work for Tama." Imagine 35 thousand pairs of pants -- the dollars that is -- and he could have probably made - at least another six or seven years until we had to cut back. That was an interesting little story, it even gets my blood boiling today when I think about it. SC: That's a great story, this is what we are looking for. MF: He just gambled the whole thing away and it was pure greed. At this point we were heavily engineered, we knew what everything costs --we knew how much they were making. There was no reason for it. They just wanted to go directly to Alfred Dunner and not have to get work from us. Alfred Dunner stood behind us -- they still gave them the jackets, but they didn't take away any pants to give to them. SC: Where was their factory again? MF: In the Kresge building. They had a bunch of factories, and they might even be open in some small way -- but I don't know what they are doing. GE: So your family always stayed just in pants. MF: Yes. Way back, I think we made everything. At one point, we made kids' clothing. GE: Maybe way back. If I recall from the last interview - I think after WWII you were pretty much pants. Maybe you could also address this. I seem to recall something about that the one thing your father liked about working with Alfred Dunner was that it was an easy pants to make. MF: Oh yes, they were easy, and that's what the worker's liked. Don't forget they are piece rate union workers. The easier it can be to make them, the better. It got to the point where the workers would complain that, "Oh, I got larger sizes than you." Because large sizes are more to sew -- by a few more inches and more to handle and actually we did sometimes pay more, a little more, on the larger sizes. We would have to keep books on each size each person got -- it got ridiculous, but we would do it because the Union would say, "you're giving her more large sizes." It never failed, when you looked it up -- they actually had less large sizes than the person next to them. They were always jealous of the one next to them. They were looking at the bundle next to them and they would say, "oh, I got size 8-- oh, I got size 32." It always worked out -- the one complaining always had less -- she should have kept quiet because then we had to give her larger sizes. SC: What union was it? MF: ILGWU, and then it became United. GE: Share with us a little bit the relationship -- how large was your management group -- who were the workers? What were the relationships like? Was there any tension? MF: Like anything - really-- there is always a few bad apples. Everyone else was great, and there are always trouble makers. There are some people who enjoy coming to work to make trouble and complain. I don't understand it, I never will -- so that's what you had. Everyone was happy and content and some were exceptional. At the peak we had about 40-50 non-union workers. That would be staff, mechanics and floor people and the rest - about 380 union people. In the end we had about 200 union people and about 25-30 non-union people. GE: How were those last 7 or 8 years - morale-wise- when everything was on the decline? MF: When it was on the decline, I knew right away I had to get government work -- right away. There was a law at the time - it was called the Berry Amendment -- which was a law for the military, they have to make it in the United States. I managed, through meeting people and getting the word out -- we got a small order as a subcontractor to make the Army combat pants -- the old style, the camouflage pants from an outfit out in Connecticut. We were doing really well with that, and he just stopped paying us, so we stopped shipping. We were making them, but we held on because he wasn't paying. Finally he folded, or something happened. We had a lot of pants -- like 200,000 pants that we never got paid for. Then, with a consultant at the time, we were putting in bids for work -- all the time. Finally we got one that hit -- we won the bid -- it was to make jogging pants for the Air Force -- like for the gym. It was a small contract, but nice. It was so easy to make that we made money the first month, which we didn't expect. It was profitable right away. In the interim, now that I had this contract, and we got to know people inside the defense department. I said, "I have all these pants that the guy didn't pay me for -- is there any way you can take them?" And they finagled because they had to make a contract for the pants. They paid me the full price -- as if I bought the fabric. You know I was a subcontractor making them for ten-dollars a pair and now they are paying me twenty eight dollars. So I got most of my money back, I didn't get it all back, but I got 80-90% of it back by holding on to those pants and selling it directly to the government. So we had this contract for the Air Force jogging pants for about a year, year and a half. They cancelled the contract because the soldiers didn't like the fabric. When they walked it went "whoosh, whoosh, whoosh." They didn't like that sound. We worked with the Air Force, I had to fly out to Wright-Patterson out in Ohio, which was really fascinating -- I had to work with different, softer, types of fabrics. We never heard anything back though -- what they ever did with it. I don't know -- it just kind of went away. I'm sure they had some kind of jogging pants somewhere--but we never heard about that. Then we went after this huge order for the Air Force combat uniform -- which was both the jacket and the pants. GE: So this was quite a step for you because you had been doing pants. MF: We kind of figured right off the bat that we'd give out all the jackets, and we'd do all the pants. It was me going by the seat of my pants basically -- I didn't know if they would agree to it. Then, for the pants, we would need an extra 150 people to do this contract, but it was a five-year, 75 million dollar contract. We put in the bid and we would call on Senators -- what do you call it? GE: Lobbying? MF: The Union was actually helping me. They told me that it should count in our favor that we're a union shop. We pay healthcare benefits to these people, we have good working conditions. Why are you ordering things to people on the border of Mexico, who pay Mexicans to do the work? (which was what my sub-contractor was--.) Anyway, to make a long story short - we won this award. The first year was 22 million dollars. That sounds like you win the lottery, and they write you a check for 22 million dollars, but it doesn't work that way. You actually have to go out (with your own money) and buy the fabric, then train all these people -- buy the machines that we don't own or lease them or whatever. There was a learning curve and it was hard -- you are going from the easiest pair of pants to the hardest. GE: This was what year? MF: I want to say 2006 -- maybe -- I'm not sure. I'm all excited, and I immediately have to expand my factory. I have space in my building -- we had moved to a 190 square foot building at this point -- half of it we weren't really using. I had to put more hook-ups for more people and more machines. Three months later my contract with the Union is up and they think I won the lottery -- they think, "Oh, 22 million -- you're doing great -- we want 18% more healthcare, and we are going to give the people less of a plan." They couldn't put their families on the plan and had more of a co-pay. They had told the people that I was offering no wage increase and that I didn't want to pay any healthcare, and I was offering them 2% - which is pretty customary over three years -- 2, 2 and 2, and I said I'll pay the same healthcare as I pay now -- that's what I figured on. The ballot put out to the people was that Tama is offering no wage increase for three years and is not willing to pay any healthcare. Of course, they all went on strike, but the people on the negotiating team crossed the picket line and worked because they knew she was lying -- they were my key people. It was a nightmare --I had to have security - it went on for fifteen weeks. I had the best lawyer - ever. GE: It went on for fifteen weeks? MF: Fifteen weeks -- and I was eliminating the Union. I brought in bus loads of workers from Philadelphia -- from Chinatown-- to fill the seats and do the work, but we were falling behind because it was so disruptive and difficult. That allowed me to sub-contract right away for the jackets -- the government said, "Oh, you are having a strike -- you can do it." It went on for fifteen weeks and the lawyer said, "Now you can advertise for replacement workers, which is basically saying -- you don't need the Union anymore." And it's legal -- you have enough people, and now you are just looking for people to replace the people you had. Then the President of the Union called and said, "Let's have a meeting." They ended up settling. I said, "Now you cost me a lot of money, I was closed for 15 weeks. I hired security, I fell behind on all of my work. They had people picketing J.C. Penny saying , "Don't buy Alfred Dunner." That was probably the nail that sealed it for Alfred Dunner. They had a good reason to say, "What do we need this aggravation for? When we can just buy it for 30% less from China, and no one is going to complain." That probably didn't help either. They settled the contract -- they agreed to 0,1,& ; 0. Now I had to do what they had said and I said, "You cost me so much money. I can't have all this complaining about the large sizes, all this pettiness has to go away. Whether they are on military or Alfred Dunner , they can't complain. But, they still gave me a hard time when they came back. Pretty soon after I decided to sell the contract to the people in Mexico (Texas). I said, "This is not going to work, the people are just not trying, they don't care. " We even tried to pay them more money to do the work and it just wasn't happening. So I sold that contract, so that never really happened. Now I'm back to just having Alfred Dunner again, and I lost my motivation to try -- I'm doing everything to save their jobs, and they go on strike. At the end of the day, they follow the Union, which is stupid. I kind of thought, what's the point of it? When Alfred Dunner did call and said, "we're done" I didn't shed a tear - I felt this weight just lift off my shoulder. I was happy about it actually. SC: And that was in 2009? MF: Now what happened there was they were always caught short at Christmas time. Remember I told you at Christmas the numbers would jump way up. Near the end our average number per week was about 35,000 per week -- it was a normal week. At Christmas, it went up to 90,000-1000,00 per week - from Thanksgiving to the end of the year. That's what sales would be across J.C. Penney as a guide. They were always caught a little bit short -- Dunner was short and then J.C. Penney would look at what sold last year to figure on their orders for this year. So they thought, we are always short -- let's up it 10% and they were already short and now they are going to be short again. They are ordering less because of it. They thought this year, we'll be smart and we are going to over-order and have tons of stock ready so that we fill every single order so that next year when they order 10% more it's the real number. So they ordered a ton of work from us -- it was really busy, and we stored it in our facility because they didn't have room to store all this work. and they paid us for all of it at the time. In 2008 -- that's when the market crashed -- remember the GM was going to fold. The bulk of their customers were mid-western. GE: Of Alfred Dunner? MF: Their biggest buyers are mid-western. GE: The department stores are in the midwest? MF: Even they are everywhere here--.they just sell better in the midwest. And, we see the numbers of what's selling, normally at Christmas time -- it goes from 35 to 90 and we were seeing numbers like 12 thousand, 9 thousand, 16 thousand and here we were making 130 thousand a week -- figuring on that kind of number. I wrote a letter to all my people saying we are going to be laid off for the next 4 months until we eat up all this extra inventory. Two weeks later the president of that company called me up and said, "Mark, we're going to have to take all our work over to China now because sales are so low, we can manage it from overseas." It was kind of an excuse for them, but it worked, and I understood it. I just had to write another letter back and say, "We're closing." GE: So with all of that inventory that you had, were you able to sell that off? MF: Oh yes, It was already paid for by Alfred Dunner. The styles don't change -- they make the same -- black, navy, grey, white -- depending on the time of year. It was standard colors -- eventually it was going to get sold. We would just ship it to them when they had holes in their warehouse and had room. GE: This happened over 3-6 months? MF: From February to April, May -- we got rid of all that extra. GE: And, how many people were working for you at the time when you had to close? MF: About 200 -- and that was 2009. SC: So you have some good anecdotes, too? MF: I do. GE: Just a couple of questions. How do you think this area here has been affected? This was a very thriving textile area and now there's really none. MF: I don't think the area really notices it because other things take its place. My biggest concern with the whole country is that we don't make things here anymore. That's a big danger. We build casinos -- so what is that? That's money spiraling down the toilet. That's not new money coming in from another country or other people. That's our own money going into different pockets. We don't make anything anymore. We are all about the service industry. Even my new business now is basically a service business. That's not the way to grow an economy. You can't just be serving each other hamburgers -- what kind of money are you going to make? You have to sell things to other countries to bring money in and even to make an environment that even if we are not making things right now make it so friendly that Germany wants to build a factory here or Japan. And, they do some of that with the cars, and we need more of that. I notice that even with my business, there are so many things that distract you from your business -- from focusing on your business and it's usually government related things. You are dealing with OSHA -- and OSHA is a good thing to have in place, because all these things start with good intentions but people abuse them. The day I opened up my brand new factory -- it had high ceilings and beautiful, comfortable chairs and all new stuff. The brand new air conditioning unit didn't work -- they were still putting freon in it -- it happened to be one of these ninety degree days -- and it was warm in the factory. People called OSHA because it was too warm -- on the opening day. OSHA came and said they have no rules regarding temperature. Just the fact that people would do that on the opening day of a brand new nice place - I put in systems that would be delivered right to the presses, and then people are complaining. SC: Do you think we are becoming an economic colony of other countries in some ways? MF: We are, but I think there's nothing wrong with that. The whole world is getting smaller -- everything is going to the cheapest country. Even China now -- because I spoke to the President of Alfred Dunner -- maybe last year and said, "How are things going?" He said , "guess what -- China and Central America are too expensive now -- we are in Bangladesh and Cambodia now." Where do you go next - to the moon? Eventually you run out of countries. The good news is that it may be more level -- as long as countries are doing things to make it more level then it's a function of are our oil prices so high that it makes no sense -- then it's like little things that you are deciding about. I just heard that they are building cell phones in the United States -- in Texas. One of the SmartPhones companies is building in Texas. Then you hear, "I'm sure it will have glitches." People have feelings like "we can't even do that right." Which I'm sure we can. We used to do everything -- we used to make TVs here and other things. It's not anyone's fault but the governments that make it so easy to go overseas and so difficult to make things here. When I was in Brazil -- when I worked for Merv -- I ordered a bottle of champagne. I wasn't using money, and I got the bill and it was 3 million of their money and I thought , "Whatever the exchange rate, it can't be good." It turned out to be 300 dollars. I said, "Why is this so expensive?" It was maybe a 20 dollar bottle. They said, "Because we have a 100% import tax." And you should have that -- pay for the job that was lost in your own country and make it more attractive to buy our products here. There are so many simple things we could do, except for the fact that we owe everything to China at this point, we probably can't do anything without their permission. SC: And, we did have high import taxes for a long, long time in the United States. MF: That's just my philosophy. GE: And in terms of the local community, other things took its place and like you said, you think it's unfortunate that we have less manufacturing here. How about in terms of the Jewish community? Forty/fifty years ago there was this thriving community that was often owners of these different factories and much of that has gone away. What do you think the impact has been on the Jewish community here? MF: It must have impacted it in some ways. I don't know what replaced that profession, but you had that group of families that not only had a good business or struggled with their business, but they gave back to the community a lot. Maybe you lose some of that. Being able to fundraise to build a new JCC or a new Temple might be a lot harder because you might not have the families -- that there are some families that their wealth was so great that they passed down to the generations, and they are still giving to the community. But, I don't know of too many people who have a career that can last thirty years. A lot of people that I know, whatever business they are into, before you know it - it either became outdated or something else replaced it. Other people have to re-invent themselves and some people can't. GE: You were saying with the Jewish community there was more of the ability years ago in terms of giving back. What were some of the ways that people gave back and how about your own family? MF: My dad was active with the Jewish Day School and was involved. I remember going to a (during those Israeli wars that would pop up) and they would have a [Jewish] Federation thing that would pop up -- and you'd say, "I pledge 1,000 dollars." They don't have those kinds of things any more or maybe it's more private. GE: The Jewish community especially in this area - they were somehow over-represented in this industry. Why do you think that may be the case? MF: I think it was the proximity to New York City. I think there were some rules with trucking that if you were so far from NY, there were some advantages. There was something like, 50 miles out of NY that you get away with it, you don't if you are closer. GE: The textile industry in general had a lot of Jews and a lot of Italians. Any thoughts as to why those ethnic groups were heavily involved in the industry. MF: We are both so very similar in a lot of ways. It comes from the training that they had -- their parents and grandparents -- that was the profession that you were allowed to do or just did because you enjoyed it. GE: And what professions? MF: Being a tailor -- especially Italians. Italians are still known for being the best tailors. SC: And silk mills. MF: In fact, some of our subcontractors were Italian from the Scranton area. Scotty's is actually an Italian family. They either really were Italian, or Jewish, and then, eventually, Asian. Which is current now and they were great. The thing about Asian people is if they say they're going to have it done by . . . and you say how much can you do? And if they say 20,000, and you think, wait, you only had 8,000 last week, and now you will have 20,000? They say, don't worry, I'll have it, and they do. Because what they do is they spread it out amongst all . . . things you probably don't even know what goes on. They just give it out to their friends' factories, and you don't even want to know where it's going, but it comes back. And they just get it done. GE: Right, right, and they were your subcontractors at the time? How about your work force? Mostly women? MF: Mostly women. GE: What ethnicity were they? MF: Mostly Pennsylvania Dutch. Probably more than any other factory, we had Pennsylvania Dutch women from the Northampton area. When I moved over by the Airport, I made sure it was close enough so that they could all make it. Then all the new people were coming from other countries. We actually found people through the Catholic Charities Group. They would find people from all over the world, so we had people from all walks of life. GE: Did it tend to be first generation workers? MF: The new people? GE: Yes. MF: The new people were -- people in their twenties, and we had to train some of them how to sew. They were willing to learn, and they actually were pretty good. They were really into it. SC: A better work ethic? MF: No, the older workers had the best work ethic. Occasionally you find someone good. But, it was hard to find people -- there were people that came in and maybe by break time they would just leave because they didn't like it -- or maybe they didn't need the money. We didn't pay a whole lot more than unemployment -- maybe we were too close to what unemployment was. GE: It was not the work ethic? MF: We had women 70 years old who still kept coming to work. I don't think it's because they needed the money. Maybe they wanted to get away from their husbands, or got along with the other women there, or were just saving up for a cruise or something. They just really enjoyed working. One benefit because of the way I closed, because they took the work overseas, the workers got two years of college retraining into another field. There are a lot of people who I run into who say that they wished that I would still be open. They say, "We didn't realize how good we had it." Some people went to Amazon.com - where they really need a Union. GE: Where is that? MF: In Fogelsville. I have two workers that I've run into that have lost 40 pounds working at Amazon.com. They were overweight when they worked for me and now they are slim and svelte because they are running -- they don't give them a break -- they go home crying. SC: There were protests. It was awful. MF: It's still bad. They don't let them make more than fifteen dollars per hour. Once you hit that, you'll never get a raise. GE: Now we have two final questions. SC: Actually three final questions. What did your family value most in life and what did you value? These are my film questions. MF: To have family all around and have your health -- that your family is all doing well. GE: Would you say that's both your family's values as well as your own? MF: I would hope so, yes. They may think differently. SC: And how were they connected to the wider community? I think we did talk about that. What gives you a sense of creativity and/or artistry. I used to always say artistry in life, not meaning actual art, but the sense of fulfillment and creativity in life. MF: I think I am a creative person, although I don't use that a lot. I like to make jokes and laugh. If I can make a joke or do something to make people laugh -- I get a kick out of that. I didn't show you my Obama stuff. Let me go get it. This is just a sample of it. GE: Now this is 2008. MF: 2008, so he was just running for President. SC: Oh Wow, can you put this up? We can scan that. MF: If you google Obama visits Tama Manufacturing, you'll have a lot of pictures. I have a bunch I can send you because there was a whole bus of press there -- Time Magazine, CNN. I was on Wolf Blitzer -- the Wall -- there was a picture of me, Obama and one of my workers. GE: Tell us about it. MF: What happened was -- the Union lady called me on Sunday. She said, "Do you mind if we bring Obama in on Tuesday- which was April 1 - for a tour?" I didn't mind at all because by then he was like a rock star -- I just wanted to meet him. They said, "Just don't tell anyone because of security." He's going to walk through and shake people's hands -- spend about a half hour. Then on Monday, the Secret Service and his advance people came through to see where the bus would park, the path he would take. I asked my mom if she wanted to go, and my kids took off-- Sean and Danny. Sean was allowed to vote that year, and he plays basketball, and they were talking about basketball. The first bus shows up with the press. Then a half hour later Obama's bus was supposed to come. The press bus driver says, "Do you want to pull the bus around to the other side?" He said, "No, I'll wait here, I don't want to be inspected again." If either bus goes out of sight, they would have to get the dogs again. So then, Obama comes in the back door of the cutting room and keeps chatting with everyone. He asked me, "Why are you still in business, when no one else is?" I told him as long as fabric mills are open -- but you have to put in some of these import taxes. This is what we are fighting against. Sure enough, a year and a half later, I was closed. He was nice to everyone. GE: He came to Muhlenberg. SC: I wonder if it was when he came to Muhlenberg. GE: No, I think it was in September. MF: He went right from me to Springhouse. He spoke there and said, "I just came from Tama Manufacturing. It has a nice owner, nice people." Then he came back two years later and went to the unemployment office and met some of my people. They told him he visited them at Tama Manufacturing and spoke to them, and now they don't have jobs. SC: That gives me shivers. MF: He said, "some jobs you just can't save." Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:04:23
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mark Fogelman, October 12, 2013
Description
An account of the resource
Mark Fogelman talks about how he returned to the family business after spending close to ten years working in the Television business in California, notably as a production manager with Merv Griffin Productions. Around 1990, Tama Manufacturing began exclusively sewing pants for the manufacturer, Alfred Dunner. Fortunately, purchases of the Alfred Dunner brand grew rapidly during this time period. At its peak, Tama Manufacturing employed close to 400 people and used twelve subcontractors to meet Alfred Dunner’s needs. Alfred Dunner continued their relationship with Tama Manufacturing until 2009.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LVTNT-21
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-10-12
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.
-
https://textile.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/37bd9178870af35761646885e78ef894.png
68c47dbb9be687e50c4920012db66bbc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mark Stutz
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-22.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 June 27, 2016 Mark Stutz, June 27, 2016 LVTNT-22 1:09:15 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Mark Stutz Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 StutzMark_20160627 1.0:|23(11)|38(17)|55(12)|80(12)|99(14)|124(5)|143(10)|164(12)|185(13)|204(9)|233(5)|250(7)|275(14)|298(12)|323(7)|342(11)|367(3)|396(13)|437(7)|460(5)|465(2)|490(10)|517(20)|536(14)|557(15)|582(4)|607(5)|632(9)|651(12)|686(3)|707(6)|732(2)|757(11)|784(8)|803(13)|824(12)|849(14)|868(3)|887(10)|910(4)|935(6)|956(5)|975(9)|1000(2)|1019(12)|1044(11)|1065(16)|1086(13)|1103(17)|1130(14)|1155(2)|1178(5)|1201(14)|1218(9)|1239(9)|1264(13)|1295(8)|1326(5)|1351(2)|1372(5)|1393(10)|1416(11)|1439(11)|1468(6)|1491(14)|1518(11)|1549(2)|1580(9)|1601(8)|1604(5) 0 https://www.youtube.com/embed/jJpGWlsmyvk?autoplay=0& ; playsinline=0 YouTube video 0 Family History SC: Today is June 27, 2016 and would you give your full name Mark and when you were born and where you were born.
 ; 
 ; MS: My name is Mark Stutz, and I am 64 years old. I was born May 18,1952 here in Allentown, Pennsylvania. 
 ; 
 ; SC: Could we go back as far as you know with your mother’s and your father's family, any names that you know, where they came from and what they did, and how they made a living or whatever.
 ; 
 ; MS: Sure. I’ll start with my mother’s side because it’s a shorter story. I only knew my grandmother and my grandfather. Their last name was Bahoff.
 ; 
 ; SC: Would you spell that?
 ; 
 ; MS: B-A-H-O-F-F. 0 518 Education and Extra Curriculars SC: And could you, would you talk about, I know you can, would you talk about your education from the beginning all the way through?
 ; 
 ; MS: Okay, sure. I went to the Jewish day school. I don't think I ever went to the JCC, but maybe I did for nursery school, I probably did. I went from kindergarten through sixth grade at the Jewish day school. We were members of Sons of Israel back then. I was bar-mitzvahed there. Then went to Raub Junior High, 7th, 8th and 9th. And then William Allen from 10th, 11th and 12th. And was really involved in the JCC at that time. Then I went to University of Bridgeport for my undergraduate degree in liberal arts and as a theater major. And then started to act professionally. Oh, I’m sorry, I went back to grad school at Catholic University for directing. And then I went to, while I was there I got some professional gigs, so I stopped going to school, because I was working, acting in shows, and I had a layoff between shows. 0 723 Connection Between Theatre and Business SC: And this a question I haven’t asked anyone yet, do you see a connection between directing and your work in theatre with being a business person?
 ; 
 ; MS: Well, yeah, a lot. First of all, I think the fact that I always wanted to be a director more than an actor is because I like to be in charge of the result, not boss, although that comes with the territory, but I like to have an endgame plan and be responsible to make that happen. So it's a vision, the same way I had with the factory. I enjoyed the end game of it. I did not, there were things I didn't like about it, certainly the challenge of meeting deadlines and things like that and working with people. And in the factory, it was working with employees, and in the schools it is working with students and as a director it's working with people who you are their boss, they might not be getting paid, but they're acting and you're in charge of what happens so yeah there is a connection. 0 790 Family Moved to Allentown SC: Do you know when your family came to Allentown, what years they came? We can look that up, but it’s easier to ask.
 ; 
 ; MS: Well I know my brother was born here so that was 1950, so I would say around 1948/1949 they came to Allentown. First my parents came, and then my grandparents came. And then they, my grandparents lived, moved into a twin in South Mountain, and my parents were living in Valley View Apartments. And then my parents moved to the same cul-de-sac called Vine Street in South Mountain, near South Mountain Little League, where my grandparents lived. I grew up living two houses away from my grandparents. Then when we moved to the Westend, they had houses next to each other. So I grew up like Something About Raymond [Everybody Loves Raymond] that was what I grew up with. Okay but I was the kid, not the parents. My grandparents lived right next door. 0 849 Childhood Memories SC: Do you have any memories of when you were a child about the business when you weren’t a part of it?
 ; 
 ; MS: I do, I remember, I do, I remember being, going to the old factory, the original original factory because we moved three times before we ended up at the place where I was working. And the old factory that was creaky elevators, I remember, and just the very, the smells and you know it was hot or cold and was dusty. My grandfather's office was like a mess, you know. I think I inherited that from him. But I do remember that. I don't remember any conversation about it. My father wasn't working [there], it was too small of a business. My father was with Surefit and he was not working with the business at that time. 0 1030 Details About Family Names GE: Just a quick question, you had mentioned your parents, grandparents, but I don’t have anybody’s names, so could you tell me some of their names?
 ; 
 ; MS: So my grandfather on my mother's side, so my maternal grandfather was Jack Bahoff, Jacob Bahoff. Jack Bahoff, I guess it was Jacob.
 ; 
 ; GE: It probably was. And Bahoff is…
 ; 
 ; MS: B-A-H-O-F-F. And…
 ; 
 ; GE: And his wife?
 ; 
 ; MS: Oh, my gosh, my maternal grandmother, what was her name? That’s everyone I think I know. 
 ; 
 ; GE: What about your Bubbie? 0 1269 History of the Business GE: So Mark, I want to now go back and just give us the history with the business. How your grandfather got started, when your father came in, and eventually when you came in.
 ; 
 ; MS: Sure. So, as I said in the earlier conversation, my grandfather was sort of a ‘Journeyman,’ going around to factories and helping people be more efficient in what they were doing. That industry didn't exist then as consulting, although my grandfather would have been very wealthy having created a consulting business. They never went through any agencies. People would just, he would work for someone long enough and he just couldn’t take it, and they would fight, and he would leave. He had a big-time temper, not violent, just loud. He didn’t mean anything. 
 ; 
 ; So then they opened up the little place in Allentown. He got one client which was a company that made little girls’ bathing suits for what we now call boutiques but then it was just children's stores because there weren't any Walmarts and K-marts in those days. So it was a specialty item and it was little kids’ bathing suits. And they were high-end, and he always felt that if you made for high-end, you could always do a better living because no one was going to nickel or dime you because they could afford it on the other end. 0 3478 What Has Made You Feel Most Creative in Life? SC: Okay, so my crazy questions are first of all, what has made you feel the most creative in life?
 ; 
 ; MS: Well, certainly nothing in the garment industry made me, and just so you have this on record, I will say it, I hated the last 12-15 years of the career. Hated it. Hated every . . . I felt like there were so many important things happening in the world, and I was wondering whether or not Macy’s got their bathing suits a day late. And stressing about it and fighting with buyers about it and having real issues about . . . and there were people out in wars and doctors, and people. I understand the reality that it’s not just that bathing suit because that bathing suit then means that the person who sells the bathing suit on the floor of the store loses their job if we don’t make it. And, you know, I understand that there is a certain amount of . . . but it just didn’t seem that important to me to make everyone go crazy about it. So it was very unsatisfying. Now understand I never . . . until I got divorced with my two boys that lived with me, I did theatre all the time. I worked at Civic, I directed before Bill came in as a full time director, I directed at Civic, Pennsylvania Playhouse, Guthsville Playhouse, I directed all the time. I was always doing something theatrically because it’s part of who I am, and I couldn’t get away from that. 0 3710 What Do You Value Most in Life? SC: And what do you value most in life?
 ; 
 ; MS: My family. It’s not even a question. They come, they’re, they come before anything. And not just my mother and my wife and my kids, but my step-kids, and their significant others, their boyfriends and girlfriends. Family, I wouldn’t be where I am today if I hadn't grown up with a family that had great strong family values. My kids have strong family values. And I think that that is, and that’s a challenge for a lot of people who don’t. I raised my kids as a single dad for a while. Their mom was in town, but they wanted to be with me. They were boys, and they wanted to be with their dad. You know, I lived, I never moved out of the house, and that’s where they grew up . . . and that is, that house, that sofa that I tried to get rid of and now I have to put in the living room because the kids say ‘where are we all going to sit when we all come?’ Well you all are going to come? I got two in Denver, one in Baltimore, one in Philly, one in Bethlehem. How are you..well they do, they all show up. And on Father's day, they were either with me or with their dads or one was with my mom down in Florida. So they value family. So that answer is simple, my family. Other than that it is my integrity. My family and my integrity. That’s it. 0 3884 Advantages of Small Factory SC: Do you think there is an advantage to having a smaller factory where it’s easier in and easier out in some ways?
 ; 
 ; MS: Well it’s the same way with a cast of a show, like a big cast show or a small cast show. Each one has its own problems. Each one has its own advantages. When I directed Our Town with 35 or 36 people, my director directs Titanic last year and he had 60 people in the cast. Thirty people in the pit, and thirty people on crew, it’s great but there is a lot of people to manage. It is a lot of ins and outs. But there is a big value to it because a lot of people get [some] benefit from it. I’m doing a show this fall with six kids in it, so the advantage is that I can get really close with six kids, bring out something that they’ve never had the opportunity to do. And it’s good for them. So, there is advantages to both. I think the answer quite frankly is, it sounds like a cop-out, but midsize. Family run, 50, 60, 70 operators was when we were ideal because we could control everything, and everyone knew our name, we knew their name, and we knew their kids. It was different. 0 MovingImage Mark Stutz talks about how his grandfather started in the children’s bathing suit sewing business with one customer. That relationship held for a few decades while that company remained in business. Later, Mark’s father and he ran the business. Over time, they got into producing high end women’s bathing suits. During the years Mark worked in the business, he stayed active in local theatre both as an actor and director. Later he was able to pivot and became the Director of Fine Arts at Parkland High School . 
 ; Interview with Mark Stutz, June 27, 2016 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is June 27, 2016 and would you give your full name Mark and when you were born and where you were born. MARK STUTZ: My name is Mark Stutz, and I am 64 years old. I was born May 18,1952 here in Allentown, Pennsylvania. SC: Could we go back as far as you know with your mother's and your father's family, any names that you know, where they came from and what they did, and how they made a living or whatever. MS: Sure. I'll start with my mother's side because it's a shorter story. I only knew my grandmother and my grandfather. Their last name was Bahoff. SC: Would you spell that? MS: B-A-H-O-F-F. And I have, um, they had three kids. My mother is the last surviving child of that family, and I have four cousins from the other brother and sister. I knew my great-grandmother on that side, but very briefly. And then on my father's side I knew my grandmother's mother and my grandfather's father and mother. My great-grandfather was very orthodox. I'm not quite sure whether he was one of the people who wrote the Torahs or if he just studied all day, I'm not sure, but I know he had the long beard and the hat. It was always a little scary to see him the first time when we were little kids. I only met my great-grandmother on that side a couple times before she died. And my grandmother, I only met her mother. I never met her father. Let's see, my grandmother's maiden name was-- hm, it will come to me. I knew it, I just can't think of it right now. My grandfather originally was Stutsky, but my great grandfather got rid of the '-ky' so. I don't know why they did that. Was it because of immigration or he did it himself and it could have been another longer name that was gotten rid of. But my grandfather was a Stutz, and he had, and my grandmother's name, I only knew her as Tilly, I can't tell you what her real name was. I knew her as Nanna. So she had a son, two sons and a daughter. My father passed away seventeen years ago, and my uncle and my aunt are still alive. SC: Where did they come from? MS: Poland. SC: Do you know where? MS: No, I don't. My mother's grandparents were already Americans. My great-grandparents moved here, so my grandfather was first-generation American. He wasn't born in America - my grandfather - he was born in Europe, so I guess really my father's generation is the first generation that was born American. SC: So did they all come from Poland? MS: I know my grandfather and my grandmother did. I don't know about the others. SC: What kind of work did any of the generations do that you know? MS: I know that my grandfather on my mother's side was involved with some weekly newspapers as far as delivery or, he wasn't involved as a writer or anything. They were hand-to-mouth living ; they didn't really have a lot. My grandmother on my mother's side never worked, that I knew of. And they were not extremely religious as far as Judaism was concerned. That's where I first tasted bacon was in my grandmother's apartment from my mother's side. If you walk up the steps to their apartment, you could smell it cooking. But on my father's side, like I said, my great grandfather had something to do with religion, I don't know exactly what. My grandfather entered the garment industry as his very first job. He worked for my grandmother's brother, Dave. And he ended up, the story goes that it was the height of the Depression and there was an argument going on in the office, and my grandfather's brother-in-law, my grandmother's brother, said something about her. And my grandfather slugged him and walked out. And there he was without a job in the Depression. And he wouldn't go home without a job, so he went to a, he saw an ad that they were looking for a foreman at a garment factory. He had never been a foreman at a factory. He had done packing or whatever. He walked in and the guy said, 'what experience do you have?' My grandfather said 'don't worry about it,' he said, 'look, try me out, if I'm as good as the other person who was here [before] then you keep me hired, and if I'm not any good, get rid of me.' And that was how he started in the garment industry. He didn't know he was getting paid, he had no idea. Then when he got his first paycheck or cash in those days, it was pretty good. And then he became what today would be called a consultant. He used to go around to other people's factories and help them do better at their factory. He was, they didn't have a name for it back then. He just got hired. Then my grandparents lived in Cuba for a while when it was, you know, friendly to Americans, and he helped build factories there. He was doing it all over the place. And my father worked for Surefit. Ok, so I don't know if you spoke with anyone from Surefit, but he worked for Surefit. That was Krasnov. He said that he was settling here, and he said to my grandparents, to my grandfather, 'you know you're making money for a lot of other people, why don't you do this yourself?' He said my grandfather had a small factory, down by where the Good Shepherd Home is right now, down there somewhere. They had a small factory on the second floor. And that's what starts. Now that had to be after I was born, because the company is called BruMar. Bruce for my brother, Mark for me. So I would say 1952/53 it was started. SC: As far as any other names or in your family or any business names that you know of? MS: Well, my mother's, my mother's sister-in-law, they were the Nowaks out of Philadelphia, N-O-W-A-K. I know they owned a camp, a summer camp at one time, up in the Poconos. I think Lieberman was my grandmother's family, something like that. And they lived in Coney Island. I used to spend time at their apartment, and that's how I kind of knew them. We didn't have a very large family that, you know, it didn't seem to be extremely large. Because there was only two and three kids from each group. Also, the company that we worked for, that my grandfather contracted for was Little Kids Bathing Suits, and we'll talk about that when we talk about the business. But that owner's name was Paul Yellin. He was from New York, from the Scarsdale area in New York. SC: And could you, would you talk about, I know you can, would you talk about your education from the beginning all the way through? MS: Okay, sure. I went to the Jewish day school. I don't think I ever went to the JCC, but maybe I did for nursery school, I probably did. I went from kindergarten through sixth grade at the Jewish day school. We were members of Sons of Israel back then. I was bar-mitzvahed there. Then went to Raub Junior High, 7th, 8th and 9th. And then William Allen from 10th, 11th and 12th. And was really involved in the JCC at that time. Then I went to University of Bridgeport for my undergraduate degree in liberal arts and as a theater major. And then started to act professionally. Oh, I'm sorry, I went back to grad school at Catholic University for directing. And then I went to, while I was there I got some professional gigs, so I stopped going to school, because I was working, acting in shows, and I had a layoff between shows. I knew I had another show to go to, then I had a layoff of about six/seven in the weeks. I was living in DC and it was needed income. So my mother suggested that I come for a while and help my father out in the factory. At that point my father was involved, because it was the busy season, and he needed any help that he could get even if it was minor help, it would be something. I said, okay, and I never left. Well I didn't leave for 25 years anyway. Because, I thought, 'wow this is interesting' and I can use my people skills with the people and there was income, and I sort of got sucked into having a steady income, so I stayed there. And this says athletics on it, it should say the arts, cause I'm now the arts director for Parkland School District but this shirt matched my outfit today, so. SC: And will you do some of the shows that you were in? MS: That I was in? SC: Yeah, or that you worked with. MS: Yeah, okay, so in acting I played Tevye a bunch of times for The Fiddler on the Roof. I've done Fagin in Oliver. I've been in Neil Simon plays like the Chapter Two, and, what's the one with the two men that fight all of the time, not the Odd Couple. I was in that also. I'm talking about the golden, oh gosh, it was with Art Carney and Walter Matthau, and they fought the whole time. I was in that show. I've done a lot of interesting different shows. Directing wise, I directed 20 or 30 musicals easily and just as many straight shows. So anything from American classics like Our Town and Tennessee Williams plays to Shakespeare to anything that comes around because in a school environment you have to give them all sorts of opportunities. SC: And this a question I haven't asked anyone yet, do you see a connection between directing and your work in theatre with being a business person? MS: Well, yeah, a lot. First of all, I think the fact that I always wanted to be a director more than an actor is because I like to be in charge of the result, not boss, although that comes with the territory, but I like to have an endgame plan and be responsible to make that happen. So it's a vision, the same way I had with the factory. I enjoyed the end game of it. I did not, there were things I didn't like about it, certainly the challenge of meeting deadlines and things like that and working with people. And in the factory, it was working with employees, and in the schools it is working with students and as a director it's working with people who you are their boss, they might not be getting paid, but they're acting and you're in charge of what happens so yeah there is a connection. SC: Do you know when your family came to Allentown, what years they came? We can look that up, but it's easier to ask. MS: Well I know my brother was born here so that was 1950, so I would say around 1948/1949 they came to Allentown. First my parents came, and then my grandparents came. And then they, my grandparents lived, moved into a twin in South Mountain, and my parents were living in Valley View Apartments. And then my parents moved to the same cul-de-sac called Vine Street in South Mountain, near South Mountain Little League, where my grandparents lived. I grew up living two houses away from my grandparents. Then when we moved to the Westend, they had houses next to each other. So I grew up like Something About Raymond [Everybody Loves Raymond] that was what I grew up with. Okay but I was the kid, not the parents. My grandparents lived right next door. SC: Do you have any memories of when you were a child about the business when you weren't a part of it? MS: I do, I remember, I do, I remember being, going to the old factory, the original original factory because we moved three times before we ended up at the place where I was working. And the old factory that was creaky elevators, I remember, and just the very, the smells and you know it was hot or cold and was dusty. My grandfather's office was like a mess, you know. I think I inherited that from him. But I do remember that. I don't remember any conversation about it. My father wasn't working [there], it was too small of a business. My father was with Surefit and he was not working with the business at that time. SC: Any other anecdotes about your youth that you think sort of fit in? MS: Um, well my grandfather, my father was also then in a dry cleaning business. So he was working part-time, he was working for Surefit, and then he wanted to be his own boss, so he and Edward Kahan, Ronald Kahan's father, who's still my best friend, they entered into a business partnership. My father did [Martinizing], the dry cleaning business. So it's sort of garment related. And I remember there is the thing that moved the clothes around. My brother and I hanging on it and pushing the buttons, we would get rides. And then that partnership ended, not in the best way. Partnerships like marriages don't always end great. But so I remember that. I don't really, might we, I do remember when the factory was on North Fourth Street. I remember on Saturday mornings, my grandfather would take my brother and I first to breakfast, then to shul to synagogue on Sixth Street, and then we would go to the factory for an hour, and we would turn garments from inside out to outside in. And we would get paid for that, like two dollars and five dollars or breakfast whatever he had the mood to pay. So that was fun. It was a good memory. GAIL EISENBERG: And that Fourth Street, was that the original? MS: No, the original was the one that I can't remember the name of the street. I want to say Lehigh Street but it wasn't Lehigh Street. It was down right across from, I know exactly where it is because there is a Melner [?] trash/hauling thing right there across the street from it, like the third floor. I remember I used to fight with the landlord all the time, we couldn't have heat, whatever, you know, it was one of those old buildings. GE: Just a quick question, you had mentioned your parents, grandparents, but I don't have anybody's names, so could you tell me some of their names? MS: So my grandfather on my mother's side, so my maternal grandfather was Jack Bahoff, Jacob Bahoff. Jack Bahoff, I guess it was Jacob. GE: It probably was. And Bahoff is-- MS: B-A-H-O-F-F. And-- GE: And his wife? MS: Oh, my gosh, my maternal grandmother, what was her name? That's everyone I think I know. GE: What about your Bubbie? MS: Actually, her name was Nana Honey. My other grandmother's name was Nana because when my brother learned to talk, he would call them both Nana, but my grandmother, my maternal grandmother would always call him honey, so he started to say Nana Honey when he was referring to her. So she became Nana Honey, and I don't, I don't, it's terrible, but I am going to find out for you, I'm going to call. SC: Thank you! MS: Yeah, I'll just call my cousins. GE: And on your father's side, what are their names? MS: So Lou, Louis Stutz was the patriarch. GE: That was your grandfather? MS: Yeah, and Tillie, T-I-L-L-I-E, and again, it is the last name that I am struggling with. GE: And what was your parent's names? MS: Leatrice. My mom's name is L-E-A-T-R-I-C-E. And her name was originally Bahoff. And my father's name is Alan, A-L-A-N. SC: And was Louis L-E-W-I-S? MS: L-O-U-I-S. SC: I was just taking a guess. MS: Yeah, L-O-U-I-S. SC: Cause we've tried both. MS: Yeah, I'm sure. SC: So I think that's it for the early years. GE: So the only other one quick question I have from the early years is what about your father's education? MS: My father went to Temple University, got a degree in math. My mother was a high school graduate. They were married young. They were married in, if I get this wrong I'll be in trouble, March and my brother was born in January. Everyone was counting the months, but it wasn't. It was okay. They were cleared on that. None of my grandparents ever went to college. GE: Do you think they went to high school? MS: My paternal grandfather did. I don't know about anybody else. I just happen to know that he did. SC: And dry cleaning did have some connection for people that they might have started in dry cleaning and then on-- [unintelligible] MS: Saul Kivert. Actually it was my father who started that business and then he ended up at the factory. GE: So Mark, I want to now go back and just give us the history with the business. How your grandfather got started, when your father came in, and eventually when you came in. MS: Sure. So, as I said in the earlier conversation, my grandfather was sort of a 'Journeyman,' going around to factories and helping people be more efficient in what they were doing. That industry didn't exist then as consulting, although my grandfather would have been very wealthy having created a consulting business. They never went through any agencies. People would just, he would work for someone long enough and he just couldn't take it, and they would fight, and he would leave. He had a big-time temper, not violent, just loud. He didn't mean anything. So then they opened up the little place in Allentown. He got one client which was a company that made little girls' bathing suits for what we now call boutiques but then it was just children's stores because there weren't any Walmarts and K-marts in those days. So it was a specialty item and it was little kids' bathing suits. And they were high-end, and he always felt that if you made for high-end, you could always do a better living because no one was going to nickel or dime you because they could afford it on the other end. And he was the, this man, Mr. Paul Yellen, started this business and my grandfather was his contractor. They started together, so he never had another factory [contractor] and my grandfather never had another customer. Later on we did, but not at the beginning. And they did it all with a handshake, no contracts, nothing, it was all done with a handshake. GE: And where was Paul Yellen? MS: He was in New York. He had a small office on 34th St., I want to say 34th St., which got bigger later on in years, but at that point, it was small. And he did, his business was a very good business. They had good designs, they had good marketing, and they had quality production. My grandfather always believed in quality production. So they were outgrowing that space and they found the place at 4th and Green, like Washington, I'm sorry, Greenleaf and Washington, down on 4th St. And it was a low, long, flat building. And what they did was they moved, my grandfather only did Bru-Mar, the company's name, only did assembly and finishing. We didn't do cutting, we didn't do marker making, and we didn't do packing. Dive-ettes owned their own, they were always connected to us, as far as physically, but the spreading of the fabric and the making of the markers and the cutting-- all that was done in the same space, but that space was rented by, or they shared the lease, with Dive-ettes, that was Paul Yellin's company. And he had his own shipping area. So at one time, it wasn't even in the same building and that got very nonproductive. So they were in 4th Street for a while, until they built it bigger, and I would say in those days, my father maybe, my grandfather maybe had 35 to 40 or 50 operators. Then my father started to, my grandfather had a number of heart attacks, and my father started to do both--work at the factory and work at his 'Martinizing'-- his dry cleaning place. But it was mostly, he would mostly do the dry-cleaning place. It sort of ran on its own. But he was there like Thursday nights and Monday nights. Oh, by the way, to go back in history, one time my father was working for Surefit, he also worked at Hess' in the woman's shoe department. I think that's interesting to note because in those days he only worked Thursday nights cause that was the only night Town was open. For those of you who don't know what Town is, its where Hess' was, it was Town, and it was Thursday nights and Saturdays cause they weren't open any of the other nights anyways. So then his part time job, he split his time between the factory and the dry cleaning. The business became, it got to grow and the building at Seventh and Allen Street, which is still there, the building. The Levine's-- Jack Levine and Ben Levine, and another brother, who I never met-- were looking to and that's Ira and Robert and that generation, their fathers and my dad, they were all looking to expand this old building, which has been a Sears building. The building that was on Seventh and Allen that was a Sears building. They were trying to sell it. And it had four floors. And we wanted to have a floor for the cutting and the shipping, I'm sorry, for the shipping upstairs, cutting and sewing on our floor, and then the Levines were going to have the first floor for their fabric store, and the basement for their outlet. They used to do, I don't know if you have spoken to the Levines yet, but Robert would be a great source for you. I'll, and I tell Ira, and I'll mention it to them. So that was a big move because it was a major building. GE: And that was what time period? MS: I'm going to say that was in the, I'm going to say, I graduated high school and we were still at 4th Street. I'm going to say early '70s, '70/'71, I would think. Yeah, I think so. And there were a lot of renovations that happened. There were escalators in the middle of the building that needed to be taken out, closed off, things like that. And Dive-ettes was then signed to do big work for JCPenney and stuff like that but that was before JCPenny started to get really tight. It was, you know, we could do a, we did the Girl Scout bathing suits, you know, I remember that. So then we moved to the new building, and it started to grow again, still only one customer, they still had no other customers. Do you want me to continue on the history of it? GE: No, no, that's fine, that's great, yes. MS: Ok, so around 19--, actually I think we probably had the factory, the new building in the late 60s because I graduated, I finished college in '73, and by 1975 I was very back here, so yeah so I was here on that break and was starting to work it, and my grandfather was spending less and less time up here and more and more time in Florida for his health, and for my father's health, I think. My father was spending less time at the dry-cleaning stores, and more time at the factory, which was a larger income provider than the dry cleaners stores because it used to be very good but then there was more competition and things like that. And as fabrics changed, as synthetics came in, people could wash their own stuff, it changed the dry cleaning business tremendously. Plus fashions changed, people don't wear jackets all the time, so things changed. So I was now pretty much in a year and a half or so, pretty much a part of this business. I knew I was there for the long haul. GE: And at this point, it was you and your dad and-- MS: And my grandfather, and we all shared one big office. It was a real treat. GE: Okay, and now your grandfather, at this point, is not in the business too much. MS: No, but he's a full partner in it. GE: Okay. MS: And my father and him are equal partners, and I'm an employee. GE: Okay, okay. MS: It was smart on their part because I wasn't worth being a partner at that point. I didn't know anything. GE: Okay, and already your father for a while wasn't associated with Surefit. MS: Oh, yeah, he had, once he opened up his dry cleaning store.. GE: That was the end? MS: ...he was done with Surefit. Yeah. And Mr. Krasnov, he really liked Mr. Krasnov. He liked working at Surefit. Surefit taught him a lot. It was good. And anyway, after I realized that I was going to be there and I also realized, in my opinion, you couldn't have one customer. My feeling was if you only had one customer and that customer went out of business, you have no business or if that customer wanted to get it made cheaper, then you had no choice. By the same token my grandfather's line was, well, where is he going to go with all this production. He doesn't know anything about that, and he's never going to know anything about that. So they never did leave us. They eventually went out of business, that was a few years later. It was, I went, I was reading in the Ladies . . . , in the Women's Wear Daily, which was the trade paper for our trade, that this company called Bobby Brooks which you may have heard of but most of the generation doesn't know what it is, was looking for contractors for bathing suits. And that was our specialty and it was a different size area. It was Juniors. So I said to my father, let me look at this, because I said we have to have more customers here. And he was like, okay, we had someone else there, so it was fine. So I contacted them. They sent me, a man came out, Sam, I don't remember his last name, but he was funny. He came out, he checked out the factory, and he brought some garments in, garments that they weren't going to do. I went to the office and I priced them out, my father and I did. And by the way, we were very fancy with pricing. We took out a piece of paper, we said that must cost about, that would cost about and no engineer, no nothing. When it was all done, we made money. And my grandfather said, if I make for a dollar and sell it for two, as long as I make 1%. And I said okay. So we were doing very well, labor was the only thing that we sold, besides thread. And it was before unions, and while we paid a fair wage, you didn't have all of the union stuff to worry about. We never became, I'm getting ona different rant here, we never became a part of the ILGWU. Our operators didn't want it. They had a vote and they still, and they had their own, and my grandfather was smart enough back in the day to offer them the chance to unionize within their own place. So they had a charter, and he paid for it. They hired a lawyer, and they put it together. It was their own charter, and it made them a union house so ILGWU couldn't strike them or picket by us because we were a union house. We just weren't their union. And it worked out well for everybody. We never really had any problems. And we sometimes worked for union shops, we just didn't put a union label on it, it was against the law. And they would know that. They would come up and they would marshall it. Anyway, this Bobby Brooks thing came through, and we started to do work for them. And it was a big education for me and my father now because we had a big company with people in charge of shipping, and people in charge of. . . not us, I mean, Bobby Brooks' a big company that we are working for. They had people in charge of specs., people in charge of quality, so you had a million. . . And we weren't even used to that. We were used to us doing it all and just getting paid. Now we had to bill and get paid and it was different. But it was what saved our business because eventually Dive-ettes went out of business. And then we went from Juniors, to starting to work in Misses, then started to work for Rosemary Reed, Bill Blass, Oscar de la Renta. They were all part of the same buying group. We became one of their top contractors so now we had gone from little kids bathing suits, no longer doing that, to women's one or two pieces with full blown bras and, you know, stays and the whole bit, which you know, was a whole new world. At this point we were averaging about 85-100 operators all the time and in the busy season we'd have a second shift that would run from like, if our first shift was 7:30 to 3:00, I remember, then at the 4:00 to 9:00 we would have a second shift. Sometimes up to 50 operators, and we, myself, my father, and my foreman would run those. So each of us would take one night a week or two nights a week. I was the young guy so I got two nights a week. And that was a very busy busy time. Those years were really busy and very good for us. GE: And those were what time period? MS: You're talking about mid to late '70s into '96/'97. Around '98 we had already peaked and it had already started to, you could see the writing on the wall. By that point, we had looked at possibly moving our production to Puerto Rico, moved to Virginia. I had traveled to different places looking at places where the labor was more inexpensive. But it all, all said and done, we liked staying where we were. So the business grew, my grandfather was out of it, out of the business years ago before that, and he passed, I don't remember when exactly. And then we finally rebuilt the offices. and I actually have my own office after a while. It was, they were good years. They were tough years-- hard, hard, hard work. Lots of hours. But my whole world was revolved around it. My social events were based around it. And my friends that I went to conventions [with]. We did something very . . . and so did Tama Manufacturing, we invested in technology way before most people in the garment industry did. So one of the first things I wanted was we went from, we were hourly, and I felt that we needed to go piece-rate, and I'm sure you've heard someone talk about piece-rate here. GE: Right, right. But if you want to tell us about it. MS: Yeah, so the difference was you worked at our factory, and you would get an increase every year, let's say it was 25 cents an hour, whatever it was. So at that point, you're making $7 an hour, which may sound like a little bit now, well I shouldn't say that because there are some kids that make that now. But if you are making $7 an hour, it didn't matter if you made one of your operation that day or a thousand, you still got the same money per hour. So we felt that it was unfair to the productive operators, number one. Number two, it was a way, it was getting very costly for us not to go into some sort of a piece-rate system. So we brought on an engineer, I can't think of his name anymore, a young guy who had been at another factory. He was actually from, I don't remember where he was from, up by Pottstown somewhere. And good at what he did, very good. And then along with that computers are just starting to come out. I was very fascinated by them, and IBM was looking to get a foothold in the garment industry. So I had a meeting with some people at IBM, and we decided that we were going to invest in the technology. They were going to give us a programmer to basically live with us, learn what we did, and transfer that somehow to a computer, which would not fit in this room. Literally, well probably it would just fit in this room. And the consols are this big, and they did nothing but payroll. I mean a calculator does more now. So, but it was, at the time, quite a step, and we had this young man, Vince La Salle-- wow, how did I remember that name-- who was really into what we were doing. And we were able to create a piece rate system that didn't have to be hand put in. We actually used a wand, like you use in the grocery store now, we were talking, oh my gosh, I'm out 17 years, if you're talking 35 years ago when this stuff was really not happening. And we were setting up in the same time the Army-Navy store. I don't remember that last name, it'll come to me. They were also putting one in for their purposes, and that was right before they made their move out to Grape Street. They still had a place next to us, or two doors away. So we had an IBM34, which then became a 36, and two terminals, and it worked. It did a good job. It worked well enough that we, Vince and I, went as a dog and pony show to other factories who IBM was trying to sell the machinery. We have proprietary, we owned the program, and we actually sold it half a dozen times to other companies for the purpose of them to do piece-rate on IMB's new equipment. GE: By doing piece rate, did it bring down your operating costs? MS: Very much so. We were very productive. And it brought down, better than it brought down our, it brought up their earnings [the operators], there and more. The operators earned more. I made that a rule: if we are going to go piece-rate, if you worked hard, it was only going to fly, if the operators who worked hard made more than they are making now. So if there was, I wasn't going to-- GE: Some operators made more and some operators didn't I assume. MS: Right. And there was also the, they also couldn't make less than the minimum. That was written into our contract, which was fine. But some tried to make some operators, we called them girls, that's terrible, that's a throwback, what a sexist way the world we lived in. Operators were called girls, anyway. Yeah, so one of the things I was insistent on with my engineer was to make the rate, I'm worried that if they told me that an operation was going to cost 25 cents a garment, that's what I used to make my price. I don't care if it came out to 27 cents, that's not good. If it came to 20 cents or 21 cents, I don't care. Leave it at 25 cents, that's how I'm pricing that, let them make their money. I was happier that way and so were they for a long time. Then things got really interesting because I was not happy with the way the industry ran. The industry was cutting stacks of things this high and then there would be people who would run around and tie them into bundles which had the piece-rate ticket on it. So let's say that you're just making a bikini bottom, make it simple, a front and a back and a crotch piece. So you put a bundle of 24 or 36 together fronts and backs and the crotch pieces, and you tie them up with a little ticket. The operator would then reach into a bin, put it up to a table, have to untie it, put everything in an order, and then start to sew. So all the extraneous time, she wasn't producing for herself or for us. Well at one of the Bobbin Shows, that was the garment world's convention down in Atlanta, I was introduced to unit production. Unit of production meant that instead of an operator working on thirty six garments at a time in one bundle, she worked on one or two garments at a time on just her operation. And to make this easy, they had a system that used a hanger with a little clip on it that the people would feed into one end and would come to me as an operator, and I would just pick it up, line it up, do my operation, put it back on, push a button and it would go. Very revolutionary for the time, but also very smart because now all I had in production was cut work and finished work and a few hundred garments that were on the system. Where before, I could have three to four weeks worth of work piled up because you do all the making of things, all the elastic, all the cover, and then all of the trimming, and this way at the end of the day, you had finished work that you could ship. If you had to rush something to do, it was easy to do. Major, major investment and major, major consideration. It was not something that my father was, my father had a problem with the computer because he was a math guy. He couldn't understand this, what do you mean you do everything 0s and 1s, 0s and 1s. Well that's the way it works. Well, why don't they use 3s and 4, I don't know but it works this way. Binary system. So he was not, but then we took a trip out to Gerber. By the way, Gerber Garment Technology was the one we went into the Gerber Mover. There were other companies, Eton was the one that they had down at the Tama Manufacturing [Fogelman]. Because Mark and I talk about that now. Anyway, my father and I took a trip out to California to one of the customers that made bathing suits with this system. It literally took him [my father] an hour to realize what it was worth. We brought that in over a summer, introduced it to the operators, they were scared to death of it, as were we at first. But I really, I became an outspoken advocate for it, the system, writing articles for trade magazines, being brought down to the Bobbin Show by Gerber to talk to customers, going and doing consulting myself. Not for myself, for Gerber, and you know, the companies that made bathing suits. And I feel it saved our business. This was a major investment, I think it was a couple hundred thousand dollars. But it literally took our prices down and we were able to do them for half of what we could do before. There was no extraneous labor. GE: Right, so you're saying your costs.. MS: Costs dropped, cost of labor dropped. GE: Right, right. MS: In the interim we had a, when I first started, when the business first started, and I don't know what other people have said to you, the garment worker then was almost all Caucasian, and around here Pennsylvania Dutch, German, Slovak, whatever those Eastern European backgrounds were. They were all women with kids and their purpose was to make sure their kids didn't have to be in the factory. They worked so you didn't have to, you could go to college. And it worked. So there were no natural, there were no heir apparent to those positions. So for us, what happened was the next wave of immigration that came in, and that was the first time we had Hispanics and Asians coming to work for us. And it was not an easy transition for a lot of the people who worked for us. And one thing that made unit production work is that you weren't dependent on anybody else for your work. It goes through that system and there was always something feeding, so people didn't get into squabbles. But it was interesting because now we had a language situation, which we weren't prepared for. So at first it was Hispanics, mostly Puerto Rican, I think, I don't know that for fact because I never bothered. Now I would try to find out their country of origin because I'm more attune to that. Back then it was, you just assume that they are from Puerto Rico. And then our Koreans, that was our Asian immigrants and then Vietnamese. And it was interesting what happened was a lot of the Asians . . . again the Hispanics did the same exact thing that the Pennsylvania Dutch had done before. I say that generically, they worked so that their kids didn't have to. Not that they didn't have to work, but that they could go to college and do better for themselves. And we had a small amount of Syrian/Lebanese workers but that was not, not a lot of Atiyahs or that, it was mostly Hispanic. And then when the Asians came in, they had a different attitude. They wanted to learn the business because they were going to, they thought the business made sense. So the change was we still needed as many operators but now we had to go to different places to get them. And it was tough to get operators. I mean there were battles in town. GE: There was a real dearth. MS: Yeah. There were not enough sewing operators and more jobs to go and what was really interesting, and this goes back to one of my few real bad moments in the business, we had a quarter page ad running in the Morning Call about needing operators and you know benefits and anything else, right in the Morning Call. And the company . . . Al . . .he was was married to Dorney Park's, the girl who married Dorney Park's owner-- GE: Was that Weinstein? MS: Yes, Weinstein. Harris's son-in-law. Yeah, Harris' son in law, Al Simmons, Albert Simmons, came in and was running a factory in downtown Allentown. And somehow or other he got the Morning Call to run an article saying that it's unbelievable that there are actually sewing jobs available at this place. I'm running an ad that in those days are costing me a couple hundred dollars a week, and they're running an article . . . I lost it on the Morning Call, I just went nuts, and he and I did not get to be friends. But there was a friendly competition for the labor. We subcontracted once a while. Oh, one of the things that saved us, our industry, us as a company, was that we were the first to work with spandex. When we first started making bathing suits, everything was cotton. It was a cotton poly-blend. When Lycra first came out, no one knew how far it was going to stretch. So everything had to be changed because the same setting of stitches that you would use for cotton, which only went so far, would snap if you, because spandex went forever. I mean we were, we made, and I guess Tama did at one point too, because of the stretch pants. We made the leotard, the top leotard for Danskin because we would just make hundreds and hundreds of dozens in pure white that they would dye the color they wanted. Because we knew how to work, what saved us was knowing how to work with that fabric. That is when athletic gear became big, in Jane Fonda years, before she bankrupted the industry. That was where we came in, 'oh you need something done with stretch, go to Bru-Mar, go to Bru-mar.' We started to become, we were still higher end, but those companies started to go out. Rosemary-Reed closed up, Oscar de la Renta went overseas, Bill Blass not so much. And then what happened with the industry, it's interesting because it started off in boutiques then it went to mainstream and it's still mainstream but that's not produced domestically, most of that's produced overseas, so that your Walmarts and Targets, those are not made domestically. But the domestic shops are making now, if they are around, are making it for the real top designers, the ones that make very small lots. And you can't make, you can't have a big factory going. Yeah so in around, by around 1998 or1999, you can start to see, I mean most of the people were closing all over the place. The things that were staying open were small shops. Jick had come and gone by then, that was one of the big companies in town. GE: Who was that? MS: Jick. That was John Klein and, that was where the name came from, and Joe Jaffe and, oh my gosh-- GE: Were they also bathing suits? MS: No, no, they were a big company that did, they were just big in town, used a lot of contractors. And that was a, that company was big, and they closed, and suddenly they were gone. And all that work dried up is all I'm saying. So now all of a sudden there were a lot of operators who worked for them. And we were starting to lay off, we always laid-off in the summer, but we were starting to lay off already in late spring. Night shift wasn't running. It was getting tougher and tougher for us to get paid. We were, you know, we were doing okay, we were used to having, I would just transfer money over to the payroll account, and now we sort of had to wait for checks to come in. It's no way to run a business, you can't work that way. And so we started to look at.. GE: And this is what? MS: Late 1990s. And in 1999, Jill and I got married in September, and by the end of that year, by the winter of 2000, I was already closed. It was a gradual thing and then I saw the writing on the wall, and I knew I would end up owing somebody something. And basically it had to do with the, I would have stayed open for a little while longer but the owners, we had at one time sold the building to some people who neglected it and didn't. . . We ended up doing our own heat and air conditioning. Anyway, we knew that they were trying to sell the building. So we kind of got out of Dodge, sold our machinery off, our inventory, what was there, and yeah, it was a closed door. I had already started in the fall, in the winter of 2000, like January 2000, I had already been asked to help out directing the play at the new high school-- the high school had just opened. And the woman directing it, up to then was used to a very small stage, and she just wanted some help. She felt a little overwhelmed. And David Klasko actually said 'oh, you should talk to Mark Stutz, he's my neighbor, he knows everything about--' Anyway she called me, and I came up, I came to the school. I always say, I'm like the man who came to dinner. I came to the school to direct that show, which came out in the spring of 2000. I fell in love with the kids, I fell in love with the process. I had never experienced anything like it. I was lucky enough that the woman who had been directing the shows until then retired that summer. They brought me back in, just as a play director for two shows, just a couple thousand dollars, not even worth talking about. I was lucky enough to have just gotten remarried to a woman who understood, and all four kids lived with us, understood that that was my passion and was willing to be there for four kids instead of just her two daughters in the evenings, because I never came home again, because you know it's lots of work. And I did that for about two and a half years with the school, helped build up that program. Then they realized that they needed somebody to manage their arts program, and I was fortunate enough to get that job. And I've been doing that now for thirteen and a half years, fourteen year. GE: Wow, so you had, that really worked out beautifully from one to the other. MS: Yeah, it did. There were a couple of years, a couple of lean years there but, you know, I did other things, you know, I did some other jobs in between. There was still some money left from closing the business for myself and my secretary, for about a year closing up business. GE: So up until the end you were at the building on Seventh Street? MS: Yes. GE: Okay. And, um, you no longer owned it initially? MS: No, we did not own it anymore. Levines had moved back over to Tilghman Street. They were trying to build where the movie theater is. Tilghman Square, whichever that is, I don't know. And they were, the builder was trying actually to build the center around Levines to make them the focal point. So they moved there and they have been there. And they worked for a while. That home sewing business is not what it was either. SC: Did they also have franchises in-- MS: Yup, they have franchises in a bunch of places. I don't know what happened to them. GE: Right, right. I think, Mark, you did a great job. I think that's really...\ MS: Thank you. Thank you, it was fun to reminisce. SC: Now we just have a couple of other questions. MS: Uh oh, thought questions. What I'm thinking about is that my phone's buzzed about a hundred times in my pocket, and I can't imagine what I've got going on there. GE: You gave us a very good story though. SC: Oh, yeah. GE: You gave a lot of good information. I didn't know that you were, that the Levines. I didn't know that you had that association with them. And we did an interview last week with Marty Krasnov. SC: Right. MS: Oh, did you? Oh wow. SC: Okay, so my crazy questions are first of all, what has made you feel the most creative in life? MS: Well, certainly nothing in the garment industry made me, and just so you have this on record, I will say it, I hated the last 12-15 years of the career. Hated it. Hated every . . . I felt like there were so many important things happening in the world, and I was wondering whether or not Macy's got their bathing suits a day late. And stressing about it and fighting with buyers about it and having real issues about . . . and there were people out in wars and doctors, and people. I understand the reality that it's not just that bathing suit because that bathing suit then means that the person who sells the bathing suit on the floor of the store loses their job if we don't make it. And, you know, I understand that there is a certain amount of . . . but it just didn't seem that important to me to make everyone go crazy about it. So it was very unsatisfying. Now understand I never . . . until I got divorced with my two boys that lived with me, I did theatre all the time. I worked at Civic, I directed before Bill came in as a full time director, I directed at Civic, Pennsylvania Playhouse, Guthsville Playhouse, I directed all the time. I was always doing something theatrically because it's part of who I am, and I couldn't get away from that. But I think the most satisfying thing I've done creatively has been make sure, making sure that the arts, music and theatre and dance and visual arts are never going to leave the Parkland School District. That was done by educating not just the kids, but the parents, and not just the people who come to the spring musical, but the kids who paint and draw and dance, creating a dance team, creating a festival of the arts. Things that we've done to ensure that that is now one of the three pillars of our superintendent's stance on education. Because that's, I don't have a legacy from the garment industry. No one, well I don't want to say no one does, obviously people do, but I don't. My kids sort of kind of remember the unit production system. That's probably it. And that's okay. The legacy that I'm leaving, or I hope to leave, is all about public education and the arts. That's what I keep doing and going to . . . and I'm learning more about diversity. I didn't know how to handle the diversity that I had in my factory because I didn't know the language. I'm now dealing with that at the school district because our demographics are changing. And I'm speaking at a conference in Dallas in October and it's a discussion panel about how do you bring in diversity when you have got such a standard already set-- kids taking private lessons, private dance, private voice. How does a kid who's, you know, on the border line of that, get involved because if they are competing against it, and it could be sports too.But if they are competing against that trained person, when do they get their chance. So, it's an exciting time, and I hope to do it for about another five years, and I don't know what I'll do after that, we'll see. SC: And what do you value most in life? MS: My family. It's not even a question. They come, they're, they come before anything. And not just my mother and my wife and my kids, but my step-kids, and their significant others, their boyfriends and girlfriends. Family, I wouldn't be where I am today if I hadn't grown up with a family that had great strong family values. My kids have strong family values. And I think that that is, and that's a challenge for a lot of people who don't. I raised my kids as a single dad for a while. Their mom was in town, but they wanted to be with me. They were boys, and they wanted to be with their dad. You know, I lived, I never moved out of the house, and that's where they grew up . . . and that is, that house, that sofa that I tried to get rid of and now I have to put in the living room because the kids say 'where are we all going to sit when we all come?' Well you all are going to come? I got two in Denver, one in Baltimore, one in Philly, one in Bethlehem. How are you..well they do, they all show up. And on Father's day, they were either with me or with their dads or one was with my mom down in Florida. So they value family. So that answer is simple, my family. Other than that it is my integrity. My family and my integrity. That's it. SC: Is there anything else that you would like to say, just for the record? MS: I think this is a great project that you are doing. I think that it is a shame that we didn't do this when we were all younger when we had more memory cells left because there are names that I know I have, and I'll find them, and I'll write them down, and I'll call you with them. But it's something that our, that this generation, doesn't understand. The silk mills were the start of it, and we always called them silk mills, but we weren't silk mills, we were factories. The fabric companies that were in town, the Schneiders. GE: [unintelligible]..we interviewed him MS: No, they were a factory. Howie Schneider, and I don't remember his company's name. They made fabric. GE: Only fabric maker that we spoke to was Finkelstein. MS: Well Fabknit was one, but they're not in town, there's only one. And there were other bathing suits people around . . . Bobby [Feinberg] . . . there was another, it was big, they were a big factory compared to us [Sea Nymph]. There were like 250 people. And then in Easton there was A& ; H, Pembrook Swimsuits. So there we had a lot of swimsuit factories in the area. So yeah. SC: Do you think there is an advantage to having a smaller factory where it's easier in and easier out in some ways? MS: Well it's the same way with a cast of a show, like a big cast show or a small cast show. Each one has its own problems. Each one has its own advantages. When I directed Our Town with 35 or 36 people, my director directs Titanic last year and he had 60 people in the cast. Thirty people in the pit, and thirty people on crew, it's great but there is a lot of people to manage. It is a lot of ins and outs. But there is a big value to it because a lot of people get [some] benefit from it. I'm doing a show this fall with six kids in it, so the advantage is that I can get really close with six kids, bring out something that they've never had the opportunity to do. And it's good for them. So, there is advantages to both. I think the answer quite frankly is, it sounds like a cop-out, but midsize. Family run, 50, 60, 70 operators was when we were ideal because we could control everything, and everyone knew our name, we knew their name, and we knew their kids. It was different. GE: Mark, Mark, just a couple of quick little questions for refining. So I know at the beginning when you were working with that Dive-ettess company, you just did sewing. How about with the others? MS: Well then we started to do cutting-- GE: So then you were doing cutting and sewing. MS: Cutting and sewing, and then we were . . . we became cutting, sewing, finishing, which we actually tagged it, folded it, bagged it. We had a bagger, the whole thing. GE: Okay, okay. Right, so then you did the whole thing. Okay, got it. SC: And would you spell that company, just for the future? MS: D-I-V-E- [hyphen] -E-T-T-E-S. Dive-ettes. GE: And, um, just one last...what do you, why do you think that the Jewish community was over-represented in this industry? As owners. MS: Over represented? GE: Yeah. In other words, they had a substantial... MS: Um, well I think it's the same mentality that why there's so many, and not to be, I don't mean this in the wrong way, the Korean Market mentality. That everyone wanted to have their own piece of the American Dream, not work for someone else. But they all did at first, and then they went into their own businesses, and then the families started to depend on those businesses, so the second generation came in. I don't know how many went past a third generation. I think you'd find very few. GE: Right. MS: Not just because of the attrition of the industry, but in the interest of the industry. I mean in Paris Neckwear, Nate Braunstein, have you spoken to him? GE: Mhm. MS: I mean, that was a huge business at one time. The manufacturing is all somewhere else now. The Mendelsohns . . . You know, and that was third, it's the last generation of that company, you know, family wise. And I think that's what happens. I think either they don't care or can't maintain. . . Different generations, they just get bigger and bigger because there's, it's just that growth, you know .. .it's like network marketing. And you know . . . now there are twelve families that you're trying to feed out of one factory. I think it's hard. I think that it's over-represented in the sense that they understood the value of property. It's been drummed into them, us, forever of you know you can't kick me out of my country if I am important. You know, they've kicked, you know, Tevya's been kicked, moved around a lot, and that's why we still wear our hats. But, it's, I think it is the fear of someone else trying to control you, or the fact that you wanted to be self-reliant. The same reason I think they become doctors and lawyers. You could say we were over-represented in that at one time or in the world of musical theatre, the same thing, it comes from the traditions and family is a big part of it. GE: Okay, thank you. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:09:14
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Mark Stutz, June 27, 2016
Description
An account of the resource
Mark Stutz talks about how his grandfather started in the children’s bathing suit sewing business with one customer. That relationship held for a few decades while that company remained in business. Later, Mark’s father and he ran the business. Over time, they got into producing high end women’s bathing suits. During the years Mark worked in the business, he stayed active in local theatre both as an actor and director. Later he was able to pivot and became the Director of Fine Arts at Parkland High School .
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LVTNT-22
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-06-27
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.
-
https://textile.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/65a8412cd3495a0631e741f8ab8c2af5.png
89935d484ee66fb732393efd8d9e6334
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Marlene Finkelstein
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-23.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 June 23, 2014 Marlene Finkelstein, June 23, 2014 LVTNT-23 1:00:56 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Marlene Finkelstein Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 FinkelsteinMarlene_20140623 1.0:|21(4)|36(6)|53(5)|68(15)|85(6)|100(7)|119(10)|136(2)|147(7)|162(2)|175(4)|188(17)|205(11)|224(3)|239(13)|256(8)|273(5)|294(3)|313(5)|326(15)|341(10)|360(16)|377(14)|396(3)|411(6)|430(10)|447(10)|468(2)|495(12)|520(7)|539(2)|560(3)|583(13)|600(16)|619(5)|642(11)|669(11)|694(14)|715(16)|732(15)|757(17)|774(8)|791(3)|804(3)|823(8)|844(10)|863(10)|884(4)|911(6)|928(19)|945(8)|960(17)|979(8)|1008(8)|1035(6)|1058(5)|1081(7)|1098(13)|1119(3)|1156(6)|1173(10) 0 https://youtu.be/_gD3b7chGqs YouTube video 0 Introduction - Marlene Finkelstein née Freedman SC: Today is Monday, June 23rd 2014 and interview with Marlene Finkelstein. So can you say your whole name, when you were born, where you were born to put yourself into context.
 ; 
 ; MF: Sure, I'm Marlene, my middle name Barbara, that I never use, and my maiden name is Friedman and I was born on January 29, 1943. I believe in the Bronx in New York. 0 43 Family History—Mother's Childhood, 1914 to 1930 SC: So can we go back to your parents and grandparents and great grandparents? As far back as you know. Whatever you can do.
 ; 
 ; MF: I don't know as much about my mother's family. My mother's name was Marilyn Friedman - actually, her real name I believe was Minnie, and she hated that name and eventually legally changed it to Marilyn. Her maiden name was Sobel, and she was the daughter of Molly and Joseph Sobel, both of whom I believe were born in the States. I never knew either one of them ; they both died before I was born. As a matter of fact my mother's mother died when my mother was 9 years old. Her father wasn't a nice man, so she told me. He had another woman he was keeping while he had his wife and six children to care for. Their life was not a good one and when my mother's mother, Molly died, my mother was nine, her father took my mother's three older siblings and went to Boston and married the woman that he had been seeing. And actually had a couple more children with her who I - I have relatives somewhere that I have no knowledge of. And my mother refused to go with him because she was very angry with him, and she had two younger brothers. They went to live with an aunt for a short period of time, and the aunt couldn't keep them, so they went into an orphanage. 0 305 Father's Family History MF: My father is Sydney Freidman. His real name was Joshua. And the Hebrew version of Joshua was Yahushua. The Yiddish diminutive version was Shia so they called him Shia. But when he started school, they told his mother that he needed a more English name, so they came up with Sydney. Joshua certainly would have been preferable, but that's what it was.
 ; 
 ; SC: Do you know your mothers birth date? 
 ; 
 ; MF: Yes, it was June 15th, 1914.
 ; 
 ; SC: And how about your father’s?
 ; 
 ; MF: And my father's was January 22nd, 1913. So they were close in age, and my father told the story that they lived around the comer, I guess that rumor got around that there was a very cute young woman living with Aunt Sarah, and so he had to go check it out for himself. And that's how my parents met. So that's kind of a nice story. 0 742 Guardians of Young Judaea Orphanage MF: And my cousin went to the orphanage, which is now like a community center or whatever, and asked if they might still have the records. And lo and behold, down in the basement, I have goosebumps, they still had the records. So I got together with all my cousins this past fall, and they brought the records which was amazing to read and learn about and get to see, even as a social worker, to get to see how- and everything was hand written notes, and they were really just focused on the physical health of the children. I mean there was no discussion in any of the notes about their mental health, which I found fascinating. They were concerned that Helen was wetting the bed, which would probably have been very normal reactions of young children whose family was, you know disrupted, and so on. But, I was a little appalled by this... I discovered they were doing vaginal exams on these young girls. I don't know why. I would love to find out why. But I found that very upsetting to read that. Whether they were looking for some kind of infection that might have been causing the bedwetting, you know use your head.
 ; 
 ; SC: Do you know if it was a religiously connected orphanage or if it was a settlement house type.
 ; 
 ; MF: It was called something like, the Guardians of Young Judea, it was definitely Jewish affiliated facility. 0 1125 Marlene Finkelstein's Childhood and Education SC: So, can you talk about your childhood, and your schooling, and any work that you've had from doing something really small when you were young all the way through.
 ; 
 ; MF: I could try, I was born, as I said, I think it was Montefiore Hospital, in the Bronx, or it might have just been in Manhattan-- January 29, 1943. It was the war years, and soon after I was born, my father was drafted into the navy. And my mother who was pretty disconnected from her family, I mean she had no contact with her father or - she had one sister who she stayed close to, Elsie, and Artie. Otherwise, she really didn't have- she had taken my father's family. That really was her family. So when my father was drafted, my mother was in a panic, and she went and lived with Judith, my father's older sister, and her husband, Mike, who was, I guess was 4F, he had some back issues, whatever, so he didn't get drafted. You know, was absolved. And so we lived with them, and Judith and Mike had two sons, Elliot, who was three years older than me, and Robert, who was two months younger than I am. We lost Elliot two years ago to lung cancer. But, Robert and I are still close. 0 1765 College and Career SC: So you were in college, you went to college.
 ; 
 ; MF: I did.
 ; 
 ; SC: And after college, or during college, can you go from that point on?
 ; 
 ; MF: Sure, sure. By the way, I knew I wanted to be a psychologist, therapist, counselor, whatever, when I was about 6 years old. I didn't even know the name for it but I was sort of fascinated by that. And when I went to college, and I said I wanted to major in psychology, my mother was very disapproving. And she certainly didn't want me to be a social worker because, you know, what kind of job is that? 0 1810 Mother's Involvement in the Garment Industry MF: My mother considered herself a business woman. I should have mentioned this. But my mother worked. Which was unusual in those days, she worked because she wasn't satisfied that my father was making enough money. But she was very proud about the fact that she could work, and she never even graduated high school, I don't believe. And she was a bookkeeper. And she was a very good bookkeeper, and she had worked in the garment industry for a while. As a bookkeeper with my uncle Mike, Judith's husband, who was the controller in the same office where my mother was a bookkeeper.
 ; 
 ; SC: Were they manufacturers? Do you know?
 ; 
 ; MF: Yes, they were manufacturers. They were making... what were they making? It wasn't they might have been making... they were making clothes of some kind... because when my mother went back to work, she felt very guilty, and she came home at the end of the first week, or when she got paid, with a little outfit for me. 0 1961 Meeting Arnie Finkelstein MF: Hunter College meant commuting. And it was an all-girls school, but you know, I dated a lot and those were the days that we dated. In the meantime, my Uncle Mike, who had worked in the garment industry, he had a longing to own his own business, he wanted like a women's clothing store, dress shop, or whatever. And he bought a place called Dobnoffs, in downtown Allentown. And so they left New York, Aunt Judith and Uncle Mike, and moved to Allentown in 1960? About that.
 ; 
 ; AF: Right around there.
 ; 
 ; MF: Yeah, I graduated high school in ‘59 I guess, and I started college in ‘59 so it was ‘61. My aunt lived on Livingston Street, my aunt and uncle. And, she had a next door neighbor named Ruth Bloom, who saw my picture in my aunt's house and said she'd be nice for Mina's son. So Mina's son was in the air force in Oklahoma, at the time. And I got a call from my aunt, in June, I had just finished my final exams, and I wanted to go party, and she told my mother I had to come out, that she had a nice boy for me to meet. 0 2247 Israel "Ukie" Freedman and Kirkland Hall Suits MF: [M]y parents didn't have a lot of money, but my Uncle Ukie, that was my father's second younger brother.
 ; 
 ; SC: Israel.
 ; 
 ; MF: Right. He married very late, he never had children, and there was a period of time he lived with us, and he adored me. He was- I- you know the sun rose and set with me. And he was a salesman in the garment industry for a company called Kirkland Hall Suits. I think I still have a couple of his suits hanging in the closet because I can't bear to get rid of them. But he had the wherewithal to send me to camp. 0 2442 The '60s—Marriage, Children, Teaching, and Volunteer Work GE: February 63' is when you got married.
 ; 
 ; MF: Yes February 24, 1963. So yeah there was no time to work then. I think I might have- I remember a little job working at a JCC with a group of girls, you know, briefly. But that was- it might have been in that period of time. And then I came out to Allentown as a new bride. And I was Mina Finkelstein's Daughter in law. Everybody knew my mother in law because she was this beautiful woman who really had a spell on the community. And she was president of the sisterhood, and she'd been president of Hadassah and was - and I was very open to her. She had great style, and she taught me lots of things and so I she made me a life member of Hadassah right away and the sisterhood, and I got involved in a lot of the organizations. But I also had a teaching degree, so- I mean you can't do much with a bachelors in psychology, and I thought about graduate school, but I wasn't clear yet where I wanted to go, or what I wanted. So my aunt Judith arranged for me to meet Judy Freeman, who ran the nursery school at the JCC. And Judy was thrilled and she hired me right away, and so I worked for two years at the JCC, Miss Marlene. And I still have some of my earliest students, my three and four year olds, still call me Miss Marlene when they see me today, which is hysterical. 0 2640 Inspiration for "Hakol"—Jewish Community Newspaper MF: Maxine and I met the first year as a new bride here. I was very lonely, and everyone said to me. Wait, Maxine Kivert is going to come back to town. When you meet her, you and Maxine are going to be great friends. And, Maxine knew about me because before Arnan met me, he had dated another girl in town who Maxine was friendly with, so Maxine knew about me, and I knew about her. And we met I think at an-- I remember at an ORT-- yeah, I was involved with the ORT also... event. And we knew each other. I mean we just immediately knew each other. And we became very fast friends. Both our husbands were in the textile business, so that was... And she went on to have three daughters, and we had three daughters ha-ha. So we had a lot of connections. And the first thing that Maxine and I did together was we started a Hadassah Study Group. There was a Woman's Study Group that my mother in law belonged to. And the older women belonged to. But we had children, and we were home during the day, it was harder to get babysitters. So we started an evening study group. That was just fabulous. And the first year we asked the rabbis to come and talk, and at the end of that we said, you know we're all college graduates, we can do a better job than they did. They sort of were winging it, so we would pick a topic. Hadassah would give us some ideas, and we would give out the assignments. 0 2965 Returning to School—Master's of Social Work and the Alliance for Creative Development MF: I was also still involved in study groups and I remember giving a paper. There were two in a row, one was on interestingly, the growing threat of radical Islam, and um, I remember I learned all about the Shiites, and the Sunni's and so on. And one was on Theodore Herzl. And I remember coming home and Arnan said, how did it go, and I said, it was an A paper. It's time for me to go back to school, and you know, do it for myself. So I knew I wanted psychology. I started looking around for a program, and, by the way, I was also on the board of Jewish Family Service. And, Amy Miller Cohen, who was a psychologist in Bethlehem, I had given the paper at her house. And I was talking with her about going back to school and getting a masters, and she said to me, “Marlene, go get an MSW.” and I said, “Really?” And she said, “It'll take you less time, you're not a little kid anymore,” I was about 37, 38, and she said, “and you'll do what you want to do. '' So Marywood had a program at DeSales. And so I went. It took me three years because it was a part time program, but I got my MSW, and I had interned at Quakertown Hospital in the Psychiatric unit as part of the program, and I stayed on there, and worked in patient psyche for another ten years. And it was with a group called the Alliance for Creative Development. We were psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers-- creative therapists. It was a wonderful program, it was before managed care and all that stuff. And where we really could work with patients as a team and see results. It was a very very exciting time. 0 3200 Involvement in Husband's Textile Business GE: What relationship or what connections did you have to the family business, if any?
 ; 
 ; MF: Well, we tried for about two weeks for me to come keep some books for you. That didn't work. Ha-ha
 ; 
 ; AM: She was our model. Every so often we would have an experimental- 
 ; 
 ; MF: Oh this is a very funny story.
 ; 
 ; AF: Yeah,
 ; 
 ; MF: I had, I've always had a dressmaker because of my size, whatever I would always buy always had to be fixed. So Arnan had this new experimental fabric that they were making.
 ; 
 ; AF: Well we were just playing with it.
 ; 
 ; MF: Yeah, so I took it to my dressmaker, this is before we were married, and she made me a bathing suit out of it for our honeymoon. 0 3337 Relationship with in-Laws MF: I had a pretty wonderful and loving relationship with my in-laws, especially with my mother-in-law. My father-in-law was a quiet man, he didn't talk very much. And most of the time he wanted to talk to Arnan about business things. But he would come over to see the grandchildren, I still joke about - he would look, he would see they were okay, and then he would say, “Okay Mina Finkelstein, it's time to go home!” And she would say, “George! We just got here!” 
 ; 
 ; GE: Where did they live?
 ; 
 ; MF: They lived on Livingston and twenty . . . and Ott. On the corner of Livingston and Ott. And our prior home was on 26th and Highland. So we were always in close proximity. 0 3399 Marlene Finkelstein's Values and Creative Inspirations SC: What do you value most in life? 
 ; 
 ; MF: Well, probably my family, first and foremost, and the connections and the relationships. I would have to make that you know...
 ; 
 ; SC: Yes. And what has made you feel the most creative or artistic in the broadest sense, or completed in life.
 ; 
 ; MF: Well, I think I have a great sense of accomplishment about the newspaper, not the fact that I helped to start it, and it's still an ongoing institution, I think feels very wonderful. 0 3542 The Hakol Today GE: [W]ith the Hakol, so you started, you were there for about four years, then it went on for another year, I know of it today, tell me did it lapse?
 ; 
 ; MF: No it didn't lapse, it-
 ; 
 ; GE: So it continued the whole-
 ; 
 ; MF: But it wasn't until I'm trying to remember, did Ned Shulman do it? Maggie Levine was still here.
 ; 
 ; AF: No.
 ; 
 ; GE: I know Sharon Bernstein I think I think at one point maybe- 
 ; 
 ; MF: Yeah that was a while-
 ; 
 ; AF: Somebody took it over after you know- 
 ; 
 ; MF: Whoever did it until they finally-
 ; 
 ; AF: But then it became professional. 0 MovingImage Marlene Finkelstein talks about growing up in New York City, attending Hunter College, and then coming to Allentown at the suggestion of her aunt and uncle to meet a nice young man, Arnan Finkelstein. After Marlene married Arnan and moved to Allentown she started a family and got immersed in the Jewish community. Marlene and her dear friend Maxine Tanenbaum (now Kline) started an evening Hadassah study session and later the Hakol (monthly Jewish newspaper published by the Jewish Federation). Marlene returned to school part-time to earn an MSW (Masters of Social Work). She then worked in the field of psychology/social work for more than twenty-five years. .
 ; Interview with Marlene Finkelstein, June 23, 2014 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is Monday, June 23rd 2014 and interview with Marlene Finkelstein. So can you say your whole name, when you were born, where you were born to put yourself into context. MARLENE FINKELSTEIN: Sure, I'm Marlene, my middle name Barbara, that I never use, and my maiden name is Friedman and I was born on January 29, 1943. I believe in the Bronx in New York. SC: So can we go back to your parents and grandparents and great grandparents? As far back as you know. Whatever you can do. MF: I don't know as much about my mother's family. My mother's name was Marilyn Friedman - actually, her real name I believe was Minnie, and she hated that name and eventually legally changed it to Marilyn. Her maiden name was Sobel, and she was the daughter of Molly and Joseph Sobel, both of whom I believe were born in the States. I never knew either one of them ; they both died before I was born. As a matter of fact my mother's mother died when my mother was 9 years old. Her father wasn't a nice man, so she told me. He had another woman he was keeping while he had his wife and six children to care for. Their life was not a good one and when my mother's mother, Molly died, my mother was nine, her father took my mother's three older siblings and went to Boston and married the woman that he had been seeing. And actually had a couple more children with her who I - I have relatives somewhere that I have no knowledge of. And my mother refused to go with him because she was very angry with him, and she had two younger brothers. They went to live with an aunt for a short period of time, and the aunt couldn't keep them, so they went into an orphanage. And in the orphanage, her youngest- no her next brother, there were two brothers, Sammy and Artie. Sammy was closer in age to her, I guess. And he apparently ran out, and jumped on the back of a truck and was killed on her watch. So, I think that affected her deeply. But she always looked after Artie, her younger brother. And they went onto foster care, he with her. And that was a very negative experience for her, as well. She felt like she was kind of a Cinderella person, treated like a servant in the house, but they put on a good front. They were German Jews and historically, the German Jews weren't terribly uh, fond of uh, the Polish, Russian Jews. They thought they were beneath them and apparently treated my mother accordingly. My mother was always very vocal about not liking German Jews because of that. So when she turned sixteen, she went to the um, offices where they had... placed her and told them that she was sixteen, she knew she could get working papers, and she wanted to go get a job. And she was not going back to that house anymore. And there was a woman in the office who said, where will you go tonight, and she said, "I don't know, and I don't care, but I'm not going back there." And she said, "Well, my mother sometimes takes in borders. Why don't you come home with me?" And that turned out to be my father's cousins so that's how my mother met my father. My father is Sydney Freidman. His real name was Joshua. And the Hebrew version of Joshua was Yahushua. The Yiddish diminutive version was Shia so they called him Shia. But when he started school, they told his mother that he needed a more English name, so they came up with Sydney. Joshua certainly would have been preferable, but that's what it was. SC: Do you know your mothers birth date? MF: Yes, it was June 15th, 1914. SC: And how about your father's? MF: And my father's was January 22nd, 1913. So they were close in age, and my father told the story that they lived around the comer, I guess that rumor got around that there was a very cute young woman living with Aunt Sarah, and so he had to go check it out for himself. And that's how my parents met. So that's kind of a nice story. SC: It is. Do you know where in Poland/Russia they came from, what town? Each of the families. MF: No, I know my father's... grandparents came from somewhere in the Pale of Settlement, around . . . it could have been around Kiev. Arnan, do you know? They actually, it was an interesting story because the mother's-- this is my father's grandmother-- her name- I actually have a picture of them, it's amazing. Her name, I believe, was Yetta and her last name was Kleinman. She married a man named Fayvel Livinstein. ARNAN FINKELSTEIN: Levinstein. MF: Levinstein. But he took her family name to avoid the Russian draft. Which was very bad in those years. So that they were able to leave and get out of Russia and come to this country. They had four sons, and then Rebecca, my father's mother, and then one more son, Philip, who ultimately became a rabbi out in, first in Minneapolis, and then he went on to Portland, Oregon. And actually I'm still in touch with his granddaughter. But it was a very large family. And this Aunt Sarah, was the wife of one of Rebecca's brothers so they were all first cousins to my father. And they had, I don't know, about six daughters. That the family, my mother went to live with, was named Kleinman. And so I probably know more about the Kleinmen family. My understanding is that she met my father's father, whose name was Wolf Frieman, and he was from I believe Tarnogrod, which was - I'm not sure if that was Poland or . . . Arnan - pictures hanging downstairs, and it has the name and the date on it. It's to the left of the bookcase. . . I don't know much about my grandfather except- my father's father. Except that he was the only grandparent I knew. Rebecca also died very young. She was 38. Also a similar kind of story. My father's mother, Rebecca Klienman, died after- she also had six children. And my father was the second oldest, the oldest was Judith, who plays a role in how I met Arnie, and then there were two brothers, Heshie and Ukie. It was Hershel I guess and Yisrael, there. And then Helen and Ruthie. And when Rebecca died, at the age of 38, Ruthie the youngest, was about a year and a half, and my grandfather who was a sweet man, had no ability to earn a living, he could daven well, but that was pretty much it. And so he -I don't know, he sold Encyclopedia Judaica. No, Britannica. You know the encyclopedias door to door, or whatever he could. And he went to- uh, I guess orphanages were not uncommon then, and he kept Judith and my father with him, I believe to take care of him, and the next two, Heshie and Ukie, went to live with an Aunt. And the two youngest, Helen and Ruthie, went into an orphanage. Helen died this past spring. She was the last of the six. And my cousin went to the orphanage, which is now like a community center or whatever, and asked if they might still have the records. And lo and behold, down in the basement, I have goosebumps, they still had the records. So I got together with all my cousins this past fall, and they brought the records which was amazing to read and learn about and get to see, even as a social worker, to get to see how- and everything was hand written notes, and they were really just focused on the physical health of the children. I mean there was no discussion in any of the notes about their mental health, which I found fascinating. They were concerned that Helen was wetting the bed, which would probably have been very normal reactions of young children whose family was, you know disrupted, and so on. But, I was a little appalled by this... I discovered they were doing vaginal exams on these young girls. I don't know why. I would love to find out why. But I found that very upsetting to read that. Whether they were looking for some kind of infection that might have been causing the bedwetting, you know use your head. SC: Do you know if it was a religiously connected orphanage or if it was a settlement house type. MF: It was called something like, the Guardians of Young Judea, it was definitely Jewish affiliated facility. And my grandfather would have chosen that because he was quite Orthodox very ... he was always davening as I remember. Keeping Kosher was very important to him, and you know, I know my aunt who was three years older than my father, really kept a home for them, and when my father was dying at the age of ninety nine, he kept telling me that he saw Judith. So I know that he thought of her almost more like his mother, because his mother had died-- it was right after his bar mitzvah, that his mother died so he was 13 and she was 16. And the two boys, the two younger ones I guess, went out and got jobs as soon as they could, and Helen didn't go home until my father and his sister were both married so my grandfather had no way to take care of them anymore. So Helen must have been about 14 at the time. So she went home, and she left, and Ruthie was still in the orphanage, and I thought for sure there would be some notes about Ruthie's reaction to Helen leaving, but no, there wasn't. I was so surprised. And Helen had experienced the trauma, when she was a little younger at the orphanage, they had gone on an outing to the beach, and there was one of those waves that came in and took children out into the water. And she was rescued but a couple of the children died. And there were notes about the trip but nothing about the tragedy. And, again, I wondered about the psychological impact. She was determined to learn to swim after that, I'm told. So it is quite an amazing story of their lives. SC: Wow, was that in the Bronx? MF: It was in Brooklyn. SC: That makes sense, yes. MF: It was all in Brooklyn, and I know they moved around a lot. I also know from my father, that at one point, when his mother was still alive - so when he was a young boy - because she was the only female in her family, she took in her parents along with all these children and this sweet husband who couldn't earn a living. I can't imagine... I know that her brothers weren't thrilled with my grandfather. But they. . . and they met. Aunt Helen told me this more recently. I never knew how my grandparents met. They were living in the same tenement house I guess, and somebody said, you know, upstairs there's a nice man. So it was kind of a shidduch. And I know that my father and my aunts were very proud of the fact that their mother spoke perfect English and actually, she was a kind of teacher. As much as a teacher could be. This is my grandmother, I guess. SC: That's wonderful. Just a natural skill. MF: Yeah. I think it is. Because my aunt went on to be a teacher. My father was a teacher. SC: So, can you talk about your childhood, and your schooling, and any work that you've had from doing something really small when you were young all the way through. MF: I could try, I was born, as I said, I think it was Montefiore Hospital, in the Bronx, or it might have just been in Manhattan-- January 29, 1943. It was the war years, and soon after I was born, my father was drafted into the navy. And my mother who was pretty disconnected from her family, I mean she had no contact with her father or - she had one sister who she stayed close to, Elsie, and Artie. Otherwise, she really didn't have- she had taken my father's family. That really was her family. So when my father was drafted, my mother was in a panic, and she went and lived with Judith, my father's older sister, and her husband, Mike, who was, I guess was 4F, he had some back issues, whatever, so he didn't get drafted. You know, was absolved. And so we lived with them, and Judith and Mike had two sons, Elliot, who was three years older than me, and Robert, who was two months younger than I am. We lost Elliot two years ago to lung cancer. But, Robert and I are still close. SC: Do you know what ship your dad was on? Or what was it? MF: He never went on a ship. He got sent.. SC: Good, that's very good. MF: He ended up in Oakland, California, and he was the yeoman to the admiral. My father had gone to college. He went at nights for probably a total of fourteen years. He went to Brooklyn College and got a degree. First in economics, and when he graduated there weren't any jobs to be had, and he went back and he studied printing-- well he had worked for a printer all along then -- so he got some kind of degree or certification in printing as well. And when he was drafted, because he had a degree in economics they thought he would be a good statistician for the Navy, so he did work as the yeoman, and stayed in Oakland, stayed stateside. So my mother, who was a gutsy lady, took me, at eighteen months, and flew cross country with me. Getting bumped all along the way because you had to get. . . had to leave your seat for servicemen who were traveling. And we lived in Oakland, California. Until I was about three. So I guess it was about a year and a half. I know that my father wanted to stay out there, he loved it out there, but my mother wanted to come back and have whatever family she had. So we did come back. When we came back, we lived in Maspeth, Queens because that's where Judith and Mike had bought a home and were living there. And we lived in their basement. Like mother had made- this area was the living room, and this was the bedroom, and there were screens and so on. But they shared the kitchen of course, and I remember that as a fun time because I had two immediate playmates, my two cousins, and we lived there just for about a year I guess, and my father got a job at the [New York] World Telegram & ; Sun as a proofreader in New York. So we could afford an apartment. We moved to Elmhurst, Queens, which was like the next little town over. And that's really where I grew up, and in that house it was a two family house. And the people who lived upstairs-- their name was Marlow, which doesn't sound like a Jewish name but the name had been Asmilowsky--and Murray and Gussy Marlow were very gracious landlords. And Murray was an attorney, had never gone to law school, but he was an attorney. And they had two children. They had a son George who was two years older than me, and who I-- to this day-- I consider as a brother. I'm an old woman. I never had siblings, so you know, I was four, he was six and we're still very close. And we talk every week or couple of weeks, and our kids grew up together so it's very nice. But I lived in that house until I met Arnan. I went to elementary school and it was within walking distance... SC: What was its name? The elementary school. Do you remember? MF: It was PS102. SC: Oh great! New York, its PS. MF: And then and New York then had a program called the SP or the RA, rapid advance, or special progress, and you had to take an exam to pass, to get into it, and I did and I passed, and it allowed me to go from seventh grade to ninth grade. I skipped eighth grade. So - and that was junior high school '73, it was William Cowper, I believe it was, Junior High School. And so I was there for two years, I remember my aunt used to substitute teach there because sometimes I'd be very daring and put on some lipstick, and then be afraid she would see me in the halls with lipstick on. And when I graduated there I went to Newtown High School, which was in walking distance also from my home. And I was in the honors program for some classes. I was young, I was very young, the birth date . . . I graduated, I was still 16. So I wanted to go to college, there was no question about that, and I wanted -- I thought I wanted to go away to college. But I knew it would be a financial hardship for my parents, so I made a decision to go to one of the city colleges, and I went to Hunter College in Manhattan. And my first day there, I still think it's a funny story because it was a single office building on Park Avenue and 68th Street, right across the street from the Russian Embassy, and it housed an elementary school for exceptionally bright students, and Hunter High School, which was also a school you had to take an exam to get into. So, my first day, I went into the elevator and the elevator operator took me up to the seventh floor, which was the elementary school because I looked so young, and I was small, and I was very upset. And I came home, and I put on high heels, the four-inch spike kind, and I wore them for four years of college because in those days you couldn't wear-- especially in a city school, you had to wear a skirt. You couldn't wear pants, that was unheard of. So anyway that was kind of funny. SC: So, this is going to end, so I'm going to take this one out - SC: This is Tape two - DVD two - Marline Finkelstein and this is- you're talking about your grandmothers, on your mother's side maiden name was- MF: Goldstein. SC: Goldstein, yes. MF: This is the photograph. Is there a date? AF: I don't see one. GAIL EISENBERG: Do you want to just do it afterwards? SC: Yeah we can just do it afterwards. Oh that's gorgeous. Oh my gosh. So that's your great gran- MF: These are my great grandfolk, parents. And they're my father's grandparents. SC: Probably from about the 1870's or 80's? MF: I would think so. And she was the one that was Klineman and he was Levinstien and he took her family name. SC: Yeah, wow. That's so nice. MF: A nice story. SC: That's a great picture too. So you were in college, you went to college. MF: I did. SC: And after college, or during college, can you go from that point on? MF: Sure, sure. By the way, I knew I wanted to be a psychologist, therapist, counselor, whatever, when I was about 6 years old. I didn't even know the name for it but I was sort of fascinated by that. And when I went to college, and I said I wanted to major in psychology, my mother was very disapproving. And she certainly didn't want me to be a social worker because, you know, what kind of job is that? My mother considered herself a business woman. I should have mentioned this. But my mother worked. Which was unusual in those days, she worked because she wasn't satisfied that my father was making enough money. But she was very proud about the fact that she could work, and she never even graduated high school, I don't believe. And she was a bookkeeper. And she was a very good bookkeeper, and she had worked in the garment industry for a while. As a bookkeeper with my uncle Mike, Judith's husband, who was the controller in the same office where my mother was a bookkeeper. SC: Were they manufacturers? Do you know? MF: Yes, they were manufacturers. They were making... what were they making? It wasn't they might have been making... they were making clothes of some kind... because when my mother went back to work, she felt very guilty, and she came home at the end of the first week, or when she got paid, with a little outfit for me. And I was probably in third grade, I think. And she told me, and showed me, look what I can buy for you now that ... you know I'm working. Anyway, so my mother was interested in my . . . she thought I should at least be a teacher because if you're a teacher you can always get a job and god forbid you have to work, and so on. So I made a deal that I would still major in psychology, but I would minor in elementary education. And so I had a double major, minor or whatever. And I do have somewhere in New York, a teaching degree and when we were first married I actually taught nursery school here in Allentown. SC: What nursery school? MF: At the JCC. SC: At the JCC, okay. MF: Of course. SC: Yes, of course. MF: So I should back up, Hunter College meant commuting. And it was an all-girls school, but you know, I dated a lot and those were the days that we dated. In the meantime, my Uncle Mike, who had worked in the garment industry, he had a longing to own his own business, he wanted like a women's clothing store, dress shop, or whatever. And he bought a place called Dobnoffs, in downtown Allentown. And so they left New York, Aunt Judith and Uncle Mike, and moved to Allentown in 1960? About that. AF: Right around there. MF: Yeah, I graduated high school in '59 I guess, and I started college in '59 so it was '61. My aunt lived on Livingston Street, my aunt and uncle. And, she had a next door neighbor named Ruth Bloom, who saw my picture in my aunt's house and said she'd be nice for Mina's son. So Mina's son was in the air force in Oklahoma, at the time. And I got a call from my aunt, in June, I had just finished my final exams, and I wanted to go party, and she told my mother I had to come out, that she had a nice boy for me to meet. And I said I have a date Friday night, Saturday night, I'm you know . . . And my mother said, ah, you know what you have here, you don't know what you have there, go. So I took a bus out to Allentown, and my uncle picked me up at the bus stop, and came to their house. I wanted to go party that night. I was supposed to meet him Saturday night, but they announced we were going to a synagogue that night. Which was the last thing in the world I wanted to do. But I didn't have much choice, so we walked into the synagogue, and I picked a row, and I went in. and - I don't know if you know the word b'sherkt. Meant to be. I sat down next to him. So . . . SC: Ha-ha. MF: So we looked at each other, and I saw my aunt lean forward, and my soon to be mother-in-law lean forward, and they introduced us, and we started talking. We still joke about the fact that when the service started, and we stood up Arnan went, "Where'd she go? Ha-ha. But we met that night. SC: So the stars were all out, and there were fireworks. Ha-ha. GE: All in alignment. MF: All in the right alignment. Ha-ha. And so we drove around in his fancy car that night, and we hung out the next day, and so on. And when I went back to- AF: I didn't have a fancy car back then. MF: Well, was that your father's car? AF: Yeah. MF: It was a- it was a very pretty car. Anyway when I came home, my mother said, So? And I said, well if I don't marry him, I'm going to marry somebody just like him. So I guess I kind of knew. And I went to camp, he went back to the air force. Ha-ha. So I was very young, I was just, was I still seventeen? Or I was eighteen? AF: Sixteen- oh no, you were eighteen. MF: I was eighteen. AF: Eighteen and a half. MF: Oh, okay. So, we corresponded all summer, I was a counselor at camp, and he came home for the Jewish holidays, and I saw him. And he was discharged in November. AF: Actually in August, but I stayed on in school. MF: Okay. And- SC: What was the name of the camp? MF: Oh, it was the New Jersey Y Camps. Which was kind of akin to Pinemere here. But it was in Milford, Pennsylvania, and I had gone there for years. Actually, just a quick step back, my parents didn't have a lot of money, but my Uncle Ukie, that was my father's second younger brother. SC: Israel. MF: Right. He married very late, he never had children, and there was a period of time he lived with us, and he adored me. He was- I- you know the sun rose and set with me. And he was a salesman in the garment industry for a company called Kirkland Hall Suits. I think I still have a couple of his suits hanging in the closet because I can't bear to get rid of them. But he had the wherewithal to send me to camp. So I started going to camp at around the age of six. Which was a lifesaver for me, and helped me to grow and be more independent, and so on. So I went to New Jersey Y camps. First I went to a camp in Connecticut, for a few years, and my cousins went with me. And I started the New Jersey Y camps. I think I was about nine. And that was because my father had a fraternity brother from college, who was on, lived in Passaic, New Jersey, and he was on the Board of Directors, and he could get me into the camp. Because you were supposed to live in New Jersey. So I-- and his children were friends of mine--they were my age, I thought of them as cousins, and so on. So, even though I was young. I had a lot of people I knew already at camp. So I- and every summer I looked forward to. I still have one camp friend left. We email each other now. So that was kind of a good story. Anyway, help me, where did we leave off? SC: Okay so the two of you met, and you graduated from college then did you work between the time you graduated, and then you got married? MF: Um, no, what I did other than working camp that summer was the following summer, I went to summer-school. I took fifteen credits in summer school, so we could get married sooner, rather than waiting until the next June. So I- between NYU and Hunter college, I was able to get all my credits in, and I graduated in January of 63' and 1963, and so I was... SC: Twenty? MF: I wasn't even twenty yet. SC: Nineteen? MF: I was turning twenty, but I was still nineteen. And I still laugh about the fact that when we picked our wedding date that I said, well I need a month just to get my- you know. So I picked the end of February for us to get married, and my mother said, " February, It'll snow." And I said, "No! It won't snow." It snowed. But- GE: February 63' is when you got married. MF: Yes February 24, 1963. So yeah there was no time to work then. I think I might have- I remember a little job working at a JCC with a group of girls, you know, briefly. But that was- it might have been in that period of time. And then I came out to Allentown as a new bride. And I was Mina Finkelstein's Daughter in law. Everybody knew my mother in law because she was this beautiful woman who really had a spell on the community. And she was president of the sisterhood, and she'd been president of Hadassah and was - and I was very open to her. She had great style, and she taught me lots of things and so I she made me a life member of Hadassah right away and the sisterhood, and I got involved in a lot of the organizations. But I also had a teaching degree, so- I mean you can't do much with a bachelors in psychology, and I thought about graduate school, but I wasn't clear yet where I wanted to go, or what I wanted. So my aunt Judith arranged for me to meet Judy Freeman, who ran the nursery school at the JCC. And Judy was thrilled and she hired me right away, and so I worked for two years at the JCC, Miss Marlene. And I still have some of my earliest students, my three and four year olds, still call me Miss Marlene when they see me today, which is hysterical. And then I was pregnant with our first child, Sharon, who was born in 65' and then the sixties were having children. Our second was born, Ilana, in 68' and Abbey was born in 71' and so I certainly . . . The work I did in those years was really more organizational. I used to say I am a professional organizational person, or professional Jewish volunteer. Yeah, I was involved in all the Boards and I was program vice president of Hadassah and membership vice president and on the Sisterhood Board. And on the Federation Board. Maxine and I met the first year as a new bride here. I was very lonely, and everyone said to me. Wait, Maxine Kivert is going to come back to town. When you meet her, you and Maxine are going to be great friends. And, Maxine knew about me because before Arnan met me, he had dated another girl in town who Maxine was friendly with, so Maxine knew about me, and I knew about her. And we met I think at an-- I remember at an ORT-- yeah, I was involved with the ORT also... event. And we knew each other. I mean we just immediately knew each other. And we became very fast friends. Both our husbands were in the textile business, so that was... And she went on to have three daughters, and we had three daughters ha-ha. So we had a lot of connections. And the first thing that Maxine and I did together was we started a Hadassah Study Group. There was a Woman's Study Group that my mother in law belonged to. And the older women belonged to. But we had children, and we were home during the day, it was harder to get babysitters. So we started an evening study group. That was just fabulous. And the first year we asked the rabbis to come and talk, and at the end of that we said, you know we're all college graduates, we can do a better job than they did. They sort of were winging it, so we would pick a topic. Hadassah would give us some ideas, and we would give out the assignments. And every other Monday night I guess for- it was just fabulous. Even Arnan would tell me he was jealous because we were learning so much. And it was like doing a paper, and you were the presenter, and it was wonderful. It went on for many years. It drew in a lot of young Jewish women that were coming to town because they would hear about our study group, and it was a great thing. And then Maxine and I went on to do a few other things together. We started a speaker's bureau, and we just felt that all these Jewish organizations were having board meetings, having meetings, and so on, and they never had any real Jewish content, so we put together a group of people who would write. We limited it, we had five minute talks. Just a little capsule thing, that they would go in at the beginning of a board meeting, and give a little talk on something of Jewish content and interest, and it was kind of a fun thing. And from that, Les Gottlieb was the director of the Federation at that time, and he came to us and asked if we might be interested in starting a newspaper for the Jewish community. And we already had our writers from our speaker's bureau staff so we did it. We started Hakol. And it was a very, very exciting time for us. GE: And this was about what year? MF: Hakol I think we started in 1975? 76'? Something like that. Somewhere I have the original. But it was in that time period because when we moved... AF: How many years did you - MF: Do Hakol? About four. AF: Then you probably started earlier because I was president of the Federation when you came asking for a... MF: Yeah, after about four years, I- he was president, I said, I can't keep doing this on a volunteer basis. I went to Federation and-- Maxine had dropped out, she said she was done. She would help me with some editing stuff. But it was a big job, it really was. And I went to the Federation and I said, this is really a big job, and I asked them to pay me 4,000 dollars, and they said no they couldn't do that. If they started paying for all these jobs, it wouldn't be good for the Federation. So that ended my career. SC: Did it continue on a volunteer basis? MF: For another year or so. SC: Are they archived anywhere? MF: Yeah I think they are, probably at the Center, or the Federation office. AF: You didn't keep any did you? MF: Of course I did. They're downstairs somewhere. It was a very exciting time for us. But I knew I needed to move on, and I started thinking about. .. I was also still involved in study groups and I remember giving a paper. There were two in a row, one was on interestingly, the growing threat of radical Islam, and um, I remember I learned all about the Shiites, and the Sunni's and so on. And one was on Theodore Herzl. And I remember coming home and Arnan said, how did it go, and I said, it was an A paper. It's time for me to go back to school, and you know, do it for myself. So I knew I wanted psychology. I started looking around for a program, and, by the way, I was also on the board of Jewish Family Service. And, Amy Miller Cohen, who was a psychologist in Bethlehem, I had given the paper at her house. And I was talking with her about going back to school and getting a masters, and she said to me, "Marlene, go get an MSW." and I said, "Really?" And she said, "It'll take you less time, you're not a little kid anymore," I was about 37, 38, and she said, "and you'll do what you want to do. '' So Marywood had a program at DeSales. And so I went. It took me three years because it was a part time program, but I got my MSW, and I had interned at Quakertown Hospital in the Psychiatric unit as part of the program, and I stayed on there, and worked in patient psyche for another ten years. And it was with a group called the Alliance for Creative Development. We were psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers-- creative therapists. It was a wonderful program, it was before managed care and all that stuff. And where we really could work with patients as a team and see results. It was a very very exciting time. And the alliance for creative development had the hospital unit, and we had in patient offices as well so I started - AF: Outpatient. MF: Outpatient offices I mean, so I started a private practice with them also... and, twenty five years later, I retired. I left the hospital, after eight years at Quakertown hospital there, we moved to a hospital in Philadelphia, in Fort Washington. It was Northwestern Institute. After two years of doing the turnpike it was enough. So I just did the private practice from then on. And in between there, too, Arnan built the house and we moved here and... oh I was president of Jewish Family Service while I was in graduate school getting my MSW. SC: So you've talked about your community involvement, you've talked about your career, do you have any other questions about the business? GE: Yeah no I think it did- did you have, what relationship or what connections did you have to the family business, if any? MF: Well, we tried for about two weeks for me to come keep some books for you. That didn't work. Ha-ha AM: She was our model. Every so often we would have an experimental- MF: Oh this is a very funny story. AF: Yeah, MF: I had, I've always had a dressmaker because of my size, whatever I would always buy always had to be fixed. So Arnan had this new experimental fabric that they were making. AF: Well we were just playing with it. MF: Yeah, so I took it to my dressmaker, this is before we were married, and she made me a bathing suit out of it for our honeymoon. And it was very pretty with an orange scoop neck, and it had some of the knit fabric in a print that tied, went around the waist or the hip, anyway, I couldn't wait to use it for our honeymoon. Fortunately we went to Caneel Bay, and we had this little cottage on a very private beach, because I went into the water with this thing, and the weight of the water immediately pulled it right down. SC: Ha-ha. MF: So I came out of the water with it way down. GE: Fine for a honeymoon! MF: That's right. GE: Fine for a private beach. MF: Right! Ha-ha we got a good laugh out of that. But otherwise, I um, always had an interest. I never sewed, I'm not terribly domestic, Arnan's much more domestic than I am. But he would bring home fabrics, I did have um, I had a dress or a bathing suit made for Sharon, but I took it to a dressmaker, out of the fabric Arnan had shown you with Sharon Alyse's birthday on it. GE: But generally you were not- you were just his wife. MF: I was not- GE: Directly involved. MF: I was not directly involved. I had a pretty wonderful and loving relationship with my in-laws, especially with my mother-in-law. My father-in-law was a quiet man, he didn't talk very much. And most of the time he wanted to talk to Arnan about business things. But he would come over to see the grandchildren, I still joke about - he would look, he would see they were okay, and then he would say, "Okay Mina Finkelstein, it's time to go home!" And she would say, "George! We just got here!" GE: Where did they live? MF: They lived on Livingston and twenty . . . and Ott. On the corner of Livingston and Ott. And our prior home was on 26th and Highland. So we were always in close proximity. Yes. GE: I think that's good. SC: Yes oh and I have a couple of my creative questions. What do you value most in life? MF: Well, probably my family, first and foremost, and the connections and the relationships. I would have to make that you know... SC: Yes. And what has made you feel the most creative or artistic in the broadest sense, or completed in life. MF: Well, I think I have a great sense of accomplishment about the newspaper, not the fact that I helped to start it, and it's still an ongoing institution, I think feels very wonderful. But I think I feel that way about a few other things that we started in life. The Am Haskalah was, Arnan and I were very involved in getting that off the ground. As were Maxine and her first husband, Arnold. So starting some institutions that are still going has been a very creative process. And being a therapist. I love being a therapist. I do miss it. And I saw a friend of mine yesterday, we had worked together in-patient, and became therapists together, and so on and she's still working. And we were talking about that, and how what happens now is the tendency for me to use it with family and friends. Ha-ha thatskill, and you know, trying to decide when I should keep my mouth shut, and when I can just be a friend and not say anything more. And even when they ask me for advice, what do they really want? But the fact that I touched a lot of lives, I think, means a great deal to me. SC: That's beautiful. And this is going to end momentarily. MF: Okay. SC: That's perfect. GE: Quick question, with the Hakol, so you started, you were there for about four years, then it went on for another year, I know of it today, tell me did it lapse? MF: No it didn't lapse, it- GE: So it continued the whole- MF: But it wasn't until I'm trying to remember, did Ned Shulman do it? Maggie Levine was still here. AF: No. GE: I know Sharon Bernstein I think I think at one point maybe- MF: Yeah that was a while- AF: Somebody took it over after you know- MF: Whoever did it until they finally- AF: But then it became professional. MF: They finally realized they had to have someone to do this, but it has grown, and when um... not the current one... GE: Carolyn, Carolyn Katwan. MF: When Carolyn- I met her. And I complimented her genuinely, because I thought she had grown it and taken it to a new place, that was our vision. Part of our vision when we started it was to see it become a Lehigh Valley - and to bring the three communities - because they were very separate. And Maxine and I used to lament that. You know it didn't make sense that my New York sechel [Yiddish for common sense], and we would be better in larger numbers, and to pull it together. And they've really gone on to do that now, and the vision for it - we were too small, and inexperienced to make it an advertising newspaper, as well. But I'm happy to see the ads in it. GE: And that's quite recent. For a long time it was still- MF: Well it was just the past few years. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:00:55
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marlene Finkelstein, June 23, 2014
Description
An account of the resource
Marlene Finkelstein talks about growing up in New York City, attending Hunter College, and then coming to Allentown at the suggestion of her aunt and uncle to meet a nice young man, Arnan Finkelstein. After Marlene married Arnan and moved to Allentown she started a family and got immersed in the Jewish community. Marlene and her dear friend Maxine Tanenbaum (now Kline) started an evening Hadassah study session and later the Hakol (monthly Jewish newspaper published by the Jewish Federation). Marlene returned to school part-time to earn an MSW (Masters of Social Work). She then worked in the field of psychology/social work for more than twenty-five years. .
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LVTNT-23
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014-06-23
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.
-
https://textile.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/2a2c42e3451ae42b62fa7d27819d2c87.png
90cff8079fc53c047f22c031ee8aa158
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Marshall Silverstein
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-09.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 July 30, 2013 Marshall Silverstein, July 30, 2013 LVTNT-09 1:35:47 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Marshall Silverstein Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 SilversteinMarshall_20130730.mp4 1.0:|11(7)|26(15)|37(13)|56(2)|67(11)|82(3)|95(9)|108(11)|123(3)|138(19)|151(3)|166(12)|181(3)|196(14)|211(12)|226(12)|245(4)|264(2)|279(4)|290(7)|303(17)|318(2)|341(7)|358(2)|367(10)|380(4)|391(9)|406(2)|413(15)|432(3)|449(14)|460(12)|465(10)|478(16)|491(15)|502(8)|519(16)|532(6)|549(11)|562(14)|575(15)|584(5)|593(13)|614(3)|627(14)|650(9)|669(2)|680(6)|691(11)|700(12)|715(5)|728(2)|741(11)|756(13)|775(12)|804(10)|827(5)|840(5)|863(9)|882(10)|897(14)|916(2)|935(7)|946(6)|959(10)|974(2)|989(4)|1000(14)|1009(8)|1024(7)|1045(5)|1058(12)|1071(13)|1084(9)|1101(5)|1118(8)|1139(13)|1158(15)|1181(8)|1192(3)|1203(2)|1218(7)|1237(4)|1252(5)|1269(11)|1286(12)|1309(15)|1328(8)|1343(2)|1354(11)|1367(13)|1384(6)|1397(4)|1412(12)|1427(5)|1442(5) 0 https://youtu.be/9qeV-YaV90s YouTube video 0 Introduction—Marshall Silverstein's Childhood in Brooklyn, NY SC: What is your full name? 
 ; 
 ; MS: The name is Marshall Silverstein. I have a question. You talk about family, and you’re here about business. My family was not in business, but my wife’s family was in business. So we’ll have to differentiate. 
 ; 
 ; SC: We’ll talk about both. But, still, to see the family histories, this is a “life history” type of oral history also.
 ; 
 ; MS: I was born in Brooklyn on August 18, 1931. Lived in Brooklyn with my parents and my sister and many family members. Whoever didn’t have a home or didn’t know what to do with their lives came to my mother, and she solved all their problems. At one time we had thirteen people living there and one bathroom! 
 ; 
 ; SC: Do you remember the address in Brooklyn? 0 156 Education and Work Experience MS: I studied at the Hebrew Institute of Boro Park - which was a Modern Orthodox school. From there I went to Brooklyn Technical High School, which was one of the three most premier schools in the whole five boroughs. Unfortunately, I got sick during the second year and couldn’t travel downtown any longer. So I went to New Utrecht High School. I finished up in the New Utrecht High School in Brooklyn. You want to know about jobs? During the time I went to New Utrecht High School, I delivered orders for the local vegetable man, during the week -- on a bicycle with a basket.
 ; 
 ; GE: During high school?
 ; 
 ; MS: Yes, and also worked in New York City, my junior year in high school, delivering laces throughout NYC by hand-truck. At the end of my senior year, I worked at the Pioneer Country Club in the Catskills as a busboy and a waiter. 0 461 North American Aviation Industrial MS: After graduating from school, I got a job in Los Angeles with North American Aviation in industrial engineering, which I had studied at Columbia. I was there a year when once again, my ego was pumped up by the leader of the department said he was leaving, and he asked me to come with him. We both went to Atomics International, where we manufactured atomic reactors for school and experimental purposes. An interesting thing was that I had to get a clearance for atomic energy, which is even higher than top secret. They invaded my block in Brooklyn, knocking on every door to find out, “Who was this guy? What has he done?” 0 538 The Pennsburg Handbag Factory MS: I was there for about a year, and I got a letter from my father-in-law, who manufactured handbags, saying his brother was retiring, and he would very much like for me to work with him. I had told him years before that I would. But after I was out on my own. I knew that I could make a living for my family without any help from anyone else. I would consider it - if he would. He said if you want to do it, this is the time to do it. I need the help now. 0 630 Transitioning from Manufacturer to Consultant MS: When I was 50, my partner and I had a disagreement – we were the best partners there could be, but he wanted to expand, and I just didn’t feel it was worthwhile. We had two factories and six contractors – and enough is enough. So we said, “Let’s ask our kids if they have any interest.” He had four kids, and four kids were interested. I had three kids and no kids were interested. I did the fair thing and said that he should be able to buy it from me, and he did. We closed the deal on a Friday afternoon, and I said, “I’m free now, I could be semi-retired. I could read books now“. At two o’clock on Thursday afternoon, the next week, I was lying on that couch over there – reading my book, and I got a call from First Valley Bank in Bethlehem. “Marshall, since you have nothing to do with your time, would you like to do some consulting for us?” I said, “Jim, I don’t know what you are talking about.” So he said, “Come on over, “ and we talked. They had some small business loans that weren’t performing. All they had were numbers to look at. They wanted to know why they weren’t performing. I agreed with them, and I took my first assignment. From there on, I was a consultant – no more lying on the couch, reading books. 0 794 Handbags & ; Luggage MS: While we were in the manufacturing business, we started an outlet store and then multiplied those outlet stores by thirteen. It was a very successful business.
 ; 
 ; SC: What was the name of the outlet store and the pocketbook business?
 ; 
 ; MS: The name of the outlet stores was “Handbags and Luggage.” We had a store here in Allentown. The major store was in Reading in the outlet stores. And, you’re looking at the guy who talked them into opening that big outlet. They had that store there, and I tried to get into that store. It was all their own merchandise, and they wouldn’t let me in. The CEO there was a very nice guy, Manfred O. Lee (nothing to do with the jeans that they produced.) I met him for breakfast once every couple of weeks, they had a cafeteria there. I tried to outline to him why it would be profitable with all the empty buildings that he had there because they sent their work down South to manufacture. He turned me down all the time. I got a call, he said, “Marshall, we will have a handbag store here before Christmas. Do you want to come in?” Sure, and that evolved from a handbag store to-- not mine, the handbag store was mine – to furniture, everything you could think of, tools, whatever . . . very successful. 0 988 Connections with Samsung, Macy's, Gimbels, Korvette, and Marshalls MS: The handbag business - we were bought out by Samsung. I had never heard the word before. They called me up ; they wanted me to sell the handbags. I said we were manufacturers, not salespeople. I would introduce them to whatever salespeople he wanted. When I first met him, I said, “Hello, Mr. Sung.” He looked at me and said, “My name is not Sung. I represent Samsung.” “Who is Samsung?” We all know who Samsung is today. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Although I didn’t know about that type of product.
 ; 
 ; MS: They were manufacturing handbags, but were unable to produce – sell them where they wanted. They had heard about my sales ability – not the mom and pop stores, but the shoe chains and major department stores – that’s where they wanted to go.
 ; 
 ; SC: What major department stores?
 ; 
 ; MS: Macy’s, Gimbels, Korvette, everyone that you know of, we sold to. 0 1126 Silverstein Family History MS: My father was born in Austria and came here when he was a kid. My mother was born in NYC. I’ll give you a little background. My grandfather, my father’s father, must have been wealthy in Europe. They sent him to the United States to study, back in the early 1900s. After he finished studying, he went back to Europe. They financed him in a candy store. He ate the store broke! He ate up all the products! They came here – my father was about ten years old, or something like that. My grandfather was in the piece goods business, selling remnants.
 ; 
 ; GE: Material?
 ; 
 ; MS: Yes. My father eventually did the same thing. He would go into one factory and see what they had leftover and go to another factory and tell them this is what I got? Do you want it? This is the price. So he’d go from one factory to another. My father’s name was Herman, and my mother’s name was Anna. His parents were Sam and Goldie. 0 1572 Bruch Family History SC: Can you talk about your wife’s family, her background now, her family – what you know about the family business?
 ; 
 ; MS: Let’s take her father, his name was William. He had a brother - they both worked in the handbag factory. Nina’s mother – her [last] name was Agaschevitz, shortened to Agus. A whole bunch of extremely intelligent people – book-wise. [Nina’s mother’s family] One of them wasn’t so smart on the streets. One was a doctor in Brooklyn. He was the smartest one of all. He studied the Tanakh and everything, all the books. He was a brilliant man. Another brother was a professor at Yeshiva University.
 ; 
 ; GE: I’m sorry. These are Nina’s siblings or Nina’s parents’ siblings? 
 ; 
 ; MS: Nina’s mother’s siblings. 0 1794 Marshall Silverstein's Wife—Nina (Pauline) Silverstein nee Bruch SC: What’s your wife’s full name? What is Nina’s full name? 
 ; 
 ; MS: Her birth name or current? 
 ; 
 ; SC: Birth name.
 ; 
 ; MS: Nina Silverstein.
 ; 
 ; GE: Her name now is Silverstein, what was her birth name? 
 ; 
 ; MS: Bruch. But it wasn’t Nina. It was Pauline.
 ; 
 ; GE: So Nina is a nickname.
 ; 
 ; MS: Yes, when she was born, one of her uncles – the one afflicted with Agent Orange – started calling her Nina or Ninya. Nina went to Shulamith School in Brooklyn. That’s the same kind of school that I went to, only it was for girls, mine was for boys. Then she went to Ramaz in NYC for High School, and also college was City College of the City of New York, etc, etc. 0 2196 Involvement in the Allentown and Jewish Communities SC: [Y]ou talked a little bit about the Jewish community and her work in it, a little bit about your work in it, was there anything else that the two of you did within the community of Allentown and in the Jewish community?
 ; 
 ; MS: Yes, most of our work, but not all of it, was in the Jewish community, as we were a minority, a very low percentage of the population, so any help you could do, you did. I, myself, was involved in many organizations, including B'nai B'rith, the Jewish War Veterans and most of all, the Jewish Day School. In fact, I was President of the Jewish Day School in the late 70’s – I don’t remember the exact year. We were members of Temple Beth El. At Temple Beth El they asked me to be the President of the Cemetery Association, which I did for twenty-five to thirty years. It was a thankless job, everyone said, but for me, it gave me great pleasure because I didn’t have to go to meetings or anything like that. I did the work, raised a lot of money. We had lot sales [burial plots]. 0 2451 Development of the Lehigh Valley SC: [H]ow do you think the Lehigh Valley has changed in these years?
 ; 
 ; MS: When I came to Allentown, it was a sleepy little town. You could virtually cross Tilghman Street with your eyes closed. There were no cars coming from either way. Today, it ain’t so baby! At one time, I would say that I knew every Jewish person in town. We were members of three Synagogues. Ultimately, we broke it down to one. It was a wonderful, wonderful community. Everybody was for each other. Now I don’t know, maybe it’s because of our age. I know very few people as compared to that time. But Nina and I were involved in all the Crosses: the Blue Cross, the Green Cross, the Red Cross, whatever. 0 2578 Affiliations with Community Synagogues SC: What were the names of the Synagogues that you belonged to? Which Synagogue did you join?
 ; 
 ; MS: The main one was Temple Beth El, also Sons of Israel and Knesseth Israel (KI as it’s currently known.) We were very much involved with the Jewish community. We had a daughter, and when she graduated from college, she toured Europe and went to Israel and liked it there and settled there. We have been to Israel numerous times before. Between my daughter and whatever we were, we have been to Israel about thirty times. 0 2628 Diminishing Opportunities in Allentown, PA SC: Do you think there is a reason that the next generation isn’t staying in Allentown? At least that's what we've been hearing over and over again, that people have moved away, your children’s generation.
 ; 
 ; MS: Let’s take a look, what was the leading industry? When we moved here, one of the leading industries - I’m not talking about Air Products, Bethlehem Steel, or whatever. The industries that I knew were the garment trade industry. All those people that you talked about at the meeting at the JCC I know or knew all of them intimately…it’s not so anymore. When the kids grew up, like my kids, this one is a mathematician, this one is a business person. I guess they don’t have the opportunity in Allentown like they have in Washington, DC – where one of them is. 0 2711 Marshall Silverstein's Children SC: What is that child’s name in Washington?
 ; 
 ; MS: Elissa Drucker. Another one in Palo Alto, California, in the midst of – what do you call that industry?
 ; 
 ; GE: High Tech?
 ; 
 ; MS: High Tech Industry. You walk down the street, and there is the head of Microsoft - shopping in the same store and drugstores. You don’t have that anymore. The last one of them was Bell Labs, part of Western Electric. It’s a different kind of town.
 ; 
 ; SC: Is that a son or daughter in California?
 ; 
 ; MS: That’s a daughter.
 ; 
 ; SC: What’s her name?
 ; 
 ; MS: Lori Blum. And then I have a son, Ronald, who is with Amtrak for about twenty-five years. 0 2985 Origins of the Family Business MS: My father-in-law, I can’t tell you why he started the business, but I can imagine. These garment trades – it didn’t take too much money. You bought a couple of sewing machines and put them in the basement and got your wife to sew. He was manufacturing in Connecticut. He had a problem with the Union there. He had a contractor who was making handbags for him in Pennsburg. He was manufacturing in Connecticut, and he might have had one of two other contractors. The plant in Pennsburg – the company- went bankrupt. He got permission from the Referee in Bankruptcy to go into the [Pennsburg] factory and finish off all the bags that they had there.
 ; 
 ; GE: So they were in Chapter 11? 
 ; 
 ; MS: Yeah the ones in Pennsburg….no maybe Chapter 7 or 13 -Going out of business. He went in there and finished off the bags, and he liked the setup – the life in Pennsburg very much. Between that and the Union in Connecticut, he decided to close in Connecticut and made a deal with the Referee in Bankruptcy and bought all the machines and equipment in Pennsburg, and rented the building in Pennsburg, where he manufactured handbags. 0 3363 Charisma la Sac GE: So you made pocketbooks. Were they under store labels?
 ; 
 ; MS: It was under the name we named them, which was “Charisma la Sac.”
 ; 
 ; GE: Is that two words?
 ; 
 ; MS: Three words.
 ; 
 ; GE: Charisma la Sac. When I see the name today, I see the name La Sac.
 ; 
 ; MS: In that industry, everybody copied from everybody else. It wasn’t patented or copyrighted.
 ; 
 ; GE: So it was under your own brand name, not a store brand.
 ; 
 ; MS: No, No, No.
 ; 
 ; GE: You made pocketbooks. Were there other related products that you made? 0 3454 Employees MS: We had a line of bags and umbrellas where we personalized it with your name.
 ; 
 ; GE: Was it personalized by an embroiderer? Or some sort of marker?
 ; 
 ; MS: Yes. A girl with beautiful handwriting.
 ; 
 ; GE: Like a calligrapher. You were a manufacturer, so did you have your own sales force?
 ; 
 ; MS: Absolutely! When you say a sales force, we had a couple salesmen on our payroll, but most of the salespeople were on commission. 
 ; 
 ; GE: They were reps, sales reps?
 ; 
 ; MS: Yes, all over the country.
 ; 
 ; GE: And they represented your merchandise as well as others.
 ; 
 ; MS: Correct.
 ; 
 ; GE: How large were you? How many people worked there?
 ; 
 ; MS: In the factory in Red Hill?
 ; 
 ; GE: About?
 ; 
 ; MS: I’m just trying to picture it….70. For a while, we had another factory in Wilkes-Barre. But we really depended on contractors to fill what we couldn’t produce. 0 3734 Make Well Leather Goods Company GE: So, therefore, what you're telling me is that you didn’t just do fashion bags. You also did bags that would be used by companies? Businesses.
 ; 
 ; MS: No, they were fashion bags. They chose them out of a line. For instance, Mack Trucks, we didn’t make anything special for them other than fasten the bulldog on. They had to let us know beforehand because when we manufactured it, you didn’t want to put it through the lining on the inside, so we would put it through and then fill in the lining. So, it was just for them.
 ; 
 ; GE: But they were fashion bags? The materials that you were using, was it leather?
 ; 
 ; MS: Initially, we used the highest grade of vinyl, but expanded vinyl. I would defy anyone – without smelling – to tell if it’s leather or vinyl. The only way they can tell is if there happens to have a scratch on it then, it’s an animal. 0 3914 Silverstein's Partner—Izzy Bruch GE: So Marshall, you’re saying that the part of the business that you oversaw more was the financial and also the sales side. How about your brother-in-law?
 ; 
 ; MS: My brother-in-law took care of the manufacturing, and also he designed some bags, and he cut samples to make the bags. We had a high-class designer in New York, called Magda McKay. We had a line of Magda McKay bags.
 ; 
 ; SC: Is that Magda McKay?
 ; 
 ; MS: The name just came out. Do you know what they asked me, “What address was I born at.” And you know, I named it just like that.
 ; 
 ; GE: When your brother-in-law bought you out, did they stay in business for a long time?
 ; 
 ; MS: Not very long. They went bankrupt. 0 4050 Transitioning from Manufacturing to Sales/The End of the Business GE: When did you stop manufacturing, and why did you stop manufacturing?
 ; 
 ; MS: About thirty-five years ago – 1975/1980 – somewhere in that vicinity is when we stopped manufacturing. We were of the belief – we wanted to be “made in USA.” We went to that for years and found competition very, very strong because they [overseas] had it made for half price. Then one year JCPenney – these kinds of stores order six months in advance – not like Macy’s who wants it next week. JCPenney would ordinarily buy from me two, maximum three styles, because they couldn’t put all their eggs in one basket because they bought from many people. So if somebody failed to deliver, they are not out of business. This particular year, JCPenney walked in and loved everything we had and bought thirteen styles. Thirteen styles to us was overwhelming if we are going to continue to produce for Macy’s and Gimbels – so we had to go overseas. We went overseas, and we had these thirteen bags made by a factory, and the next year is when Samsung came to us. Why? Because they have company spies. They knew every style we made there, how many of each color, and they felt if I could sell ours then I could sell theirs. 0 4488 Handbags & ; Luggage (cont'd) GE: Tell us a little bit about the Outlet Stores? When did you start that? I know you said that actually became the largest part.
 ; 
 ; MS: Yes, and by the way, in the contract that I had with Samsung, it said that I would devote my prime hours to Samsung, and I’m the one who decides what the prime hours are. I devote my attention to it, but I could run this outlet store business. And the contract was drawn up legally, so the verbiage was good. Now, what was your question?
 ; 
 ; GE: With the outlet stores, I was wondering when that started, what did that trajectory look like?
 ; 
 ; MS: I would say it started about 1965/1970.
 ; 
 ; GE: Did there seem to be any conflict? In other words, did the other stores have a problem?
 ; 
 ; MS: No. I didn’t sell my merchandise or very little of my merchandise. I went into New York and just like Marshall’s did – buying excess inventory. I bought their inventory. 0 4804 End of the VF Anchor Store MS: I will tell you the story of the demise of our business. My partner wanted to expand and expand. I told him we don't have the wherewithal to do it and it's a wrong move. I told him that I would sell off the twelve stores other than VF and work VF, what do they call it today, 24-7. And, well that didn't happen, and so when I left, he started paying attention to new stores to open and he forgot about and didn't pay much attention to VF. And like I said before, VF was the bread and butter and the other ones were little cookies. VF was very proud of what they had. I remember walking in there with Nina about five months later, and I stood in the middle of the store, and I cried. And Nina said what's wrong. I said they are going to kick him out of here any day, and that's what happened. And that's what really triggered the demise of losing that anchor store. 0 4928 Impact of the Disappearance of the Textile Industry on the Lehigh Valley's Communities GE: Yeah, how do you think the broader community, not just the Lehigh Valley, has been affected by, but even maybe the broader area has been affected by the disappearance of this industry?
 ; 
 ; MS: I think it's been affected tremendously and when I say tremendously, I am thinking tremendously. There are no more businesses like we knew back then. Mom and pop factories. There were dozens of contractors around here. They weren't handbag contractors around here, but there were blouse contractors and blouse manufacturers and bathing suit manufacturers. There was a company called Neat-Knits who manufactured women's blouses. I forget the name of the other one, the bathing suits, and Mark Stutz's father was in that business and It's a whole different atmosphere now. There we counted on our fingers, we wrote numbers on a piece of paper and we added them up. Now, if you don't have an iPad and a computer, you can't do anything. 0 5181 Jewish Involvement in the Textile & ; Needle-Trade Industries GE: Why do you think the Jews tended to be overrepresented in this industry? Why do you think they were maybe overrepresented in this industry as opposed to any other industry? What do you think?
 ; 
 ; MS: I mentioned something before, and I'll say it again. To get into the garment trade you didn't have to have a lot of money comparatively to start a business. You couldn't start a steel mill if you didn't have money and you couldn't start a department store like Hudson's, if you didn't have money. But you could buy a table, and a pair of shears, and six sewing machines, and some thread and sew up. . . sew up blouses, sew up pocketbooks, sew up anything. And Jews tend to be entrepreneurs, and not many of them had money when they came out from the other country or whatever. And this gave them an opportunity to start their own business. 0 5268 Silverstein's Values and Creative Inspirations SC: I have a couple other questions, and one of them is, what has your family valued in life most and what do you value in life most?
 ; 
 ; MS: In one word it is FAMILY. I came from Los Angeles because I told you about my father-in-law asking me, but also our first child was born, and I felt children deserve grandparents and grandparents deserve grandchildren. And to this day, my family is everything. Oh, certainly, friends are very important, but family is primary.
 ; 
 ; SC: And what has made you feel the most creative, artistic in a metaphoric sense, but creative in life?
 ; 
 ; MS: Slightly focused, not slightly . . . I'm very focused on numbers. I can manipulate numbers. For my benefit, meaning, for instance, having thirteen stores. These thirteen stores, when you go in stores, people used to pay cash. Yeah, some credit card, some check, most paid cash. Now, there's a store in Texas, there's a store in Florida. You're not there, and I could tell you, I believe, every dollar that hit a cash register went into our till. 0 MovingImage Marshall Silverstein talks about how he and his brother-in-law joined Marshall’s father-in-law’s business making handbags in Pennsburg, PA. Marshall stayed in that business for 22 years. While running the factory, Marshall and his partner started an outlet handbag and luggage business in Reading, PA. They expanded to thirteen outlet stores. It was a very successful business. After retiring at age fifty, Marshall began doing financial consulting, first with First Valley Bank in Bethlehem, then with other customers. He did financial consulting for another twenty years. Interview with Marshall Silverstein, July 30, 2013 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: What is your full name? MARSHALL SILVERSTEIN: The name is Marshall Silverstein. I have a question. You talk about family, and you're here about business. My family was not in business, but my wife's family was in business. So we'll have to differentiate. SC: We'll talk about both. But, still, to see the family histories, this is a "life history" type of oral history also. MS: I was born in Brooklyn on August 18, 1931. Lived in Brooklyn with my parents and my sister and many family members. Whoever didn't have a home or didn't know what to do with their lives came to my mother, and she solved all their problems. At one time we had thirteen people living there and one bathroom! SC: Do you remember the address in Brooklyn? MS: The first one was 1256 56th Street -- amazing! Yes-- In Brooklyn Borough. Then we moved to 57th Street, 14th and 15th Avenue, I don't remember the address. Then we moved to 55th Street ; that address was 1341 55th Street. SC: Could you talk a little bit about your education and background-- going through until you came to Allentown and beyond? MS: I studied at the Hebrew Institute of Boro Park - which was a Modern Orthodox school. From there I went to Brooklyn Technical High School, which was one of the three most premier schools in the whole five boroughs. Unfortunately, I got sick during the second year and couldn't travel downtown any longer. So I went to New Utrecht High School. I finished up in the New Utrecht High School in Brooklyn. You want to know about jobs? During the time I went to New Utrecht High School, I delivered orders for the local vegetable man, during the week -- on a bicycle with a basket. GAIL EISENBERG: During high school? MS: Yes, and also worked in New York City, my junior year in high school, delivering laces throughout NYC by hand-truck. At the end of my senior year, I worked at the Pioneer Country Club in the Catskills as a busboy and a waiter. I worked there for about five years during the holidays and summers. From there -- the New Utrecht High School - I went to the Fashion Institute of Technology, which was located on one floor of a Central Needle Trade H.S. in NYC, and now occupies a whole square block in New York and is well known. When I graduated from there, I studied management for the needle trades. When I was in my senior term, it was a two year school, I got a call from the Dean of the engineering of the school, who had left the term before and went to York, PA to manage a women's clothing manufacturing facility, and he asked me if I would join him out there, and I did. I was there for six months and was drafted into the service. Notice I said drafted, not volunteered. That was the time of the Korean War. While I was over in Korea, I thought about my future life and thought a four-year degree might be helpful in the future, and I got a long life to live. So, I wrote a letter to Columbia University and told them I would like to study engineering, and they got back to me and said you have to send your files, grades, whatever information. I asked my mother to send them. Lo and behold they wrote back that I was accepted. This was for the February 1954 semester, because I left the service in December of 1953. Speaking of working, I wanted to make some money while I had off -- a month or so - I taught at a driving school -- automobile driving for a month -- it was very hazardous. I studied engineering, and after two years, Nina and I married, and we lived in Manhattan -- -within walking distance to the school. After graduating from school, I got a job in Los Angeles with North American Aviation in industrial engineering, which I had studied at Columbia. I was there a year when once again, my ego was pumped up by the leader of the department said he was leaving, and he asked me to come with him. We both went to Atomics International, where we manufactured atomic reactors for school and experimental purposes. An interesting thing was that I had to get a clearance for atomic energy, which is even higher than top secret. They invaded my block in Brooklyn, knocking on every door to find out, "Who was this guy? What has he done?" I was there for about a year, and I got a letter from my father-in-law, who manufactured handbags, saying his brother was retiring, and he would very much like for me to work with him. I had told him years before that I would. But after I was out on my own. I knew that I could make a living for my family without any help from anyone else. I would consider it - if he would. He said if you want to do it, this is the time to do it. I need the help now. GE: What year is this about? MS: The end of 1958. So, at the end of 1958, Nina and I had our first child. We packed up and moved to Allentown. My father-in-law had a handbag factory in Pennsburg. That is through my first 50 years of life -- working. When I was 50, my partner and I had a disagreement -- we were the best partners there could be, but he wanted to expand, and I just didn't feel it was worthwhile. We had two factories and six contractors -- and enough is enough. So we said, "Let's ask our kids if they have any interest." He had four kids, and four kids were interested. I had three kids and no kids were interested. I did the fair thing and said that he should be able to buy it from me, and he did. We closed the deal on a Friday afternoon, and I said, "I'm free now, I could be semi-retired. I could read books now". At two o'clock on Thursday afternoon, the next week, I was lying on that couch over there -- reading my book, and I got a call from First Valley Bank in Bethlehem. "Marshall, since you have nothing to do with your time, would you like to do some consulting for us?" I said, "Jim, I don't know what you are talking about." So he said, "Come on over, " and we talked. They had some small business loans that weren't performing. All they had were numbers to look at. They wanted to know why they weren't performing. I agreed with them, and I took my first assignment. From there on, I was a consultant -- no more lying on the couch, reading books. Then I met someone who was also a consultant. We became partners in a consulting business. I did that until the age of 70 --- it was good. There is something I left out -- from the manufacturing business. While we were in the manufacturing business, we started an outlet store and then multiplied those outlet stores by thirteen. It was a very successful business. SC: What was the name of the outlet store and the pocketbook business? MS: The name of the outlet stores was "Handbags and Luggage." We had a store here in Allentown. The major store was in Reading in the outlet stores. And, you're looking at the guy who talked them into opening that big outlet. They had that store there, and I tried to get into that store. It was all their own merchandise, and they wouldn't let me in. The CEO there was a very nice guy, Manfred O. Lee (nothing to do with the jeans that they produced.) I met him for breakfast once every couple of weeks, they had a cafeteria there. I tried to outline to him why it would be profitable with all the empty buildings that he had there because they sent their work down South to manufacture. He turned me down all the time. I got a call, he said, "Marshall, we will have a handbag store here before Christmas. Do you want to come in?" Sure, and that evolved from a handbag store to-- not mine, the handbag store was mine -- to furniture, everything you could think of, tools, whatever . . . very successful. One of the first outlet stores in the country, and I think it might have been the biggest at the time. As I said, consulting was my last hurrah. During all this that I told you about, I had my hands in about fifteen other businesses. When people needed money or advice, they asked me to become a partner. I became a partner-- not a working partner-- but with capital or input. It was very, very enjoyable getting along with all the people. SC: Could you also talk about your family background? And we'll go back to business then. Gail will go back to business. MS: Let me just finish off the business. The handbag business - we were bought out by Samsung. I had never heard the word before. They called me up ; they wanted me to sell the handbags. I said we were manufacturers, not salespeople. I would introduce them to whatever salespeople he wanted. When I first met him, I said, "Hello, Mr. Sung." He looked at me and said, "My name is not Sung. I represent Samsung." "Who is Samsung?" We all know who Samsung is today. GE: Although I didn't know about that type of product. MS: They were manufacturing handbags, but were unable to produce -- sell them where they wanted. They had heard about my sales ability -- not the mom and pop stores, but the shoe chains and major department stores -- that's where they wanted to go. SC: What major department stores? MS: Macy's, Gimbels, Korvette, everyone that you know of, we sold to. The best one was Marshalls. They made an agreement with me. They would buy all my leftovers when the season was over. This enabled me to produce to inventory for people like Macy's who placed an order and wanted the stuff the next week. SC: Could you talk a little about your family background? Your parents, grandparents, and names back as far as you know--and what they did and how they were educated. MS: My father was born in Austria and came here when he was a kid. My mother was born in NYC. I'll give you a little background. My grandfather, my father's father, must have been wealthy in Europe. They sent him to the United States to study, back in the early 1900s. After he finished studying, he went back to Europe. They financed him in a candy store. He ate the store broke! He ate up all the products! They came here -- my father was about ten years old, or something like that. My grandfather was in the piece goods business, selling remnants. GE: Material? MS: Yes. My father eventually did the same thing. He would go into one factory and see what they had leftover and go to another factory and tell them this is what I got? Do you want it? This is the price. So he'd go from one factory to another. My father's name was Herman, and my mother's name was Anna. His parents were Sam and Goldie. My mother's parents -- I do not know where they were born. My grandmother's name was Rifka Rachel. My grandfather's name -- I don't remember. I did not know what he did for a living. I know the first I knew of them, my grandmother was living in my house with us. SC: Were they from Austria? MS: I don't know. I have one sister named Doris. You don't want me to go into aunts and uncles? SC: So this was your mother's family? MS: Which? SC: That you've just been talking about. SC: How about your dad's side? MS: I told you about him, his name was Sam. SC: Do you know anything about your father's side? So, you don't know as much about your mother's side. MS: I do know something. They had a restaurant in lower NYC. That's the only thing I know. SC: So all that was your father's side of the family? MS: At first, I talked about my father's parents, who were Sam and Goldie. He was a piece goods guy. SC: So it's in your blood? Textiles and garment industry. MS: Not really, it was a means to make a living. I had no love for it or anything like that. Sure I liked it, but no love, nothing like that. SC: So, as far as any of the jobs, do you know any businesses or employment that any of your aunts and uncles worked in? Is there any connection with what we are looking at in the rest of the family? MS: In my father's family -- one of his brothers sold zippers. Another brother sold insurance, and.. he had two sisters. One sister was a housewife. The other sister had infantile paralysis when she was a kid, and she couldn't get around too much. She had to move to Arizona because of the weather. She remained single. My mother, on the other hand, had a sister. She was a housewife. She had a brother who was a customer peddler who sold house to house -- underwear and whatever have you. I'm trying to think of anybody else in my mother's family. My mother had a brother who was in the garment trade and made blouses. Another brother, who moved out to California, had a completely different life than we have here. I forget the relationship. One was a professor, another one was an attorney for all the stars out in Hollywood. He was a very handsome man. He was the youngest Colonel in the Air Force during WWII. He led one of Doolittle's wings over Tokyo. Really, that's about all I can think of. SC: It seems like a very high achieving family -- both sides. Can you talk about your wife's family, her background now, her family -- what you know about the family business? MS: Let's take her father, his name was William. He had a brother - they both worked in the handbag factory. Nina's mother -- her [last] name was Agaschevitz, shortened to Agus. A whole bunch of extremely intelligent people -- book-wise. [Nina's mother's family] One of them wasn't so smart on the streets. One was a doctor in Brooklyn. He was the smartest one of all. He studied the Tanakh and everything, all the books. He was a brilliant man. Another brother was a professor at Yeshiva University. GE: I'm sorry. These are Nina's siblings or Nina's parents' siblings? MS: Nina's mother's siblings. Another one was Jacob, who was a very well known and respected Rabbi in Baltimore. Another one was Paul. Unfortunately, he contracted Agent Orange in the service. He was an accountant, but he got affected by Agent Orange. She had another sister who was a housewife. Her name was Jean Bruch. Father's name was William Bruch. SC: Can you spell that? For the future, it's good to have names spelled. MS: Are you recording this whole thing? SC: Yes. MS: This is not to be shown to everybody for anything? It's for reference? SC: It's for our reference. It wouldn't be for many years that it will be used. To have it archived. These are histories that need to be preserved. What's your wife's full name? What is Nina's full name? MS: Her birth name or current? SC: Birth name. MS: Nina Silverstein. GE: Her name now is Silverstein, what was her birth name? MS: Bruch. But it wasn't Nina. It was Pauline. GE: So Nina is a nickname. MS: Yes, when she was born, one of her uncles -- the one afflicted with Agent Orange -- started calling her Nina or Ninya. Nina went to Shulamith School in Brooklyn. That's the same kind of school that I went to, only it was for girls, mine was for boys. Then she went to Ramaz in NYC for High School, and also college was City College of the City of New York, etc, etc. Nina did bookkeeping when she graduated school and while we were in California. She was a housewife until my youngest daughter was around eight years old. She was a leader of many organizations around town. She was going to lead a group of [Jewish] Federation people to Israel, but the plans fell through, much to her disliking. She came home and was crying. She had all these plans. SC: Can we talk about Nina and her background or what she did, and your children? MS: As I said, Nina was the leader of many organizations. In fact, she won the George Feldman Award. The George Feldman Award is for a leader under forty. She was supposed to win the first one, but they asked her to take the second one because Arnie Rapapport was turning forty, and he was second in line, and they wanted to get him in. With this trip that I told you about, she came home crying because this agency was not agreeing with her -- trying to think of his name-- head of the Federation at that time. GE: Ivan Schonfeld. MS: No, I'm talking about a volunteer. A lawyer, CPA, and a tax attorney -- I forget. They went into New York City to talk about it, and there was no cooperation. He told her to forget about the trip. He told the travel bureau (it was a wholesale travel bureau.) She came home and was crying because of all the work she had done. I said, "Do you still want to do it?" She said certainly. I said I'll fix it up for you. I called some man in New York -- he was the head of a wholesale travel agency. I sent her in, and she went in, and they had a wonderful trip. She wanted to go into the travel business. She went to school to study travel. She opened a travel agency with Sandy Zales. This goes back almost forty years. She was in business until ten years ago. SC: What was the name of the business? MS: Travel Team. We all had imaginations for naming. I named it Handbags and Luggage. She named it Travel Team. She did this for a long time. A lot of people were very happy with her service, and it was a successful agency. SC: A couple of questions - you talked a little bit about the Jewish community and her work in it, a little bit about your work in it, was there anything else that the two of you did within the community of Allentown and in the Jewish community? MS: Yes, most of our work, but not all of it, was in the Jewish community, as we were a minority, a very low percentage of the population, so any help you could do, you did. I, myself, was involved in many organizations, including B'nai B'rith, the Jewish War Veterans and most of all, the Jewish Day School. In fact, I was President of the Jewish Day School in the late 70's -- I don't remember the exact year. We were members of Temple Beth El. At Temple Beth El they asked me to be the President of the Cemetery Association, which I did for twenty-five to thirty years. It was a thankless job, everyone said, but for me, it gave me great pleasure because I didn't have to go to meetings or anything like that. I did the work, raised a lot of money. We had lot sales [burial plots]. Were you around at that time? GE: No -- or I don't know--.. MS: Lot Sales -- I had a map of the cemetery in my office, downstairs. People came in and picked a cemetery lot. Do you want a funny story? This girl comes in -- we won't mention names -- she looks at the map, and she says, "Let me get my father." Her father was out in the car. So, she shows dad a cemetery lot and says, "What about over here for you and mom." He says, "I think I'd like it over there." This went back and forth. "Pop. What goes here? A pinochle player, a cigar smoker, whatever, I think this would be good for you." He finally said okay.. . but I have to show it to mom. Mom was out in the car. Mom came down and agreed with him and everything. "It's fine--.but she would rather be where the daughter said." After a while mom died, he called me up, "remember the side that I wanted? Let's put her over there." And I'm telling you, if I knew what was going to happen with all these stories down there, I'd have had a tape recorder. We would never have a problem with the budget in Temple Beth El because it would be a hit Broadway show! SC: Since you've come to Allentown, and of course you were married when you came to Allentown, how do you think the Lehigh Valley has changed in these years? MS: When I came to Allentown, it was a sleepy little town. You could virtually cross Tilghman Street with your eyes closed. There were no cars coming from either way. Today, it ain't so baby! At one time, I would say that I knew every Jewish person in town. We were members of three Synagogues. Ultimately, we broke it down to one. It was a wonderful, wonderful community. Everybody was for each other. Now I don't know, maybe it's because of our age. I know very few people as compared to that time. But Nina and I were involved in all the Crosses: the Blue Cross, the Green Cross, the Red Cross, whatever. SC: What were the names of the Synagogues that you belonged to? Which Synagogue did you join? MS: The main one was Temple Beth El, also Sons of Israel and Knesseth Israel (KI as it's currently known.) We were very much involved with the Jewish community. We had a daughter, and when she graduated from college, she toured Europe and went to Israel and liked it there and settled there. We have been to Israel numerous times before. Between my daughter and whatever we were, we have been to Israel about thirty times. SC: Do you think there is a reason that the next generation isn't staying in Allentown? At least that's what we've been hearing over and over again, that people have moved away, your children's generation. MS: Let's take a look, what was the leading industry? When we moved here, one of the leading industries - I'm not talking about Air Products, Bethlehem Steel, or whatever. The industries that I knew were the garment trade industry. All those people that you talked about at the meeting at the JCC I know or knew all of them intimately--it's not so anymore. When the kids grew up, like my kids, this one is a mathematician, this one is a business person. I guess they don't have the opportunity in Allentown like they have in Washington, DC -- where one of them is. SC: What is that child's name in Washington? MS: Elissa Drucker. Another one in Palo Alto, California, in the midst of -- what do you call that industry? GE: High Tech? MS: High Tech Industry. You walk down the street, and there is the head of Microsoft - shopping in the same store and drugstores. You don't have that anymore. The last one of them was Bell Labs, part of Western Electric. It's a different kind of town. SC: Is that a son or daughter in California? MS: That's a daughter. SC: What's her name? MS: Lori Blum. And then I have a son, Ronald, who is with Amtrak for about twenty-five years. Each one of them has been in their job and never changed. GE: Which one lives in Israel? MS: Lori. About ten years ago, she and her family moved to Palo Alto because her husband felt, and rightfully so, that the education was better here -- more opportunities. GE: So they originally lived in Israel and then moved to California? MS: Yes. Take a look at Hamilton Street. You used to go down to Hess's and go shopping there. They had sales--you stood at the door at 4:00 am. You ran to the refrigerator and wrapped your arms around it until the clerk came. There's no such thing anymore. There's no strawberry pie like we had at Hess's downstairs. The other stores were Zollinger and Leh's. Now we go out to the concrete malls with the fountains--no more chandeliers. To me, it's just a different atmosphere. Look where I live. I live at 22nd and Highland. I've lived here almost fifty years now. We had neighbors, they all picked up and (I won't say it) moved to the other side of Cedar Crest Boulevard. Instead of a 2,000 foot house, they have a 4,000-foot house. Instead of a Ford, they have a Lexus and whatever have you. This didn't interest me or Nina. And it's different. GE: I just want to ask some more questions about the business. You said this was your father-in-law - do you want to tell me about the origins of the business? MS: My father-in-law, I can't tell you why he started the business, but I can imagine. These garment trades -- it didn't take too much money. You bought a couple of sewing machines and put them in the basement and got your wife to sew. He was manufacturing in Connecticut. He had a problem with the Union there. He had a contractor who was making handbags for him in Pennsburg. He was manufacturing in Connecticut, and he might have had one of two other contractors. The plant in Pennsburg -- the company- went bankrupt. He got permission from the Referee in Bankruptcy to go into the [Pennsburg] factory and finish off all the bags that they had there. GE: So they were in Chapter 11? MS: Yeah the ones in Pennsburg--.no maybe Chapter 7 or 13 -Going out of business. He went in there and finished off the bags, and he liked the setup -- the life in Pennsburg very much. Between that and the Union in Connecticut, he decided to close in Connecticut and made a deal with the Referee in Bankruptcy and bought all the machines and equipment in Pennsburg, and rented the building in Pennsburg, where he manufactured handbags. What happened in 1958, he wrote me a letter--. GE: Right, that's when you entered. MS: I was in Pennsburg, we were there five or ten years of my time. There became a building available in Red Hill. We bought it at auction, and we owned our own building in Red Hill. That's where we manufactured most of our years of the business. Unfortunately, while we were there, my older daughter (who was about ten years old) was in a Hanukkah play at the Jewish Day School. My father-in-law went to see it, then he left for Brooklyn where his wife lived. I didn't mention, his wife lived in Brooklyn all the time. He stayed in Pennsburg during the week, and she came out for the summertime. So he would go home for the weekends. Hanukkah (is in December), so this is the winter, and unfortunately, he was killed in a car accident on the way home. So we kept the plant going --in Red Hill -- until we sold out to Samsung. GE: I've heard the name Pennsburg, but where is that? MS: Route 29 towards the end. There was a big difference between the two people. One was an entrepreneur, and one was a worker. My father-in-law was an entrepreneur and a very hard worker. GE: And his brother worked for him? MS: Yes. GE: Did you mention that you had a partner? MS: Yes, that is Nina's brother. He was at the factory when I got there. He had been working several years before I got there. GE: Your father-in-law was the originator, and then his brother worked for him. Did you become a partner or owner? MS: Not while my father-in-law was alive. We were workers there, and after he died, obviously, we became the owners. GE: That was you and Nina's brother. MS: Yes, Izzy Bruch. GE: Were there any other family members in the business? MS: No. GE: Did your brother-in-law also live in the area? MS: Yes. GE: Does he still live here in the area? MS: No, he moved to Florida a few years ago. GE: But up until that time, he lived here. So you made pocketbooks. Were they under store labels? MS: It was under the name we named them, which was "Charisma la Sac." GE: Is that two words? MS: Three words. GE: Charisma la Sac. When I see the name today, I see the name La Sac. MS: In that industry, everybody copied from everybody else. It wasn't patented or copyrighted. GE: So it was under your own brand name, not a store brand. MS: No, No, No. GE: You made pocketbooks. Were there other related products that you made? MS: Amy, can you show her the double umbrella? Do we have it hanging there? We had these things made for us, not that we made it. This is the first one. GE: Oh my goodness, I have never seen one. It's interesting. MS: We had a line of bags and umbrellas where we personalized it with your name. GE: Was it personalized by an embroiderer? Or some sort of marker? MS: Yes. A girl with beautiful handwriting. GE: Like a calligrapher. You were a manufacturer, so did you have your own sales force? MS: Absolutely! When you say a sales force, we had a couple salesmen on our payroll, but most of the salespeople were on commission. GE: They were reps, sales reps? MS: Yes, all over the country. GE: And they represented your merchandise as well as others. MS: Correct. GE: How large were you? How many people worked there? MS: In the factory in Red Hill? GE: About? MS: I'm just trying to picture it--.70. For a while, we had another factory in Wilkes-Barre. But we really depended on contractors to fill what we couldn't produce. GE: Like load-leveling? I guess it's called. MS: Right. GE: About how many contractors did you use? MS: We had six. GE: What part of the business did you oversee? MS: I oversaw the business end of the business. GE: Are you saying the financials? MS: Yes, the financials. The sales to large companies, for instance. I had an entry into Macy's warehouse. At Macy's warehouse I would see the inventories they had, and I would write up orders to six to eight stores. At that time they were all over the country. I sold to bigger accounts. GE: Was that you and a couple of salespeople? Did you do the bigger accounts, and the salespeople do the smaller ones? MS: And they did bigger accounts, too. The ones in New York -- I did most of them. They had their cronies that they sold to ..and all over. They did good jobs. You know these golf tournaments that they have? We made bags for Bob Hope Golf Tournaments and things like that. GE: Do you mean golf bags? MS: No, I mean pocketbooks. They have volunteers at the tournament -- so if you are a volunteer, they might give you a t-shirt and a handbag as thanks. We did a lot of bags for Mack Trucks -- we put Bulldogs all over the place. We had Mr. Hanson drive out to Red Hill in his limousine and pick up bags because they were hurting at that moment. GE: And who is Mr. Hanson? MS: The Chairman of Mack Trucks. It was very strange to see a limousine pull up to a shipping dock. GE: So, therefore, what you're telling me is that you didn't just do fashion bags. You also did bags that would be used by companies? Businesses. MS: No, they were fashion bags. They chose them out of a line. For instance, Mack Trucks, we didn't make anything special for them other than fasten the bulldog on. They had to let us know beforehand because when we manufactured it, you didn't want to put it through the lining on the inside, so we would put it through and then fill in the lining. So, it was just for them. GE: But they were fashion bags? The materials that you were using, was it leather? MS: Initially, we used the highest grade of vinyl, but expanded vinyl. I would defy anyone -- without smelling -- to tell if it's leather or vinyl. The only way they can tell is if there happens to have a scratch on it then, it's an animal. And we also made bags of leather. We made both. We also made bags that sold for three dollars a long time ago. Fabric and cheaper vinyl. GE: And all with the same name? MS: Initially, before we got fancy. It was Make Well Leather Goods Company. And then when we got fancy, we changed it to Charisma La Sac. We even had some designers. GE: But, whether it was the three-dollar bag or fifty dollar bag -- it all was the same brand name? MS: The three dollar bag went out of the business. We stuck to the higher priced ones. GE: So Marshall, you're saying that the part of the business that you oversaw more was the financial and also the sales side. How about your brother-in-law? MS: My brother-in-law took care of the manufacturing, and also he designed some bags, and he cut samples to make the bags. We had a high-class designer in New York, called Magda McKay. We had a line of Magda McKay bags. SC: Is that Magda McKay? MS: The name just came out. Do you know what they asked me, "What address was I born at." And you know, I named it just like that. GE: When your brother-in-law bought you out, did they stay in business for a long time? MS: Not very long. They went bankrupt. GE: About how many years later? MS: About three quarters of a year. It was our difference in philosophy that he wanted, and I said we couldn't do it. He wanted to be the King -- at this point, we were not manufacturing any longer. We had the retail stores -- the discount stores. He wanted to be "King of the Discount Stores." We didn't have the foundation to support it. GE: When did you stop manufacturing, and why did you stop manufacturing? MS: About thirty-five years ago -- 1975/1980 -- somewhere in that vicinity is when we stopped manufacturing. We were of the belief -- we wanted to be "made in USA." We went to that for years and found competition very, very strong because they [overseas] had it made for half price. Then one year JCPenney -- these kinds of stores order six months in advance -- not like Macy's who wants it next week. JCPenney would ordinarily buy from me two, maximum three styles, because they couldn't put all their eggs in one basket because they bought from many people. So if somebody failed to deliver, they are not out of business. This particular year, JCPenney walked in and loved everything we had and bought thirteen styles. Thirteen styles to us was overwhelming if we are going to continue to produce for Macy's and Gimbels -- so we had to go overseas. We went overseas, and we had these thirteen bags made by a factory, and the next year is when Samsung came to us. Why? Because they have company spies. They knew every style we made there, how many of each color, and they felt if I could sell ours then I could sell theirs. GE: So If I understand correctly, Samsung then became the manufacturer, and you really became the distribution channel for them? MS: No, No, No, Samsung was a manufacturer. They couldn't sell anything. They had this idle production, they made bags for us. We still sold it on the "Charisma la Sac" -- that was it. GE: After that, you basically gave them entry into those stores. And, they provided the merchandise for you. MS: What they did was they bought our factory so we couldn't produce anymore. They bought our name, and they bought me. They wouldn't even buy my partner. But I said I wouldn't go without my partner. They said, "You sign a contract with us, and we have to send it to Korea, and if approved, you can do anything you want here -- you can hire your partner." So I had a three-year contract. After about a year and a half, I was called to their office in New Jersey -- located right before the George Washington Bridge. The President of Samsung America and his wife and family attended one of our Seder's here -- that's how close we were. But, an outfit like that is all business. Not necessarily smart. They called me in, and I got there maybe ten o'clock in the morning. The secretary said your partner is on the phone. He said, "Guess what? We got security here with canine dogs. Samsung has taken over the warehouse." I said, " yeah?" "What should I do?" he says. I told him to go to our lawyer, who is around the corner. I told him to get a "Cease and desist." I went into the meeting, and they told me very politely, "Your services are no longer necessary." So I was literally fired. Why? Well, you got us into Irving Shoes, got us into Sears, we're in J.C. Penney's, we're here, we're there, we're everywhere. Why do we need you? And they were right, providing they had inventory. But, I was dealing now with six months in advance orders. What they found out was they weren't buying Samsung, they were buying me -- on my word. In other words, they had explicit faith [in me], that over all these years, I delivered what and when I said I would deliver! They couldn't take the chance to find out about these guys, and they were out of business in the handbag business. The rest of the business should be mine - the sugar mines, the salt mines, they manufacture trains, everything! They were out of business. They couldn't get the business. GE: Tell us a little bit about the Outlet Stores? When did you start that? I know you said that actually became the largest part. MS: Yes, and by the way, in the contract that I had with Samsung, it said that I would devote my prime hours to Samsung, and I'm the one who decides what the prime hours are. I devote my attention to it, but I could run this outlet store business. And the contract was drawn up legally, so the verbiage was good. Now, what was your question? GE: With the outlet stores, I was wondering when that started, what did that trajectory look like? MS: I would say it started about 1965/1970. GE: Did there seem to be any conflict? In other words, did the other stores have a problem? MS: No. I didn't sell my merchandise or very little of my merchandise. I went into New York and just like Marshall's did -- buying excess inventory. I bought their inventory. GE: I thought it was for your product. It wasn't for your product? MS: Well we had some of our products there. GE: That wasn't the bulk. MS: We had a vast store in Reading, and we also sold luggage. We didn't manufacture the luggage, but we sold almost as much luggage as we did handbags. Better names. SC: Was that the hey-day of Reading as an outlet center? MS: When I started there, it was the one store. After I started there, they added stores - then it became their hey-day. And believe me - I got plenty of thanks from them. It was quite an accomplishment! GE: So you were there before Lee? MS: NO, NO, NO, Lee is VF. They had their store - a big, tremendous store. Then they put stores in all the buildings that they had. GE: This is in the other buildings. I know that there still is a luggage store. That's the store you started. MS: Right now, the President of VF there is also the President of Samsonite. GE: Basically, you're saying that the business model was that you bought inventory -- the leftover inventory from some of the different manufacturers at the end of their season. MS: Not necessarily at the end of their season. Whenever I walked in, they had plenty to sell. GE: But you were able to get them at a better price. MS: Oh, a much better price. Most of it was for cash. I used to go to Merchant's bank -- every Monday afternoon, I got $25,000.00 in cash. That's when a dollar was something. I went into New York and bought what I could. On Wednesday, I went back and deposited into the account what I didn't spend. GE: Are there any other stories? Interesting stories, whether it's about the outlets or the handbag manufacturer -- that you want to share with us? MS: Some stuff I don't want to talk about. I'll talk about... I told you the story of Samsung. I will tell you the story of the demise of our business. My partner wanted to expand and expand. I told him we don't have the wherewithal to do it and it's a wrong move. I told him that I would sell off the twelve stores other than VF and work VF, what do they call it today, 24-7. And, well that didn't happen, and so when I left, he started paying attention to new stores to open and he forgot about and didn't pay much attention to VF. And like I said before, VF was the bread and butter and the other ones were little cookies. VF was very proud of what they had. I remember walking in there with Nina about five months later, and I stood in the middle of the store, and I cried. And Nina said what's wrong. I said they are going to kick him out of here any day, and that's what happened. And that's what really triggered the demise of losing that anchor store. But the only thing I could think of . . . nothing from him-- I'm a very even person. GE: Yeah, how do you think the broader community, not just the Lehigh Valley, has been affected by, but even maybe the broader area has been affected by the disappearance of this industry? MS: I think it's been affected tremendously and when I say tremendously, I am thinking tremendously. There are no more businesses like we knew back then. Mom and pop factories. There were dozens of contractors around here. They weren't handbag contractors around here, but there were blouse contractors and blouse manufacturers and bathing suit manufacturers. There was a company called Neat-Knits who manufactured women's blouses. I forget the name of the other one, the bathing suits, and Mark Stutz's father was in that business and It's a whole different atmosphere now. There we counted on our fingers, we wrote numbers on a piece of paper and we added them up. Now, if you don't have an iPad and a computer, you can't do anything. Yeah. And I'll tell you, we will have one of the first manufacturers that had a computer. And I respect that. But you can't rely on that to do everything for you. GE: How about even just the economic well-being of this community? Do you think it's been altered or things move on. MS: It's hard for me to say because I'm on one side of town, and I'm not affected too much about the economy over here. Not too much affected, but I've seen the other side of town, the people starving. They're on welfare, they're on food stamps, they're on unemployment. And we didn't have that back then. We sure had some minor stuff, but not the overwhelming majority. Because I know some guy is now completing his third year of unemployment, not because there isn't a job available. He makes more money on unemployment than he would make working. The economy. Look what happened to downtown Allentown. When . . . it went to Hell. Starting with the Americus Hotel, which used to be a beautiful hotel. It gave me an opportunity. I did a lot of real estate, I bought buildings for a song downtown. When I say a song, I mean a song. Maybe it's going to pick up now with the new arena, the rebuilding of Allentown. But it's now which mall am I going to go to. GE: Are you still involved in the real estate down there? MS: No, I sold everything when Nina got dementia, severe dementia. I felt it's time to forget about that and pay attention to my wife. SC: So were you an investor in the Americus Hotel? MS: No, no, no, no, no. I had a building right across the street. SC: Oh, OK. MS: That's why that came to mind. GE: Why do you think the Jews tended to be overrepresented in this industry? GE: Why do you think they were maybe overrepresented in this industry as opposed to any other industry? What do you think? MS: I mentioned something before, and I'll say it again. To get into the garment trade you didn't have to have a lot of money comparatively to start a business. You couldn't start a steel mill if you didn't have money and you couldn't start a department store like Hudson's, if you didn't have money. But you could buy a table, and a pair of shears, and six sewing machines, and some thread and sew up. . . sew up blouses, sew up pocketbooks, sew up anything. And Jews tend to be entrepreneurs, and not many of them had money when they came out from the other country or whatever. And this gave them an opportunity to start their own business. GE: Good. Good. SC: I have a couple other questions, and one of them is, what has your family valued in life most and what do you value in life most? MS: In one word it is FAMILY. I came from Los Angeles because I told you about my father-in-law asking me, but also our first child was born, and I felt children deserve grandparents and grandparents deserve grandchildren. And to this day, my family is everything. Oh, certainly, friends are very important, but family is primary. SC: And what has made you feel the most creative, artistic in a metaphoric sense, but creative in life? MS: Slightly focused, not slightly . . . I'm very focused on numbers. I can manipulate numbers. For my benefit, meaning, for instance, having thirteen stores. These thirteen stores, when you go in stores, people used to pay cash. Yeah, some credit card, some check, most paid cash. Now, there's a store in Texas, there's a store in Florida. You're not there, and I could tell you, I believe, every dollar that hit a cash register went into our till. I don't know how many dollars didn't hit the cash register because you know employee theft is higher than customer theft. What I did was I had detectives come in to try and steal something and see how observant people were. I had-- what do they call it-- subliminal music in the stores, made and created for us. GE: Wait a minute, for what purpose was the music? MS: The subliminal part said stealing wins you a trip to jail. Are you by any chance chewing gum, and that's for the employees. Are there any bulbs out in the store? Anything I wanted to get to them that was important. GE: Interesting. MS: Just like when you go to the movie theater, they may blow the popcorn your way and don't they sell the Coke subliminally? Yes, they do. But I was able to maneuver money. When I need money, people wanted to invest. I wouldn't have any of it. I would go to the bank. Work with banks. I did very well with them. In fact, the Temple that we built, they asked me to get the money to build it. I got a deal for the Temple, the bankers didn't believe existed. One of our members owns part of a bank, he wouldn't believe the contract that we got. I said I'll show it to you in writing when I have it. And then the Temple asked me to monitor the spending of the money and keep track of it, etc. I said, only if you let me set up my system with the. . . I wouldn't do it without it. Oh, certainly,what's the big deal? The big deal is you have people working for you that are going to protest. Sure enough, they did, because the checks and balances that were in there were unbelievable, and it was after, just after, two outfits,a synagogue and a JCC, I think,in Philadelphia were hit by their executive director and where a lot of money was stolen. This money that we took in, it was virtually impossible for anybody to get away with it. They might get away with it for a month until you got your statement saying you owe one hundred dollars. Well, I gave you fifty last time. Well, we don't have the 50. That just couldn't happen. I'm very happy that we went through this over, what, a five year period or something. Nobody said, hey, you intermingled money, where's this hundred dollars from there? So I'm good with money. In fact, my consulting business was mainly getting money for businesses from banks-- not insurance companies, not loan sharks, from banks. And when I walked in, I said,they are good for the money. I'm not saying they didn't check, you know, but they felt confident. Other times I said the bank could beware, but you're on your own. You know, I'm just bringing them to you. GE: And so, in a sense, your comparative advantage or your strength that way is that you're really savvy and you really understand the inner-workings of the financial statements in a way and really understanding the money flows. SC: And that is artistic. Yeah. Oh, that is artistic. GE: Yeah, it is. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:35:46
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Marshall Silverstein, July 30, 2013
Description
An account of the resource
Marshall Silverstein talks about how he and his brother-in-law joined Marshall’s father-in-law’s business making handbags in Pennsburg, PA. Marshall stayed in that business for 22 years. While running the factory, Marshall and his partner started an outlet handbag and luggage business in Reading, PA. They expanded to thirteen outlet stores. It was a very successful business. After retiring at age fifty, Marshall began doing financial consulting, first with First Valley Bank in Bethlehem, then with other customers. He did financial consulting for another twenty years.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LVTNT-09
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-07-30
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archies
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.
-
https://textile.digitalarchives.muhlenberg.edu/files/original/124a6e872a4321604eaa27023cc11bd1.png
2eba0d9a5bd195723b79f567410a5b5c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Martin Goldstein
OHMS Object
This field contains the OHMS Hyperlink (link to the XML file within the OHMS
Viewer)
https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-03.xml
OHMS Object Text
This field contains the OHMS Index and / or Transcript and is what makes the
contents of the OHMS object searchable in Omeka
5.4 July 16, 2013 Martin Goldstein, July 16, 2013 LVTNT-03 1:33:33 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Martin Goldstein Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 GoldsteinMartin_20130716 1.0:|29(2)|56(14)|77(11)|102(3)|119(10)|134(12)|155(2)|182(9)|201(10)|220(14)|243(15)|264(2)|281(12)|296(3)|313(10)|338(10)|359(11)|380(11)|401(2)|420(6)|449(14)|474(3)|499(8)|518(2)|535(5)|562(4)|587(7)|608(4)|635(4)|650(8)|673(7)|692(7)|709(15)|730(17)|757(13)|780(19)|799(4)|816(16)|839(5)|864(5)|885(3)|902(6)|919(8)|942(15)|967(6)|984(5)|1009(6)|1032(10)|1059(9)|1078(11)|1097(16)|1116(2)|1137(15)|1160(17)|1187(4)|1210(3)|1239(10)|1260(8)|1277(16)|1304(15)|1337(5)|1356(16)|1385(3)|1406(2)|1433(8)|1454(7)|1479(4)|1498(13)|1529(15)|1552(9)|1573(5)|1600(13)|1629(6)|1654(12)|1683(13)|1706(14)|1743(8)|1764(7)|1801(7)|1826(6)|1855(11)|1878(9)|1899(2)|1918(11)|1945(4)|1962(2)|1985(8)|2014(11)|2041(3)|2080(2)|2119(4)|2150(5)|2191(5)|2202(4) 0 https://youtu.be/FV3g13IKz5U YouTube video 0 Introduction—Martin Goldstein SC: Today is July 16th, and this is an interview with Martin Goldstein, and interviewers are Susan Clemens-Bruder first, and then Gail Eisenberg, on the Garment and Textile Industries. And I might be asking you some questions that seem sort of as if I should know the answers or whatever, but for the future, that’s why we want to get everything down on the- on the tape.
 ; 
 ; MG: Yes, I understand.
 ; 
 ; SC: First of all I’d like to have you put yourself in your own personal content. What’s your full name?
 ; 
 ; MG: Martin Goldstein.
 ; 
 ; SC: Okay. And where and when were you born?
 ; 
 ; MG: I was born in New York, in 19- in August 22nd, 1925.
 ; 
 ; SC: Oh. And where in New York? What- Do you remember your address?
 ; 
 ; MG: Yes, yes I do—only because my mother kept talking about it. Martin Goldstein, let’s see, 555 Green Avenue, Brooklyn, New York. 0 74 Martin's Education in Allentown, PA SC: So you lived there, what was your educational history?
 ; 
 ; MG: I graduated high school. 
 ; 
 ; SC: Okay. Where did you go to elementary school, junior high school, and high school?
 ; 
 ; MG: I went- I went to Raub Junior High School and then Allentown High School, and that’s- that was the extent of my education. 0 93 1927: Family Moves from Brooklyn, NY to Allentown, PA to Work at Arcadia Knitting Mills SC: When did you move to Allentown from Brooklyn?
 ; 
 ; MG: Well let’s see, I was born in [1925]—1927.
 ; 
 ; SC: So your family moved. Did they- Did they move to change businesses? Did they move for another reason? To join family?
 ; 
 ; MG: They moved- They moved because the- the business- they had a job- They had a job at Arcadia Knitting Mills. And they were five brothers, and they decided that is was- They had quite a business, and they decided that it would be better to build in Allentown, where labor was cheaper. So they moved- Came- They came here—I guess that’s- I guess that’s in... They built- They built the Arcadia Knitting Mill at 8th and Pittston St. It’s an L-shaped building, which still stands today—five stories high. 0 165 Martin's Education (cont'd) SC: So you went, first of all, to elementary school here? You were two when you moved?
 ; 
 ; MG: Yes.
 ; 
 ; SC: And- And would you repeat what elementary school you went to?
 ; 
 ; MG: I went to Raub Junior High School, and then went to Allentown High School, at that time. It’s Allen today, but Allentown at that time. 
 ; 
 ; SC: And did you have a particular interest in high school?
 ; 
 ; MG: No, I just the regular- the regular general curricula- curriculum.
 ; 
 ; SC: Did you do any educational work beyond high school?
 ; 
 ; MG: No, nothing else. 0 205 Early Work Experiences SC: And also, where have you worked from the- your very first job, whether it was a paperboy or whatever, your very first job all through your life?
 ; 
 ; MG: Very first job was when—before the malls—I worked at the- the- for example hat stores. You know, the old lady hat stores? Not old lady—ladies hat stores. 
 ; 
 ; SC: In olden times?
 ; 
 ; MG: In olden times, right. And just like a stock boy, I made—you’re going to laugh—it’s maybe 18-20 cents an hour, that was good at that time.
 ; 
 ; SC: Do you remember how old you were when you started working there?
 ; 
 ; MG: I was probably 16.
 ; 
 ; SC: And after working there, when did you leave the hat store?
 ; 
 ; MG: Oh from there, let me see—what did I do? I worked at like an upholstery place—Lang’s Upholstery—for some time, and over there- Well there was different odd jobs, and I did different things, it’s all depended. 0 470 Family History So can I ask you some questions about your own family background? So what do you know about your parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents, any- as far back as you know? Where they were born?
 ; 
 ; MG: Well my father- my father was born in Russia and my mother in Poland.
 ; 
 ; GE: And their names?
 ; 
 ; MG: And their names were Morris and Sarah. I believe what he did—see, this is some of the—I believe he moved, he must have moved to Poland later on, and he was with my- He met my mother at about the age of 14. 
 ; 
 ; SC: So they relocated from Russia to Poland.
 ; 
 ; MG: And she was- Yeah. She was working in an ice cream parlor, and they courted for about 4 years, you know. He says, “I fell in love with her because she was always laughing. I’d introduce her to somebody,” he says, “and she walked away laughing. You just couldn’t- I just couldn’t- She was such a happy person.” Actually, that followed throughout her life. She was great among all of us—to help us out.
 ; 
 ; SC: Did they come to the United States together?
 ; 
 ; MG: Yes, they did. They were born—I don’t know how true it is—but they always said their birthday was April 20th, 1898. 0 977 Father & ; Uncle's Employments in the Arcadia Knitting Mills (cont'd) MG: The Reinharts asked my father and uncle to join them in the new building in Allentown. The Arcadia Knitting Mill became the second largest knitting mill in the US. The knitting mill in Pittston, NJ was the largest, so... It didn’t mean anything to them because they were workers, and that was before the Union. As you might expect, wages were low at the time. My father and uncle, both foreman, made 10 cents an hour more than the other workers. There were like I said no unions, so they paid what they wanted. But what he had- The good thing was that foremen were not laid off, so I never knew there was a- a Depression. You could understand to me there was always food on the table. I also knew because I heard them discuss the budget at the end of the week how we are going to make things go. But they always managed. And one thing he said we’re going to do was have a vacation. We went away to the mountains one year and the shore the next and it was always- There was always, always good times.
 ; 
 ; SC: So your dad was a foreman?
 ; 
 ; MG: Yeah, he was a foreman and my uncle was, too.
 ; 
 ; SC: Both of them. And were they foreman because of working so well in New York and then being invited down? 
 ; 
 ; MG: Right, that’s why they came, yeah, right. 0 1134 1940: End of Arcadia Knitting Mills MG: My dad and uncle received unemployment compensation after the business closed.
 ; 
 ; SC: When did it close?
 ; 
 ; MG: It closed, let me see, 1940- About 1940. For a couple of years they had a Victory Garden. You know? And it was time to get a job and they decided to go into the business.
 ; 
 ; SC: So during the war, they had a Victory Garden, during World War II?
 ; 
 ; MG: During the war, they had a Victory Garden. Before that the other people, you know, when you were laid off you had nothing—you had to go for, I forget, what was it called at the time? There was a name for that. 
 ; 
 ; SC: Well, it would be—not unemployment—insurance, at that time. 
 ; 
 ; MG: No, it wouldn’t be, it wouldn’t be. It’d be some kind of aid you’d get. A lot of people were ashamed of this, they figured this was wrong, yet there were no jobs. 0 1249 Family History (cont'd) SC: So, when—just back up, because we’ll go into the business- more of the business questions a little bit later, but to go back, do you know any other names in your family? Any names, your mother’s maiden name, grandparents on both sides?
 ; 
 ; MG: Well let's see, my father, Pop Morris, let’s see, he had- He was one of five children, all came to America, five children. There was Jeanette, May, Francis, and Al. 
 ; 
 ; SC: So that was your mother’s mother’s family?
 ; 
 ; MG: I know their Jewish names, too.
 ; 
 ; SC: Oh good.
 ; 
 ; MG: I don’t know if you need that.
 ; 
 ; SC: Sure, sure.
 ; 
 ; GE: This is your father, Morris. These are his siblings?
 ; 
 ; MG: Yeah, right. Morris’s name was Moshe, and Jeanette was Shandyl. May was Malkeh. M-A-L-K-E-H. And Francis was Frumeh, and Al was Avraham. It was Abraham, but at that time- 
 ; 
 ; GE: That’s the Yiddish name.
 ; 
 ; MG: At that time he tried not to- not to- He was in the gold business of some type. A gold portion studio, he made gold inlays and things like that. 0 2012 Martin's Relationship to the Jewish Community: Perspective on Change, Personal Involvement, and Encounters with Anti-Semitism SC: So what was the Jewish community like when you were young? And how has it changed over time?
 ; 
 ; MG: Well, first of all, there were- Most of the Jewish people knew each other pretty well. You knew all the Jewish people. It was, the Temple was small – we had a small Temple at 12th and Walnut St. And around 1950 they decided to build that temple, a big temple.
 ; 
 ; SC: Just for the record, what Temple was that? 
 ; 
 ; MG: Temple Beth El. 
 ; 
 ; SC: Yes. So you went to the old Temple Beth El?
 ; 
 ; MG: Yes, from a place that was like a twin house, for maybe a hundred whatever it was, it could hold a hundred people or so, to a, well, a very large temple. 
 ; 
 ; SC: Do you know the address of the original Temple?
 ; 
 ; MG: I would say 12th and Walnut Street, the corner of- 
 ; 
 ; SC: 12th and Walnut Street, at the corner. 
 ; 
 ; GE: So not 12th and Chew—12th and Walnut?
 ; 
 ; MG: 12th and Walnut, definitely 12th and Walnut. 
 ; 
 ; SC: And then-
 ; 
 ; MG: Right down the street was the Funeral Home—Bachman, Bachman Funeral Home. At the time, there were no other Jewish funeral people, you know. So that’s where- He took care of the burials. 0 2972 Growing Freedom and Integration of the Jewish Community in the Broader Allentown Community SC: You mentioned a little bit how the Jewish community has changed over time, being more cohesive in the early years, and then maybe even more tight now but in a different way. But has it changed in any other way?
 ; 
 ; MG: I think in general that people are freer today than before so I don’t think you’re defensive like you had to be in those days. I belong to the Mora Club, Men of Retirement Age, and I may be the only Jewish person, probably the only Jewish person who ever worked there- that ever joined. But it’s a nice organization, men and any- I feel- I feel comfortable around the Christian people as well as- and I think that’s pretty much the norm today. It was different then. See it’s- It’s not acceptable today. 0 3050 Goldstein Family's Relationship with other Jewish Families in the Community SC: [W]hat families were you friendly with in the Jewish community? Like the Mishkins?
 ; 
 ; MG: Families I- Like I said, my mother and dad, and my aunt and uncle were pretty much- They went out together. A good time was a Saturday night movie, you know, that’s what you did. Every week. It was fifty cents—it was probably cheaper in the early years, it was less than that. And the way- What they did- What we did at weekends, now that I think of it, went on picnics. My mother would pack up a cooler, you know, with all the sandwiches and all the- My- My mother, my father, my sisters, and their husbands, in the early years, and some of them, before they had children, and sometimes after they had children. They were all small. We would go to Cedar Beach or- Not Cedar Beach, Lehigh Parkway a lot. Yeah. And picniced. We’d get a table early and that- that- that was it. That’s a good time.
 ; 
 ; SC: Did- As you got older, and- and in the decades since the ‘80s, have you been friendly with different families yourself?
 ; 
 ; MG: Me? Well I had a friend- I was pretty- I wasn’t really a big social bug. I was very interested in the Friendship Circle in recent years, I mean the last 15 years or so, and that seems to be one of my big interests. And I always enjoyed going to the Center and being around people. 
 ; 
 ; SC: So were there any specific families-?
 ; 
 ; MG: The friend- The friend actually- Like I said my mom and dad, aunt and uncle, they were together all the time. And I don’t think they looked for any outside, too much of that. So we didn’t- They didn’t socialize in- like some people do. It was pretty much private. But myself, I had a friend, Irvin Jacobson, for many years. And we were together, we went around, we went whatever it was, on vacation in different places. 0 3220 Walgo Knitting Mills: ~1946-1972 GE: Okay so now what we are going to do is talk a little bit about the business. And if I understand correctly, and you tell me, I think you said it was around 1943, right, that your dad and his brother-in-law went into the business. So do you want to just tell me whatever you know about that, around 1943. So it was your dad, Morris, and what’s his brother-in-law’s name again?
 ; 
 ; MG: Joseph- Joseph- Joe Wald.
 ; 
 ; GE: Walz. W-A-L- How do you spell his last name?
 ; 
 ; SC: D-S?
 ; 
 ; MG: W-a-l-d.
 ; 
 ; GE: Wald. W-A-L-D. Okay. And so the two of them had been already working for many years as foremen at Arcadia, and now they went into their own business.
 ; 
 ; MG: They went into their own business. 0 3310 Struggling Businesses Post-WWII MG: Walgo Knitting Mills. They went- They went on- They went to New York for business, but when they went into business, at that time... it was- it was- the picnic was over. This is what they were told when they went to New York. Forget about the old people, people that had ran the business years ago, had nothing, gotten- During the war, they were making money like- They get very wealthy, that’s it, because there was no price- You could work for almost any price you wanted.
 ; 
 ; GE: Right, the demand was so high.
 ; 
 ; MG: The demand was so high, it was- it was- it was big. But people didn’t have the machines. They were making war machines and everything else so everything stopped, other people went into the service, they just- they just didn’t have it. But after the war, it stopped almost immediately, because people started to produce and then the price was low and if you were a contractor like my father, they would go there and all, and they always said, they used the expression, “Suck on a herring.” That means this is all I can give you. 0 3441 Working as a "Contractor" in the Textile and Needle-Trade Industry GE: And when you say they were a “contractor”, tell us a little bit more what that means. 
 ; 
 ; MG: A contractor means you don’t buy the- you don’t buy- you don’t make the goods, you sell it—you do it for somebody else. You’re making- You make a- Someone will send you the yarn, instead of you buying the yarn, they will send it in—and say I need 5,000 lbs. on such and such a machine, and- or they could send in 50,000 lbs. And you made different things, you made cotton knit goods, like flat goods—t-shirts, stripes, like you’re wearing right there. And then there is also rib cloth, which is the underwear cloth, on the- on the ribbed machines, and that ran on a cable. There was- Each machine was on a belt run by a big motor and it ran on a long line of machines, old-fashioned machines. Later on there were people who went in and bought individual machines. But at that time, they ran on the old style belt machines. 0 3672 Contracting for Seco Mills GE: Do you know who their customer was, who they were a contractor for?
 ; 
 ; MG: Only too well. They had- They got connected with Seco Mills, S-E-C-O, and they were a big- These guys were two big, two salesmen, you know, and they ran a pretty good operation. But they had enough work to keep you busy. And my uncle, instead of being a little bit of a gambler and going with maybe less work and harder to find work, but could advance you a lot better, a little easier, they didn’t take that route and they stuck with the big guy, and the big guy never paid because he’s always giving- he says, “You always got work, you don’t have to worry.” You know what I mean? Keep the- Keep the machines running.
 ; 
 ; GE: Right, I see. So it was a very, very small margin you’re saying. They always kept the price low.
 ; 
 ; MG: Right, they didn’t pay- They didn’t pay enough, they squeezed you on that, because you got the work. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Right, right. There was always work, but- but-
 ; 
 ; MG: So my uncle was one of the ones- always the one who insisted, “Stay with them, you’ll always have work, you have to work.” Well okay. 0 3755 Martin's Father and Uncle—Partnership and Responsibilities GE: And with your father and your uncle, which one took care of what part of the business? Did they always work together with decisions or-?
 ; 
 ; MG: Actually, my uncle ran- he ran the office and then he ran certain machines. My dad ran Tompkins machines, which is a special machine, it’s made for baby- good for like terry cloth and soft goods like baby cloth. It’s a very fine type of machine. Not- Very, very few people in Allentown used the Tompkins machines. But they bought them and my father took care of them.
 ; 
 ; GE: So they were kind of specialized? The Tompkins, it was like a special-
 ; 
 ; MG: Well that was special—different than most people made. First of all it was a slow producer and they never wanted to pay the amount of money because it was, you know- Even though everything is relative, if it takes longer to make you got to get paid more. But if you’re a manufacturer, you can call the price a little better. You know. But it’s- Anyway, that’s contracting, and we always- we made a decent living, we were able to...
 ; 
 ; GE: And so they were in business for how long? 
 ; 
 ; MG: Oh my God. They were-
 ; 
 ; GE: They started around 1946-47, how long did they keep the business until?
 ; 
 ; MG: Maybe 35 years or so. 0 3885 Changing Addresses to Inexpensively Expand Production Capacity at Walgo MG: They borrowed money from the bank and bought two knitting machines. The mill was in operation twenty-four hours.
 ; 
 ; GE: Oh. So they were- They were around the clock?
 ; 
 ; MG: Each partner alternating twelve-hour shifts, and without making too much money, because how much could you produce? But, that’s what they did. And the machines knitted flat goods used for t-shirts, striped and plain. Offered a little more space by Mr. Lang, they purchased rib machines, used mostly for underwear.
 ; 
 ; GE: So- so they rented space by- from Mr. Lang initially?
 ; 
 ; MG: Yes, you’re right, the upholstery place. Naturally, needing more space for yarn, the basement which was partially dirt filled, Mr. Lang offered to give it- the place rent free if you dig it out. So he was good, he did them a favor, he did them a favor. So we hired a guy, he wheelbarrowed all the dirt out, then hauled it away, got rid of it. 
 ; 
 ; GE: And now they had it, rent free.
 ; 
 ; MG: They had it rent free for the yarn, because it was small and the amount they could handle- They used to tell them, used to tell the- the- the contractor- the boss- the manufacturer not to send in too much yarn. 0 4160 Employees/Unions GE: How many people worked there, about?
 ; 
 ; MG: Oh my God. Sometimes it’s been- In that place they had about 60, 65, 70 people.
 ; 
 ; GE: Okay. And that was let's say at the peak.
 ; 
 ; MG: Yeah. The last move- Well around the clock. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Right right right, that’s right.
 ; 
 ; MG: But they all- They ran twelve-hour shifts for a lot of the people—the better knitters. Because you don’t have to keep people and pay overtime for people that aren’t producing like those that are able to better- do more. You know, handle more machines. Anyway, a good knitter- They got paid not quite what Union wages were, but they got twelve hours. So when the Union came in with the idea of unionizing, naturally, that’s what their- They’d come in real early and get the workers before they got in the door—there was a lot of unrest. Because the- Those that wanted the Union were probably a lesser able to do some of the work. Anyway, they fought it off and they never had a Union. 0 4272 Martin's Role at Walgo Knitting Mills GE: Okay. And Martin, what were- what did you do in the- in their business?
 ; 
 ; MG: I was in the shipping.
 ; 
 ; GE: You were in shipping. Okay, okay.
 ; 
 ; MG: Yeah, I was in shipping, receiving and shipping, and I never had enough help. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Yeah, well I think that’s how it goes!
 ; 
 ; MG: That’s how it goes. Never had enough help. 0 4292 1972: Walgo Knitting Mills is Sold to George Krasnov MG: So the last move was at 201 East Hamilton Street, the last move, before it was sold in 1972 to George Krasnov.
 ; 
 ; GE: Okay, so it was sold in 1972. So they were in the business it sounds like about 25 years? Does that sound about right?
 ; 
 ; MG: Could be, yeah, yeah, yeah. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Because they started a little bit after WWII and went to 1972.
 ; 
 ; MG: Right. George Krasnov, a former partner of Surefit Slipcovers.
 ; 
 ; GE: Okay, so he- So, so- So George Krasnov, did he leave Surefit, or did this become part of Surefit?
 ; 
 ; MG: No there was a- There was a- The father died and then you know there’s children and children’s children, so what happened, they broke up and he was left out. And I guess there was some kind of payout, but they never spoke. There was a lot of very- In a business, that’s what happens. 0 4399 Goldstein and Wald Family Members Work for New Owner of Walgo Knitting Mills Until the Business Fails MG: My father, my dad, uncle, and myself worked for George after he bought it. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Wait a minute, did you say- Your father? Oh, yeah. You, your father, and your uncle all worked for Goerge for a while, I see. 
 ; 
 ; MG: Well that was because- When he bought it, when George bought it. Now what happened- My uncle was loafing around—you wouldn’t believe it. He was okay in the beginning but then he sort of didn’t care. Well, I said to my father, “George is not going to take this.” So what happened? He laid him off. He thought that my father would go too, but it didn’t happen that way. My father was running these Tompkins machines, and it was a good thing at the time. Anyway, my uncle stayed for two years, my dad for three, and me for five years, until he closed- And he had to close because of poor business. He called me in the office and he was crying and he said that I’d have to give it up. He says, “I’m sorry, but…” They- He had some good years. 0 4490 Martin Runs the "Matching Machine" at a Firm that Makes Suits GE: So did you retire at that time? When- when-
 ; 
 ; MG: No, I didn’t retire. Oh yeah, when he closed it. 
 ; 
 ; GE: When he closed.
 ; 
 ; MG: Yeah, but then I- Then I was- Then I went to different textile places.
 ; 
 ; GE: So you continued to do shipping?
 ; 
 ; MG: I continued . . not shipping, no, no, I did different things. I was upstairs, I helped with the spreading and different things, and- But the- the people- People were in trouble, the business wasn’t good. So finally I went to a workshop, like a training place, it was on Union Boulevard, I forgot the name of it. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Was this a- Was this a training place for people from textiles or just a training place for-
 ; 
 ; MG: I think a training place for different work. 0 4770 Relationship Between Owners and Employees of Walgo Knitting Mills GE: How did you feel the relationship was between the workers and the owners?
 ; 
 ; MG: That’s- They were- They were- I would say not bad. It was- I couldn’t say they were terrible. They often came and complained. I often heard about it. Things you know that- “This is the worst place to work.” I say, “Any place you work is the worst place.” I told- That’s what I told them. “I worked,” I said, “in other places, too.”
 ; 
 ; GE: How do you- So now- Just like you said, a lot of this has disappeared, you know, textiles, there is no more in this area.
 ; 
 ; MG: Well price-wise they were- 
 ; 
 ; GE: Right, they went to cheaper labor.
 ; 
 ; MG: Priced out. That’s what everything happened here. That’s why there is no manufacturing here. What happened with the automobile industry? They’re still doing business. 0 4855 How the Disappearance of the Textile and Needle-Trade Industries Have Impacted the Lehigh Valley and Its Communities GE: How do you think that has affected first the Jewish community, the local Jewish community, and second just the Allentown community?
 ; 
 ; MG: Well I think the Jewish community, where before, a young fella knew where he was going to go—so he went off and went to school, and then joined the business, or went right into the business. And he had a good living, because they were thriving, you know, one way or another they were doing pretty well. A lot of them were manufacturers, so they did very well—like Schneider Manufacturer. Irwin Schneider—they had a wonderful business—sewing plant, they had 100 machines, they were unionized. It didn’t matter. They were manufacturers. If you’re union, you know it’s- it’s not always- the union is not going to kill everybody.
 ; 
 ; GE: So for the Jewish community, you’re saying, there was a lot of certainty then? That- That it was something that was clear.
 ; 
 ; MG: Yeah they had a way- They had a way- A direction to go. And then later on, I guess, for Jewish people, it wasn’t the- the only way out. They went to school, they got a good education, they became doctors, they became engineers, their- Education-wise, that’s- that’s how they did it. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Right, right. Good point, right.
 ; 
 ; MG: Yeah and what happened, naturally, in the downtown where I originally said I worked Saturdays, changed, became... They opened up malls. In the downtown, every store that was downtown—Williams, Brytes [?], those were the dress shops and hat stores—became- Well, they were closed. And big stores opened up in the malls—department stores. So the little guy was out, the corner store was out, the little guy was- the supermarkets. I’m old enough to see it all. 0 5215 Why the Jewish People Were Over-Represented in the Textile and Needle-Trade Industries GE: [T]he Jews in general were somewhat over-represented in textiles? You know many when they came here worked in textiles. Why do you think that is?
 ; 
 ; MG: Well, they came over here carrying machines. 
 ; 
 ; GE: Right but why- but why- Did they come over here, did your family come over carrying machines?
 ; 
 ; MG: No, they didn’t do any of that. With these I’m talking about sewing machines. If you went into manufacturing at that time, if you wanted a job and had a machine, especially if you did it, it was different!
 ; 
 ; GE: You could do it I guess even in your little apartment or-
 ; 
 ; MG: Well- Well- You could do it even in their place. That’s right—even in their place. And I think today, believe it not, there are Syrians.
 ; 
 ; GE: That’s what I hear.
 ; 
 ; MG: You heard that? They have little spots and they’re contracting at a- They have no overhead. So they can- they can make the stuff at a- And guess what? I think the government knows about it and they won’t even bother them. They are off the street, they’re not collecting unemployment. And if they are, they get double. We had a guy who did that and the- the- the unemployment agency came in and took him right off the job.
 ; 
 ; GE: So what do you think made the textile industry appealing to the Jewish immigrants?
 ; 
 ; MG: I think it was easy, it was something you could- It was a lot of work. It was- And also, it looked like- I mean, I don’t know if I have the answer to that, but it looked like they were able to get started without too much trouble. They had the- They had the machine, they had the way to get in there. 0 5570 Goldstein Family Values SC: What did your family value most, your extended family? These are sort of filmy questions. These are thought questions.
 ; 
 ; MG: Live a clean, honest life, I think, is very very important. Not- My mother always told me, “Don’t come home with a policeman.” I said , “I’m safe once he takes me home, Mom.” She didn’t wanna see me come- come home with a policeman. That to her was… 
 ; 
 ; SC: That’s great. 0 MovingImage Martin Goldstein talks about how his father and uncle came to America with their families, initially worked in New York in a textile mill, then moved to Allentown to work at Arcadia Mills, a large knitting mill. Martin’s father and uncle were foreman at the factory. The mill operated 24 hours per day, each man was a foreman of a twelve hour shift. Then in the late 1940s, after World War II, Martin’s father and uncle started their own knitting mill named Walgo Knitting. They were contractors for Seco Mills until they sold the business in 1972. Interview with Martin Goldstein, July 16, 2013 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is July 16th, and this is an interview with Martin Goldstein, and interviewers are Susan Clemens-Bruder first, and then Gail Eisenberg, on the Garment and Textile Industries. And I might be asking you some questions that seem sort of as if I should know the answers or whatever, but for the future, that's why we want to get everything down on the- on the tape. MARTIN GOLDSTEIN: Yes, I understand. SC: First of all I'd like to have you put yourself in your own personal content. What's your full name? MG: Martin Goldstein. SC: Okay. And where and when were you born? MG: I was born in New York, in 19- in August 22nd, 1925. SC: Oh. And where in New York? What- Do you remember your address? MG: Yes, yes I do--only because my mother kept talking about it. Martin Goldstein, let's see, 555 Green Avenue, Brooklyn, New York. SC: Brooklyn. MG: That's- That's strange, I don't know how I remember that -- because she always talked about it. SC: So you lived there, what was your educational history? MG: I graduated high school. SC: Okay. Where did you go to elementary school, junior high school, and high school? MG: I went- I went to Raub Junior High School and then Allentown High School, and that's- that was the extent of my education. SC: When did you move to Allentown from Brooklyn? MG: Well let's see, I was born in [1925]--1927. SC: So your family moved. Did they- Did they move to change businesses? Did they move for another reason? To join family? MG: They moved- They moved because the- the business- they had a job- They had a job at Arcadia Knitting Mills. And they were five brothers, and they decided that is was- They had quite a business, and they decided that it would be better to build in Allentown, where labor was cheaper. So they moved- Came- They came here--I guess that's- I guess that's in... They built- They built the Arcadia Knitting Mill at 8th and Pittston St. It's an L-shaped building, which still stands today--five stories high. SC: So you went, first of all, to elementary school here? You were two when you moved? MG: Yes. SC: And- And would you repeat what elementary school you went to? MG: I went to Raub Junior High School, and then went to Allentown High School, at that time. It's Allen today, but Allentown at that time. SC: And did you have a particular interest in high school? MG: No, I just the regular- the regular general curricula- curriculum. SC: Did you do any educational work beyond high school? MG: No, nothing else. SC: And also, where have you worked from the- your very first job, whether it was a paperboy or whatever, your very first job all through your life? MG: Very first job was when--before the malls--I worked at the- the- for example hat stores. You know, the old lady hat stores? Not old lady--ladies hat stores. SC: In olden times? MG: In olden times, right. And just like a stock boy, I made--you're going to laugh--it's maybe 18-20 cents an hour, that was good at that time. SC: Do you remember how old you were when you started working there? MG: I was probably 16. SC: And after working there, when did you leave the hat store? MG: Oh from there, let me see--what did I do? I worked at like an upholstery place--Lang's Upholstery--for some time, and over there- Well there was different odd jobs, and I did different things, it's all depended. SC: Do you remember where Lang's was? Where it was located? MG: Yeah, he opened up a place at 6th and Lehigh Street. Yeah, that was- that was his place of business. SC: So after Lang's and some of the odd jobs that you did, do you remember any of the odd jobs that you did just to make money? MG: Yeah, I worked at- What was the name of that? "Allentown--" It just doesn't come to me, it doesn't come to me right away, I'm trying to get the name. Well anyway, what they did there, it was like a- It was also woodworking. They made- they made- they made- But more complete. They did I think what's called "American Houses." And over there, I did- I'm going a little blank, I don't know. SC: But it was a woodworking place? MG: Yeah, it was a woodworking place but they also had- I think they were making prefabricated homes. SC: Do you remember about what year that was? Just sort of general decade? MG: Let's see, about what- what year that was, let's see. 19- Probably-- Maybe in the late '30s, just about 1940 maybe. SC: And there- I think there were Sears houses- There are some Sears houses too in Allentown- MG: Sears? SC: Yeah, there were some prefab Sears houses in Allentown, too. MG: I don't know too much about that. SC: I don't think there's too many, but they are out in the West end of Allentown. MG: Right. SC: So any other jobs that you worked until you went into your family's business? MG: No, there were- I didn't- I didn't- I'm really not prepared on my own to tell you everything about myself. SC: That's fine, that's fine. Just, you know, if you remembered, it's fine, if not, don't worry. MG: I- We did have- I can't think, I can't think of that, I didn't prepare on that. SC: That's fine, that's fine. So can I ask you some questions about your own family background? So what do you know about your parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents, any- as far back as you know? Where they were born? MG: Well my father- my father was born in Russia and my mother in Poland. GAIL EISENBERG: And their names? MG: And their names were Morris and Sarah. I believe what he did--see, this is some of the--I believe he moved, he must have moved to Poland later on, and he was with my- He met my mother at about the age of 14. SC: So they relocated from Russia to Poland. MG: And she was- Yeah. She was working in an ice cream parlor, and they courted for about 4 years, you know. He says, "I fell in love with her because she was always laughing. I'd introduce her to somebody," he says, "and she walked away laughing. You just couldn't- I just couldn't- She was such a happy person." Actually, that followed throughout her life. She was great among all of us--to help us out. SC: Did they come to the United States together? MG: Yes, they did. They were born--I don't know how true it is--but they always said their birthday was April 20th, 1898. SC: Do you know about what year they left Poland, Russia, to come? MG: They came to this country--what do I have? Let's see. I think... Do I have it? No, that's when they were in Paris. No, that's when they were married ; this is when Libby was born and so forth. GE: Was Libby born here or there? MG: Libby was born there. GE: Okay, so it's after. MG: She was born- You got it, that's right, you're smart, you got it. She was born 1919. SC: Do you want to read that? Does that talk about your family background? MG: Yeah, I could. My parents, Morris- Morris... They courted, like I said, they courted in 1914, they were married 1918. Libby was born in 1919. Martin, I was born in 1925, and Gloria, 1931. So we're all 6 years apart. My mother, Sarah, told me that her father died when he was 28 years old. Her mother was pregnant with her at the time, so she never saw her father. So this was- So it goes on to say, "growing up without a father, mom's mother had to find work to support the family. So she sold milk, carrying a 5-gallon jug"--you can imagine, 5-gallon jug--"door to door, pouring out portions to each neighbor. My grandmother worked 'til noon, then she taught my mother how to sew. And they sewed 'til 12 o'clock at night." And my mother could use those- on those pedal machines, and she was so good that she could make almost anything. She taught her everything. She- Anybody, anything we wanted, she- we needed, she did for us. I didn't have to worry about shortening pants or whatever. SC: Was your grandmother's husband still alive or was she a widow also? And then- MG: My grandmother- Which grandmother? SC: Sarah's mother MG: Oh Sarah's mother- He was- She was- Yeah he died I think- Well I said he died. SC: At 28. MG: At 28, but she remarried, and they lived in New York for a few years. That's where they spent a lot of their time. Let's see, when did they come here? SC: In 1918, did you say? MG: No, 1919- They came here I would say about 19- 1921. SC: So it was your mother and her mother and the man that she married, another man that she married, before coming here? MG: Yeah, they came- Let me see. Okay, I got more of it. In 1921 my parents came to America. At that time you needed a sponsor to come to this country. The Morrison's, they were uncles of my father and family, and they were the sponsors for both my dad and my uncle and their families. A job at the knitting mill, working 12-hour nights was waiting for them in New York. A job, naturally, was required at that time or you couldn't come here. My mother, father, and sister, Libby came over as the boat- on the boat called the "The Lapland." Dr. Reinhart joined his four other brothers--he even gave up his practice because he was so enticed by the business. SC: Who was Dr. Reinhart? MG: Dr. Reinhart, believe it or not, he was the- One of 5 brothers who- who- who joined, like I said, joined the business now. He was, like I said, enticed by that-- they came here, they built that building at 8th and Pittston Streets. So in 1927, a large L-shaped, five stories building was built in Allentown. At present time, it's an apartment building. This was built by the Reinhart brothers from New York who came here because of cheaper labor. Let's see, what else? SC: And were the Reinhart's your dad's family? MG: No. SC: They were your mother's- That was your mother's- MG: Nobody, nobody, they were no relatives of ours. They were no relatives at all. They just got, you know, to get work, you came from the other country, you were just lucky to get any kind of work, so that's- They weren't educated. My father had just had, maybe, not any formal schooling -- or my mother. So, and that was common at that time. SC: And so after World War I, it was tighter, it was really harder to come here from Europe than it had been before World War I. MG: Well after World War I. Yes, yes. SC: Yeah, after World War I. So that makes so much sense, that you really- that they had to have sponsors, etc., and have a job. MG: The Reinharts asked my father and uncle to join them in the new building in Allentown. The Arcadia Knitting Mill became the second largest knitting mill in the US. The knitting mill in Pittston, NJ was the largest, so... It didn't mean anything to them because they were workers, and that was before the Union. As you might expect, wages were low at the time. My father and uncle, both foreman, made 10 cents an hour more than the other workers. There were like I said no unions, so they paid what they wanted. But what he had- The good thing was that foremen were not laid off, so I never knew there was a- a Depression. You could understand to me there was always food on the table. I also knew because I heard them discuss the budget at the end of the week how we are going to make things go. But they always managed. And one thing he said we're going to do was have a vacation. We went away to the mountains one year and the shore the next and it was always- There was always, always good times. SC: So your dad was a foreman? MG: Yeah, he was a foreman and my uncle was, too. SC: Both of them. And were they foreman because of working so well in New York and then being invited down? MG: Right, that's why they came, yeah, right. SC: Did they ever go beyond foreman in that business? MG: No. You mean personally? SC: Personally, the two of them. MG: Yeah. They, that's- that's- Let me see, do I have--? They were unionized, Arcadia was unionized during the- during the war years. My dad and uncle received unemployment compensation after the business closed. SC: When did it close? MG: It closed, let me see, 1940- About 1940. For a couple of years they had a Victory Garden. You know? And it was time to get a job and they decided to go into the business. SC: So during the war, they had a Victory Garden, during World War II? MG: During the war, they had a Victory Garden. Before that the other people, you know, when you were laid off you had nothing--you had to go for, I forget, what was it called at the time? There was a name for that. SC: Well, it would be--not unemployment--insurance, at that time. MG: No, it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be. It'd be some kind of aid you'd get. A lot of people were ashamed of this, they figured this was wrong, yet there were no jobs. SC: And so 1940 was right before World War II started. You know, at '40- MG: In 1941 the war started. SC: Did the business start up again? Did they actually- They went into business for themselves, right after the Victory Garden. Was that in the '40s? MG: Yeah, they called it- They went into the business in 19- I would say '43, was it? SC: During the war. MG: They called the business, "Walgo Knitting." Wald and Goldstein. GE: I'm sorry, say the name again. MG: W-A-L-G-O. Walgo. GE: Walgo. SC: So, when--just back up, because we'll go into the business- more of the business questions a little bit later, but to go back, do you know any other names in your family? Any names, your mother's maiden name, grandparents on both sides? MG: Well let's see, my father, Pop Morris, let's see, he had- He was one of five children, all came to America, five children. There was Jeanette, May, Francis, and Al. SC: So that was your mother's mother's family? MG: I know their Jewish names, too. SC: Oh good. MG: I don't know if you need that. SC: Sure, sure. GE: This is your father, Morris. These are his siblings? MG: Yeah, right. Morris's name was Moshe, and Jeanette was Shandyl. May was Malkeh. M-A-L-K-E-H. And Francis was Frumeh, and Al was Avraham. It was Abraham, but at that time- GE: That's the Yiddish name. MG: At that time he tried not to- not to- He was in the gold business of some type. A gold portion studio, he made gold inlays and things like that. SC: Did he do that in Poland? MG: My father's brother? Yeah. SC: Yeah, in Poland. MG: No, he came to this country and right away, the uncles that helped bring him over here said they- the best thing to do is to go to school, and you'll go to like a dental laboratory. So that was- that was pretty good. That was one of the few people that got a good education. SC: So all of their last names originally was Goldstein. MG: That's right. SC: Okay. How about your mother's maiden name? MG: My mother's maiden name was Surowitz. SC: Can you spell that? MG: S-U-R-O-W-I-T-Z. S-U-R-O-W-I-T-Z. And she- she was one of one, two, three-- I think she was one of six, but her youngest- Her- One of her younger- One of her younger- Her brother died in Europe, and that was a terrible tragedy because he was a young man. So I would say, let's see, she was one of six. GE: And what were those names? MG: Sarah, Paulie, Aaron, Lazar, and Chaya Freidel. That was all we knew her by so I don't know- Sarah's name was Sorah, Sorah Faigel, my mother's. She had a middle name. She always complained, "And why do you- Why I have a middle name? Because when I came on the boat they thought two people were coming on. "So they gave her trouble. She never gave us middle names. She says, "Because of that they had trouble getting her on the boat." Well anyway- SC: And- and- Am I right about the fact that Sarah's mother remarried? Did she remarry? I'm a little confused about that. MG: Yes, Sarah's mother remarried. SC: She did. Was- Was that a different name then Surowitz? MG: Yeah, yeah- Wait a minute. Her name was Surowitz. SC: Was that her second married name, maybe? MG: No, yeah, her- Her name was Surowitz. I never thought of it that way, the second name, but it had to be because she was from the other generation. SC: And- And did her mother have any other- other children by her second husband? You don't know- Do you know his name? MG: No, she had no other children, that was it. SC: No other children and that was it, yeah. So do you know anything about where- Any more about where they lived and worked or where they worked? Any of the family members, uncles, cousins, grandparents, do you know any other jobs that they held? And it's only- You sometimes see patterns, and that's why I'm asking that. MG: Any jobs that- SC: Other members of the family had. One was in dental work and gold, and- Were there any others? MG: Yeah, my mother's brother, he was always- He worked in a hat business. He didn't have his own business, though, he was- They made hats. But he had a business sense and a mind. And he went into- He opened- He bought a grocery store--you know they had the old fashioned corner stores--and he'd build it up and then sell it. He did it a number of times and he made quite a bit of money. Once you build them up and have a good clientele, then things go your way and you made- made out well. SC: And any others that you remember? Any other family members and what they- MG: Yeah, see-- Here's what the problem was, a brother and a sister along with children and grandchildren died in the Holocaust. That's from my mother's side. That was a tragedy. My mother never- She took it very hard. She- She- I can't talk about it. When she looked at the- She used to watch television, and she'd see something, you know, there was always- My dad and I says, "Listen, we want to see it. We're gonna wanna, we want to see it. We want to know what happened." So I never- Whenever I had a chance to look at it I- I did. Thirteen people, and she knew about that, and was- it's heart-wrenching. And the one brother, she said to him before, she says, "I want you to come here, Lazar." He said, "I have a letter business," and he says, "I'm making out well." He didn't know what Hitler had planned. See, in the beginning it wasn't- it wasn't believable. Who could do some of the things he said he would do, just wouldn't- It wouldn't be imaginable. But he did. SC: So in as far as when the people who did come to Allentown--your mother, and your dad's family, some of the brothers that came to Allentown--where did they live in Allentown? MG: You mean my parents? SC: Yeah, your parents- MG: They moved to where Cossie- Remember Cossie Snyder's? GE: Oh, on 7th Street? MG: Yeah, on 7th Street. Right next door, right around there, they built- There was an apartment, they had an apartment. And I- That's when they came to Allentown, I was two years old, so Libby was let's see eight by then. And then they moved to 7th and St. John's, right near the Good Shepherd Home, in an apartment, a corner home. We often pass it. So they started- I think I started first grade there, or something like that, after a few years, and then Jefferson School, we went to over in the East Side ; and then we moved over to Fulton Street, the 300 block, on Fulton Street, 309 S. Fulton. We lived there maybe 35 years and then ended up- And then someone bought our house, so we had to move out. And those were bad years, that- that was around the Depression years, things like that. SC: So you rented then? MG: So we, yeah, so then we- But then we were forced to- My father said we're not going to just move out, we're going to go to a- move into the corner house at Fulton- at Fulton and Fairview. And we lived there, altogether, between the two houses, another 15 years, until we lived maybe 48-50 years over there. We were about- I would say one of the last Jewish people that moved out of the old neighborhood. SC: So you were in the old neighborhood. MG: We were in the old- Where it was little Israel. Where the Jews lived there on 15th, 16th, 17th Street, 18th Street. SC: This is tape 2 and could you start with that, who actually didn't come and who was lost in the Holocaust? MG: My parents--my mother and dad came to-came to America, and her- and her sister and her brother--her sister, Paulie and her brother Aaron, Aharon in Jewish. SC: But the Lazar- MG: And the Lazar and Chaia Freidel and their- their children and grandchildren, whoever, we know- we know- we know a total of about 13, because there were so many years, and they married, and then they- But they were all gone, there was nobody- After the war, there were- there were nobody that were alive, because we would have brought them over. But there was nobody there. There was nobody left--so they- really was bad. SC: So just to talk a little bit more about- You lived down in the old Jewish neighborhood and- for a long time, and were one of the last families to leave. Then you moved to the west- You moved to the west? Could you tell me again what was the address of when you moved west, to west Allentown, further west? MG: What year they moved there, let's see-- I- You mean- moved- moved- SC: Out of the old Jewish neighborhood. MG: Well, we lived there almost all our lives. I'm only here- I'm only here, let's see, 20-- I'm here 26 years. SC: So you stayed down in that area? MG: So I was there, I was there go back 26 years. GE: Until the 1980s? MG: Yeah, 19- 1980s, let me see, I can't figure it out right off hand. SC: Well, just generally, that's fine. So what was the Jewish community like when you were young? And how has it changed over time? MG: Well, first of all, there were- Most of the Jewish people knew each other pretty well. You knew all the Jewish people. It was, the Temple was small -- we had a small Temple at 12th and Walnut St. And around 1950 they decided to build that temple, a big temple. SC: Just for the record, what Temple was that? MG: Temple Beth El. SC: Yes. So you went to the old Temple Beth El? MG: Yes, from a place that was like a twin house, for maybe a hundred whatever it was, it could hold a hundred people or so, to a, well, a very large temple. SC: Do you know the address of the original Temple? MG: I would say 12th and Walnut Street, the corner of- SC: 12th and Walnut Street, at the corner. GE: So not 12th and Chew--12th and Walnut? MG: 12th and Walnut, definitely 12th and Walnut. SC: And then- MG: Right down the street was the Funeral Home--Bachman, Bachman Funeral Home. At the time, there were no other Jewish funeral people, you know. So that's where- He took care of the burials. SC: Do you have any memories of when you were a child in that neighborhood? Any really bright memories? MG: Well, I know we played ball in the street. We played touch football in the street, there was a car here and a parked car there--a car everywhere--but not- not to the extent that you couldn't play. You just, when a car passed by, it wasn't completely a morgue, but it was a lot different than it is today. SC: Did your family have a car? MG: In 1940, my father bought a 1937 Chrysler. SC: And do- MG: That was a big day. He used to walk to work. All the way down to Arcadia Knitting Mill, down 15th Street, to Lawrence Street, Lawrence Street all the way up to where Mack is. And that's where his work was. Walked to work and walked home, it took him 20-25 minutes. Snow, rain, and sleet--he was never too sick to go to work. SC: Do you have any other memories of your father? MG: Yeah, my father-- Well, he was a hard worker and took care of the family the best he could. Like I said, he always wanted to go on vacation, made sure of that. And we often went to New York on weekends for our day- our Sunday excursion. Believe it or not, there was- there were specials. You went on the train the- the- the Lehigh Valley Railroad. One dollar, back and forth to New York. One dollar to go to New York, back and forth. But they filled the train and then your windows were open and they were steam engines. And I had to wear a suit, so I wore long sleeves, white sleeves, and had the window open and it would get black from the soot, from the- But we had great times there because we visited my grandmother. And when she came to visit, my mother's mother says- my mom says, "You come live with us." And just between us, I don't think that my grandmother- my mother really wanted my grandmother to live with us. But she was- there was such- she was such a good person and my grandmother was so nice that- But my grandmother says, "No, an old person doesn't belong with the young- the young people." She was a smart woman, really sharp. So that and she did, she- we went- They had the Bialystoker Home she- GE: Bialystoker. Is that where they were from, Bialystoker? MG: And there was a home in New York named the Bialystoker Home. And we came to visit my grandmother there, you know. She said, "That's the place for me." And she was always happy. So we'd go there, we took her out, they'd go to a- go to a- a cafeteria--well that was something. She had those long stockings and she put a piece of hard bread in those stockings, and my grandmother said, "What are you doing?" She pulled it out, she said, "I brought bread along." She says, "You're going to a--!" And it was a Kosher, in New York. A Kosher, let's say, what kind of a buffet? Not a buffet. SC: Like a Horn and Hardart? MG: Yeah, but it was Kosher. She wouldn't go anywhere else. SC: Do you think she put the bread in her stocking because of being in Europe, you know, for such a long time? MG: Yeah, probably, probably. She looked at her, she didn't even smile, I remember that. I says, "You know," I says, "what- what- what is she doing?" But you know what, they had no money. They- There was no such thing as Saturday night, you go to a movie or something like that. There was no- To her, if they- If the family had enough to eat and everybody was together--my- my- my mother said that the father said there was times when they didn't have enough food, that they would take- Maybe once a week, they would have meat, and cut it up. Portion-wise it really- it wasn't a lot. Because everything- They had no money and everything was expensive. SC: Do you- Did you- Were you involved in the Jewish community when you were a youth? Were you- Did you- MG: Well, I had a- I was Bar Mitzvahed, but I think people were more religious that time, you know? But we always, my dad always, my mother always observed the holidays. And so- What we did was- Passover, she had a- we had a Seder [a ritual feast associated with Jewish holiday of Passover]. And my aunt and uncle--my mother and father, aunt and uncle were pretty much tied together all the time, they always went together. GE: That was your father's brother? MG: My mom- my father's sister. My father's sister, Jeanette- the Walds, Jeannette Wald and Joe Wald, Joseph Wald. SC: Were- Were there any youth activities at- that were connected with the Jewish community at that time? When you were a teenager did you have social activities? Or were you working too hard at that point? MG: You know I'm trying to think about what activities- what activities we had... We went to the- Well the Jewish Community Center, which is at 6th and Chew. We- We often went there. I know that I was a member there. And we'd walk from Fulton Street to all the way down to 6th and Chew to go, take gym. It was $20.00 a year for my membership. SC: So did you play sports? MG: Yeah but I played, you know, intramural basketball and things like that, yeah. And there was swimming at the old Jewish Community Center. Trying to think of what other- Well pretty much- At the Center, or at the Temple, we went- more so than today on a Saturday morning, and- and a Friday night--more so a Saturday. SC: Did you date people in the community? MG: Me? SC: Yes. MG: I didn't do a lot of dating, no. I'm a- I'm a bachelor. I wasn't much of a ladies man. SC: So, anything else you did in your youth for a social life or any other activities? MG: Sounds like we didn't do anything. SC: No, that's fine -- life was slower then. We're all crazy now! MG: That's what it sounds like. SC: No, not at all! Did- Did you- MG: I belonged to B'nai B'rith at that time. And at that time B'nai B'rith was very active. It was nice going to the center or some place, after they moved to the new place--and the old. And that I would say, in general, the Jewish community were, were a lot closer than they are today. Because so many people, an influx of people from all over, maybe they're close in different ways among themselves, but- When they built that new- the new Temple, that was a good thing. SC: The newest Temple? MG: Yeah, the new one that I mentioned before. That- That was- It helped unite a lot of people. GE: The one at 17th and Hamilton? MG: The one at 17th and Hamilton, yeah. SC: But not the one that's- Newest one, yeah. MG: Not this one, right. That was good for years, yeah. Except that they needed more, more space for schooling and things like that, and a newer neighborhood. SC: Did you become involved, a little bit later on, in any other organizations as you got older? Any Jewish organizations, any community organizations? MG: I guess the- Trying to think of- SC: This- And continuing, so Al Goldstein changed his name to "Gold." Was it for business for the fact that he was in- in- MG: No, the idea was at that time Jewish people were very shy about using their name, because it was- It just wasn't a good thing, you know? There was Anti-Semitism and things like that. SC: Did you experience any Anti-Semitism in Allentown at all? MG: Not me personally. I- I was- was always thankful of that. It always sort of scared me. You went around with the idea, always- It something that was in the back of your mind. But the people I was with, I never encountered any, any of that trouble. SC: Were you friends with some of the- MG: My one sister did, when we were- we lived in the old house on Fulton Street, the original house because we lived in two different homes on that street. But she experienced something that- She says one of her neighbors, a young girl, she was maybe 10 years, said, "Take your dirty Jewish paper and take it in the house." So my- She went in crying or something like that, and my mother went and talked to her mother, and her mother didn't want to know anything about it. And I was surprised because, otherwise, I thought she was a nice person. But, that to me, wasn't very sensitive, it wasn't- wasn't nice. So, there was- There was- There were people around me that I saw- You know- But we mostly played ball together and it wasn't too bad. SC: And were the people that had some Anti-Semitism, were they Pennsylvania Dutch--the "dominant" Pennsylvania Dutch--or were they Eastern European? MG: I- It just was anybody that wasn't Jewish, you just didn't know. With the kids, first of all you thought it was going on in the house--you know. "Ethnic favoritism" or something like that. SC: Were you friendly with some of the older families in- in Allentown? Like the Samuels' family--they- they- I think they lived around Hamilton and probably about 17th or 18th. Samuels, you don't remember? MG: No, I don't know, I don't know, I can't think of the Samuels, not off hand? What was his first name? SC: Well there's one--let me think, let me think now-- Abram Samuels? No? MG: No. Senderowitz? SC: Sin-derowitz? MG: Senderowitz. SC: Senderowitz, okay. MG: Yeah. Beryl, everyone said, that's a good catch. Beryl Senderwitz, she lived in a home on Hamilton Street, that big mansion home, that's what I called them, right down from the Temple. Beautiful home. Every once in a while, she made parties. That's the one thing we did have, the Jewish girls often had- Who was it, let me see, I can't think of some of these names. SC: Well if you think of them at some point, let us know, give us a call and let us know. That would be fine. And- Or just you know or we could even come back, if you think of some more, we could come back another time. So how- How do you think- You mentioned a little bit how the Jewish community has changed over time, being more cohesive in the early years, and then maybe even more tight now but in a different way. But has it changed in any other way? MG: I think in general that people are freer today than before so I don't think you're defensive like you had to be in those days. I belong to the Mora Club, Men of Retirement Age, and I may be the only Jewish person, probably the only Jewish person who ever worked there- that ever joined. But it's a nice organization, men and any- I feel- I feel comfortable around the Christian people as well as- and I think that's pretty much the norm today. It was different then. See it's- It's not acceptable today. SC: So you were saying that things have definitely changed, that you worry about relationships outside the Jewish community a little bit. So what- what families were you friendly with in the Jewish community? Like the Mishkins? MG: Families I- Like I said, my mother and dad, and my aunt and uncle were pretty much- They went out together. A good time was a Saturday night movie, you know, that's what you did. Every week. It was fifty cents--it was probably cheaper in the early years, it was less than that. And the way- What they did- What we did at weekends, now that I think of it, went on picnics. My mother would pack up a cooler, you know, with all the sandwiches and all the- My- My mother, my father, my sisters, and their husbands, in the early years, and some of them, before they had children, and sometimes after they had children. They were all small. We would go to Cedar Beach or- Not Cedar Beach, Lehigh Parkway a lot. Yeah. And picniced. We'd get a table early and that- that- that was it. That's a good time. SC: Did- As you got older, and- and in the decades since the '80s, have you been friendly with different families yourself? MG: Me? Well I had a friend- I was pretty- I wasn't really a big social bug. I was very interested in the Friendship Circle in recent years, I mean the last 15 years or so, and that seems to be one of my big interests. And I always enjoyed going to the Center and being around people. SC: So were there any specific families-? MG: The friend- The friend actually- Like I said my mom and dad, aunt and uncle, they were together all the time. And I don't think they looked for any outside, too much of that. So we didn't- They didn't socialize in- like some people do. It was pretty much private. But myself, I had a friend, Irvin Jacobson, for many years. And we were together, we went around, we went whatever it was, on vacation in different places. SC: Or as they say nowadays, "you hung with him." MG: I hung with him, that's right! Yeah, you hung out. SC: So I'm going to stop now and I'm going to switch over to Gail. GE: Okay so now what we are going to do is talk a little bit about the business. And if I understand correctly, and you tell me, I think you said it was around 1943, right, that your dad and his brother-in-law went into the business. So do you want to just tell me whatever you know about that, around 1943. So it was your dad, Morris, and what's his brother-in-law's name again? MG: Joseph- Joseph- Joe Wald. GE: Walz. W-A-L- How do you spell his last name? SC: D-S? MG: W-a-l-d. GE: Wald. W-A-L-D. Okay. And so the two of them had been already working for many years as foremen at Arcadia, and now they went into their own business. MG: They went into their own business. I might have some notes on that. GE: Sure, you can take your time. MG: Where are we at? The business? GE: Yeah, so it would be about 1943 that they started the business. And what was the name? MG: Walgo. GE: Walgo. Okay. And what were they making? MG: You mean-? GE: They were a knitting mill. MG: Walgo Knitting Mills. They went- They went on- They went to New York for business, but when they went into business, at that time... it was- it was- the picnic was over. This is what they were told when they went to New York. Forget about the old people, people that had ran the business years ago, had nothing, gotten- During the war, they were making money like- They get very wealthy, that's it, because there was no price- You could work for almost any price you wanted. GE: Right, the demand was so high. MG: The demand was so high, it was- it was- it was big. But people didn't have the machines. They were making war machines and everything else so everything stopped, other people went into the service, they just- they just didn't have it. But after the war, it stopped almost immediately, because people started to produce and then the price was low and if you were a contractor like my father, they would go there and all, and they always said, they used the expression, "Suck on a herring." That means this is all I can give you. The price is going to be very minimal and you're just lucky to make a living, but as a contractor- GE: This was now like 1943? This was still during the war or after the war? MG: This is after the war. GE: Okay, so after the war. MG: After the war, because during the war, you couldn't- they couldn't do anything about it. GE: Right, so did the business start during the war or after the war? MG: No, it started after the war. GE: Okay, so they went into business not like 1943 but more like 1947 or something like that? MG: Maybe- During the- No, during the war, yeah, because- No they didn't go in, they must have gone in 1947 or so. GE: Or '46, you know, maybe- maybe shortly after the war. And when you say they were a "contractor", tell us a little bit more what that means. MG: A contractor means you don't buy the- you don't buy- you don't make the goods, you sell it--you do it for somebody else. You're making- You make a- Someone will send you the yarn, instead of you buying the yarn, they will send it in--and say I need 5,000 lbs. on such and such a machine, and- or they could send in 50,000 lbs. And you made different things, you made cotton knit goods, like flat goods--t-shirts, stripes, like you're wearing right there. And then there is also rib cloth, which is the underwear cloth, on the- on the ribbed machines, and that ran on a cable. There was- Each machine was on a belt run by a big motor and it ran on a long line of machines, old-fashioned machines. Later on there were people who went in and bought individual machines. But at that time, they ran on the old style belt machines. GE: Okay, okay, and so they made a lot of this type of- a lot of t-shirts. MG: They made a lot of t-shirts, right. They didn't make it, they made the cloth for t-shirts. They made the cloth for t-shirts. GE: Okay, so they didn't make the final good, they were just cloth makers. MG: After the cloth was made, they were- they got instructions of where to ship it. Maybe, you know, go back to a warehouse for them or you sent it to an individual customer. GE: So they really made the fabric that went- MG: They made the fabric. It came off the machines and that was the end of it. Then it went to a dye house, we sent it to a dye house, if it wasn't colored, originally colored. But if it was unfinished goods, it had to be sent to where it was processed in a dye house. GE: So you were the step before the dye house? MG: Right--the step before the dye house. GE: You- You made the material. And what was it that you got from the company- What was your supplier, what were your raw materials? In other words, you made- MG: Or what was- what was- What we made- made out of? We made out of cotton knit goods. Cotton, polyester, that came in, then there was a certain amount of silk--well that was usually mixed with something else. It wasn't pure silk, like you couldn't- it was too fine, the machines couldn't run that. GE: Basically, it was some kind of cotton blend, polyester, silk blend that you got--the raw materials. And then you made it into- MG: We got it on spools. GE: On spools, okay. Okay. And then you made that into fabric that would then be used to make the clothes, to go to the dye factory. MG: And from there to a particular customer where they spread the goods. GE: And made the outfit. MG: The conscious [?] of what you're saying, it's not- you know, don't worry about it. GE: Yeah, frankly I don't. MG: Nothing to worry about, nothing. GE: All right, so let's see, your uncle and father started the business around- after the war, and they were contractors. Do you know who their customer was, who they were a contractor for? MG: Only too well. They had- They got connected with Seco Mills, S-E-C-O, and they were a big- These guys were two big, two salesmen, you know, and they ran a pretty good operation. But they had enough work to keep you busy. And my uncle, instead of being a little bit of a gambler and going with maybe less work and harder to find work, but could advance you a lot better, a little easier, they didn't take that route and they stuck with the big guy, and the big guy never paid because he's always giving- he says, "You always got work, you don't have to worry." You know what I mean? Keep the- Keep the machines running. GE: Right, I see. So it was a very, very small margin you're saying. They always kept the price low. MG: Right, they didn't pay- They didn't pay enough, they squeezed you on that, because you got the work. GE: Right, right. There was always work, but- but- MG: So my uncle was one of the ones- always the one who insisted, "Stay with them, you'll always have work, you have to work." Well okay. GE: And with your father and your uncle, which one took care of what part of the business? Did they always work together with decisions or-? MG: Actually, my uncle ran- he ran the office and then he ran certain machines. My dad ran Tompkins machines, which is a special machine, it's made for baby- good for like terry cloth and soft goods like baby cloth. It's a very fine type of machine. Not- Very, very few people in Allentown used the Tompkins machines. But they bought them and my father took care of them. GE: So they were kind of specialized? The Tompkins, it was like a special- MG: Well that was special--different than most people made. First of all it was a slow producer and they never wanted to pay the amount of money because it was, you know- Even though everything is relative, if it takes longer to make you got to get paid more. But if you're a manufacturer, you can call the price a little better. You know. But it's- Anyway, that's contracting, and we always- we made a decent living, we were able to... GE: And so they were in business for how long? MG: Oh my God. They were- GE: They started around 1946-47, how long did they keep the business until? MG: Maybe 35 years or so. GE: Oh okay, so until about 1980? Around. Does that sound right? MG: Yeah, yeah. GE: So until maybe around 1980, something like that. And the whole time, that was their one customer, Seco? MG: Yeah. GE: They didn't- They were always supplying for Seco? MG: -- In his upholstering business. They borrowed money from the bank and bought two knitting machines. The mill was in operation twenty-four hours. GE: Oh. So they were- They were around the clock? MG: Each partner alternating twelve-hour shifts, and without making too much money, because how much could you produce? But, that's what they did. And the machines knitted flat goods used for t-shirts, striped and plain. Offered a little more space by Mr. Lang, they purchased rib machines, used mostly for underwear. GE: So- so they rented space by- from Mr. Lang initially? MG: Yes, you're right, the upholstery place. Naturally, needing more space for yarn, the basement which was partially dirt filled, Mr. Lang offered to give it- the place rent free if you dig it out. So he was good, he did them a favor, he did them a favor. So we hired a guy, he wheelbarrowed all the dirt out, then hauled it away, got rid of it. GE: And now they had it, rent free. MG: They had it rent free for the yarn, because it was small and the amount they could handle- They used to tell them, used to tell the- the- the contractor- the boss- the manufacturer not to send in too much yarn. GE: Right. Because they could only handle so much. MG: They could only handle so much. And that's not the way it works, because they don't care. You hold- You store it, and when we're ready to use it, you'll- That type of thing. So, but that- They couldn't do it because we were pretty good with them so they figured well, we'll- we'll find a way to manage this, and they helped- worked along with us. Until they got into- What was the next thing they did? They were offered a little more space by Mr. Lang, they purchased a rib machine. Naturally needing space for yarn, the basement which was partially dirt filled... The- It was necessary to get larger to meet the customer's needs. At that time they were knitting striped goods, used- using polyester and cotton and ny- and nylon. I think rather than silk, it was nylon. GE: Because that's a lot more durable and it had now been invented. So did they buy their own place at some point? Like how long did they stay by Mr.- MG: They never, never bought their own place. GE: Okay, so they just- they rented space. MG: Moving here's- Here's where that started. The moving process began as they moved from Mr. Lang's building to 6th and Lehigh- at 6th and Lehigh, to a large building at 14th and Gordon. They- They occupied the first floor with- with- with seventy to eighty machines. GE: Oh, seventy to eighty machines? Wow. So they built it really up a lot. MG: Yeah. The building was sold after working there five to six years. See, there was no way to stay small, otherwise the customer- the contractor- the manufacturer was not going to give you work. You have to grow, you have to grow. They don't allow it. Bethlehem Furniture of Allentown moved to Redline, New Jersey and we rented the building for seven to eight years. Do you remember Bethlehem Furniture? GE: I- I don't. Where is that located? Bethlehem Furniture? MG: I don't- GE: About? MG: I- I know at Front Street. GE: Okay. Front Street, and is that in Bethlehem or in Allentown? MG: No, no in Allentown. Front Street up at the- Somewhere maybe between Gordon and Liberty, it's hard to say exactly where, but somewhere in that area there. For seven to eight years. The next move was a two story building at 4th and Auburn. We rented the first floor, it was a little larger, and we were able to house a few more machines and store yarn. GE: How many people worked there, about? MG: Oh my God. Sometimes it's been- In that place they had about 60, 65, 70 people. GE: Okay. And that was let's say at the peak. MG: Yeah. The last move- Well around the clock. GE: Right right right, that's right. MG: But they all- They ran twelve-hour shifts for a lot of the people--the better knitters. Because you don't have to keep people and pay overtime for people that aren't producing like those that are able to better- do more. You know, handle more machines. Anyway, a good knitter- They got paid not quite what Union wages were, but they got twelve hours. So when the Union came in with the idea of unionizing, naturally, that's what their- They'd come in real early and get the workers before they got in the door--there was a lot of unrest. Because the- Those that wanted the Union were probably a lesser able to do some of the work. Anyway, they fought it off and they never had a Union. GE: Oh. So it was never a unionized- It was never a Union Shop. MG: Never a Union Shop, 'cause the guys that worked the twelve hours won out. And I mean my dad and my uncle told them, "Listen, if you're Union, you're going to be paid more, but forget the twelve hours, that's over." So they liked the idea, "Money now--to hell with the future, money now." GE: Okay, so the employees voted to stay- to keep out the Union Shop. MG: Right, and it stayed that way. GE: Okay. And Martin, what were- what did you do in the- in their business? MG: I was in the shipping. GE: You were in shipping. Okay, okay. MG: Yeah, I was in shipping, receiving and shipping, and I never had enough help. GE: Yeah, well I think that's how it goes! MG: That's how it goes. Never had enough help. So the last move was at 201 East Hamilton Street, the last move, before it was sold in 1972 to George Krasnov. GE: Okay, so it was sold in 1972. So they were in the business it sounds like about 25 years? Does that sound about right? MG: Could be, yeah, yeah, yeah. GE: Because they started a little bit after WWII and went to 1972. MG: Right. George Krasnov, a former partner of Surefit Slipcovers. GE: Okay, so he- So, so- So George Krasnov, did he leave Surefit, or did this become part of Surefit? MG: No there was a- There was a- The father died and then you know there's children and children's children, so what happened, they broke up and he was left out. And I guess there was some kind of payout, but they never spoke. There was a lot of very- In a business, that's what happens. SC: Now was Murray Platt with Surefit? GE: I- You're right, I think Murray Platt was a contractor. SC: He was a contractor. MG: Murray Platt, I just nothing- I just know Murray, but I don't- I know there was a million people, I knew everybody I talked to was in textile. SC: And was Kraznov K-R-A-Z-N-O-V? MG: K-R-A-Z-N-O-V is correct. Yeah, Kraznov, exactly. [correct spelling is K-R-A-S-N-O-V] GE: Was there anyone else working in the business? So it was your father, your uncle, and you--was anybody else working in that business from your family? MG: No. GE: Just- Just you, and your father, and your uncle. MG: My father, my dad, uncle, and myself worked for George after he bought it. GE: Wait a minute, did you say- Your father? Oh, yeah. You, your father, and your uncle all worked for Goerge for a while, I see. MG: Well that was because- When he bought it, when George bought it. Now what happened- My uncle was loafing around--you wouldn't believe it. He was okay in the beginning but then he sort of didn't care. Well, I said to my father, "George is not going to take this." So what happened? He laid him off. He thought that my father would go too, but it didn't happen that way. My father was running these Tompkins machines, and it was a good thing at the time. Anyway, my uncle stayed for two years, my dad for three, and me for five years, until he closed- And he had to close because of poor business. He called me in the office and he was crying and he said that I'd have to give it up. He says, "I'm sorry, but--" They- He had some good years. When he bought the business, I remember Marilyn- Do you know Marilyn? GE: I don't, no, I don't. MG: Well Marilyn Krasnov, his wife, said, "I never saw a business that has no debt." The cleanest business in the world, and they got it- bought it for a reasonable price. GE: So did you retire at that time? When- when- MG: No, I didn't retire. Oh yeah, when he closed it. GE: When he closed. MG: Yeah, but then I- Then I was- Then I went to different textile places. GE: So you continued to do shipping? MG: I continued . . not shipping, no, no, I did different things. I was upstairs, I helped with the spreading and different things, and- But the- the people- People were in trouble, the business wasn't good. So finally I went to a workshop, like a training place, it was on Union Boulevard, I forgot the name of it. GE: Was this a- Was this a training place for people from textiles or just a training place for- MG: I think a training place for different work. But they would have- Sometimes lead you to- GE: Different kinds of jobs and- MG: Yeah. They- They- They heard what I did and they sent me to a- a suit company. What's the name of it again? GE: Oh, like where they make suits? MG: Where they made suits. Not made suits, well, yeah, they did actually. They- They- They didn't actually finish the suit, they made the goods for it. But it was their business. GE: Okay, okay. So they were manufacturers, is that what you mean by saying "their business"? MG: What the hell was the name of that place? SC: So were they contractors? MG: No, no, they were manufacturers. SC: They were manufacturers. MG: They were manufacturers. And there was a union and I worked there ten years. GE: Oh okay. And was that located here? MG: I had a training program, that's what led me to it. GE: And what did you do at that firm? What did you do for them? MG: I ran a machine, it was like a- a matching machine. I was the only one that ran that machine. GE: It matches what? When you say a matching machine- MG: Well you know the stripes are even. So you had a- And I worked there for ten years and it was pretty nice, I- I enjoyed it. It was easier than any of the other things. I was concentrated on one thing and there was a union, and I ended up with a tiny pension. Once a month, I get $62.47. GE: Right, right. Where- Where was that located? MG: Textile Amalgamated- That was located in Industrial Park. Industrial Park. GE: Are they still in business? MG: No, everybody's out. They were in business a pretty long- They went down South I think in 1992. And I've heard that they- Well, that's a long time ago, and they closed like everybody else. 'Cause they had- What was the name of them? SC: Amalgamated something? MG: No, Amalgamated is the- is the union. SC: The union. Amalgamated- MG: And that's why- SC: Amalgamated of- GE: Amalgamated Workers, Textile Workers? SC: Clothing and Textile Workers? I can look that up. MG: Yeah. It's a- It's the- There's that other union, too. SC: International Ladies Garment Workers? MG: She's a real sewer! GE: She's a real historian! MG: International Ladies Garment Workers is the union? Yeah, sure, International Ladies Garment Workers is the Union. SC: Look for the union label. MG: Look for the union label! GE: Exactly. Do you have any favorite stories about when- your dad and uncle, about the business? Like any stories- MG: No, only when you leave I'll have a story. GE: Well you'll be able to tell me if you do. MG: A famous story . . . GE: But any favorite story or any interesting story either about something that took place at the business or something with- something with the manufacturer that they were dealing with, something that you observed while you were working, anything that you wanted to- Well how did you feel- Let's say, you worked- you worked there with the other workers. How did you feel the relationship was between the workers and the owners? MG: That's- They were- They were- I would say not bad. It was- I couldn't say they were terrible. They often came and complained. I often heard about it. Things you know that- "This is the worst place to work." I say, "Any place you work is the worst place." I told- That's what I told them. "I worked," I said, "in other places, too." GE: How do you- So now- Just like you said, a lot of this has disappeared, you know, textiles, there is no more in this area. MG: Well price-wise they were- GE: Right, they went to cheaper labor. MG: Priced out. That's what everything happened here. That's why there is no manufacturing here. What happened with the automobile industry? They're still doing business. GE: Yeah, yeah. So far we are still holding our own, but it's certainly not the way we did it- We didn't dominate the way we dominated 50 years ago. MG: But there's still Ford, Chrysler, and General Motors. GE: Yes, yes, yes. So I was just wondering from your impressions, the fact that this industry really no longer exists here, what- How do you think that has affected first the Jewish community, the local Jewish community, and second just the Allentown community? MG: Well I think the Jewish community, where before, a young fella knew where he was going to go--so he went off and went to school, and then joined the business, or went right into the business. And he had a good living, because they were thriving, you know, one way or another they were doing pretty well. A lot of them were manufacturers, so they did very well--like Schneider Manufacturer. Irwin Schneider--they had a wonderful business--sewing plant, they had 100 machines, they were unionized. It didn't matter. They were manufacturers. If you're union, you know it's- it's not always- the union is not going to kill everybody. GE: So for the Jewish community, you're saying, there was a lot of certainty then? That- That it was something that was clear. MG: Yeah they had a way- They had a way- A direction to go. And then later on, I guess, for Jewish people, it wasn't the- the only way out. They went to school, they got a good education, they became doctors, they became engineers, their- Education-wise, that's- that's how they did it. GE: Right, right. Good point, right. MG: Yeah and what happened, naturally, in the downtown where I originally said I worked Saturdays, changed, became... They opened up malls. In the downtown, every store that was downtown--Williams, Brytes [?], those were the dress shops and hat stores--became- Well, they were closed. And big stores opened up in the malls--department stores. So the little guy was out, the corner store was out, the little guy was- the supermarkets. I'm old enough to see it all. GE: And so for the Allentown community, certainly all of that changed. How about for the workers? In other words, there were all these jobs and now those types of jobs don't exist. Do you think that matters, are there just- For the workers? Were they- MG: No, because- Well there are service jobs now, that's not- Certainly it doesn't matter. Because it was no problem getting a job years ago in the Lehigh Valley. Because the Lehigh Valley and surrounding area was all textiles. It was like a domino effect, I'll never forget, when they closed. GE: Right, and what do you mean "it was a domino effect?" MG: Well one- One closed after the other. One closed after the other and that was the end of it. The knitting mills, the sewing plants, some of them went down South, there was- Now, for example, Allison Manufacturing--they were big. We got work from them. They went down South and they- they- they were good for a while down there. Finally they sold out--they probably made millions so it didn't matter. But they were one of the big guys around here. GE: Who owned that? MG: Schneider. GE: Oh, is that Schneider. MG: Yeah. GE: You know, we did interview [them]. MG: Some of these things must be the same as- what I'm telling you, you heard from them. GE: But that's good, it's good for us to hear it a few times because it all confirms. SC: Creates truth. So do- Which Schneider was that? Allison Mills? MG: Warton? W-A-R-T-- T-O-N? Warton. Yeah, I think W-A-R-T-O-N. [correct spelling is W-H-A-R-T-O-N] GE: Are they still in town, the family? I don't know them. Like are they still local? MG: I don't know. I just- Every time I answer a question I wish my other sister was here. Like Gloria, she's- GE: You know, I should have asked. It would have been a good idea for-for Gloria or Libby to do it with you. MG: Well they- The only thing is they didn't have- GE: Correct, direct experience. MG: Not direct experience alone. They don't have the interest to bother- to bother to remember everything. They don't care that much. I was- It's more of my interest than theirs. But I still think Gloria will read some of this and say, "No, this and this and," you know. Well she- I mean, they could remember, but... GE: Why do you think- Why do you think the Jews- the Jews in general were somewhat over-represented in textiles? You know many when they came here worked in textiles. Why do you think that is? MG: Well, they came over here carrying machines. GE: Right but why- but why- Did they come over here, did your family come over carrying machines? MG: No, they didn't do any of that. With these I'm talking about sewing machines. If you went into manufacturing at that time, if you wanted a job and had a machine, especially if you did it, it was different! GE: You could do it I guess even in your little apartment or- MG: Well- Well- You could do it even in their place. That's right--even in their place. And I think today, believe it not, there are Syrians. GE: That's what I hear. MG: You heard that? They have little spots and they're contracting at a- They have no overhead. So they can- they can make the stuff at a- And guess what? I think the government knows about it and they won't even bother them. They are off the street, they're not collecting unemployment. And if they are, they get double. We had a guy who did that and the- the- the unemployment agency came in and took him right off the job. GE: So what do you think made the textile industry appealing to the Jewish immigrants? MG: I think it was easy, it was something you could- It was a lot of work. It was- And also, it looked like- I mean, I don't know if I have the answer to that, but it looked like they were able to get started without too much trouble. They had the- They had the machine, they had the way to get in there. GE: We call that a lot of times "low barriers." MG: Low barriers! That's right, that's right. GE: Low barriers to enter. MG: That's right. GE: Okay, terrific, terrific. SC: I have a couple of follow up questions. MG: Oh I knew it! I knew it! That's okay, I'm not in a rush, I'm not rushing you. I'm retired. SC: That's- That was one of my questions. When did you retire? How old were you? Or what year? MG: Didn't I say in here? GE: That's okay. Well you know what- I think you said '87 when you retired? About '87? MG: There you go! SC: Okay, I don't have that down here. GE: It that about right? You were 62? MG: This thing don't work. I'll tell you- GE: Well the reason I said '87, tell me if this is right, you said that you left in '77 and then you said you worked about another 10 years. SC: Another ten years. MG: Well I left in 19- Let me see. I moved, I moved in '87 to this house. We moved it- GE: But the shop that bought you from Krasnov, that happened in '72, right? SC: Yeah, I wrote down '72. GE: And he kept your uncle on for two years, your father for three years, and you for five. SC: Five years. GE: So that's now '77. SC: [19]77, and then you worked at other places for a while. GE: You said about ten years. MG: Yeah, I worked for ten years. SC: Okay, so that is '87. MG: There you go! Something came out! I like that girl, she's mathematically- She got me cornered. GE: And- And am I right, Uncle Martin, that you were about 62 then when you retired? MG: Yeah. SC: What was the address of Lang? The Lang Company, where you rented? GE: Where you got started. MG: 6th and- 6th- 6th and Lehigh. SC: And Lehigh. Okay. That was the one that was 6th and Lehigh, I wasn't quite clear about that. And then 4th and- Was it 4th and Auburn that the one business you worked- Bethlehem Furniture at that- MG: No, that's 201 East Hamilton Street, Bethlehem Furniture. SC: Okay. Well what was it on Auburn? "Twelve-hour shift"--one of yours? GE: Maybe- Maybe that was one of the ones that you rented? SC: Yeah, one of the ones that you rented? Was it 4th and Auburn, I thought it- I thought you said. GE: I remember you being in Auburn. SC: Yeah, well, we can get that from the tape. MG: Wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. You'd better repeat these things. Did Schneider tell you about when they came in and broke- they- broke up all of his machines? GE: I don't think so. SC: He mentioned it, he mentioned it. GE: Irwin? SC: Yeah. GE: Salistky did. MG: No, no, not- not Salitsky. GE: Schnieder did? SC: Yeah. MG: Salistky's dead. GE: I know, I know. But we interviewed him before. We interviewed him and- MG: I'm going to live on. GE: Good. SC: We'll be back. MG: I'm going to live on. GE: His family has very good longevity. His mom and dad were both like in their upper 90's. MG: To tell you the truth, to tell you the truth, do you know what I did? I had a stock I sold twice, not remembering the first time. GE: Oh. MG: So I'm telling you, I'm worried. GE: No, you're okay. MG: "You're okay." She's telling me, I'm telling you I'm not okay! SC: No, you are. Well I have a couple- A couple of other questions. This is going to stop, I'll just write the answers to it. Maybe we'll get one in. What did your family value most, your extended family? These are sort of filmy questions. These are thought questions. MG: Live a clean, honest life, I think, is very very important. Not- My mother always told me, "Don't come home with a policeman." I said , "I'm safe once he takes me home, Mom." She didn't wanna see me come- come home with a policeman. That to her was-- SC: That's great. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
01:33:32
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Martin Goldstein, July 16, 2013
Description
An account of the resource
Martin Goldstein talks about how his father and uncle came to America with their families, initially worked in New York in a textile mill, then moved to Allentown to work at Arcadia Mills, a large knitting mill. Martin’s father and uncle were foreman at the factory. The mill operated 24 hours per day, each man was a foreman of a twelve hour shift. Then in the late 1940s, after World War II, Martin’s father and uncle started their own knitting mill named Walgo Knitting. They were contractors for Seco Mills until they sold the business in 1972.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
LVTNT-03
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013-07-16
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.