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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
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Interviewer
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mark Fogelman
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https://trexlerworks.muhlenberg.edu/ohms-viewer/render.php?cachefile=LVTNT-21.xml
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5.4 October 12, 2013 Mark Fogelman, October 12, 2013 LVTNT-21 1:04:24 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Mark Fogelman Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 FogelmanMark_20131012 1.0:|23(3)|48(11)|79(7)|100(13)|129(2)|150(11)|181(3)|204(8)|227(8)|248(12)|275(10)|302(2)|329(7)|348(17)|367(5)|390(14)|421(4)|446(15)|469(16)|490(4)|511(6)|534(7)|557(10)|582(2)|607(3)|634(6)|661(9)|686(2)|711(8)|736(3)|759(7)|780(14)|785(18)|806(7)|831(8)|856(9)|881(15)|904(6)|929(6)|954(14)|977(11)|1002(8)|1031(8)|1054(6)|1075(6)|1090(13)|1115(11)|1134(15)|1155(17)|1174(9)|1197(2)|1214(13)|1233(13)|1250(13)|1277(15)|1310(11)|1335(9)|1354(4)|1379(6)|1394(16)|1415(12)|1430(10)|1445(15)|1464(13)|1473(10) 0 https://youtu.be/eCjQQ5rEc58 YouTube video 0 Mark's Background SC: Today is October 12, 2013, and our interview is, let’s just leave it at that for now. This is tape one. This might seem somewhat redundant because we have interviewed your mom and your aunt. It’s good to get different viewpoints, then they sort of melt together and you have confirmation with certain issues. If you could tell me your full name and your birth date to start with. This is going to be more question and answer right at the beginning.
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 ; MF: Mark Charles Fogelman and my birthday is January 18, 1960.
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 ; SC: Where were you born and where have you lived?
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 ; MF: I was born here in Allentown, Pennsylvania. 0 216 Education SC: Can you talk about your education - going back to the beginning?
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 ; MF: First I went to Nursery School at the JCC. I went to the Jewish Day School from Kindergarten to sixth grade, then went on to Trexler Middle School and then William Allen High School. I went to Penn State, didn’t really know what I wanted to do, but as a hobby with friends, we used to make movies in the back yard with a Super 8 camera – make little stories, we had fun with that. I got on the radio station at Penn State – just doing the news. I really enjoyed that whole thing. I thought maybe I’d go into TV and film, but they only had two courses at the time. They really had no facilities back in ’78. I started looking around – I looked at Boston, I looked at different areas. Then I looked at Temple – they really had the best program for me where you could right away get into the program – start making movies and video shows. Other colleges wanted another year of math and science, so I transferred to Temple – and I wanted a big city, too - rather than being in the middle of nowhere. 
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 ; SC: What was your major at Penn State?
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 ; MF: Liberal Arts – a little bit of everything. 0 499 Mark's Entry into the Business SC: Did you take over the business and your dad retired?
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 ; MF: No, I started out at the bottom. When I came in, it was tough, because I had a pretty good position with Merv Griffin and now I’m back to basically my “summer job” of weighing bundles of scrap in a dirty warehouse and unloading trucks of 100 lbs. rolls of fabric and into the basement. It was good – a good experience, it reminded me of what it takes. And, it was a much bigger business, too, then when I was a kid. It was spread out among more buildings. When I started out, we had our two original buildings but shortly after we bought two more buildings in town – just to handle the workload. 0 567 Origins of the Family Business SC: We’ve gone through all of that - the family history - could you talk a little bit about your family history? We got it from your mom and aunt, but it’s good to have independent confirmation and maybe you have some other memories.
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 ; MF: They probably have more than I do. My grandfather started it. He was a tailor first, and I don’t know how he grew it and made it bigger. I know one funny story – once he decided to become more of a manufacturer rather than a tailor, he would go into New York for whatever client (I don’t know who it was) and in those days, they would cut the work for you – you know how the work is made – spread out on a table and you cut it into “lots” maybe there is a 1,000 pieces in a lot – maybe shirts or pants and different parts that you are going to have to sew together. He would go to his client and they would say, “okay, take lot number 7” so he would grab lot number 7 and half of number 8 and stick it in his truck. Then they would call him and say, “Do you know you took half of number 8?” He’d say, “Oh, I’m sorry, come and get the other half.” It was a way to get more work for yourself. Everybody has little tricks you have to try to pull. I always liked that story. 0 726 More About the Business SC: Okay, maybe we should move on to business.
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 ; GE: You already gave us a little history, your mom and aunts gave us a little history. They went with Alfred Dunner – and this is what year?
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 ; MF: Alfred Dunner was always a client – a very small client – that my grandmother on my dad’s side actually met and that’s how that started - how we got hooked up as a client. I don’t know if you heard that story. I’m surprised my mom didn’t tell you that.
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 ; GE: No, no.
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 ; MF: My grandmother was at a party in New Jersey.
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 ; GE: And, that’s your paternal grandmother?
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 ; MF: Yes - my dad’s mother. All of the Aresty family that now owns Alfred Dunner lives in New Jersey. 0 1365 Overseas Competition GE: So after 9-11-2001 – they began using other factories.
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 ; MF: Right – overseas, not locally. They were testing China and Mexico and at the time, their quality wasn’t as good as ours, but pretty quickly, they became even better than us - real fast. And they would come to us and say, “Look what they’re doing there.” Because our machines are old and they are getting new machines and they have all these wheels that make nice little creases, so I had to buy new wheels – little things. It didn’t take much to fix, but we were always chasing that a little bit.
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 ; GE: People were making fabric, as they were going overseas, was that making it difficult for you to get fabric at a competitive rate? 
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 ; MF: Well, they bought the fabric for us. It really made it difficult for them. 0 1476 Local Producers GE: But, you didn’t make the tops?
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 ; MF: Other people made the tops. They would ask us who could make things. I know the Barson’s…I don’t know if you know the Barson Family. “Barsew” - my friend, Randy Barson - his brother was running the factory – his mother is still alive down in Florida.
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 ; GE: And this is also a local family?
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 ; MF: In Lehighton.
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 ; SC: How do you spell that?
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 ; MF: B-A-R-S-O-N and it was called Barsew. 0 1800 Union Information MF: Oh yes, they were easy, and that’s what the worker’s liked. Don’t forget they are piece rate union workers. The easier it can be to make them, the better. It got to the point where the workers would complain that, “Oh, I got larger sizes than you.” Because large sizes are more to sew – by a few more inches and more to handle and actually we did sometimes pay more, a little more, on the larger sizes. We would have to keep books on each size each person got – it got ridiculous, but we would do it because the Union would say, “you’re giving her more large sizes.” It never failed, when you looked it up – they actually had less large sizes than the person next to them. 0 1874 Relationship with Workers GE: Share with us a little bit the relationship – how large was your management group – who were the workers? What were the relationships like? Was there any tension?
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 ; MF: Like anything - really– there is always a few bad apples. Everyone else was great, and there are always trouble makers. There are some people who enjoy coming to work to make trouble and complain. I don’t understand it, I never will – so that’s what you had. Everyone was happy and content and some were exceptional. At the peak we had about 40-50 non-union workers. That would be staff, mechanics and floor people and the rest - about 380 union people. In the end we had about 200 union people and about 25-30 non-union people. 0 1936 Last Years of the Business GE: How were those last 7 or 8 years - morale-wise- when everything was on the decline?
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 ; MF: When it was on the decline, I knew right away I had to get government work – right away. There was a law at the time - it was called the Berry Amendment – which was a law for the military, they have to make it in the United States. I managed, through meeting people and getting the word out – we got a small order as a subcontractor to make the Army combat pants – the old style, the camouflage pants from an outfit out in Connecticut. We were doing really well with that, and he just stopped paying us, so we stopped shipping. We were making them, but we held on because he wasn’t paying. Finally he folded, or something happened. We had a lot of pants – like 200,000 pants that we never got paid for. 0 2693 How Has the Lehigh Valley Been Affected by the Decline of the Textile and Needle-Trade Industry GE: Just a couple of questions. How do you think this area here has been affected? This was a very thriving textile area and now there’s really none.
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 ; MF: I don’t think the area really notices it because other things take its place. My biggest concern with the whole country is that we don’t make things here anymore. That’s a big danger. We build casinos – so what is that? That’s money spiraling down the toilet. That’s not new money coming in from another country or other people. That’s our own money going into different pockets. We don’t make anything anymore. We are all about the service industry. 0 2857 Economic Colony SC: Do you think we are becoming an economic colony of other countries in some ways?
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 ; MF: We are, but I think there’s nothing wrong with that. The whole world is getting smaller – everything is going to the cheapest country. Even China now – because I spoke to the President of Alfred Dunner – maybe last year and said, “How are things going?” He said , “guess what – China and Central America are too expensive now – we are in Bangladesh and Cambodia now.” Where do you go next - to the moon? Eventually you run out of countries. The good news is that it may be more level – as long as countries are doing things to make it more level then it’s a function of are our oil prices so high that it makes no sense – then it’s like little things that you are deciding about. 0 3017 Jewish Community GE: And in terms of the local community, other things took its place and like you said, you think it’s unfortunate that we have less manufacturing here. How about in terms of the Jewish community? Forty/fifty years ago there was this thriving community that was often owners of these different factories and much of that has gone away. What do you think the impact has been on the Jewish community here?
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 ; MF: It must have impacted it in some ways. I don’t know what replaced that profession, but you had that group of families that not only had a good business or struggled with their business, but they gave back to the community a lot. Maybe you lose some of that. Being able to fundraise to build a new JCC or a new Temple might be a lot harder because you might not have the families – that there are some families that their wealth was so great that they passed down to the generations, and they are still giving to the community. 0 3311 Diversity of Workers GE: How about your work force? Mostly women?
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 ; MF: Mostly women.
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 ; GE: What ethnicity were they?
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 ; MF: Mostly Pennsylvania Dutch. Probably more than any other factory, we had Pennsylvania Dutch women from the Northampton area. When I moved over by the Airport, I made sure it was close enough so that they could all make it. Then all the new people were coming from other countries. We actually found people through the Catholic Charities Group. They would find people from all over the world, so we had people from all walks of life. 0 3515 Mark Fogelman's Values and Creative Inspirations SC: Actually three final questions. What did your family value most in life and what did you value? These are my film questions.
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 ; MF: To have family all around and have your health – that your family is all doing well.
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 ; GE: Would you say that’s both your family’s values as well as your own?
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 ; MF: I would hope so, yes. They may think differently.
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 ; SC: And how were they connected to the wider community? 0 3600 Candidate Obama Comes to Tama Manufacturing GE: Now this is 2008.
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 ; MF: 2008, so he was just running for President.
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 ; SC: Oh Wow, can you put this up? We can scan that.
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 ; MF: If you google Obama visits Tama Manufacturing, you’ll have a lot of pictures. I have a bunch I can send you because there was a whole bus of press there – Time Magazine, CNN. I was on Wolf Blitzer – the Wall – there was a picture of me, Obama and one of my workers.
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 ; GE: Tell us about it.
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 ; MF: What happened was – the Union lady called me on Sunday. She said, “Do you mind if we bring Obama in on Tuesday- which was April 1 - for a tour?” 0 MovingImage Mark Fogelman talks about how he returned to the family business after spending close to ten years working in the Television business in California, notably as a production manager with Merv Griffin Productions. Around 1990, Tama Manufacturing began exclusively sewing pants for the manufacturer, Alfred Dunner. Fortunately, purchases of the Alfred Dunner brand grew rapidly during this time period. At its peak, Tama Manufacturing employed close to 400 people and used twelve subcontractors to meet Alfred Dunner’s needs. Alfred Dunner continued their relationship with Tama Manufacturing until 2009. Interview with Mark Fogelman, October 12, 2013 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is October 12, 2013, and our interview is, let's just leave it at that for now. This is tape one. This might seem somewhat redundant because we have interviewed your mom and your aunt. It's good to get different viewpoints, then they sort of melt together and you have confirmation with certain issues. If you could tell me your full name and your birth date to start with. This is going to be more question and answer right at the beginning. MARK FOGELMAN: Mark Charles Fogelman and my birthday is January 18, 1960. SC: Where were you born and where have you lived? MF: I was born here in Allentown, Pennsylvania. SC: What address? MF: 2434 Livingston Street, that's where I lived most of the time. I went to college, first at Penn State and then transferred to Temple. I studied television -- worked in television locally for Service Electric Cable, Channel 69 -- I was a cameraman. Then I moved to Los Angeles in 1983 and quickly got a job with Merv Griffin Productions, and I was there for seven years -- until 1990. I was production manager for the game shows and in development of new game shows. SC: And how about after that? Did you work any other place before you went into the garment industry? MF: When I was in high school, I wanted to get my pilot's license, so I worked at Bamberger's - which became Macy's, then I worked at Hess's. Then for a while I worked at both -- selling shoes at Bamberger's and men's sportswear (on the first floor) at Hess's. SC: As far as Hess's was concerned, what did you think about Hess's? This is self-interest -- I teach consumerism. MF: I thought it was great! What happened was, I was working at Bamberger's and my best friend at the time was Steve Greenberg, and his father was President of Hess's. He heard I was working at Bamberger's - selling shoes, which was actually his first job -- selling shoes. He said, "You can't work at Bamberger's -- you have to work at Hess's." I went in and, of course, I got hired. For a little while, I worked at both because it just worked out that I could work in the morning at Bamberger's and at Hess's in the afternoon. After a month, I just went to Hess's. When they opened up Plymouth Meeting Mall -- they opened up a store there -- and I was going to Temple, so it was easy for me to go work at that store. I enjoyed working there. SC: Did you take it to the end? Working there? MF: No, why I stopped was -- I was commuting for a while in the summer -- I was living in Allentown, commuting to Plymouth Meeting and one night coming back from the turnpike, I fell asleep driving. I went up a hill and rolled down the hill, landed upside down and totaled my car -- luckily I wasn't hurt. I just couldn't do the drive anymore. In fact, the store manager came to my house because I was the number one guy opening up new credit cards. You got a dollar for every new credit card you opened up -- nobody had one down there -- it was like a gold mine. He came to my house with $200.00 worth of "Lucky Bucks" (you could spend in the store) and he asked me if I would come back to work and I said I can't . It was just too much. That's when I stopped working at Hess's. SC: Can you talk about your education - going back to the beginning? MF: First I went to Nursery School at the JCC. I went to the Jewish Day School from Kindergarten to sixth grade, then went on to Trexler Middle School and then William Allen High School. I went to Penn State, didn't really know what I wanted to do, but as a hobby with friends, we used to make movies in the back yard with a Super 8 camera -- make little stories, we had fun with that. I got on the radio station at Penn State -- just doing the news. I really enjoyed that whole thing. I thought maybe I'd go into TV and film, but they only had two courses at the time. They really had no facilities back in '78. I started looking around -- I looked at Boston, I looked at different areas. Then I looked at Temple -- they really had the best program for me where you could right away get into the program -- start making movies and video shows. Other colleges wanted another year of math and science, so I transferred to Temple -- and I wanted a big city, too - rather than being in the middle of nowhere. SC: What was your major at Penn State? MF: Liberal Arts -- a little bit of everything. SC: That's wonderful -- we always think. After you went out to the west coast and then came back here. Can you talk a little bit about how you became involved in the textile business -- in one of the last textile businesses? MF: Growing up, there would be occasional summers when I'd help out at the factory in the summer -- doing odd jobs, usually the dirtiest jobs, and I hated it. Even when I lived in California, I would have nightmares that I was working in the factory. I would wake up -- Oh My God! It was like taking the drive to the factory, I'd wake up - Thank God I'm in California. I told you the story. I got married and had a baby and my wife at the time needed to do a residency so it worked out perfectly that she could get into Lehigh Valley Hospital. She could have got into USC, but it was all like gunshot wounds and carrying blood and it wasn't really educational she thought -- then she went to Lehigh Valley. I thought I'll work in television in New York -- an hour and a half, two hour drive. I had a job all lined up, and I went in for the interview and I just couldn't do it -- because the drive was terrible - got stuck in the tunnel, got hit by a cab. For a couple months, I didn't do anything . . . thought what should I do? Then I thought I really should get into our family business -- it was growing every year at this time. It had been growing 10-20% every year -- just getting bigger and bigger, so I thought I'd just do that. GAIL EISENBERG: What time was this? MF: 1990. It was really growing -- I don't know if my mom told you the story -- my dad was actually going to retire -- did she tell you that whole thing? SC: Go ahead, tell us again. It's good to have it from both viewpoints. MF: '82-'83 -- the factory was not really doing that well at all. It couldn't really support two families, so my dad thought he would retire and become a travel agent, because he actually enjoyed that. He actually retired, had a going-away party. He had an office already picked out in Northampton -- nearby. He was going to work in someone's office, but he never signed any final papers that he was not part of the business. A couple weeks later, my uncle died of a heart attack at age 43. So, my dad had to come back into the business. Shortly thereafter, Alfred Dunner asked if - I think Alfred Dunner and Liz Clairborne were two big clients- both clients wanted them to be exclusive. But it still wasn't a ton of work. So they thought well, Alfred Dunner is easier to make -- there was not too much science behind it. You couldn't tell if you were making money or losing money on which garment -- they weren't too engineered at that point. They went with Alfred Dunner and that was a good move because Liz Clairborne, two years later, took everything overseas and Alfred Dunner stuck by us until 2009. And it kept growing by 10-20% every year. With the economy and what people were buying, for whatever, it kept growing and growing. SC: Did you take over the business and your dad retired? MF: No, I started out at the bottom. When I came in, it was tough, because I had a pretty good position with Merv Griffin and now I'm back to basically my "summer job" of weighing bundles of scrap in a dirty warehouse and unloading trucks of 100 lbs. rolls of fabric and into the basement. It was good -- a good experience, it reminded me of what it takes. And, it was a much bigger business, too, then when I was a kid. It was spread out among more buildings. When I started out, we had our two original buildings but shortly after we bought two more buildings in town -- just to handle the workload. We had trucks going between five different buildings, plus we had subcontractors. At the peak, we had twelve subcontractors. We were up to 385 of our own people, but it really took 1200 people to do the work that we had. So twelve different factories all over the area, some in western Pennsylvania, some in NYC -- all over the place. SC: We've gone through all of that - the family history - could you talk a little bit about your family history? We got it from your mom and aunt, but it's good to have independent confirmation and maybe you have some other memories. MF: They probably have more than I do. My grandfather started it. He was a tailor first, and I don't know how he grew it and made it bigger. I know one funny story -- once he decided to become more of a manufacturer rather than a tailor, he would go into New York for whatever client (I don't know who it was) and in those days, they would cut the work for you -- you know how the work is made -- spread out on a table and you cut it into "lots" maybe there is a 1,000 pieces in a lot -- maybe shirts or pants and different parts that you are going to have to sew together. He would go to his client and they would say, "okay, take lot number 7" so he would grab lot number 7 and half of number 8 and stick it in his truck. Then they would call him and say, "Do you know you took half of number 8?" He'd say, "Oh, I'm sorry, come and get the other half." It was a way to get more work for yourself. Everybody has little tricks you have to try to pull. I always liked that story. SC: I hadn't heard that one. MF: Yes, that was a good one! Everybody has little things that you do to get more work. So he started it, then my dad married my mom, and I think he was doing roofing or selling siding like Tin Men -- you know the movie Tin Men? That was what he was doing, he hated it, so he started working at the factory. Years later my uncle married my aunt, and then he got involved in the business and the two of them were partners, and my grandfather was involved. Probably in the '60's my grandfather was becoming less and less involved. Even as a kid, I don't remember him being there all the time. Once the two sons knew what they were doing, he kind of backed off. He even came in probably once a week or every other week -- not when I was working there because he had passed away right before. In the summers when I was a kid -- he would come in just to press his pants and probably to look around. He'd come in and say hello to everybody. SC: Any other anecdotes that you remember before we get into the nuts and bolts of the business history? MF: Not that I can think of. SC: Okay, maybe we should move on to business. GE: You already gave us a little history, your mom and aunts gave us a little history. They went with Alfred Dunner -- and this is what year? MF: Alfred Dunner was always a client -- a very small client -- that my grandmother on my dad's side actually met and that's how that started - how we got hooked up as a client. I don't know if you heard that story. I'm surprised my mom didn't tell you that. GE: No, no. MF: My grandmother was at a party in New Jersey. GE: And, that's your paternal grandmother? MF: Yes - my dad's mother. All of the Aresty family that now owns Alfred Dunner lives in New Jersey. SC: Would you spell the name? MF: A-R-E-S-T-Y. The story there was that there was a real person named Afred Dunner -- a designer and he had a partner. I don't remember the name, but I want to say it was like Wexler -- something like that. Alfred Dunner was the designer and Wexler was more like the salesperson connected to (I think) it was Macy's. You need to have a buyer before you make anything. You have to have an "in" at the store -- even today. The two of them were partners and within a year or two, Alfred Dunner was in a car accident and killed. So, the Wexler brought in Joe Aresty, who was a buyer from Macy's -- pretty high up, but he was a buyer. The two of them thought they'll try to make this go and a year or two later, this Wexler was in a car accident and died. So now it's Aresty, and he brought in his brothers. Joe was always in charge of sales. The one brother was in charge of distribution to make sure things got delivered and the other brother in charge of production. Joe was the oldest brother, he is the only one still alive today. One actually got killed in a car accident -- but lived to be eighty something and the other brother, who we dealt with the most in production -- he was in production, he had cancer, but I think he was like eighty when it got him. The story that I heard is that when they were struggling and couldn't pay all their bills -- and couldn't pay us -- we carried them. We said, "Don't worry about it." The three brothers, they always remembered that we helped them get started. They were very loyal and even when the smarter move would have been to go overseas twenty years earlier, they said, "No, we're sticking with you guys." In fact, in 1996, we were in five different buildings in Northampton, and they had recently been in three buildings and consolidated into one giant warehouse. They found that they saved a lot of money -- efficiencies and all that stuff. They insisted that we do the same thing -- even though it didn't make sense on our end. But, that's what they wanted and that's what we had to do. We went into one big building and I said, "Instead of doing that, why don't we open up a factory in the Dominican Republic or Mexico?" He said, "No you like living in Allentown, we like living in New Jersey -- open it up in Allentown." So pretty much they stuck with us until he died (I can't believe I can't remember his name), then the next generation, that was my age --they had no attachment. They pretty much waited until he died, then they pulled the rug. GE: And that happened in 2009? MF: Yes. GE: So you started with them -- what year was it? MF: Probably in the '60s as a small company. Then in '83 we were really dedicated to just them. GE: Right, they became your exclusive. MF: Which was a risky move, but it worked out. GE: From 1983 to 2009 and this was a growing business. MF: Growing until 9-11. At 9-11 - BOOM - it started going down. GE: Oh, interesting. SC: Do you remember the addresses of the building in Northampton and in Allentown? MF: The main one in Northampton was 1798 Main Street and there were some other buildings before -- smaller, but we eventually ended up at 1798 Main Street. Then we also had a few buildings on Center Street -- a former IGA supermarket, which people in Northampton know, and that was 2006 Center Street. GE: Does your family still own any of these buildings? MF: Yes. Do you know Northampton at all? GE: I know the Roxy. MF: Right behind the Roxy those are all ours. And, our factory is still there -- it's vacant -- we sold it to a guy- he was going to make apartments -- he hasn't done anything with it yet. Tanczos Beer is there and right next door is R& ; S Printers (it was known as at the time) - but now it's Julia Harhart, the Representative, is there and Dr. Ofrichter -- you might know -- he's a tenant in there, and Tenzio's Warehouse [?] -- they do air brakes and fix your trucks. Then 2048 Center -- was like a little house -- that was our pattern making place -- over the years it was a steak and sandwich shop and many other things over the years. Those three buildings, I turned into commercial real estate. They're all fully rented. SC: That would be interesting for the history to take pictures of it. MF: Before and after - I might have that somewhere. I have to look. I might even have the "before" -- what it looked like -- as the supermarket and how we used it - then how we fixed it up. I really made the walls taller -- with a clock tower -- like a little strip center. GE: If you have any of that - that would be great! MF: I'll make a list of things. GE: I think you were most recently sharing with us the story of Alfred Dunner. You were their sole manufacturer. Is that correct? MF: Yes, from '83. It started way back - my father's grandmother was at a party in Dover, New Jersey and happened to talk to Joe Aresty or this Wexler at the time. You talk and say, "What do you do?" "Oh, I'm in the garment business." And she said, "Well, my son has a factory." So they tried him out and that's what started the whole thing. GE: Your understanding is that whenever they ran into difficulties in the 60's and 70's -- your family stayed as their supplier. MF: Yes. In the early times, if they couldn't pay on time. We just kept doing their work and extending the credit -- and they always remembered that. GE: So in 1983 they started the relationship with your family as being the sole supplier, and it continued until 2009 even at times when you said it didn't always make a lot of sense - and I think we have that. So tell us, with Alfred Dunner at that time, you entered the business around 1990. So tell us what the growth was like -- what was happening in terms of the kind of product they were selling, and what the growth was like of their product, and you as a producer of their product. MF: At the time we were in one building -- actually we had two buildings -- one right behind the other and the one building would make about 6,000 pants per week, and the other building, in the back, was making about 2,000 pants per week. So we were at 8,000 pants per week between the two buildings. Maybe we could squeeze out 10,000 per week, but we kept growing and growing. At the point where we needed subcontractors to do more and more. Then the number really became about 30,000-35,000 per week -- before you knew it - it got up to about 140,000 pants per week -- is how many we had to make. GE: Was that at the peak? MF: Yes at the peak, then at Christmas time it was even worse! That's another story. That's the normal peak - then it would pick up between Thanksgiving and Christmas. We would be really swamped. We'd bring on people only for a short time. The peak was probably around the year 2000. When 9-11 hit, if you remember, the first thing they said was that the next place terrorists were going to hit was the malls. Remember they were putting barricades in front of all the doors at the malls. People stopped shopping -- dramatically. It made people (everybody in that world) rethink how they do their business. They were already really motivated then to do things overseas. Plus fabric mills, which we depended on, with regulations and wages and OSHA -- they were looking to do more and more overseas as well and constantly calling on our customers and saying, "We're building a new plant in Mexico. Why don't you have your pants made there? We'll make the same fabric there." They would test these things, they would do little tests. So we're seeing our numbers drop each year -- it was going down and down. GE: So after 9-11-2001 -- they began using other factories. MF: Right -- overseas, not locally. They were testing China and Mexico and at the time, their quality wasn't as good as ours, but pretty quickly, they became even better than us - real fast. And they would come to us and say, "Look what they're doing there." Because our machines are old and they are getting new machines and they have all these wheels that make nice little creases, so I had to buy new wheels -- little things. It didn't take much to fix, but we were always chasing that a little bit. GE: People were making fabric, as they were going overseas, was that making it difficult for you to get fabric at a competitive rate? MF: Well, they bought the fabric for us. It really made it difficult for them. They were being constantly told, "Hey, we could do this much cheaper for you in Mexico, Central America or China. We have plants there now." But, they were being loyal to us. They could have been able to save 30% or more. But at the time, as long as they were making money, I think they were happy. GE: Now, did you only make pants? MF: Yes. Occasionally we made -- like a one-piece - that was kind of like a long skirt. GE: Like a jumper? MF: Kind of like a long button down skirt. But mostly pants. GE: But, you didn't make the tops? MF: Other people made the tops. They would ask us who could make things. I know the Barson's--I don't know if you know the Barson Family. "Barsew" - my friend, Randy Barson - his brother was running the factory -- his mother is still alive down in Florida. GE: And this is also a local family? MF: In Lehighton. SC: How do you spell that? MF: B-A-R-S-O-N and it was called Barsew. They made some tops. Another one was Scotty's. Scotty's Fashion -- did you ever hear of them? GE: No. MF: They are not Jewish, but we introduced them because they could make the tops, and they were making coats -- like the sports coats for Russ Togs, which was another big name. They were hurting for business and our Vice President at the time started out as a secretary at Scotty's. She knew them so we connected them. They would work directly for Alfred Dunner (without going through us) to make the tops directly, but they were a sub-contractor to us for the pants. Even though we did them this huge favor, and they were making huge amounts of money, there was a time when they tried to go around us on the pants. They actually went to Alfred Dunner and said, "Here's what Tama's paying us for the pants -- what are you paying them?" and it was a big "tadoo." It was an interesting story -- I don't know if it fits in. SC: It does, absolutely. MF: It was 1994 or 95 when it was snowing every Wednesday. GE: I think I remember that! MF: The snow was higher than my car in the driveway. Because of that, factories closed. We had to close ours up on those days. A lot of the ladies had kids in school so they're not coming in, and why make them risk their lives for this. So we were closed and other factories were closed. What we had to do was add more factories. It actually pushed us into New Jersey towards New York - finding factories that first of all didn't have the snow. And they were open and people lived like right above the factory. So we had all these little factories that we would call and say, "Could you do two thousand per week, could you do three thousand per week? What could you do?" And they would do it. At the same time, Scotty's thought they had us because of the weather. They said, "We want 16% more money on what you are paying us or we are going to Alfred Dunner directly and tell them this is what you are paying us." And we didn't listen to their bluff. My dad was involved at the time, and I got on the phone with Neil Scott and said, "Are you sure you are going to close your factory that has 350 people if you can't work for this price?" "You're going to really close your factory?" Because we couldn't pay them more. We quickly called these factories and asked them, "What's the most you could do?" One said, "Oh, I could do eight thousand per week, I could do ten thousand per week." Scotty's were only doing 35 thousand per week -- the other factories were new and they knew how to make them. I said, "I said are you sure -- because your factory will be out of business in two weeks if you stick to this. He said, "No, I'll bet on Scotty's" -- because he was a gambler -- "I'll bet on Scotty's." We said okay. We took all our work out and gave it to all these people, and they were closed. They went to Alfred Dunner and tried to say will you pay us? Alfred Dunner said, "No, we work for Tama." Imagine 35 thousand pairs of pants -- the dollars that is -- and he could have probably made - at least another six or seven years until we had to cut back. That was an interesting little story, it even gets my blood boiling today when I think about it. SC: That's a great story, this is what we are looking for. MF: He just gambled the whole thing away and it was pure greed. At this point we were heavily engineered, we knew what everything costs --we knew how much they were making. There was no reason for it. They just wanted to go directly to Alfred Dunner and not have to get work from us. Alfred Dunner stood behind us -- they still gave them the jackets, but they didn't take away any pants to give to them. SC: Where was their factory again? MF: In the Kresge building. They had a bunch of factories, and they might even be open in some small way -- but I don't know what they are doing. GE: So your family always stayed just in pants. MF: Yes. Way back, I think we made everything. At one point, we made kids' clothing. GE: Maybe way back. If I recall from the last interview - I think after WWII you were pretty much pants. Maybe you could also address this. I seem to recall something about that the one thing your father liked about working with Alfred Dunner was that it was an easy pants to make. MF: Oh yes, they were easy, and that's what the worker's liked. Don't forget they are piece rate union workers. The easier it can be to make them, the better. It got to the point where the workers would complain that, "Oh, I got larger sizes than you." Because large sizes are more to sew -- by a few more inches and more to handle and actually we did sometimes pay more, a little more, on the larger sizes. We would have to keep books on each size each person got -- it got ridiculous, but we would do it because the Union would say, "you're giving her more large sizes." It never failed, when you looked it up -- they actually had less large sizes than the person next to them. They were always jealous of the one next to them. They were looking at the bundle next to them and they would say, "oh, I got size 8-- oh, I got size 32." It always worked out -- the one complaining always had less -- she should have kept quiet because then we had to give her larger sizes. SC: What union was it? MF: ILGWU, and then it became United. GE: Share with us a little bit the relationship -- how large was your management group -- who were the workers? What were the relationships like? Was there any tension? MF: Like anything - really-- there is always a few bad apples. Everyone else was great, and there are always trouble makers. There are some people who enjoy coming to work to make trouble and complain. I don't understand it, I never will -- so that's what you had. Everyone was happy and content and some were exceptional. At the peak we had about 40-50 non-union workers. That would be staff, mechanics and floor people and the rest - about 380 union people. In the end we had about 200 union people and about 25-30 non-union people. GE: How were those last 7 or 8 years - morale-wise- when everything was on the decline? MF: When it was on the decline, I knew right away I had to get government work -- right away. There was a law at the time - it was called the Berry Amendment -- which was a law for the military, they have to make it in the United States. I managed, through meeting people and getting the word out -- we got a small order as a subcontractor to make the Army combat pants -- the old style, the camouflage pants from an outfit out in Connecticut. We were doing really well with that, and he just stopped paying us, so we stopped shipping. We were making them, but we held on because he wasn't paying. Finally he folded, or something happened. We had a lot of pants -- like 200,000 pants that we never got paid for. Then, with a consultant at the time, we were putting in bids for work -- all the time. Finally we got one that hit -- we won the bid -- it was to make jogging pants for the Air Force -- like for the gym. It was a small contract, but nice. It was so easy to make that we made money the first month, which we didn't expect. It was profitable right away. In the interim, now that I had this contract, and we got to know people inside the defense department. I said, "I have all these pants that the guy didn't pay me for -- is there any way you can take them?" And they finagled because they had to make a contract for the pants. They paid me the full price -- as if I bought the fabric. You know I was a subcontractor making them for ten-dollars a pair and now they are paying me twenty eight dollars. So I got most of my money back, I didn't get it all back, but I got 80-90% of it back by holding on to those pants and selling it directly to the government. So we had this contract for the Air Force jogging pants for about a year, year and a half. They cancelled the contract because the soldiers didn't like the fabric. When they walked it went "whoosh, whoosh, whoosh." They didn't like that sound. We worked with the Air Force, I had to fly out to Wright-Patterson out in Ohio, which was really fascinating -- I had to work with different, softer, types of fabrics. We never heard anything back though -- what they ever did with it. I don't know -- it just kind of went away. I'm sure they had some kind of jogging pants somewhere--but we never heard about that. Then we went after this huge order for the Air Force combat uniform -- which was both the jacket and the pants. GE: So this was quite a step for you because you had been doing pants. MF: We kind of figured right off the bat that we'd give out all the jackets, and we'd do all the pants. It was me going by the seat of my pants basically -- I didn't know if they would agree to it. Then, for the pants, we would need an extra 150 people to do this contract, but it was a five-year, 75 million dollar contract. We put in the bid and we would call on Senators -- what do you call it? GE: Lobbying? MF: The Union was actually helping me. They told me that it should count in our favor that we're a union shop. We pay healthcare benefits to these people, we have good working conditions. Why are you ordering things to people on the border of Mexico, who pay Mexicans to do the work? (which was what my sub-contractor was--.) Anyway, to make a long story short - we won this award. The first year was 22 million dollars. That sounds like you win the lottery, and they write you a check for 22 million dollars, but it doesn't work that way. You actually have to go out (with your own money) and buy the fabric, then train all these people -- buy the machines that we don't own or lease them or whatever. There was a learning curve and it was hard -- you are going from the easiest pair of pants to the hardest. GE: This was what year? MF: I want to say 2006 -- maybe -- I'm not sure. I'm all excited, and I immediately have to expand my factory. I have space in my building -- we had moved to a 190 square foot building at this point -- half of it we weren't really using. I had to put more hook-ups for more people and more machines. Three months later my contract with the Union is up and they think I won the lottery -- they think, "Oh, 22 million -- you're doing great -- we want 18% more healthcare, and we are going to give the people less of a plan." They couldn't put their families on the plan and had more of a co-pay. They had told the people that I was offering no wage increase and that I didn't want to pay any healthcare, and I was offering them 2% - which is pretty customary over three years -- 2, 2 and 2, and I said I'll pay the same healthcare as I pay now -- that's what I figured on. The ballot put out to the people was that Tama is offering no wage increase for three years and is not willing to pay any healthcare. Of course, they all went on strike, but the people on the negotiating team crossed the picket line and worked because they knew she was lying -- they were my key people. It was a nightmare --I had to have security - it went on for fifteen weeks. I had the best lawyer - ever. GE: It went on for fifteen weeks? MF: Fifteen weeks -- and I was eliminating the Union. I brought in bus loads of workers from Philadelphia -- from Chinatown-- to fill the seats and do the work, but we were falling behind because it was so disruptive and difficult. That allowed me to sub-contract right away for the jackets -- the government said, "Oh, you are having a strike -- you can do it." It went on for fifteen weeks and the lawyer said, "Now you can advertise for replacement workers, which is basically saying -- you don't need the Union anymore." And it's legal -- you have enough people, and now you are just looking for people to replace the people you had. Then the President of the Union called and said, "Let's have a meeting." They ended up settling. I said, "Now you cost me a lot of money, I was closed for 15 weeks. I hired security, I fell behind on all of my work. They had people picketing J.C. Penny saying , "Don't buy Alfred Dunner." That was probably the nail that sealed it for Alfred Dunner. They had a good reason to say, "What do we need this aggravation for? When we can just buy it for 30% less from China, and no one is going to complain." That probably didn't help either. They settled the contract -- they agreed to 0,1,& ; 0. Now I had to do what they had said and I said, "You cost me so much money. I can't have all this complaining about the large sizes, all this pettiness has to go away. Whether they are on military or Alfred Dunner , they can't complain. But, they still gave me a hard time when they came back. Pretty soon after I decided to sell the contract to the people in Mexico (Texas). I said, "This is not going to work, the people are just not trying, they don't care. " We even tried to pay them more money to do the work and it just wasn't happening. So I sold that contract, so that never really happened. Now I'm back to just having Alfred Dunner again, and I lost my motivation to try -- I'm doing everything to save their jobs, and they go on strike. At the end of the day, they follow the Union, which is stupid. I kind of thought, what's the point of it? When Alfred Dunner did call and said, "we're done" I didn't shed a tear - I felt this weight just lift off my shoulder. I was happy about it actually. SC: And that was in 2009? MF: Now what happened there was they were always caught short at Christmas time. Remember I told you at Christmas the numbers would jump way up. Near the end our average number per week was about 35,000 per week -- it was a normal week. At Christmas, it went up to 90,000-1000,00 per week - from Thanksgiving to the end of the year. That's what sales would be across J.C. Penney as a guide. They were always caught a little bit short -- Dunner was short and then J.C. Penney would look at what sold last year to figure on their orders for this year. So they thought, we are always short -- let's up it 10% and they were already short and now they are going to be short again. They are ordering less because of it. They thought this year, we'll be smart and we are going to over-order and have tons of stock ready so that we fill every single order so that next year when they order 10% more it's the real number. So they ordered a ton of work from us -- it was really busy, and we stored it in our facility because they didn't have room to store all this work. and they paid us for all of it at the time. In 2008 -- that's when the market crashed -- remember the GM was going to fold. The bulk of their customers were mid-western. GE: Of Alfred Dunner? MF: Their biggest buyers are mid-western. GE: The department stores are in the midwest? MF: Even they are everywhere here--.they just sell better in the midwest. And, we see the numbers of what's selling, normally at Christmas time -- it goes from 35 to 90 and we were seeing numbers like 12 thousand, 9 thousand, 16 thousand and here we were making 130 thousand a week -- figuring on that kind of number. I wrote a letter to all my people saying we are going to be laid off for the next 4 months until we eat up all this extra inventory. Two weeks later the president of that company called me up and said, "Mark, we're going to have to take all our work over to China now because sales are so low, we can manage it from overseas." It was kind of an excuse for them, but it worked, and I understood it. I just had to write another letter back and say, "We're closing." GE: So with all of that inventory that you had, were you able to sell that off? MF: Oh yes, It was already paid for by Alfred Dunner. The styles don't change -- they make the same -- black, navy, grey, white -- depending on the time of year. It was standard colors -- eventually it was going to get sold. We would just ship it to them when they had holes in their warehouse and had room. GE: This happened over 3-6 months? MF: From February to April, May -- we got rid of all that extra. GE: And, how many people were working for you at the time when you had to close? MF: About 200 -- and that was 2009. SC: So you have some good anecdotes, too? MF: I do. GE: Just a couple of questions. How do you think this area here has been affected? This was a very thriving textile area and now there's really none. MF: I don't think the area really notices it because other things take its place. My biggest concern with the whole country is that we don't make things here anymore. That's a big danger. We build casinos -- so what is that? That's money spiraling down the toilet. That's not new money coming in from another country or other people. That's our own money going into different pockets. We don't make anything anymore. We are all about the service industry. Even my new business now is basically a service business. That's not the way to grow an economy. You can't just be serving each other hamburgers -- what kind of money are you going to make? You have to sell things to other countries to bring money in and even to make an environment that even if we are not making things right now make it so friendly that Germany wants to build a factory here or Japan. And, they do some of that with the cars, and we need more of that. I notice that even with my business, there are so many things that distract you from your business -- from focusing on your business and it's usually government related things. You are dealing with OSHA -- and OSHA is a good thing to have in place, because all these things start with good intentions but people abuse them. The day I opened up my brand new factory -- it had high ceilings and beautiful, comfortable chairs and all new stuff. The brand new air conditioning unit didn't work -- they were still putting freon in it -- it happened to be one of these ninety degree days -- and it was warm in the factory. People called OSHA because it was too warm -- on the opening day. OSHA came and said they have no rules regarding temperature. Just the fact that people would do that on the opening day of a brand new nice place - I put in systems that would be delivered right to the presses, and then people are complaining. SC: Do you think we are becoming an economic colony of other countries in some ways? MF: We are, but I think there's nothing wrong with that. The whole world is getting smaller -- everything is going to the cheapest country. Even China now -- because I spoke to the President of Alfred Dunner -- maybe last year and said, "How are things going?" He said , "guess what -- China and Central America are too expensive now -- we are in Bangladesh and Cambodia now." Where do you go next - to the moon? Eventually you run out of countries. The good news is that it may be more level -- as long as countries are doing things to make it more level then it's a function of are our oil prices so high that it makes no sense -- then it's like little things that you are deciding about. I just heard that they are building cell phones in the United States -- in Texas. One of the SmartPhones companies is building in Texas. Then you hear, "I'm sure it will have glitches." People have feelings like "we can't even do that right." Which I'm sure we can. We used to do everything -- we used to make TVs here and other things. It's not anyone's fault but the governments that make it so easy to go overseas and so difficult to make things here. When I was in Brazil -- when I worked for Merv -- I ordered a bottle of champagne. I wasn't using money, and I got the bill and it was 3 million of their money and I thought , "Whatever the exchange rate, it can't be good." It turned out to be 300 dollars. I said, "Why is this so expensive?" It was maybe a 20 dollar bottle. They said, "Because we have a 100% import tax." And you should have that -- pay for the job that was lost in your own country and make it more attractive to buy our products here. There are so many simple things we could do, except for the fact that we owe everything to China at this point, we probably can't do anything without their permission. SC: And, we did have high import taxes for a long, long time in the United States. MF: That's just my philosophy. GE: And in terms of the local community, other things took its place and like you said, you think it's unfortunate that we have less manufacturing here. How about in terms of the Jewish community? Forty/fifty years ago there was this thriving community that was often owners of these different factories and much of that has gone away. What do you think the impact has been on the Jewish community here? MF: It must have impacted it in some ways. I don't know what replaced that profession, but you had that group of families that not only had a good business or struggled with their business, but they gave back to the community a lot. Maybe you lose some of that. Being able to fundraise to build a new JCC or a new Temple might be a lot harder because you might not have the families -- that there are some families that their wealth was so great that they passed down to the generations, and they are still giving to the community. But, I don't know of too many people who have a career that can last thirty years. A lot of people that I know, whatever business they are into, before you know it - it either became outdated or something else replaced it. Other people have to re-invent themselves and some people can't. GE: You were saying with the Jewish community there was more of the ability years ago in terms of giving back. What were some of the ways that people gave back and how about your own family? MF: My dad was active with the Jewish Day School and was involved. I remember going to a (during those Israeli wars that would pop up) and they would have a [Jewish] Federation thing that would pop up -- and you'd say, "I pledge 1,000 dollars." They don't have those kinds of things any more or maybe it's more private. GE: The Jewish community especially in this area - they were somehow over-represented in this industry. Why do you think that may be the case? MF: I think it was the proximity to New York City. I think there were some rules with trucking that if you were so far from NY, there were some advantages. There was something like, 50 miles out of NY that you get away with it, you don't if you are closer. GE: The textile industry in general had a lot of Jews and a lot of Italians. Any thoughts as to why those ethnic groups were heavily involved in the industry. MF: We are both so very similar in a lot of ways. It comes from the training that they had -- their parents and grandparents -- that was the profession that you were allowed to do or just did because you enjoyed it. GE: And what professions? MF: Being a tailor -- especially Italians. Italians are still known for being the best tailors. SC: And silk mills. MF: In fact, some of our subcontractors were Italian from the Scranton area. Scotty's is actually an Italian family. They either really were Italian, or Jewish, and then, eventually, Asian. Which is current now and they were great. The thing about Asian people is if they say they're going to have it done by . . . and you say how much can you do? And if they say 20,000, and you think, wait, you only had 8,000 last week, and now you will have 20,000? They say, don't worry, I'll have it, and they do. Because what they do is they spread it out amongst all . . . things you probably don't even know what goes on. They just give it out to their friends' factories, and you don't even want to know where it's going, but it comes back. And they just get it done. GE: Right, right, and they were your subcontractors at the time? How about your work force? Mostly women? MF: Mostly women. GE: What ethnicity were they? MF: Mostly Pennsylvania Dutch. Probably more than any other factory, we had Pennsylvania Dutch women from the Northampton area. When I moved over by the Airport, I made sure it was close enough so that they could all make it. Then all the new people were coming from other countries. We actually found people through the Catholic Charities Group. They would find people from all over the world, so we had people from all walks of life. GE: Did it tend to be first generation workers? MF: The new people? GE: Yes. MF: The new people were -- people in their twenties, and we had to train some of them how to sew. They were willing to learn, and they actually were pretty good. They were really into it. SC: A better work ethic? MF: No, the older workers had the best work ethic. Occasionally you find someone good. But, it was hard to find people -- there were people that came in and maybe by break time they would just leave because they didn't like it -- or maybe they didn't need the money. We didn't pay a whole lot more than unemployment -- maybe we were too close to what unemployment was. GE: It was not the work ethic? MF: We had women 70 years old who still kept coming to work. I don't think it's because they needed the money. Maybe they wanted to get away from their husbands, or got along with the other women there, or were just saving up for a cruise or something. They just really enjoyed working. One benefit because of the way I closed, because they took the work overseas, the workers got two years of college retraining into another field. There are a lot of people who I run into who say that they wished that I would still be open. They say, "We didn't realize how good we had it." Some people went to Amazon.com - where they really need a Union. GE: Where is that? MF: In Fogelsville. I have two workers that I've run into that have lost 40 pounds working at Amazon.com. They were overweight when they worked for me and now they are slim and svelte because they are running -- they don't give them a break -- they go home crying. SC: There were protests. It was awful. MF: It's still bad. They don't let them make more than fifteen dollars per hour. Once you hit that, you'll never get a raise. GE: Now we have two final questions. SC: Actually three final questions. What did your family value most in life and what did you value? These are my film questions. MF: To have family all around and have your health -- that your family is all doing well. GE: Would you say that's both your family's values as well as your own? MF: I would hope so, yes. They may think differently. SC: And how were they connected to the wider community? I think we did talk about that. What gives you a sense of creativity and/or artistry. I used to always say artistry in life, not meaning actual art, but the sense of fulfillment and creativity in life. MF: I think I am a creative person, although I don't use that a lot. I like to make jokes and laugh. If I can make a joke or do something to make people laugh -- I get a kick out of that. I didn't show you my Obama stuff. Let me go get it. This is just a sample of it. GE: Now this is 2008. MF: 2008, so he was just running for President. SC: Oh Wow, can you put this up? We can scan that. MF: If you google Obama visits Tama Manufacturing, you'll have a lot of pictures. I have a bunch I can send you because there was a whole bus of press there -- Time Magazine, CNN. I was on Wolf Blitzer -- the Wall -- there was a picture of me, Obama and one of my workers. GE: Tell us about it. MF: What happened was -- the Union lady called me on Sunday. She said, "Do you mind if we bring Obama in on Tuesday- which was April 1 - for a tour?" I didn't mind at all because by then he was like a rock star -- I just wanted to meet him. They said, "Just don't tell anyone because of security." He's going to walk through and shake people's hands -- spend about a half hour. Then on Monday, the Secret Service and his advance people came through to see where the bus would park, the path he would take. I asked my mom if she wanted to go, and my kids took off-- Sean and Danny. Sean was allowed to vote that year, and he plays basketball, and they were talking about basketball. The first bus shows up with the press. Then a half hour later Obama's bus was supposed to come. The press bus driver says, "Do you want to pull the bus around to the other side?" He said, "No, I'll wait here, I don't want to be inspected again." If either bus goes out of sight, they would have to get the dogs again. So then, Obama comes in the back door of the cutting room and keeps chatting with everyone. He asked me, "Why are you still in business, when no one else is?" I told him as long as fabric mills are open -- but you have to put in some of these import taxes. This is what we are fighting against. Sure enough, a year and a half later, I was closed. He was nice to everyone. GE: He came to Muhlenberg. SC: I wonder if it was when he came to Muhlenberg. GE: No, I think it was in September. MF: He went right from me to Springhouse. He spoke there and said, "I just came from Tama Manufacturing. It has a nice owner, nice people." Then he came back two years later and went to the unemployment office and met some of my people. They told him he visited them at Tama Manufacturing and spoke to them, and now they don't have jobs. SC: That gives me shivers. MF: He said, "some jobs you just can't save." Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Mark Fogelman, October 12, 2013
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Mark Fogelman talks about how he returned to the family business after spending close to ten years working in the Television business in California, notably as a production manager with Merv Griffin Productions. Around 1990, Tama Manufacturing began exclusively sewing pants for the manufacturer, Alfred Dunner. Fortunately, purchases of the Alfred Dunner brand grew rapidly during this time period. At its peak, Tama Manufacturing employed close to 400 people and used twelve subcontractors to meet Alfred Dunner’s needs. Alfred Dunner continued their relationship with Tama Manufacturing until 2009.
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LVTNT-21
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2013-10-12
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
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Tama Fogelman
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5.4 August 7, 2013 Tama Fogelman and Maxine Klein, August 7, 2013 LVTNT-24 1:20:54 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Tama Fogelman Maxine Klein Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 FogelmanTama_KleinMaxine_20130807 1.0:|29(7)|54(2)|69(7)|82(18)|99(6)|110(8)|127(4)|144(14)|165(3)|190(11)|209(11)|226(3)|239(16)|258(3)|273(13)|292(5)|311(8)|334(10)|359(13)|390(9)|417(8)|442(9)|469(14)|496(13)|515(15)|540(9)|575(8)|604(10)|625(14)|650(9)|673(15)|704(12)|719(13)|744(8)|763(14)|782(10)|803(12)|828(8)|853(10)|884(5)|909(4)|946(10)|975(15)|1004(5)|1025(15)|1038(12)|1063(11)|1090(11)|1113(11)|1136(7)|1161(10)|1182(4)|1201(6)|1220(6)|1237(13)|1264(14)|1285(3)|1312(8)|1333(5)|1358(9)|1375(18)|1388(14)|1407(4)|1428(15)|1451(17)|1478(8)|1505(11)|1520(13)|1545(6)|1574(15)|1597(10)|1616(15)|1629(14)|1648(9)|1667(7)|1686(8)|1705(3)|1726(7)|1743(3)|1766(18)|1781(17) 0 https://youtu.be/-IX8HtCpMH4 YouTube video 0 Introducing the Kivert Sisters SC: So I’m going to ask you, first of all, to state both of your full names, and then I’ll talk to one person and then to another person. What is your full name?
 ; 
 ; TF: Tama Arlene Kivert Fogelman.
 ; 
 ; SC: And when were you born?
 ; 
 ; TF: 10-01-43.
 ; 
 ; SC: And can you talk a little about where you have lived all your life? 0 250 Family History: The Chenetz Family SC: So Tama, can you talk a little bit about what you know about your parents, their names? Where they have lived? Also, your grandparents and your great-grandparents…as much as you know about your family – going back even before they lived in the United States - whatever you know.
 ; 
 ; TF: My parents were both born in this country. My father was born in Northampton, our mother was born in Freeland, PA. My grandparents – I don’t remember where they were from. Oh, Detroit?
 ; 
 ; MK: No. Our grandparents were from – on mother’s side, on the Chenetz side – my mother’s name was Mae Chenetz. She was the third of five children. Her father came from Ukraine –- near Kiev. 0 535 Family History: The Kivert Family MK: So, let’s see what happened then with Mother. Well, then she met our father, Saul. 
 ; 
 ; TF: She worked at the Five and Ten Cent Store, across the street. 
 ; 
 ; MK: Is that where she worked? No, she didn’t work there. 
 ; 
 ; TF: Well, where did she work?
 ; 
 ; MK: She worked as a bookkeeper for one of the furniture stores – Landau. 
 ; 
 ; TF: Mother never told me that. 
 ; 
 ; MK: Oh, yeah, she worked as a bookkeeper.
 ; 
 ; TF: Well, maybe that’s where she met daddy?
 ; 
 ; MK: That’s where she met daddy.
 ; 0 1188 Saul Kivert: Entrepreneur MK: So where were we here? Daddy started the tailor shop. 
 ; 
 ; SC: That is fascinating. So he was mechanical – in so many ways.
 ; 
 ; MK: I guess he was. And he was artistic also-- later in life. He painted and did needlepoint . We have hundreds of pieces of things that he did. He was very prolific. And then in the meantime, he also baked. He baked challah.
 ; 0 1702 Saul Kivert's Tailor Shop SC: Do you know, just as a question, before we get into the business, what year he took over the business from his father and when he added the dry cleaning and the suit club?
 ; 
 ; MK: I don’t know…that was all before I was born. Well, he and mother got married in 1931. Did he have the tailor shop then or was he still running his father’s? 
 ; 
 ; TF: I don’t have any memory of his father’s business. My memory is he had the tailor shop - 2155.
 ; 
 ; MK: He had it in Hazleton.
 ; 0 2085 Maxine Klein's Memories of the Factory SC: What was the address of the factory?
 ; 
 ; MK: It was between 20 and 21st on Main Street – 20 something Main Street. It would have been an odd number.
 ; 
 ; SC: Was that an existing building?
 ; 
 ; MK: It was a bank building. I have memories, when my father started the factory. It was right after the war. During the war, women, obviously, went back to work and had a lot of men’s jobs, and they started wearing pants. The only pants that were made at that time for women were tailored like men’s pants. After the war, my father thought this was going to be a big thing. He never had his own brand – he was a contractor. So he went into New York, and he met up with a man named, S.M. Elowsky, who owned four or five different manufacturing companies. He wanted to make women’s tailored pants, because he knew how to make tailored pants.
 ; 0 2464 The Sisters' Childhood in Northampton SC: What were your memories?
 ; 
 ; TF: Related to the factory you mean?
 ; 
 ; SC: And just your memories growing up in the area.
 ; 
 ; TF: It was very nice. It was easy. You could walk anywhere any time of day and at night time you weren’t frightened to walk the street or anything.
 ; 
 ; MK: No, no.
 ; 
 ; TF: Northampton was a booming little town. 0 2583 Marriages & ; Family Businesses SC: Were most of the store owners Jewish? Because that was true in South Bethlehem. 
 ; 
 ; MK: A lot were. As she said, Coleman’s, Lerner’s.
 ; 
 ; TF: How about the cotton shop?
 ; 
 ; MK: Oh, Kroupes [?] – that was our cousin. The furniture store, Glazier’s – Northampton Furnishing.
 ; 
 ; TF: Well, that was Glaziers, but that was also Roth.
 ; 
 ; MK: No, Roth was another one.
 ; 
 ; TF: Oh, that’s right.
 ; 
 ; SC: Were they related to the Glazier’s furniture store in Allentown.
 ; 
 ; MK: Yes, yes, yes.
 ; 
 ; TF: It’s all relatives. 0 2872 Childhood Memories (cont'd) SC: Do you have any memories from childhood that you can share?
 ; 
 ; TF: Well I don’t know how it would relate to what you are interested in. As I said, life there was very nice, it was very easy. My parents were known in the community – they were liked. So I didn’t ever have to deal with anti-semitism. 
 ; 
 ; MK: I didn’t either.
 ; 
 ; TF: That is something I didn’t feel. I’m sure it was there somewhere. I know my father was very friendly with the Priest at the Catholic Church. He would go there a lot. Maybe they drank – I don’t know what they did there. I’m just saying that mother played bridge with a lot of the neighbors –so, it was a very nice life. It was a very nice life. 0 3148 The War Years: Saul Kivert & ; the Billera Pants Factory MK: Our father (during the War Years – during the 40’s), he had the tailor shop during the day and Tama remembers, he also worked for the pants factory at night.
 ; 
 ; TF: In Northampton.
 ; 
 ; MK: The Billera Pants Factory had a government contract to make …
 ; 
 ; GE: This wasn’t his pants factory? This was another pants factory?
 ; 
 ; MK: No, they had a government contract to make army uniforms.
 ; 0 3442 The Kivert Sisters: Early Adulthood SC: Maybe we should switch over to the business now?
 ; 
 ; GE: Did you want to ask them anything – in regards to their own education?
 ; 
 ; SC: We didn’t really talk about that - your own education, both of you? Did you ever become involved in the business?
 ; 
 ; TF: Well, I became involved in the business when my husband died – so that was 16 years ago.
 ; 
 ; SC: What was your education?
 ; 
 ; TF: I only went to high school. That’s as far as I went. I got married right after high school.
 ; 
 ; SC: What year did you get married?
 ; 
 ; TF: 1952.
 ; 
 ; SC: And that makes sense – that’s the way it was supposed to work back then. 0 3762 Tama Manufacturing GE: We’ve already talked a lot about the business, but we are going to continue to have that conversation. Some of these things you’ve talked about, and we’ll just go through it real quickly. In terms of who started the business, a little bit the origins, maybe just to recap and to summarize.
 ; 
 ; TF: Well, our father started the business. Maxine, you were clear about where he started -- underneath the house?
 ; 
 ; MK: I don’t know . .. you thought he had an early or a few machines in a garage or somewhere under the house. 
 ; 
 ; TF: Maybe the garage thing was behind the bank, as you thought.
 ; 
 ; MK: I remember it was ’46 that he was in the bank building then.
 ; 0 4341 The '70s: Changes in Manufacturing MK: No, it was in New York. He was there, too. During the ‘70’s, the manufacturing began to go to China and Mexico.
 ; 
 ; GE: To China that early?
 ; 
 ; MK: In the ‘70’s the factory had trouble getting stuff made there, so they decided to diversify. They opened another factory called Penn Garment that opened in Allentown. They made very specific things that I don’t remember.
 ; 
 ; GE: Separate from Tama Manufacturers?
 ; 
 ; MK: Yes, but the three of them were owners.
 ; 0 MovingImage Maxine Kline and Tama Fogelman talk about how their father, Saul Kivert, became a tailor at sixteen years old to help support his family when Saul’s father, a tailor, had a nervous breakdown. During World War II, Saul worked at a pants factory and learned the business. After the war, Saul started Tama Manufacturing-- a tailored women’s pants company. Interview with Tama Fogelman and Maxine Tannenbaum Klein, August 7, 2013 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is August 7, 2013. So I'm going to ask you, first of all, to state both of your full names, and then I'll talk to one person and then to another person. What is your full name? TAMA FOGELMAN: Tama Arlene Kivert Fogelman. SC: And when were you born? TF: 10-01-43. SC: And can you talk a little about where you have lived all your life? About the different places where you have lived. And then we'll move on, and I'll come back and talk to you specifically. TF: What I recall is growing up in Northampton, PA. I got married and lived in Allentown the rest of my life. MAXINE KLEIN: Didn't you live in Hazleton first? TF: Yes, but I don't recall it -- what do you want? SC: So your family lived in Hazleton first? TF: Originally, that's where I was born, my family was born in Hazleton. But my family moved to Northampton when I was three. SC: Do you remember the address in Northampton? TF: 2155 Main Street. SC: And where have you lived since then? What addresses? TF: Well I lived----what's that apartment? MK: Before that - you lived--.when you first married--you lived in Harrisburg. TF: Right -- it's so long ago. For a brief time, I lived in Harrisburg, on Riverside Drive, when we were first married. It was a new high-rise building. Then we moved to Allentown -- to Valley View apartment. Then we moved to 1237 Rye Street -- a little ranch house. Then we moved to 2434 Livingston Street, Allentown, and then we built this house. SC: And that's a normal progression in life. SC: Can you state your full name and when you were born and where you have lived? MK: Maxine Kivert Tannenbaum Klein. I was born May 23, 1942. I lived at 2155 Main Street in Northampton. Then we lived at 1137 Lehigh Parkway East in Allentown. Then I got married, and we lived in the Jordan Park Apartments. Then I lived for two years in Fort Benning, GA, with my husband, during all the "race goings-on" in the early '60's. Then we lived on South 12th Street in an apartment, when we came back to Allentown. Then we bought a house on 21st St. in Allentown, 1118 North 21st St. Then we moved to Muhlenberg Street -- 840 N. Muhlenberg Street. Then my first husband died. Soon after, I bought another house on Hampton Road -- 1436 Hampton Road in Allentown. And then I lived in an apartment behind Wegman's for two years. And now, we live in Orefield. Lots of places! SC: Tama, let's start with you -- the two of you with the history -- if you remember background from your parents, grandparents, you can chime in at this point and then we'll be more specific. SC: So Tama, can you talk a little bit about what you know about your parents, their names? Where they have lived? Also, your grandparents and your great-grandparents--as much as you know about your family -- going back even before they lived in the United States - whatever you know. TF: My parents were both born in this country. My father was born in Northampton, our mother was born in Freeland, PA. My grandparents -- I don't remember where they were from. Oh, Detroit? MK: No. Our grandparents were from -- on mother's side, on the Chenetz side -- my mother's name was Mae Chenetz. She was the third of five children. Her father came from Ukraine --- near Kiev. Her biological mother was from there, too. Her name was Tilly or Tama -- they [the grandparents] came to America in the early 1900's after the turn of the century. They were not married when they came over, they posed as sister and brother. But I think they were engaged. Somewhat scandalous -- they shared the same room coming over. TF: I think that was common! MK: This is mother! This is what mother said. They came over and they did marry here. Then they lived in Freeland. When they first came here they lived in McAdoo, and my grandfather's name was Morris Chenetz, my mother's father. His father came over also, Moses Chenetz. They lived in Freeland and initially he had a backpack, and he was a peddler. Then he and his brother Barney opened a men's store in downtown Freeland. Then many years later they opened another store in Hazleton. That's where the family grew up, mostly in Freeland, supported by that store. SC: Was the store a clothing store? MK: Men's clothing - Chenetz Men Store. SC: Did they purchase their goods from New York? MK: Yes. They were not tailors. He purchased it from all the well known brand names of men's clothing at that time. His first wife, Tilly, died around 1919, after she delivered their fourth child, which was premature. Both the child and then she died from infection. As my mother had told us, antiseptic methods hadn't reached Freeland yet. She got an infection from an intervention by the doctor, whatever, and then she died. Then our grandfather married again, six months later. He went to Chicago and came back with his new wife, didn't tell the children, [just] came back. Her name was Lottie Holstein. She really raised our mother and the other two from that time on, and then she [Lottie] went on to have two more daughters. One of them is still living, the second youngest one, Evelyn Diamond, lives in Baltimore, no, Washington. So, let's see what happened then with Mother. Well, then she met our father, Saul. TF: She worked at the Five and Ten Cent Store, across the street. MK: Is that where she worked? No, she didn't work there. TF: Well, where did she work? MK: She worked as a bookkeeper for one of the furniture stores -- Landau. TF: Mother never told me that. MK: Oh, yeah, she worked as a bookkeeper. TF: Well, maybe that's where she met daddy? MK: That's where she met daddy. Daddy came up with a friend, who was a manager for J.J. Newberry -- the friend was. They had to come up to the Hazleton store. He came up with him from Northampton. My mother said she saw them across the street. Their place was right on Main Street. She was looking out the window and she saw these two guys and she and her friend went down to meet them and then my father said, then, he saw this woman who was built like a "you know what!" SC: Well built? MK: Anyway they met on the corner right outside J.J. Newberry. Then he would drive up from Northampton in his Model T Ford -- which had no top on it. He said he had to drive up the mountain backwards because it didn't have enough engine energy, so he had to come up backwards. He'd come up and he'd bring her home from school. He would wait outside the school for her. And she was annoyed because she was dating this guy, and she was dating that guy, and there he was, he was always there--he was just there. Anyway, they eloped. SC: What was his name? MK: Saul Kivert and he used the middle initial A. but he wasn't given one. He just thought he needed one. I should go back to his parents. Shouldn't I? SC: Yes, but what year were the two of them born? MK: My mother was born in 1912 and my father was born in 1909 -- the youngest of six children. SC: So this was in the 1920's -- the Model T? MK: Oh yes, he bought his first car for 10 dollars. His father was named Samuel Kivert. Samuel was from a shtetl in Russia called-- they lived in Verner [sounds like], although Samuel himself was from another shtetl called Peinyan [soundslike]. But he and his wife, Hilda [in Yiddish, Hindelaya] -- her maiden name was Shaefer -lived in Verner. When they decided to come to America, it might have been in 1902. He came over, leaving her and three -- well four -- one had died of measles, so there were three remaining children there - to make a living here. His wife had a sister living in Bethlehem -- she had come before. She had married Coleman, that was her married name. The only way you could come was if you had someone to sponsor you or if you knew where you could find employment. Now, my father's father, Samuel, was a tailor -- so what I understand is that the family was tailors for three hundred years back. They were just all tailors. There was a job available in the Lehigh Valley because it was a burgeoning industrial area, so he came under the sponsorship of his sister-in-law. Where he lived, I don't know where. He probably lived with them, but I don't know -- for two years, until he earned enough money to bring over Hilda and the three children. They must have come over around 1905, as far as I can guess. Then they had two more children, Ida and my father, who was the youngest. Anna, Joe and Arthur were born in Europe, and Ida and dad were born here. My grandfather was a tailor, but then I understand that he opened up a store in Bath. They lived in Bath then. He opened up a store that sold clothing for the farmers -- that sort of thing. TF: Overalls. MK: Overalls and that kind of thing. His father was a tailor also and they custom-made clothes. There was an article in the paper at one time. My father and his father had made this huge pair of overalls for an enormous farmer. Each of them stood on a separate leg and the newspaper took their picture. SC: Was that the Morning Call? MK : Yes. Anyway, his father, Samuel, became ill -- he had a nervous breakdown and could no longer work. Our father, Saul, knew that somebody had to do something. He went downstairs and took his father's sewing machine apart and put it back together again -- to try to figure out how it works. Then he took a garment apart (a pair of pants) and put it back together again to learn how to do this. He then became a tailor. He opened up a tailor shop. He was about 16 or 17. He had a lot of other jobs, but ultimately he opened up his own tailor shop. A couple of years later, when he was around 19 or 20, he met my mother -- they got married in 1931. TF: Excuse me one second. Where was that tailor shop? When he was young? MK: I don't know--it was in Northampton. I don't know--.He said his parents lived above the Five and Dime or Millers -- somewhere there. I don't know if his tailor shop was somewhere else. SC: So they lived in Bath, but the tailor shop was in Northampton? MK: I think they moved to Northampton. His parents moved to Northampton, as well. TF: But when Zadie [Yiddish for grandfather] had that nervous breakdown, daddy had to go to Allentown to bring him over every day to work in the tailor shop. MK: That's right. TF: So, I don't know in-between there. When Zadie and his wife and family moved to Allentown, maybe they lived with Aunt Annie. MK: They lived with their oldest daughter Annie on South West Street. With Anna and Dave Plotnick [?] -- his [Saul's] parents did. Then he got sick. It was around 1920 because it was right around the time that the Allentown State Hospital opened up. He was hospitalized in New Jersey for a while. He was originally hospitalized in New Jersey because he was enormously overweight, and he had lost 150 lbs. in about six months. and he kind of lost his mind also. TF: That is what they say-- MK: This is just how things are. We don't know what really happened. Personally, I don't know how any of them can stay sane - living in Europe with the pogroms and the whole thing and coming here--.it was just perilous. TF: The thing was they had family here for them to come to. It wasn't like going to the Lower East Side. That must have been a whole different experience. MK: Yeah but they still didn't speak any English -- there's a whole lot of them--not only them, that whole generation that came over. SC: So initially they did go to the Lower East Side? MK: No, they never went - neither parent -- my mother's nor my father's parents ever lived in New York. My mother's family went right to McAdoo-- to the coal regions in Pennsylvania, and our father came right to the Lehigh Valley. SC: And, there was a small Jewish community in the coal region? MK: Yes, absolutely. TF: And synagogues -- even in Northampton there was a synagogue. MK: Yes, our grandfather was one of the founders of that synagogue. In Northampton -- there used to be one. That synagogue is defunct now. TF: I remember going to it. MK: I do, too. TF: We took you -- that's good. MK: Charles Glazier and I used to run up and down the back steps. TF: That's all the kids did--.you went in the basement and played - you didn't really sit at the services. MK: Am I giving too much information? SC: No, not at all. MK: So where were we here? Daddy started the tailor shop. SC: That is fascinating. So he was mechanical -- in so many ways. MK: I guess he was. And he was artistic also-- later in life. He painted and did needlepoint . We have hundreds of pieces of things that he did. He was very prolific. And then in the meantime, he also baked. He baked challah. TF: Yes, he taught us all to bake challah. MK: I taught him now to make challah! TF: Oh, you did? Oh well. MK: He baked cookies--. TF: But he baked challahs for so many people's Bar Mitzvahs and things. SC: Did he like school? MK: No, because he stuttered. He had a speech impediment and he stuttered very markedly. He used to perform in minstrel shows in Northampton. There were minstrel shows that they would put on. And, of course, when he sang, he didn't stutter. He liked doing that. TF: He and Benny Glazier were "Endmen" on the minstrel show. They made up stuff -- they forgot -- they made up stories, whatever. MK: He was a comedian -- my father -- he really was. By the time I grew up, or I have a recollection of him, I remember him stuttering -- but not nearly as bad as he did when he was young. TF: Also in high school he worked for the baseball team. He was the water boy and he got paid. He was always involved with things. MK: He also learned to drive when he was nine years old! His father bought a car when my father was just nine -- he was the youngest and he would drive! People would see him driving down the street and they didn't think anybody was driving the car. He was very small as a child. When he graduated high school he was only 5'6". When he was twenty one he was 5'11". So he was really small. And then, not only did he work for the baseball team, but he also worked for Schisler Funeral Home. SC: Was that the Blue Mountain Baseball League? Do you remember? MK: I don't know? TF: It was high school. SC: So it wasn't one of the adult sort of semi-pro? TF: Not that I recall. MK: When he was in high school, Schlisler would call him if they needed someone to drive the hearse. So he would get out of school, and he would go and drive this hearse-- and he was little and he had this big black top hat on. He said that was probably all they could really see. Sometimes he would have to go with them to help move the body. Bring the bodies from the place that they died into the funeral home. They would put them inside a basket -- they would carry the bodies in a basket. One time he was picking this person up and his hands went through everything -- the person must have been dead a long time. Well, he got so sick, he never went back again. That was the end of his job at Schisler Funeral Home. TF: I don't think I ever heard that story. MK: Oh God, I've heard it many times. TF: You heard it? MK: Yes, many times. This is not really related? SC: No, it is -- it absolutely is. It's showing his expertise -- different types of expertise of many things that will make him a businessman. MK: He saved up a lot of money. He had a bank account and from the time he was very young, he believed in saving money. He always saved money all through his life, no matter what they did, they always saved money. And when he was young, his next in line, his sister Ida, was a little older -- none of his siblings were that particularly gorgeous-- but Ida was the prettiest one of all. We think our father was very handsome, also -- they kind of got better as they went -- she improved! But Ida was the apple of her mother's eye. My father had said that when he was in high school, he had saved up about four hundred dollars, which was a lot of money then. His mother went into his bank account, took the money out without asking him, to buy Ida a fur coat, which, obviously, he never forgot. TF: But he didn't say anything -- this was his family. Can you imagine? Oh My God. MK: So she could be attractive and get a nice man and all that. Anyway, that was part of his character. He never objected, he always loaned money to other family members. TF: He was family -- he was very attached to family, that's the thing. No matter what! When anyone in the family needed help, he did everything he could. SC: So he was born in 1909 and when he was sixteen he took apart the machine. MK: Approximately that. It was in the early 20's because his father was in the hospital then, the State Hospital. SC: He must have been artistic, he must have had a sense of (being very smart) taking things apart visually and putting them back together again, and he saved money. So he had a sense of how to be a businessman. MK: How to get out of where he was and into what he wanted to do. TF: And don't forget he also then had the dry cleaning in the tailor shop. MK: Oh, that's right. He started dry cleaning also. TF: I can see that "big unit" in the tailor shop. MK: See, I don't remember much of that because I wasn't born yet. TF: And, he had that club every week. The Men's Suit Club. He'd go into New York and buy fabric. Customer's would come in and pick out the fabric. He'd measure them, and he would make magnificent men's suits. MK: Yes, we have pictures of suits he made for us. Every Easter he would always make suits for us -- we all had matching suits with hats. TF: And he made all my clothing, skirts -- "skurts", I used to say-- that's how I spoke! MK: He also did most of Mother's shopping when he would go into New York. He'd buy her clothes. TF: Well, he'd bring us all things. We always loved whatever he bought. MK: Everything he bought was always "right" for each one. TF: He loved Macy's. He'd always go to Macy's - R.H. Macy's. MK: That was his "hot spot" TF: Of retail. SC: Did you ever go to New York with him? MK: Yes. SC: Did you ever go to Macy's with him? MK: I remember going to the Lower East Side. TF: We'd go shopping there, then he took us shopping to the stores. MK: I remember going to the Lower East Side and going to some of the fabric places he went to, then some of the delicatessens. Then in the early 50's he took me to my first Broadway show, which was Guys and Dolls, in 1950 with the original cast and then two years later, they took me again. SC: Which show? MK: South Pacific. We saw the original -- South Pacific. TF: I think maybe we all went. Did Randi? MK: No. TF: But she was born in 1953. MK: Yes, but she wouldn't go in 1953. TF: No, not in '53. But she was little when we took her. I remember we used to tell her -- she'd sit in the back seat with Mama and Pop. We'd tell her to hold her breath as she was going under the tunnel . MK: Oh, you're so mean! TF: Well, I guess she knew it was funny. MK: Yeah, he was very proactive in terms of family. SC: Do you know, just as a question, before we get into the business, what year he took over the business from his father and when he added the dry cleaning and the suit club? MK: I don't know--that was all before I was born. Well, he and mother got married in 1931. Did he have the tailor shop then or was he still running his father's? TF: I don't have any memory of his father's business. My memory is he had the tailor shop - 2155. MK: He had it in Hazleton. TF: That's right in Hazleton. MK: Right after they were married, a week later, they convinced my mother's oldest sister, Ethel, and her fiancé Sam Copland, to elope as well. Then the two families lived together in the same apartment in Hazleton. TF: Alter Street. I can see the sign, Copland and Kivert. MK: They opened a tailor and dry cleaning there. SC: And the name of the street was? MK: Alter Street in Hazleton. And the name of the outfit was Copland and Kivert. We have a picture of that somewhere -- Copland and Kivert. TF: So what was that dry cleaning or tailor? I think it was dry cleaning, too. MK: Yes it was. TF: We lived up above. I don't remember that so clearly, but we would go visit a lot after we left there and moved to Northampton. MK: Then they moved to Northampton after about two or three years. Tama was born there and Ethel and Sam had their first daughter, who they also named Tama. Tama Lee. TF: She lives in town. MK: I don't know if you know Tama Lee Barski? TF: She has a lot of energy and does a lot of good in the community. MK: So the two Tamas lived together, and the parents lived together, and then our parents and this Tama came back to Northampton after about two or three years, and he opened his own, 2155 -- they must have bought the house then -- there. TF: I don't know -- I know they first lived in the apartment, in the back somewhere. MK: I thought that was when they were first married. TF: Well, I remember. MK: So it must have been with you then. So they didn't have a house right away. TF: I don't know where the tailor shop was --maybe he rented? MK: Maybe the tailor shop was under the house. TF: I don't know if they bought it, maybe they just rented. MK: Well, they didn't own that house 2155. They rented it from the neighbors, Annie and Charlie Driscoll [?], who lived next door. SC: That was in Northampton--on Main Street? That was in the 1930's? MK: Correct. SC: So we can look that up - on Ancestry. MK: Go ahead. TF: I just didn't want to forget that our father had this vision, what excited him when he saw a pair of ladies slacks -- was how the pockets were and the zipper had to all line up. SC: So the brother-in-law stayed in Hazleton but moved over to the store. MK: Chenetz Men's Shop. SC: That was his father-in-law's. MK: Father-in-law, and then he owned it also. They ended up owning it together I believe. And it was on Broad Street in Hazleton for as long as I know. TF: Well, Tama Lee moved here after Moishe died and that's when the store closed, I guess. MK: So, their third generation - the other Tama -- her husband -- they moved up from Philadelphia and he went into the men's shop also--.and Uncle Charlie, my mother's brother, worked there for a long time also. That was sort of the family business. TF: Then he moved to Northampton and worked in the factory for a while. MK: Uncle Charlie did -- yes, he did. My Uncle was not doing well. He and his wife and children --- they had a lot of problems. So, my father in his usual way, decided to move them all to Northampton and Charlie, his brother-in-law, would work in the factory, and they'd get the children into the good school system in Northampton and straighten them all out. That lasted for a couple of years and then my Uncle Charlie decided he was working too hard and wanted more money, and my father said forget that, and that was the end of that. They moved back to Hazleton. SC: Do either one of you have memories of your childhood -- where you went to school and any type of specific memories and then when you got married and were you connected to the shops or the factory? TF: Oh yes, we were very connected. First of all the tailor shop was under where we lived, and the factory was just a block away. So every day after school, I'd stop in there. SC: What was the address of the factory? MK: It was between 20 and 21st on Main Street -- 20 something Main Street. It would have been an odd number. SC: Was that an existing building? MK: It was a bank building. I have memories, when my father started the factory. It was right after the war. During the war, women, obviously, went back to work and had a lot of men's jobs, and they started wearing pants. The only pants that were made at that time for women were tailored like men's pants. After the war, my father thought this was going to be a big thing. He never had his own brand -- he was a contractor. So he went into New York, and he met up with a man named, S.M. Elowsky, who owned four or five different manufacturing companies. He wanted to make women's tailored pants, because he knew how to make tailored pants. He opened the factory in around 1945 and opened around 1946 -- right when the war ended. He used to go to Atlanta -- it was very difficult to get machinery because this was after the war and this wasn't readily available. So he bought a lot of machinery in Atlanta, Georgia as well as in other areas. I have a doll that came from that trip. I have two very favorite dolls that came from trips that he made to Atlanta. He would go into Rich's Department Store in Atlanta. The first doll was Esmerelda, which I still have in my curio cabinet. The second doll I named Sally Waters. She was one of those dolls where the eyes - it was a mama doll. Anyway, on the one trip when he came back, he was opening the factory in this bank building, I remember standing on the front porch of this. It was just a block away from where the two streets of Northampton come together. I can still see him. He was bringing machinery home from Atlanta. Someone was driving--- it was some kind of van car that they had in the 30's, and it was loaded with machinery. He was bringing it up, he was going to go around the back of the building and was going to bring it in the back of the building. As he comes through this intersection -- he is hanging on the outside of the back -- hanging on to some machinery - his whole body is outside of the car. I'm sure he didn't come home from Atlanta that whole way. But, I saw him flying up the road, he's waving. That was such a clear memory. That was around 1945-1946 -- I had to be four years old. TF: He was strong as a bull. He was so strong. He helped carry our breakfront up the whole flight of steps at Valley View Apartments. MK: My mother would send me down the alley, and I could go to the factory whenever I wanted to. There was a little office where the secretary sat -- her name was Dorothy. TF: Dottie. MK: Was her name Dorothy Wahl? TF: No. MK: Anyway, her name was Dorothy. And, I would sit there and sharpen a lot of pencils and things like that. I felt so important -- I was four or five. Then other times, I would go to the spreading department -- where they would spread all the fabric before they cut it on the big, long tables that were located in the basement of the building. I remember sitting on the stairs that led down to the basement watching the men and they had these fluorescent lights -- it was very bright and lit -- even though it was a very dank kind of basement. I remember they had calendars up with war pin-up girls, Betty Grable and all of these--.and I learned the word "cheesecake" from them. TF Oh, she's a rotten kid! MK: Right -- they never took the calendars down, even though I was there. GAIL EISENBERG: I remember seeing those types of things. MK: I was at the factory a lot - just because I had nothing else to do, and I found it endlessly fascinating. TF: And, she was such a good girl -- it's not like she tore places apart. MK: No, I would just sit and watch. TF: I liked taking her with me with my friends. MK: She schlepped [Yiddish for dragged] me everywhere in Northampton. SC: And, of course all the cutters were men. MK: They were all men, oh yes, and all the sewers were women. Only the cutters and some of the foremen were men -- I'm trying to think what else--.no, that's it. All the rest were all women. GE: And they made women's pants. This was new at the time. MK: New, right. Then they also made - S.M. Elowsky had a company that made children's clothes -- Derby. All bottoms, always bottoms -- they never made tops. SC: In the 1950's did he make blue jeans? MK: No, never made jeans - always tailored pants. TF: And then maybe they made skorts? MK: They made skirts. TF: Like pants and skirts. MK: And just regular skirts they made, too. GE: We'll get into the business later. SC: What were your memories? TF: Related to the factory you mean? SC: And just your memories growing up in the area. TF: It was very nice. It was easy. You could walk anywhere any time of day and at night time you weren't frightened to walk the street or anything. MK: No, no. TF: Northampton was a booming little town. They had a few department stores, believe it or not. Maybe you heard it from other interviews. Lerner's , which was a Jewish family, Coleman's, which was a Jewish family - lovely department stores. They had everything -- bras, nightgowns, children's clothes. MK: Miller's? TF: But they weren't Jewish. MK: But we went there anyway. TF: Oh yeah. I'm just saying, the whole town was thriving and it was a great little town. There was one movie. I went to the movies a lot with mother. GE: Is that still the "Roxy"? MK: Yes, I went there all the time, too. TF: We lived just a block up from there. SC: Do you remember who owned Miller's? TF: Well I guess they were the Miller's! But they weren't Jewish. I can't recall right now. SC: But it wasn't Harvey? MK: Doesn't sound right. I think I would recognize it because my father would call him by his first name. We always like to go into Miller's -- they had a wonderful - in their basement they had a big hardware section. We got a lot of things there. He liked the hardware section at Miller's. GE: Where were these department stores? MK: On Main Street -- right across from where the factory was. TF: It was the "Main" street. GE: Because I've been to the Roxy. MK: It would be from the Roxy sort of north. TF: Well, up to 21st and down to 17th. MK: Right, between 17th and 21st was all the businesses. Above 21st was just residence. SC: Were most of the store owners Jewish? Because that was true in South Bethlehem. MK: A lot were. As she said, Coleman's, Lerner's. TF: How about the cotton shop? MK: Oh, Kroupes [?] -- that was our cousin. The furniture store, Glazier's -- Northampton Furnishing. TF: Well, that was Glaziers, but that was also Roth. MK: No, Roth was another one. TF: Oh, that's right. SC: Were they related to the Glazier's furniture store in Allentown. MK: Yes, yes, yes. TF: It's all relatives. MK: I can tell you a funny story about that - one that goes way back. This is an interesting story. When our grandfather, Sam Kivert, was at the dock in -- I think they said he left from Latvia -- what was the port there -- Riga, maybe? He was on the dock, ready to leave to come to America. He met another man, whose last name was Zowman -- who had a little boy -- his son with him, who also was going to America. The son's name was Cecil. TF: Oh, for Heaven's Sake. Well, maybe they have some of that. MK: They may, I don't know. SC: No, we don't. MK: Cecil was about six at the time. Cecil and his father were going to America. I don't know if the mother had died already -- I don't remember that. I got this story from Cecil, when he was close to 90. So they were standing on the dock, and they started talking, and they realized that they were going to the same place in America -- into the Lehigh Valley. I don't know why Mr. Zowman was going there -- I mean I don't know who his relatives were. So they made the passage together. Cecil said he just ran all over the ship all the time. They got to America, and they remained friendly. Zowman's name was changed to Salman here, and he worked for a number of years, he got lung cancer a few years after he came here, and he died when Cecil was an early teenager. Fast forward several generations, Cecil's daughter or Mr. Zowman's granddaughter married Sam Kivert's grandson. GE: Oh my goodness. MK: Buddy and Carol Kivert. So now we are related to the Salmans. And then the Salman's married into the Glazier's. So we are sort of -- by marriage -- related to all of them. TF: And then the Colemans. MK: We are related to some of the Colemans. TF: But I can't remember who. Somehow we were never friendly with many of the Bethlehem people. It's the strangest thing. MK: No, they came earlier and as was the habit in many of the immigrants, the earlier ones looked down on the ones that came later. They were more peasant-like. The earlier ones were more well-established. They didn't really want to be so associated with these lowly peasants that came over almost a generation after they did. I think that is a factor. TF: Oh the Coleman's. I don't know if that was a fact, but just that the one wife of one the Coleman's was a snob. Nobody was good enough for her. She really didn't even want to be Jewish. I think that is what it was. People like that! MK: We are also related to a lot of the Coleman's in the Lehigh Valley, as well. Any of these old families, I'm sure you'd find it in any small community, if you go back far enough and they all came over at the same time, how many people did they have to marry anyway? That was an interesting story from the boat. TF: That was the first time I heard that one. MK: Cecil told me that one. TF: Well, you didn't tell me. MK: Oh, I might have, sorry. TF: Maybe you did--you're right. SC: Do you have any memories from childhood that you can share? TF: Well I don't know how it would relate to what you are interested in. As I said, life there was very nice, it was very easy. My parents were known in the community -- they were liked. So I didn't ever have to deal with anti-semitism. MK: I didn't either. TF: That is something I didn't feel. I'm sure it was there somewhere. I know my father was very friendly with the Priest at the Catholic Church. He would go there a lot. Maybe they drank -- I don't know what they did there. I'm just saying that mother played bridge with a lot of the neighbors --so, it was a very nice life. It was a very nice life. I don't have any complaints. I had friends, boyfriends -- they didn't keep me from having boyfriends, or anything like that-- which a lot of people did. They didn't let their children mingle with non-Jewish. I guess my parents felt, why take that away? But, I did marry a Jewish man. MK: I guess the question is, "why did mother and dad move to Allentown?" TF: Oh, that's true. That's right. That's why they moved--.they wanted me to be exposed more. That's right. I forgot that part. And, I understood it wasn't anything they were angry with me about -- they just felt it was a better move for their children. Not just me -- for Maxine, too. MK: And, at the time, most of the Jewish families that lived in Northampton had already started to move to Allentown. TF: Oh, yes, that's right. I think the Roths had moved. MK: Roths had moved and the Levine -- from Levine and Sons - Morris and Helen moved. And, the Weins - Bernie. TF: Oh yes, a lot of their friends had moved. MK: And Bennie and Ann Glazier had built a house in the West End. All the Jewish friends had already moved. My parents didn't really feel the need to move because the factory was there [in Northampton]. He was still active in the factory. TF: He drove to the factory every day from Allentown. SC: So when did they move to Allentown? TF: In my senior year in high school. MK: 1950. SC: When they moved then, where did you live in Allentown? TF: 1137 Lehigh Parkway East. It's still there. It's at the tip of a little hill. It's right at the five points near the Parkway. We were invited to go visit there a few years ago. When we went, we laughed so hard -- what those people did to the house! Naturally, we'd say that! They closed off doors and windows. The little dressing room of mother and dad's room -- they made it into a little reading room. We thought that was so funny! MK: But the kitchen, it was forty years -- it was all the same appliances -- they never changed anything in the kitchen -- it was quite amazing. TF: It was a nice kitchen. MK: After we moved to Allentown - that was in 1950, Tama went to her senior year at Allen High -- which was hard - because all her friends were in Northampton. TF: I played hooky a lot and went back. I'm in the yearbook of Northampton. That's the school I go to for all the reunions -- because I knew everybody as young people. But, there were nice people at Allen -- I made friends with some of the people there--.that was not a problem. What else? MK: Soon after we moved here, our father (during the War Years -- during the 40's), he had the tailor shop during the day and Tama remembers, he also worked for the pants factory at night. TF: In Northampton. MK: The Billera Pants Factory had a government contract to make -- GE: This wasn't his pants factory? This was another pants factory? MK: No, they had a government contract to make army uniforms. If you worked in government, you didn't have to go into the service. He was a little bit old to be drafted at the time. He was in his late 20's when the war broke out. TF: They were drafting -- married men with children and older men. MK: So he went to work at the pants factory at night to avoid having to go into the army. Tama remembers sometimes he would fall asleep sitting on the toilet -- he would work all these jobs, all these hours. SC: But, he learned the pants business MK: And how to do a whole production, he was in charge of production. He was a supervisor. He learned that then. Then after the war, he felt comfortable enough to open his own factory. MK: He worked very hard. What he would do--.he was in the factory by 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning. They would make the goods and very often at the end of the day he would drive to New York to deliver the goods. There were no superhighways then, it was the old 22 -- he would take a load in, deliver it. TF: But, he developed a very good reputation for quick delivery and anything else. Whatever he promised, he made good. I was just reading what mother said in this interview, that he was a "go-getter" -- that's what she called him! MK: He also smoked three packs of cigarettes a day at the time -- in addition to working all hours. Well, when he was 45, in 1954, he had a massive heart attack. Fortunately he survived it. He was in the hospital for six weeks -- that's what they did then. He had to stop smoking. TF: He stopped completely and never smoked again. MK: Yes he did. He did -- he started again -- smoking. TF: He told me he never smoked -- couldn't stand the smell of smoke. MK: That's after the second heart attack. TF: You are right. Go ahead. MK: So he had a heart attack. Randi, her oldest daughter, was about two at the time. So he completely had to change his lifestyle -- which he fortunately did. By this time, Tama's husband - Jules Fogelman -- he was doing something else for a while -- but he came into the factory to learn. TF: He learned, he made little aprons -- he learned how to sew. My husband did. I still have that apron he made when I was pregnant with Randi. MK: I have mine that Arnold made. TF: Oh do you -- that's too funny! MK: Later, I got married in 1960. My husband, Arnold Tanenbaum, was very entrepreneurial and knew that he wanted to go into the business. He was thinking about other things, but my father wanted him to come into the business and it was something that came very natural to him. So he went into the business, too. My father was -- pretty much - able to exit this intense time and effort in the business. SC: But, when he went to New York -- he got to know all the manufacturers? MK: Oh, sure. He knew everybody and they knew him. He had a very good reputation. GE: But he was a contractor -- he didn't have his own brand. TF: Correct. GE: He just made the pants for the label. TF: And cutting. Some factories only did the sewing. We did the cutting and sewing. MK: The whole garment. TF: Not the designing. That was what the brand did. SC: Maybe we should switch over to the business now? GE: Did you want to ask them anything -- in regards to their own education? SC: We didn't really talk about that - your own education, both of you? Did you ever become involved in the business? TF: Well, I became involved in the business when my husband died -- so that was 16 years ago. SC: What was your education? TF: I only went to high school. That's as far as I went. I got married right after high school. SC: What year did you get married? TF: 1952. SC: And that makes sense -- that's the way it was supposed to work back then. TF: Well it was fine for me -- I'm not saying it's for anybody else. I was involved in the business -- to a point. It was very stressful. That's all I can say -- I'm glad it's all over. Do I have to talk about any more? SC: Was your husband in the armed services at all? TF: He was before we got married. SC: So you were a post-war wife in a way -- in '52. TF: It was the Korean War. He didn't go overseas. SC: But you were a post-war wife. That was '45 into the late '50's. That was the culture at the time. TF: If you had a question, I could answer. But I can't think of where to begin. GE: And I'm going to ask you questions about the business. SC: That's fine. I just wanted to put you into the cultural context. It made sense that you went to high school and did you become a housewife then? TF: Oh, yes. SC: That's the culture at that time--.you were supposed to do that, to be a good wife. TF: I wasn't even aware of it -- it's something I liked to do. MK: You worked at Hess's for a year - as a personal shopper. TF: Oh, yes, I forgot about that. I liked that. MK: She was very good at it too. GE: And Maxine, what was your education? MK: When I graduated high school, all I really wanted to do was get married and have children. The person that I loved then, Arnold Tanenbaum, he was in college still, so I went to school - Fairleigh-Dickinson in New Jersey to become a dental hygienist. Which I left after a year -- I didn't like it -- it was too boring. Then he graduated college and so we decided to get married then. I was 19 and he was 22. So we got married, and he went into the service. I was a housewife, and I would type theme papers for people who were going to Muhlenberg and things like that -- in my spare time. Then we went to Georgia for two years where our oldest daughter was born. Came back and Arnold went into the business. I worked at the factory a couple of summers, and I also worked when he was in basic training -- I worked at the factory. Sometimes I did finishing, sometimes I worked in the office. Also, for a while later, when it was Arnold and Jules in the factory, they were having some problems with quality control. And I came in for a while and I walked around and did quality control -- for a couple of weeks in the factory. When I was 38 -- I went to Nursing School to become an RN. I went to the Community College, Arnold was still alive then. I graduated in 1983, and he died a month after I graduated. I became an oncology nurse for a while, and then I remarried. I married Don Klein, and I went back to school to become a nurse practitioner when I was 53, and then I worked for Planned Parenthood for 12 years until I retired. So I have a little association with the factory, but not much, the rest has been in medicine. SC: We are going to the business now. GE: We've already talked a lot about the business, but we are going to continue to have that conversation. Some of these things you've talked about, and we'll just go through it real quickly. In terms of who started the business, a little bit the origins, maybe just to recap and to summarize. TF: Well, our father started the business. Maxine, you were clear about where he started -- underneath the house? MK: I don't know . .. you thought he had an early or a few machines in a garage or somewhere under the house. TF: Maybe the garage thing was behind the bank, as you thought. MK: I remember it was '46 that he was in the bank building then. So part of the factory was in the bank building, but the pressing, the ultimate finishing -- where you put the belts in and all that kind of stuff, and the pressing - was done under our house -- a block up on Main Street. All the garments had to be taken out of the factory when they were finished and brought up to the finishing room. The factory was called Tama Manufacturing. When I was old enough to realize what had happened, I said to my father, "why didn't you name it after me?" He said, "I did, I named it after both of you. It's the first two letters of each of your names." GE: He was very smart! TF: Maybe that was it! MK: Oh, I don't know, it was so funny. I laughed at the time. I understood why he named it that. GE: Just so we understand, at this time did he already give up the tailor shop? MK: Yes. When he started the factory, he gave up the tailor shop because the pressers were then taken over by the factory -- it was part of the factory production. GE: Did he sell the tailor shop? MK: No, I think he just closed it. Because it was right there, he just closed it up and did this. GE: And just converted the machinery that he was using for pressing as a dry cleaner now became part of that area -- the finishing. MK: He probably had one or two other machines there. GE: Now, which manufacturer he was contracting for? And which brands? MK: Yes, right, a lot of different ones throughout the year. I know Derby was the children's line. TF: Then there was the Junior Rite. MK: What was the main one? TF: What was the one with the woman's name? A name that you knew-- MK: Liz Clairborne -- that was later. He made for Liz Clairborne - that was after Arnold and Jugge [nickname of Jules] were already there. The early years were mostly S. M. Elowski and his companies. GE: Tell us -- would you spell the name? The manufacturer that he principally worked with was - his partner was whom? MK: It wasn't a partner -- well actually he had a partner when he first opened his business. It was Jack Waitz. He decided that he needed a partner so when he first opened the factory in the bank, Jack Waitz (which is now -- Waitz -- I think they do -- advertising--) TF: Esther Halperin's brother -- Jack Waitz. Her maiden name was Waitz. GE: Oh My Goodness! Wow! MK: So, Jack Waitz was only a partner for a year or two. I don't even remember him. I don't even remember that he was a partner, I was very little, and I don't remember that name. TF: Evan Picone -- I can think of more, too. MK: That was another one -- he worked for Evan Picone. So, he separated with Jack -- he bought him out after a year. My father always had trouble with a partner because he put so much of himself into it. He thought it wasn't fair -- no one else would ever work as hard as he did. So he just wanted to stay on good terms and end the business. They didn't have a fight or anything. GE: So he was the sole proprietor and he did contract work for -- MK: S.M. Elowski -- something like that. GE: And, it was just for whatever brands S. M. Elowski owned. MK: He worked for him for many years -- maybe until Jugge came in. Then he started to move in other directions. GE: So your father's major customer was S. M. Elowski - until his son-in-law joined the business. Do you know if for S. M. Elowski, your father was his sole supplier? MK: No. He had others, he was large -- he was in New York. GE: Even after when your husband entered the business and later when your husband (Tama) entered the business, did his relationship with S.M. Elowski last for a very long time? TF: I think so. MK: As long as S. M. was involved -- S. M. was old -- older than my father. He was a real pioneer. TF: I think he was still when Jugge came in -- he was still involved. MK: I think so, too. Then they moved--.there were other brands. Those brands were sort of fading a little bit. Other brands were coming up. TF: They were getting more offers from other companies. So he diversified. Then my husband decided to put all his eggs in one basket. MK: That was after Arnold died, that was much later. TF: Right. MK: In the early days they worked for Evan Picone, Liz Clairborne, and then they got Alfred Dunner. GE: Bobbi Brooks? MK: Pandora. GE: Were all these manufacturers in New York? MK: Yes, and then they got Alfred Dunner. GE: Oh! MK: Alfred Dunner made a different kind of pants than what they normally would make. They always made pants with a set in waistband and a set zipper. But, Alfred Dunner made a pull on pants, which involved slightly different machinery. GE: And, this was about what time period? TF: Well, my mother-in-law was still alive. She's the one who introduced them. MK: Oh, really, I didn't know that. That's interesting. GE: And not surprisingly, because Alfred Dunner was for a little more mature woman. TF: It really made a hit -- it was a big money-maker. MK: Actually, it eliminated a lot of the operators that were zipper setters. At that time before Arnold died (my husband was already in the business, so that was in the early'60's). GE: At this time they were already producing for Alfred Dunner. MK: Right. But, they still needed to keep other firms that made the tailored pants so they wouldn't lose their very skilled operators for the other garments. My father believed it and Arnold and Jugge, at the time too, that you couldn't put your eggs in one basket. Because you never know when someone goes out of this business. So they always worked for a lot of different people. Who did Uncle Paul work for? He used to come in as an inspector. TF: That's right. You'll have to ask Aunt Evie. MK: My mother's brother-in-law used to be up in Hazleton. He had been a mattress maker. That went out of business, and he started to get into the garment industry. He started working for a company, and he was a supervisor to check quality. He ended up coming into our factory because we were making things for the company he was working for. TF: Was it someone up in the coal region? MK: No, it was in New York. He was there, too. During the '70's, the manufacturing began to go to China and Mexico. GE: To China that early? MK: In the '70's the factory had trouble getting stuff made there, so they decided to diversify. They opened another factory called Penn Garment that opened in Allentown. They made very specific things that I don't remember. GE: Separate from Tama Manufacturers? MK: Yes, but the three of them were owners. My father, Jugge and Arnold were owners of that. Also they got a new piece of machinery from Sweden, called Eton. They took another building behind the factory to install this machinery. It was a conveyor system that would bring the garment from one operator to another, so you wouldn't have to have somebody moving the garments all over. TF: It was supposed to be more efficient. MK: They did that. That was kind of a big deal. There was someone who pretty much just ran the Eton production. TF: How did we get involved with Ed Posner? MK: Eddie Posner had a factory, and he lost his factory. Her family was in the garment also - Beth. We were very friendly with Ed. Arnold was very friendly with Eddie. When we opened the Penn Garment factory, which I think was on Stefko Boulevard. I think that was where it was. Eddie agreed to run it. He ran that factory for them. GE: Do you know what this factor produced? MK: Ladies pants. When Arnold died, Eddie bought that factory and paid us out over the years, until it was paid off and then it went under, because there was too much competition. So right before Arnold died, of course he didn't know he was going to die, because he died very suddenly. He decided, he and Jugge . . . Jugge decided that he wanted out of the business. TF: To retire. MK: So they decided to--.what did they have a buy-out or something? TF: Oh yeah, that's how it was set up. MK: Arnold was going to buy Jugge's portion and just own it individually. He knew it had to be completely restructured. We had a lot of people working there for the last 30-40 years that were earning a lot of money, and they were not really doing very much and had to be let go. He knew he didn't have the heart to do it and neither did Jugge. TF: Oh No. MK: They hired somebody else to restructure - someone who was a little harder and that was Sid Gross. Sid Gross had a factory that had been "Bee Line" and his factory went under. Arnold had made arrangements to meet with Sid on August 8, 1983. Sid was supposed to come to the factory, and they were going to have a meeting -- or maybe it was the 9th. In the meantime, our oldest daughter, Jill, was going to school at Drexel, and she was doing an internship at Tama Manufacturing. She was learning "time study" and she had a real interest in the factory. GE: So was she doing industrial engineering? MK: She ultimately switched to that. SC: What's her name? MK: Jill, and now it's Goodman. She married Bob Goodman. SC: And that was 1983? MK: Yes. On August 8 -- the day before he was supposed to meet with Sid, he didn't feel well and Jill took him to the hospital, and he died in the emergency room from a massive heart attack. The next morning, I get a call from Sid Gross -- an angry call, around 11:00 in the morning. "Where is Arnold? I had a meeting with him, and he's not here--" Sid was just what we needed at the factory at the time. I had to tell him, I said, "I'm sorry, he can't make it, he died." Well, Sid was devastated. So, what happened at that time was that the papers were on the lawyer's desk for Jugge to sign, and for Arnold to sign so Jugge would be bought out. They were never signed. Jugge owned the factory. Arnold wasn't there. Jugge didn't want to own the factory. Fortunately, Sid came in, and he was perfect. And then your son, Mark, came back ; he was living in California at the time. He came East to work in the factory. TF: Just to work. He didn't want to take it over. MK: It wasn't anything that Mark was really excited about. TF: No, actually when he came back he didn't go right to the factory. He'd come up and visit sometimes and the people there said why doesn't Mark come in and start working there. MK: What Jugge decided to do then, which was very good for him and the right thing to do and it helped everything else -- was to just go with Alfred Dunner. Because Alfred Dunner was doing all of their production in America. They wanted a quick delivery and good control, it was an easy garment to make. So Jugge wisely decided, we're just going to do this -- I don't really want to do this -- we're just doing to do what's easy. Well, Alfred Dunner exploded! Jugge couldn't even handle all the production there, so he started to contract out to other factories. They kept 3-4-5 other factories going -- Bernie Filler's factory. GE: Were they all local ones? MK: Yes. GE: Who were the different ones? MK: Bernie Filler, he had Blue Mountain. GE: Palmerton with Di Paolo -- he did a lot of the work. He did Chaps. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Tama Fogelman and Maxine Klein, August 7, 2013
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Maxine Kline and Tama Fogelman talk about how their father, Saul Kivert, became a tailor at sixteen years old to help support his family when Saul’s father, a tailor, had a nervous breakdown. During World War II, Saul worked at a pants factory and learned the business. After the war, Saul started Tama Manufacturing-- a tailored women’s pants company.
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LVTNT-24
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2013-08-07
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Title
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
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Martin Goldstein
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5.4 July 16, 2013 Martin Goldstein, July 16, 2013 LVTNT-03 1:33:33 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Martin Goldstein Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 GoldsteinMartin_20130716 1.0:|29(2)|56(14)|77(11)|102(3)|119(10)|134(12)|155(2)|182(9)|201(10)|220(14)|243(15)|264(2)|281(12)|296(3)|313(10)|338(10)|359(11)|380(11)|401(2)|420(6)|449(14)|474(3)|499(8)|518(2)|535(5)|562(4)|587(7)|608(4)|635(4)|650(8)|673(7)|692(7)|709(15)|730(17)|757(13)|780(19)|799(4)|816(16)|839(5)|864(5)|885(3)|902(6)|919(8)|942(15)|967(6)|984(5)|1009(6)|1032(10)|1059(9)|1078(11)|1097(16)|1116(2)|1137(15)|1160(17)|1187(4)|1210(3)|1239(10)|1260(8)|1277(16)|1304(15)|1337(5)|1356(16)|1385(3)|1406(2)|1433(8)|1454(7)|1479(4)|1498(13)|1529(15)|1552(9)|1573(5)|1600(13)|1629(6)|1654(12)|1683(13)|1706(14)|1743(8)|1764(7)|1801(7)|1826(6)|1855(11)|1878(9)|1899(2)|1918(11)|1945(4)|1962(2)|1985(8)|2014(11)|2041(3)|2080(2)|2119(4)|2150(5)|2191(5)|2202(4) 0 https://youtu.be/FV3g13IKz5U YouTube video 0 Introduction—Martin Goldstein SC: Today is July 16th, and this is an interview with Martin Goldstein, and interviewers are Susan Clemens-Bruder first, and then Gail Eisenberg, on the Garment and Textile Industries. And I might be asking you some questions that seem sort of as if I should know the answers or whatever, but for the future, that’s why we want to get everything down on the- on the tape.
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 ; MG: Yes, I understand.
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 ; SC: First of all I’d like to have you put yourself in your own personal content. What’s your full name?
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 ; MG: Martin Goldstein.
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 ; SC: Okay. And where and when were you born?
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 ; MG: I was born in New York, in 19- in August 22nd, 1925.
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 ; SC: Oh. And where in New York? What- Do you remember your address?
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 ; MG: Yes, yes I do—only because my mother kept talking about it. Martin Goldstein, let’s see, 555 Green Avenue, Brooklyn, New York. 0 74 Martin's Education in Allentown, PA SC: So you lived there, what was your educational history?
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 ; MG: I graduated high school. 
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 ; SC: Okay. Where did you go to elementary school, junior high school, and high school?
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 ; MG: I went- I went to Raub Junior High School and then Allentown High School, and that’s- that was the extent of my education. 0 93 1927: Family Moves from Brooklyn, NY to Allentown, PA to Work at Arcadia Knitting Mills SC: When did you move to Allentown from Brooklyn?
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 ; MG: Well let’s see, I was born in [1925]—1927.
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 ; SC: So your family moved. Did they- Did they move to change businesses? Did they move for another reason? To join family?
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 ; MG: They moved- They moved because the- the business- they had a job- They had a job at Arcadia Knitting Mills. And they were five brothers, and they decided that is was- They had quite a business, and they decided that it would be better to build in Allentown, where labor was cheaper. So they moved- Came- They came here—I guess that’s- I guess that’s in... They built- They built the Arcadia Knitting Mill at 8th and Pittston St. It’s an L-shaped building, which still stands today—five stories high. 0 165 Martin's Education (cont'd) SC: So you went, first of all, to elementary school here? You were two when you moved?
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 ; MG: Yes.
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 ; SC: And- And would you repeat what elementary school you went to?
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 ; MG: I went to Raub Junior High School, and then went to Allentown High School, at that time. It’s Allen today, but Allentown at that time. 
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 ; SC: And did you have a particular interest in high school?
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 ; MG: No, I just the regular- the regular general curricula- curriculum.
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 ; SC: Did you do any educational work beyond high school?
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 ; MG: No, nothing else. 0 205 Early Work Experiences SC: And also, where have you worked from the- your very first job, whether it was a paperboy or whatever, your very first job all through your life?
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 ; MG: Very first job was when—before the malls—I worked at the- the- for example hat stores. You know, the old lady hat stores? Not old lady—ladies hat stores. 
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 ; SC: In olden times?
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 ; MG: In olden times, right. And just like a stock boy, I made—you’re going to laugh—it’s maybe 18-20 cents an hour, that was good at that time.
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 ; SC: Do you remember how old you were when you started working there?
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 ; MG: I was probably 16.
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 ; SC: And after working there, when did you leave the hat store?
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 ; MG: Oh from there, let me see—what did I do? I worked at like an upholstery place—Lang’s Upholstery—for some time, and over there- Well there was different odd jobs, and I did different things, it’s all depended. 0 470 Family History So can I ask you some questions about your own family background? So what do you know about your parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents, any- as far back as you know? Where they were born?
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 ; MG: Well my father- my father was born in Russia and my mother in Poland.
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 ; GE: And their names?
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 ; MG: And their names were Morris and Sarah. I believe what he did—see, this is some of the—I believe he moved, he must have moved to Poland later on, and he was with my- He met my mother at about the age of 14. 
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 ; SC: So they relocated from Russia to Poland.
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 ; MG: And she was- Yeah. She was working in an ice cream parlor, and they courted for about 4 years, you know. He says, “I fell in love with her because she was always laughing. I’d introduce her to somebody,” he says, “and she walked away laughing. You just couldn’t- I just couldn’t- She was such a happy person.” Actually, that followed throughout her life. She was great among all of us—to help us out.
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 ; SC: Did they come to the United States together?
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 ; MG: Yes, they did. They were born—I don’t know how true it is—but they always said their birthday was April 20th, 1898. 0 977 Father & ; Uncle's Employments in the Arcadia Knitting Mills (cont'd) MG: The Reinharts asked my father and uncle to join them in the new building in Allentown. The Arcadia Knitting Mill became the second largest knitting mill in the US. The knitting mill in Pittston, NJ was the largest, so... It didn’t mean anything to them because they were workers, and that was before the Union. As you might expect, wages were low at the time. My father and uncle, both foreman, made 10 cents an hour more than the other workers. There were like I said no unions, so they paid what they wanted. But what he had- The good thing was that foremen were not laid off, so I never knew there was a- a Depression. You could understand to me there was always food on the table. I also knew because I heard them discuss the budget at the end of the week how we are going to make things go. But they always managed. And one thing he said we’re going to do was have a vacation. We went away to the mountains one year and the shore the next and it was always- There was always, always good times.
 ; 
 ; SC: So your dad was a foreman?
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 ; MG: Yeah, he was a foreman and my uncle was, too.
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 ; SC: Both of them. And were they foreman because of working so well in New York and then being invited down? 
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 ; MG: Right, that’s why they came, yeah, right. 0 1134 1940: End of Arcadia Knitting Mills MG: My dad and uncle received unemployment compensation after the business closed.
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 ; SC: When did it close?
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 ; MG: It closed, let me see, 1940- About 1940. For a couple of years they had a Victory Garden. You know? And it was time to get a job and they decided to go into the business.
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 ; SC: So during the war, they had a Victory Garden, during World War II?
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 ; MG: During the war, they had a Victory Garden. Before that the other people, you know, when you were laid off you had nothing—you had to go for, I forget, what was it called at the time? There was a name for that. 
 ; 
 ; SC: Well, it would be—not unemployment—insurance, at that time. 
 ; 
 ; MG: No, it wouldn’t be, it wouldn’t be. It’d be some kind of aid you’d get. A lot of people were ashamed of this, they figured this was wrong, yet there were no jobs. 0 1249 Family History (cont'd) SC: So, when—just back up, because we’ll go into the business- more of the business questions a little bit later, but to go back, do you know any other names in your family? Any names, your mother’s maiden name, grandparents on both sides?
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 ; MG: Well let's see, my father, Pop Morris, let’s see, he had- He was one of five children, all came to America, five children. There was Jeanette, May, Francis, and Al. 
 ; 
 ; SC: So that was your mother’s mother’s family?
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 ; MG: I know their Jewish names, too.
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 ; SC: Oh good.
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 ; MG: I don’t know if you need that.
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 ; SC: Sure, sure.
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 ; GE: This is your father, Morris. These are his siblings?
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 ; MG: Yeah, right. Morris’s name was Moshe, and Jeanette was Shandyl. May was Malkeh. M-A-L-K-E-H. And Francis was Frumeh, and Al was Avraham. It was Abraham, but at that time- 
 ; 
 ; GE: That’s the Yiddish name.
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 ; MG: At that time he tried not to- not to- He was in the gold business of some type. A gold portion studio, he made gold inlays and things like that. 0 2012 Martin's Relationship to the Jewish Community: Perspective on Change, Personal Involvement, and Encounters with Anti-Semitism SC: So what was the Jewish community like when you were young? And how has it changed over time?
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 ; MG: Well, first of all, there were- Most of the Jewish people knew each other pretty well. You knew all the Jewish people. It was, the Temple was small – we had a small Temple at 12th and Walnut St. And around 1950 they decided to build that temple, a big temple.
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 ; SC: Just for the record, what Temple was that? 
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 ; MG: Temple Beth El. 
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 ; SC: Yes. So you went to the old Temple Beth El?
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 ; MG: Yes, from a place that was like a twin house, for maybe a hundred whatever it was, it could hold a hundred people or so, to a, well, a very large temple. 
 ; 
 ; SC: Do you know the address of the original Temple?
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 ; MG: I would say 12th and Walnut Street, the corner of- 
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 ; SC: 12th and Walnut Street, at the corner. 
 ; 
 ; GE: So not 12th and Chew—12th and Walnut?
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 ; MG: 12th and Walnut, definitely 12th and Walnut. 
 ; 
 ; SC: And then-
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 ; MG: Right down the street was the Funeral Home—Bachman, Bachman Funeral Home. At the time, there were no other Jewish funeral people, you know. So that’s where- He took care of the burials. 0 2972 Growing Freedom and Integration of the Jewish Community in the Broader Allentown Community SC: You mentioned a little bit how the Jewish community has changed over time, being more cohesive in the early years, and then maybe even more tight now but in a different way. But has it changed in any other way?
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 ; MG: I think in general that people are freer today than before so I don’t think you’re defensive like you had to be in those days. I belong to the Mora Club, Men of Retirement Age, and I may be the only Jewish person, probably the only Jewish person who ever worked there- that ever joined. But it’s a nice organization, men and any- I feel- I feel comfortable around the Christian people as well as- and I think that’s pretty much the norm today. It was different then. See it’s- It’s not acceptable today. 0 3050 Goldstein Family's Relationship with other Jewish Families in the Community SC: [W]hat families were you friendly with in the Jewish community? Like the Mishkins?
 ; 
 ; MG: Families I- Like I said, my mother and dad, and my aunt and uncle were pretty much- They went out together. A good time was a Saturday night movie, you know, that’s what you did. Every week. It was fifty cents—it was probably cheaper in the early years, it was less than that. And the way- What they did- What we did at weekends, now that I think of it, went on picnics. My mother would pack up a cooler, you know, with all the sandwiches and all the- My- My mother, my father, my sisters, and their husbands, in the early years, and some of them, before they had children, and sometimes after they had children. They were all small. We would go to Cedar Beach or- Not Cedar Beach, Lehigh Parkway a lot. Yeah. And picniced. We’d get a table early and that- that- that was it. That’s a good time.
 ; 
 ; SC: Did- As you got older, and- and in the decades since the ‘80s, have you been friendly with different families yourself?
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 ; MG: Me? Well I had a friend- I was pretty- I wasn’t really a big social bug. I was very interested in the Friendship Circle in recent years, I mean the last 15 years or so, and that seems to be one of my big interests. And I always enjoyed going to the Center and being around people. 
 ; 
 ; SC: So were there any specific families-?
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 ; MG: The friend- The friend actually- Like I said my mom and dad, aunt and uncle, they were together all the time. And I don’t think they looked for any outside, too much of that. So we didn’t- They didn’t socialize in- like some people do. It was pretty much private. But myself, I had a friend, Irvin Jacobson, for many years. And we were together, we went around, we went whatever it was, on vacation in different places. 0 3220 Walgo Knitting Mills: ~1946-1972 GE: Okay so now what we are going to do is talk a little bit about the business. And if I understand correctly, and you tell me, I think you said it was around 1943, right, that your dad and his brother-in-law went into the business. So do you want to just tell me whatever you know about that, around 1943. So it was your dad, Morris, and what’s his brother-in-law’s name again?
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 ; MG: Joseph- Joseph- Joe Wald.
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 ; GE: Walz. W-A-L- How do you spell his last name?
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 ; SC: D-S?
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 ; MG: W-a-l-d.
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 ; GE: Wald. W-A-L-D. Okay. And so the two of them had been already working for many years as foremen at Arcadia, and now they went into their own business.
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 ; MG: They went into their own business. 0 3310 Struggling Businesses Post-WWII MG: Walgo Knitting Mills. They went- They went on- They went to New York for business, but when they went into business, at that time... it was- it was- the picnic was over. This is what they were told when they went to New York. Forget about the old people, people that had ran the business years ago, had nothing, gotten- During the war, they were making money like- They get very wealthy, that’s it, because there was no price- You could work for almost any price you wanted.
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 ; GE: Right, the demand was so high.
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 ; MG: The demand was so high, it was- it was- it was big. But people didn’t have the machines. They were making war machines and everything else so everything stopped, other people went into the service, they just- they just didn’t have it. But after the war, it stopped almost immediately, because people started to produce and then the price was low and if you were a contractor like my father, they would go there and all, and they always said, they used the expression, “Suck on a herring.” That means this is all I can give you. 0 3441 Working as a "Contractor" in the Textile and Needle-Trade Industry GE: And when you say they were a “contractor”, tell us a little bit more what that means. 
 ; 
 ; MG: A contractor means you don’t buy the- you don’t buy- you don’t make the goods, you sell it—you do it for somebody else. You’re making- You make a- Someone will send you the yarn, instead of you buying the yarn, they will send it in—and say I need 5,000 lbs. on such and such a machine, and- or they could send in 50,000 lbs. And you made different things, you made cotton knit goods, like flat goods—t-shirts, stripes, like you’re wearing right there. And then there is also rib cloth, which is the underwear cloth, on the- on the ribbed machines, and that ran on a cable. There was- Each machine was on a belt run by a big motor and it ran on a long line of machines, old-fashioned machines. Later on there were people who went in and bought individual machines. But at that time, they ran on the old style belt machines. 0 3672 Contracting for Seco Mills GE: Do you know who their customer was, who they were a contractor for?
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 ; MG: Only too well. They had- They got connected with Seco Mills, S-E-C-O, and they were a big- These guys were two big, two salesmen, you know, and they ran a pretty good operation. But they had enough work to keep you busy. And my uncle, instead of being a little bit of a gambler and going with maybe less work and harder to find work, but could advance you a lot better, a little easier, they didn’t take that route and they stuck with the big guy, and the big guy never paid because he’s always giving- he says, “You always got work, you don’t have to worry.” You know what I mean? Keep the- Keep the machines running.
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 ; GE: Right, I see. So it was a very, very small margin you’re saying. They always kept the price low.
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 ; MG: Right, they didn’t pay- They didn’t pay enough, they squeezed you on that, because you got the work. 
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 ; GE: Right, right. There was always work, but- but-
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 ; MG: So my uncle was one of the ones- always the one who insisted, “Stay with them, you’ll always have work, you have to work.” Well okay. 0 3755 Martin's Father and Uncle—Partnership and Responsibilities GE: And with your father and your uncle, which one took care of what part of the business? Did they always work together with decisions or-?
 ; 
 ; MG: Actually, my uncle ran- he ran the office and then he ran certain machines. My dad ran Tompkins machines, which is a special machine, it’s made for baby- good for like terry cloth and soft goods like baby cloth. It’s a very fine type of machine. Not- Very, very few people in Allentown used the Tompkins machines. But they bought them and my father took care of them.
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 ; GE: So they were kind of specialized? The Tompkins, it was like a special-
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 ; MG: Well that was special—different than most people made. First of all it was a slow producer and they never wanted to pay the amount of money because it was, you know- Even though everything is relative, if it takes longer to make you got to get paid more. But if you’re a manufacturer, you can call the price a little better. You know. But it’s- Anyway, that’s contracting, and we always- we made a decent living, we were able to...
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 ; GE: And so they were in business for how long? 
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 ; MG: Oh my God. They were-
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 ; GE: They started around 1946-47, how long did they keep the business until?
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 ; MG: Maybe 35 years or so. 0 3885 Changing Addresses to Inexpensively Expand Production Capacity at Walgo MG: They borrowed money from the bank and bought two knitting machines. The mill was in operation twenty-four hours.
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 ; GE: Oh. So they were- They were around the clock?
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 ; MG: Each partner alternating twelve-hour shifts, and without making too much money, because how much could you produce? But, that’s what they did. And the machines knitted flat goods used for t-shirts, striped and plain. Offered a little more space by Mr. Lang, they purchased rib machines, used mostly for underwear.
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 ; GE: So- so they rented space by- from Mr. Lang initially?
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 ; MG: Yes, you’re right, the upholstery place. Naturally, needing more space for yarn, the basement which was partially dirt filled, Mr. Lang offered to give it- the place rent free if you dig it out. So he was good, he did them a favor, he did them a favor. So we hired a guy, he wheelbarrowed all the dirt out, then hauled it away, got rid of it. 
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 ; GE: And now they had it, rent free.
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 ; MG: They had it rent free for the yarn, because it was small and the amount they could handle- They used to tell them, used to tell the- the- the contractor- the boss- the manufacturer not to send in too much yarn. 0 4160 Employees/Unions GE: How many people worked there, about?
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 ; MG: Oh my God. Sometimes it’s been- In that place they had about 60, 65, 70 people.
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 ; GE: Okay. And that was let's say at the peak.
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 ; MG: Yeah. The last move- Well around the clock. 
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 ; GE: Right right right, that’s right.
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 ; MG: But they all- They ran twelve-hour shifts for a lot of the people—the better knitters. Because you don’t have to keep people and pay overtime for people that aren’t producing like those that are able to better- do more. You know, handle more machines. Anyway, a good knitter- They got paid not quite what Union wages were, but they got twelve hours. So when the Union came in with the idea of unionizing, naturally, that’s what their- They’d come in real early and get the workers before they got in the door—there was a lot of unrest. Because the- Those that wanted the Union were probably a lesser able to do some of the work. Anyway, they fought it off and they never had a Union. 0 4272 Martin's Role at Walgo Knitting Mills GE: Okay. And Martin, what were- what did you do in the- in their business?
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 ; MG: I was in the shipping.
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 ; GE: You were in shipping. Okay, okay.
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 ; MG: Yeah, I was in shipping, receiving and shipping, and I never had enough help. 
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 ; GE: Yeah, well I think that’s how it goes!
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 ; MG: That’s how it goes. Never had enough help. 0 4292 1972: Walgo Knitting Mills is Sold to George Krasnov MG: So the last move was at 201 East Hamilton Street, the last move, before it was sold in 1972 to George Krasnov.
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 ; GE: Okay, so it was sold in 1972. So they were in the business it sounds like about 25 years? Does that sound about right?
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 ; MG: Could be, yeah, yeah, yeah. 
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 ; GE: Because they started a little bit after WWII and went to 1972.
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 ; MG: Right. George Krasnov, a former partner of Surefit Slipcovers.
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 ; GE: Okay, so he- So, so- So George Krasnov, did he leave Surefit, or did this become part of Surefit?
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 ; MG: No there was a- There was a- The father died and then you know there’s children and children’s children, so what happened, they broke up and he was left out. And I guess there was some kind of payout, but they never spoke. There was a lot of very- In a business, that’s what happens. 0 4399 Goldstein and Wald Family Members Work for New Owner of Walgo Knitting Mills Until the Business Fails MG: My father, my dad, uncle, and myself worked for George after he bought it. 
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 ; GE: Wait a minute, did you say- Your father? Oh, yeah. You, your father, and your uncle all worked for Goerge for a while, I see. 
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 ; MG: Well that was because- When he bought it, when George bought it. Now what happened- My uncle was loafing around—you wouldn’t believe it. He was okay in the beginning but then he sort of didn’t care. Well, I said to my father, “George is not going to take this.” So what happened? He laid him off. He thought that my father would go too, but it didn’t happen that way. My father was running these Tompkins machines, and it was a good thing at the time. Anyway, my uncle stayed for two years, my dad for three, and me for five years, until he closed- And he had to close because of poor business. He called me in the office and he was crying and he said that I’d have to give it up. He says, “I’m sorry, but…” They- He had some good years. 0 4490 Martin Runs the "Matching Machine" at a Firm that Makes Suits GE: So did you retire at that time? When- when-
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 ; MG: No, I didn’t retire. Oh yeah, when he closed it. 
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 ; GE: When he closed.
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 ; MG: Yeah, but then I- Then I was- Then I went to different textile places.
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 ; GE: So you continued to do shipping?
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 ; MG: I continued . . not shipping, no, no, I did different things. I was upstairs, I helped with the spreading and different things, and- But the- the people- People were in trouble, the business wasn’t good. So finally I went to a workshop, like a training place, it was on Union Boulevard, I forgot the name of it. 
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 ; GE: Was this a- Was this a training place for people from textiles or just a training place for-
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 ; MG: I think a training place for different work. 0 4770 Relationship Between Owners and Employees of Walgo Knitting Mills GE: How did you feel the relationship was between the workers and the owners?
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 ; MG: That’s- They were- They were- I would say not bad. It was- I couldn’t say they were terrible. They often came and complained. I often heard about it. Things you know that- “This is the worst place to work.” I say, “Any place you work is the worst place.” I told- That’s what I told them. “I worked,” I said, “in other places, too.”
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 ; GE: How do you- So now- Just like you said, a lot of this has disappeared, you know, textiles, there is no more in this area.
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 ; MG: Well price-wise they were- 
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 ; GE: Right, they went to cheaper labor.
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 ; MG: Priced out. That’s what everything happened here. That’s why there is no manufacturing here. What happened with the automobile industry? They’re still doing business. 0 4855 How the Disappearance of the Textile and Needle-Trade Industries Have Impacted the Lehigh Valley and Its Communities GE: How do you think that has affected first the Jewish community, the local Jewish community, and second just the Allentown community?
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 ; MG: Well I think the Jewish community, where before, a young fella knew where he was going to go—so he went off and went to school, and then joined the business, or went right into the business. And he had a good living, because they were thriving, you know, one way or another they were doing pretty well. A lot of them were manufacturers, so they did very well—like Schneider Manufacturer. Irwin Schneider—they had a wonderful business—sewing plant, they had 100 machines, they were unionized. It didn’t matter. They were manufacturers. If you’re union, you know it’s- it’s not always- the union is not going to kill everybody.
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 ; GE: So for the Jewish community, you’re saying, there was a lot of certainty then? That- That it was something that was clear.
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 ; MG: Yeah they had a way- They had a way- A direction to go. And then later on, I guess, for Jewish people, it wasn’t the- the only way out. They went to school, they got a good education, they became doctors, they became engineers, their- Education-wise, that’s- that’s how they did it. 
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 ; GE: Right, right. Good point, right.
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 ; MG: Yeah and what happened, naturally, in the downtown where I originally said I worked Saturdays, changed, became... They opened up malls. In the downtown, every store that was downtown—Williams, Brytes [?], those were the dress shops and hat stores—became- Well, they were closed. And big stores opened up in the malls—department stores. So the little guy was out, the corner store was out, the little guy was- the supermarkets. I’m old enough to see it all. 0 5215 Why the Jewish People Were Over-Represented in the Textile and Needle-Trade Industries GE: [T]he Jews in general were somewhat over-represented in textiles? You know many when they came here worked in textiles. Why do you think that is?
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 ; MG: Well, they came over here carrying machines. 
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 ; GE: Right but why- but why- Did they come over here, did your family come over carrying machines?
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 ; MG: No, they didn’t do any of that. With these I’m talking about sewing machines. If you went into manufacturing at that time, if you wanted a job and had a machine, especially if you did it, it was different!
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 ; GE: You could do it I guess even in your little apartment or-
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 ; MG: Well- Well- You could do it even in their place. That’s right—even in their place. And I think today, believe it not, there are Syrians.
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 ; GE: That’s what I hear.
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 ; MG: You heard that? They have little spots and they’re contracting at a- They have no overhead. So they can- they can make the stuff at a- And guess what? I think the government knows about it and they won’t even bother them. They are off the street, they’re not collecting unemployment. And if they are, they get double. We had a guy who did that and the- the- the unemployment agency came in and took him right off the job.
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 ; GE: So what do you think made the textile industry appealing to the Jewish immigrants?
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 ; MG: I think it was easy, it was something you could- It was a lot of work. It was- And also, it looked like- I mean, I don’t know if I have the answer to that, but it looked like they were able to get started without too much trouble. They had the- They had the machine, they had the way to get in there. 0 5570 Goldstein Family Values SC: What did your family value most, your extended family? These are sort of filmy questions. These are thought questions.
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 ; MG: Live a clean, honest life, I think, is very very important. Not- My mother always told me, “Don’t come home with a policeman.” I said , “I’m safe once he takes me home, Mom.” She didn’t wanna see me come- come home with a policeman. That to her was… 
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 ; SC: That’s great. 0 MovingImage Martin Goldstein talks about how his father and uncle came to America with their families, initially worked in New York in a textile mill, then moved to Allentown to work at Arcadia Mills, a large knitting mill. Martin’s father and uncle were foreman at the factory. The mill operated 24 hours per day, each man was a foreman of a twelve hour shift. Then in the late 1940s, after World War II, Martin’s father and uncle started their own knitting mill named Walgo Knitting. They were contractors for Seco Mills until they sold the business in 1972. Interview with Martin Goldstein, July 16, 2013 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is July 16th, and this is an interview with Martin Goldstein, and interviewers are Susan Clemens-Bruder first, and then Gail Eisenberg, on the Garment and Textile Industries. And I might be asking you some questions that seem sort of as if I should know the answers or whatever, but for the future, that's why we want to get everything down on the- on the tape. MARTIN GOLDSTEIN: Yes, I understand. SC: First of all I'd like to have you put yourself in your own personal content. What's your full name? MG: Martin Goldstein. SC: Okay. And where and when were you born? MG: I was born in New York, in 19- in August 22nd, 1925. SC: Oh. And where in New York? What- Do you remember your address? MG: Yes, yes I do--only because my mother kept talking about it. Martin Goldstein, let's see, 555 Green Avenue, Brooklyn, New York. SC: Brooklyn. MG: That's- That's strange, I don't know how I remember that -- because she always talked about it. SC: So you lived there, what was your educational history? MG: I graduated high school. SC: Okay. Where did you go to elementary school, junior high school, and high school? MG: I went- I went to Raub Junior High School and then Allentown High School, and that's- that was the extent of my education. SC: When did you move to Allentown from Brooklyn? MG: Well let's see, I was born in [1925]--1927. SC: So your family moved. Did they- Did they move to change businesses? Did they move for another reason? To join family? MG: They moved- They moved because the- the business- they had a job- They had a job at Arcadia Knitting Mills. And they were five brothers, and they decided that is was- They had quite a business, and they decided that it would be better to build in Allentown, where labor was cheaper. So they moved- Came- They came here--I guess that's- I guess that's in... They built- They built the Arcadia Knitting Mill at 8th and Pittston St. It's an L-shaped building, which still stands today--five stories high. SC: So you went, first of all, to elementary school here? You were two when you moved? MG: Yes. SC: And- And would you repeat what elementary school you went to? MG: I went to Raub Junior High School, and then went to Allentown High School, at that time. It's Allen today, but Allentown at that time. SC: And did you have a particular interest in high school? MG: No, I just the regular- the regular general curricula- curriculum. SC: Did you do any educational work beyond high school? MG: No, nothing else. SC: And also, where have you worked from the- your very first job, whether it was a paperboy or whatever, your very first job all through your life? MG: Very first job was when--before the malls--I worked at the- the- for example hat stores. You know, the old lady hat stores? Not old lady--ladies hat stores. SC: In olden times? MG: In olden times, right. And just like a stock boy, I made--you're going to laugh--it's maybe 18-20 cents an hour, that was good at that time. SC: Do you remember how old you were when you started working there? MG: I was probably 16. SC: And after working there, when did you leave the hat store? MG: Oh from there, let me see--what did I do? I worked at like an upholstery place--Lang's Upholstery--for some time, and over there- Well there was different odd jobs, and I did different things, it's all depended. SC: Do you remember where Lang's was? Where it was located? MG: Yeah, he opened up a place at 6th and Lehigh Street. Yeah, that was- that was his place of business. SC: So after Lang's and some of the odd jobs that you did, do you remember any of the odd jobs that you did just to make money? MG: Yeah, I worked at- What was the name of that? "Allentown--" It just doesn't come to me, it doesn't come to me right away, I'm trying to get the name. Well anyway, what they did there, it was like a- It was also woodworking. They made- they made- they made- But more complete. They did I think what's called "American Houses." And over there, I did- I'm going a little blank, I don't know. SC: But it was a woodworking place? MG: Yeah, it was a woodworking place but they also had- I think they were making prefabricated homes. SC: Do you remember about what year that was? Just sort of general decade? MG: Let's see, about what- what year that was, let's see. 19- Probably-- Maybe in the late '30s, just about 1940 maybe. SC: And there- I think there were Sears houses- There are some Sears houses too in Allentown- MG: Sears? SC: Yeah, there were some prefab Sears houses in Allentown, too. MG: I don't know too much about that. SC: I don't think there's too many, but they are out in the West end of Allentown. MG: Right. SC: So any other jobs that you worked until you went into your family's business? MG: No, there were- I didn't- I didn't- I'm really not prepared on my own to tell you everything about myself. SC: That's fine, that's fine. Just, you know, if you remembered, it's fine, if not, don't worry. MG: I- We did have- I can't think, I can't think of that, I didn't prepare on that. SC: That's fine, that's fine. So can I ask you some questions about your own family background? So what do you know about your parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents, any- as far back as you know? Where they were born? MG: Well my father- my father was born in Russia and my mother in Poland. GAIL EISENBERG: And their names? MG: And their names were Morris and Sarah. I believe what he did--see, this is some of the--I believe he moved, he must have moved to Poland later on, and he was with my- He met my mother at about the age of 14. SC: So they relocated from Russia to Poland. MG: And she was- Yeah. She was working in an ice cream parlor, and they courted for about 4 years, you know. He says, "I fell in love with her because she was always laughing. I'd introduce her to somebody," he says, "and she walked away laughing. You just couldn't- I just couldn't- She was such a happy person." Actually, that followed throughout her life. She was great among all of us--to help us out. SC: Did they come to the United States together? MG: Yes, they did. They were born--I don't know how true it is--but they always said their birthday was April 20th, 1898. SC: Do you know about what year they left Poland, Russia, to come? MG: They came to this country--what do I have? Let's see. I think... Do I have it? No, that's when they were in Paris. No, that's when they were married ; this is when Libby was born and so forth. GE: Was Libby born here or there? MG: Libby was born there. GE: Okay, so it's after. MG: She was born- You got it, that's right, you're smart, you got it. She was born 1919. SC: Do you want to read that? Does that talk about your family background? MG: Yeah, I could. My parents, Morris- Morris... They courted, like I said, they courted in 1914, they were married 1918. Libby was born in 1919. Martin, I was born in 1925, and Gloria, 1931. So we're all 6 years apart. My mother, Sarah, told me that her father died when he was 28 years old. Her mother was pregnant with her at the time, so she never saw her father. So this was- So it goes on to say, "growing up without a father, mom's mother had to find work to support the family. So she sold milk, carrying a 5-gallon jug"--you can imagine, 5-gallon jug--"door to door, pouring out portions to each neighbor. My grandmother worked 'til noon, then she taught my mother how to sew. And they sewed 'til 12 o'clock at night." And my mother could use those- on those pedal machines, and she was so good that she could make almost anything. She taught her everything. She- Anybody, anything we wanted, she- we needed, she did for us. I didn't have to worry about shortening pants or whatever. SC: Was your grandmother's husband still alive or was she a widow also? And then- MG: My grandmother- Which grandmother? SC: Sarah's mother MG: Oh Sarah's mother- He was- She was- Yeah he died I think- Well I said he died. SC: At 28. MG: At 28, but she remarried, and they lived in New York for a few years. That's where they spent a lot of their time. Let's see, when did they come here? SC: In 1918, did you say? MG: No, 1919- They came here I would say about 19- 1921. SC: So it was your mother and her mother and the man that she married, another man that she married, before coming here? MG: Yeah, they came- Let me see. Okay, I got more of it. In 1921 my parents came to America. At that time you needed a sponsor to come to this country. The Morrison's, they were uncles of my father and family, and they were the sponsors for both my dad and my uncle and their families. A job at the knitting mill, working 12-hour nights was waiting for them in New York. A job, naturally, was required at that time or you couldn't come here. My mother, father, and sister, Libby came over as the boat- on the boat called the "The Lapland." Dr. Reinhart joined his four other brothers--he even gave up his practice because he was so enticed by the business. SC: Who was Dr. Reinhart? MG: Dr. Reinhart, believe it or not, he was the- One of 5 brothers who- who- who joined, like I said, joined the business now. He was, like I said, enticed by that-- they came here, they built that building at 8th and Pittston Streets. So in 1927, a large L-shaped, five stories building was built in Allentown. At present time, it's an apartment building. This was built by the Reinhart brothers from New York who came here because of cheaper labor. Let's see, what else? SC: And were the Reinhart's your dad's family? MG: No. SC: They were your mother's- That was your mother's- MG: Nobody, nobody, they were no relatives of ours. They were no relatives at all. They just got, you know, to get work, you came from the other country, you were just lucky to get any kind of work, so that's- They weren't educated. My father had just had, maybe, not any formal schooling -- or my mother. So, and that was common at that time. SC: And so after World War I, it was tighter, it was really harder to come here from Europe than it had been before World War I. MG: Well after World War I. Yes, yes. SC: Yeah, after World War I. So that makes so much sense, that you really- that they had to have sponsors, etc., and have a job. MG: The Reinharts asked my father and uncle to join them in the new building in Allentown. The Arcadia Knitting Mill became the second largest knitting mill in the US. The knitting mill in Pittston, NJ was the largest, so... It didn't mean anything to them because they were workers, and that was before the Union. As you might expect, wages were low at the time. My father and uncle, both foreman, made 10 cents an hour more than the other workers. There were like I said no unions, so they paid what they wanted. But what he had- The good thing was that foremen were not laid off, so I never knew there was a- a Depression. You could understand to me there was always food on the table. I also knew because I heard them discuss the budget at the end of the week how we are going to make things go. But they always managed. And one thing he said we're going to do was have a vacation. We went away to the mountains one year and the shore the next and it was always- There was always, always good times. SC: So your dad was a foreman? MG: Yeah, he was a foreman and my uncle was, too. SC: Both of them. And were they foreman because of working so well in New York and then being invited down? MG: Right, that's why they came, yeah, right. SC: Did they ever go beyond foreman in that business? MG: No. You mean personally? SC: Personally, the two of them. MG: Yeah. They, that's- that's- Let me see, do I have--? They were unionized, Arcadia was unionized during the- during the war years. My dad and uncle received unemployment compensation after the business closed. SC: When did it close? MG: It closed, let me see, 1940- About 1940. For a couple of years they had a Victory Garden. You know? And it was time to get a job and they decided to go into the business. SC: So during the war, they had a Victory Garden, during World War II? MG: During the war, they had a Victory Garden. Before that the other people, you know, when you were laid off you had nothing--you had to go for, I forget, what was it called at the time? There was a name for that. SC: Well, it would be--not unemployment--insurance, at that time. MG: No, it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be. It'd be some kind of aid you'd get. A lot of people were ashamed of this, they figured this was wrong, yet there were no jobs. SC: And so 1940 was right before World War II started. You know, at '40- MG: In 1941 the war started. SC: Did the business start up again? Did they actually- They went into business for themselves, right after the Victory Garden. Was that in the '40s? MG: Yeah, they called it- They went into the business in 19- I would say '43, was it? SC: During the war. MG: They called the business, "Walgo Knitting." Wald and Goldstein. GE: I'm sorry, say the name again. MG: W-A-L-G-O. Walgo. GE: Walgo. SC: So, when--just back up, because we'll go into the business- more of the business questions a little bit later, but to go back, do you know any other names in your family? Any names, your mother's maiden name, grandparents on both sides? MG: Well let's see, my father, Pop Morris, let's see, he had- He was one of five children, all came to America, five children. There was Jeanette, May, Francis, and Al. SC: So that was your mother's mother's family? MG: I know their Jewish names, too. SC: Oh good. MG: I don't know if you need that. SC: Sure, sure. GE: This is your father, Morris. These are his siblings? MG: Yeah, right. Morris's name was Moshe, and Jeanette was Shandyl. May was Malkeh. M-A-L-K-E-H. And Francis was Frumeh, and Al was Avraham. It was Abraham, but at that time- GE: That's the Yiddish name. MG: At that time he tried not to- not to- He was in the gold business of some type. A gold portion studio, he made gold inlays and things like that. SC: Did he do that in Poland? MG: My father's brother? Yeah. SC: Yeah, in Poland. MG: No, he came to this country and right away, the uncles that helped bring him over here said they- the best thing to do is to go to school, and you'll go to like a dental laboratory. So that was- that was pretty good. That was one of the few people that got a good education. SC: So all of their last names originally was Goldstein. MG: That's right. SC: Okay. How about your mother's maiden name? MG: My mother's maiden name was Surowitz. SC: Can you spell that? MG: S-U-R-O-W-I-T-Z. S-U-R-O-W-I-T-Z. And she- she was one of one, two, three-- I think she was one of six, but her youngest- Her- One of her younger- One of her younger- Her brother died in Europe, and that was a terrible tragedy because he was a young man. So I would say, let's see, she was one of six. GE: And what were those names? MG: Sarah, Paulie, Aaron, Lazar, and Chaya Freidel. That was all we knew her by so I don't know- Sarah's name was Sorah, Sorah Faigel, my mother's. She had a middle name. She always complained, "And why do you- Why I have a middle name? Because when I came on the boat they thought two people were coming on. "So they gave her trouble. She never gave us middle names. She says, "Because of that they had trouble getting her on the boat." Well anyway- SC: And- and- Am I right about the fact that Sarah's mother remarried? Did she remarry? I'm a little confused about that. MG: Yes, Sarah's mother remarried. SC: She did. Was- Was that a different name then Surowitz? MG: Yeah, yeah- Wait a minute. Her name was Surowitz. SC: Was that her second married name, maybe? MG: No, yeah, her- Her name was Surowitz. I never thought of it that way, the second name, but it had to be because she was from the other generation. SC: And- And did her mother have any other- other children by her second husband? You don't know- Do you know his name? MG: No, she had no other children, that was it. SC: No other children and that was it, yeah. So do you know anything about where- Any more about where they lived and worked or where they worked? Any of the family members, uncles, cousins, grandparents, do you know any other jobs that they held? And it's only- You sometimes see patterns, and that's why I'm asking that. MG: Any jobs that- SC: Other members of the family had. One was in dental work and gold, and- Were there any others? MG: Yeah, my mother's brother, he was always- He worked in a hat business. He didn't have his own business, though, he was- They made hats. But he had a business sense and a mind. And he went into- He opened- He bought a grocery store--you know they had the old fashioned corner stores--and he'd build it up and then sell it. He did it a number of times and he made quite a bit of money. Once you build them up and have a good clientele, then things go your way and you made- made out well. SC: And any others that you remember? Any other family members and what they- MG: Yeah, see-- Here's what the problem was, a brother and a sister along with children and grandchildren died in the Holocaust. That's from my mother's side. That was a tragedy. My mother never- She took it very hard. She- She- I can't talk about it. When she looked at the- She used to watch television, and she'd see something, you know, there was always- My dad and I says, "Listen, we want to see it. We're gonna wanna, we want to see it. We want to know what happened." So I never- Whenever I had a chance to look at it I- I did. Thirteen people, and she knew about that, and was- it's heart-wrenching. And the one brother, she said to him before, she says, "I want you to come here, Lazar." He said, "I have a letter business," and he says, "I'm making out well." He didn't know what Hitler had planned. See, in the beginning it wasn't- it wasn't believable. Who could do some of the things he said he would do, just wouldn't- It wouldn't be imaginable. But he did. SC: So in as far as when the people who did come to Allentown--your mother, and your dad's family, some of the brothers that came to Allentown--where did they live in Allentown? MG: You mean my parents? SC: Yeah, your parents- MG: They moved to where Cossie- Remember Cossie Snyder's? GE: Oh, on 7th Street? MG: Yeah, on 7th Street. Right next door, right around there, they built- There was an apartment, they had an apartment. And I- That's when they came to Allentown, I was two years old, so Libby was let's see eight by then. And then they moved to 7th and St. John's, right near the Good Shepherd Home, in an apartment, a corner home. We often pass it. So they started- I think I started first grade there, or something like that, after a few years, and then Jefferson School, we went to over in the East Side ; and then we moved over to Fulton Street, the 300 block, on Fulton Street, 309 S. Fulton. We lived there maybe 35 years and then ended up- And then someone bought our house, so we had to move out. And those were bad years, that- that was around the Depression years, things like that. SC: So you rented then? MG: So we, yeah, so then we- But then we were forced to- My father said we're not going to just move out, we're going to go to a- move into the corner house at Fulton- at Fulton and Fairview. And we lived there, altogether, between the two houses, another 15 years, until we lived maybe 48-50 years over there. We were about- I would say one of the last Jewish people that moved out of the old neighborhood. SC: So you were in the old neighborhood. MG: We were in the old- Where it was little Israel. Where the Jews lived there on 15th, 16th, 17th Street, 18th Street. SC: This is tape 2 and could you start with that, who actually didn't come and who was lost in the Holocaust? MG: My parents--my mother and dad came to-came to America, and her- and her sister and her brother--her sister, Paulie and her brother Aaron, Aharon in Jewish. SC: But the Lazar- MG: And the Lazar and Chaia Freidel and their- their children and grandchildren, whoever, we know- we know- we know a total of about 13, because there were so many years, and they married, and then they- But they were all gone, there was nobody- After the war, there were- there were nobody that were alive, because we would have brought them over. But there was nobody there. There was nobody left--so they- really was bad. SC: So just to talk a little bit more about- You lived down in the old Jewish neighborhood and- for a long time, and were one of the last families to leave. Then you moved to the west- You moved to the west? Could you tell me again what was the address of when you moved west, to west Allentown, further west? MG: What year they moved there, let's see-- I- You mean- moved- moved- SC: Out of the old Jewish neighborhood. MG: Well, we lived there almost all our lives. I'm only here- I'm only here, let's see, 20-- I'm here 26 years. SC: So you stayed down in that area? MG: So I was there, I was there go back 26 years. GE: Until the 1980s? MG: Yeah, 19- 1980s, let me see, I can't figure it out right off hand. SC: Well, just generally, that's fine. So what was the Jewish community like when you were young? And how has it changed over time? MG: Well, first of all, there were- Most of the Jewish people knew each other pretty well. You knew all the Jewish people. It was, the Temple was small -- we had a small Temple at 12th and Walnut St. And around 1950 they decided to build that temple, a big temple. SC: Just for the record, what Temple was that? MG: Temple Beth El. SC: Yes. So you went to the old Temple Beth El? MG: Yes, from a place that was like a twin house, for maybe a hundred whatever it was, it could hold a hundred people or so, to a, well, a very large temple. SC: Do you know the address of the original Temple? MG: I would say 12th and Walnut Street, the corner of- SC: 12th and Walnut Street, at the corner. GE: So not 12th and Chew--12th and Walnut? MG: 12th and Walnut, definitely 12th and Walnut. SC: And then- MG: Right down the street was the Funeral Home--Bachman, Bachman Funeral Home. At the time, there were no other Jewish funeral people, you know. So that's where- He took care of the burials. SC: Do you have any memories of when you were a child in that neighborhood? Any really bright memories? MG: Well, I know we played ball in the street. We played touch football in the street, there was a car here and a parked car there--a car everywhere--but not- not to the extent that you couldn't play. You just, when a car passed by, it wasn't completely a morgue, but it was a lot different than it is today. SC: Did your family have a car? MG: In 1940, my father bought a 1937 Chrysler. SC: And do- MG: That was a big day. He used to walk to work. All the way down to Arcadia Knitting Mill, down 15th Street, to Lawrence Street, Lawrence Street all the way up to where Mack is. And that's where his work was. Walked to work and walked home, it took him 20-25 minutes. Snow, rain, and sleet--he was never too sick to go to work. SC: Do you have any other memories of your father? MG: Yeah, my father-- Well, he was a hard worker and took care of the family the best he could. Like I said, he always wanted to go on vacation, made sure of that. And we often went to New York on weekends for our day- our Sunday excursion. Believe it or not, there was- there were specials. You went on the train the- the- the Lehigh Valley Railroad. One dollar, back and forth to New York. One dollar to go to New York, back and forth. But they filled the train and then your windows were open and they were steam engines. And I had to wear a suit, so I wore long sleeves, white sleeves, and had the window open and it would get black from the soot, from the- But we had great times there because we visited my grandmother. And when she came to visit, my mother's mother says- my mom says, "You come live with us." And just between us, I don't think that my grandmother- my mother really wanted my grandmother to live with us. But she was- there was such- she was such a good person and my grandmother was so nice that- But my grandmother says, "No, an old person doesn't belong with the young- the young people." She was a smart woman, really sharp. So that and she did, she- we went- They had the Bialystoker Home she- GE: Bialystoker. Is that where they were from, Bialystoker? MG: And there was a home in New York named the Bialystoker Home. And we came to visit my grandmother there, you know. She said, "That's the place for me." And she was always happy. So we'd go there, we took her out, they'd go to a- go to a- a cafeteria--well that was something. She had those long stockings and she put a piece of hard bread in those stockings, and my grandmother said, "What are you doing?" She pulled it out, she said, "I brought bread along." She says, "You're going to a--!" And it was a Kosher, in New York. A Kosher, let's say, what kind of a buffet? Not a buffet. SC: Like a Horn and Hardart? MG: Yeah, but it was Kosher. She wouldn't go anywhere else. SC: Do you think she put the bread in her stocking because of being in Europe, you know, for such a long time? MG: Yeah, probably, probably. She looked at her, she didn't even smile, I remember that. I says, "You know," I says, "what- what- what is she doing?" But you know what, they had no money. They- There was no such thing as Saturday night, you go to a movie or something like that. There was no- To her, if they- If the family had enough to eat and everybody was together--my- my- my mother said that the father said there was times when they didn't have enough food, that they would take- Maybe once a week, they would have meat, and cut it up. Portion-wise it really- it wasn't a lot. Because everything- They had no money and everything was expensive. SC: Do you- Did you- Were you involved in the Jewish community when you were a youth? Were you- Did you- MG: Well, I had a- I was Bar Mitzvahed, but I think people were more religious that time, you know? But we always, my dad always, my mother always observed the holidays. And so- What we did was- Passover, she had a- we had a Seder [a ritual feast associated with Jewish holiday of Passover]. And my aunt and uncle--my mother and father, aunt and uncle were pretty much tied together all the time, they always went together. GE: That was your father's brother? MG: My mom- my father's sister. My father's sister, Jeanette- the Walds, Jeannette Wald and Joe Wald, Joseph Wald. SC: Were- Were there any youth activities at- that were connected with the Jewish community at that time? When you were a teenager did you have social activities? Or were you working too hard at that point? MG: You know I'm trying to think about what activities- what activities we had... We went to the- Well the Jewish Community Center, which is at 6th and Chew. We- We often went there. I know that I was a member there. And we'd walk from Fulton Street to all the way down to 6th and Chew to go, take gym. It was $20.00 a year for my membership. SC: So did you play sports? MG: Yeah but I played, you know, intramural basketball and things like that, yeah. And there was swimming at the old Jewish Community Center. Trying to think of what other- Well pretty much- At the Center, or at the Temple, we went- more so than today on a Saturday morning, and- and a Friday night--more so a Saturday. SC: Did you date people in the community? MG: Me? SC: Yes. MG: I didn't do a lot of dating, no. I'm a- I'm a bachelor. I wasn't much of a ladies man. SC: So, anything else you did in your youth for a social life or any other activities? MG: Sounds like we didn't do anything. SC: No, that's fine -- life was slower then. We're all crazy now! MG: That's what it sounds like. SC: No, not at all! Did- Did you- MG: I belonged to B'nai B'rith at that time. And at that time B'nai B'rith was very active. It was nice going to the center or some place, after they moved to the new place--and the old. And that I would say, in general, the Jewish community were, were a lot closer than they are today. Because so many people, an influx of people from all over, maybe they're close in different ways among themselves, but- When they built that new- the new Temple, that was a good thing. SC: The newest Temple? MG: Yeah, the new one that I mentioned before. That- That was- It helped unite a lot of people. GE: The one at 17th and Hamilton? MG: The one at 17th and Hamilton, yeah. SC: But not the one that's- Newest one, yeah. MG: Not this one, right. That was good for years, yeah. Except that they needed more, more space for schooling and things like that, and a newer neighborhood. SC: Did you become involved, a little bit later on, in any other organizations as you got older? Any Jewish organizations, any community organizations? MG: I guess the- Trying to think of- SC: This- And continuing, so Al Goldstein changed his name to "Gold." Was it for business for the fact that he was in- in- MG: No, the idea was at that time Jewish people were very shy about using their name, because it was- It just wasn't a good thing, you know? There was Anti-Semitism and things like that. SC: Did you experience any Anti-Semitism in Allentown at all? MG: Not me personally. I- I was- was always thankful of that. It always sort of scared me. You went around with the idea, always- It something that was in the back of your mind. But the people I was with, I never encountered any, any of that trouble. SC: Were you friends with some of the- MG: My one sister did, when we were- we lived in the old house on Fulton Street, the original house because we lived in two different homes on that street. But she experienced something that- She says one of her neighbors, a young girl, she was maybe 10 years, said, "Take your dirty Jewish paper and take it in the house." So my- She went in crying or something like that, and my mother went and talked to her mother, and her mother didn't want to know anything about it. And I was surprised because, otherwise, I thought she was a nice person. But, that to me, wasn't very sensitive, it wasn't- wasn't nice. So, there was- There was- There were people around me that I saw- You know- But we mostly played ball together and it wasn't too bad. SC: And were the people that had some Anti-Semitism, were they Pennsylvania Dutch--the "dominant" Pennsylvania Dutch--or were they Eastern European? MG: I- It just was anybody that wasn't Jewish, you just didn't know. With the kids, first of all you thought it was going on in the house--you know. "Ethnic favoritism" or something like that. SC: Were you friendly with some of the older families in- in Allentown? Like the Samuels' family--they- they- I think they lived around Hamilton and probably about 17th or 18th. Samuels, you don't remember? MG: No, I don't know, I don't know, I can't think of the Samuels, not off hand? What was his first name? SC: Well there's one--let me think, let me think now-- Abram Samuels? No? MG: No. Senderowitz? SC: Sin-derowitz? MG: Senderowitz. SC: Senderowitz, okay. MG: Yeah. Beryl, everyone said, that's a good catch. Beryl Senderwitz, she lived in a home on Hamilton Street, that big mansion home, that's what I called them, right down from the Temple. Beautiful home. Every once in a while, she made parties. That's the one thing we did have, the Jewish girls often had- Who was it, let me see, I can't think of some of these names. SC: Well if you think of them at some point, let us know, give us a call and let us know. That would be fine. And- Or just you know or we could even come back, if you think of some more, we could come back another time. So how- How do you think- You mentioned a little bit how the Jewish community has changed over time, being more cohesive in the early years, and then maybe even more tight now but in a different way. But has it changed in any other way? MG: I think in general that people are freer today than before so I don't think you're defensive like you had to be in those days. I belong to the Mora Club, Men of Retirement Age, and I may be the only Jewish person, probably the only Jewish person who ever worked there- that ever joined. But it's a nice organization, men and any- I feel- I feel comfortable around the Christian people as well as- and I think that's pretty much the norm today. It was different then. See it's- It's not acceptable today. SC: So you were saying that things have definitely changed, that you worry about relationships outside the Jewish community a little bit. So what- what families were you friendly with in the Jewish community? Like the Mishkins? MG: Families I- Like I said, my mother and dad, and my aunt and uncle were pretty much- They went out together. A good time was a Saturday night movie, you know, that's what you did. Every week. It was fifty cents--it was probably cheaper in the early years, it was less than that. And the way- What they did- What we did at weekends, now that I think of it, went on picnics. My mother would pack up a cooler, you know, with all the sandwiches and all the- My- My mother, my father, my sisters, and their husbands, in the early years, and some of them, before they had children, and sometimes after they had children. They were all small. We would go to Cedar Beach or- Not Cedar Beach, Lehigh Parkway a lot. Yeah. And picniced. We'd get a table early and that- that- that was it. That's a good time. SC: Did- As you got older, and- and in the decades since the '80s, have you been friendly with different families yourself? MG: Me? Well I had a friend- I was pretty- I wasn't really a big social bug. I was very interested in the Friendship Circle in recent years, I mean the last 15 years or so, and that seems to be one of my big interests. And I always enjoyed going to the Center and being around people. SC: So were there any specific families-? MG: The friend- The friend actually- Like I said my mom and dad, aunt and uncle, they were together all the time. And I don't think they looked for any outside, too much of that. So we didn't- They didn't socialize in- like some people do. It was pretty much private. But myself, I had a friend, Irvin Jacobson, for many years. And we were together, we went around, we went whatever it was, on vacation in different places. SC: Or as they say nowadays, "you hung with him." MG: I hung with him, that's right! Yeah, you hung out. SC: So I'm going to stop now and I'm going to switch over to Gail. GE: Okay so now what we are going to do is talk a little bit about the business. And if I understand correctly, and you tell me, I think you said it was around 1943, right, that your dad and his brother-in-law went into the business. So do you want to just tell me whatever you know about that, around 1943. So it was your dad, Morris, and what's his brother-in-law's name again? MG: Joseph- Joseph- Joe Wald. GE: Walz. W-A-L- How do you spell his last name? SC: D-S? MG: W-a-l-d. GE: Wald. W-A-L-D. Okay. And so the two of them had been already working for many years as foremen at Arcadia, and now they went into their own business. MG: They went into their own business. I might have some notes on that. GE: Sure, you can take your time. MG: Where are we at? The business? GE: Yeah, so it would be about 1943 that they started the business. And what was the name? MG: Walgo. GE: Walgo. Okay. And what were they making? MG: You mean-? GE: They were a knitting mill. MG: Walgo Knitting Mills. They went- They went on- They went to New York for business, but when they went into business, at that time... it was- it was- the picnic was over. This is what they were told when they went to New York. Forget about the old people, people that had ran the business years ago, had nothing, gotten- During the war, they were making money like- They get very wealthy, that's it, because there was no price- You could work for almost any price you wanted. GE: Right, the demand was so high. MG: The demand was so high, it was- it was- it was big. But people didn't have the machines. They were making war machines and everything else so everything stopped, other people went into the service, they just- they just didn't have it. But after the war, it stopped almost immediately, because people started to produce and then the price was low and if you were a contractor like my father, they would go there and all, and they always said, they used the expression, "Suck on a herring." That means this is all I can give you. The price is going to be very minimal and you're just lucky to make a living, but as a contractor- GE: This was now like 1943? This was still during the war or after the war? MG: This is after the war. GE: Okay, so after the war. MG: After the war, because during the war, you couldn't- they couldn't do anything about it. GE: Right, so did the business start during the war or after the war? MG: No, it started after the war. GE: Okay, so they went into business not like 1943 but more like 1947 or something like that? MG: Maybe- During the- No, during the war, yeah, because- No they didn't go in, they must have gone in 1947 or so. GE: Or '46, you know, maybe- maybe shortly after the war. And when you say they were a "contractor", tell us a little bit more what that means. MG: A contractor means you don't buy the- you don't buy- you don't make the goods, you sell it--you do it for somebody else. You're making- You make a- Someone will send you the yarn, instead of you buying the yarn, they will send it in--and say I need 5,000 lbs. on such and such a machine, and- or they could send in 50,000 lbs. And you made different things, you made cotton knit goods, like flat goods--t-shirts, stripes, like you're wearing right there. And then there is also rib cloth, which is the underwear cloth, on the- on the ribbed machines, and that ran on a cable. There was- Each machine was on a belt run by a big motor and it ran on a long line of machines, old-fashioned machines. Later on there were people who went in and bought individual machines. But at that time, they ran on the old style belt machines. GE: Okay, okay, and so they made a lot of this type of- a lot of t-shirts. MG: They made a lot of t-shirts, right. They didn't make it, they made the cloth for t-shirts. They made the cloth for t-shirts. GE: Okay, so they didn't make the final good, they were just cloth makers. MG: After the cloth was made, they were- they got instructions of where to ship it. Maybe, you know, go back to a warehouse for them or you sent it to an individual customer. GE: So they really made the fabric that went- MG: They made the fabric. It came off the machines and that was the end of it. Then it went to a dye house, we sent it to a dye house, if it wasn't colored, originally colored. But if it was unfinished goods, it had to be sent to where it was processed in a dye house. GE: So you were the step before the dye house? MG: Right--the step before the dye house. GE: You- You made the material. And what was it that you got from the company- What was your supplier, what were your raw materials? In other words, you made- MG: Or what was- what was- What we made- made out of? We made out of cotton knit goods. Cotton, polyester, that came in, then there was a certain amount of silk--well that was usually mixed with something else. It wasn't pure silk, like you couldn't- it was too fine, the machines couldn't run that. GE: Basically, it was some kind of cotton blend, polyester, silk blend that you got--the raw materials. And then you made it into- MG: We got it on spools. GE: On spools, okay. Okay. And then you made that into fabric that would then be used to make the clothes, to go to the dye factory. MG: And from there to a particular customer where they spread the goods. GE: And made the outfit. MG: The conscious [?] of what you're saying, it's not- you know, don't worry about it. GE: Yeah, frankly I don't. MG: Nothing to worry about, nothing. GE: All right, so let's see, your uncle and father started the business around- after the war, and they were contractors. Do you know who their customer was, who they were a contractor for? MG: Only too well. They had- They got connected with Seco Mills, S-E-C-O, and they were a big- These guys were two big, two salesmen, you know, and they ran a pretty good operation. But they had enough work to keep you busy. And my uncle, instead of being a little bit of a gambler and going with maybe less work and harder to find work, but could advance you a lot better, a little easier, they didn't take that route and they stuck with the big guy, and the big guy never paid because he's always giving- he says, "You always got work, you don't have to worry." You know what I mean? Keep the- Keep the machines running. GE: Right, I see. So it was a very, very small margin you're saying. They always kept the price low. MG: Right, they didn't pay- They didn't pay enough, they squeezed you on that, because you got the work. GE: Right, right. There was always work, but- but- MG: So my uncle was one of the ones- always the one who insisted, "Stay with them, you'll always have work, you have to work." Well okay. GE: And with your father and your uncle, which one took care of what part of the business? Did they always work together with decisions or-? MG: Actually, my uncle ran- he ran the office and then he ran certain machines. My dad ran Tompkins machines, which is a special machine, it's made for baby- good for like terry cloth and soft goods like baby cloth. It's a very fine type of machine. Not- Very, very few people in Allentown used the Tompkins machines. But they bought them and my father took care of them. GE: So they were kind of specialized? The Tompkins, it was like a special- MG: Well that was special--different than most people made. First of all it was a slow producer and they never wanted to pay the amount of money because it was, you know- Even though everything is relative, if it takes longer to make you got to get paid more. But if you're a manufacturer, you can call the price a little better. You know. But it's- Anyway, that's contracting, and we always- we made a decent living, we were able to... GE: And so they were in business for how long? MG: Oh my God. They were- GE: They started around 1946-47, how long did they keep the business until? MG: Maybe 35 years or so. GE: Oh okay, so until about 1980? Around. Does that sound right? MG: Yeah, yeah. GE: So until maybe around 1980, something like that. And the whole time, that was their one customer, Seco? MG: Yeah. GE: They didn't- They were always supplying for Seco? MG: -- In his upholstering business. They borrowed money from the bank and bought two knitting machines. The mill was in operation twenty-four hours. GE: Oh. So they were- They were around the clock? MG: Each partner alternating twelve-hour shifts, and without making too much money, because how much could you produce? But, that's what they did. And the machines knitted flat goods used for t-shirts, striped and plain. Offered a little more space by Mr. Lang, they purchased rib machines, used mostly for underwear. GE: So- so they rented space by- from Mr. Lang initially? MG: Yes, you're right, the upholstery place. Naturally, needing more space for yarn, the basement which was partially dirt filled, Mr. Lang offered to give it- the place rent free if you dig it out. So he was good, he did them a favor, he did them a favor. So we hired a guy, he wheelbarrowed all the dirt out, then hauled it away, got rid of it. GE: And now they had it, rent free. MG: They had it rent free for the yarn, because it was small and the amount they could handle- They used to tell them, used to tell the- the- the contractor- the boss- the manufacturer not to send in too much yarn. GE: Right. Because they could only handle so much. MG: They could only handle so much. And that's not the way it works, because they don't care. You hold- You store it, and when we're ready to use it, you'll- That type of thing. So, but that- They couldn't do it because we were pretty good with them so they figured well, we'll- we'll find a way to manage this, and they helped- worked along with us. Until they got into- What was the next thing they did? They were offered a little more space by Mr. Lang, they purchased a rib machine. Naturally needing space for yarn, the basement which was partially dirt filled... The- It was necessary to get larger to meet the customer's needs. At that time they were knitting striped goods, used- using polyester and cotton and ny- and nylon. I think rather than silk, it was nylon. GE: Because that's a lot more durable and it had now been invented. So did they buy their own place at some point? Like how long did they stay by Mr.- MG: They never, never bought their own place. GE: Okay, so they just- they rented space. MG: Moving here's- Here's where that started. The moving process began as they moved from Mr. Lang's building to 6th and Lehigh- at 6th and Lehigh, to a large building at 14th and Gordon. They- They occupied the first floor with- with- with seventy to eighty machines. GE: Oh, seventy to eighty machines? Wow. So they built it really up a lot. MG: Yeah. The building was sold after working there five to six years. See, there was no way to stay small, otherwise the customer- the contractor- the manufacturer was not going to give you work. You have to grow, you have to grow. They don't allow it. Bethlehem Furniture of Allentown moved to Redline, New Jersey and we rented the building for seven to eight years. Do you remember Bethlehem Furniture? GE: I- I don't. Where is that located? Bethlehem Furniture? MG: I don't- GE: About? MG: I- I know at Front Street. GE: Okay. Front Street, and is that in Bethlehem or in Allentown? MG: No, no in Allentown. Front Street up at the- Somewhere maybe between Gordon and Liberty, it's hard to say exactly where, but somewhere in that area there. For seven to eight years. The next move was a two story building at 4th and Auburn. We rented the first floor, it was a little larger, and we were able to house a few more machines and store yarn. GE: How many people worked there, about? MG: Oh my God. Sometimes it's been- In that place they had about 60, 65, 70 people. GE: Okay. And that was let's say at the peak. MG: Yeah. The last move- Well around the clock. GE: Right right right, that's right. MG: But they all- They ran twelve-hour shifts for a lot of the people--the better knitters. Because you don't have to keep people and pay overtime for people that aren't producing like those that are able to better- do more. You know, handle more machines. Anyway, a good knitter- They got paid not quite what Union wages were, but they got twelve hours. So when the Union came in with the idea of unionizing, naturally, that's what their- They'd come in real early and get the workers before they got in the door--there was a lot of unrest. Because the- Those that wanted the Union were probably a lesser able to do some of the work. Anyway, they fought it off and they never had a Union. GE: Oh. So it was never a unionized- It was never a Union Shop. MG: Never a Union Shop, 'cause the guys that worked the twelve hours won out. And I mean my dad and my uncle told them, "Listen, if you're Union, you're going to be paid more, but forget the twelve hours, that's over." So they liked the idea, "Money now--to hell with the future, money now." GE: Okay, so the employees voted to stay- to keep out the Union Shop. MG: Right, and it stayed that way. GE: Okay. And Martin, what were- what did you do in the- in their business? MG: I was in the shipping. GE: You were in shipping. Okay, okay. MG: Yeah, I was in shipping, receiving and shipping, and I never had enough help. GE: Yeah, well I think that's how it goes! MG: That's how it goes. Never had enough help. So the last move was at 201 East Hamilton Street, the last move, before it was sold in 1972 to George Krasnov. GE: Okay, so it was sold in 1972. So they were in the business it sounds like about 25 years? Does that sound about right? MG: Could be, yeah, yeah, yeah. GE: Because they started a little bit after WWII and went to 1972. MG: Right. George Krasnov, a former partner of Surefit Slipcovers. GE: Okay, so he- So, so- So George Krasnov, did he leave Surefit, or did this become part of Surefit? MG: No there was a- There was a- The father died and then you know there's children and children's children, so what happened, they broke up and he was left out. And I guess there was some kind of payout, but they never spoke. There was a lot of very- In a business, that's what happens. SC: Now was Murray Platt with Surefit? GE: I- You're right, I think Murray Platt was a contractor. SC: He was a contractor. MG: Murray Platt, I just nothing- I just know Murray, but I don't- I know there was a million people, I knew everybody I talked to was in textile. SC: And was Kraznov K-R-A-Z-N-O-V? MG: K-R-A-Z-N-O-V is correct. Yeah, Kraznov, exactly. [correct spelling is K-R-A-S-N-O-V] GE: Was there anyone else working in the business? So it was your father, your uncle, and you--was anybody else working in that business from your family? MG: No. GE: Just- Just you, and your father, and your uncle. MG: My father, my dad, uncle, and myself worked for George after he bought it. GE: Wait a minute, did you say- Your father? Oh, yeah. You, your father, and your uncle all worked for Goerge for a while, I see. MG: Well that was because- When he bought it, when George bought it. Now what happened- My uncle was loafing around--you wouldn't believe it. He was okay in the beginning but then he sort of didn't care. Well, I said to my father, "George is not going to take this." So what happened? He laid him off. He thought that my father would go too, but it didn't happen that way. My father was running these Tompkins machines, and it was a good thing at the time. Anyway, my uncle stayed for two years, my dad for three, and me for five years, until he closed- And he had to close because of poor business. He called me in the office and he was crying and he said that I'd have to give it up. He says, "I'm sorry, but--" They- He had some good years. When he bought the business, I remember Marilyn- Do you know Marilyn? GE: I don't, no, I don't. MG: Well Marilyn Krasnov, his wife, said, "I never saw a business that has no debt." The cleanest business in the world, and they got it- bought it for a reasonable price. GE: So did you retire at that time? When- when- MG: No, I didn't retire. Oh yeah, when he closed it. GE: When he closed. MG: Yeah, but then I- Then I was- Then I went to different textile places. GE: So you continued to do shipping? MG: I continued . . not shipping, no, no, I did different things. I was upstairs, I helped with the spreading and different things, and- But the- the people- People were in trouble, the business wasn't good. So finally I went to a workshop, like a training place, it was on Union Boulevard, I forgot the name of it. GE: Was this a- Was this a training place for people from textiles or just a training place for- MG: I think a training place for different work. But they would have- Sometimes lead you to- GE: Different kinds of jobs and- MG: Yeah. They- They- They heard what I did and they sent me to a- a suit company. What's the name of it again? GE: Oh, like where they make suits? MG: Where they made suits. Not made suits, well, yeah, they did actually. They- They- They didn't actually finish the suit, they made the goods for it. But it was their business. GE: Okay, okay. So they were manufacturers, is that what you mean by saying "their business"? MG: What the hell was the name of that place? SC: So were they contractors? MG: No, no, they were manufacturers. SC: They were manufacturers. MG: They were manufacturers. And there was a union and I worked there ten years. GE: Oh okay. And was that located here? MG: I had a training program, that's what led me to it. GE: And what did you do at that firm? What did you do for them? MG: I ran a machine, it was like a- a matching machine. I was the only one that ran that machine. GE: It matches what? When you say a matching machine- MG: Well you know the stripes are even. So you had a- And I worked there for ten years and it was pretty nice, I- I enjoyed it. It was easier than any of the other things. I was concentrated on one thing and there was a union, and I ended up with a tiny pension. Once a month, I get $62.47. GE: Right, right. Where- Where was that located? MG: Textile Amalgamated- That was located in Industrial Park. Industrial Park. GE: Are they still in business? MG: No, everybody's out. They were in business a pretty long- They went down South I think in 1992. And I've heard that they- Well, that's a long time ago, and they closed like everybody else. 'Cause they had- What was the name of them? SC: Amalgamated something? MG: No, Amalgamated is the- is the union. SC: The union. Amalgamated- MG: And that's why- SC: Amalgamated of- GE: Amalgamated Workers, Textile Workers? SC: Clothing and Textile Workers? I can look that up. MG: Yeah. It's a- It's the- There's that other union, too. SC: International Ladies Garment Workers? MG: She's a real sewer! GE: She's a real historian! MG: International Ladies Garment Workers is the union? Yeah, sure, International Ladies Garment Workers is the Union. SC: Look for the union label. MG: Look for the union label! GE: Exactly. Do you have any favorite stories about when- your dad and uncle, about the business? Like any stories- MG: No, only when you leave I'll have a story. GE: Well you'll be able to tell me if you do. MG: A famous story . . . GE: But any favorite story or any interesting story either about something that took place at the business or something with- something with the manufacturer that they were dealing with, something that you observed while you were working, anything that you wanted to- Well how did you feel- Let's say, you worked- you worked there with the other workers. How did you feel the relationship was between the workers and the owners? MG: That's- They were- They were- I would say not bad. It was- I couldn't say they were terrible. They often came and complained. I often heard about it. Things you know that- "This is the worst place to work." I say, "Any place you work is the worst place." I told- That's what I told them. "I worked," I said, "in other places, too." GE: How do you- So now- Just like you said, a lot of this has disappeared, you know, textiles, there is no more in this area. MG: Well price-wise they were- GE: Right, they went to cheaper labor. MG: Priced out. That's what everything happened here. That's why there is no manufacturing here. What happened with the automobile industry? They're still doing business. GE: Yeah, yeah. So far we are still holding our own, but it's certainly not the way we did it- We didn't dominate the way we dominated 50 years ago. MG: But there's still Ford, Chrysler, and General Motors. GE: Yes, yes, yes. So I was just wondering from your impressions, the fact that this industry really no longer exists here, what- How do you think that has affected first the Jewish community, the local Jewish community, and second just the Allentown community? MG: Well I think the Jewish community, where before, a young fella knew where he was going to go--so he went off and went to school, and then joined the business, or went right into the business. And he had a good living, because they were thriving, you know, one way or another they were doing pretty well. A lot of them were manufacturers, so they did very well--like Schneider Manufacturer. Irwin Schneider--they had a wonderful business--sewing plant, they had 100 machines, they were unionized. It didn't matter. They were manufacturers. If you're union, you know it's- it's not always- the union is not going to kill everybody. GE: So for the Jewish community, you're saying, there was a lot of certainty then? That- That it was something that was clear. MG: Yeah they had a way- They had a way- A direction to go. And then later on, I guess, for Jewish people, it wasn't the- the only way out. They went to school, they got a good education, they became doctors, they became engineers, their- Education-wise, that's- that's how they did it. GE: Right, right. Good point, right. MG: Yeah and what happened, naturally, in the downtown where I originally said I worked Saturdays, changed, became... They opened up malls. In the downtown, every store that was downtown--Williams, Brytes [?], those were the dress shops and hat stores--became- Well, they were closed. And big stores opened up in the malls--department stores. So the little guy was out, the corner store was out, the little guy was- the supermarkets. I'm old enough to see it all. GE: And so for the Allentown community, certainly all of that changed. How about for the workers? In other words, there were all these jobs and now those types of jobs don't exist. Do you think that matters, are there just- For the workers? Were they- MG: No, because- Well there are service jobs now, that's not- Certainly it doesn't matter. Because it was no problem getting a job years ago in the Lehigh Valley. Because the Lehigh Valley and surrounding area was all textiles. It was like a domino effect, I'll never forget, when they closed. GE: Right, and what do you mean "it was a domino effect?" MG: Well one- One closed after the other. One closed after the other and that was the end of it. The knitting mills, the sewing plants, some of them went down South, there was- Now, for example, Allison Manufacturing--they were big. We got work from them. They went down South and they- they- they were good for a while down there. Finally they sold out--they probably made millions so it didn't matter. But they were one of the big guys around here. GE: Who owned that? MG: Schneider. GE: Oh, is that Schneider. MG: Yeah. GE: You know, we did interview [them]. MG: Some of these things must be the same as- what I'm telling you, you heard from them. GE: But that's good, it's good for us to hear it a few times because it all confirms. SC: Creates truth. So do- Which Schneider was that? Allison Mills? MG: Warton? W-A-R-T-- T-O-N? Warton. Yeah, I think W-A-R-T-O-N. [correct spelling is W-H-A-R-T-O-N] GE: Are they still in town, the family? I don't know them. Like are they still local? MG: I don't know. I just- Every time I answer a question I wish my other sister was here. Like Gloria, she's- GE: You know, I should have asked. It would have been a good idea for-for Gloria or Libby to do it with you. MG: Well they- The only thing is they didn't have- GE: Correct, direct experience. MG: Not direct experience alone. They don't have the interest to bother- to bother to remember everything. They don't care that much. I was- It's more of my interest than theirs. But I still think Gloria will read some of this and say, "No, this and this and," you know. Well she- I mean, they could remember, but... GE: Why do you think- Why do you think the Jews- the Jews in general were somewhat over-represented in textiles? You know many when they came here worked in textiles. Why do you think that is? MG: Well, they came over here carrying machines. GE: Right but why- but why- Did they come over here, did your family come over carrying machines? MG: No, they didn't do any of that. With these I'm talking about sewing machines. If you went into manufacturing at that time, if you wanted a job and had a machine, especially if you did it, it was different! GE: You could do it I guess even in your little apartment or- MG: Well- Well- You could do it even in their place. That's right--even in their place. And I think today, believe it not, there are Syrians. GE: That's what I hear. MG: You heard that? They have little spots and they're contracting at a- They have no overhead. So they can- they can make the stuff at a- And guess what? I think the government knows about it and they won't even bother them. They are off the street, they're not collecting unemployment. And if they are, they get double. We had a guy who did that and the- the- the unemployment agency came in and took him right off the job. GE: So what do you think made the textile industry appealing to the Jewish immigrants? MG: I think it was easy, it was something you could- It was a lot of work. It was- And also, it looked like- I mean, I don't know if I have the answer to that, but it looked like they were able to get started without too much trouble. They had the- They had the machine, they had the way to get in there. GE: We call that a lot of times "low barriers." MG: Low barriers! That's right, that's right. GE: Low barriers to enter. MG: That's right. GE: Okay, terrific, terrific. SC: I have a couple of follow up questions. MG: Oh I knew it! I knew it! That's okay, I'm not in a rush, I'm not rushing you. I'm retired. SC: That's- That was one of my questions. When did you retire? How old were you? Or what year? MG: Didn't I say in here? GE: That's okay. Well you know what- I think you said '87 when you retired? About '87? MG: There you go! SC: Okay, I don't have that down here. GE: It that about right? You were 62? MG: This thing don't work. I'll tell you- GE: Well the reason I said '87, tell me if this is right, you said that you left in '77 and then you said you worked about another 10 years. SC: Another ten years. MG: Well I left in 19- Let me see. I moved, I moved in '87 to this house. We moved it- GE: But the shop that bought you from Krasnov, that happened in '72, right? SC: Yeah, I wrote down '72. GE: And he kept your uncle on for two years, your father for three years, and you for five. SC: Five years. GE: So that's now '77. SC: [19]77, and then you worked at other places for a while. GE: You said about ten years. MG: Yeah, I worked for ten years. SC: Okay, so that is '87. MG: There you go! Something came out! I like that girl, she's mathematically- She got me cornered. GE: And- And am I right, Uncle Martin, that you were about 62 then when you retired? MG: Yeah. SC: What was the address of Lang? The Lang Company, where you rented? GE: Where you got started. MG: 6th and- 6th- 6th and Lehigh. SC: And Lehigh. Okay. That was the one that was 6th and Lehigh, I wasn't quite clear about that. And then 4th and- Was it 4th and Auburn that the one business you worked- Bethlehem Furniture at that- MG: No, that's 201 East Hamilton Street, Bethlehem Furniture. SC: Okay. Well what was it on Auburn? "Twelve-hour shift"--one of yours? GE: Maybe- Maybe that was one of the ones that you rented? SC: Yeah, one of the ones that you rented? Was it 4th and Auburn, I thought it- I thought you said. GE: I remember you being in Auburn. SC: Yeah, well, we can get that from the tape. MG: Wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. You'd better repeat these things. Did Schneider tell you about when they came in and broke- they- broke up all of his machines? GE: I don't think so. SC: He mentioned it, he mentioned it. GE: Irwin? SC: Yeah. GE: Salistky did. MG: No, no, not- not Salitsky. GE: Schnieder did? SC: Yeah. MG: Salistky's dead. GE: I know, I know. But we interviewed him before. We interviewed him and- MG: I'm going to live on. GE: Good. SC: We'll be back. MG: I'm going to live on. GE: His family has very good longevity. His mom and dad were both like in their upper 90's. MG: To tell you the truth, to tell you the truth, do you know what I did? I had a stock I sold twice, not remembering the first time. GE: Oh. MG: So I'm telling you, I'm worried. GE: No, you're okay. MG: "You're okay." She's telling me, I'm telling you I'm not okay! SC: No, you are. Well I have a couple- A couple of other questions. This is going to stop, I'll just write the answers to it. Maybe we'll get one in. What did your family value most, your extended family? These are sort of filmy questions. These are thought questions. MG: Live a clean, honest life, I think, is very very important. Not- My mother always told me, "Don't come home with a policeman." I said , "I'm safe once he takes me home, Mom." She didn't wanna see me come- come home with a policeman. That to her was-- SC: That's great. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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01:33:32
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Martin Goldstein, July 16, 2013
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Martin Goldstein talks about how his father and uncle came to America with their families, initially worked in New York in a textile mill, then moved to Allentown to work at Arcadia Mills, a large knitting mill. Martin’s father and uncle were foreman at the factory. The mill operated 24 hours per day, each man was a foreman of a twelve hour shift. Then in the late 1940s, after World War II, Martin’s father and uncle started their own knitting mill named Walgo Knitting. They were contractors for Seco Mills until they sold the business in 1972.
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LVTNT-03
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2013-07-16
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Title
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
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Esther Halperin
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5.4 July 17th, 2012 Esther Halperin, July 17th, 2012 LVTNT-16 28:33 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Esther Halperin Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 HalperinEsther_20120617 1.0:|19(10)|38(7)|53(10)|72(11)|89(17)|110(8)|129(8)|150(12)|173(5)|202(11)|233(2)|256(14)|281(6)|306(8)|331(5)|348(8)|365(17)|394(8)|423(2)|454(8)|473(11)|496(3)|519(6)|540(16)|565(4)|588(5)|609(4)|630(9)|639(8) 0 YouTube video < ; iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fenEsUYdBB0?autoplay=0& ; rel=0" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer ; autoplay ; clipboard-write ; encrypted-media ; gyroscope ; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen> ; < ; /iframe> ; 10 Introduction—Esther Halperin SC: Today is July 17th, interview with Esther Halperin — and 2012. Attending are Gail Eisenberg and Susan Clemens-Bruder. So I'd like to take you sort of back. We like to put people into their own family context. So first of all, what is your full name? When were you born and where have you lived in your life?
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 ; EH: Okay, my full name is Esther Waitz Helperin.
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 ; SC: And can you spell Waitz?
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 ; EH: W-A-I-T-Z. I was born August 17th, 1925 at 9th and Liberty Street above my parent's bakery, and I've only lived in Allentown, Pennsylvania all my life. 0 75 Family History SC: And so can you talk a little bit-- putting yourself back into your family history? Can you talk about your family as far back as you know, both sides of your family, where they came from, what their education was and where they worked if you know it?
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 ; EH: All right. Both parents came from Poland. They lived in Warsaw and also in Lodz, Poland. My father was a baker and my mother, they were married in Poland. And they had a bakery with a retail shop in Warsaw. They both came from very large families. My mother and father left Poland and came to New York City.
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 ; GE: About when?
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 ; EH: Let’s see, about 1912. 0 392 Childhood in Fullerton EH: I-- from the time I was five, I lived in Fullerton, which is- I don't know if you know where that is. It's a suburb of Allentown, it's north of Allentown. It was out in the country. We were the only Jewish family in that whole community. But my mother was happy. The element was very definitely all Pennsylvania Dutch. And if you came from anywhere but Allentown or Fullerton, you were an outsider. You were a foreigner.
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 ; GE: Were you considered foreigners or the fact that you were from Allentown...?
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 ; EH: No. If you weren't Pennsylvania Dutch, you-
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 ; GE: Were a foreigner, okay, that’s what I thought. 0 444 Education EH: I was the only Jewish kid in grade school as well as high school. But two-- a sister and a brother preceded me so-- but I got along fine. There was no outward anti-Semitism. I had a lot of friends. I, I was never bullied or hassled or-- I was very popular and I fit in very well, although I- late in my teens, [no], early in my teens I started making Jewish friends. But I went to my high school, I went to Whitehall High School and I went to Moravian and I graduated from Moravian. I married my first husband.
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 ; GE: Excuse me, Moravian — did you go to Moravian College? 
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 ; EH: It was a women's college. It was only a women's college. 0 559 Family History (cont'd) SC: What was your mother's maiden name? Do you know?
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 ; EH: It was Ostrovesky.
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 ; SC: Can you spell that?
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 ; EH: Yeah. O-S-T-R-O-V-E-S-K-Y. 
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 ; SC: And her family was from Warsaw?
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 ; EH: Her family was from- first from Pinchov which is P-I-N-C-H-O-T. O-V? O-V or O-T. Pinchov. It was this very small shtetl. And then they moved, I think to Lodz, which was a big community, and my mother worked there in a knitting- she told me, in a knitting factory. They made caps- hats, knitted caps. And then she met my father and they married there, and then moved to Warsaw, which was even a bigger community then. Lodz was a textile community. 0 631 First Marriage to Marvin Goldberg SC: You graduated from Moravian. 
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 ; EH: I graduated from Moravian. 
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 ; GE: And you know what? Actually, I'm sorry. One other question. You said that you started meeting- making some Jewish friends, were they people from the Allentown community?
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 ; EH: Yes, I would go into the Jewish Community Center, at 6th and Chew Street. And there were a lot of, you know, teenager groups. And we did a lot of things as groups in those days. 
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 ; SC: And did you meet your husband there?
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 ; EH: Yes, my first husband. His name was Marvin Goldberg. And I, well, I married my junior year in- I married him my junior year in college. And four years later, I had my oldest son, Richard. 0 834 Post-Divorce: Single-Motherhood and Career SC: Did your first husband pass away or did you divorce?
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 ; EH: We divorced. My second husband passed away.
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 ; GE: How long were you married to Marvin Goldberg?
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 ; EH: I think about 10 years. 
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 ; SC: And did you have any other children together?
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 ; EH: Just one. 
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 ; SC: Just Richard. And then you taught at . . .
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 ; EH: I taught at the Jewish Community Center, and the reason I did that, I didn't go into public schools, was I wanted to have the same holidays off. Ricky was going to the Jewish Day School and I didn't want to leave him with babysitters, and they weren't that available, so I chose some institution where I would have the same holidays off and I could, you know, be with him. So I taught there for seven years, although I was really overqualified, I felt it was important that I raise my child myself. 0 936 Second Marriage to Bernie Halperin: Widowhood and Taking Over the Contracting Business SC: Then you met Mr. Halperin?
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 ; EH: Yes, we married. And we weren't married very long before he died. Yeah. And I, I was now-- had a 12 year old and a new baby, Jonathan, and I, I didn't see myself-- How do I go back to teaching public school and leaving two children now? So I chose to go up, although I knew not a thing about the garment industry, I said I see other people in this industry with less talent than I have, so maybe I can make it. So I went up with fresh eyes and I, took me a while because, you know, it took me a year to just adjust myself. But I became very successful there. I guess, fresh eyes and I had a lot of obstacles, but I overcame them. 0 1159 Unionizing the Business GE: Okay, so this is around 1965, you found yourself being a widow, two children, and you decided to take over, go into the business.
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 ; EH: Right, right. 
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 ; GE: Okay, great. And there were about eighty-five workers.
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 ; EH: Then, right.
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 ; SC: And what did they produce?
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 ; EH: Well they- the factory produced ladie’s slacks, shorts, skirts and bathing suits. We were non-union — he tried very hard to keep away from the union. Most of the plants in Allentown were unionized, but I soon found that I couldn't get big contracts from non-union places, so I decided it was best if I would unionize because, unless you were a union factory, then ILGWU — you couldn't get the big runs on styles. So I walked into Ike Gordon’s ILG- I don’t know if you ever heard that name.
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 ; GE: I know ILGWU. 0 1293 Automating the Factory EH: And then I put in a lot of work aids, which most other factories didn't do.
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 ; GE: Say that again — a lot of what?
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 ; EH: Work aids for the sewing machine operators.
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 ; GE: And what does a work aid do, what does it mean?
 ; 
 ; EH: Well, in other words, I would have on their machines automatic cutters that would cut the thread instead of them picking up a scissors and having to cut it and then- So I pursued that area and I became pretty well-automated throughout the factory because I felt that was the wave of the future. You could only get them to produce more if they were able to produce more. And I was one of the first in the area to do that, to highly-automate the factory. 0 1420 The Success of Hands-on Management EH: But I must admit that probably because I was a novice and didn't do things the way they were always done, that I was successful in this business. So I looked for change and I got it and I really liked what I was doing very, very much. And I did a lot of physical work myself. I had two kids to support and instead of having a lot of middle management, I was top management and lots of times middle management. So I physically worked on the as well as ran the business.
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 ; SC: Which historically-
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 ; EH: Was not the way it was. 
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 ; SC: No, but the people who did stay involved in the business and didn't farm out the middle, management jobs really do better because-
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 ; GE: Well you’re in touch. 
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 ; SC: You're in touch with everything.
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 ; EH: Oh yeah, I saw what the problems were. I managed the finishing department, which was the inspecting, the pressing, the hanging and bagging and the tail end of the- I managed that floor as well as running the business. 
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 ; SC: So you had your hands on quality control? 0 1536 Employees/Discomfort with a Woman Boss SC: Where did you workers come from? Did they come mostly-?
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 ; EH: That area — Slatington, Palmerton, Walnutport. That whole area. 
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 ; SC: And were they more of, ethnically, Pennsylvania Dutch or Eastern European?
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 ; EH: They were a mixture, yeah, they were a mixture. Mostly there were a lot of Welsh in that area and a lot of Pennsylvania Dutch, a lot, and some Slovish or, you know, Polish and Slavic groups. And it wasn't easy. They didn't like having a woman boss in the beginning.
 ; 
 ; GE: Did that- did that then get better? 
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 ; EH: Well my mechanic — the mechanic said he didn’t know whether he could work for a woman. So I said, “Give it a try. “ 0 MovingImage Esther Halperin talks about how she became a successful sewing contractor due to financial necessity. Esther’s husband died suddenly, leaving her with two children to support. Esther decided to operate her husband’s factory in Slatington even though at the time she knew nothing about the business. As a woman owner back in the early 1960s, she faced many obstacles-- from employees who didn’t want to work for a woman, to customers who didn't want to buy from a woman. Esther persevered and conquered these challenges to run a successful sewing contracting business for about twenty-five years. Interview with Esther Halperin, July 17th, 2012 GAIL EISENBERG: Actually, while we're talking- SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is July 17th, interview with Esther Halperin -- and 2012. Attending are Gail Eisenberg and Susan Clemens-Bruder. So I'd like to take you sort of back. We like to put people into their own family context. So first of all, what is your full name? When were you born and where have you lived in your life? ESTHER HALPERIN: Okay, my full name is Esther Waitz Helperin. SC: And can you spell Waitz? EH: W-A-I-T-Z. I was born August 17th, 1925 at 9th and Liberty Street above my parent's bakery, and I've only lived in Allentown, Pennsylvania all my life. SC: And so can you talk a little bit-- putting yourself back into your family history? Can you talk about your family as far back as you know, both sides of your family, where they came from, what their education was and where they worked if you know it? EH: All right. Both parents came from Poland. They lived in Warsaw and also in Lodz, Poland. My father was a baker and my mother, they were married in Poland. And they had a bakery with a retail shop in Warsaw. They both came from very large families. My mother and father left Poland and came to New York City. GE: About when? EH: Let's see, about 1912. My father worked in a very large bakery in New York, and he didn't like being an employee. I think he made seven dollars a week. He said that he wasn't going to work for seven dollars a week because he made more than that when he left Poland. So he bought a bakery in Long Island, and he built it up, and he sold it and moved to Connecticut. And then he bought another bakery there, built it up and sold that. And then he moved to Allentown. He always followed where bakeries were being sold and where he thought they had a good potential. And he bought a bakery at 9th and Liberty, called Long's Bakery, which I think is still there. I was the last of five children. I had two sisters and two brothers who were older than I. SC: What were your parents' full names? EH: My father's name was Abraham Waitz. My mother's name was Shaindel Sadie Waitz. My father, I don't know what kind of education they, he had, but he could read and write English, and read and write Hebrew, and he was a very successful business man for a foreigner who came here with, you know, not a lot of money. GE: How old were your parents when they came, when they came here? EH: When they came here, my mother was pregnant with my oldest brother. He was born-- he was conceived in Europe and born here. And when they arrived in New York, he was born in December and I think they arrived in September. So shortly thereafter. My mother told me that she hired a melamed. You know what a melamed is? A melamed is the Hebrew word for teacher, because in her family, they only educated the boys, but she wanted an education. So when she went to work, she hired a melamed to teach her how to read and write. So she was literate. They came here and I remember it-- Oh, after Allentown, my father sold the place at 9th and Liberty and built a place at 2nd and-- on 2nd Street. No. On Front Street near- built a bakery there. And he really prospered there because I think it was during the Depression and people couldn't afford much more than bread. So bread, you know, was a big seller in the food industry. However, my mother didn't like the area down there. SC: And was that part of the community? EH: Yes, there was a big Jewish community on Front and 2nd Street -- 2nd Street was really the heart of the Jewish community. 2nd and Tilghman, 2nd and Allen. And there were a lot of pool halls down there. And my brother was about 15, 16, and my mother didn't like him hanging around the pool halls. So she urged my father to find another bakery. So he moved to Fullerton -- I was about five years old -- and built a really big bakery. And they had a lot of trucks and trucks would go out and sell door to door, bread, door to door, like they were milkmen. There were also bakers that sold. And they sold to a lot of mom-and-pop grocery stores. There were no big markets then. I-- from the time I was five, I lived in Fullerton, which is- I don't know if you know where that is. It's a suburb of Allentown, it's north of Allentown. It was out in the country. We were the only Jewish family in that whole community. But my mother was happy. The element was very definitely all Pennsylvania Dutch. And if you came from anywhere but Allentown or Fullerton, you were an outsider. You were a foreigner. GE: Were you considered foreigners or the fact that you were from Allentown...? EH: No. If you weren't Pennsylvania Dutch, you- GE: Were a foreigner, okay, that's what I thought. EH: Okay. But, you know, we got along well with my neighbors. I was the only Jewish kid in grade school as well as high school. But two-- a sister and a brother preceded me so-- but I got along fine. There was no outward anti-Semitism. I had a lot of friends. I, I was never bullied or hassled or-- I was very popular and I fit in very well, although I- late in my teens, [no], early in my teens I started making Jewish friends. But I went to my high school, I went to Whitehall High School and I went to Moravian and I graduated from Moravian. I married my first husband. GE: Excuse me, Moravian -- did you go to Moravian College? EH: It was a women's college. It was only a women's college. SC: You didn't go to the academy, though? EH: No. The Academy was high school. I went to Whitehall's High School -- public school. But I went to Moravian and graduated my-- as a English and History Major, and with teaching qualifications. SC: May I stop you here? Do you mind if we turn off the TV? EH: Oh yeah, not at all. [cross chatter, irrelevant to interview] EH: -- too detailed? SC: No, not at all. GE: Not at all. EH: I think it might be boring. SC: No. The more detail you can give, the better. So let me just take you back for one minute. What was your mother's maiden name? Do you know? EH: It was Ostrovesky. SC: Can you spell that? EH: Yeah. O-S-T-R-O-V-E-S-K-Y. SC: And her family was from Warsaw? EH: Her family was from- first from Pinchov which is P-I-N-C-H-O-T. O-V? O-V or O-T. Pinchov. It was this very small shtetl. And then they moved, I think to Lodz, which was a big community, and my mother worked there in a knitting- she told me, in a knitting factory. They made caps- hats, knitted caps. And then she met my father and they married there, and then moved to Warsaw, which was even a bigger community then. Lodz was a textile community. SC: So it's in your blood a little. EH: Well, by marriage only. Bakery -- the baking business is our business. Okay so where [was I]? SC: You graduated from Moravian. EH: I graduated from Moravian. GE: And you know what? Actually, I'm sorry. One other question. You said that you started meeting- making some Jewish friends, were they people from the Allentown community? EH: Yes, I would go into the Jewish Community Center, at 6th and Chew Street. And there were a lot of, you know, teenager groups. And we did a lot of things as groups in those days. SC: And did you meet your husband there? EH: Yes, my first husband. His name was Marvin Goldberg. And I, well, I married my junior year in- I married him my junior year in college. And four years later, I had my oldest son, Richard. Richard- GE: I'm sorry. Your husband, your first husband, what was his first name? EH: Marvin. GE: Marvin. EH: He was also an Allentonian. And Richard lives across the street from me. SC: Oh, that's nice. EH: Yeah. Okay, so where are we? SC: Your first husband, what business was he in? EH: Um, let's see. He was originally an X-ray technician -- when I married him, he- that's what he was doing in New York. And later, he- I think he worked for his parents for a while. They had a delicatessen in Allentown. All right. So we're now-- GE: So he was working and living in New York City? EH: When I married, when I married him. GE: Right, so did you go to New York City? EH: No, he came back. This little girl didn't want to leave Allentown! I was pretty sheltered, I must say, after being the youngest of five children. GE: So he moved back to Allentown, and he worked in his parents' deli. EH: Yeah, he did that, and I think he also did other jobs. I think maybe in the textile industry. I think he worked for Mishkin for a while. Al Mishkin -- they're cousins by the way. They're first cousins. And let's see, where am I? SC: Let's see, your oldest son. How many children? EH: He has four children. He married his college sweetheart and had four children. And he came into, let's see -- do you want to know his statistics? He-- no, not too much. GE: I don't think he. . . SC: Yeah. And do you have any other children? EH: Yes. I subsequently married Bernie Halperin and it was the Halperin family that worked in the textile business. He was in it. He was-- he manufactured, had a clothing factory in Slatington. In the interim, I taught at the Jewish Community Center in the . . . as a nursery school teacher for about seven years, and I did a little teaching for the Jewish Day School, too. SC: Did your first husband pass away or did you divorce? EH: We divorced. My second husband passed away. GE: How long were you married to Marvin Goldberg? EH: I think about 10 years. SC: And did you have any other children together? EH: Just one. SC: Just Richard. And then you taught at . . . EH: I taught at the Jewish Community Center, and the reason I did that, I didn't go into public schools, was I wanted to have the same holidays off. Ricky was going to the Jewish Day School and I didn't want to leave him with babysitters, and they weren't that available, so I chose some institution where I would have the same holidays off and I could, you know, be with him. So I taught there for seven years, although I was really overqualified, I felt it was important that I raise my child myself. SC: So when did you meet. . . .? EH: Oh, I got a Masters too, in the interim. In-- I got a Master of Science in Education from Temple University after oh, I don't know how many years -- Ricky was about six I think, or seven when I, you know, did get my Masters. Okay, now where are we? SC: Then you met Mr. Halperin? EH: Yes, we married. And we weren't married very long before he died. Yeah. And I, I was now-- had a 12 year old and a new baby, Jonathan, and I, I didn't see myself-- How do I go back to teaching public school and leaving two children now? So I chose to go up, although I knew not a thing about the garment industry, I said I see other people in this industry with less talent than I have, so maybe I can make it. So I went up with fresh eyes and I, took me a while because, you know, it took me a year to just adjust myself. But I became very successful there. I guess, fresh eyes and I had a lot of obstacles, but I overcame them. SC: And this was in Slatington with the Halperin family? EH: Not the Halperin family, they had nothing to do with it. It was my husband's factory. He started that factory with one of the Senderowitzs. GE: This is Bernie started it. EH: Bernie. He started that, I don't know what year. I honestly can't remember what year. I have a plaque somewhere. GE: But is this around 1950? 1950 is around when I assume. is Richard about 60? EH: Yes. GE: Okay, so that's around 1950, '51, '52. Right? Around '52. Did Bernie already have the factory? EH: No, it was around. . . .Jonathan was born in '64, so I took over after. Late '64, early '65. GE: And how long did the factory already. . . . was it-? EH: It was there a long time, over twenty years probably. GE: Oh so he and Senderowitz . . . EH: He had been married before. GE: Right. So he and Senderowitz were already in this business for twenty years. EH: No, Senderowitz left the business, and it was my husband's. He bought- they were partners, I think my husband bought him out, and then it was only... But the original name was Halsen, in which was Halperin and Senderowitz. SC: And where was that factory located? EH: In Slatington. SC: It was in Slatington. EH: Yeah. When I took over, there were about 85 people working there. Well it was a pretty daunting -- it was pretty daunting to even think about running it. But I learned fast and my sheltered life was far from sheltered. GE: And Esther, this is around 1965. right? EH: Right. GE: So just to make sure that I understand correctly: So Bernie and one of the Senderowitzs, they started the factory maybe 20 years earlier. But in the meantime, Bernie . . . Senderowitz left, and Bernie- EH: Bernie married. GE: Bernie had bought him out. EH: He had a marriage which was dissolved. GE: Right. And it was just maybe- how many years do you think he was in it himself? Just the last few years? EH: That I can't tell you. I have no idea when they parted. GE: Okay, so this is around 1965, you found yourself being a widow, two children, and you decided to take over, go into the business. EH: Right, right. GE: Okay, great. And there were about eighty-five workers. EH: Then, right. SC: And what did they produce? EH: Well they- the factory produced ladie's slacks, shorts, skirts and bathing suits. We were non-union -- he tried very hard to keep away from the union. Most of the plants in Allentown were unionized, but I soon found that I couldn't get big contracts from non-union places, so I decided it was best if I would unionize because, unless you were a union factory, then ILGWU -- you couldn't get the big runs on styles. So I walked into Ike Gordon's ILG- I don't know if you ever heard that name. GE: I know ILGWU. EH: Right, well he was the head of the union. I walked in and said, "I'd like you to unionize my factory." He almost dropped dead. And he said, "Are you sure, Esther?" I said, "I'm totally sure." "Are you positive?" I said, "I am totally positive." "Well, why?" I said, "Because I need big manufacturers like Bobby Brooks." And oh, I'm trying to think-- Bobby Brooks. I'm trying to think who the other- but really big manufacturers could give me a big lots to sew. So we were just sewing contractors. And the only way you could make any money was if you weren't changing your styles constantly, having to teach the girls new methods. And then I put in a lot of work aids, which most other factories didn't do. GE: Say that again -- a lot of what? EH: Work aids for the sewing machine operators. GE: And what does a work aid do, what does it mean? EH: Well, in other words, I would have on their machines automatic cutters that would cut the thread instead of them picking up a scissors and having to cut it and then- So I pursued that area and I became pretty well-automated throughout the factory because I felt that was the wave of the future. You could only get them to produce more if they were able to produce more. And I was one of the first in the area to do that, to highly-automate the factory. SC: Did that change your work clientele? Ethnically or- EH: No. The clientele- SC: Meaning the operators. EH: Oh no, they were all the same operators -- or I. . . there was constant turnover in the industry. Yeah, Some would go, some would come back, some would get pregnant, Some would come back. There was a constant turnover. But I am I- I really studied the whole thing and I decided where I could make us- how I could make a success of this. In fact, I produced more out of my factory with X amount of girls than most factories in the area did. And the union came in and they audited my books and stayed and watched the production maybe for three or four days because they thought I was cooking the books because I was, I was producing more than anybody else. GE: Your productivity was very high. EH: Yeah. And they thought I- so I opened the books and I said, "stay here and watch, see what I'm doing." And they stayed four days and then they left. But I must admit that probably because I was a novice and didn't do things the way they were always done, that I was successful in this business. So I looked for change and I got it and I really liked what I was doing very, very much. And I did a lot of physical work myself. I had two kids to support and instead of having a lot of middle management, I was top management and lots of times middle management. So I physically worked on the as well as ran the business. SC: Which historically- EH: Was not the way it was. SC: No, but the people who did stay involved in the business and didn't farm out the middle, management jobs really do better because- GE: Well you're in touch. SC: You're in touch with everything. EH: Oh yeah, I saw what the problems were. I managed the finishing department, which was the inspecting, the pressing, the hanging and bagging and the tail end of the- I managed that floor as well as running the business. SC: So you had your hands on quality control? EH: I did. Yeah, as well as going up and sort of supervising my supervisor upstairs. I really worked very hard. I walked- worked sometimes 12 hours a day. SC: Did you have only one shift or did you have more than one shift? EH: I used to have two shifts, but I soon found it wasn't very productive and I stopped. Then I only did one shift. SC: Where did you workers come from? Did they come mostly-? EH: That area -- Slatington, Palmerton, Walnutport. That whole area. SC: And were they more of, ethnically, Pennsylvania Dutch or Eastern European? EH: They were a mixture, yeah, they were a mixture. Mostly there were a lot of Welsh in that area and a lot of Pennsylvania Dutch, a lot, and some Slovish or, you know, Polish and Slavic groups. And it wasn't easy. They didn't like having a woman boss in the beginning. GE: Did that- did that then get better? EH: Well my mechanic -- the mechanic said he didn't know whether he could work for a woman. So I said, "Give it a try. " SC: Was he Pennsylvania Dutch? I shouldn't have asked that. GE: Did the women also give you a hard time or was it more the men? EH: Well, we only had two men. One was a shipper and one was a mechanic. Then Ricky came into the business and he was the industrial engineer. No, I think women sort of resented it in the beginning, too, because most factories had men as the head of the- But, you know, I made very good friends with them. I was their financier, and you know, when they needed money, I would give them my own money. And sometimes I'd get it back, sometimes I didn't. I had to hear all their stories, but I had a lot of empathy for them. I really felt... Pretty horrible because I felt their work was dehumanizing and I- they sat there like a robot all day long and did the same thing, did the same operation, and it was hard work. GE: Absolutely. EH: And I was sensitive to that. And I tried not to be an exploiter. I did everything I could to make life as easy for them -- I air conditioned the place, I put in a system that would clean the air so they weren't breathing all the dust and the lint from- So I did the best to make their workplace comfortable and healthy. I did. And I did empathize with the fact that that was the only way they could make a living. I did. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Esther Halperin, July 17th, 2012
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Esther Halperin talks about how she became a successful sewing contractor due to financial necessity. Esther’s husband died suddenly, leaving her with two children to support. Esther decided to operate her husband’s factory in Slatington even though at the time she knew nothing about the business. As a woman owner back in the early 1960s, she faced many obstacles-- from employees who didn’t want to work for a woman, to customers who didn't want to buy from a woman. Esther persevered and conquered these challenges to run a successful sewing contracting business for about twenty-five years.
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2012-07-17
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
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James Hartzell
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5.4 March 6, 2012 James Hartzell and Georgine Banko, March 6, 2012 LVTNT-10 1:25:26 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg James Hartzell Georgine Banko Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 HartzelJim_20120306.mp4 1.0:|19(18)|58(9)|91(7)|130(5)|167(9)|190(13)|211(18)|230(12)|255(8)|284(4)|311(5)|346(3)|377(7)|408(3)|433(9)|456(5)|491(5)|512(15)|537(3)|558(2)|583(3)|600(9)|623(7)|646(8)|685(8)|714(10)|753(10)|774(13)|809(12)|842(15)|865(8)|888(5)|907(15)|936(14)|965(7)|994(5)|1029(13)|1062(16)|1093(10)|1112(9)|1135(5)|1154(11)|1179(9)|1204(3)|1233(8)|1258(10)|1279(9)|1300(7)|1323(10)|1348(6)|1371(3)|1394(11)|1421(9)|1446(14)|1469(2)|1498(8)|1523(8)|1552(2)|1577(2)|1612(15)|1635(9)|1666(10)|1687(3)|1706(12)|1721(11)|1742(10)|1763(2)|1788(4)|1815(13)|1844(4)|1869(10)|1892(5)|1915(14)|1934(5)|1957(15)|1984(5)|2015(5)|2036(14)|2055(14)|2080(7)|2111(5)|2132(11)|2163(6)|2194(10)|2227(7)|2238(6) 0 https://youtu.be/iQ7jtQIrPQw YouTube video 0 Family History SC: Today is March 6, 2012, interview with James Hartzell, attending Gail Eisenberg and Susan Clemens-Bruder. Should I call you Jim? Jim, could you tell me your full name, where you were born, and just start with that?
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 ; JH: Okay, my full name is James W. Hartzell. I was born in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
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 ; SC: And can you tell me the year you were born?
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 ; JH: 1932.
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 ; SC: 32. And also as far as your family background, as far back as you know-- your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, their names and where they were from, and what they did as far as work will really be helpful just to see a line of work and progress.
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 ; JH: Okay, my father’s name was George. He was a fireman for the city of Bethlehem. My mother’s name was Goldie, and she had worked in the factory when I was in high school. And she eventually became a forelady in that same factory and became a part-owner of it, a silent partner. 0 313 Education SC: And can you tell me a little bit about your educational background?
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 ; JH: I graduated in 1950 from high school, and I was shortly drafted into the army. And I went, was sent to Korea, spent 16 months in Korea. In the meantime, while I was working while I was in high school, I was working part-time in a factory. Its Acme Children’s Wear in Fountain Hill, I worked part-time there, learning the industry, from one part to the other. From sweeping to cutting, and so forth. I was working part-time. I was then drafted into the army, spent two years in the army. Sixteen months in Korea, and upon discharge, I went to Lafayette College. While at Lafayette College, I still worked part-time in the factory. I got married, wife, Lorraine, had one son, Archie. I worked part-time at the factory while going to college. And after three years, I decided that I wanted to get back in the industry, and stay in the industry, and make a career out of it. At college, I was taking up industrial engineering. So after three years, I dropped out of college, and went back in the factory full-time. 0 462 The Business GE: And what part of the business were you in? Were you still in children’s?
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 ; JH: Yeah, this was, the business we started was Panzell. P-A-N-Z-E-L-L. We started as a contractor sewing for various New York manufacturers. Okay, we soon grew to about 50 operators, and we had plenty of work at that time. That was back in, like I say, 1962. Soon after that, we bought out the factory that we both worked for previously, Acme Children’s Wear. We bought that factory. We bought it out. So we now had that factory along with ours. My sister then entered the field. My sister, Georgine Banko, she entered the field and became a partner with us. Okay, along with her, my son came into the industry, Archie. He was the cutter. She has two sons ; Donny, who became our mechanic. 0 693 How Did You Learn the Industry? SC: And before I forget, do you see yourself as sort of a looper in the textile industry because you went into your mother’s where she worked and then got to learn the very, I’m thinking of Bethlehem Steel now, you get to learn from the bottom up, and you got to learn the entire industry.
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 ; JH: Absolutely.
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 ; SC: That’s amazing. it really is.
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 ; JH: Absolutely. Well she knew, she had a thorough knowledge of the floor and everything else and how to—business. My mother was business smart, also. And between us, the other aspects of it, the cutting and the shipping, and I began to set-piece rates, and do one thing at a time more and more, I became involved in the business. 0 745 Worker Wages and Discussion about Unions GE: With the labor, was it typically, I guess let’s say minimum wage? For the operators?
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 ; JH: The minimum wage-
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 ; GB: That was for learners. There was also piece-rate. 
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 ; SC: Okay, and it wasn’t unionized?
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 ; JH: No.
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 ; GE: Okay.
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 ; JH: The average wage I think was like 7 dollars or something like that. That’s back in the 80s. In the 70s it was lower than that.
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 ; SC: Yeah.
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 ; JH: But it was, you know, it’s where it all started, the wages.
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 ; GE: Was there much pressure to get it unionized, from union organizers? 
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 ; GB: At times, there was, yes.
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 ; JH: Yeah, there was. We never unionized. Because I always felt if we did, we couldn’t stay in business. That’s one of the things that began to happen. 0 958 Some Businesses Begin Moving South GE: Oh, so where it became much easier to go to Mexico and the whole North America.
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 ; JH: Yeah, the manufacturers in New York would go down, instead of Pennsylvania, would start moving to Mexico and down South. 
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 ; GE: Right.
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 ; SC: Yeah.
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 ; JH: For various reasons, you know the labor I guess was cheaper.
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 ; GE: Right.
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 ; JH: So they began to move down South. 0 1049 Partners GE: And who was the person you were working with?
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 ; JH: That was Atlas Childrenswear, A-T-L-A-S Childrenswear, in New York, and the person’s name was Albert Papa, P-A-P-A. He was in manufacturing, so we had the factories, and he had a showroom up there in New York. So I joined him as a partner, and between us, we would then buy the piece goods, we would showroom-- the buyers would come into the showroom, and we would design our own garments. It was mostly childrenswear at that time. 0 1130 Manufacturer Versus Contractor GE: And you were saying how you define the difference between being the manufacturer versus the contractor, can you just tell us a little bit more about that?
 ; 
 ; JH: Well, the manufacturer buys the piece goods, does the marketing, usually has a showroom, and will send the goods to a contractor who will cut the goods for him. Some cut, some didn’t. And sew it and then send it back, the finished garment, back to the manufacturer’s warehouse, where he would distribute to the stores in retail. Now the manufacturer had all these aspects of it, while the contractor only did sewing. And that basically what, in this area, most of them were. Not all of them, but most of them were only sewing in this area. 0 1378 Why Was Your Business Successful? SC: And the reason that you didn’t sort of fail in those years, is there a reason that you put to it? That you could expand? Was it because you got a partner, was it because you diversified into cutting also?
 ; 
 ; JH: Well, we began working on a shoestring ourselves, you know. We weren’t making much money, you know, everything was, as things began, the competition got tighter. We were able to expand in the beginning because, and we were doing alright because we had automated machinery, too. In other words, we invested in things like this equipment in here, things like, we had an automated loop machine where it set the loops on garments. The girl would just sit there, stand there and she would just put it in the machine, and that was it. It was things like Paul has upstairs there. I mean it became automated anyway, but-
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 ; GB: The main thing was jeans then. 0 1690 Lorraine's Factory Outlets JH: Okay, after we bought the building we were doing everything else and then my wife Lorraine became more or less involved in the business, and we opened up outlet stores. They had three outlet stores at that time also. 
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 ; GE: And this is the 1980s?
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 ; JH: This the 19, Yeah that would be the 1980s.
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 ; SC: What were the names of the factories?
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 ; JH: Lorraine’s Factory Outlets.
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 ; SC: Oh, okay, and where were they located?
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 ; JH: One was in Fountain Hill.
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 ; GB: Palmerton. 0 1787 More About the Business GE: Prior to that, it was, prior to that, how was that hauling done?
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 ; JH: The hauling was done by common carriers.
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 ; GE: Okay, and now you were able to do it through your own truck?
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 ; JH: Yeah we got our own trucks because the trucks would go at least two to three times a week to New York. We’d take a bunch of cut goods up to New York and here in this area, and they’d give them the cut goods to sew, and they’d bring back the finished goods, back to our warehouse. 
 ; 
 ; SC: That’s such a good lesson in business sense too!
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 ; JH: Like I said, the business in the 1980s was good, it continued for us even though there was a slow decline. 
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 ; GE: But you survived fine. 0 2037 Life After the Business GE: Okay, okay. At this point, what did they do? In other words, when you went to this other factory, what did they end up doing?
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 ; JH: Well, my son ended up working. He did two things. He became a game warden, and also he worked for BARC. Bucks County Association of Retarded Citizens. 
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 ; GE: Okay.
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 ; JH: So he had really left the industry at this time. My advice also. Telling him to get out, you know.
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 ; GE: Right, right.
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 ; JH: You can’t stay in this. I keep telling Judy that, but she always wants to come in somehow. I said it’s not for you anymore, but maybe it is. 0 2310 In Business with Paul Reid JH: So anyway he was on the verge of- We left before he closed out. But after that happened, we got out. In the meantime, Paul Reid, this guy you met upstairs, was working for the manufacturer as a- he would place work, his job was placing work and so forth. By the way, he knows the industry in and out. He’s a good person to interview when you can. Him and I then decided, I became good friends with him, and we decided we are going to go in business ourselves, again, we are going to take another crack at it, so we bought this building first. Him and I. Then we had contacts with two girls, one was in Washington, one in San Francisco, another one in Chicago. They were buyers and salespeople for Target. Target stores and Gymboree. 0 2588 Silent Partner JH: And we came down and were, eventually in the beginning, the government said you can only send the cut goods over, that they can only sew over there. Then next they said, now you can send yarn over. Now you can send, they can cut themselves, they can dye themselves. Then the dye houses and everything else began to be set up offshore. And so everything in that went offshore. So in the meantime, we had hired a third party, a money person, who was a signup partner because we needed a lot of money with the manufacturing. And that too after about three-four years ago?
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 ; GB: Yeah.
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 ; JH: Around mid-2000, we decided to, the competition again was too much, too many headaches and everything else, so we decided to-
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 ; SC: So did you lose the silent partner? 
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 ; JH: Yeah, well, we, then again we closed it down, we didn’t lose money at this. I mean, it was a thing where everybody got paid, and we decided that was it. 0 2714 A New Niche Business JH: And what this involves is somebody will come, and they have an idea they want to make a garment, and they don’t know anything about manufacturing or anything of the sort, and where to even start at. So I’ll take the garment, I'll tell them what is going to take, how to go about doing it and so forth. We’ll work, we’ll get a sample made, I’ll send it to another person that makes a sample for us and so forth. And that’s it, we’ll either if they like it then we’ll grade for it, get different sizes and make a little marker and that’s where it goes. And 99% of them, they don’t realize what is involved. They really die before they get started. But some slip through, it’s a tough little business now. 0 2789 Business Description SC: Could you talk a little about this process that you do? Where it starts, and how you go to sending the pattern out to the person who wants to be in this business?
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 ; JH: Well, it starts with a person that’s interested in getting into the clothing line, and usually they are designers. They will come to us and ask how to get going into it, and how to make that first pattern, the first garment. So they either will give us something similar to what they want, maybe a picture or the garment or a drawing, and say this is what we want. From there, we will make the base pattern on card paper by hand. And we’ll make them according to the dimensions, maybe a certain size that they want. Maybe a medium or whatever, or ladies, and we’ll make it into that. And then we’ll have them send, the one that’s asking for it have her send the goods she wants it made on. So she will send us a couple yards of goods, and then we will then send it to a sample maker, a girl we have. They will make that first sample. When the first sample is made, we then will send it to this first-person, or they will stop in here. 0 3259 Changing Composition of Workers Through the Years JH: The apparel industry was at one time the largest employer in Pennsylvania, okay. It was certainly the largest in the Lehigh Valley. The industry and the low wages and so forth because of that 85% of that its unskilled labor, production workers, it’s probably one of the reasons why the labor has been so low, anyway. In the beginning, when we started the business, there were years ago you had different groups of people came into the industry. One time I could imagine way back, it was probably the blacks came into the industry and then maybe-
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 ; GE: You’re saying as workers? As the sewing machine workers?
 ; 
 ; JH: As the sewing machine operators I’m talking about, right. And I guess Italians from immigrants and so forth. It came, that’s how we got, they were busy at that time, and we kept things going. Eventually, it came, and I know with us in those years it was the Portuguese. 0 3374 Factory Owner Demographic GE: How about what you saw as who were the factory owners? Who tended to be the factory owners and why do you think that you and other people that you saw as factory owners? What do you think were some of the characteristics and why was you know that certain types of people or went into this business, were successful in this business?
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 ; JH: You mean the owners?
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 ; GE: Yeah.
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 ; JH: I think then it was probably Jewish and Italians that were mostly in the industry. Not me, I’m Pennsylvania Dutch, but I know when I joined the Association, I eventually became president of it, the Jewish and Italians were primarily in it.
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 ; GE: Why do you think the Jewish and Italians were primarily in it? Any thoughts?
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 ; JH: No.
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 ; GB: I think some of it might have been money, to get started. 0 3646 Connections with Philadelphia? SC: Did you ever have any connections with Philadelphia? Any of the surviving textile clothing places in Philadelphia?
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 ; JH: No.
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 ; SC: It was more of a New York, Lehigh Valley connection.
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 ; JH: Yeah.
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 ; SC: Because it did survive.
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 ; JH: The only thing in Philadelphia I think I ever did was maybe garment washing. Even the laundries, you had laundries that did garment washing, not these little typical laundry.
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 ; GB: They did tie-dye.
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 ; JH: They did tie-dye, your jeans, the slow washing goods, all that stuff.
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 ; SC: Beat them to death.
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 ; JH: Then I would get them all in Philadelphia but even that business . . . if you wanted one of them, you can’t find one. I don’t think there is anything in the United States anymore. Everything is offshore there, even that aspect of it. 0 3844 Apparel Industry Needle-Trade Association JH: Okay, besides being involved with what I just mentioned, those organizations, I was like I said president at the time of the Apparel Industry Needle Trades Association. In that association, this was made up of about 50-60 members of contractors and manufacturers, in the Lehigh Valley area. We would meet once a month. We would have dinner. We’d then have a speaker, usually from the industry, or anything concerning it, or a politician. We’d have dinner, and then we’d have a speaker and then a program, and we’d discuss the industry itself. That Lehigh Valley Needle Trade Association was an active group, and we held, every year, we held a banquet. We would go to Harrisburg and sit with the governor, and he would acclaim an apparel week for the year. It would be apparel week, and in that week, we would hold our banquet and have other activities and so forth. In the banquet we would either have the governor would come sometimes or a congressman or other politician. And we would then have, again, a program. We’d have speech by the president of the association on the state of the industry and so forth. We would have a speaker, and then we would have entertainment. It was high-class entertainment. 0 4355 Impact of Free Trade GE: Free trade.
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 ; JH: Yeah, and before that there was the other act, what was that Act? Anyway, before that was then, let's see . . . from 1978 to 1988, we lost 12,000 apparel jobs in the Lehigh Valley. And my opinion, what happened, the decline came because of the modernization, and the wages, and everything else. But then, the low wages of undeveloped countries, and the government wanted to more or less help them, and the wages became so low there that everything had to go offshore. They brought in these two Acts. I think the Multifiber Act is the other one from 1974 to maybe 2005 or something like that, where they put a limit on quotas importing to countries that were developed from undeveloped countries. It was at first a limit on it, and then in 2005 they put the NAFTA, it was NAFTA, the trades act eliminated these tariffs, I mean quotas, it dropped the tariffs down almost to nothing. Because of that imports came in, and all the flood of the clothing came in from offshore. It practically wiped out the industry. 0 4640 What Do You Value Most in Life? SC: Yeah, I have two filmy questions. Two what the heck is she asking me this for. The first one is, what do you value in life the most? And these are, these are questions I think are really important because it gets into who you are as a person?
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 ; JH: Well, that’s really a good question. I ask myself sometimes, what's it all about. 
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 ; SC: Don’t we all.
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 ; JH: What do I value in life? To tell you the truth, I, the way I am today, I am more content I think than I ever was to be honest with you. Because you know, you get older and it's supposed to get easier, but it doesn’t. You know your health begins to go, you have other problems, and your children and everything else, and financial, that gets harder, but I think, I don’t know about my sister here. But, I’m more content because I’m semi-retired, and I don’t have the pressure anymore. I don’t have the people problems, and the finances and everything else involved. What I value, I don’t know just living my life today as it is, I guess. 0 4845 What Makes You Feel the Most Artistic or Complete in Life? SC: My other question is what makes you feel the most artistic or completed in life? Just in general, what makes you feel most creative, completed, artistic? What's given you the most sense of satisfaction?
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 ; JH: Well, one of them is just being here in this, right here, because we’re on our own. We can come in and go when we want to, do what we want to do. And you know I still have a family, and so does she. She has her own family, and we don’t have the pressures, and we enjoy doing this. We still learn more every day in this industry, really, especially in this apparel and this pattern business, and creating the sizes and so forth. Every day we are just learning more, we get garments you would never dream of, such as the dog clothing. 0 MovingImage Jim Hartzel talks about how his mother, Goldie Hartzell, went from being a worker in a clothes factory to being the forelady, later a silent partner in the business and finally an owner of a contract sewing business with her son, Jim. Goldie and Jim were successful quickly. Within a few years, Jim’s sister (Georgine Banko) and both of their sons entered the business, as well. Jim and Georgine credit their mother with being “business smart.” 
 ; Interview with James Hartzell and Jim's sister, Georgine Banko, March 6, 2012 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is March 6, 2012, interview with James Hartzell, attending Gail Eisenberg and Susan Clemens-Bruder. Should I call you Jim? Jim, could you tell me your full name, where you were born, and just start with that? JIM HARTZEL: Okay, my full name is James W. Hartzell. I was born in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. SC: And can you tell me the year you were born? JH: 1932. SC: 32. And also as far as your family background, as far back as you know-- your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, their names and where they were from, and what they did as far as work will really be helpful just to see a line of work and progress. JH: Okay, my father's name was George. He was a fireman for the city of Bethlehem. My mother's name was Goldie, and she had worked in the factory when I was in high school. And she eventually became a forelady in that same factory and became a part-owner of it, a silent partner. GAIL EISENBERG: What did they make? JH: They make children's clothing. SC: Okay, so she was in the textiles. JH: She was in the textile industry then. SC: And would you repeat the name? JH: Her name was Goldie. SC: No, no, the name of the textile industry JH: It was Acme Children's Wear. SC: Acme? JH: In Fountain Hill. SC: Okay, I've heard of it. GE: Acme A-C-M-E JH: A-C-M-E. Fountain Hill. And she was born in the United States and my father was also. But their parents were from Germany. Pennsylvania Dutch-- my father. And my mother was Hungarian. SC: Do you know what, approximately what year her parents came to the United States? JH: Oh, I don't know. Sis, do you know? GEORGINE BANKO: My mom was born in 1911. So I would say, grammy was born probably around 1905. SC: Okay, that would make sense, yeah. GB: She was only 15. SC: When she came? Wow. Do you know about where in Hungary they came from? GB: Near Budapest but I'm not sure. It was a little village. SC: Yes, and you don't know anything about their parents if they had any background in the industry, or if they were farmers or anything? GB: They were farmers. SC: They were farmers, yeah. So, that was your dad and- JH: That was our mother. GE: That was their mother SC: But your dad was a fireman, do you know what his father did? JH: His father was a-- I guess he was a bartender, wasn't he? GB: I think he worked at the silk mill, too. JH: The silk mill, he worked at the silk mill, that's right. SC: Wow, yeah. JH: Silk mill at Goepp Street. SC: Okay, do you know the name of the silk mill on Goepp Street? JH: No, I wouldn't know the name. SC: We could probably find that out. And, so they were in Bethlehem. Your mother's family came to Bethlehem from Hungary? JH: Correct. SC: And do you know what her father did? JH: No. GB: He died quite young. I don't remember much about him. SC: Oh, okay, yeah. JH: Well, it was hard tracing back ; we did try to trace the family history, but it's lost somewhere. SC: Yeah. Do you know your mother's maiden name? GB: Poczak. JH: Well, that was, oh, our mother? SC: Yeah. JH: Yeah, Poczak. P-O-C-Z-A-K. SC: Okay. And were they connected with any churches or any connections that people might be able to look into within Bethlehem? Any specific religious organizations? Because sometimes they have records. JH: Well, no, they weren't active. Was she active in church? Our mother was. Hetzel: Our mother was, yeah. Saint Stevens Lutheran. JH: We were Saint Stevens Lutheran Church. My grandparents were Lutheran, and my father the same thing. SC: Okay, so both of them were Lutherans? JH: Right. GE: Were both sides involved with Saint Stevens Lutheran Church? JH: Yeah. GE: And is that a Bethlehem church? JH: Bethlehem, yeah. SC: Okay yeah, so that may be a place for researchers to look back into. GE: So, do you know anything about their education? JH: My father was what, 6th grade, I think, so he didn't have much of an education. And my mother, I don't really know either. GB: She was about 8th grade. SC: Then, that was pretty typical. JH: Yeah. SC: It really was. And can you tell me a little bit about your educational background? JH: I graduated in 1950 from high school, and I was shortly drafted into the army. And I went, was sent to Korea, spent 16 months in Korea. In the meantime, while I was working while I was in high school, I was working part-time in a factory. Its Acme Children's Wear in Fountain Hill, I worked part-time there, learning the industry, from one part to the other. From sweeping to cutting, and so forth. I was working part-time. I was then drafted into the army, spent two years in the army. Sixteen months in Korea, and upon discharge, I went to Lafayette College. While at Lafayette College, I still worked part-time in the factory. I got married, wife, Lorraine, had one son, Archie. I worked part-time at the factory while going to college. And after three years, I decided that I wanted to get back in the industry, and stay in the industry, and make a career out of it. At college, I was taking up industrial engineering. So after three years, I dropped out of college, and went back in the factory full-time. In the meantime, my mother was still there, and she was running it as a forelady. So we both worked there a couple of years. I'm going to look at my notes here and see what I did write down for you. Okay, after Lafayette College, like I said I got married, son Archie. My mother was running the factory, and in 1962, my mother and myself decided to go in business. We knew enough about the business as a whole to get into our own business and run it. So we decided to go into business, her and I. We started with 12 sewing machines. Rented out a factory, I remortgage my house, and that's how we started the business. From there, the business began to grow. GE: And what part of the business were you in? Were you still in children's? JH: Yeah, this was, the business we started was Panzell. P-A-N-Z-E-L-L. We started as a contractor sewing for various New York manufacturers. Okay, we soon grew to about 50 operators, and we had plenty of work at that time. That was back in, like I say, 1962. Soon after that, we bought out the factory that we both worked for previously, Acme Children's Wear. We bought that factory. We bought it out. So we now had that factory along with ours. My sister then entered the field. My sister, Georgine Banko, she entered the field and became a partner with us. Okay, along with her, my son came into the industry, Archie. He was the cutter. She has two sons ; Donny, who became our mechanic. GE: Okay, just excuse me, sorry, what is your name? JH: Georgine Banko. SC: And you married to a Banko from. Georgine Banco: Bethlehem. SC: Bethlehem. Were they in the steel industry? GB: No. SC: Okay, were they, they weren't in, and this is a separate tangent, I'm sorry but did they own a business? GB: My husband was an auto mechanic. SC: He was an auto mechanic. JH: So out of the three sons, one ran the cutting room, my son ran the cutting room. Her son, one of her sons, was a mechanic for the factory, and the other one was our accountant. GE: And what are the boys, what are your sons' names? GB: Don was a mechanic. JH: Donald, mechanic. And James as the accountant. Okay, at this time the business was booming. Like I say, we couldn't get enough help. Nobody could get help in the industry. You had ads all over the place trying any way you could possibly to get help for some machine operators and floor help. We had started another factory called Jad, J-A-D, Fashions. That was in Bethlehem. GE: And this is about what year? JH: This was about the early 1970s, I think it was. Okay, and between the three of us and our three sons, we would handle all aspects of the business from mechanics and running back and forth to the so forth. Again like I say we couldn't, the business just kept growing and growing. SC: Do you think that the inability to get people was because of this post-war expansion and people getting jobs out of blue-collar industries and into white-collar industries? JH: Well I think yeah people were beginning to leave the industry, I believe at that time because of the low wage scales and the jobs were plentiful. SC: Yeah. GE: And, unemployment was low. SC: Yeah unemployment was low. JH: 5% something like that. SC: Yeah. JH: So, you know, they didn't come into the industry. That's why eventually, with our association, I'll give you some information on that a bit later ; we had a Vo-Tech course that we sponsored, just to train operators and so forth. SC: At Bethlehem Vo-Tech [Bethlehem Area Vocational-Technical School]? JH: Bethlehem Vo-Tech. They did other things besides training operators, but that was part of the focus, to bring people into the industry. SC: And before I forget, do you see yourself as sort of a looper in the textile industry because you went into your mother's where she worked and then got to learn the very, I'm thinking of Bethlehem Steel now, you get to learn from the bottom up, and you got to learn the entire industry. JH: Absolutely. SC: That's amazing. it really is. JH: Absolutely. Well she knew, she had a thorough knowledge of the floor and everything else and how to--business. My mother was business smart, also. And between us, the other aspects of it, the cutting and the shipping, and I began to set-piece rates, and do one thing at a time more and more, I became involved in the business. SC: Yeah. JH: But that's where it started, with these other factories and so forth. GE: With the labor, was it typically, I guess let's say minimum wage? For the operators? JH: The minimum wage- GB: That was for learners. There was also piece-rate. SC: Okay, and it wasn't unionized? JH: No. GE: Okay. JH: The average wage I think was like 7 dollars or something like that. That's back in the 80s. In the 70s it was lower than that. SC: Yeah. JH: But it was, you know, it's where it all started, the wages. GE: Was there much pressure to get it unionized, from union organizers? GB: At times, there was, yes. JH: Yeah, there was. We never unionized. Because I always felt if we did, we couldn't stay in business. That's one of the things that began to happen. SC: And the association helped that? JH: No, our association was both union members and non-union. Now, with the Atlantic Apparel, I understand it was a different association. They were union members. GE: Atlantic Apparel. Who was Atlantic Apparel? JH: That was-- SC: Delin. JH: Delin. GE: Oh, oh, oh, oh. JH: I think Delin was running that then. GE: Okay he did have one first then he became involved with this. JH: Yeah. GB: Then our girls decided they didn't want a union, and they were being pressurized, so they formed an inside union amongst themselves. GE: Okay, that's interesting. JH: They formed a company union for our factory. SC: Oh, interesting. JH: The competition became when you had trouble getting help, and the wages were beginning to be lowered. The industry began to move down south because there were non-union shops. Here there was mostly union shops, to stay, we didn't have a union, except the company union. But like I said to stay afloat we had to give all the benefits, if not more than the union did. We at one time were giving them what, twelve paid holidays, GB: And 3 to 4 weeks vacation. JH: 3 to 5 weeks. We would give, gave 3 to 5 weeks vacation. More than what the union was giving-- what they were pushing for. SC: Yeah. JH: Anyway, the business began to move down South, so that was the first step of it moving out ; the competition and so forth, and modernization and factories combining, and other reasons that you lost the help. GE: Would you say this is mid-1970s? Just to have a time frame. JH: That was, well, the industry began to decline in the 70s. But, you didn't see a real decline until around I guess until the late 80s, early 90s, then you saw a real decline. And that's because in the 90s other trade barriers came into effect. The government put these trade--NAFTA and another one that they-- GE: Oh, so where it became much easier to go to Mexico and the whole North America. JH: Yeah, the manufacturers in New York would go down, instead of Pennsylvania, would start moving to Mexico and down South. GE: Right. SC: Yeah. JH: For various reasons, you know the labor I guess was cheaper. GE: Right. JH: So they began to move down South. SC: And there was a good exchange up to Canada even I guess, I don't know if there were any textile industries at this point up in Canada, but I mean our exchange rate was so good in the 90s. JH: You mean the money rate? SC: The money rate, yeah. GE: Right that it was strong here- SC: It was strong here and weaker then as opposed to now JH: Anyway, all this time, we were contractors. My sister and I, my mother, you know, like I said we were in this business. And then I was approached with an individual from New York, to join him in manufacturing. Which I did, so I became then a manufacturer instead of a contractor. GE: And this is about when? When did this occur? JH: This occurred oh I guess this was. GB: The 80s sometime, I think. JH: Probably late 80s. GE: And who was the person you were working with? JH: That was Atlas Childrenswear, A-T-L-A-S Childrenswear, in New York, and the person's name was Albert Papa, P-A-P-A. He was in manufacturing, so we had the factories, and he had a showroom up there in New York. So I joined him as a partner, and between us, we would then buy the piece goods, we would showroom-- the buyers would come into the showroom, and we would design our own garments. It was mostly childrenswear at that time. We would design our own garments. Buyers would come into the showroom, and they would place orders. We had more orders again and that you couldn't handle. And the work that went to our three factories down here, to our contractors. That even expanded to about ten more contractors in the New York area, small contractors, and maybe ten more in this area that we would send the work out to. GE: Okay so you were doing, you were not only filling your own factories business, but you were going beyond that to other contractors. JH: At least ten in New York and ten here, something like that. GE: Wow. And you were saying how you define the difference between being the manufacturer versus the contractor, can you just tell us a little bit more about that? JH: Well, the manufacturer buys the piece goods, does the marketing, usually has a showroom, and will send the goods to a contractor who will cut the goods for him. Some cut, some didn't. And sew it and then send it back, the finished garment, back to the manufacturer's warehouse, where he would distribute to the stores in retail. Now the manufacturer had all these aspects of it, while the contractor only did sewing. And that basically what, in this area, most of them were. Not all of them, but most of them were only sewing in this area. SC: And originally, were they called oftentimes, maybe not specifically Allentown, but in the region, shirtwaist companies? In the earlier years? JH: Called what? SC: Shirtwaist companies. JH: I don't know. SC: No, okay, because I know there were, especially up in near Hazelton and that area, there were a lot of shirtwaist companies, also sewing factories, there were a lot of sewing factories. JH: See a lot of people, didn't know really the difference between a contractor and a manufacturer. Like I say, the contractor didn't own the piece work, didn't own the garments ; all they did was sew. Some, like I say some in this area were, most in this area were that. But, there were a few manufacturers. Anyway, the business was still growing then. Then we purchased this equipment that we have there. Then my daughter in law, Judy Hartzell, joined the company. And she became a pattern maker, grader, designer, and so forth, working what my sister now does. Now she was brought into the fold. GE: That's around 1990 or still in the 80s? JH: That was in the 80s I guess, the late 80s. Then, I guess the business was growing all around, and we needed more factories and more work and so forth and we kept, you know, kept expanding, to the point, and then, in the meantime, in the 70s, the decline had started. But it wasn't affecting us really. The decline that began then was the wages, and it began to move down south. And factories were automated and new machinery, and we needed to cut help at that time. We kept expanding, and things were going alright until, well let's see, the early 1980s, now that when things were probably at a peak. Then my partner in New York and I, then my mother, bought a building at Fountain Hill. A two-story building and from that building we then began to do all the cutting and receiving of goods from the factories, inside that building on the second floor. And the first floor was all sewing. So that was our operation, it was centralized there. Except the showrooms in New York. So we had that showrooms in New York and so forth. And in the meantime there was another line that was opened up, it was called Georgi Girl Sportswear, Georgi Girl. And that we made large-sized clothing for women, for what was Layne Bryant and so forth that we would make goods for. SC: And the reason that you didn't sort of fail in those years, is there a reason that you put to it? That you could expand? Was it because you got a partner, was it because you diversified into cutting also? JH: Well, we began working on a shoestring ourselves, you know. We weren't making much money, you know, everything was, as things began, the competition got tighter. We were able to expand in the beginning because, and we were doing alright because we had automated machinery, too. In other words, we invested in things like this equipment in here, things like, we had an automated loop machine where it set the loops on garments. The girl would just sit there, stand there and she would just put it in the machine, and that was it. It was things like Paul has upstairs there. I mean it became automated anyway, but GB: The main thing was jeans then. JH: They were making jeans. That's what made it hard. That's another reason. It was a hard garment. GE: Yeah, a lot of operations on it SC: And in the 70s, jeans, oh my goodness GE: That became so popular SC: Yes that was so popular GE: Were there a lot of places that couldn't make jeans, and you were one of the few that could? JH: I don't think there were any in this whole area. GE: Okay, okay, so that gave you a competitive advantage. JH: And then there were things that would pop up and like I remember Davey Crocket back to those days. Everything became Davey Crocket. We put a screen printing on a pocket, and it would sell before, as many as you could buy. GB: And the fringe on the pocket too. JH: And the styles would change, it became from straight legs to bell-bottoms, and everybody was buying bell bottoms. All this made the industry. You know, it made us, those were the reasons. SC: So you had a sense of where the market was going and what you should- JH: We could do it right away. GE: Because you were both manufacturer and factory? Do you think in other words, do you think that helped, as the manufacturer, you received some of the trends quicker? You weren't just being given the order, but you were being able to be a little bit ahead of it. JH: Well we hired eventually sales reps, and they had their own sales office, and I know one of them would go, like every year, he would go to France and this and that and pick up the latest trends and so forth, and we'd then design the garments for the coming trends. And it worked, it worked, yeah. SC: Did you ever have any connection with Hess's because they were always trying to be in the cutting edge of products. And did you have any connections with people who might have worked with Hess's on what the cutting edge was? JH: No. SC: No, and that was just a complete, I never thought of that before question, that maybe there was some connection. Thank you. GE: The kind of product that you were making, the jeans, were they store brand or like, you know, whose label was it? JH: It was our label. GE: So you were, okay, so what was your name? JH: Our name then was Atlas Childrenswear. GE: Okay, and this was primarily children's? JH: Children's, strictly children's. GE: Okay, so it was strictly children, right, and these were being sold in which stores? JH: In department stores all over the area. GE: Okay, okay. JH: We had no major, big, at that time, no major accounts. I mean the department stores, Walmarts, it was all the individual department stores. GE: Right, okay. And you feel that part of what also what helped you in the 80s is your operation became much more capital intensive, so you used a lot more machinery, and a lot less labor? JH: Right. GE: Okay. JH: So getting back to that, with the manufacturer and the contractors, see that's one of the big differences, too. A manufacturer has to buy the materials, and lay the money out, and wait for the money to come back after the goods are sold. Where a contractor gets paid from the manufacturer usually within ten days upon delivering those goods. So there was a big difference. I remember as we went into the manufacturing, we ended up working with Target and Mervyns and some of these large stores, and by the time the order came in, and then we had to make the goods, and send it overseas and everything else, and then they would want their terms like after they received it, like 60 days. Because they could dictate terms. These big stores could tell you they was 30, 60, or 90, and you're going to have to accept it. And it would be six months for the money to turn around, so you had to invest a lot of money. SC: But did that make you survive? Just because you had a manufacturer partner and he was the contractor? JH: Well let's go on with this. SC: Okay sure. JH: Okay, after we bought the building we were doing everything else and then my wife Lorraine became more or less involved in the business, and we opened up outlet stores. They had three outlet stores at that time also. GE: And this is the 1980s? JH: This the 19, Yeah that would be the 1980s. SC: What were the names of the factories? JH: Lorraine's Factory Outlets. SC: Oh, okay, and where were they located? JH: One was in Fountain Hill. GB: Palmerton. JH: Palmerton. And up there in- GB: I can't think of that, by the flea market place. JH: Yeah the flea market up there, it was like -- anyway there were three. Palmerton was one, Fountain Hill was another, and Emmaus or something. SC: Not in the Poconos. JH: Where that race track used to be up there. SC: Umm. GE: Nazareth. SC: Oh, Nazareth, of course, that makes sense, so smart. JH: It was Nazareth, Fountain Hill, and Palmerton. SC: Yeah. GE: And I assumed that helped the lot, did it just help to kind of offset or complement the other business. JH: Well, yeah, it offset. It didn't complement. It was another business. Because then we through that business, we bought two trucks and began hauling for the other business with the piece goods, to New York and back and forth, and so forth. GE: Prior to that, it was, prior to that, how was that hauling done? JH: The hauling was done by common carriers. GE: Okay, and now you were able to do it through your own truck? JH: Yeah we got our own trucks because the trucks would go at least two to three times a week to New York. We'd take a bunch of cut goods up to New York and here in this area, and they'd give them the cut goods to sew, and they'd bring back the finished goods, back to our warehouse. SC: That's such a good lesson in business sense too! JH: Like I said, the business in the 1980s was good, it continued for us even though there was a slow decline. GE: But you survived fine. JH: Yeah, up until then, yeah. And like I said, the decline was caused by again, the modernization, the wages, competition, merging of mills, and so forth. Anyway, we stayed in the business because of, to be honest with you, because of her sons and my son and everybody else. In the meantime, my mother had passed away, and my wife had passed away, too. We, because of the family involved and everything else, we held on to the business. We saw the decline come. It came in New York, the showrooms, and then our factories here, and it was getting less and less, and we began to lose money until we ended up like most of these other people in the area, we lost everything. So we came from one time very, more or less wealthy, and then nothing. So anyway, then along came this guy upstairs Paul Reid. And I was, after the closing of the factories, I went to work in the cutting room and my sister, then, we set this up here. GE: And this is about when? JH: This was about the early 19.. GB: No mom died in 95, it was right about 96, 97. JH: Because we shut, when did we shut the mill? - 94 we shut down. 94 we finally shut down. We paid all our debts. We didn't file bankruptcy. GB: And we didn't stick anybody. JH: We didn't stick anybody. We paid everything but doing that we were broke. So you know we kept this part of the business, and I went to work at another factory. SC: So let's repeat that in 1994 you went to another place to run the cutting room? JH: Yeah, then after closing down we went to another factory and ran the cutting room. And we still have this equipment with us, my sister and I. We took this with us over there. And I ran the cutting room, and she ran the markers and the grating and everything else, with these machines, for that factory. SC: What was the name of that factory? Do you remember where it was? I could look that up. I could look that up in Allentown books. JH: Well that was, umm... SC: It will come to you. GE: And I was just wondering, how old were your children at this point? Your children had been in the business already for a while. In their 50s? No, they would have been much younger.. in their 40s? JH: Well they, when they were with us they were in their thirties, really. GE: Right so let's say by 1995, that you were trying to hold onto this for the next generation. JH: Right. GB: They were in their forties. GE: Okay, okay. At this point, what did they do? In other words, when you went to this other factory, what did they end up doing? JH: Well, my son ended up working. He did two things. He became a game warden, and also he worked for BARC. Bucks County Association of Retarded Citizens. GE: Okay. JH: So he had really left the industry at this time. My advice also. Telling him to get out, you know. GE: Right, right. JH: You can't stay in this. I keep telling Judy that, but she always wants to come in somehow. I said it's not for you anymore, but maybe it is. And her sons, one was an accountant from the beginning, he stayed an accountant and still is. And the other one is right now, where did he go to work? GB: He went to work for cable companies, he was installing satellites. JH: Cables, he got on with that too. GH: And he had his own construction company. GE: Okay. SC: With skills, you can do anything. JH: So then, anyway, like I say I went to work for this r cutting factory, and she ran the room for that, we did quite well then, my sister and I. This factory was busy yet, and other ones were closing down, and one of the reasons that he was busy is because... GE: Everything else closed down. JH: Well, not only that he got tied in with a big manufacturer, and he was hiring illegals, and this sorta thing, and maybe you read about it, but he did get raided. GB: (inaudible . . . Sportswear) JH: You know what, he had different names. GB: Yeah so that's why we can't remember. SC: Oh that's true if he's hiring illegals, yeah. JH: And he had illegals, and I remember one day they, it was raided by the... GB: INS. JH: The INS, immigration and GE: When was this about? When was this about 2000? GB: At least 2000. JH: Yeah that had to be early. GB: Early 2000. JH: Yeah around 2000, yeah. GE: Around 2000, yeah. JH: And he was, half of them got hauled away and everything else. You know he was, that's who he hired. SC: So many people did that. GE: I was just going to say, was that happening? JH: Yeah, you were forced to. Unfortunately, that's what it's coming back to, with these little factories that are still around. SC: Yeah. JH: Not like Paul upstairs. They are legitimate, they go by everything they should be, and they are lucky they have the accounts they do. But there are still these little factories around, who knows how they are operating. SC: Plus it was so many people's history ; they work for sweatshops. That's American history, but-- GE: Who was this firm? Who was the owner of this firm? JH: Jacob . . . was his last name? We should look it up somewhere. SC: Well we can look that up, we can definitely, we can go back in the Morning Call. GE: But what was the name? SC: They were raided, we can find it. JH: Yeah, they were raided ; it was a big thing at that time. SC: Yeah. GE: I don't remember, did they go under as a result? JH: Yeah. GB: He was deported. He's over in . . . JH: Yeah, the one owning it or running it, he paid cash with everybody. Everybody except us, we were smart enough. You know, we did work for him but here are the checks. So we stayed clear of everything but those other people that worked for him, half of them were illegals, and they paid cash and everything else. SC: Was he from Mexico himself? GB: He was from the Middle East. JH: Egypt. SC: Oh, okay. GB: A lot of the illegals were Syrian. JH: A lot of the illegals were Syrian. GB: Lebanese. SC: Makes so much sense. JH: So anyway he was on the verge of- We left before he closed out. But after that happened, we got out. In the meantime, Paul Reid, this guy you met upstairs, was working for the manufacturer as a- he would place work, his job was placing work and so forth. By the way, he knows the industry in and out. He's a good person to interview when you can. Him and I then decided, I became good friends with him, and we decided we are going to go in business ourselves, again, we are going to take another crack at it, so we bought this building first. Him and I. Then we had contacts with two girls, one was in Washington, one in San Francisco, another one in Chicago. They were buyers and salespeople for Target. Target stores and Gymboree. GE: Oh, yeah JH: So through them, and with our knowledge, we began to set up a business of manufacturing for Target stores. And we began to do that here. We first started buying finished pieces. Like those rolls up there, and cutting the work. We knew now at this time we can't compete with labor because now the labor from overseas was so low that you couldn't even think of making it here. For the same garments, you couldn't sell them. So we cut the goods here, and send it overseas, we went over there, him or I, went to Haiti and set up a factory over there. We didn't buy it or anything, we just got a contact and sent the goods over there, and they made the goods for us, and sent it back. We would have to send container loads over. In fact, there's a picture up on that wall, of our first container coming back on the other end, coming back from Haiti. So they would sew the goods for us, bring it back here, we'd put it in the warehouse here, inspect it and so forth. We had people working for inspecting and so forth, but no sewing, and we'd send it to the stores. Even that competition became more and more. Now the competition was from other factories, other manufacturers, other countries that the goods start going from Haiti, Dominican, Honduras. Even they became, as the labor went up in these countries, we moved to other countries and so forth. Competition became stiffer yet, so we then began to buy the cotton and converting the goods ourselves, we then had to buy the cotton, take the fibers and convert it into yarn and then we would send the yarn then to a weaving house, finish it then to make the piece goods. Whatever we were making, woven and knits at that time, and then from there we would send it to a finishing house, the piece goods, and then back here we would cut it. Then we'd send the cutwork offshore to be sold. Now, as an example, I think for a garment at that time, a little t-shirt was maybe 12 dollars a dozen labor in the United States. We were able to make it oversees in Haiti and Dominican for 3 dollars a dozen, and that included the shipping over and . . . GE: That included the shipping? JH: That included the shipping and the insurance. So that was the big difference. It was so cheap for us and that's what began to happen going back to the decline of the industry. The wages start going down, and they move to Mexico, and so forth, the manufacturers start shipping to be made overseas. Instead of sewing factories in the United States GE: Oh, the manufacturers just went directly. JH: The manufacturers were now beginning to go directly over there just like we did, so now you eliminated the sewing here and in this country. GE: Right! JH: And we came down and were, eventually in the beginning, the government said you can only send the cut goods over, that they can only sew over there. Then next they said, now you can send yarn over. Now you can send, they can cut themselves, they can dye themselves. Then the dye houses and everything else began to be set up offshore. And so everything in that went offshore. So in the meantime, we had hired a third party, a money person, who was a signup partner because we needed a lot of money with the manufacturing. And that too after about three-four years ago? GB: Yeah. JH: Around mid-2000, we decided to, the competition again was too much, too many headaches and everything else, so we decided to- SC: So did you lose the silent partner? Yeah, well, we, then again we closed it down, we didn't lose money at this. I mean, it was a thing where everybody got paid, and we decided that was it. GE: And that was a few years ago? JH: Yeah, that was only a few years ago. SC: Was the silent partner really silent? Are you allowed to say? JH: No, he was silent. SC: Silent. Okay, so you can't say his name. Just was investing. JH: Yeah, he was the money person at that time. SC: Next time we'll know not to ask that. JH: No, that's alright. So we eventually cut it down, we kept the building there, and we kept this part of it then, her and I have been here doing this, and like I say working with entrepreneurs. GE: And is this just let's say the last two or three years that you're doing this now, the two of you? JH: Yeah, this is about, maybe the last five years, yeah. GE: Okay. JH: And what this involves is somebody will come, and they have an idea they want to make a garment, and they don't know anything about manufacturing or anything of the sort, and where to even start at. So I'll take the garment, I'll tell them what is going to take, how to go about doing it and so forth. We'll work, we'll get a sample made, I'll send it to another person that makes a sample for us and so forth. And that's it, we'll either if they like it then we'll grade for it, get different sizes and make a little marker and that's where it goes. And 99% of them, they don't realize what is involved. They really die before they get started. But some slip through, it's a tough little business now. GH: We went from making jeans to making dog clothes SC: They can be small and intricate, that's very difficult. GE: It's interesting because the pets, it is a big thing. It's a really big thing today, I'm amazed because I don't have a pet, so I'm amazed, but it is, it's part of the family. SC: Could you talk a little about this process that you do? Where it starts, and how you go to sending the pattern out to the person who wants to be in this business? JH: Well, it starts with a person that's interested in getting into the clothing line, and usually they are designers. They will come to us and ask how to get going into it, and how to make that first pattern, the first garment. So they either will give us something similar to what they want, maybe a picture or the garment or a drawing, and say this is what we want. From there, we will make the base pattern on card paper by hand. And we'll make them according to the dimensions, maybe a certain size that they want. Maybe a medium or whatever, or ladies, and we'll make it into that. And then we'll have them send, the one that's asking for it have her send the goods she wants it made on. So she will send us a couple yards of goods, and then we will then send it to a sample maker, a girl we have. They will make that first sample. When the first sample is made, we then will send it to this first-person, or they will stop in here. And they will put it on, see if it's the way they want it made, and how it fits. If they like it, they will tell us now we want it, from this is a size medium, now we want it from maybe extra small to extra large. We will then with our equipment here, grade it then from one size up to the other. Then if it goes beyond that, it's into the, when they buy piece goods, and we know the width of the goods, we make these markers, and the markers then will go to the factories to cut, but they're all such small, and I advise any of these entrepreneurs to start small. Pay more, and start small, because if it doesn't take off, you aren't going to lose that much. And they think that they have to make 500 garments and you don't know if it's going to sell. To be honest with you, they have trouble. They don't know how to market it first before they get going with it. And this is where we come in, also, by trying to advise them what it's going to involve, what money you are going to need, and how to make up a job description plan and how to go about getting the loan. They're going to need money and everything else, and what it involves. Sometimes when they know what it involves, it ends, because they just don't know. But some are, they have enough sense to go slow. We have a couple of them right now that are going slow with paying more for a couple of garments and seeing how it sells, and it may work for them. GE: Now you take care of the beginning part? The actual, let's say they want to make 50. Is that when you then help them contract that out someplace? You don't do that anymore, right? JH: No, in fact, I have to watch one girl at work, I gave her a price, I go into the factory then, and say this is the garment we want, how much is it going to be to make 25? How much is it to make 50? How much is it to make 100? And then, we'd be getting into the big time, a thousand garments or so. But again, when it ever gets there, my advice to any of these girls or who's involved, if you get to the big time, go offshore. You can't make it here in the states. SC: Do you charge a fee for the advice, or do you just charge what they actually get from you? JH: Well, sometimes I charge a fee for advice, and sometimes I don't. We'll help them. We're here to help them. We're not individuals that don't want to tell you what we know. Because it doesn't matter anymore, we'll tell you anything we know. So I'll give them my advice, and we'll help them. We will place the work for them, and help them. Like right now we have a girl, she's doing 25 at a time, these dog things and the other ones doing the tops, and they are paying more because of that, but they have their internet sales and see how it works. SC: Is this the model? JH: She's one of them. GE: I'm curious, how do you find your clients or how do they find you? JH: Here's even a hat we make for them, the dogs. This visor hat. GE: I have a friend who recently got, I forget what kind of dog, a havanese I think, anyway, got two little havanese, she was like, for me I don't have dogs, so it's hard for me to quite understand it all, but she said she just can't wait to go to the store and be able to buy some clothes, and I was like, oh my God. JH: There's little jackets right there for a boy dog. SC: That's adorable. GE: So how do they find you? How do you develop the clients and they find you? JH: We don't advertise. We don't even have, I think, a number in the phone book. We're not really, to be honest with you, not, I don't know what would happen if I put it on the internet and advertise. I'd probably, I don't know, maybe nothing, maybe we'd have too much business. We don't want too much. We're both semi-retired, so when we get- GE: You just like a little bit. JH: Yeah a little bit here and there, it's enough to like keep going. GE: What I didn't know was like let's say, in other words, do you attend anything in terms of something where you are likely to meet people who are starting off in, you know as entrepreneurs or chambers of commerce. JH: The only thing I do anymore is I go to the New York shows. . . the piece good show and so forth once a year, I'll go there, but not to meet people. Just to keep myself up on the industry. So I'll spend the day up there and so forth. Because there are different types of materials that have come along today. But we don't advertise. But we do. . . just when one goes another one seems to come in, and I don't know where they come from. We just got a phone call from, I think, Detroit, and the one girl that we work with now is Connecticut. GE: Okay so how they heard of you, you're not even sure. Wow. SC: That's really interesting. JH: But like I say it's, it's the way we want it almost. GE: No, I understand, I was just curious. SC: So do you have any other, did we miss any other business questions? Do you have more? Do you have more stuff? JH: Well, no that's my personal, but you know, there's my thoughts on what the industry was and why it's [inaudible] SC: Great, yes, please, please. JH: Well I'm gonna go off my notes then. GE: Great, fine, absolutely. JH: The apparel industry was at one time the largest employer in Pennsylvania, okay. It was certainly the largest in the Lehigh Valley. The industry and the low wages and so forth because of that 85% of that its unskilled labor, production workers, it's probably one of the reasons why the labor has been so low, anyway. In the beginning, when we started the business, there were years ago you had different groups of people came into the industry. One time I could imagine way back, it was probably the blacks came into the industry and then maybe- GE: You're saying as workers? As the sewing machine workers? JH: As the sewing machine operators I'm talking about, right. And I guess Italians from immigrants and so forth. It came, that's how we got, they were busy at that time, and we kept things going. Eventually, it came, and I know with us in those years it was the Portuguese. GB: We were fortunate with that, we had some great Portuguese workers. JH: Great workers. SC: In Bethlehem. Wow. GB: Absolutely. JH: They were among the best ever, these girls, anyway that what we had mainly at this time, was Portuguese. And then from there or even before then, I guess, it was the Puerto Ricans were in the factories, and then the Portuguese came in, then eventually the Vietnamese, the Koreans and Chinese, which are in it mostly now. So the industry did change, and so the average girl isn't going to go into the industry because they complete college and high school, and they don't come back in the industry. GE: How about what you saw as who were the factory owners? Who tended to be the factory owners and why do you think that you and other people that you saw as factory owners? What do you think were some of the characteristics and why was you know that certain types of people or went into this business, were successful in this business? JH: You mean the owners? GE: Yeah. JH: I think then it was probably Jewish and Italians that were mostly in the industry. Not me, I'm Pennsylvania Dutch, but I know when I joined the Association, I eventually became president of it, the Jewish and Italians were primarily in it. GE: Why do you think the Jewish and Italians were primarily in it? Any thoughts? JH: No. GB: I think some of it might have been money, to get started. JH: Well, you see, starting a business in the apparel business was fairly cheap at that time. You know you bought a couple of machines and had work and had the contacts, it was really a cheap business to get into until the automation came and everything else. I guess because probably you could say because they were hustlers, I don't know. They had more gumption than anybody else. GE: Entrepreneurs. JH: Yeah, they went into the business and gave it a shot. It's easy, you know it's the same old thing, if you don't try, you'll never know. SC: Right, did you ever hear any stories about people's families being relegated, who were Jewish, relegated to being tailors and some other industries in Europe? JH: Yep. GE: That they already knew the business because they were tailors and weavers. JH: Well GE: They were the tradesmen of that type. JH: Well the tradesmen, this business started, I guess. The manufacturing really started, got heavy in New York is when the civil war, when they needed uniforms for it, that's when it really started. Before that it was all handmade and made from things at home. Then they had to have some factories started because of the clothing. GE: So then they were a lot of the tailors--the Italians, and Jews JH: Yeah, I imagine that they were doing it at home and so forth. Doing their own knitting, the piece goods and so forth, and sewing, you know, whatever they do to make the clothing. SC: Are there any factories in Rosetta, still? Because I think of Rosetta, which was almost one village, relocating into that village. GE: Where was Rosetta? SC: It's up in... it's not far from here. GB: Up in the coal regions. SC: Coal regions, yeah. JH: Like 15 miles away? SC: Yeah. JH: Well, there were a lot of factories up in that area. See at one time there were, I think in the Lehigh Valley, I think it was 4000 people we employed, something like that, like 150 factories. SC: Wow yeah, amazing. GE: So the typical factory had only maybe, well I mean there were small ones, that they may have just had 5, 10, 20. JH: Yeah, probably the average factory there was maybe 10, 25, something like that. GE: How many people did you have, at the largest, how many employees did you have? JH: Well, we had about, I would say, two to three hundred. Not counting the contractors I worked with. GE: Right, just your own employees. And would you say that a lot of it sounded like, a lot of what you would attribute your success is how many family members were involved? I remember you said it was your mom, the two of you, your son, her two sons, and so you had a lot of family members, you know really looking after every part of it. SC: Did you ever have any connections with Philadelphia? Any of the surviving textile clothing places in Philadelphia? JH: No. SC: It was more of a New York, Lehigh Valley connection. JH: Yeah. SC: Because it did survive. JH: The only thing in Philadelphia I think I ever did was maybe garment washing. Even the laundries, you had laundries that did garment washing, not these little typical laundry. GB: They did tie-dye. JH: They did tie-dye, your jeans, the slow washing goods, all that stuff. SC: Beat them to death. JH: Then I would get them all in Philadelphia but even that business . . . if you wanted one of them, you can't find one. I don't think there is anything in the United States anymore. Everything is offshore there, even that aspect of it. SC: Do you have anything else in your notes that we interrupted you with? JH: Well let's see where we are at. Okay, and anyway we know that there's many aspects of it. Not only the sewing, there's the shipping and the management, and office workers, and there's truck drivers and so forth. I always felt they never realized what's all involved in the apparel industry, not always sewing. But anyway, in this area at one time we had the contractors like I said at one time we had them, the manufacturers, the company that would make the goods, we had your dye houses, and we had finishing things. And we had your jobbers and your guys that would handle the scraps and everything else. We had everything here. Today, all I know that probably left in this area is small factories dotted here and there. And someone like Paul and the reason he's busy is because he works for a company like Under Armour, who is 90% offshore. But if they need something fast, he'll get it or repairs from offshore. By the way, when we began to working offshore, we found many other problems too which contributed to us coming back was the work wasn't good. And we had to end up going to Haiti and Dominican, flying there and staying down there a couple of days. We ended up hiring a person down there to work for us and stay in the mill all day long. And still we would get the work back and the color- and still I guess that problem is today with going offshore. GE: Right, but it's still-- Unfortunately, I guess what your saying is even with all that headache. It was still worth it. JH: Yeah, that's why these companies, that's why they are. That's where they are-- There's no doubt about it. It's how they can survive. Okay, besides being involved with what I just mentioned, those organizations, I was like I said president at the time of the Apparel Industry Needle Trades Association. In that association, this was made up of about 50-60 members of contractors and manufacturers, in the Lehigh Valley area. We would meet once a month. We would have dinner. We'd then have a speaker, usually from the industry, or anything concerning it, or a politician. We'd have dinner, and then we'd have a speaker and then a program, and we'd discuss the industry itself. That Lehigh Valley Needle Trade Association was an active group, and we held, every year, we held a banquet. We would go to Harrisburg and sit with the governor, and he would acclaim an apparel week for the year. It would be apparel week, and in that week, we would hold our banquet and have other activities and so forth. In the banquet we would either have the governor would come sometimes or a congressman or other politician. And we would then have, again, a program. We'd have speech by the president of the association on the state of the industry and so forth. We would have a speaker, and then we would have entertainment. It was high-class entertainment. Maybe 300 people would attend, which was, the banquet was open to anybody in the industry. It could be the factory workers and the owners. We would have the entertainment, then dancing afterward. So it was a really big time for the industry. The same week, we would have a fashion show, and there would be an open house at the Vo-Tech school, and we would have open houses at the factories. Anyway, the association itself sponsored the Vo-Tech school, and the purpose then was to bring people into our industry. And they taught sewing in these schools, and we taught pattern making, designing and so forth. And the pupils, the girls in the school would design their own, design something for the fashion show, the yearly fashion show. They would design something themselves. They would then cut the goods out and sew it themselves and wear it in the fashion show. Awards would be awarded by the association, to the winners in there . . . at the show. Now all the materials for the goods, the fashions, were supplied by members of the association. The machinery in the Vo-Tech schools was supplied by the members of the association. We even had a CAD with- GE: CAD CAM. JH: CAD CAM, we had this kind of equipment in there donated by the Gerber company, to the school. So we had a good cross-section and then, but the main thing is that's how you get people into it including operators, which was getting harder and harder to get. GE: Were you able to get them? Since the operators were the very lowest skill and lowest paid, were you able to get more of the higher, the pattern makers or the machine, the CAD CAM programmers, like did you feel it was pretty successful that way with what you were doing? JH: Well, things began to happen in the school that I always saw. That was everybody wanted to be a fashion designer. Nobody wanted to be a sewing machine operator. GE: Right, but how about the printmaker and the CAD-CAM? JH: Well, that was always hard to get somebody because they were so complicated. But I don't think the teacher even knew enough eventually. In fact we would hire the Vo-Tech teachers then, too. We would not hire, we would suggest who did get hired. The Association, our association would. And then we would teach the teachers off some of these units, and so forth. So the school worked, you know, it was good. It was good for a while but again it's how much it brought in the . . . eventually it began to phase out too because its people didn't want to be sewing machine operators anymore. GE: And was this just Bethlehem Vo-Tech or was it, Lehigh? JH: It was Bethlehem Vo-Tech, then Lehigh county Vo-Tech had a course. And then we also had a course- GE: Bucks. JH: No. But other associations I'm sure did. But we had, then we had a mechanics course in Miller Heights, for mechanics that we sponsored also. And then again the Association was, and then we would meet, and if somebody needed a certain machine that the other factory didn't have, we would help each other. If one person had too much work, he'd tell them, and it's just we'd work together. GE: Right, does the association still exist? JH: No. The Association, it held on I guess longer than anything even when the industry went down but- GE: Okay so the small little factories now there's no Association? JH: No. GE: When did that end about ten years ago? Or even earlier? JH: The Association, I imagine that's probably about ten years. GE: Yeah, you have to have enough members. JH: So we would hire the students from the school, bring them into our factories. Train during the summer months, maybe put them in the factory for a week or two and so forth. Anyway, in our association, we served on other committees. That's why I would be on maybe the private industry council or this and that. The economic development I was on that board, too. GE: Lehigh Valley Economic Development Corporation. JH: Allentown. GE: Yeah. Allentown Economic Development Corporation. JH: Okay, and then, like I said we held this apparel week, which consisted of the banquet like I mentioned, and the Vo-Tech and so forth. And we would give out scholarships in the schools and have open houses and so forth, all week. SC: And were the scholarships for? JH: For the students who were mostly in the fashion design. SC: The fashion design, yeah. JH: The ones who made the best design, the best clothing and so forth. Really basically I think that's the schools. And I don't think we want to get into the declining industry and all that other stuff. We all know it was a booming area, we know that it employed thousands of people, there were many job opportunities, they put many people to work. And truthfully, it was the low-income people which if you can get them off the streets today, they, I mean if you had those jobs now. Of course, then you've got the minimum wage begin to play into it. SC: But we do really want to get into the declining industry because it is really about the deindustrialization of America in many ways. JH: Well that's part of it, but the main thing of the declining industry I think it became an- see in 1905 which wasn't even too long ago, when they took all quotas off. SC: 2005? JH: Yeah. SC: 2005, yeah. JH: All quotas off imported goods. And the tariffs were down almost lower than nothing. GE: Free trade. JH: Yeah, and before that there was the other act, what was that Act? Anyway, before that was then, let's see . . . from 1978 to 1988, we lost 12,000 apparel jobs in the Lehigh Valley. And my opinion, what happened, the decline came because of the modernization, and the wages, and everything else. But then, the low wages of undeveloped countries, and the government wanted to more or less help them, and the wages became so low there that everything had to go offshore. They brought in these two Acts. I think the Multifiber Act is the other one from 1974 to maybe 2005 or something like that, where they put a limit on quotas importing to countries that were developed from undeveloped countries. It was at first a limit on it, and then in 2005 they put the NAFTA, it was NAFTA, the trades act eliminated these tariffs, I mean quotas, it dropped the tariffs down almost to nothing. Because of that imports came in, and all the flood of the clothing came in from offshore. It practically wiped out the industry. But there still are people surviving, like Paul there and these little shops and that. If it's ever going to come back, they say it's coming back. I know there was, I've seen an article, Obama says he wants to bring manufacturing back to the United States. I doubt if it's going to be the apparel industry. GE: Correct. JH: Not the low wage. Maybe the higher machinery will, but not that. But, who knows with the wages are coming lower in the United States. The same time in other countries it is going up, the oil and everything else is becoming crazy and so forth. And this is making a changing thing, and we are a modern nation more so in this country now, and there are reasons it probably could come back to maybe a certain extent. There is a need for small factories for these entrepreneurs and people that, and even manufacturers, that do a very small amount. There is a need for them for these small factories. Because they can't send the container load over there. See that's the only reason why what we did. We had that price because it was a container load of goods, and they can't do that, so they can't. You know there's a need for that type of thing. And these entrepreneurs, and the fast turnover people, are the ones that probably like Under Armour there that can't get enough goods made offshore that they still have him help out and so forth. GE: There will be little niches here and there. JH: There has to be a niche. SC: Everything on PCN. Pennsylvania Community Network. All the little factories, they show the factories that are still surviving in Pennsylvania. JH: Yeah, but you know it is, I wouldn't want to be in it anymore, because you couldn't compete. Like I said, we made a lot of money in the business. We lost a lot of money, too. So luckily, we had enough to come back to a certain extent. In fact, turn around ourselves. GE: Right, right, right. JH: Of the industry, we turned ourselves around more or less. GE: Right SC: Yeah. Can you say that again? That you turned yourselves around, in the industry, and there. . . JH: You can't turn the industry around. SC: That is beautiful. GE: You have to personally adapt. Because you can't, the other is unchangeable. JH: It's unfortunate for the small people who are still trying to make a living with a factory because it's really almost impossible. Unless, they, unfortunately, do things they are not supposed to do. GE: Right, or find some sort of clever niche. JH: Go ahead. Any last questions? GE: Want to ask the last couple questions? SC: Yeah, I have two filmy questions. Two what the heck is she asking me this for. The first one is, what do you value in life the most? And these are, these are questions I think are really important because it gets into who you are as a person? JH: Well, that's really a good question. I ask myself sometimes, what's it all about. SC: Don't we all. JH: What do I value in life? To tell you the truth, I, the way I am today, I am more content I think than I ever was to be honest with you. Because you know, you get older and it's supposed to get easier, but it doesn't. You know your health begins to go, you have other problems, and your children and everything else, and financial, that gets harder, but I think, I don't know about my sister here. But, I'm more content because I'm semi-retired, and I don't have the pressure anymore. I don't have the people problems, and the finances and everything else involved. What I value, I don't know just living my life today as it is, I guess. I don't know how to answer that. You answer this. GB: It has been a long journey. We've been together so many years. Our children grew up in this industry. They've gone their own ways now, but they know what it's all about. They know how hard we worked. Value our family. JH: And it was hard work at times. I remember at the end of the business we would be there at nighttime-- ten, eleven o'clock at night, her and I, working there. The place was dark, light on because we were doing things, needed it for the next day, just to stay alive. And there's many many others in this apparel industry. I'm sure that many others that were forced to close down, and owed the government or the union large amounts of money, and went into debt and so forth. But, at least with us, we closed down, we were clean, and could start up a life and live today like we are, you know. SC: And it seems as if, it's very unusual oftentimes for families to work together. That it's just too difficult and there are rifts among the various family workers and having your children working you'll be working. JH: Well, we had that too. GB: Yeah, we had the ups and downs. SC: Yeah. GE: That's challenging. SC: It's very challenging. GE: Especially, I assume when business was when everything's good, it's much easier. When things unravel a little bit, it's much harder, and it's easy to blame. GB: Exactly. You want to see them get out on their own before they lose everything. JH: Yeah, that was, it was hard at times, because of that. SC: And that's preservation, you know, don't let them go down with the ship. JH: Okay, what's your other question? SC: My other question is what makes you feel the most artistic or completed in life? Just in general, what makes you feel most creative, completed, artistic? What's given you the most sense of satisfaction? JH: Well, one of them is just being here in this, right here, because we're on our own. We can come in and go when we want to, do what we want to do. And you know I still have a family, and so does she. She has her own family, and we don't have the pressures, and we enjoy doing this. We still learn more every day in this industry, really, especially in this apparel and this pattern business, and creating the sizes and so forth. Every day we are just learning more, we get garments you would never dream of, such as the dog clothing. GB: Believe it or not, dog clothing is harder than a regular shirt or something. JH: Who in the world would of ever thought that I would end up grading dogs. It was bad enough doing the human beings, but again, it's more or less helped us. GB: It's a challenge. JH: Sure. GE: But it sounds like if I understand, in terms of the creativity, it's kind of nice at this particular time that you are able to, you're not working so hard, and so you are able to kind of enjoy the business, as opposed to just kind of working, working, working. JH: You hit it one hundred percent. GE: Right. SC: Do you have a different, what makes you feel creative, completed, artistic? GH: No I don't think so. Like I said, it's challenging when you get all different things from . . . we've done bathing suits already, we've done pants, of course, shirts, now we're into dog clothes. It's interesting. JH: Anything that comes along, there's entrepreneurs. GE: Right, right, right. SC: And isn't that the best of business? Creativity where you can enjoy it? GE: And it's probably a little fascinating to see where some of those people are coming from, and their ideas. JH: And you know, and I really believe that if I advertised, put it on the internet or let it be known out there, just what we do, that I could probably get all the business we want. I think, I'm not sure. But again, we are getting older, the equipment is getting older, and we don't want a whole lot. SC: You'd be getting all the business and all the headaches. JH: Yes, your right, back into the people problems and everything else. GE: And at this point, it's all, it exists, so as long as you are able to use it, whatever it brings in, it brings in. If you had to make an investment in something, it wouldn't be worth it. JH: Yeah. Right. And when they break down, then, I don't know what we are going to do. GE: Right, right. JH: To get somebody to even look at that, it cost a thousand dollars even to look at it, even if it's some little screw somewhere. GB: It's a Gerber company. JH: Because they have it locked up so much, you know. Nobody else can repair them. GE: Ohh. Do they still exist? Oh, well obviously you've had them. SC: Gerber is owned by Nestle actually. GB: Oh, I don't know, Gerber is just Gerber, right? SC: Is it Gerber? Is it owned by Nestle? JH: I don't know who owns it. GB: I mean when somebody retires and comes down and repairs, they have to sign a contract that they won't go to any of the old businesses, you know, you can't even call them. JH: See if a guy retires from them, and you need somebody here, it's nice to call one of these guys, who are cheap and maybe it's in the area somewhere, but they can't do it because they will lose their pension or whatever agreement they have with the Gerber company. So you got to call the company directly, and it's costly. GE: Right, isn't that something, interesting. Well, everybody tries to protect their piece. SC: Well, thank you so much. This was wonderful. This was so instructive to us. It really was. JH: Well, I hope it was. GE: Oh, it was, yes. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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James Hartzell and Georgine Banko, March 6, 2012
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Jim Hartzel talks about how his mother, Goldie Hartzell, went from being a worker in a clothes factory to being the forelady, later a silent partner in the business and finally an owner of a contract sewing business with her son, Jim. Goldie and Jim were successful quickly. Within a few years, Jim’s sister (Georgine Banko) and both of their sons entered the business, as well. Jim and Georgine credit their mother with being “business smart.”
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LVTNT-10
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2012-03-06
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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a1e834c6ca3eda45268a3a1f41209a9b
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
Interviewee
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Larry Hirsch
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5.4 June 23, 2015 Larry Hirsch, June 23, 2015 LVTNT-12 2:00:58 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Larry Hirsch Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 HirschLarry_20150623.mp4 1.0:|17(13)|30(13)|41(14)|54(5)|67(3)|80(16)|93(3)|104(9)|117(6)|132(18)|145(14)|162(3)|175(14)|190(5)|207(7)|222(2)|233(10)|262(2)|279(9)|298(4)|309(18)|320(15)|339(9)|350(5)|361(7)|374(7)|387(3)|402(2)|419(15)|434(17)|453(6)|462(3)|479(4)|492(8)|507(8)|520(7)|539(10)|552(3)|569(10)|588(3)|599(16)|612(4)|629(4)|642(3)|657(8)|668(18)|683(2)|692(15)|703(9)|714(15)|733(7)|744(9)|755(15)|768(10)|783(2)|802(16)|817(9)|834(4)|851(6)|866(9)|883(10)|900(5)|915(16)|928(14)|947(10)|956(13)|969(8)|988(3)|1001(7)|1018(6)|1033(8)|1046(10)|1059(12)|1072(18)|1083(14)|1098(6)|1113(3)|1126(7)|1147(14)|1162(4)|1177(8)|1194(13)|1211(3)|1236(12)|1253(14)|1264(5)|1285(14)|1294(16)|1309(8)|1322(3)|1345(3)|1360(8)|1371(16)|1384(15)|1397(11)|1416(16)|1429(5)|1448(17)|1467(12)|1484(10)|1497(5)|1512(16)|1527(5)|1538(12)|1555(7)|1576(10)|1593(14)|1612(4)|1627(9)|1638(12)|1657(12)|1678(4)|1693(4)|1710(13)|1725(9)|1740(13)|1757(10)|1770(16)|1783(14)|1818(8)|1837(3) 0 https://youtu.be/ilb62eem9i4 YouTube video 0 Introduction—Larry Hirsch SC: Today is June 23, 2015. So would you just talk about yourself, when you were born, where you were born, etc. And then go back in your family history as far back as you know because it’s really helpful for us to see the patterns of how people came to be in the textile industry. 
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 ; LH: Well, I was born August 3, 1945. I won’t go into my whole long history, but I was adopted. I was born in Canada ok so I pretty much starting with the beginning. 0 48 Father & ; Grandfather—Emigration and Family Business LH: My grandfather came to this country from Hungary in the early 1900s. He was I believe either 15 or 16 years old ; came here by himself. Couldn't speak English. He was trained as a tailor. So for a number of years, he traveled around the country working in different cities as a tailor. It's funny how, he didn't talk about it very much and unfortunately if I had been smarter than I over the years I would asked him a lot more questions than I ever did, you know, but somehow and I don't know exactly how he ended up in Bethlehem and that's where he met my grandmother, who had also come from Hungary. And then in 19 . . . oh my father was born in 1918 in Philadelphia. And then at one point they moved to Allentown. They apparently lived in many different locations in the Lehigh Valley. 0 227 Hirsch's Parents—Mylo Manufacturing LH: [A]nd my father then was a salesman for the selling the uniforms. And he also worked nights at Bethlehem Steel just to try to make a living. As far as I can remember he somehow met someone who manufactured as he called it children's sunsuits. You don’t hear that word any more whatever sunsuits were and the guy said to him if you open a factory, I will supply you with work. So, of course, my father didn’t have any money, and I believe he borrowed some money from someone he knew. In fact, I’ll include that, I believe his name. . . They referred to him as Doc Shaffer, his real name was Ben Shaffer, Benjamin Shaffer. [Could not confirm correct spelling of name] He was very big in textile machinery. He bought and sold textile machinery, apparently had made a lot of money during the Second World War, and my father and his son grew up together. His son was my father's best friend, and I believe that's where he borrowed the money from, it was from Doc Shaffer. He opened the factory with my grandfather and my mother, and that's really how he got his start in the garment business. 0 384 The '50s: Manufacturing Children's Polos LH: I think after a certain period of time my father at some point met another gentleman, and they went into business together. And they started manufacturing their own line of children's what they called back then Polo shirts. They were basically T-shirts, but fancier T-shirts, pullover, and they had a sales office in New York City they had sales reps all over the country. At one time, they had their own knitting, they would knit their own fabric, and it was fairly large, it grew into a fairly large business. But I think what kind of doomed them was the Korean War. Where you know back then, you would take a position in . . .cotton that you used for knitting, but when the war came, you know, the price of cotton either went through the roof or whatever so eventually they closed up that business. 0 521 A Lucky Break—Renting to Western Electric LH: [I]n business luck always plays, in some cases, a big role. And in order for him to get financing for the building he had heard of this little company that was looking for space called Western Electric. So we went to the bank he talked to the people at Western Electric, and they told him if you buy the building we will rent X amount of space from you in the building. So with that in hand he went to the bank, but at that point the bank said to him at first they said no they won't loan him the money. Because he didn't have really much collateral for it and they spoke for certain period of time, and eventually my father thanked him for his time, got up to leave, and the guy said to him, “Wait a minute,” he said, “I'm going to give you the loan.” My father said, “Well why? you just told me . . .” He said, “Based on talking to you,” he said, “I like your attitude, and I think you're going to be a success.” They gave him the loan, and he bought this very large building, and Western Electric rented two floors in the building. 0 673 Contract Manufacturing in Philadelphia LH: So when they closed that up my father went back into contract manufacturing. And he worked primarily then for companies that made men's, and boy’s knit shirts, polo shirts whatever you want to call them. Those firms were primarily, well a couple of them were from Philadelphia, and the largest part of their business was sweaters. At that time, in Philadelphia was . . . first of all, manufacturing in Philadelphia was tremendous, tremendous. Especially sweaters, knitting sweaters in Philadelphia. So a lot of those firms then branched out to making what we called cut and sewn knitwear. I don't know exactly how my father ever came in contact with them. But what I always thought was interesting, he worked primarily for three firms, and they, the owners of the three firms, were all related, and they were competing with each other. So when someone from one of their firms came to the factory they were forbidden to go out on the floor because they didn't want someone stealing the ideas from the other companies he was working for. But my father became very successful during that time. 0 863 Early Family History SC: [W]hat names do you know of the family, even going back to Hungary? Do you know any of that information? Of the two families?
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 ; LH: As far as I know my grandfather had a sister. My grandfather, as far as I know, never went back to Hungary. And had little if any contact with his family after he came to this country. I don't know why. It just never happened. And I don’t know what happened to them. 
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 ; SC: Do you know their names, any of the names? 
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 ; LH: Well let's see, I was named after my grandfather's father his name was Leopold Hirsch, and the name Hirsch was the name that he came to this country with it wasn't a shortened version as a lot of people who were Hirsch might have been Hirshberg or Hirschfeld. It was just Hirsch. My grandmother came to this country with her whole family: parents, sisters, brothers, what have you. It's interesting, this is something that I found out not too long ago is that my grandmother's father was also a tailor. So then I start thinking, okay, well he was a tailor in Bethlehem so I think that's how my grandfather ended up meeting my grandmother. 0 1173 Mel Roth, Muhlenberg Alumnus LH: But at different times several of my mother's sisters or brothers lived with us. So, for instance, my uncle Mel, who went to Muhlenberg, he lived with us when he went to Muhlenberg. 
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 ; SC: What years did he go to Muhlenberg? 
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 ; LH: What year...hmm
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 ; SC: It was before ‘57. 
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 ; LH: Okay yeah, I might've been, I think I was less than 10 years old, I think. 
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 ; GE: So, the early 50s. 0 1392 Larry Hirsch's Adoption & ; "Butterbox Babies" LH: I was born in a maternity home in Canada, which became infamous. It was a baby mill. Mothers would go there to have their babies. A lot of the babies, if they were born not very healthy, they were killed. A lot of mothers were told that their babies died, and then the maternity home essentially sold them to someone else. So I believe it was in the late 40s a reporter kind of got wind of what was going on there and wrote a book and did a whole feature on. It was called Butterbox Babies, and they were . . . The reason that Butterbox, butter in those days was delivered in wooden box, and that's what they used to bury the babies in these little wooden boxes. So when my parents are looking to adopt, back then, first of all, if you were Jewish, it was very difficult to adopt a child that was not Jewish. So, of course then there were a very limited number of children available, but my Aunt Bea had seen an ad in the New York newspaper about this maternity home in Canada. She contacted the people there, had some correspondence with them then put my parents in touch with them, and that’s how my parents ended up with me. But eventually the home was closed, and because of what went on at that home all of the adoption laws in Canada and the United States were changed because of what happened there. So there was a book written, there was a movie made about Butterbox Babies. 0 1840 Hirsch's Childhood and Education SC: Could you talk a little bit about where you have lived, where you went to school, your education and then after your education any places you worked actually from the very beginning, paperboy if you did that, you know anything. 
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 ; LH: I grew up in Allentown. I went through the whole Allentown school system, and I went to the Fashion Institute of Technology in New York City - which, back then, was a two-year school. And they had their major course was apparel design, but they had a small course in apparel management and engineering, which is what I took. 0 1920 Early Work Experiences SC: So if you would talk a little bit about your work history. Anything that you did from before you became a business mogul as an adult. Any steps that you took that will be helpful to us. 
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 ; LH: Well primarily, every summer I worked at the factory doing odd jobs, worked in the cutting room, worked in the shipping department but what's interesting my real interest growing up was art. Then in high school I took art classes, there was an art teacher then his name was Jim Musselman, I don't know if you have ever heard of him?
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 ; GE: Musselman Advertising? 
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 ; LH: Yes, very well known, not only teacher, but and as an artist himself in the Lehigh Valley, and initially that's really what I wanted to do I wanted to go into commercial art, something like that. But I think when I explored it more I realized that it wouldn't be easy to make a living. 0 2049 Adulthood—Marriage and Children SC: And can you talk about your family life from the time that you became an adult and your family?
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 ; LH: Well, I think certainly growing up as I said earlier I grew up right around the corner from here.
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 ; SC: What’s the address?
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 ; LH: 414 North Leh St. and as I said, my parents bought the house in 1945, and I still live there. But yeah I had, I think I had a nice childhood growing up. I met my wife at FIT, and we got married. Not long after we got married, she became pregnant. So when I finished with a FIT that's I came back home, and I went into business with my father and grandfather who remained, essentially my grandfather remained active in the business almost up to the day he died. 0 2325 Atlantic Apparel Association GE: So Larry, what we’re going to do now is just explore a little bit more your own family’s history, and maybe if you want to explain first you can say that you know a lot about just the apparel industry. Why don’t we first just talk about what you know about local apparel industries. And so go back as far as you’re comfortable. I know that you and your father, am I correct, were both presidents of the Association or helped develop the Association. 
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 ; LH: Yes.
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 ; GE: In fact, why don’t you start by telling us about the Association.
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 ; LH: Well you mentioned earlier the Atlantic Apparel Association, which originally was called the Slate Belt Association, okay, and that Association was a collective group of people that negotiated with the union, with the ILGWU for their contracts. Whereas the Lehigh Valley Needle Trades Association was born as a self-help organization to help promote the apparel industry and to be able to share ideas. Because for many many years those that were in the garment business [didn’t] really talk to each other about who they were working for or how they were doing things. It was this real secretive like you didn't allow anybody else to come into your factory because you didn't want them to see what you're doing. 0 2810 The Height of the Apparel Industry in the Lehigh Valley/Allentown's Sewing School LH: You know that people don’t realize at one time the apparel industry, and I'm not including knitting, dyeing, finishing, in the Lehigh Valley, we were collectively the largest employer in the Lehigh Valley. We were bigger than Bethlehem Steel as many as 24-25,000 people worked in the apparel industry. In the State of Pennsylvania, I believe overall we were the second largest employer next to Bethlehem Steel and US Steel. It’s incredible. And a lot of people made a living. It's interesting because back then what I always hated was, we were considered a low-wage industry. Well the problem was they were comparing us to Bethlehem Steel and Mack Truck where people were making $15-$20 an hour, and I'm talking back in the ‘60s. Whereas, it's interesting, I'd say as long ago as at least 30 years ago we had what we called a shop average of eight or nine dollars an hour. Thirty years ago, that was considered low-wage. We had factories that had shop average is $10 an hour, $14 an hour, but we were still considered low-wage industries. Through the Association we started the Allentown Sewing School because there was a time when everybody was busy. The labor market, virtually nobody existed and what everybody was doing, everybody was trying to steal help from somebody else which was really not good for any of us. So we started a sewing school. 0 3168 Business Contacts in Women's Apparel LH: As I said earlier, my father in the 50s was working from men's and boy's companies, and as that started to die off, we ended up getting into the women's. So over the years we worked for... basically you mention the name we work for them. okay Liz Claiborne back then we worked for companies like Bobbie Brooks, I don't know if you remember them. We work for companies called College Town. Who’s the big one in Philly that I just heard about his closing?...Jones New York, Sidney Kimmel. Did you ever hear of Sidney Kimmel. The Kimmel Center in Philadelphia ; he was the benefactor of the Kimmel Center. That was his company. Just recently I heard they were (makes a sound). They were one of the giants of the industry. We worked for Ship’n Shore. A lot of these companies we started with them almost in the beginning. Again, it's interesting, a lot of these women’s firms were sweater manufacturers who then decided to go into what we called the cut and sewn knitwear. So a lot of them, we were there at the beginning when they first started, but again in Philadelphia you had huge companies Devon’s Apparel and Clean Casuals. These were all companies we worked for at different times. 0 3443 Icons in the Garment & ; Needle-Trade Industries LH: Yeah, this Allison manufacturing made basically T-shirts that they screen-printed, and their licenses were with like Disney. The one that put them on the map was Daniel Boone, but big. They employ here in Allentown, they employed over 300 people, 350 people here. But there were many real icons in the Lehigh Valley. You had the gentleman that owned Phoenix Clothes, Berkowitz I don't remember his first name. They employed at one time, 1,500 people. I don't necessarily think they all were here because he also had another factory somewhere else in Pennsylvania but big, they made men's suits. Then you had a place like Cross Country Clothes in Northampton employed 900, a thousand people.
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 ; GE: What family was that?
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 ; LH: Billera.
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 ; GE: I think they’re still around, right?
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 ; LH: They’re no longer in the industry. 0 3696 Silver Line Versus Interstate Trucking Companies LH: Back then there were primarily two trucking companies that served the garment industry in this area. One was Silver Line and the other one was called Interstate Dress Carriers.
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 ; GE: Do you know what families ran those?
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 ; LH: Interstate Dress Carriers was a gentleman named Lieberman, I believe. I mean these people were big. I mean, there was a whole interesting history. 
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 ; GE: Were they from this area?
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 ; LH: No, New York. These were very different times that some of these people were connected. Do you know what I'm saying when I say connected?
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 ; GE: We do. Are you saying Mafia? 
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 ; LH: [Larry shrugs]I’ll tell you a quick story. When I first was working for my father. . . Back then, and I'm not going to make it a long story. Back then you used either Silver Line or Interstate that was it, period. 0 3960 Expansion of the Family Business LH: So what happened is at one point we had one factory, and we now had four families we had the support. So we decide well the only way we could do that was we have to get bigger, we have to grow so what we did is first we bought another factory that was over on the east side of Allentown. We named that factory Knit Wits. We then bought two other factories, which we combined into one, and that was located more in the west end of Allentown called Hirsch Manufacturing. So collectively at one point we employed at least 250 people between the three factories.
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 ; GE: This is at what time? 
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 ; LH: I’d say again, late 60s early 70s, and we grew to the point where we were shipping at times between 4 and five thousand dozen a week. 0 4254 1985: Changes in the Garment Industry and the Decline of the Family Business GE: You want to share with us maybe the last 10 years as it started to . . . First of all, how long was your company in business? 
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 ; LH: Well, my father closed up his factory, closed up Allentown Manufacturing, he had been in business for about 50 years, I think it was. So he closed up about, it's now going on 30 years ago. 
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 ; GE: So about 1985. 
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 ; LH: Yeah, he had to close. I mean the business . . . What had happened was that over the years, especially, we were in the women's apparel, most of those companies that we worked for were connected, were union. They belong to the International Ladies' Garment Workers Union. So when we work for them, they would pay a lot of the benefits for us to the union. Well, what happened was that percentage that they were paying kept going up and up and up, and the only way they could escape the union . . . Now some tried to go down south, but they still had to pay the union. So that's really, in my opinion, that's really when stuff started going overseas. 0 4560 Life After the Family Business—Larry Hirsch's "Garment Works" GE: And then you said that you were starting your own factory. 
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 ; LH: Yes, I started my own factory not connected to the union. It was nice, it was a nice little factory. It was called The Garment Works. And I took over the building that we had had Knitwits in over on the East Side. I took over that building. 
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 ; GE: What did you make here, and for whom did you make it? 
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 ; LH: Well, again, I was, I primarily was making children's, more children's knitwear and then went along pretty nicely for maybe 10 years.
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 ; GE: Wow that was one of the last ones. 
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 ; LH: Yeah, maybe a little less than 10 years. Had a nice factory. At one time, maybe I employed as many as 40 people. Then again, some of those people that I was working for started disappearing, going out of business, so then what I did . . . Before I closed the factory, I started doing what we called, we did pressing, finishing, and packaging for companies. Because around that time what became very big was garment-dyed garments, garments that were dyed after they were sewn. And a lot of them needed to be pressed and packaged and what have you. So I started doing that. 0 4830 Walmart's Impact on the Garment and Needle-Trade Industries LH: I worked for a company called Wright Knitwear, big company. They were up in Schuylkill Haven, Orwigsburg, Allentown . . . Their main account was Walmart.
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 ; GE: What was the family name who owned that? 
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 ; LH: You know what I don't remember.
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 ; GE: But they were not an Allentown family. 
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 ; LH: No, so I did a lot of work for them. I did sewing and the packaging for them. Good company, you know, and they're the ones that moved to El . .. You know Walmart beat them to death and being that over 50% of their business was with Walmart . . .And Walmart said, the guy told me one day, he said Walmart said to us, “You know the 50,000 dozen that you made for us last year. . . Yeah . . . we want to pay you less than we did last year.” You know it got to the point of how cheap is cheap. You know. So they moved everything to El Salvador. Just so they could still produce the goods cheap enough for Walmart. You know what, and after that I never set foot in Walmart ever again, ever. And I knew other people that were put out of business also by Walmart, and I said I will never, ever buy anything from them ever again. 0 4998 The Lehigh Valley Needle-Trades Association GE: Yes, The Lehigh Valley Needle Trades, so that began in the 60s, and how long did that last? 
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 ; LH: At least I think 25 years.
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 ; GE: Ok until about 90, around that time period? Is that right?
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 ; LH: Yeah.
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 ; GE: And during that time, it sounds like you and your father were very active. Were you employed at the Needle Trades, or were you a volunteer? 
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 ; LH: Yeah the only person that got paid was Jim Chambers.
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 ; GE: You were just founding members.
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 ; LH: Yeah, my father was the original president of the Association. 0 5203 Participation in the Jewish Community and Allentown Politics GE: Will you tell us about your father’s and your activity in the Jewish community in the broader Lehigh Valley or Allentown Community. 
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 ; LH: That’s an interesting point that I have discussed with some people recently in that why weren't more Jewish people active in local politics. Interesting very interesting. I don't know the exact answer of that. I tend to think some of it may have had to do with not wanting to be too visible. You know because when you consider who some of the local industry people were they certainly could become mayor, senators, you name it. But they, for the most part, chose to stay out of politics. 
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 ; GE: How about organizations--Kiwanis, Rotary, Chamber of Commerce, any of those things? 
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 ; LH: We were a member of Chamber of Commerce. I at one time, when I was president of the Association, I was also on the Board of Directors of the Chamber of Commerce, and I was also on the board of directors of what was then called Manpower, which was the state agency that provided funding for training. 0 5461 Impact of the Garment & ; Needle-Trade Industries on the Lehigh Valley's Jewish Community GE: Ok, what is your sense of how both the Jewish community as well as the larger community was affected by the disappearance of this industry? 
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 ; LH: I think honestly, in my personal opinion, I think the Lehigh Valley lost its identity, I really do. I mean what are we identified with today? The largest employer in the Lehigh Valley is Lehigh Valley Hospital. Is that what we’re identified with today, I don't know. You know, one time it was Mack truck, and it was, of course, in Bethlehem, it was Bethlehem Steel. But it was also the apparel industry. The other thing I think was affected . . . There were a lot of men in the apparel industry that made a lot of money. Some of them made a lot of money while they were in business ; some of them made money when they sold their business. 0 5838 Hirsch's Business Properties GE: Before I turn it over to Sue, there was a question I wanted to ask you when you got out around 1995 were you able to sell your businesses?
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 ; LH: No, I just had to close-up.
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 ; GE: How about the buildings, do you still own the buildings?
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 ; LH: Well, after I went out of business, I basically took over because now we had empty buildings.
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 ; GE: How many?
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 ; LH: Three, so we had to try and rent them, so that became my new job was trying to, in some cases renovate and to rent.
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 ; GE: How has that worked out? 
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 ; LH: It worked out pretty well for a number of years. I think we were fortunate in that at one point we had a tenant, the building was over there on Madison Street, and tenant came to me and said they wanted to buy the building, so we eventually sold the building to the tenant. 0 6036 Recycling in the Garment & ; Needle-Trade Industries GE: And Levine is the sewing store? Is that who you mean?
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 ; LH: Yes, at one time they had sewing store, but their major business was buying and selling fabric. In other words, a manufacturer would design and produce what they wanted for the season, so the end of the season, they'd have fabric leftover so companies like Levine would buy the fabric. And they occupied several buildings in Allentown filled with, I mean, an unbelievable amount of fabric.
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 ; GE: Because of what I knew is they had fabric stores. They had a big fabric store downtown. 
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 ; LH: Yes, yes, one time they had a few of them. Yeah, nice people. I think the one time there were like 4 brothers involved but what they also did, this was interesting, when I first started with my father, when we would do cutting. . . you know you don't use every inch of fabric you have fallout, clippings whatever you call it, and we would put all of that in these big burlap bags, okay, and sell it to Levine's.
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 ; GE: Also, is that also Sheftel? 
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 ; LH: Yes, Sheftel also did that. 0 6668 Hirsch's Values and Creative Inspirations SC: Well I have a couple of sorts of theoretical or thought questions. The first one is what do you value most in life? 
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 ; LH: My children and my grandchildren. See, I didn't hesitate.
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 ; SC: And what has made you feel the most artistic or creative or sort of satisfied in life?
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 ; LH: I think that when I was in a business that I was really good at what I did. I think we, at one time, we had an operation that was, at times when I think back, I wonder how did we do it? How did we produce five thousand dozen a week, how did we do that? You know you have to be doing something right. And I think I’ve prided myself on producing a quality garment, a real quality garment. We stood behind . . .if we did something wrong, we made it right. 0 6904 Relationship to Employees GE: How about your relationship with your employees? You didn’t talk about that. 
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 ; LH: I mean personally, I think, overall, I had very good relationships with the employees. At times my father felt I was too tough, but overall, you know what, I never felt that I was better than they were. I never asked anybody to do something that I wouldn't do myself. And that included cleaning the toilets, truthfully. I can tell you how many times I cleaned toilets. I will say that over the years, once in a while, when I would run into somebody who had worked for us . . . In fact, when my father passed away, on one of those websites where you can do…
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 ; GE: Oh, like the obituary?
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 ; SC: That you can leave comments and memories.
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 ; LH: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody wrote in there that he was the most wonderful boss that she ever had, and working for him was an honor. I’ve come across employees that have said to me that it was the best place they ever worked. 0 MovingImage Larry Hirsch talks about how his father got started in the apparel business with his grandfather. Larry’s grandfather was a skilled tailor who would make the patterns from the drawings or sketches of their clients. They started making young girl’s sunsuits, then making men’s and boy’s polo shirts, later making women’s knitwear. The Hirsch family were founding members of the Lehigh Valley Needle Trades Association. The purpose of the association was to have owners work together to promote the industry and share ideas. Larry’s father closed his factory in 1985. Larry and his brother-in-law started their own apparel factory and ran that for another ten years.
 ; An interview with Larry Hirsch, June 23, 2015 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is June 23, 2015. So would you just talk about yourself, when you were born, where you were born, etc. And then go back in your family history as far back as you know because it's really helpful for us to see the patterns of how people came to be in the textile industry. LARRY HIRSCH: Well, I was born August 3, 1945. I won't go into my whole long history, but I was adopted. I was born in Canada ok so I pretty much starting with the beginning. My grandfather came to this country from Hungary in the early 1900s. He was I believe either 15 or 16 years old ; came here by himself. Couldn't speak English. He was trained as a tailor. So for a number of years, he traveled around the country working in different cities as a tailor. It's funny how, he didn't talk about it very much and unfortunately if I had been smarter than I over the years I would asked him a lot more questions than I ever did, you know, but somehow and I don't know exactly how he ended up in Bethlehem and that's where he met my grandmother, who had also come from Hungary. And then in 19 . . . oh my father was born in 1918 in Philadelphia. And then at one point they moved to Allentown. They apparently lived in many different locations in the Lehigh Valley. So my father pretty much went through the Allentown school district, and I believe he graduated like in 1936. My grandfather at around that time was making uniforms. Now when I say uniforms, they were uniforms that primarily gas station attendants wore that had their insignias on them and his factory if you want to call it that was in his house. So one-bedroom I remember my parents telling the story when they first got married they had to be out of their bedroom by like 7 o'clock in the morning because there were sewing machines in their bedroom and women then would come in and do the sewing in that room and my father then was a salesman for the selling the uniforms. And he also worked nights at Bethlehem Steel just to try to make a living. As far as I can remember he somehow met someone who manufactured as he called it children's sunsuits. You don't hear that word any more whatever sunsuits were and the guy said to him if you open a factory, I will supply you with work. So, of course, my father didn't have any money, and I believe he borrowed some money from someone he knew. In fact, I'll include that, I believe his name. . . They referred to him as Doc Shaffer, his real name was Ben Shaffer, Benjamin Shaffer. [Could not confirm correct spelling of name] He was very big in textile machinery. He bought and sold textile machinery, apparently had made a lot of money during the Second World War, and my father and his son grew up together. His son was my father's best friend, and I believe that's where he borrowed the money from, it was from Doc Shaffer. He opened the factory with my grandfather and my mother, and that's really how he got his start in the garment business. SC: Was your mother connected to the garment business in a specific way? LH: No, my mother grew up in Northampton, and her father owned a furniture store in Northampton, but I think after a certain period of time my father at some point met another gentleman, and they went into business together. And they started manufacturing their own line of children's what they called back then Polo shirts. They were basically T-shirts, but fancier T-shirts, pullover, and they had a sales office in New York City they had sales reps all over the country. At one time, they had their own knitting, they would knit their own fabric, and it was fairly large, it grew into a fairly large business. But I think what kind of doomed them was the Korean War. Where you know back then, you would take a position in . . .cotton that you used for knitting, but when the war came, you know, the price of cotton either went through the roof or whatever so eventually they closed up that business. But during that time as they were growing, my father bought a very large building in Allentown, which he didn't need the whole building for himself, but he was fortunate and again you know - in business luck always plays, in some cases, a big role. And in order for him to get financing for the building he had heard of this little company that was looking for space called Western Electric. So we went to the bank he talked to the people at Western Electric, and they told him if you buy the building we will rent X amount of space from you in the building. So with that in hand he went to the bank, but at that point the bank said to him at first they said no they won't loan him the money. Because he didn't have really much collateral for it and they spoke for certain period of time, and eventually my father thanked him for his time, got up to leave, and the guy said to him, "Wait a minute," he said, "I'm going to give you the loan." My father said, "Well why? you just told me . . ." He said, "Based on talking to you," he said, "I like your attitude, and I think you're going to be a success." They gave him the loan, and he bought this very large building, and Western Electric rented two floors in the building. So when he then, it was interesting, when he was manufacturing his own line of clothing their label, the name of their company was Mylo Manufacturing. That stood for Merle and Larry. Merle is my sister, that's how he came up with Mylo.I think you know a lot of people in the garment industry named their companies after their children or after their mother, or . . . So when they closed that up my father went back into contract manufacturing. And he worked primarily then for companies that made men's, and boy's knit shirts, polo shirts whatever you want to call them. Those firms were primarily, well a couple of them were from Philadelphia, and the largest part of their business was sweaters. At that time, in Philadelphia was . . . first of all, manufacturing in Philadelphia was tremendous, tremendous. Especially sweaters, knitting sweaters in Philadelphia. So a lot of those firms then branched out to making what we called cut and sewn knitwear. I don't know exactly how my father ever came in contact with them. But what I always thought was interesting, he worked primarily for three firms, and they, the owners of the three firms, were all related, and they were competing with each other. So when someone from one of their firms came to the factory they were forbidden to go out on the floor because they didn't want someone stealing the ideas from the other companies he was working for. But my father became very successful during that time. At times, they employed over 300 people with a dayshift/night shift. Again my grandfather was very active and instrumental in the business. Actually, my grandfather made all of the patterns. He did all the designing for each of these companies. They would give him ideas ; drawings sketches. He would then, you know, design the garment, and he would make all the patterns for all the garments they produced. And I think for my father at that time it was a very exciting time for him. SC: So may I ask a couple follow up questions: what names do you know of the family, even going back to Hungary? Do you know any of that information? Of the two families? LH: As far as I know my grandfather had a sister. My grandfather, as far as I know, never went back to Hungary. And had little if any contact with his family after he came to this country. I don't know why. It just never happened. And I don't know what happened to them. SC: Do you know their names, any of the names? LH: Well let's see, I was named after my grandfather's father his name was Leopold Hirsch, and the name Hirsch was the name that he came to this country with it wasn't a shortened version as a lot of people who were Hirsch might have been Hirshberg or Hirschfeld. It was just Hirsch. My grandmother came to this country with her whole family: parents, sisters, brothers, what have you. It's interesting, this is something that I found out not too long ago is that my grandmother's father was also a tailor. So then I start thinking, okay, well he was a tailor in Bethlehem so I think that's how my grandfather ended up meeting my grandmother. So I, you know, growing up I certainly knew a lot of my grandmother's family, but my father was an only child so. . . SC: What were their names, your grandmother's family? LH: Lowy. SC: And what was your grandmother's name? LH: Josephine. SC: Josephine Lowy. LH: Yes. My grandfather's name was Ernest Hirsch. SC: And do you know his wife's maiden name? LH: my grandmother? SC: Yes. LH: Lowy. SC: Ok and then how about going down one your father and your mother. What was your mother's maiden name? LH: Roth, yeah pretty common name. A lot of Roths. My mother was one of seven children. Yeah, it was Roth. GAIL EISENBERG: And what was her first name, your mother? LH: Mildred. SC: And as far as where they lived, where everybody lived and went to school, do you know any of the other people, where they lived and went to school? That you haven't mentioned where they lived. LH: Yeah, my sister, my mother's family, several of them, they all grew up in Northampton. Both of my mother's brothers were in the Korean War. My one uncle was a doctor, and he was the first medical person to be wounded in Korea. Not that that's something you really . . . ,but he was fairly, wounded fairly badly. When he was able to, he came to live with us while he was recovering from his wounds. But at different times several of my mother's sisters or brothers lived with us. So, for instance, my uncle Mel, who went to Muhlenberg, he lived with us when he went to Muhlenberg. SC: What years did he go to Muhlenberg? LH: What year...hmm SC: It was before '57. LH: Okay yeah, I might've been, I think I was less than 10 years old, I think. GE: So, the early 50s. LH: Then, different sisters . . . My mother's oldest sister ended up in New York City. She was very interested in acting. She was in a number of television shows, did a lot of off-Broadway stuff. In fact, my mother's cousin recently showed me a book that has a picture of a class of students at the Lee Strasberg Acting Studio in New York. So in that picture is by my aunt, Marilyn Monroe, and I can't remember some of the other people. But she knew many many many many people and her daughter ended up going into acting. And her daughter was on a daytime soap opera as a child for quite a while. She then made a movie. She was in a movie with Robert Duvall, James Caan, and there's a woman, and I can never remember, and my cousin as a child was in this movie. And the movie was produced and directed by Francis Ford Coppola. Now it wasn't a big movie at the time because this was before Robert Duvall and James Caan had become big stars. So that's kind of my connection. So now I'm the oldest of 24 first cousins just on my mother's side of the family. SC: What was her name, her cousin's name, who was in-- LH: My aunt? SC: Your aunt. LH: Beatrice. Beatrice Zimmet was her married name. That's a whole other story with my aunt and my adoption, what have you. There's a whole history. SC: Would you be comfortable sharing if you know your birth parents' names? LH: I was born in a maternity home in Canada, which became infamous. It was a baby mill. Mothers would go there to have their babies. A lot of the babies, if they were born not very healthy, they were killed. A lot of mothers were told that their babies died, and then the maternity home essentially sold them to someone else. So I believe it was in the late 40s a reporter kind of got wind of what was going on there and wrote a book and did a whole feature on. It was called Butterbox Babies, and they were . . . The reason that Butterbox, butter in those days was delivered in wooden box, and that's what they used to bury the babies in these little wooden boxes. So when my parents are looking to adopt, back then, first of all, if you were Jewish, it was very difficult to adopt a child that was not Jewish. So, of course then there were a very limited number of children available, but my Aunt Bea had seen an ad in the New York newspaper about this maternity home in Canada. She contacted the people there, had some correspondence with them then put my parents in touch with them, and that's how my parents ended up with me. But eventually the home was closed, and because of what went on at that home all of the adoption laws in Canada and the United States were changed because of what happened there. So there was a book written, there was a movie made about Butterbox Babies. I came to the United States, and I became a naturalized citizen, and at the time I was the youngest person in the United States to become naturalized. So yeah, it's a long ; I always, it's interesting because I always knew that I was adopted. My parents told me and my sister was adopted also so I always knew that I was adopted. But it wasn't until a number of years after I was married that my mother presented me with all the information: who my birth mother was and what happened. GE: Were these women, the mothers unwed? Is that how this was-- LH: I would say, probably. Probably most of them were unwed. At the time some of them actually worked at the home, you know, while they were waiting to give birth. So today, where the home was in Canada, has been torn down, but there is a monument there to the babies that died there. SC: Do you know the name of the home and where it was? GE: Yes, it was outside of Halifax, Nova Scotia. LH: And I, boy, why can't I remember that. SC: We can look that up. [NOTE: It's called the Ideal Maternity Home] LH: Yeah, anyway interestingly enough at one point after I had all this information that my mother gave me, one day I had looked through it, and it was really weird because my original passport was in there. and I opened it up there is little picture of me in there. I think I was eight months old when I was adopted and underneath it said, "George Edward Little." And I remember, I turned to my mother and said, "Who's George Edward Little," and she said, "That's you. That was your birth name." So you know what, I waited until after my mother passed away. Cause I know was very hard for her to give me all of this information and eventually I did contact my birth mother, which did not go well. The last time I spoke to her was a few years ago, and she told me never to call her again. What's interesting too is that a lot of the babies were adopted by Jewish families in New Jersey, New York, and Pennsylvania. A lot of them came here. GE: I guess that's because that's what they could do. LH: Yeah, I was always grateful to my Aunt Bea because if it wasn't for her as I told her children, if it wasn't for your mother, I wouldn't be here today, you know. SC: Could you talk a little bit about where you have lived, where you went to school, your education and then after your education any places you worked actually from the very beginning, paperboy if you did that, you know anything. LH: I grew up in Allentown. I went through the whole Allentown school system, and I went to the Fashion Institute of Technology in New York City - which, back then, was a two-year school. And they had their major course was apparel design, but they had a small course in apparel management and engineering, which is what I took. SC: So if you would talk a little bit about your work history. Anything that you did from before you became a business mogul as an adult. Any steps that you took that will be helpful to us. LH: Well primarily, every summer I worked at the factory doing odd jobs, worked in the cutting room, worked in the shipping department but what's interesting my real interest growing up was art. Then in high school I took art classes, there was an art teacher then his name was Jim Musselman, I don't know if you have ever heard of him? GE: Musselman Advertising? LH: Yes, very well known, not only teacher, but and as an artist himself in the Lehigh Valley, and initially that's really what I wanted to do I wanted to go into commercial art, something like that. But I think when I explored it more I realized that it wouldn't be easy to make a living. Plus, you really had to be exceptionally talented in commercial art, so then I decided well then I'm going to go into business with my father and grandfather, who both of them that's really what they wanted me to do. And that's how I ended up going FIT. SC: And can you talk about your family life from the time that you became an adult and your family? LH: Well, I think certainly growing up as I said earlier I grew up right around the corner from here. SC: What's the address? LH: 414 North Leh St. and as I said, my parents bought the house in 1945, and I still live there. But yeah I had, I think I had a nice childhood growing up. I met my wife at FIT, and we got married. Not long after we got married, she became pregnant. So when I finished with a FIT that's I came back home, and I went into business with my father and grandfather who remained, essentially my grandfather remained active in the business almost up to the day he died. With the exception of because for health reasons he would go ; in later years he would go to Florida during the winter, but when he was here every day he'd come into the factory. SC: How old was he when he passed away? LH: Just shy of 85 years old. SC: Do you have children? LH: Yes, two daughters, Lisa and Lori. I now have five granddaughters, so my whole life has involved women. SC: And so could you talk a little bit about what your daughters do? LH: My younger daughter, who lives in Bethlehem is a nurse at Easton Hospital and has been there for a number of years. My older daughter, who lives in the Plymouth Meeting is now a stay-at-home mom, but she originally worked as an accountant for different firms in Philadelphia and then ended up at Comcast. She was assistant vice president of one of the divisions of Comcast. So then I think it was around the time when they had their first child that she stopped working. SC: Well, I will pass you along to Gail now. GE: Ok. LH: I'll show you this, who do you think that is? GE: Thornburgh in the center and this is you. LH: Yes, that's me. GE: Is that your father? LH: No, his name was Larry Lau. SC: Thornburgh, I haven't thought about him in ages. GE: So Larry, what we're going to do now is just explore a little bit more your own family's history, and maybe if you want to explain first you can say that you know a lot about just the apparel industry. Why don't we first just talk about what you know about local apparel industries. And so go back as far as you're comfortable. I know that you and your father, am I correct, were both presidents of the Association or helped develop the Association. LH: Yes. GE: In fact, why don't you start by telling us about the Association. LH: Well you mentioned earlier the Atlantic Apparel Association, which originally was called the Slate Belt Association, okay, and that Association was a collective group of people that negotiated with the union, with the ILGWU for their contracts. Whereas the Lehigh Valley Needle Trades Association was born as a self-help organization to help promote the apparel industry and to be able to share ideas. Because for many many years those that were in the garment business [didn't] really talk to each other about who they were working for or how they were doing things. It was this real secretive like you didn't allow anybody else to come into your factory because you didn't want them to see what you're doing. So at one point my father said well this is crazy. We're all in this together. We should be able to help each other and promote the industry. That it had become an industry that was really no longer a sweatshop industry. That many, many of the factories had been modernized, air-conditioned. . . GE: Do you know about what time that was? LH: Starting mostly in the late 50s [early] 60s. People started to really modernize and upgrade. So anyway my father and a few of his friends got together, and they said let's put together an association. I do have the names, I'm trying to remember, but I'll get you the names of the couple people. GE: Like who were the other people that were involved with its start. And just so I understand, you say it was something with instead of competing against each other maybe we can all just grow the industry together with the best practices. LH: Correct, that's correct. So one of my father's, our neighbors, was a gentleman named Jim Chambers. Jim Chambers ran an advertising agency, so my father knew him and sat down with him, and he said we're going to make you Executive Director of the new Lehigh Valley Needle Trades Association. . . and it was born. I think at one time we had different number of members at different times. I know, at times we had as many as 30 local apparel firms that were members. GE: And these were the contractors as well as what other types? LH: As well as men we had manufacturers, we had dyeing and finishing firms, knitting firms ; you know anybody who felt that they really could benefit by belonging to an association like what we had. And it really opened doors. It got to the point where, you know what, if you needed a certain type of machinery that you didn't have and instead of going out and buying it you could call somebody up and say, "Hey do you happen to have one of these that you're not using that I could borrow for a while." It's interesting, in this picture ; this is my father, this is a gentleman named Gerson Lazar, he had a factory called Cata Garment. He was one of the original founders. And this is Jim Chambers. This was gentleman named Jerry Katz, his father had a company was called K and M Manufacturing, and I believe this gentleman was from FIT, I think. Anyway, so Mr. Lazar was a tough cookie, but what I loved about him, he loved buying new equipment. The latest thing in the market he'd run out and buy it. And if I wanted to see it, he would welcome me into his plant, and I would see what he's doing. Many times . . . he didn't put a lot of research into buying equipment before he jumped in. So often the equipment he bought didn't work out. But I give him a lot of credit for doing that, and he probably had one of the most modern factories in Allentown, and in the Lehigh Valley at the time, he really did. GE: What did his factory make? LH: Pants, ladies' pants. It was a nice, very nice factory. You know that people don't realize at one time the apparel industry, and I'm not including knitting, dyeing, finishing, in the Lehigh Valley, we were collectively the largest employer in the Lehigh Valley. We were bigger than Bethlehem Steel as many as 24-25,000 people worked in the apparel industry. In the State of Pennsylvania, I believe overall we were the second largest employer next to Bethlehem Steel and US Steel. It's incredible. And a lot of people made a living. It's interesting because back then what I always hated was, we were considered a low-wage industry. Well the problem was they were comparing us to Bethlehem Steel and Mack Truck where people were making $15-$20 an hour, and I'm talking back in the '60s. Whereas, it's interesting, I'd say as long ago as at least 30 years ago we had what we called a shop average of eight or nine dollars an hour. Thirty years ago, that was considered low-wage. We had factories that had shop average is $10 an hour, $14 an hour, but we were still considered low-wage industries. Through the Association we started the Allentown Sewing School because there was a time when everybody was busy. The labor market, virtually nobody existed and what everybody was doing, everybody was trying to steal help from somebody else which was really not good for any of us. So we started a sewing school. GE: This was about what time period? LH: I'm thinking in the late 60s early 70s, I think. I think initially we got funding from the state. GE: And was this something that a woman did or person did after they graduated high school? LH: Yes, yes. GE: How long was the training? LH: It depended-- six weeks, eight weeks maybe a little longer depending. GE: This was obviously to increase your supply of skilled labor. LH: And virtually anybody who graduated from that school had a job. Period. And then that went on for a number of years, and it was quite successful. GE: When you say a number of years, can you give a sense of 5 years, 10 years? LH: Twenty years, maybe. Also, through the Association, we started a class at the Vo-tech School at the Lehigh County Vo-tech School and at the Bethlehem Vo-tech School. Which, again, both very successful courses. In fact, the one in Bethlehem, we had a woman there who was just incredible. And a lot of her students went on to FIT and the Philadelphia Textile. And I was involved in all of that, and it was an exciting time in the '60s, '70s. By then we started... As I said earlier, my father in the 50s was working from men's and boy's companies, and as that started to die off, we ended up getting into the women's. So over the years we worked for... basically you mention the name we work for them. okay Liz Claiborne back then we worked for companies like Bobbie Brooks, I don't know if you remember them. We work for companies called College Town. Who's the big one in Philly that I just heard about his closing?...Jones New York, Sidney Kimmel. Did you ever hear of Sidney Kimmel. The Kimmel Center in Philadelphia ; he was the benefactor of the Kimmel Center. That was his company. Just recently I heard they were (makes a sound). They were one of the giants of the industry. We worked for Ship'n Shore. A lot of these companies we started with them almost in the beginning. Again, it's interesting, a lot of these women's firms were sweater manufacturers who then decided to go into what we called the cut and sewn knitwear. So a lot of them, we were there at the beginning when they first started, but again in Philadelphia you had huge companies Devon's Apparel and Clean Casuals. These were all companies we worked for at different times. GE: So for Devon and Clean, were you doing the cutting and sewing? LH: Yes. GE: Ok, they were the brains? LH: Yeah SC: Was this a factor when you went from manufacturing to coming into contracting? LH: Yeah, well I should back up and tell you one thing. At one point, I don't remember when this was, late 40s maybe in the early 50s. My father decided he wanted to get out of the business. So we sold this factory to a gentleman who had come here from New York, and that company became Allison Manufacturing. His name was Wharton Schneider. So my father, at that point, went to work in my grandfather's furniture store in Northampton. After maybe six months, nine months he decided that's not for him, but he had made a codicil with Mr. Schneider that he would not go back into business for certain period of time, so he went to Mr. Schneider, and he said that he'd like to go back into business. And Mr. Schneider allowed him to do that. As a result, he and Mr. Schneider - I'd say, Mr. Schneider became my father's best friend for the rest of his life. GE: When you say Mr. Schneider is that related to Irwin Schneider? LH: No, they're not related. GE: That's a different family. LH: Yeah, this Allison manufacturing made basically T-shirts that they screen-printed, and their licenses were with like Disney. The one that put them on the map was Daniel Boone, but big. They employ here in Allentown, they employed over 300 people, 350 people here. But there were many real icons in the Lehigh Valley. You had the gentleman that owned Phoenix Clothes, Berkowitz I don't remember his first name. They employed at one time, 1,500 people. I don't necessarily think they all were here because he also had another factory somewhere else in Pennsylvania but big, they made men's suits. Then you had a place like Cross Country Clothes in Northampton employed 900, a thousand people. GE: What family was that? LH: Billera. GE: I think they're still around, right? LH: They're no longer in the industry. There were originally five brothers, five Billera Brothers. They were huge. These were big companies. There was a company called Penn State Mills here in Allentown. GE: What was the family name? LH: Lesavoy family. Big company. They were manufacturers. I'm trying to think of sho some of the other really big, really big ones. There was one in Fountain Hill called Fountain Hill Mills. Their name was Meislin. GE: Was that Ruth Meislin's husband? LH: Could be, could be. There were two. There was father originally, a father and two sons. It was Nate Meislin and can't remember his brother's name. GE: I don't know I just remember her husband died young. LH: But these were big companies, and then you had the knitting companies: Fair Tex Mill that was Berman family. GE: Ok, that was Shirley Berman's husband. LH: I think so. Again, there were two brothers. Then you had the dyeing and finishing. There was a plant here called the Seco Mills. GE: What family was that? LH: Right now, I can't remember his name. There were other large ones that I can't remember. Back then there were primarily two trucking companies that served the garment industry in this area. One was Silver Line and the other one was called Interstate Dress Carriers. GE: Do you know what families ran those? LH: Interstate Dress Carriers was a gentleman named Lieberman, I believe. I mean these people were big. I mean, there was a whole interesting history. GE: Were they from this area? LH: No, New York. These were very different times that some of these people were connected. Do you know what I'm saying when I say connected? GE: We do. Are you saying Mafia? LH: [Larry shrugs]I'll tell you a quick story. When I first was working for my father. . . Back then, and I'm not going to make it a long story. Back then you used either Silver Line or Interstate that was it, period. So one day, I was working in the shipping room, and I had called for Silver Line to come at a certain time to pick up. They didn't show up, so I called Interstate. They came, picked up. I don't know if it was the next day or the day after, my father calls me into the office one day and there two gentlemen sitting there, and he said we heard that you use Interstate instead of Silver Line. One guy's name was Whitey that's all I remember. Whitey had a gun, okay, I don't remember [who] other guy was. You know, my father said to me, "We use Silver Line, we don't use Interstate." and I said, "Okay, okay." I got the message. Yeah, I remember Whitey. GE: Thank you, that was great, it filled in a lot of chunks of the overall industry. What about, let's go back and just share with us the history of your father, your family business. I know you told us a little bit it's called A Town Manufacturing, but that looks like it ended early. And so just tell us a little bit, what factories and-- LH: Well, we had you know at one point my sister got involved with her boyfriend, let's say, and she wanted to marry him. My father felt, well, okay, and he thought, okay, we'll bring him into the business. But first, what he did, his name was David Lily, and he sent David to FIT for a one-year program. David then came back downtown and came into the business with us. So what happened is at one point we had one factory, and we now had four families we had the support. So we decide well the only way we could do that was we have to get bigger, we have to grow so what we did is first we bought another factory that was over on the east side of Allentown. We named that factory Knit Wits. We then bought two other factories, which we combined into one, and that was located more in the west end of Allentown called Hirsch Manufacturing. So collectively at one point we employed at least 250 people between the three factories. GE: This is at what time? LH: I'd say again, late 60s early 70s, and we grew to the point where we were shipping at times between 4 and five thousand dozen a week. GE: And this is women's? LH: Women's, well we then got into . . . . we made pants, shorts, tops. You name it, we were making. GE: This is all cut and sew. LH: Yes, we then, at one point, got into embroidery, doing embroidery through one of our manufacturers we worked for. So that something else that we could offer a customer to do you know besides cutting, sewing, and finishing. GE: Was the embroidering, did it ever become a large part of the business, or was it very specialized. LH: Actually, it was part of the business. Eventually it was separated from the business. It became its own entity. GE: I assume, is that a little bit more of a higher margin. In other words, I assume the other had a lot of competition, had a lower margin, while something like this is more specialized, so there's a higher margin. LH: Yes, yes, yes. SC: Was it for women's clothing, was it embroidery font? LH: Well, initially was started just doing little logos. I don't know if you remember a company called Hang Ten. Hang Ten had like to two feet embroidered on the shirts. That's how we started doing embroidery was for Hang Ten. [some back and forth discussion that is inaudible] At that time it was mostly logos. So as I said we got to the point where we were one of the largest. GE: And that was under Hirsch. LH: Mainly, people knew as his Allentown Manufacturing. We were one of the largest apparel producers in the Lehigh Valley for the type of stuff we produced. Ship'n Shore was one of our big customers. GE: You want to share with us maybe the last 10 years as it started to . . . First of all, how long was your company in business? LH: Well, my father closed up his factory, closed up Allentown Manufacturing, he had been in business for about 50 years, I think it was. So he closed up about, it's now going on 30 years ago. GE: So about 1985. LH: Yeah, he had to close. I mean the business . . . What had happened was that over the years, especially, we were in the women's apparel, most of those companies that we worked for were connected, were union. They belong to the International Ladies' Garment Workers Union. So when we work for them, they would pay a lot of the benefits for us to the union. Well, what happened was that percentage that they were paying kept going up and up and up, and the only way they could escape the union . . . Now some tried to go down south, but they still had to pay the union. So that's really, in my opinion, that's really when stuff started going overseas. That they felt the only way they could escape the union is to go overseas. So that started taking the work away from us. So as those union manufacturers started to disappear, we then had to work for companies that were not associated with the union. Therefore, we had to pay these percentages to the union, okay, which at times got to be as much as 20% of our payroll went to the union. I mean, 20%. When you think of 20% on top of Worker's Comp., unemployment compensation, we were paying over 30%. On top of every dollar that somebody earned, we were paying. And then even those companies started going overseas. So eventually the handwriting was on the wall that we just couldn't do it anymore. So my brother-in-law and I at that point decided we kind of set a certain date that we were going to close up, that that was going to be it. Well at the last minute my father changed his mind and decided as he put it he owed it to the people to try and stay in business. And I said to him, "Dad," I said, "I've already started my own factory." I said, "I can't stay here anymore." And he said, "Okay, that's okay." But he had some issues with the union, so we went into New York one day to try and work things out, and the union said, "No. This is what we want, take it or leave it." And he said [makes a sound] that's it. He came home, and the next day he closed the factory. GE: This was about 1985? LH: Yeah GE: And then you said that you were starting your own factory. LH: Yes, I started my own factory not connected to the union. It was nice, it was a nice little factory. It was called The Garment Works. And I took over the building that we had had Knitwits in over on the East Side. I took over that building. GE: What did you make here, and for whom did you make it? LH: Well, again, I was, I primarily was making children's, more children's knitwear and then went along pretty nicely for maybe 10 years. GE: Wow that was one of the last ones. LH: Yeah, maybe a little less than 10 years. Had a nice factory. At one time, maybe I employed as many as 40 people. Then again, some of those people that I was working for started disappearing, going out of business, so then what I did . . . Before I closed the factory, I started doing what we called, we did pressing, finishing, and packaging for companies. Because around that time what became very big was garment-dyed garments, garments that were dyed after they were sewn. And a lot of them needed to be pressed and packaged and what have you. So I started doing that. GE: You kind of got into this particular specialty. LH: Yes, and I had the equipment to do it. SC: Was this a place on the East Side that had really a lot of people who lived there that wanted to work at your factory? I mean, it would seem to me and maybe-- LH: On the East Side? SC: Of Allentown. LH: Yeah, I had a lot of employees that came from the east side as well as other places, but that's not where I did that the packaging and finishing. That I did in the building we had in the West Side, in the West End where again we had had a factory in there, and I took over part of that building, and that's where I did all my-- because to do what I was doing you needed a lot of room. And then you know that was pretty good for a few years. Then one of the big companies I worked for moved to El Salvador. Another big company I worked for they went out of business completely. And then at that point I kinda saw the handwriting on the wall and I said, "Well, this is it." GE: And this was around 93, 94, that type of time period. LH: Yeah, probably, year, maybe . . . No maybe it was later, even later than that. Because that was pretty good. I worked for a company called Wright Knitwear, big company. They were up in Schuylkill Haven, Orwigsburg, Allentown . . . Their main account was Walmart. GE: What was the family name who owned that? LH: You know what I don't remember. GE: But they were not an Allentown family. LH: No, so I did a lot of work for them. I did sewing and the packaging for them. Good company, you know, and they're the ones that moved to El . .. You know Walmart beat them to death and being that over 50% of their business was with Walmart . . .And Walmart said, the guy told me one day, he said Walmart said to us, "You know the 50,000 dozen that you made for us last year. . . Yeah . . . we want to pay you less than we did last year." You know it got to the point of how cheap is cheap. You know. So they moved everything to El Salvador. Just so they could still produce the goods cheap enough for Walmart. You know what, and after that I never set foot in Walmart ever again, ever. And I knew other people that were put out of business also by Walmart, and I said I will never, ever buy anything from them ever again. GE: I rarely do, but I won't say never. LH: You know it's just terrible what they did single-handedly did really to the apparel industry. It was incredible, and people don't really understand that either. GE: Let's see in terms of, I'm sorry, the Lehigh Valley Alliance? LH: The Lehigh Valley Needle Trades? GE: Yes, The Lehigh Valley Needle Trades, so that began in the 60s, and how long did that last? LH: At least I think 25 years. GE: Ok until about 90, around that time period? Is that right? LH: Yeah. GE: And during that time, it sounds like you and your father were very active. Were you employed at the Needle Trades, or were you a volunteer? LH: Yeah the only person that got paid was Jim Chambers. GE: You were just founding members. LH: Yeah, my father was the original president of the Association. GE: Were you a president? LH: Yes. GE: So you were very, very active in it, but you were not actually employed. LH: Yes, I mean, we did, we really some amazing things. One year . . . well here's what we did, this how this came about. The very first year my father and Jim Chambers approached the then governor Scranton. I believe it was through our local state senator you know what I can picture him, but I can't remember his name. He was very helpful to us. The governor declared a certain week as state apparel week, usually in around April. So what we would do every year we go to Harrisburg for the governor to sign the proclamation making it Pennsylvania Apparel Week. We then would have a banquet, every year we would have a banquet. First-year, governor Scranton and his wife came to the banquet. It was really something. One of our member firms made dresses, they made a dress for the first lady, which was modeled at the banquet. I remember it was at the old Americus Hotel and there was this long winding staircase that came down into the banquet room and the model came down this staircase modeling the dress for the first lady. So you know somewhere I have another picture of me with our governor Milton Shapp. Remember, he was our governor. GE: Yes, yes, he was in the late 70s. So your family, you and your father were very, very active in the trade association. LH: Yes. GE: Will you tell us about your father's and your activity in the Jewish community in the broader Lehigh Valley or Allentown Community. LH: That's an interesting point that I have discussed with some people recently in that why weren't more Jewish people active in local politics. Interesting very interesting. I don't know the exact answer of that. I tend to think some of it may have had to do with not wanting to be too visible. You know because when you consider who some of the local industry people were they certainly could become mayor, senators, you name it. But they, for the most part, chose to stay out of politics. GE: How about organizations--Kiwanis, Rotary, Chamber of Commerce, any of those things? LH: We were a member of Chamber of Commerce. I at one time, when I was president of the Association, I was also on the Board of Directors of the Chamber of Commerce, and I was also on the board of directors of what was then called Manpower, which was the state agency that provided funding for training. So one time, the funding for our sewing school was through them, through Manpower. It was interesting how we did that. We couldn't get direct funding, but what they did is they decided we would get funding for the teacher because she was learning to be a teacher, and that's how we got the funding. We always managed, sometimes we would get a grant from the city or the state. But yes, going back to what you said, my father was almost lifelong member of Kiwanis. He was an um-- GE: Rotary? LH: No, not Kiwanis. I can't remember what it's called, but he had a ring. GE: Shriners, Masons? LH: Yes, Mason, he was a Mason. Very active in the synagogue. GE: Which synagogue? LH: Temple Beth El. GE: How about your mom? LH: My mother was active at Temple Beth El one time she was president of the sisterhood. GE: And I'm sorry, tell us what your mother's name is again. LH: Mildred was always very active in B'nai B'rith. GE: How about Hadassah? LH: Hadassah, yeah. GE: Ok, what is your sense of how both the Jewish community as well as the larger community was affected by the disappearance of this industry? LH: I think honestly, in my personal opinion, I think the Lehigh Valley lost its identity, I really do. I mean what are we identified with today? The largest employer in the Lehigh Valley is Lehigh Valley Hospital. Is that what we're identified with today, I don't know. You know, one time it was Mack truck, and it was, of course, in Bethlehem, it was Bethlehem Steel. But it was also the apparel industry. The other thing I think was affected . . . There were a lot of men in the apparel industry that made a lot of money. Some of them made a lot of money while they were in business ; some of them made money when they sold their business. For instance, I mentioned up Wharton Schneider, Allison Manufacturing, he sold his company to Beatrice foods years ago. A lot of the companies that we worked for were bought by larger companies. London Fog . . . So I think Fair-Tex Mills was bought out at one time so a lot of these people were very large contributors to, for instance, the Jewish Community Center, the Jewish Day School, UJA. I mean, I'm talking, I can remember, what was it, the Six-Day War, when they had an emergency meeting at the at the Jewish Community Center to raise money, and people got up and pledged $25,000, $10,000 and you know and that's back in, what, 1967. Five thousand--I mean, I was like . . . that was $25,000, and that was a lot. I mean, it's a lot of money today, back then . . . huge, huge! So I don't really know what happened, you know, I think there was a period of time when some of those organizations did start to struggle because they weren't getting the type of contributions that they once were. Whereas today the contributors are doctors and lawyers, no longer businessmen or industrialists. It's the doctors who are making the money today. So that's a big change, big change. GE: And then just any thoughts that you might have in terms of why the Jewish community was certainly over-represented in this industry? LH: In the garment industry? GE: In the garment industry. LH: Oh, I think most of that came from Europe. As I said, my grandfather was trained in Europe. You know in Europe for many, many, many years you basically only went to school up to a certain grade and then in certain cases you took a test. If they didn't feel your aptitude was to go on to higher education you went into learning a trade, which essentially . . . my grandfather always considered himself like the black sheep of the family. So even the names, even the names: Schneider. A Schneider okay is a tailor, so I think that's where a lot of that came from, you know. They came to this country through Ellis Island, a lot of them ended up in New York, New York City and one of the few places they could work or make a living, if you call it that, were in the sweatshops. At one time New York City, I believe, was . . . the largest producer of apparel in the world was New York City. GE: Before I turn it over to Sue, there was a question I wanted to ask you when you got out around 1995 were you able to sell your businesses? LH: No, I just had to close-up. GE: How about the buildings, do you still own the buildings? LH: Well, after I went out of business, I basically took over because now we had empty buildings. GE: How many? LH: Three, so we had to try and rent them, so that became my new job was trying to, in some cases renovate and to rent. GE: How has that worked out? LH: It worked out pretty well for a number of years. I think we were fortunate in that at one point we had a tenant, the building was over there on Madison Street, and tenant came to me and said they wanted to buy the building, so we eventually sold the building to the tenant. Then the building that we had downtown, the same thing we got to the point where I first had one offer to buy the building. That fell through. And then I had another offer to buy the building and my father and I finally said, "Okay it's time, it's time to let it go." GE: So, at this point you don't own any of them. LH: No. SC: And do you know the addresses of the buildings, even if it's just the street? LH: Our main factory was at 315 Linden St. and is now being converted to apartments. GE: It took a long time. LH: When we bought that building and moved in there, there were 500 people working in that building in the apparel business. Just in that building alone. Yeah, that was 315 the other one was 327 North Madison St. And then the other one on the east side was 11 South Dauphin St. You know - just to throw out - you had the companies for instance like to Perlman and Levine who... GE: And Levine is the sewing store? Is that who you mean? LH: Yes, at one time they had sewing store, but their major business was buying and selling fabric. In other words, a manufacturer would design and produce what they wanted for the season, so the end of the season, they'd have fabric leftover so companies like Levine would buy the fabric. And they occupied several buildings in Allentown filled with, I mean, an unbelievable amount of fabric. GE: Because of what I knew is they had fabric stores. They had a big fabric store downtown. LH: Yes, yes, one time they had a few of them. Yeah, nice people. I think the one time there were like 4 brothers involved but what they also did, this was interesting, when I first started with my father, when we would do cutting. . . you know you don't use every inch of fabric you have fallout, clippings whatever you call it, and we would put all of that in these big burlap bags, okay, and sell it to Levine's. GE: Also, is that also Sheftel? LH: Yes, Sheftel also did that. And at one time, I remember my father told me he would get enough money from the clippings to pay for the rent. But it was interesting as the years went by, and we started producing more and more man-made fibers: orlon, nylon, polyester. Initially a lot of that was recycled and remade into polyester thread, but as time went on, it became cheaper to produce it new than to recycle it. So then the value of the clippings went down to nothing. Your money, dollar bills, are made of paper that is made from hundred percent white cotton that comes from clippings. GE: Will shared with us that apparently, that was very much the basis of his success to be the supplier of this paper. LH: But also at one time, years ago, we had what they called linoleum, the backing linoleum was made from recycled clippings. Okay, the head liners in a car were made from recycled material. GE: I wonder if they still are just getting it from a different source. I don't know. LH: So, the apparel industry was very big in recycling. GE: Yes, early. LH: Really. Even early on, even a lot of the machines that we use had a knife on them, so as you sewed, it not only sewed the edge, but it trimmed it. So you'd have these trimmings that would fall on the floor we would sweep those up and put that in burlap bags and Levine's would take it. GE: So Levine's was also just as Sheftel was with the scraps. That's interesting because I do know Ira Levine, that's one of Levine's sons. We'll have to add his name to our list. LH: There was also Perlman, M S Perlman, and Sons [correct name is MS Perlman & ; Co.]. GE: Were they a part of the same, were they in business together or they in two separate ones. LH: You mean, Levine's? It was two separate companies. And that was big business. That was really very big business. GE: And how terrific was it that nothing was wasted. LH: Yeah, we didn't waste anything, we really didn't. SC: Are the Perlmans still around? LH: I know the son, his name is Alan, Alan Perlman. I think he still . . . I don't know. I've heard different things, whether it's true or not, I don't know. I heard that he was maybe doing something in conjunction with the Sheftels. I don't know that for a fact. I don't think Ira is doing much anymore. GE: I don't think so either. But he would be able to share with us a little bit with us about the family because he was in the business at one time. LH: Yeah, in fact, the building, after they tore down my father's building, he moved into a building on Gordon Street downtown, and the building was owned by Levine's. So . . . here's a picture. We used to put out a monthly newsletter. SC: Oh, wow, beautiful. LH: Needlepoint . . . the whole thing. Here's Esther Halperin, Irwin Schneider. GE: Ok, great, and we interviewed both of them. LH: There's my father. You can read the articles in here. SC: May we copy it? LH: Sure. Here's. . . One month, Jim decided he wanted to do a feature article on my family so here's a picture [Larry shows the picture]. This is my grandfather, myself, my brother-in-law and my father. Here's another picture of us in the factory. My grandfather wore, I never saw my grandfather wear anything other than a white shirt, okay, and a suit. I mean he would take the suit coat off, but he always wore a white shirt and a suit. And I'll never forget he always told me, he said, "You never wear shorts in the factory." GE: I wonder if that was for safety. LH: No, he didn't feel he said if you're a manager or whatever, then you dress appropriately. Then this one here's a picture of me. This was the year I became president of the Needle Trades. And that's a picture of me. SC: It's such a good late 70s, 1980s picture with the beard. LH: Yeah, I had that beard for 20 years. GE: You know I wouldn't recognize Esther, and it's just a little picture, but I'm saying I really wouldn't have recognized her. LH: Now, Esther, did you interview Esther? SC: Yes, we did. GE: And that was a wonderful interview. And you know I recognize your father. I just didn't know. But I recognize your father from the synagogue. LH: He was still going to synagogue. Over three years ago, I brought him back up here from Florida, and he was living at Country Meadows, but we had a woman that would take him to synagogue every Saturday morning. GE: Oh, that's nice. SC: Well I have a couple of sorts of theoretical or thought questions. The first one is what do you value most in life? LH: My children and my grandchildren. See, I didn't hesitate. SC: And what has made you feel the most artistic or creative or sort of satisfied in life? LH: I think that when I was in a business that I was really good at what I did. I think we, at one time, we had an operation that was, at times when I think back, I wonder how did we do it? How did we produce five thousand dozen a week, how did we do that? You know you have to be doing something right. And I think I've prided myself on producing a quality garment, a real quality garment. We stood behind . . .if we did something wrong, we made it right. I'll tell you a quick story. One year we started work for a new company. I was making ladies tops with a zipper down the back. One day my grandfather comes to me with a garment, and he throws this garment down on the table, and he says, "Tell me what's wrong with that garment." I went over that garment with a fine-tooth comb, and I said, "I don't see anything wrong with this garment." He said, "The zipper's supposed to be in the back." The zipper was in the front. And I went oh my God, oh my God. Now, fortunately, it wasn't every piece okay, but needless to say we didn't do any work for that company after that. It ended up we had to buy the shirts that had the zipper in the front. SC: But now it's style, and they would expose the zipper in the back. GE: It's amazing the difference. LH: My grandfather, he was wonderful. He would go . . . During the winter, in Florida, he was bored. So he would go . . . He didn't have a car and didn't drive in Florida. He would go to department stores in Miami, Miami Beach, and he would walk around and look at garments to see how they were made, trying to get ideas. Sometimes he would buy one and send it up here, and there were many times that he saw something with the way something was done that we then adopted in the factory that saved us money. GE: He either saw things that were time-saving or labor-saving. LH: Yes, yes. GE: You know one thing we did just briefly we want to touch upon. How about your relationship with your employees? You didn't talk about that. LH: I mean personally, I think, overall, I had very good relationships with the employees. At times my father felt I was too tough, but overall, you know what, I never felt that I was better than they were. I never asked anybody to do something that I wouldn't do myself. And that included cleaning the toilets, truthfully. I can tell you how many times I cleaned toilets. I will say that over the years, once in a while, when I would run into somebody who had worked for us . . . In fact, when my father passed away, on one of those websites where you can do-- GE: Oh, like the obituary? SC: That you can leave comments and memories. LH: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody wrote in there that he was the most wonderful boss that she ever had, and working for him was an honor. I've come across employees that have said to me that it was the best place they ever worked. GE: And in your business who among you was the one that really dealt with the manufacturing, who was getting that business? LH: Well, initially my father did. My father was not the kind of guy, he was not on the floor, you know, doing the daily tasks. My father loved to schmooze, okay. He'd love to entertain the customers. Take them out to lunch to Hess's Patio, take them out to play golf, take them to lunch. So a lot of that, as time went on, fell to me. Where I would work mostly directly with the accounts. And then I would go into New York regularly. I can't tell you how much time I spent beating the streets of New York, knocking on doors. But what's interesting is as much as I did that the best accounts that we ever got were referrals. Somebody who knew us from someone. One company may have moved to another company and remembered us and then came to us. Or we were recommended by somebody so that I think is really saying a lot for what we did. GE: I'm looking at this, and I see James Hartzell. LH: Yeah. GE: We interviewed him as well. LH: Ok, sure. GE: And I see that you and he together look like when you were president, and he was vice president. SC: And they're still in business. Making pet clothing. LH: What does he do? GE: He does a little bit of custom-made outfits for pets. LH: Oh, really? GE: Yes. SC: Yes, these tiny little things. LH: He was a nice guy. I liked him a lot. And he is one that I saw at the last function that you had. GE: That's right ; he was there. Yes, yes. LH: I hadn't seen him for years! Now Irwin Schneider, when we bought . . . Okay the building we had down on Linden Street we bought from this gentleman Gerson Lazar, he owned the building. We bought it from him, and one of his tenants was Irwin Schneider. GE: May I see that picture? I've heard the name Gerson Lazar, but I think he's gone a long time. LH: Yeah. GE: So I think that's it. And then maybe we can make copies of the pictures, but I am going to have to write on the back of our copies who they are because we won't know. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Larry Hirsch, June 23, 2015
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Larry Hirsch talks about how his father got started in the apparel business with his grandfather. Larry’s grandfather was a skilled tailor who would make the patterns from the drawings or sketches of their clients. They started making young girl’s sunsuits, then making men’s and boy’s polo shirts, later making women’s knitwear. The Hirsch family were founding members of the Lehigh Valley Needle Trades Association. The purpose of the association was to have owners work together to promote the industry and share ideas. Larry’s father closed his factory in 1985. Larry and his brother-in-law started their own apparel factory and ran that for another ten years.
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LVTNT-12
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2015-05-23
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
Oral History
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
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Seth Katzman
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5.4 May 25, 2016 Seth Katzman, May 25, 2016 LVTNT-29 1:07:35 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Seth Katzman Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 KatzmanSeth_20160525 1.0:|19(2)|38(13)|61(6)|82(2)|105(3)|130(7)|155(7)|178(19)|203(3)|228(4)|251(4)|274(9)|297(5)|324(4)|347(14)|374(8)|399(12)|424(6)|445(12)|472(6)|499(2)|526(2)|551(8)|574(8)|599(13)|624(15)|649(11)|672(10)|695(14)|722(7)|737(3)|754(14)|777(11)|806(3)|833(13)|870(3)|901(6)|924(18)|947(7)|972(6)|995(15)|1022(3)|1051(4)|1076(9)|1105(11)|1136(13)|1163(15)|1194(11)|1221(10)|1248(14)|1277(3)|1304(4)|1329(2)|1360(8)|1387(8)|1412(3)|1433(14)|1460(5)|1487(4)|1512(10)|1539(13)|1566(3)|1587(12)|1614(8)|1643(15)|1672(9)|1699(14)|1702(9) 0 https://youtu.be/UqqG8LRCHbA YouTube video 0 Katzman's Life Before the Business Today is May 25 and we’re going to start with and this is 2016, and we’re going to start with your life story because it interweaves for what we’re doing and for instance, we are looking at women this year and so we want to have all of this even though it’s long. So if you would give your full name, where you were born, and when you were born and talk about your early life and from the time you were born and any memories that you think have been important. 0 303 Education at FIT [A]nd at that point before I went to the business, my father said well you should go to FIT, and FIT is the Fashion Institute of Technology. So what happened, my brother, since I was going to the business, my brother had graduated before I had, he was five years older than I was. He was in the Peace Corps and doing different things, hadn't really settled on anything he wanted to do, and he said ‘well since you're going into the business, maybe I'll try with you.’ So we both went to FIT...
 ; 0 412 History of the Business Just to give you a little background about our business, my father was actually in the business a long time, in the apparel business. He wasn't in this particular business that long that he had. My father and my uncle had started a business, really manufacturing t-shirts to start out with. They had a couple different plants and that’s one of the reasons he moved to Allentown. 0 492 Managing the Pine Grove Contracting Business So when I came along, my brother and I both started in the business. He had a manager at the time, he didn’t plan to replace his manager, he figured we would learn the business with him and then see what would happen. As it turned out, after about two months my manager decided he was going to go into his own business, in the flower business or something. So he quit after two months, so I ended up taking over the production there. 0 595 Change and Competition in the Garment Industry That changed relatively quickly in a year or two because what happened is the garment industry itself started to change a lot. You had a lot of competition from the South, and then within a couple years you had competition from Chinatown and overseas. In the beginning, Chinatown was actually cheaper than overseas because they never paid minimum wage in Chinatown, and it was always a problem there. We were a union plant so I always had to deal with the union and the employees. 0 848 Adaptation and Growth: From Associations to Private Labor So really what happened is in my father's business, I said he had one customer, and I used to go into New York every, pretty much every other week, what was needed. Because they helped me learn the business actually about the pricing, and they gave me different things to price, and I worked for manufacturing people there because they gave us a lot of different stuff. We did a tremendous amount of styles. Women's clothing had a tremendous amount of style, and it was dresses. What took place in a few years was they moved away from Pennsylvania doing manufacturing, so I had to find other work so I would go to New York City and knock on the different doors to make sure that I had enough work for the plant I started doing different things. 0 1075 The End of the Pine Grove Business—Offshoring to Mexico But then essentially when it got to be the later 90s, everything went offshore, and I couldn’t stay in Pine Grove. And even though I had good relationships with the union and the help, and we were in Pine Grove a long time, I felt bad in a way. You know, but I tried to do what I could and we transitioned out, and I ended up closing the factory over there. I still moved to Allentown, I moved my operations to Allentown, but I had to go to Mexico.
 ; 0 1301 '80s-90s: Struggling Production in Reading and Pine Grove SC: I’d like to take you back to your family history, as far back as you know, but I have one question, which union?
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 ; SK: ILGWU
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 ; SC: Okay, that’s what I thought, but yes, and also, there was another question I had with how far was Pineville from Reading?
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 ; SK: Pine Grove from Reading is…
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 ; SC: Pine Grove, I’m sorry.
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 ; SK: Pine Grove from Reading is approximately 45 miles
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 ; SC: Because they had all the outlets by that time, all the stores and the business, weren’t they? Reading was still producing when you were...?
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 ; SK: Actually my uncle was still in business at that time. He was in manufacturing, but they had problems also with that, even the manufacturing. 0 1455 Family History SC: Could you talk about the names you know in your dad’s family and your mother’s family? Where they came from as far back as you know.
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 ; SK: As far back as I know. Quick thing I never knew my grandparents really. I knew one grandparent ; my great-grandparents I never knew. They were long gone. My great grandparents-- actually from one side was from Poland I think. My parents . . . 0 1900 Legacies: Garment Businesses in the Lehigh Valley Today SK: You know, there’s another guy that is really Jewish, but not Jewish in a way, that might still be working in the Valley.
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 ; GE: Although it has happened to be mostly Jewish, it doesn’t have to be.
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 ; SK: There’s a guy here that’s still working actually, that does apparel stuff, he does embroidery, which is Lilly daVid. Now I don’t know if David, cause I haven’t talked to them in years, but I believe that they are still there because they do embroidery, they used to do embroidery for me all the time. 0 2025 From Rick Knit to Summit Station Manufacturing GE: Thank you. So a couple of follow-up questions, one,you’ll share those stories about the Miss America and about the other. Couple of follow up questions. One, what was the name of your businesses? Initially you were manufacturers right?
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 ; SK: Initially we were always contractors. We started out as a contractor.
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 ; GE: You did, your father did?
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 ; SK: My father did. And the name of the business was Summit Station Manufacturing.
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 ; GE: That was your father with the T-shirts? Correct?
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 ; SK: Well, no, my father and the T-shirts started out as Rick Knit. 0 2283 Expanding the Business: Goods and Clientele GE: Well do you want to share with us - so then it was really a matter, if I understand correctly, it was the matter of keeping your cost down, and that’s how you tried the Mexico...
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 ; SK: The beginning problem was actually getting work that you could actually make at a price. And I would go to different places and like I said, I ended up doing a lot of different things. I expanded out of dresses. I started doing blouses, sportswear. I went into running suits. I went into anything that we thought we could make. We actually made outerwear, too. For LandsEnd, we actually made outerwear, that’s how I got started with LandsEnd. 0 2568 Working with LandsEnd GE: So during this time, if I understand correctly, these were where you were doing a lot of small runs?
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 ; SK: Yeah, my business was [doing] a lot of small runs. That’s how I really survived. Later on by 1995 when I hired an outside sales person and he said I have contacts I think we can do business. And the reason he knew me was because when we started he found out I did some smaller runs through some of these guys. And we connected, I went to New York, I used to go to New York a lot. And in New York, we started talking and his name was Jim Stabile and he was working for somebody else at the time and said you know, I bet we could get together and do something. And, you know, you kind of listen, and they never do it and then one day, he called me and said I think we could do something, you want to come in? And we got to talking, and I said okay if you think you can do this, I’ll do this and that's what happened. We started getting sales and then I went out to LandsEnd. I would go out with him, and we would restructure some deals, and we actually got some contracts and that’s how I got started. 0 2981 Life After the Business GE: So at that point, you’re about 50 I assume. And so I’m just kind of wondering if you wanted to share with us what you’ve done since, um you know, in terms of how did you personally have to adapt, right?
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 ; SK: Well, when I left I actually liquidated the plant. I actually walked away. It cost me a lot of money, really a lot of money. Okay but, I almost thought that I would have to declare bankruptcy. Because of how I handled most of my customers, and I had good relationships with everybody, I was able to pay, repay everybody and that type of thing. When I say everybody, there’s only one person I didn’t really repay at the end, but they actually should have paid me. 0 3296 The Jewish Community in the Apparel Industry GE: So a couple of last questions before Sue gets back to you. What do you think about the community here? How has the community been affected, in terms of when it was 1950, when you were very young, there were many families that were in this business.
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 ; SK: You’re right, the community has definitely changed a lot. When I was growing up as a kid there were a lot of small businesses. In fact when I went to the synagogue, even in the Jewish community there were a lot of small businesses. In fact that was the majority of people, you had doctors and lawyers but the majority of givers, the people involved in the community, were all small business people. On that, in fact a lot of the givers to the [Jewish] Federation were from the garment business. 0 3750 Katzman's Artistry and Family Values SC: Okay, so I really only have two more questions, so one is what has made you feel most creative in life?
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 ; SK: What has made me most creative in life?
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 ; SC: Given you a sense of satisfaction or creativity or whatever other word you want to add?
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 ; SK: It's a mix, it's a mix of things for me because essentially I would say my family has been one of my key satisfactions in my life, no matter what because they have always been there, and I always have enjoyed them, proud of them. But one of the things, the garment business was a big change for me because I was a shy little guy. I'm still quiet, but it made me do things I would never do. 0 MovingImage Seth Katzman shares fond memories growing up in Allentown during the 1950s and 1960s. While attending Brandeis University Seth decided that rather than pursue his original plan to attend medical school, he would instead take over his father’s apparel contracting business. His father wanted to retire anyway. Seth’s older brother joined him initially in the business. Not many years later, the traditional sewing contracting business in Pennsylvania was diminishing and Seth had to adapt to the changing environment. Seth stayed in the apparel business until 1999, much later than many other contracting businesses in Pennsylvania. Interview with Seth Katzman, May 25, 2016 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is May 25 and we're going to start with and this is 2016, and we're going to start with your life story because it interweaves for what we're doing and for instance, we are looking at women this year and so we want to have all of this even though it's long. So if you would give your full name, where you were born, and when you were born and talk about your early life and from the time you were born and any memories that you think have been important. SETH KATZMAN: My name is Seth Katzman. I was born on March 28, 1950 in Brooklyn, New York in Methodist Hospital there. My family moved to Allentown when I was one-year-old so basically I consider myself an Allentownian, believe it or not. The rest of my family did live in New York at the time, probably around Queens. Most of my family, I should say my immediate family, was from New York at the time there, so when we moved out to Allentown, I should say my parents moved out to Allentown, it was a big move because everybody was in New York. It was unheard of that somebody would move to the Lehigh Valley away from the city. So essentially I grew up in Allentown, I went to the public schools in Allentown, we were members of Temple Beth El in Allentown. I went to Hebrew school at Temple Beth El, I got bar-mitzvahed at Temple Beth El, I got married at Beth El. Unfortunately I buried my parents as well at Temple Beth El over there. I have a long history just being in the Lehigh Valley overthere. So as a kid my mother, my parents were always involved with the Temple and at the Center. Actually my mother was very active on that. My father was also on the board of different things, so as a family we always went to services on a somewhat regular basis. I went to Hebrew school and everything. So I had a pretty normal, safe and good childhood in Allentown. Actually, my parents moved to 29th and Liberty St. At that time that was almost the end of town. There weren't any houses past 30th Street. I used to play in the fields out back as a kid. As I was growing up they kept building more and more homes. A lot of my friends and I became friendly with a lot of kids. Basically what I said, I went to public school and really formed a lot of different friendships over the time and as time moved along, graduated from William Allen High School and went to Brandeis University. I graduated from Brandeis. At Brandeis, I made a fateful decision, which was not to go to medical school. So instead my father had a business at the time, and I knew he wanted to retire. I think what happened was one of the reasons I didn't go to med school was I was getting tired of school. But also at the time I was seeing Kathy and I decided that I don't know if I really want another 8 to 10 years in school before I get out. I knew my father wanted to retire and I kind of just said 'okay I'll try the business on that,' and that's how I got into the garment business over there. Because really the only work experience I had besides the garment business was that I was a waiter at camp one summer. That was my total work experience before the garment industry. But I started out really driving my father to work because he had health problems. And I think by senior year of high school, during the summer, I drove him all summer to work and I would work in the factory for no pay. Just helping out with whatever they had doing there. And I did that for - I think it was two summers I did that. One summer I went to art school because one of the things I got interested in at Brandeis was art. I was doing painting and different things. So that's how I really got exposed to start with the business. So when I graduated, like I said, I really didn't decide to go into the business until close to graduation, and at that point before I went to the business, my father said well you should go to FIT, and FIT is the Fashion Institute of Technology. So what happened, my brother, since I was going to the business, my brother had graduated before I had, he was five years older than I was. He was in the Peace Corps and doing different things, hadn't really settled on anything he wanted to do, and he said 'well since you're going into the business, maybe I'll try with you.' So we both went to FIT, and the problem with FIT was it was kind of interesting, the professors were nice but I had just done four years of school. My brother's really an intellectual type, he had done a lot of reading in school, he graduated from Boston University, and we both looked at these courses and said 'jeez this is kind of a little slow for us.' And then it was good with the technical courses because we didn't have the technical background for the apparel. But the other courses they wanted us to take-- marketing and some different things-- were really I think really elementary to us. And we said could we speed this up, and what really happened was they didn't let us really speed it up. But what we did was we took the technical courses, kind of skipped the other courses, and by the end of the semester we were only going like one day a week. We were trying to just do technical things then we would just go home and work at that time. So by the time June came, we were done with FIT after about a year of doing that. We did make some interesting contacts and got to meet different professors and different things. So the summer 1973 I would say is when I started really working full time. When I started out, my father had a manager of his business. Just to give you a little background about our business, my father was actually in the business a long time, in the apparel business. He wasn't in this particular business that long that he had. My father and my uncle had started a business, really manufacturing t-shirts to start out with. They had a couple different plants and that's one of the reasons he moved to Allentown. I think they had a place in Hazleton, a place in Allentown, and a place in Reading. My uncle I think ran the place in Reading, and my father kind of took care of the ones in Hazelton and in Allentown. Rather than travel all the time from New York, he decided to move to the Valley. So as time went along they built their business, and I think beside t-shirts they started making golf shirts and after a certain period of time I think my father and my uncle had a falling out. My uncle bought my father out, but I think my father . . . I'm trying to think, 1965, he kind of got out of business but decided he couldn't retire. He didn't want to stay retired, so he ended up buying a contracting business in Pine Grove, Pennsylvania, which was a dress business contracting business, and that was the business I started in. So when I came along, my brother and I both started in the business. He had a manager at the time, he didn't plan to replace his manager, he figured we would learn the business with him and then see what would happen. As it turned out, after about two months my manager decided he was going to go into his own business, in the flower business or something. So he quit after two months, so I ended up taking over the production there. It was an experience because what did I know about production, I really had to learn everything from there. So at that point, I started to really do what I had to do to run the business. I had to learn all the things about pricing, production, and sewing. I learned how to sew ; I learned everything in the business. My father actually didn't know how to do those things. He knew the outside of the business-- he knew how to price, he knew about the sales part-- but he really didn't know the inside sewing part. So I had to run that, so that's really what I got to do. So it didn't take me too long, I mean I kind of started doing it. I went to New York on a frequent basis to learn about the buying from our manufacturer. At the time we were strictly a contractor. My father really only had one customer, and it was a question of how much you can get out the door. So it was a question of how good you were, were you doing your planning and production, and doing that. And that's really kind of how we made money was getting your production done, and if you had it priced right, and you did the quality right. That changed relatively quickly in a year or two because what happened is the garment industry itself started to change a lot. You had a lot of competition from the South, and then within a couple years you had competition from Chinatown and overseas. In the beginning, Chinatown was actually cheaper than overseas because they never paid minimum wage in Chinatown, and it was always a problem there. We were a union plant so I always had to deal with the union and the employees. We had about 50-75 employees. I think when I started it was 75 employees, and it kind of whittled down a little bit for various reasons which took place, but we had a fairly sizable operation for what we were doing. It was, as it was, antiquated-- it was an old building. We kept it in fairly good shape ; my father put air-conditioning in. It was fairly comfortable in the building and for the employees over there except when you were in the pressing room ; it didn't matter whether you had air conditioning or not. It was very hot, so as I learned that, after a year my brother decided he didn't like the business and left over there. Kathy and I had moved to Schuylkill Haven to start out with because I'd be at the plant, we would start at 7 o'clock in the morning, I was at the plant 6 to 6:30. I opened the plant and basically started running the plant. It was very long days. It was most likely from 6:30 getting there or getting there at 7 to 5:30- 6:00 o'clock at night. Because even though the plant really ran from, they worked seven hours a day. They might have been done but there was over time and then there was planning I had to do, and calls I had to take, and stuff like that so I really was there pretty much the full day of work. By the second year, we decided we didn't like Schuylkill Haven, and we moved to the booming metropolis of Lebanon, Pennsylvania. After living in Lebanon for about two years, we decided since it took 40 minutes from Lebanon to Pine Grove each day, and half for the extra 15 minutes, I might as well go to Allentown, and that's what we did in 1976/75. We moved to Allentown and then I would commute to Allentown to Pinegrove. So I would get up at 5:30 in the morning basically and go to-- in some cases I would get up earlier and I would go to the gym--to do that but that's pretty much what I did for 25 year. SC: And as far as the workers at Schuylkill Haven, were they mostly Eastern European by that time? SK: No, all the workers, we were in Schuylkill County. It was all Pennsylvania Dutch, all-white. There were no minorities. You just didn't have it. It was very close knit, in fact, I was the outsider. My father and I were the outsiders really. There weren't really too many Jewish people in Pine Grove. Actually, the optometrist was Jewish. There were a couple of other contractors or manufacturer ; actually I would say contractors in Pine Grove. There was another manufacturer called Canoe Mfcg. They were Jewish as well, they live in Reading. They had a sizable operation over there. There was another outerwear plant called Fox-Knapp that had been there a long long time. They were probably the first ones there. They probably had about 100 employees. Canoe probably had about maybe, they had a lot of employees, they might have had 200, I'm not exactly sure. And there was another small contractor, there might have been another small contractor there at the time. But really what happened in a few years was just the three of us left, and actually by the time I left Pine Grove, I was the only one left as an apparel manufacturer in Pinegrove. So really what happened is in my father's business, I said he had one customer, and I used to go into New York every, pretty much every other week, what was needed. Because they helped me learn the business actually about the pricing, and they gave me different things to price, and I worked for manufacturing people there because they gave us a lot of different stuff. We did a tremendous amount of styles. Women's clothing had a tremendous amount of style, and it was dresses. What took place in a few years was they moved away from Pennsylvania doing manufacturing, so I had to find other work so I would go to New York City and knock on the different doors to make sure that I had enough work for the plant. I started doing different things so I started doing blouses, I started doing dresses, I kept doing dresses, I would do slacks, I did sportswear of all different types on that. I also took work that wasn't union at the time when I started to think. After 2 to 3 years there I became involved in the dress contracting unit there you know which was a manufacturer's association for dresses. It was out of Wilkes Barre, but it had all the contractors around Eastern PA. That might've been 200 of us. GAIL EISENBERG: Was that the Delins? SK: No, that wasn't Deins, that was Atlantic Apparel. This was the counterpart to Atlantic Apparel, it was the dress division. It was a similar group to Atlantic Apparel, but it did dresses. What I learned quickly was after a couple of years, actually I was the youngest guy on the Board. When I walked in, it was actually kind of funny. I was in my twenties and they put me on the Board, I was the youngest person where everybody else was probably in their 40s or 50s. There was a 20 year gap on that. I was the youngest guy there. So I started going to the meetings and after years of being there I said to them, 'you guys are not going to be around unless you change,' and they all looked at me and laughed because you know they were older and said 'we can't change, we can't do this.' I said, 'I don't think you can continue to operate the way you operate.' And really within another five years or so, I would say by 1988 or so, I left the Association and formed my own contract with the union. Because what happened is I didn't have union sources anymore for work, and I really was working totally non-union sources. What I really ended up doing was instead of being just a straight contractor, I started doing package deals and different things, I would take on different work. It took me a number of years to learn a lot of this because I took contracting work from other contractors, there were a lot of mistakes I made in different things, but what I realized was the contracting business was going to end, and I went into the private labor business. Then I ended up getting a salesman, I guess in the 90s, and basically we started doing business with LandsEnd and Eastern Mountain Sportswear. Ellesse and I really started to build a business. The problem was there was a lot of risk for me since I had to finance everything myself. So I was really a small player for these guys but what I was able to do is that I was able to do fairly good quality for them, which took a long time to do. I mean it was really painstaking to learn how to do it because I had a plant that was really a popular price plant that made very typical goods, and I had to make high-quality goods. And it was kind of painful to learn that, and get the operators to do it, and we did do it successfully for a while. But then essentially when it got to be the later 90s, everything went offshore, and I couldn't stay in Pine Grove. And even though I had good relationships with the union and the help, and we were in Pine Grove a long time, I felt bad in a way. You know, but I tried to do what I could and we transitioned out, and I ended up closing the factory over there. I still moved to Allentown, I moved my operations to Allentown, but I had to go to Mexico. And I did contracting with the union plants in Allentown for about a year or two. That's how long it lasted. I was in Mexico trying that. Even Mexico was a hard thing because maquiladora kind of went down there, started up from scratch, had to send our equipment down there, hire people, and do different things. It was a pretty risky proposition actually. And it was risky because the laborers in Mexico couldn't make the quality goods that I needed right away. It was a big learning curve for them. And it took me months to really train them and it cost a lot of money to do that. But I managed to make that happen there and we got some good contracts from LandsEnd and Eastern Mountain Sports. The problem I had, the Mexicans were great people, and they were good to work with except their time management was a little bit slower than what we're used to here, so they were always late in getting things done. And what would happen is it created a problem for me as far as you know. I got certain penalties from the manufacturers and the cost was contracts over there but I still managed to make it work. And we were going good for a year, and management would go good, and then what happens they went to China, and we ended up losing the contract. And when I saw that happen I kind of closed. I decided I was just going to get out and we had closed. I decided to close and liquidate it out and get out of it and that was another painful process, too. But it was a lot of pressure on me because essentially I had the bank loans, and they were sizable bank loans. I had a lot of pressure from LandsEnd and the others. In fact, we needed to approach Walmart, and Walmart said to me "you have to be able to take a million-dollar order, that's the minimum order we'll do with you." But I was taking million dollar orders because that is what I had to take even with LandsEnd to do business, and even the other people, you couldn't stay in business taking small orders. I knew I had to go to 5 to 10 million dollars minimum. We were probably at 5 or 6 million dollars but what happened is because of the credit lines, they really put a big demand on me and stress and one of the suppliers, I found out later actually, wasn't happy because they said even though I paid the bank and everybody on time, they just felt like I was too small, and I ended up losing a contract from LandsEnd, which I found out later. But when they cut me out of the program-- because I had done this program for five years-- that's when I decided to close. I said this isn't right. So what happened, I liquidated out about a year later, and they ended up coming back to me and said "do you want to do this" because what happened is that they got screwed because they couldn't get the quality from the other supplier but at that point I said "I'm done" and I had decided to close and extricate myself out of that. And that was the end of the apparel business for me really by 2000, by 1999 actually, it was over for me. SC: I'd like to take you back to your family history, as far back as you know, but I have one question, which union? SK: ILGWU SC: Okay, that's what I thought, but yes, and also, there was another question I had with how far was Pineville from Reading? SK: Pine Grove from Reading is-- SC: Pine Grove, I'm sorry. SK: Pine Grove from Reading is approximately 45 miles SC: Because they had all the outlets by that time, all the stores and the business, weren't they? Reading was still producing when you were...? SK: Actually my uncle was still in business at that time. He was in manufacturing, but they had problems also with that, even the manufacturing. Really what happened is most like in Pine Grove, Fox-Knapp had been there for 100 years. They made outerwear, there weren't a lot of guys making outerwear. And outerwear went strictly to China, overseas, Korea. They just couldn't compete, and they ended up closing the plant over there. And the same happened, now you could do manufacturing the children's wear, and I guess the same thing happened to them. They had problems and they just closed. I was actually, like I said, I was able to stay because what I did is I did certain work in Mexico, and I did certain work in Pine Grove, and also I had a good connection with my sales guys at LandsEnd. We were able to produce for them on a very quick turn. We had a special system that you can turn things in a couple days, and we were able to really get the goods for them but the problem is I was paying $17 an hour. They could land the goods, the whole product complete, for 10 bucks. There was no way you can compete. It didn't matter how good and how fast, the only thing I could do was on reorders. We were good, and they really depended on us, and that's how we lasted in Pine Grove as long as we did for that. Because the plant, the plant people were generally pretty good, you know, they tried to get the quality right and get it done, and we were pretty responsive to getting things done. And it's not that we didn't have problems, we did have problems. Generally you know we were pretty consistent for them on that. SC: Could you talk about the names you know in your dad's family and your mother's family? Where they came from as far back as you know. SK: As far back as I know. Quick thing I never knew my grandparents really. I knew one grandparent ; my great-grandparents I never knew. They were long gone. My great grandparents-- actually from one side was from Poland I think. My parents . . . my father's was from Poland then. My mother's was from Kiev, Ukraine, over there. So they came to New York City, the typical Eastside. My mother's side had a store in the Lower East Side, on Orchard Street where else on that. And their whole family worked that store for a long time. Actually they worked that store until the 80s ; I think on that type of thing until the neighborhood really changed over there. My father lived with my mother's family when they got married, so they lived in New York City. And it was hard on my father because my father did not work in the, he tried working in the business with them, and decided this isn't for him. So he started looking for other businesses. He worked in the bank for a while, he had a decent position in the bank, but he decided that he wanted his own business. So then he started looking for a different business. He probably failed in a couple businesses before he ended up connecting with my uncle working in the business room. But they still lived in New York with the mother's family till 1950 when they moved, 1951 when they moved to Allentown. So that was there. Now my father actually was from Detroit, and I don't know about his family too much on that type of thing. What I do know is my grandmother at the time lived in New York City as well. I never knew my grandfather, I think he passed away when I was one year old and I wouldn't know. They lived in the city. My grandmother-- I don't know exactly which business she was in-- whatever it was she was, pretty tough, tough woman. She lived in the city and she would come visit us every two weeks or something. She died right before my bar mitzvah on that but I remember her being there. She would cook and stuff, she liked seeing the kids and stuff. Really I didn't know her that well. We used to see her at the holidays. Whenever we had Passover and stuff, we would always go into the city with our families. We would have big seders, families would be there on that. And my mother and her sister were very close. My aunt lived in Belle Harbor and she didn't live two blocks from the beach. So every summer we'd all go visit her, extended stay because when I was a baby she would bring me along, and she had a nanny for me, and we would stay right in my aunt's [home] and go to the beach all summer. We would stay just about most of the summer over there, so my sister and my aunt were very close. We got very close with that side of the family. Still close today, really I just know my cousins. SC: Do you know their names? SK: Well my mother's name was Veiner over there, her sister was also a Veiner, but became a Weiss, and Weiss was our cousins on the other side over there. Now her husband was an optometrist. They lived in Belle Harbor for 30/40 years, whatever, they were there a long time. And their kids grew up there ; we became very friendly with their kids. They had two boys, Alan and Fred. Fred became a doctor, moved to California. Alan stayed in the New York area, he became an accountant. Fred has passed away since then but I know the other families in California still keep in touch with them in California. Alan, we still keep in touch with him. He's still in the city but his kids, one's in Washington, the other's in Hawaii over there. So really that's pretty much, or we're pretty close there. I have other family members in New York, which we still occasionally see, a lot of cousins over there. One of the cousins was also in the garment business. He was like a rep selling different things for a long time. I think that was it, everyone else was not. The other part of the family stayed in the store actually. My father's side he had four other brothers, most of them stayed in the city as well. One of them was a banker actually at Sterling National Bank, and he became the president or vice president, he's high up that for a long time. His other brother had another dry goods store where he sold for a long time in New York, as well as another store, which he sold. And his other brother died younger. I don't know what he was in, he was doing something else but he died when I was much younger from that type of thing. SC: Do you know when your grandparents or their parents came to the United States? About what year? SK: I think it was in the 1900s era, it's got to be the late 1800s when they first came because my parents were both born in the United States. So they had to have come back then and I don't exactly know the details. I only saw, you know my parents never really talked about it too much. It was interesting. Actually, there were a lot of things I saw just from looking through the stuff that they left when they passed away. But they never talked too much about their families and that type of thing. SC: They embraced the United States. I think that's it, do you want to trade positions? GE: You know what, what we're going to do is we're just going to take a minute just so that we can make sure that we're doing okay technology wise. SK: So we actually started making goods for the Miss America contest. And we also made stuff for the US Open. We had [Ivan] Lendl made in our unit, we made it as one of the manufacturers, to see them play. Also, Chrisy Evert had some stuff that we had, we made stuff for her as well. GE: I'm going to let you tell me in a minute. So just pause, we are going to take a break. SK: You know, there's another guy that is really Jewish, but not Jewish in a way, that might still be working in the Valley. GE: Although it has happened to be mostly Jewish, it doesn't have to be. SK: There's a guy here that's still working actually, that does apparel stuff, he does embroidery, which is Lilly daVid. Now I don't know if David, cause I haven't talked to them in years, but I believe that they are still there because they do embroidery, they used to do embroidery for me all the time. GE: The other one that I was going to reach out to, the other one I know, that I just heard recently is Harris Malkovsky. And I don't know if he does any, from what I understand he is a middle man. Does he just buy stuff..? SK: I don't know what Harris does, but he was in the garment business GE: Right, and here's something, so I thought I would reach out to him SK: Yeah, no he would be good too. But Stu Ullman, the reason I say that, his father started Canoe Manufacturing, which was in Pine Grove way before we were. So he was there for a long time. But he really is definitely a person to speak to. I think he still is in the garment business-- David Lilly. He's down off Lehigh Street there, I'm trying to think. SC: Are they still there? SK: Yeah, they are still there, I forget the name of the street that they are on. No, when you take a left, right before the diner's right there. There's a diner there, I can't remember the name of the street. SC: So it is not in Emmaus? SK: No, it's right in Allentown. SC: So it's right in Allentown. SK: It's 18103, if you look it up on the Internet, it will be there cause he's, I'm positive he's still there. GE: Thank you. So a couple of follow-up questions, one,you'll share those stories about the Miss America and about the other. Couple of follow up questions. One, what was the name of your businesses? Initially you were manufacturers right? SK: Initially we were always contractors. We started out as a contractor. GE: You did, your father did? SK: My father did. And the name of the business was Summit Station Manufacturing. GE: That was your father with the T-shirts? Correct? SK: Well, no, my father and the T-shirts started out as Rick Knit. GE: R-I-C-K-K-N-I-T? And that was the t-shirts, correct? SK: That was the t-shirts and the golf shirts. That's what evolved into the golf shirts business GE: And then just tell me the evolution? SK: The evolution was my father and uncle were partners in that business and then they were in it since the 50s. I think in 1965 they split, they had a parting and then essentially my father left that business. My uncle still continues to run the business with his son, then his son ran it for a long time. I don't think they are around anymore.They ran it for a while. Then what happened was my father looked for another business. He was thinking about different businesses, but he ended up buying a contract plant in Pine Grove and called it Summit Station Manufacturing. GE: So he called it Summit Station Manufacturing but you were always a contractor? SK: He was only a contractor and that's how I started, it was strictly contracting. He strictly worked for union jobbers at the time in New York City. It was all union work. GE: Right. And you said there was one customer, who was that customer? SK: That customer was called Dorby Fox. GE: Ok, Dorby, D-O-R-- SK: D-O-R-B-Y Fox over there. And they were on Seventh Avenue ; there were right in the garment industry GE: Right, and you said it was dresses? SK: Yes, all dresses. GE: And what type--was it very casual dresses? SK: No, they made all types of dresses. They made fancier dresses. They didn't make wedding dresses or anything like that. But they really made more popular priced dresses, stuff at JCPenney, Sears ; those were the type of dresses they were selling. That was the type of market they were selling. GE: And was it typically old women as opposed to teens? SK: Women, mostly women, yes, mostly women. GE: And how long did your brother stay in the business? SK: One year. GE: Oh, so he was only in it-- and you were in it with your father? Or once your father left, he was done? SK: What happened was when my brother and I both started, my father was still there. Like I said, my manager left after two months. I took care of the. . . it's just, I'm more detailed than my brother. My brother is way more marketing/sales person. I just picked up on the details, so I really became the plant manager, running it because you had to know a lot of details. It was a heck of a lot of details to know. So, I lasted about a year. We both shared, you know, the production duties. I basically helped tell my brother. My brother and I both helped in planning and ran the sewing. After a year, my brother said that he couldn't take it anymore and had enough and left. At the time we were living in Lebanon, and he just left and went to try to do something else. GE: And then it sounds like you stayed with this until the end. SK: Yeah, I did. What really happened is I ended up running the plant, not happened, I did run the plant. I was responsible for all of the production and everything. I was the one that scheduled everything and the quality and stuff like that. My father helped a little bit, but my father really had some health issues, so after a year or two, he left and went in the winter to Florida. So really in six months I was basically all on my own. Now he would call, and if I had a problem, but I was really on my own. And really within a couple of years he ended up retiring. I would say within five years he was not coming to the plant. GE: Well do you want to share with us - so then it was really a matter, if I understand correctly, it was the matter of keeping your cost down, and that's how you tried the Mexico... SK: The beginning problem was actually getting work that you could actually make at a price. And I would go to different places and like I said, I ended up doing a lot of different things. I expanded out of dresses. I started doing blouses, sportswear. I went into running suits. I went into anything that we thought we could make. We actually made outerwear, too. For LandsEnd, we actually made outerwear, that's how I got started with LandsEnd. I made their 'squall' jacket. Then, most of the squall jackets were made in California, but I made it because I could make it quicker and delivered the small runs quicker so basically that's how I got started with them. It was painful, it was really painful because making outerwear from a dress plant, it was really an experience to do, but these are things I undertook. I would take on a lot of different things that a lot of people would never do because I just felt like if I could find my niche, and that's what I was looking for. And in that process I ended up working on making warm-up suits and different things. I started with Ellesse and that was like a semi package thing, and I had to do different things for them. We made different warm up suits and they actually made stuff for the US Open, so that's how I got to make stuff for the US Open. They would make it for a lot of these tennis pros, and would wear their label. And we made a lot of their suits and stuff like that, like I said, [Ivan] Lendl. Actually, I think Lendl was not Ellesse, they worked for Mizuno also, that was another contact that I made. And Mizuno was a Japanese firm, and the craziest thing about them is they wanted to see the plant so they came from Japan to see my plant. So I will be there, and then he said, well can you stay a little bit later at 8 o'clock at night and he said, can you stay a little bit later, 11 o'clock at night. They came to my plant. They roll up in this big limousine, literally, I'm so serious. It was really funny. So 11 o'clock at night they come and look at my plant, literally. I was there until 12 o'clock/12:30 at night with them. And the reason I remember Lilly daVid is Lilly daVid would do the embroidery. Some we would first self-cut, then I would take it down myself to Lilly daVid a lot of the time or ship it. And Lilly daVid and Ellesse, they were really friendly, they would be there and what they did with Mizuno even, I think Lilly daVid had a party one time and all the people who were doing the contracting or designing for them got together and they served sushi. We all got together one day and had this big raw tuna that they had for lunch, and we all got you know for the customer we were there. It was actually my first time that we had sushi, and that's how I got to like sushi. It was pretty good sushi. But it was this huge raw tuna sitting there, and we had it and it was an interesting experience. But we made different things for different people at that time and that's how I started getting into manufacturing because I wasn't total manufacturing, but I had to buy certain things or do certain things for them, and I got to learn about how to put the garments together on different things. And I got a lot of different experiences during those things and also during that time there was another time when we made dresses for the Miss America pageant and that was on TV. And that was kind of a thrill because you made these dresses, and we shipped them out, and you actually got to see them wear them on TV. And I think we got mentioned on TV. But that was some of the other things that we did. GE: And when you did that, that was for whom? SK: I don't even remember anymore, to tell you the truth. It was another one of those deals that was, I don't know, it might have been through Ellesse through somebody again that we. It wasn't Ellesse actually, the dresses were not Ellesse. It was somebody else, and I don't remember anymore who it was for, another contractor. It was kind of a contract, wasn't totally a contract. It was a guy who sent me a couple of packages. A lot of things we had to do for them and package it and put it together. GE: So during this time, if I understand correctly, these were where you were doing a lot of small runs? SK: Yeah, my business was [doing] a lot of small runs. That's how I really survived. Later on by 1995 when I hired an outside sales person and he said I have contacts I think we can do business. And the reason he knew me was because when we started he found out I did some smaller runs through some of these guys. And we connected, I went to New York, I used to go to New York a lot. And in New York, we started talking and his name was Jim Stabile and he was working for somebody else at the time and said you know, I bet we could get together and do something. And, you know, you kind of listen, and they never do it and then one day, he called me and said I think we could do something, you want to come in? And we got to talking, and I said okay if you think you can do this, I'll do this and that's what happened. We started getting sales and then I went out to LandsEnd. I would go out with him, and we would restructure some deals, and we actually got some contracts and that's how I got started. GE: And even with LandsEnd was it, were these concerns small runs? SK: For LandsEnd we started on a small basis but I was totally responsible for everything. In other words, they would tell me where to order the fabric but I had to buy the fabric. I had to buy the trims. I had to do everything. And really at the beginning I had a hard time making it. I can't figure out how they put these deals together because I was always behind the 8-ball. It was very very tight for me, and they gave me a little bit more money because it was smaller runs, but I always couldn't get a bigger run because my pricing was wrong. Then one year he got a big contract and they said to me if you get this contract they will introduce me to the fabric person. They said you're going to get special pricing if you get this contract. And they gave me the pricing for the fabric. And I saw the pricing for that fabric, and I saw the pricing that I had to pay for the fabric, and it was a huge difference. And they said 'well if you buy the zippers this is the source you should use.' Actually they didn't tell me the source, they said, 'we want you to buy 25,000,' we're talking about big buying. And I said, 'if I do 25,000,' and I went to the zipper guy, I said, 'what price would you give me?' And all of a sudden, the prices were different. I mean substantially different, like way different. And that's how I got into the contracting. I realized, wait a second, there is a different world here. And then I started calling suppliers, and if the supplier couldn't do the business, they said, well try this supplier. And you know when I talked to . . . with a lot of people when I told them 25,000 or I'm not going to spend $10,000 with you, or $20,000 or you know. The fabric guys were not hundreds of thousands of dollars, the zipper guys were thousands of dollars, could be $20,000/30,000. It was now big orders for them. And when they said LandsEnd, they knew who I was doing it with. They said that they'll work with me and do the business and that's how I got into the contracting business. But there was a big difference in the beginning. I was struggling, you know, how could these guys do these? How they did it was through the buy-in because they get special deals. Everything was a special deal and unless you knew and had the contacts to it, and Mizuno couldn't do this again. I started with the bank in Pine Grove and I got started with a small line of credit and all of a sudden I got big lines of credit. Today you couldn't do that, by the way. They would never grant me the credit. I had million dollar lines of credit. Nobody today would grant you that thing, not in this world today. They do not do that then. I could finance nothing but I lived check to check. In other words. I'd have people who would look at me and say, I had these enormous checks come in, and I'd have to go to the bank, cash it. Even with LandsEnd, I would spend, I had a special deal with them that said, I have to get paid right away. And they worked with me, I got to give them credit, they did work with me, but they were tough. You had a problem with your quality, they would hold, no matter what, whatever you had with them, they would not pay you. If your quality wasn't good, they didn't just not pay, they rejected the lot, and you had to fix it or do whatever it was and they'd say, 'we're sending back 'x' amount and wouldn't give you the money.' And that's why I said at the beginning with LandsEnd, you really had to know, cause if you'd ship for me it was really critical because I was doing so much quantity. I had to make sure the quality was right and get paid. I've got to tell you another thing, so there is a lot of risk, or else a lot of people would have done what I did. Like I'm surprised I did what I did. I did it, and then I realized that I reached a certain point with Mexico. I got a lot of disappointment a lot of times, and I said I can't keep doing this, it was just too much risk for me. And that's what got me out of it, really. Just one day I realized, I said, I had everything on the line and nobody else had everything on the line, and I just said, I'm not going to do this anymore. GE: And what year was that? SK: It was 1999 that I finally pulled the plug. I just said, and it was tough because really I had been doing this, people were depending on it. I really gave it a shot because I knew when I went into the private labor because I knew that contracting was not going to make it. And I knew I had to go between 5 and 10 million dollars to survive, and I was close to doing it but the problem was with LandsEnd. The old way was you go in, you make a handshake with the guy, and they would live up to what they did. At LandsEnd, that's not what happened. I had contracts by the way, of a big size, but they didn't even live up to their contracts. That's what, when that happened to me, I said wait a second. Actually, at the end I had to sue Eastern Sportswear to get my money, and I had to settle with them because the smaller you are, you know you're not going to court at the end, even though they owed me the money, I settled with them, and gave them a discount to get out of it. And after that happened, that's when I said, I'm done. Cause I just didn't have the financial wherewithal you would need to have substantial money to do what you're doing. And not only that I couldn't rely on them, the garments had really changed. Even LandsEnd started to change within their organization. It wasn't the same. That was a real close-knit organization there, you almost became a part of their family in a way. If they counted on you ; they would tell you certain things. Not that they wouldn't demand and hammer you on the price but if they gave you the order, they would cut you certain breaks. They would help you with the money if you said you needed the money on some things, and if you delivered for them, they would help you. But after that happened, I said I can't count on this anymore and stopped. But they were a good organization to work with, it did help me, but it changed, the whole world changed. Everything went overseas. GE: So at that point, you're about 50 I assume. And so I'm just kind of wondering if you wanted to share with us what you've done since, um you know, in terms of how did you personally have to adapt, right? SK: Well, when I left I actually liquidated the plant. I actually walked away. It cost me a lot of money, really a lot of money. Okay but, I almost thought that I would have to declare bankruptcy. Because of how I handled most of my customers, and I had good relationships with everybody, I was able to pay, repay everybody and that type of thing. When I say everybody, there's only one person I didn't really repay at the end, but they actually should have paid me. I left them my equipment so it ended up being fine, and that was down in Mexico--maquiladora. And I wasn't too happy with them, but they actually ended up ahead in the deal because they never would have gotten the business that I gave them. And they were very late, and they actually caused me a lot of money, and frankly, they should have cut me better breaks, but they didn't. But I don't harbor any resentment, it's what it is, it's the way we had the business of doing it. So when I left I took a year off because I was really kind of stressed, to say the least. And I ended up paying the bank completely back with the credit lines which I had to sign for personally. In fact all the credit lines, I paid all my suppliers, I paid all of the contractors and everybody got paid. And I was almost surprised because I didn't think that was going to happen, but I was able to do it. And I liquidated out on that. I had a manager, I said I would help him if he wanted to stay as a contractor. I didn't want to be in the garment business anymore. I said, I've had enough and I really had so I lent him a little bit of money. He was the biggest disappointment because he was with me a long time and at the end he kind of just reneged on me because I lent him a fair amount of money. I mean not like the garment business, but I did lend money to get started in that. I guess it didn't work out. I knew it would be tough but it's not the money that bothered me, it's just how it ended. He didn't come to me and say, 'hey Seth,' you know, he kind of just walked out, and you know just kind of left it that way. So that kind of left me negative a little bit. But like everything else I've moved on, and I, you know, it's just, I took a year off to kind of relax, did some different things, went on some vacations, just did different things. Then I started to get really antsy and wanted to look for another ; I always intended to look for another business. But it wasn't going to be in the garment business, I was kind of done with that. So I started looking around after that. My brother was in Valpak since 1991. So this was 2000 at this point, and I was looking. I put out flyers for different businesses and was looking around. I didn't want to go, like I said, in the garment business, I probably could have gotten business as a consultant going overseas and stuff, but I didn't want to do that. I didn't really want to travel like that. So I started thinking about other businesses. My brother said, 'hey I need some help here, why don't you just, you know what you needed, I need a manager.' Well I looked at his business and said, his business is strictly marketing and sales. I said, I'm not really big on sales, it's not me. You know, it's more him. And I said, I'll look at your salespeople inside, you know, to see if you have the sales person. So I looked at the salespeople, and I said to him, you don't have any. You're lucky if they are salespeople, let alone, you could have them as a manager. Then I sort of said, I wasn't going to do that. I said I'd help him for a while, if he wanted me to. But then he made me a proposal, and I guess I was kind of antsy. too. I looked at his figures and said, now I guess we could make this work. But I said, I could really do that inside for you, because his wife was doing the inside at the time, and didn't want to do it. And I said, I can help in the sales, but I'm not really going to be a prime salesperson. I said I can help really do the inside for you and do all the financial stuff and help. I can do everything, but I said don't count on me as the prime salesperson. I'll do what I have to do for you, you know I'll help in the sales. So that's how that got started on doing that because what we decided to. We would split the business in the sense that I let him own that business. I did not want to own the business, I said we can work as partners. I'll treat you like I own the business, but I'm not going to own anything so that's how we got started. And frankly that's how it is today, basically I run the business for him on that. I do a lot of the sales, in fact I do more sales than I want. But I do the sales, I help out with the sales people, I do all the financials, I do all the inside, all the technical stuff I do on that type of thing. So that's really what's happened, he still likes marketing and the sales, so he still does that. My brother never pushed himself that hard on that business. He kind of goes along, you know, we do it on that type of thing and we're still doing it on that. GE: So a couple of last questions before Sue gets back to you. What do you think about the community here? How has the community been affected, in terms of when it was 1950, when you were very young, there were many families that were in this business. SK: You're right, the community has definitely changed a lot. When I was growing up as a kid there were a lot of small businesses. In fact when I went to the synagogue, even in the Jewish community there were a lot of small businesses. In fact that was the majority of people, you had doctors and lawyers but the majority of givers, the people involved in the community, were all small business people. On that, in fact a lot of the givers to the [Jewish] Federation were from the garment business. I used to know, my father used to take me down to his plant, show me things. You had, um, I'm trying to think, some of the others there, not Bernstein, it was belts, you know, Braunstein. Braunstein, I knew Nate, I was at his plant and so, they were all involved in the garment business, you know. And there were a lot of big givers, a lot of big plants actually. We were a small plant in comparison to what they were. That started to change, some people retired, some people had to retire. You know if you get out, some people sold, so the businesses did not stick around. So really say by the 90s there, you started to see the change. By 2000 there weren't too many people left over there. In fact, the Atlantic Apparel when you talk about it in sportswear, I think they had like 500, close to 500 plants in the Lehigh Valley and surrounding area. I don't know who was left, there were very few left on that type of thing, and even the garment in the dress apparel, we had like 200 and some. There was nobody left. In fact, I think I was the last one left, but I wasn't a part of, I made my own contracts at that point. I wasn't even a part of it anymore. I think I was the last one left on that type of thing. So there was nobody left on that type of thing, all those businesses shrank or disappeared over there. So what happened over time was you had professionals come into Allentown. There's still some small business people, but even the small business community started to have problems. By 2008 when you had the recession, it was a turning point, I think you lost businesses there. And being in Valpak, I see a lot of small businesses. People in the Jewish community, they had small businesses, but they're not too many of them, and that disappeared. Now you have a lot of professionals that have taken that place but it's really changed the character of the community. GE: How? GIve us an example? In what ways do you think? SK: Well it's a combination of businesses changing, but I also think it has socially changed. When I grew up, the synagogue was a social side of religious thing. Religion was always a secondary thing, I mean it was always secondary. It played a part in our community, but it was really secondary. The temples were social ; people went to the temple to meet people and to get their friends. And my mother and everyone, she had a clique. My mother really knew a lot of people because she was involved in not only the temple but also in the auxiliary of the Jewish Community Center. She was involved in all these things. But the women didn't work at that time so you had them involved in all these community type things--Jewish affairs, Hadassah-- you name it, my mother was part of it. She was involved in doing that, and I grew up with that, and my father tagged along cause you know he had to because of my mother and that was part of it. But that started to wane because women had to go to the workforce and became more involved, and not that they weren't involved in the community, but less so. It became less and less. And then also what happened is as the older generation died off and moved away, the younger generation, not as many stayed here, because the opportunities weren't here. They didn't go into the family business because there wasn't a family business to go into. Now some didn't want it, and did different things. It, you know, changed, and the dynamic people moved away, and people came here, but I don't think now as many people move here as they used to 10 or 15 years ago. GE: Okay, good. My last question before I turn it over to Sue is why do you think that the Jews were really overrepresented in the apparel industry? From what we've seen and from what we've read, it's very many Jews and Italians. But why do you think that the Jews were overrepresented in that industry? SK: I would say that there are a couple factors. One is discrimination factor that you couldn't have, you couldn't get into other businesses fields that easy or that readily, you weren't accepted, so they started in that. A lot of these Jewish merchants started as peddlers and they built up. Now, maybe some of the owners, their parents might have been peddlers to start out with, and they got started because you could start a garment business relatively inexpensively. Not that you didn't need money, you could start it up relatively easily, you could never do that today, could never do it. That's what's hard about small businesses, in general it's hard to start a small business. Any small business requires a fair amount of capital. But in those days you could go to a guy who'd lend you a machine, they would lend you, you could buy things on credit, and they would let you get started. And you could make a living and that's how they started a lot of them. That type of thing, I think that's what happened a lot. That doesn't happen today out there, and for a Jewish guy, like I said, it was an opportunity. There weren't a lot of opportunities, and you could make decent money if you were good. Now a lot of guys didn't make it obviously, but there were a number of guys who did make it and became good. Now, not all, some of the Jewish guys or Jewish merchants that were here in the Valley, their fathers had started a business. So that's how the guys who were bigger generally got bigger, their parents had started before them. Like Mr. Mort Levy, his father started the business and then he built it and obviously expanded it. His father started it before he started and he grew up in it. I got to mention Mr. Levy because Mr. Levy helped me. He mentored me a little bit when my father passed away when I was 36. I was really on my own pretty much, on the younger part of business. My father really had no connection at all with what I did on that, but I used to talk to Mr. Levy, and he would help me in a lot of cases. There were a lot of Jewish people that had these factories and that's how they built up. GE: Okay, great, thank you. Okay, I'm just going to push this. SC: Okay, so I really only have two more questions, so one is what has made you feel most creative in life? SK: What has made me most creative in life? SC: Given you a sense of satisfaction or creativity or whatever other word you want to add? SK: It's a mix, it's a mix of things for me because essentially I would say my family has been one of my key satisfactions in my life, no matter what because they have always been there, and I always have enjoyed them, proud of them. But one of the things, the garment business was a big change for me because I was a shy little guy. I'm still quiet, but it made me do things I would never do. And that's what I found interesting about it. After all the years, you know, it changed whether I went to med school. In retrospect, I could have been a doctor probably, probably wouldn't have been a problem for me. But the garment business just changed my life by doing it over there, so being creative is really up to you as a person. Brandeis changed my life in a certain way. It stopped me from being a doctor, believe it or not, because I learned about art, and I never knew I had an interest in art. What happened was that at Brandeis, I had taken all the science courses. I had taken organic chemistry, I was ready to go to med school and had taken this art course. I think during my sophomore year, and I said I liked it. And I was talking with the professor, and at Brandeis, you could speak to professors pretty easily, and I was doing this artwork and this guy says, 'you should really take more art courses.' He said, 'I think you have the ability.' And I started taking some more in my junior year, and I really enjoyed them, and I said, you know what, I don't really want to go to medical school. I stopped taking science courses. I was one course away from my science degree at Brandeis, but then I stopped, and I said that I'm just going to take art courses. And the rest of my courses were all art courses. They were all drawing, art history, to me they were so simple after science, it was like a breeze for me, and I enjoyed them so much. And I learned a lot of different things at Brandeis cause essentially I got to meet the professors, and the courses were really different. Actually, one of the professors there, I'm trying to think of his name, I don't know, he contributed to the art museum in Allentown over there, it was one of my professors over there, and he used to invite us out for wine. It was just a completely different environment from the sciences. But even the science professors that I got to talk to over there. So that's what changed my mind about expanding, looking at things differently over there and the garment industry. You had to be more creative, maybe that's why I stuck with it longer because I realized I could do things with it, I was willing to try different things over that thing. SC: So it changed the way you looked at things, and more artistically. SK: I used certain things artistically. I still do a little bit of drawing and painting. I said to Kathy that really to be an artist you have to do it full-time. It's hard to do it part-time. I still do crazy things but I always liked the abstract art and I would do different things, I would do canvases and different things. I said I can never make a living doing that. If I had my choice going back, I probably would have been an artist. But I don't think I could have made a living doing it although when I go to the museums and look at some of the stuff of some of the artists who "made it." I have to laugh because I was doing some of that stuff that they were doing, and I was looking at it. That's chance, really it is chance. SC: And what do you value most in life? SK: I still value my family the most in life and really you know people say that the money and different things. Your money is not just life because it's not all about money, it's, there's a balance that you strike between. Yeah it's good to have means. Then you could support yourself and your family and send the kids to college, and you know, help them when they need help. But it's really about relationships with your people, the community you live in that you feel comfortable with, friends that you have over time. Yeah, even friends as you get older, they move away too and you know it's good having them but it's, you still rely on your family to some degree-- my wife, my kids, your grandkids, and that becomes really one of the most important factors. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Seth Katzman, May 25, 2016
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Seth Katzman shares fond memories growing up in Allentown during the 1950s and 1960s. While attending Brandeis University Seth decided that rather than pursue his original plan to attend medical school, he would instead take over his father’s apparel contracting business. His father wanted to retire anyway. Seth’s older brother joined him initially in the business. Not many years later, the traditional sewing contracting business in Pennsylvania was diminishing and Seth had to adapt to the changing environment. Seth stayed in the apparel business until 1999, much later than many other contracting businesses in Pennsylvania.
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LVTNT-29
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2016-05-25
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
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Kathy Katzman
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5.4 May 26, 2016 Kathy Katzman, May 26, 2016 LVTNT-19 18:49 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Kathy Katzman Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 KatzmanKathy_20160526 1.0:|17(2)|34(13)|53(5)|74(2)|91(5)|110(5)|129(5)|146(10)|167(11)|202(3)|233(4)|262(5)|289(4)|306(7)|331(8)|354(7)|383(16)|414(10)|431(13) 0 https://youtu.be/cs1hVW_e4fY YouTube video 0 Introduction—Kathy Katzman's Childhood & ; Education SC: Today is May 26, 2016, and so would you give me your full name, with your maiden name and where you have lived? 
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 ; KK: My name is Kathy Lackritz Katzman. I was born June 21, 1952, in New York City. I lived actually in Scarsdale until I was five, at which time my parents divorced, and then we moved to New York City, to Manhattan. And I lived there until fifth grade when we moved to Philadelphia and graduated from Friends Select School in Philadelphia and went to Boston University. I studied to be a teacher. When I first graduated, we got married. Seth and I got married right after I graduated college, and we moved to Schuylkill Haven-Pennsylvania. When you talk about culture shock, here is a girl who lived in New York, Philadelphia, and Boston and ended up in Schuylkill Haven, Pennsylvania, with I think was a population, maybe, 2000. 0 89 Early Childhood—Careers & ; Childrearing KK: I got a job teaching first grade in Tamaqua, which was about 40 minutes from Schuylkill Haven, and I taught for a year and really did not like it. I decided it wasn't for me. And at that point, we moved to Lebanon, Pennsylvania, and I got a job working at Sears in the women, the lingerie department. And we lived in Lebanon for a little over a year and then decided to move to Allentown. And I decided that I was going to go back to school. I got accepted to Lehigh for a Masters in reading, but soon after that discovered I was pregnant. So, I never went back to school, and I stayed home with my children. We have three sons who are now thirty-six, forty, and thirty-two. 0 189 Volunteering in the Allentown & ; Jewish Communities KK: [A]nd I did a lot of volunteer work. I was very involved with the PTO at the elementary school. I was very involved with different Jewish organizations, and I always seemed to be the treasurer for these organizations. So we belonged to Temple Beth El, and I was the treasurer for the sisterhood for many years. And I used to go into the Temple all the time, and about six and a half years ago, I was in there, and I discovered that their bookkeeper was becoming the Executive Director, and they were looking for a bookkeeper. I said, “Oh! I might be interested in that.” And they hired me! So I've been working as a bookkeeper at Temple Beth El for about six and a half years, perfect job-- Monday, Wednesday, Friday, takes me three minutes to get to work and it's a wonderful environment, it still gives me some time off. 0 261 Children & ; Grandchildren SC: So what are your children’s names, and what are they doing now?
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 ; KK: Ok. Adam is our oldest, he’s the one who’s 40, and he's an attorney, and he lives in Southeast Florida. His wife is also an attorney, and they have an almost 3-year-old son and a one-year-old daughter. So after three girls, three boys, I got to have a girl, well four boys, if you include the grandson. And our middle son, Jared, the one who had the web hosting business, has a Masters of Engineering and Computer Science. He lives in Denver, Colorado, and he's the director of technology at a private school there. He’s actually chaperoning a trip in China right now. And our youngest son, Glenn, lives in Oakland, California, and he’s a history teacher. He took a while to decide what he wanted to do. He graduated in political science and history, and first he wanted to teach, and then he decided he wanted to go to law school and he ended up with a full scholarship to law school in San Diego which is how we went to California, he went for one semester and said “I hate law school, I don't want to be a lawyer,” left law school got his Masters of Education, and he teaches at a charter school in Oakland. And neither Jared nor Glenn is married, unfortunately. 0 372 Family History KK: I believe that both sides of my family were from Russia originally. My mother's name was Vera Warsaw, her father, Jack Warsaw, was actually the founder of Phoenix Clothes here in Allentown. It was originally a silk mill, and he turned it into a factory. I believe he came here very, very, young. His name was originally Warshowsky, and he changed it to Warsaw. I really don't know anything about his parents at all. They were long gone by the time I was on the scene. Her mother was named Maddie Newmark, again I believe she was born in the United States, but I'm not really sure, and I don't really know about her parents either. My father was Morton Lackritz, and his parents were Joseph and Mildred, it was Mildred Becker originally. I think they were both born in the United States, I'm not positive, but the grandparents were from Russia, and that grandfather was also in the garment business, but he was in the garment business in New York. 0 532 Kathy's Grandfather—Jack Warsaw & ; Phoenix Clothes GE: Let’s see. So Jack Warsaw, he bought a silk mill here.
 ; 
 ; KK: Yeah, well, Phoenix Clothes was originally a silk mill, but I'm not sure exactly the transition.
 ; 
 ; GE: And do you know what they made?
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 ; KK: They made men's suits. They were very high quality, high-end men's suits.
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 ; GE: Do you know who he sold it to? 
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 ; KK: He didn't sell it.
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 ; SK: He did sell it. He sold it to Genesco.
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 ; KK: Oh, he did? Ok, you see, he knows more than I do. Yeah, he had a partner, Nat Berkowitz, was one of his partners, and there was another one I think, I don't remember any more. 0 740 Kathy's Inspirations and Values SC: So, what makes you feel most creative? 
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 ; KK: When you're saying creative, you mean fulfilled? 
 ; 
 ; SC: Yes, that would be another…
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 ; KK: Ok... I would say my relationships. Again, my family is my number one relationship, but my friends, too. My friends are very important to me. And loyalty, but again my family is definitely number one.
 ; 
 ; SC: And that’s what you value most?
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 ; KK: Yes.
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 ; SC: Thank you. So anything else either one of you thought of that you’d like to say? 0 796 How the Business Changed Seth KK: Seth was saying about it, being in the garment business changing him and I've known him since he was eighteen. We met when I was sixteen and he was eighteen. We’re about to have our forty-third anniversary, and as he said about being quiet, he was a very quiet, introverted young man. Once he went into business you can’t be that way, and definitely he changed his personality. 0 824 Meeting Seth/Seth's Education SC: Did you meet in Allentown?
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 ; KK: No, I was actually on a teen tour across the United States. Seth had just graduated high school and he was driving across the country with a friend of his, whose girlfriend was on my teen tour. And that was how we met. 
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 ; GE: Is that what inspired one of you or both of you to go to school in Boston? 
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 ; KK: Me. He was at Brandeis, and that's why I went to Boston. 0 MovingImage Kathy Katzman talks about living in New York, Philadelphia and Boston before she married Seth. Their first home together was in Schuylkill-Haven Pennsylvania, a community of 2,000. They then moved to Lebanon, Pennsylvania, still very small, and stayed there for a year before moving to Allentown. Coincidently, Kathy was familiar with Allentown because her grandfather was a founder of Phoenix Clothes located in the Lehigh Valley, which made high-end men’s suits. Kathy was a stay-at-home mom, active in the Jewish organizations and at the local elementary school.
 ; Interview with Kathy Katzman, May 26, 2016 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is May 26, 2016, and so would you give me your full name, with your maiden name and where you have lived? KATHY KATZMAN: My name is Kathy Lackritz Katzman. I was born June 21, 1952, in New York City. I lived actually in Scarsdale until I was five, at which time my parents divorced, and then we moved to New York City, to Manhattan. And I lived there until fifth grade when we moved to Philadelphia and graduated from Friends Select School in Philadelphia and went to Boston University. I studied to be a teacher. When I first graduated, we got married. Seth and I got married right after I graduated college, and we moved to Schuylkill Haven-Pennsylvania. When you talk about culture shock, here is a girl who lived in New York, Philadelphia, and Boston and ended up in Schuylkill Haven, Pennsylvania, with I think was a population, maybe, 2000. I got a job teaching first grade in Tamaqua, which was about 40 minutes from Schuylkill Haven, and I taught for a year and really did not like it. I decided it wasn't for me. And at that point, we moved to Lebanon, Pennsylvania, and I got a job working at Sears in the women, the lingerie department. And we lived in Lebanon for a little over a year and then decided to move to Allentown. And I decided that I was going to go back to school. I got accepted to Lehigh for a Masters in reading, but soon after that discovered I was pregnant. So, I never went back to school, and I stayed home with my children. We have three sons who are now thirty-six, forty, and thirty-two. And I worked, I taught in a nursery school for a year or two when my youngest son was in nursery school. And then I really did not have a paying job for a number of years until our middle son started his own web hosting business when he was fifteen, and I became his bookkeeper,I guess you would say. And I worked from home for quite a while, and I did a lot of volunteer work. I was very involved with the PTO at the elementary school. I was very involved with different Jewish organizations, and I always seemed to be the treasurer for these organizations. So we belonged to Temple Beth El, and I was the treasurer for the sisterhood for many years. And I used to go into the Temple all the time, and about six and a half years ago, I was in there, and I discovered that their bookkeeper was becoming the Executive Director, and they were looking for a bookkeeper. I said, "Oh! I might be interested in that." And they hired me! So I've been working as a bookkeeper at Temple Beth El for about six and a half years, perfect job-- Monday, Wednesday, Friday, takes me three minutes to get to work and it's a wonderful environment, it still gives me some time off. SC: So what are your children's names, and what are they doing now? KK: Ok. Adam is our oldest, he's the one who's 40, and he's an attorney, and he lives in Southeast Florida. His wife is also an attorney, and they have an almost 3-year-old son and a one-year-old daughter. So after three girls, three boys, I got to have a girl, well four boys, if you include the grandson. And our middle son, Jared, the one who had the web hosting business, has a Masters of Engineering and Computer Science. He lives in Denver, Colorado, and he's the director of technology at a private school there. He's actually chaperoning a trip in China right now. And our youngest son, Glenn, lives in Oakland, California, and he's a history teacher. He took a while to decide what he wanted to do. He graduated in political science and history, and first he wanted to teach, and then he decided he wanted to go to law school and he ended up with a full scholarship to law school in San Diego which is how we went to California, he went for one semester and said "I hate law school, I don't want to be a lawyer," left law school got his Masters of Education, and he teaches at a charter school in Oakland. And neither Jared nor Glenn is married, unfortunately. SC: So will you go back in your family and tell the names and where they're from, and what you know about your family as far back as anyone has told you? KK: I believe that both sides of my family were from Russia originally. My mother's name was Vera Warsaw, her father, Jack Warsaw, was actually the founder of Phoenix Clothes here in Allentown. It was originally a silk mill, and he turned it into a factory. I believe he came here very, very, young. His name was originally Warshowsky, and he changed it to Warsaw. I really don't know anything about his parents at all. They were long gone by the time I was on the scene. Her mother was named Maddie Newmark, again I believe she was born in the United States, but I'm not really sure, and I don't really know about her parents either. My father was Morton Lackritz, and his parents were Joseph and Mildred, it was Mildred Becker originally. I think they were both born in the United States, I'm not positive, but the grandparents were from Russia, and that grandfather was also in the garment business, but he was in the garment business in New York. He invested very heavily in some sort of new zipper. Zippers were very new in the world back then. We're probably talking about, I'd say the late thirties, maybe, and ended up going bankrupt, with this big investment. And my father had worked with him briefly, and I'm not sure what my grandfather ended up doing after that, but my father went out of the garment business altogether and became an electronics salesman. That's what he did for his whole life. And unfortunately, I don't know very much about the family history at all further back. SC: So I have a question, I'll ask you the same questions, but maybe, do you have some business questions or questions about the--? GAIL EISENBERG: So one quick thing, Lackritz, can you just spell that? KK: L-A-C-K-R-I-T-Z. GE: Let's see. So Jack Warsaw, he bought a silk mill here. KK: Yeah, well, Phoenix Clothes was originally a silk mill, but I'm not sure exactly the transition. GE: And do you know what they made? KK: They made men's suits. They were very high quality, high-end men's suits. GE: Do you know who he sold it to? KK: He didn't sell it. SETH KATZMAN: He did sell it. He sold it to Genesco. KK: Oh, he did? Ok, you see, he knows more than I do. Yeah, he had a partner, Nat Berkowitz, was one of his partners, and there was another one I think, I don't remember any more. GE: The only one that I heard of who made suits is Billera? KK: They made slacks ; in fact, they had their factory in my grandfather's building. GE: Oh, isn't that interesting! SK: Yeah, they knew each other pretty well. GE: Ok. We're hoping somebody here actually has a connection with Billera, that hopefully when somebody comes into town, we're going to get an opportunity to interview them. KK: I'm right that they made slacks, right? SK: Yeah. They might have made other things, but they were known for their slacks. GE: How about Mort Levy? What did he make? SK: Mort Levy had done different things. I'm trying to think what he did. I thought he was in sportswear, but I'm not sure exactly, to tell you the truth. Pants. Yeah, pants. That's what he made. KK: Roberta Penn might know, that was her uncle. SK: But it was pants, that's definitely what he did, I remember. I was at his factory. GE: So all you know is that your grandfather did Phoenix Clothes, do you know what years he was in business? KK: I think he started it in the twenties. SK: Her grandfather started the business but didn't start in that business, he made vests and different things. I don't know the name of his businesses, but he was in business in another business making vests. He got together with-- KK: Nat Berkowitz. Nat Berkowitz. I don't remember. SK: There was three men, I don't remember the names, they got together, he was really the financial one. The three of them got together. I think it was in 1950. GE: And they stayed in business until when? SK: They sold it to Genesco, which was a big company that bought that company. KK: In the early eighties, maybe? Because my grandfather still had his office there for years. SK: He had a big plant. He was really big. GE: So when you came here, your grandfather was still here. KK: Oh yeah. GE: Wow. KK: It was sort of funny because as a child I would come here occasionally because of my grandfather. My grandfather actually did not live here, though. My grandmother refused to leave New York and move to Allentown, so he would live here during the week and go back to New York on weekends. GE: We have certainly spoken with many who, at least for a temporary time, for six months or a year-- KK: She never moved here. Ever. And then she would go to Florida for the winters and he would go down to Florida. GE: Thank you. SC: So, what makes you feel most creative? KK: When you're saying creative, you mean fulfilled? SC: Yes, that would be another-- KK: Ok... I would say my relationships. Again, my family is my number one relationship, but my friends, too. My friends are very important to me. And loyalty, but again my family is definitely number one. SC: And that's what you value most? KK: Yes. SC: Thank you. So anything else either one of you thought of that you'd like to say? KK: Seth was saying about it, being in the garment business changing him and I've known him since he was eighteen. We met when I was sixteen and he was eighteen. We're about to have our forty-third anniversary, and as he said about being quiet, he was a very quiet, introverted young man. Once he went into business you can't be that way, and definitely he changed his personality. SC: Did you meet in Allentown? KK: No, I was actually on a teen tour across the United States. Seth had just graduated high school and he was driving across the country with a friend of his, whose girlfriend was on my teen tour. And that was how we met. GE: Is that what inspired one of you or both of you to go to school in Boston? KK: Me. He was at Brandeis, and that's why I went to Boston. SC: But what happened to you, that's why you go to a liberal arts college? SK: Actually what really happened, I applied to a number of schools. Actually my brother and sister both went to Boston University. My brother actually graduated, my sister didn't because she had some health issues. But I figured I'd probably go to BU or something. But what happened, my brother, when I went up to see him, he said: "let's go see the colleges." So we went around, and he said: "let's see Brandeis!" And I said, "Wow, this is a nice school! I'll just apply here!" I had no idea about Brandeis. I really didn't. I had no clue about Brandeis. It looked like a nice school, so I just applied. What happened is I never went back. They wanted to have an interview, so I said: "Ok, we'll have an interview." And the interview was in Philly, so my mother drove me to Philadelphia. I had the interview, and I was sick as a dog that day. I remember, I had a great interview with the guy, so he was asking what I was doing. So one summer, it was my junior year, the summer of my junior year, my friend and I decided I wasn't going back to camp. I said, we're gonna do a project so we decided we were gonna build a one-link particle accelerator. It's like an atom smasher. It's one of these crazy things you see in Scientific America. We're looking at it, and we said, "we can do this!" We're looking at it, and I said, "Oh, we'll copy this," so we go to [unintelligible], they lend us some equipment. This is something that would never happen today. So we ended up pulling this stuff off, you know we made this thing work. You know, it was in my basement. KK: For years, it was in your basement. SK: Yeah! So we spent all summer doing this, we made this thing work, so at the interview, I don't know if the guy knew any science or not, but I was explaining what we did this summer, and the guy was like fascinated! We must have been in there at least an hour or more talking about this particle accelerator. I didn't think anything about it, you know, I knew Brandeis was hard to get into, so I didn't expect to get into Brandeis anyways. And I had good grades ; I graduated probably in the top 10% of my high school class. I never killed myself in high school ; in fact, I was bored in high school. I found it very boring. It was a public school. Like I used to go down and complain, you know because they stuck me in these classes, I said, "isn't there a better class? What happened?" I guess they had filled up the APs, and I couldn't get in, so I was stuck in the regular classes. I didn't even have to show up, and I could get an A. So I did lots of extracurricular things ; I always did different things. So I applied to schools. I knew I was going to get into Boston University. University of Pittsburgh I applied to as a safety school. Tufts was another one I thought I'd try to get in to. KK: And Columbia, you said, right? SK: Columbia did me a favor, because I went to Columbia, had a horrible interview with them. I didn't like the school, but I still went. So it's just as well I didn't get in. And then, for whatever reason, I thought I'd go to BU, and BU accepted me. And I think Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh, the guy said "Why do you want to come here?" I looked at him and said [unintelligible]. He just said to me, "You're not going here." He looked at my parents, and after the interview, he said, "You're not going here." He said to me, "You're in. Why are you gonna go here?" KK: And the funny thing is when we took Jared to look at schools, and he wanted computer science, and we took him to Brandeis and met with the head of the computer science department, and he said to Jared you don't want to come here, we're not gonna have what you want and what you need. GE: But that's wonderful that the school was that frank. SK: But Brandeis is an interesting school because it has a lot of high powered people there, it's very liberal artsy, it was Boston, it was 1968. KK: Susan Sachs was in his classroom, from the Weather Underground. SK: I knew Susan Sachs. I sat next to her in Spanish class. GE: That was your father's mother, was Maddie--what was her last name? Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Kathy Katzman, May 26, 2016
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Kathy Katzman talks about living in New York, Philadelphia and Boston before she married Seth. Their first home together was in Schuylkill-Haven Pennsylvania, a community of 2,000. They then moved to Lebanon, Pennsylvania, still very small, and stayed there for a year before moving to Allentown. Coincidently, Kathy was familiar with Allentown because her grandfather was a founder of Phoenix Clothes located in the Lehigh Valley, which made high-end men’s suits. Kathy was a stay-at-home mom, active in the Jewish organizations and at the local elementary school.
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2016-05-26
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
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Maxine Klein
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5.4 April 8th, 2016 Maxine Klein, April 8th, 2016 LVTNT-06 10:16 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Maxine Klein Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 KleinMaxine_20160408_revised.mp4 1.0:|23(4)|46(10)|65(17)|86(9)|113(6)|134(11)|161(10)|188(3)|221(17)|240(13)|245(9) 0 https://youtu.be/I6G8bjDJq9c YouTube video 0 Introduction—Maxine Klein: Women's Health Nurse Practitioner SCB: Today is April 8th, 2016, an interview — a second interview — with Maxine Klein. Maxine, would you talk about your career as a nurse? 
 ; 
 ; MK: Yes, thank you. I went to school as a nurse, excuse me, when I was thirty-eight. And why I did that essentially two — well many reasons, but two of the main reasons — one of them, I was involved in some community projects, the- at the Center Hakol, the development of the newspaper, Hakol. And my partner and I decided we wanted to be paid for this job because it was enormous, and they told us, no, they weren't going to, so we both decided we would go and become professionals of some sort or another. I always felt that I wanted to be more than Mrs. So and So ; growing up at the time that I did, the first half of my life, we were programmed into the old ways of becoming secretaries or teachers or nurses and- but mainly wives and mothers. And then the Women's Movement happened in the middle of that, and all of a sudden women were supposed to be more than that. At first I resisted this, but then I decided that I thought I would like to be more than that, too, and have my own identity. 0 121 First Job at Good Shepherd Rehabilitation Center MK: So I finished in three years and- and then I- my first job was at Good Shepherd Rehabilitation Center. I never really wanted to work in a hospital, I always felt that I wanted to use the nursing authenticity, shall we say, as a segue into something else. It was a sort of a quick and legitimate way to get that authenticity. And I was always interested in education, but I didn't want to be a school teacher either. So my first job was at Good Shepherd Rehab, which is a lot of patient teaching as well as patient care. That was a- a- a what was that? Seven to three job, which was very difficult for me because I still had my family. 0 172 Second Job Following Loss of Husband—Working as an Oncology Nurse Specialist MK: A month after I started there, I also passed my- my boards, and my husband died suddenly on August 8th. I had started there in the beginning of July and he died on August 8th. So I left that day and I did not return there. And I took about six months to kind of reorganize myself because he was involved in several businesses, et cetera, and all that had to be straightened out, and my children's lives were in the middle of this and that as well. And I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, but I didn't want to work in a hospital, I didn't want to work full time because I had these other- Anyway, close friend of mine arranged for me to interview with one of the local oncologists who was looking for a nurse to come in and give his patients what he couldn't do — education, time, contact with family, help to understand what the patient needed about their treatment, about the disease, etc. So I went and interviewed and he hired me. It was David Prager who was a wonderful oncologist and is now deceased. And I worked for him and his partners for seven years as an oncologist nurse. I became an oncology nurse, I became an oncology specialist and I helped design patient education as well as some courses for visiting nurses to come through to learn how to do some- certain techniques. And it was very exciting, for me, it was very, very exciting. And very helpful, I was helping people in a time when they needed it and if it was end of life and they needed help and had to have a good death as well. So it was- It was- And I think it was a sort of a healing process for me, too. Having lost my husband, the whole process was somehow therapeutic as well as it turned out. 0 301 Twelve Years Working as a Women's Health Nurse Practitioner for Planned Parenthood MK: I began to realize that I was losing a sense of perspective. My friends were telling me, oh, they had a bad cold or their shoulder was hurting and this and that, you know, “I can't do it.” And I'm thinking, “Are you kidding? What are you telling me this for? I’m dealing with people making life and death decisions!” And I started to lose touch with the main real world. And I thought, you know, either I'm getting healed or something, something needs to change, I'm going off on the wrong end here. So I- I left that job. I worked for a little while as head of the hospice volunteers. I didn't like that much. Then I volunteered at Planned Parenthood. My daughters all went to Planned Parenthood and I volunteered doing all sorts of things there for about a year. And then the- the manager at the Allentown clinic said that the- the clinician was going to leave Planned Parenthood, would I be interested in becoming a nurse practitioner? And they would pay for me to go. There was a special program with Planned Parenthood and the University of Pennsylvania and the United States government to try to get clinicians into places where- that serve the underserved. So it was a speed up kind of thing. And I could become a women's health nurse practitioner in one one- one year’s time, which would give me a certificate, not a Master's Degree, and I didn't need anything other than my Associate’s Degree and my RN license. And so I thought, okay — nothing else is happening right now. A year will go by and either I will be a nurse practitioner or I won't. So I said, yes, I'll do it. 0 480 Maxine Klein's Creative Inspirations SC: What has made you feel the most creative in life? I know we asked you this before, but sometimes it changes. 
 ; 
 ; MK: I don't remember you asking me that. 
 ; 
 ; SC: Maybe we- 
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 ; GE: No, we did.
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 ; MK: But I don't know what I said. 
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 ; GE: I don't remember. 
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 ; SC: And that doesn't matter. 
 ; 
 ; MK: Oh, I'm sorry. 
 ; 
 ; GE: That’s okay, just leave it.
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 ; MK: Most creative? I think, I think interacting with other people, helping people to see the world the way they need to see it sometimes takes a lot of energy and creativity on my part. 0 592 Maxine's Values SC: And what do you value in life? 
 ; 
 ; MK: Well, probably the love of my family and my children and all the people that I, I know and love — that's definitely the most valuable to me. 0 MovingImage Maxine, the younger sister, talks about being influenced by the women’s movement in the 1970s. From that, Maxine returned to school, became a registered nurse and, later, a nurse practitioner. Maxine enjoyed a fulfilling career working with a local oncologist’s office and later at Planned Parenthood.
 ; Interview with Maxine Klein, April 8th, 2016 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is April 8th, 2016, an interview -- a second interview -- with Maxine Klein. Maxine, would you talk about your career as a nurse? MAXINE KLEIN: Yes, thank you. I went to school as a nurse, excuse me, when I was thirty-eight. And why I did that essentially two -- well many reasons, but two of the main reasons -- one of them, I was involved in some community projects, the- at the Center Hakol, the development of the newspaper, Hakol. And my partner and I decided we wanted to be paid for this job because it was enormous, and they told us, no, they weren't going to, so we both decided we would go and become professionals of some sort or another. I always felt that I wanted to be more than Mrs. So and So ; growing up at the time that I did, the first half of my life, we were programmed into the old ways of becoming secretaries or teachers or nurses and- but mainly wives and mothers. And then the Women's Movement happened in the middle of that, and all of a sudden women were supposed to be more than that. At first I resisted this, but then I decided that I thought I would like to be more than that, too, and have my own identity. So I decided I would go to the community college because I still had three children that I was responsible for and my husband. And I- it was a two year program to become an RN, I did it in three years so that I could organize my life. That- I was at school from eight to four, whether I had class or not ; I did all my work at school and then when I came home at four, I was with my family for the rest of the evening and I didn't have to be distracted with any other work. And this seemed to work quite well. So I finished in three years and- and then I- my first job was at Good Shepherd Rehabilitation Center. I never really wanted to work in a hospital, I always felt that I wanted to use the nursing authenticity, shall we say, as a segue into something else. It was a sort of a quick and legitimate way to get that authenticity. And I was always interested in education, but I didn't want to be a school teacher either. So my first job was at Good Shepherd Rehab, which is a lot of patient teaching as well as patient care. That was a- a- a what was that? Seven to three job, which was very difficult for me because I still had my family. A month after I started there, I also passed my- my boards, and my husband died suddenly on August 8th. I had started there in the beginning of July and he died on August 8th. So I left that day and I did not return there. And I took about six months to kind of reorganize myself because he was involved in several businesses, et cetera, and all that had to be straightened out, and my children's lives were in the middle of this and that as well. And I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, but I didn't want to work in a hospital, I didn't want to work full time because I had these other- Anyway, close friend of mine arranged for me to interview with one of the local oncologists who was looking for a nurse to come in and give his patients what he couldn't do -- education, time, contact with family, help to understand what the patient needed about their treatment, about the disease, etc. So I went and interviewed and he hired me. It was David Prager who was a wonderful oncologist and is now deceased. And I worked for him and his partners for seven years as an oncologist nurse. I became an oncology nurse, I became an oncology specialist and I helped design patient education as well as some courses for visiting nurses to come through to learn how to do some- certain techniques. And it was very exciting, for me, it was very, very exciting. And very helpful, I was helping people in a time when they needed it and if it was end of life and they needed help and had to have a good death as well. So it was- It was- And I think it was a sort of a healing process for me, too. Having lost my husband, the whole process was somehow therapeutic as well as it turned out. However, at the end of that time, I did seven years, I began to realize- am I going on too long? GAIL EISENBERG: No. SC: No, keep going, please. MK: Oh okay. I began to realize that I was losing a sense of perspective. My friends were telling me, oh, they had a bad cold or their shoulder was hurting and this and that, you know, "I can't do it." And I'm thinking, "Are you kidding? What are you telling me this for? I'm dealing with people making life and death decisions!" And I started to lose touch with the main real world. And I thought, you know, either I'm getting healed or something, something needs to change, I'm going off on the wrong end here. So I- I left that job. I worked for a little while as head of the hospice volunteers. I didn't like that much. Then I volunteered at Planned Parenthood. My daughters all went to Planned Parenthood and I volunteered doing all sorts of things there for about a year. And then the- the manager at the Allentown clinic said that the- the clinician was going to leave Planned Parenthood, would I be interested in becoming a nurse practitioner? And they would pay for me to go. There was a special program with Planned Parenthood and the University of Pennsylvania and the United States government to try to get clinicians into places where- that serve the underserved. So it was a speed up kind of thing. And I could become a women's health nurse practitioner in one one- one year's time, which would give me a certificate, not a Master's Degree, and I didn't need anything other than my Associate's Degree and my RN license. And so I thought, okay -- nothing else is happening right now. A year will go by and either I will be a nurse practitioner or I won't. So I said, yes, I'll do it. I had to move to Philadelphia for four months, which I did, and then did the rest of my internship at- in Easton at the Easton Clinic, and I became a women's health nurse practitioner. And then I worked for 12 years. At the time that I did it, I thought, how long am I really going to work? You know? I mean, well, if I work two years, it'll make it worthwhile. But I worked twelve. And it was most exciting and most gratifying and it kept me young, kept me in touch with all different ages of people and what was happening, and I could do a lot of teaching in a really short amount of time to a patient population that really, really wanted that teaching. So it was very gratifying and I'm glad I did it. And then when I was sixty-five, I decided I think I'm getting tired and I had some health issues and I thought, I'm going to retire before they kick me out. So that's what I did. I retired from Planned Parenthood. So now I'm looking for my next career, shall we say. Is that enough? GE: Yes. SC: Well, may I ask you--? MK: Sure. SC: What has made you feel the most creative in life? I know we asked you this before, but sometimes it changes. MK: I don't remember you asking me that. SC: Maybe we- GE: No, we did. MK: But I don't know what I said. GE: I don't remember. SC: And that doesn't matter. MK: Oh, I'm sorry. GE: That's okay, just leave it. MK: Most creative? I think, I think interacting with other people, helping people to see the world the way they need to see it sometimes takes a lot of energy and creativity on my part. GE: Can I ask you- Can you, can we just mute that? MK: Yes, I can turn it off. GE: Yeah, let's turn that off and just say the- 'cause what you said is beautiful, perfect, I just don't want to have that-No, no, no. I'll get it for you. [cross chatter irrelevant to interview] SC: So, what has made you feel the most creative in life? MK: I was- I think working with other people, helping people to solve their problems, helping them to understand what they need to understand. It takes a lot, for me. it takes a lot of creativity and getting outside of myself and trying to be in somebody else's skin to- to help them. I think I feel the most alive when I'm doing that. I don't know if that's the same as being creative, but that definitely makes me feel most alive and most energized. SC: And what do you value in life? MK: Well, probably the love of my family and my children and all the people that I, I know and love -- that's definitely the most valuable to me. SC: Do either of you have any questions? Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). The public can access and share the interview for educational, research, and other noncommercial purposes as long as they identify the original source. 0 /render.php?cachefile=
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Maxine Klein, April 8th, 2016
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Maxine, the younger sister, talks about being influenced by the women’s movement in the 1970s. From that, Maxine returned to school, became a registered nurse and, later, a nurse practitioner. Maxine enjoyed a fulfilling career working with a local oncologist’s office and later at Planned Parenthood.
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2016-04-08
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Lehigh Valley Textile and Needle Trades Oral History Project
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Susan Clemens-Bruder
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Marty Krasnov
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5.4 June 22, 2016 Marty Krasnov, June 22, 2016 LVTNT-27 1:59:22 LVTNT Lehigh Valley Textile and Needlework Trades Muhlenberg College: Trexler Library Oral History Repository trexlerlibrarymuhlenberg Marty Krasnov Susan Clemens-Bruder Gail Eisenberg video/mp4 KrasnovMarty_20160622 1.0:|15(5)|30(7)|45(7)|60(2)|73(15)|90(9)|105(13)|122(2)|135(10)|158(6)|179(12)|196(5)|211(7)|226(8)|243(10)|256(4)|271(4)|286(4)|303(5)|320(7)|335(7)|350(11)|365(14)|382(11)|401(5)|416(15)|435(10)|452(2)|469(10)|486(3)|503(10)|520(8)|533(5)|548(11)|563(5)|578(10)|591(9)|606(14)|621(4)|632(10)|645(10)|660(15)|675(6)|692(2)|707(9)|726(16)|743(8)|760(13)|779(6)|796(12)|813(10)|828(2)|847(5)|862(12)|875(7)|892(9)|911(14)|930(12)|947(6)|964(14)|983(9)|998(16)|1019(5)|1036(7)|1055(6)|1072(7)|1095(9)|1112(13)|1129(14)|1144(7)|1163(11)|1182(11)|1201(4)|1216(6)|1233(4)|1250(2)|1265(2)|1284(5)|1299(10)|1318(6)|1335(5)|1354(8)|1369(13)|1384(9)|1401(4)|1428(8)|1447(7)|1462(4)|1479(11)|1500(3)|1519(3)|1536(2)|1551(8)|1572(3)|1589(15)|1608(9)|1625(8)|1646(9)|1665(8)|1684(11)|1705(4)|1722(9)|1745(10)|1762(6)|1779(3)|1794(6)|1809(14)|1826(12)|1843(8)|1862(16)|1881(6)|1896(5)|1911(10)|1926(9)|1945(5)|1968(7)|1987(15)|2002(7)|2013(13)|2020(6) 0 https://youtu.be/y-5xsqEILEI YouTube video 0 Family History SC: Today is June 22, 2016. First I’d like you to put yourself into some kind of context. What’s your full name, when were you born and where were you born? 
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 ; MK: I’m Marty Krasnov, I was born in 1938 in the Jewish Hospital of Philadelphia.
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 ; SC: Over your life where have you lived? Sort of to see an arc of where you’ve lived from Philadelphia perhaps to where you are now?
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 ; MK: I believe it was 1940 when the family moved to Allentown, and I basically have lived here ever since. 0 1053 Women Working Culture SC: Do you know where any other people worked in this country, whether the women worked because they were poor?
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 ; MK: My mother, apparently, always had to work, and she went to night school so I presume, but she didn’t talk much about it. I think she worked in a department store. My father and his older brother Joseph and, I presume, my grandfather because there's a safe . . . but we had one time, Isadore Krasnov & ; Sons. My grandfather was Isadore. I don’t know why they had this huge safe because they didn’t have too much at the time. They started peddling on the street and started making blouses and dresses in their own home, and I guess the business kind of grew. 0 1291 Education SC: Would you now talk about where you have gone to school and where you’ve worked from the time you were a little kid, all the way to when you started working? 
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 ; MK: My recollection of growing up was in what would today be referred to as the Jewish ghetto, which was somewhere between South Fulton or S. 15th St. to South 17th St. I grew up on 16th St. and, even today, some of the people you’ve interviewed grew up on that street. And I know almost every house when I drive by, who lived here, who lived there and what have you. 0 2021 More Family History GE: Can you give me the names of your parents and grandparents?
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 ; MK: Sure. I’m gonna take these pictures out so you can look at them. I knew I was going to show these pictures to someone. I have them, and we have many more and you’ve seen pictures very similar to these. We’ll start with my family, as children, my older sister, as you can tell, my sister, Roz, that is me, my older sister, Roz. She is living in New Jersey and she is seven years older than I, and my sister, Mitsi Goldenberg, living in Florida. Parents passed away, my father was 85. He died on my birthday in 1980 and my mother passed away in 1995 and she was 88.
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 ; GE: What were their names?
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 ; MK: Sam, Samuel and Fanny, with a Y.
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 ; GE: So, it’s Samuel Krasnov, and his father was Isidore?
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 ; MK: Isidore, and my mother’s father was Marcus, and I’m named after my mother’s father
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 ; GE: And what was your mother’s maiden name?
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 ; MK: Abramson. And this is when she was a little girl in Russia with her governess and brother. Both of those were born in Odessa. And this is her family in Russia. My Uncle Leon is on the left. 0 2363 Who Ran the Business GE: So Marty, we’re just going to continue now and talk more about the business. You shared with us a little bit about the origins. If you want to share with us a little bit more, I don’t know quite who is in the business, in your family?
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 ; MK: The business was set up with basically . . . I don’t know exactly when my grandfather died, but he wasn’t really active in the business. He didn’t speak the language. My father, and I guess his older brother, picked it up rather quickly, I’m not sure how quick. They both spoke with a little dialect, you know, that we’re all used to hearing from that generation. So, basically, it was my Uncle Joe and my father, and, at the start of the business, my dad was the “inside manufacturing person” and my uncle was the sales and marketing person. 0 2628 The Business During the War GE: And so the two had the military contract throughout the war?
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 ; MK: Surefit had. We were the only ones making slipcovers up until the end of the war and because the retail stores wanted slipcovers, somehow this Comfy was able to get fabrics or what have you. My dad’s whole factory was dedicated to the war products so they couldn’t flip back. They didn’t have the capacity to do that. And there are a number of old-time employees who stayed with the company for many many years, and I was able to get a flavor of what they did during the war. They employed hundreds of people in this silk mill on Sand Island in Bethlehem. 0 2946 Transition from Wartime to Peacetime for the Business GE: Marty, want to share with us a little bit, what was the transition from wartime to peacetime like for your father’s business?
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 ; MK: Well I think they did rather well during the war because of the contracts they had with the government and it kept a lot of people out of the Army. Maybe some of them wouldn’t have survived, I don’t know. The other thing about the war and shortly after, well even prior to the period, when I came into the business, and I’m a young know-nothing who thought I knew everything, Wharton graduate and all of that stuff. I asked, we have too many relatives working here. I remember everyone, because they were mostly immigrants, they talked loud, and we had an intercom system. I felt a little embarrassed because everyone would hear shouting, even when we would go to my grandmother’s house in Philadelphia every weekend. To me, as a kid, everyone was talking loudly. He hired a number of relatives. My attitude towards that was, you know, this is not a good thing because they’re not necessarily the best qualified.
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 ; Only later did I realize that he was doing a good thing and providing jobs. Many of them were hired during the Depression. After the war, he brought a number of relatives and others that survived the war, Holocaust survivors in, and provided jobs to them. 0 3162 Steady Growth of the Business GE: So it sounds, from what I’m hearing, that it was a little bit recession-proof. It didn’t really go up during good times that strongly or down during bad times. It was pretty steady.
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 ; MK: It was kind of steady.
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 ; GE: Steady but growing.
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 ; MK: Steady but growing. You know the ups and downs and what have you. My dad was very conservative. At that time, the major customers were the national chains like Sears, Montgomery Wards, and every major city had their homegrown department store and they sold to most of every city’s homegrown department store.
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 ; GE: And it sounds like it was nationwide. 0 3623 Marty's Active Involvement in the Business GE: So you really started actively in the business about 1960?
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 ; MK: 1960 and my brother in-laws, both brother in-laws, were in the business. And we also had my three cousins from my Uncle Joe. He had passed away in 1957 and the family, like a lot of situations, it wasn’t a good fit. And we bought them out in 1963. Our family acquired their interest and it was at a time where, I think, there was a recession or something. We lost some key people because of the family, not a feud, but it was a problem that existed.
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 ; GE: What did they end up doing?
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 ; MK: One ended up teaching, one lived in Philadelphia, two of them worked in New York, but one commuted from Philadelphia. He ended up teaching in Philly and he died at an early age. 0 3818 Diversification of Products MK: Now, from that time on, in more recent years, the company diversified in other products and had a very nice growth rate.
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 ; GE: Want to tell us about that?
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 ; MK: We were a little concerned about the slipcover industry and the furniture covering industry because we also went into furniture throws. As the market expanded, with the K-Marts of the world, they couldn’t handle the slipcovers, per say, but they could handle furniture throws. We were producing, I remember, ten thousand throws a day.
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 ; GE: And what is a throw, versus a slipcover?
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 ; MK: A slipcover is a fitted slipcover, with the cushions.
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 ; GE: And it kind of has that elastic edge, right?
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 ; MK: Well, they’re a little different today. But the way we did it, we did it with mostly knitted stretch slipcovers. 0 4065 Struggles with Competition MK: We acquired a little competitor that had a . . . from Beatrice Foods that sold certain discounters on consignments that we were able to have service people now go in and count the inventory. We controlled it and we got bigger margins. Then, around the early 70s, we could see that some of these major catalogs and department stores started going out of business. The Wanamakers, the Gimbels, and we were doing slipcovers with them as well, but not to the extent that we were doing it with Sears and Montgomery Ward. We had the opportunity and we decided we should diversify so we bought a company that was manufacturing bedspreads in Japan and it was a very niche market.
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 ; We couldn’t compete with the big mills, the Burlington or J.P. Stevens, with selling bedspreads and that was even pre-comforters. They owned the space and what have you in the stores. So we found this niche market where they call it outline quilting where the stitching is done around the design, so it brought it out and they called that outline. 0 4379 Opportunity for 60 Minutes Interview MK: At one point, I get a call from 60 Minutes and they want to interview me. They were doing a whole thing on the twin plants in Mexico, the assembly operations and I said, “all the major companies, Philips, General Motors, Ford, none of them use their own names. In Mexico, they use a different name, but they were employing thousands and thousands of people. Why don’t you interview them?” They wanted to come into our facility. It was a girl with an English accent on the phone and she said, “well we’d really like to interview you about it” and I said, “It’s not all bad. This Mexico opportunity that a lot of American companies are taking advantage of, if it wasn’t in Mexico, it would be in Asia. The law is that you can assemble US products, and you don’t pay duty when they come back. You only pay duty on the added value which is the labor.” 0 4543 Expanding into Women's Apparel MK: Then we eventually went into women’s apparel because we were making our knitting when the lycra pants became very popular with the women’s fashion. We had a knitting operation because of our stretchy fabrics that we made. We started selling that fabric, lycra fabric, and then we said, because of Mexico, we might as well manufacture the whole product. Through the period, the business grew steady and it was pretty sound. We had such a diversity of products and a diversity of customers. Our largest customer when we sold it in 1990 was J.C. Penney, that represented 6% of our business, so we had a lot of good attributes to it. And the reason we sold the company, much of it was through my initiating the processes. 0 4620 Multi-Generational Business MK: Both brothers in law were 10 years older than I. I was 50 at the time, they were 60. I had 2 nephews in the business, and my children were young, and my sister Mitzi just had girls. We didn’t have any direction that the family would go. I remember the problems we had with my uncle’s son, and I said, you know, we’re having a pretty good run. There’s a time. When the first generation comes up with the idea, and they’re the ones that struggle through it, and they’re uneducated. So they get it to a point and then the second generation comes in and they’re educated. They still have some values because they remember growing up in a row house and what have you. And they move it to the next level. The third generation could start running into problems because now you’re not dealing with brothers and sisters, you’re dealing with cousins. I went through a number of family succession seminars, and I had that implanted that someday--my dad had already passed away, and my mother had Alzheimer’s so we didn’t want her to know. 0 5110 Operations in Mexico GE: So a couple of questions about the business. When you were in Mexico, that’s where the assembly was taking place and you said you had about 500 people?
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 ; MK: Yes.
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 ; GE: Back here in Bethlehem, how many people were still here?
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 ; MK: We still had about 400-500 people here.
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 ; GE: And they were just doing everything but assembling?
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 ; MK: Well they were assembling slipcovers. We were still manufacturing furniture throws and slipcovers in Bethlehem.
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 ; GE: This was the other pieces? What was being assembled in Mexico?
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 ; MK: The bed coverings. The outline quilting. We had that niche and that whole niche was very labor intensive. So that was our only way we could sell a product because we were one of the first ones to go into outline quilting and the stores, you had a flower and you just bring the quilt around it. And you see that today. Now it’s a lot of automatic equipment that does that. They program it, but at that time, it was all very extensive labor. 0 5327 Unions SC: And the other question was, which labor union would it have been?
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 ; MK: The United Textile Workers of America. It was a smaller union, and we always had a pretty good relationship with them. We had strikes, I remember we’ve had strikes, but nothing really long-lasting.
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 ; GE: Just so I understand, you started out with Slipcovers, then you very much did the throws, the quilting became a niche that you were producing in Mexico, then you were also doing the throw pillows and curtains, right?
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 ; MK: Yeah, we always did that. Now what had happened, as our bed covering business grew, it was around that time where Sears went out of the catalog business. They gave up a five billion dollar business overnight. Five billion is what they were doing in their catalog. The Sears catalog was an icon. Montgomery Wards went belly up, so we ended up with, in terms of catalogs, and again, this is all pre-internet days. If the internet would have been existing then, in fact, I had started my own catalog. 0 5485 Sales Force GE: Now tell me a little bit about how the sales force worked. It sounds like one of your brothers in law headed that part.
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 ; MK: Yeah, we had our main sales office. The showroom was on 34th Street, between Madison and 5th Avenue. That’s the later years, when I was there. We had offices on 26th Street when I first started, but that goes back. They were very attractive showrooms, and we displayed a lot of the bed coverings and furniture throws because the catalog people didn’t need showrooms. We had a showroom in Chicago for a number of years, and we had a showroom in California for a number of years. We had a warehouse in California. We had, initially, full time sales people, but then that became a very expensive thing, and we had a few full-time sales people that catered to the major accounts, but then we gravitated towards sales reps to handle other lines, as well. 0 6573 Jewish Involvement in the Industry GE: And the last question I’m going to ask before Sue asks you the final couple of questions, why do you think Jews were overrepresented in the needle-trade industry? This was an industry where they were really overrepresented.
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 ; MK: Well, I guess there was a number of reasons. I think they started out like my father, in their own homes, because it was easy to get a sewing machine. They came from Europe. They made their own clothes, so they had some inclination, you know, about that. They certainly couldn’t get jobs in banks. Most of them were uneducated anyway. They didn’t go to college, many didn’t even finish high school. They started these companies, but it was easy to get into. You buy a couple of sewing machines, and you go into it. 0 6710 What Has Made You Feel the Most Creative? SC: So, the last two questions are, what has made you feel the most creative in your life?
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 ; MK: Well I think I inherited some of that from my father. When I retired and moved to California, I decided that, other than golf, I had to be a little productive and use my head. So we have a, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of the Osher program. Osher was an individual, and if you look it up, google Osher, they run senior citizen classes at universities. They have a terrific program in the desert because of so many retirees, and we were connected with Cal State of San Bernardino. I always managed to take courses there. 0 7053 What Do You Value Most in Life? SC: And this is very short. What do you value most in life?
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 ; MK: Well, I value humor, obviously family and what have you. But I value humor and I kind of gravitate to the deprived. I’m a Republican, leaning to the right on financial and way to the left on social. That kind of describes me. But, I appreciate, particularly in the later years, my parents, the struggles they went through, and that provided for a good life to me and my family. You could value a lot of the good things, and you could become very verbal, but basically, I like good humor and I like nice people, and I’m tolerant, too. People have different viewpoints. So what? Let it be. I’m kind of like laid back. And that’s my story. 0 MovingImage Marty Krasnov talks about how his father got into the furniture slipcover manufacturing business as well as how the company got the “SureFit” name. During World War II, the firm switched from making slipcovers for furniture to making parachutes for the military because the specialized equipment SureFit already owned to produce slipcovers was easily retrofitted to make parachutes. Marty and his brothers-in-law sold the business in 1990. SureFit is one of the very few brands that still remains. Interview with Marty Krasnov, June 22, 2016 SUSAN CLEMENS-BRUDER: Today is June 22, 2016. First I'd like you to put yourself into some kind of context. What's your full name, when were you born and where were you born? MARTY KRASNOV: I'm Marty Krasnov, I was born in 1938 in the Jewish Hospital of Philadelphia. SC: Over your life where have you lived? Sort of to see an arc of where you've lived from Philadelphia perhaps to where you are now? MK: I believe it was 1940 when the family moved to Allentown, and I basically have lived here ever since. SC: And can you tell me a little bit about your family history? What you know, first of all, perhaps about your father's family as much as you know. Where they came from, how they got to the United States, and when they got to the United States? MK: My father and his family were from an area in the Ukraine called Unum, (u-n-u-m). Or u-n-a-m, I'm not quite sure. The city still exists, I looked it up once or twice and it was heavily populated by Jews, and they must've had some religious institutions that attracted people from other areas to visit periodically. My understanding is, his father ran a general store. The only story that my father ever told about that is when he was a little kid, they had a crawlspace, and they had cartons where people would sit and sit around a stovepipe or whatever, and he constructed a gadget where you pull a string and a needle would go through the seat, and whoever was sitting there would jump. It's the only story I ever heard about this general store. Somewhere, at the age of 14 or 15, it's my understanding that to avoid the military school, and the Czars, and you've probably heard this from prior interviews, that was a time that they filtered a lot of these kids out of Russia through an underground railroad. He went through Italy so he ended up in Italy somehow and he had an uncle in Philadelphia. The family still remained in Russia. He had an older brother who I think was married at the time but maybe not. My father was born in 1895. I believe he was about 15 or 16 when he came over so that would've placed him coming here around 1910-1912, something in that timeframe. An interesting story, and this is an oral story that we heard, it was passed down in our immediate family. There are always question marks about it but this occurred with my father's grandmother, and we tried to put a date on it which would've been like the 1840s. They lived in a shtetl outside of this town, Unum. They had an ox and a cart and that's how they went from place to place and they were heading back to the shtetl in a blizzard. It was getting dark and when they got back to their home the baby who was a two-year-old or a one-year-old was missing and by now it was dark and you cannot go back. They didn't have flashlights or anything, and I guess they had a lot of children in anticipation of events like this and they presumed that the baby would freeze to death. We don't know what went through their mind. Obviously it must have been quite emotional. The next morning the villagers, the people in the shtetl, got up at daybreak and they went back the same way and they reached a certain point in the road and they see this black bear, and they startled the bear and the bear ran into the woods and at that spot, the baby was there, breathing, living, and in good shape. So they called this baby, which was my great-grandmother or my great great grandmother, I'm not really sure, the miracle baby of Unam. I and my older sister tried to find out if there's anything documented but obviously there wasn't. Whether it's a fable or whether it happened or not, it's a family story. Then my dad came over. He had an uncle living in Philadelphia at the age of 15 or 16, and incidentally, in Russia, my dad went to a yeshiva as a kid. That's how he got his education, so he was learned in the religion. Not overly religious himself, when he got here, but he was educated very well. He spoke Hebrew fluently, he spoke Yiddish. That's how they communicated in those days in the Ukraine. And he began working at the same textile factory as my uncle. So that brings them up to right before the First World War, and during the time that spanned when he got here and the First World War. His whole family came over and at that time, I know my uncle was married because my dad was drafted. Obviously he wasn't very anxious to go back to Europe. They didn't draft my uncle because he was the eldest and married. There was some regulation that absolved the eldest who was married from being drafted. My grandfather didn't speak English. The family consisted of my father and my uncle, Joe, who was the eldest, and he had another brother, two other brothers that were younger, and a sister. One of the brothers died from influenza that I never knew, but I knew all the other siblings of his. Another story, he was always very slight. I don't think he weighed more than a hundred pounds or a hundred and twenty pounds his whole life. There were certain weight requirements to meet when he was drafted and so they put him in Philadelphia. There's a place called the Camac that was the schvitz [Yiddish for baths] and they took him to the Camac the night before his physical. They wouldn't let him out of the [sauna] room so he would lose that extra eight pounds or five pounds. Then, at night, he was so thirsty, he snuck down to the kitchen and drank it all back, and he was drafted. They sent him to Fort Lee, Virginia. And the story is there were all these immigrants that they sent. All kinds of languages, you know, and he mentioned something strawfoot. They used to call it strawfoot, because they put a straw on the right leg or the left leg so the immigrants knew because they couldn't say right, left because half of them couldn't understand what was right or left. So they'd know that the straws were all supposed to march at the same time. And everyone went to sick call every day, except my father, he never went to sick call. A week before, he actually fainted and they took him to the hospital. He had like a sun-stroke, and they figured, well, he's credible because they never saw him in sick call before. And a week later, all of the others were shipped over to Europe and my dad never went. They just missed him. So that brings us to that point in time. My mother's family was quite interesting and we seem to know a little more about her because she spoke more than my dad. She was born in Odessa and, prior to her being born, her aunt married into the largest tea company in Russia. My grandfather, who I never met, was employed by them, and they sent him to South Africa, and he was there for seven years. And he wanted my grandmother, at the time living in Moscow, my mother had not been born yet, to move to South Africa. Things were good there, life was good there, the weather was nice, and it was cheap living but she wouldn't move out of Moscow. So seven years later he went back and the tea company moved him to Odessa, and that's where my mother and uncle Harry were born. It was a pretty large family of siblings. She had five brothers and she was the only girl, and the youngest in the family. We have pictures of her with a governess. I have one here and you can tell the way, the photography of the whole family, they were very well dressed, and you can tell they were reasonably affluent and had a good life in Russia. They sent the oldest son, Leon, my uncle Leon, they sent him to Switzerland to medical school. but Leon was a philanderer and a womanizer, and they didn't realize at the time that he wasn't really going to medical school. What he was doing was hanging out at the Bern Library with Trotsky and Lenin. We don't know much about what went on there but they were able to rescue him when they immigrated to the United States, so he never got too much involved and lived a happy life in Hartford, Connecticut. When my mother was eight years, old, the tea company sent the family to the United States and on the way, the ship, I guess they came through the Baltic, hit an iceberg, and they had to wait six months in Norway for the ship to be repaired. During that six-month period, the Revolution occurred, and the tea company was nationalized. And they're heading to the United States with a promise that they're gonna get aid by the tea company, but that doesn't exist anymore. I didn't know very much of this as a child. All I know is that my mother was brought up in a very poor environment in Philadelphia. Her mother was an invalid, her father had passed away, I guess was heartbroken, a couple of years after they arrived. My mother was born in 1908, I believe, and the Revolution was in 1917, so, when she passed away in 1995, she was 88. We found a diary that she had kept as a girl, and there were references in Yiddish about money that was supposed to arrive from London this month, and it didn't come and it didn't come last month. So the family didn't have access to any of the monies that were promised because obviously, there was no money. She was brought up in Strawberry Mansion, in Philadelphia. As I say, we visited and she still had a brother that lived in the same house that she was brought up in. My perception of her background was being very very poor. She went to Temple University at night, she was the only daughter, and she had to take care of her mother who was an invalid. I don't remember my grandmother, she died when I was two years old or so. The only grandparent out of all four was my grandmother, Rose, and she died when I was eleven years old so I knew her pretty well. I have pictures of both sides of the family. So I'm bringing it up to a point when they were raised in this country. SC: Do you know where any other people worked in this country, whether the women worked because they were poor? MK: My mother, apparently, always had to work, and she went to night school so I presume, but she didn't talk much about it. I think she worked in a department store. My father and his older brother Joseph and, I presume, my grandfather because there's a safe . . . but we had one time, Isadore Krasnov & ; Sons. My grandfather was Isadore. I don't know why they had this huge safe because they didn't have too much at the time. They started peddling on the street and started making blouses and dresses in their own home, and I guess the business kind of grew. There's a story that we were told, not by my father, but by one of the other relatives that during the First World War they manufactured these sailor blouses for women, and they were able to get large quantities of the fabric. Then the war ended and no one bought these blouses, and they couldn't pay their bills. And it was the fear of going to debtors' prison, I guess, that my grandmother insisted that they pay off every penny. She didn't want her husband and her two boys to go to prison. I guess they had that mentality. So that's a period that's kind of hazy with me. I guess they persevered in manufacturing. I think they probably got moved out of their home, and began to build this business in the blouses and dresses, from what I understand. The reason they got into the company, which I inherited, Surefit Products, was, my grandmother asked my father, who was always very good with his hands and creating things, an inventive kind of thing. My grandmother asked him to bring some fabric home to cover the sofa. In Europe they covered stuff with sheets, that's just what everyone did. And my father took this fabric and he made a slipcover out of it. And her reaction after he put it on -- he did the measurements and everything -- She said, in Yiddish, "This sure fits". So that's how the name came about. And they went to Lit Brothers, which was a major department store in Philadelphia at the time, and they put it on consignment and they did rather well with it and that was the beginning of Surefit Products and the slipcover business, which eventually grew into a pretty large company. SC: Would you now talk about where you have gone to school and where you've worked from the time you were a little kid, all the way to when you started working? MK: My recollection of growing up was in what would today be referred to as the Jewish ghetto, which was somewhere between South Fulton or S. 15th St. to South 17th St. I grew up on 16th St. and, even today, some of the people you've interviewed grew up on that street. And I know almost every house when I drive by, who lived here, who lived there and what have you. I'll tell you one humorous story about living there. Across the street from us was a family, George Somach. They were in the bridal business and George was a prominent person in town and certainly, in our synagogue. He was president of Temple Beth El for many years ; they named an auditorium after him, Somach Auditorium. I guess it was 1951, and I remember that because that's when the Philadelphia Whiz Kids [nickname of the Phillies team that year] played in the World Series and in those days when you had your wisdom teeth out, they took you to the hospital. And I'm in the hospital and George Somach was apparently in the room across from me. He had a heart attack, and he was in some plastic oxygen thing. They had this terrific invention, something new the hospital had, where they'd roll a TV in your room, you'd put a nickel in, and you could watch TV. It was wonderful, and I'm watching the baseball game. As a young kid, it was important, and I ran out of change. Mr. Somach, George, had a nurse in his room all the time. When I went in, she [the nurse] was on a coffee break, and I opened up the plastic because I panicked and I said, "Mr. Somach, I'm Marty Krasnov." He's in a daze, he didn't even know who I was. I said, "Sam Krasnov's son, I need some nickels, do you have any change? I'm watching TV. I need nickels." And he says "look in my pants. They're in the closet." So I go in, and I put my hand in his pocket. The nurse comes in, so now, they have my mother come to the hospital. He [George Somach] falls asleep. He doesn't know that he even told me to look in his pants. They're not going to wake him up and start inquiring from him, and I remember my mother taking me aside in the hospital, and saying "we don't have to tell your father about this." And I mentioned that story to George Somach's grandkids. One of them is a lawyer in town, and he didn't know. No one knew about this story, but anyway ; 16th Street was quite interesting because it was a great place to grow up. Just a wonderful area, there were all these row homes and, just from my perspective, even today, when we meet Alan Steinberg, whom you know. We were talking recently about it and it was just a terrific place. Everyone knew everyone else, the kids just enjoyed themselves. My next-door neighbor was Dr. Weiner, and we used to hide behind the trees when he came home from his dental practice. He had a very turbulent marriage, first marriage, and literally, pots and pans would come flying out the front door, and we'd be behind a tree or a car, watching this at 5:10 every day, and this is the background that I had. And then from there, right after my bar mitzvah, and I was one of the first ones at the new synagogue, at Beth El, that was bar mitzvahed. We had a little disruption during it because a dog came in and caused some fuss when I was up doing my thing. Rabbi Greenburg and Cantor Sherer, they were the officiators. So at age 13 right after we moved to Muhlenberg and Walnut Street and this was away from the rowhouse. We had a mulberry tree there and my sister had started college, she was home. My other sister was three years older so she was 16 or something and he [my father] remembered how to make wine. He thought he remembered how to make wine at his general store as a kid back in Unam, in Russia, and he put canvas under the mulberry tree and he had my sisters and I stamp with our feet. We thought this was kind of neat and I remember it was a real major happening because my sister Mitsi, I guess was going to a prom or something, and her feet were all purple and that didn't come out. It was just a big tado going on, to me it didn't mean anything. And then he mixed a little of this and a little of that and it tasted like mulberry juice. It didn't taste like wine. But we had a happy childhood-- we went to summer camps, and we had all the fine things that we could ever want. SC: So was the Surefit established in Philadelphia, then moved up here? MK: Yes, I understand they moved over a weekend, because they had some major union problems. I presume they moved to Bethlehem because it's a needle trades . . . being a female industry, and the Bethlehem Steel workers', their wives were good workers. And they moved to an old silk mill on Sand Island, and I think they bought it in 1940 or so or '39. I know I was told we moved here when I was 2 so it would've been 1940. I think they moved the company maybe a year before I was born, so that's how they ended up in Bethlehem. SC: Would you talk a little bit about your education? MK: Sure. I started out-- in fact, I was just telling this story to my cousin, the other night-- who was visiting from Cleveland. They were talking about their grandchildren in kindergarten and I had a vision of my first day in kindergarten, which was at the Swain School. In those days it was at the Masonic Temple, in the basement. They had a couple rooms for kindergarten. Mrs. Swain ran it and right next to it was a radio station because we used to always look through the glass and see the broadcasts there. I have this vision, that the first day, I went, living on 16th Street, which was close by the Masonic Temple, hiding under the bed, and my mother couldn't get to me and so she called Mrs. Swain. Mrs. Swain, Esther Swain, came to our house on 16th Street and negotiated with me to come out from under the bed and how wonderful the school is. I imagine she was successful. I don't have a recollection of crawling out. I just have a recollection seeing this strange woman and I, with an eye stare, I'm under the bed, and she's leaning under the bed. So then I went to grade school, all through junior high to Raub. So, living on 16th Street, I'd walk to school, and then when we moved to Muhlenberg and Walnut, I would take a bus to school. I went to Allen High, and then I went to Penn, University of Penn, Wharton School, so that was my education. My wife, who's not here, she, kind of a fun story about how I met her. I met her in El Paso, Texas, and she went to college for two years. I went to music school and we got married. So my education stopped. I graduated in 1960. I had foolishly, I had nothing to do in the summers so I took extra courses at Temple and Lehigh. When I was a senior, I only had maybe two classes and I began working for the company in New York and commuted back on Fridays, I arranged. So now I had a party weekend every week without having that depression Sunday night about going back to school on Monday. I graduated in 1960 with my class, and l still have some very close friends from Penn. GAIL EISENBERG: Can you give me the names of your parents and grandparents? MK: Sure. I'm gonna take these pictures out so you can look at them. I knew I was going to show these pictures to someone. I have them, and we have many more and you've seen pictures very similar to these. We'll start with my family, as children, my older sister, as you can tell, my sister, Roz, that is me, my older sister, Roz. She is living in New Jersey and she is seven years older than I, and my sister, Mitsi Goldenberg, living in Florida. Parents passed away, my father was 85. He died on my birthday in 1980 and my mother passed away in 1995 and she was 88. GE: What were their names? MK: Sam, Samuel and Fanny, with a Y. GE: So, it's Samuel Krasnov, and his father was Isidore? MK: Isidore, and my mother's father was Marcus, and I'm named after my mother's father GE: And what was your mother's maiden name? MK: Abramson. And this is when she was a little girl in Russia with her governess and brother. Both of those were born in Odessa. And this is her family in Russia. My Uncle Leon is on the left. GE: This is your mom's? MK: This is my mother's family and this is all her brothers. GE: So this little boy here? MK: That's my Uncle Sam, my Uncle Harry, my Uncle Leon here and my Uncle Eli. my grandfather Marcus, my grandmother Bertha, and my mother Fanny. So she looks like she's about two years old here and this picture then would be around 1910. When she was 8, that's when they left Russia, and the way they are dressed. and this picture of the governess and my mother. They were very affluent at the time, relatively speaking. GE: Your parents are Samuel and Fanny. your father's father was Isidore, what was his wife's name? MK: Rose. And that's this family here. And I don't know who all these other people are but, these two here, Isidore and Rose. The only grandparent I really knew was my grandmother Rose, who we called Bubbie [Yiddish for grandmother] , and she's the one who said " this sure fits", in Yiddish. GE: So Samuel's parents were Rose and Isidor, and with Fanny, her father was Marcus? MK: Yes, Marcus Abramson. GE: And Bertha. MK: And Bertha GE: And Marty, your siblings were Roz and Mitzi? MK: And that's it, and I'm the baby. And all three of us are living and in reasonably good health. GE: So Marty, we're just going to continue now and talk more about the business. You shared with us a little bit about the origins. If you want to share with us a little bit more, I don't know quite who is in the business, in your family? MK: The business was set up with basically . . . I don't know exactly when my grandfather died, but he wasn't really active in the business. He didn't speak the language. My father, and I guess his older brother, picked it up rather quickly, I'm not sure how quick. They both spoke with a little dialect, you know, that we're all used to hearing from that generation. So, basically, it was my Uncle Joe and my father, and, at the start of the business, my dad was the "inside manufacturing person" and my uncle was the sales and marketing person. My uncle lived in Philadelphia, and we lived here in Allentown at the time. My understanding, and I know, factually, they manufactured the slipcovers. In those days, they were able to use only woven fabrics because the furniture was not that diversified. Their market was, I guess, lower middle class, and that was the Goldblatts and the Lit Brothers and Gimbels, the department stores of that ilk They, eventually, as furniture became a little more diverse, they began a knitting mill. A lot of the slipcovers at that time were stretch fabrics and then they got in a big way in furniture throws, which you just threw fabric over the furniture with fringe and what have you, but that was later on. During the Second World War, because of the shortage of fabric and materials, they manufactured exclusively for the government. They had prime contracts for parachutes and pup tents because the product was bulky, like slipcovers, and they had the equipment that could handle larger type products. So they manufactured, as I said, parachutes and pup tents and, I guess, any canvas type products. It kept a lot of the employees out of the war because they were making strategic products for the military. And that, during the war, was when their main competitor opened up. The door opened for competition while they [Surefit] were doing all military work. A company called Comfy, out of Baltimore.The slipcover industry was not like the apparel industry with very niche type products and very small markets. So basically, it was just the two companies that eventually competed head-on against each other. GE: And so the two had the military contract throughout the war? MK: Surefit had. We were the only ones making slipcovers up until the end of the war and because the retail stores wanted slipcovers, somehow this Comfy was able to get fabrics or what have you. My dad's whole factory was dedicated to the war products so they couldn't flip back. They didn't have the capacity to do that. And there are a number of old-time employees who stayed with the company for many many years, and I was able to get a flavor of what they did during the war. They employed hundreds of people in this silk mill on Sand Island in Bethlehem. At one point in time, I knew when I was working and came into the business, we were the second largest manufacturer in Bethlehem. The first was Bethlehem Steel with 25 thousand and then it was Surefit, maybe with five, six hundred, seven hundred people at the time. The company, I recall, one of the big problems with Sand Island is that Sand Island is located between the Lehigh River and the Lehigh Canal. I loved it as a kid, going there on Saturdays, sitting in the office and shooting paperclips with a rubber band and the trains would go by and things were happening, both on the canal and the Lehigh River. Sand Island was right in between. I was a sophomore in high school or a senior in high school, and I know my father had given me his old company car that had a hundred and fifty thousand miles on it, but it was my car. This was great. And they had - I forget which hurricane it was - and they've had floods before there. This one was really bad and I drove my father and there was the hill-to-hill bridge. The only way to get to Sand Island was down a ramp where Fritch Fuel is. They eliminated that ramp now, and they built a bridge from the North Bethlehem side, but at that time, you could only go with this ramp, and I remember we parked at the bottom of the ramp and walked all the way to the factory. They had a system where, if there was a potential flooding, they had ten people that would come in, but we were there for three days, and they wanted to rescue us by helicopter, which I was all for. I could see myself climbing a ladder, you know, this is terrific, but there were too many telephone wires. So they finally got us by Red Cross boat, but they threw lines across the canal and that's how we got food and water. There were ten of us that were there for three days. For me, it was very exciting, I was in high school and this was not the average day, you know. But, obviously, it was very devastating and shortly after, a year or two after, 1956, so the flood was, I think, around '55. If you look at the history books, it was a terrible flood. My car that he gave me ended up in Easton. That's the thing that upset me the most, not the hundreds of thousands of dollars of inventory that they lost, it was my car that I had lost. SC: Hurricane Hazel. Because I was really little and I remember my parents going to their friends house and my brother was watching me to help them get water out of their basement. MK: Yes, it was a major one. I remember during the Korean War, they apparently had a Navy contract for bathrobes, because we had more bathrobes at home, Navy bathrobes. Anything that had a little hole or a tear, they couldn't put through production, so we ended up with all of these bathrobes. GE: Marty, want to share with us a little bit, what was the transition from wartime to peacetime like for your father's business? MK: Well I think they did rather well during the war because of the contracts they had with the government and it kept a lot of people out of the Army. Maybe some of them wouldn't have survived, I don't know. The other thing about the war and shortly after, well even prior to the period, when I came into the business, and I'm a young know-nothing who thought I knew everything, Wharton graduate and all of that stuff. I asked, we have too many relatives working here. I remember everyone, because they were mostly immigrants, they talked loud, and we had an intercom system. I felt a little embarrassed because everyone would hear shouting, even when we would go to my grandmother's house in Philadelphia every weekend. To me, as a kid, everyone was talking loudly. He hired a number of relatives. My attitude towards that was, you know, this is not a good thing because they're not necessarily the best qualified. Only later did I realize that he was doing a good thing and providing jobs. Many of them were hired during the Depression. After the war, he brought a number of relatives and others that survived the war, Holocaust survivors in, and provided jobs to them. So, at the time, I didn't appreciate what he was doing, and only later, as an adult, it sank in that it was a very noble thing, and expected, and it was a responsibility of his. Following the war, this would be in the late 40s and 50s I think, the business was successful. People had money. The thing about the slipcover business was, when times got bad, people had a tendency to, instead of buying furniture, they'd buy slipcovers. And then, when times were good, you have that large population that can't afford new furniture anyway, so they would maybe buy used furniture. There was a need for it, a market for it. The business flourished, but they had their ups and downs. GE: So it sounds, from what I'm hearing, that it was a little bit recession-proof. It didn't really go up during good times that strongly or down during bad times. It was pretty steady. MK: It was kind of steady. GE: Steady but growing. MK: Steady but growing. You know the ups and downs and what have you. My dad was very conservative. At that time, the major customers were the national chains like Sears, Montgomery Wards, and every major city had their homegrown department store and they sold to most of every city's homegrown department store. GE: And it sounds like it was nationwide. MK: Yes. GE: And that was both you and Comfy? Or were you more into certain regions? MK: Both. And some other little companies that started too. They were more lower end. I started in 1960 and at that time, the business was doing maybe $20 million. Which I guess, in today's dollars, would be pretty good, and we employed, I'd say five to six hundred people. After the flood of '55, he acquired a company called Laros. I don't know if that name strikes a bell. It was in Bethlehem. Major, major employer. Laros name is, I think he built the YMCA in Bethlehem . . . a very prominent individual, and their silk business kind of waned. So they sold out to Warnaco, the brassiere people. When they bought the company, bought the building, and it was about a 230-40 thousand square-foot building. Three stories. And we added on and eventually it ended up about 300 thousand square feet. GE: With Sand Island? Or instead of? MK: No, they kept the building on Sand Island. Eventually, the year 2000, the building was vacant, because we had already sold the business. But it was a building ; I brought in the Rouse company. The Musikfest was interested in buying the building and converting it. What they did now at Steelstacks, they were thinking of putting up a boardwalk, and I was in conversations. We brought the James Rouse company. They were the ones that did the Boston Faneuill Hall and Baltimore Harbor and the timing was wrong. But at the time, the building was this old silk mill with a thousand windows on both sides. It had to be boarded up, and we had fires every other day. Kids would go in, and we had an escaped convict living there for a month. It was just driving me crazy and then we called in the Amish. Someone said "get the Amish, they'll tear it down for you" because we thought the land would be nice to keep, on Sand Island. The problem with the Amish is you can't call them, they don't talk on the phone, but eventually, we finally got someone. We had asbestos in the building so that didn't pan out. I got so disgusted and it was just aggravating to me. I said the city was good to us all these years, I'm gonna give the building back to the city, which I did. And I know we were in California, about two months after I had given it to the city and they had the largest fire they ever had in Bethlehem. The building burnt down. And I'm sure, the powers to be, I'm not accusing anyone, but they instructed the fire department, "don't be too anxious to go down and put it out." When I owned it, I'd get calls all the time. That's just a side note about that Sand Island property, but they ended up with this property on River St.[?] One of the fun things, Laros, during the Second World War or Korean War, how they got into this, I don't know. They manufactured white corpuscles, synthetic white corpuscles, and they formed a company called Pahrmacan [?] which I think is still in business. I don't know what they do, but, up until 10 years ago they were. When they sold the building to us, the Pharmacan had a two story section in the building, not large, where they had this very sophisticated equipment that manufactured this. So the deal was, at the time, Warnaco would rent our River Street property, Sand Island property, for us, so they were really narrowing their operation down and they did that for a couple years, but this Pharmacam had to remain in our building for x number of years. Fun thing about that was they had an experimental lab, just a hut within our building, all glass. And you look in and you see all these people with white uniforms with masks and rabbits. Well when we'd bring customers to take a tour, which we often did because we had an interesting operation, they would say "what is that?" "Well that's our testing lab, we test all our fabrics. We give them to the rabbits." And they had to believe us, no one is going to make a joke and have all these people there with rabbits so we had a lot of fun with that and eventually they closed that down. GE: So you really started actively in the business about 1960? MK: 1960 and my brother in-laws, both brother in-laws, were in the business. And we also had my three cousins from my Uncle Joe. He had passed away in 1957 and the family, like a lot of situations, it wasn't a good fit. And we bought them out in 1963. Our family acquired their interest and it was at a time where, I think, there was a recession or something. We lost some key people because of the family, not a feud, but it was a problem that existed. GE: What did they end up doing? MK: One ended up teaching, one lived in Philadelphia, two of them worked in New York, but one commuted from Philadelphia. He ended up teaching in Philly and he died at an early age. He was on drugs, I don't know. My other cousin, I'm not quite sure what he ended up doing, and my third one, who I knew more about, because he lived in Allentown. His name was George Krasnov. He went into the knitting business and then I think he brought his kids in and, like all of the textile knitting businesses, they went by the way, you know. Interesting, Surefit is a very viable company today. GE: When did your father retire? MK: He never retired. He died at age 85. That was it. Like many of the fathers of people you interviewed. Only this generation retires early. GE: So he, you, and your two brothers in-law? MK: Yes. GE: And who stayed in charge of the operation and who took over more of the sales and marketing? MK: My oldest sister's husband was in New York. We always had national sales managers and that was the structure. My sister Mitzi's husband was more in production and I was in the finance part. And, that was how it was after we acquired the other family's interest. Now, from that time on, in more recent years, the company diversified in other products and had a very nice growth rate. GE: Want to tell us about that? MK: We were a little concerned about the slipcover industry and the furniture covering industry because we also went into furniture throws. As the market expanded, with the K-Marts of the world, they couldn't handle the slipcovers, per say, but they could handle furniture throws. We were producing, I remember, ten thousand throws a day. GE: And what is a throw, versus a slipcover? MK: A slipcover is a fitted slipcover, with the cushions. GE: And it kind of has that elastic edge, right? MK: Well, they're a little different today. But the way we did it, we did it with mostly knitted stretch slipcovers. After the department stores started going by the wayside, we began selling more and more to the catalog people-- slipcovers per se, the fitted slipcovers. Each had individual cushions, they were solids or printed, and they stretched, and we fit x number of styles of furniture. We couldn't fit all of the styles. So, we sold to Spiegel, Sears, Montgomery Ward, and Penneys had their own catalogs. Any catalog in the country, at a time, this is pre-internet. And Sears catalogs and Montgomery Ward catalogs, these were huge things. Then it evolved where we would basically, it was a great way to present the product, and we would present it in room scenes. So you'd show a living room with our slipcovers and then with draperies and toss pillows, but we were the largest resource for Spiegels for toss pillows. We had maybe 10-12 pages of slipcovers and every page had toss pillows on it that matched the slipcovers and people would just buy toss pillows and draperies, like window treatments. We were selling a whole coordinated room, so that's when that business started taking off, in a bigger way, even though we were losing the department store business. In place of that, came the discounters. All of a sudden, the discounters started showing up, the Zayres, Korvettes the Kings, and we sold them all. And that's how we sold the furniture throws. A throw is 60 by 90 for a chair, sofas, 70 by 140, so we had different sizes, four sizes of a furniture throw. We laminated it with foam so they wouldn't slip and you put either a ruffle or a fringe around them. It was a simple bulky product. As I said, I remember because I'd see these things coming down the chute every second. I said "My God, everyone's buying one of these things every second." So the business began to grow and, as the discounters grew, that became a major factor. We acquired a little competitor that had a . . . from Beatrice Foods that sold certain discounters on consignments that we were able to have service people now go in and count the inventory. We controlled it and we got bigger margins. Then, around the early 70s, we could see that some of these major catalogs and department stores started going out of business. The Wanamakers, the Gimbels, and we were doing slipcovers with them as well, but not to the extent that we were doing it with Sears and Montgomery Ward. We had the opportunity and we decided we should diversify so we bought a company that was manufacturing bedspreads in Japan and it was a very niche market. We couldn't compete with the big mills, the Burlington or J.P. Stevens, with selling bedspreads and that was even pre-comforters. They owned the space and what have you in the stores. So we found this niche market where they call it outline quilting where the stitching is done around the design, so it brought it out and they called that outline. And they used big, long-arm sewing machines and we acquired a very small company in Japan, and we operated in Japan for maybe 2 or 3 years. Then it was tough because it was not into a price point that meant anything and so we moved it to Korea. We had a little more success there because the labor rates were much much lower and all our fabric came from Japan so we were able to function. But, as it became popular, we realized that long term, if we're gonna make a business out of this, we've got to move it closer to the country. First of all, it costs too much money sending people over all the time. It's a bulky product so we had to ship by container which would take two months. We sold, for example, Sears a Diane Furstenberg design and it was the best selling bedspread they had, and we couldn't meet the deliveries. Then the next year we had too much because of the requirement. It was too difficult. We were like "we've got to get this thing closer, we've got to go to a real low labor market because the labor involved is very expensive", so we said, "ok we'll change. We'll buy all our fabrics here in this country now", and we changed the whole operation. We went to Haiti and that was really a forte I had. I enjoyed doing that, going to a country and having no idea. Korea was already set up. I wasn't too involved in that, but Haiti I was. The problem with Haiti is that we had to get our polyester batting from Puerto Rico because you couldn't ship it from the states because it was too expensive. And Puerto Rico was a big brassiere industry and that's where they used all this polyester. Well the guy that owned the only factory ended up with a hernia, and he was in the hospital for a couple weeks, and he closed the factory, so this is not good. So we closed Haiti and, at the time, we were able to go into Mexico on the border at Juarez, Mexico. I basically set that up and researched it and got the whole thing going and, as I said, it was pretty good at that time. That's when everything started growing in our bedspread business and, eventually we ended up with 600 employees in Mexico, manufacturing outline quilted products. We were the first ones to do all of these kinds of Americana quilts where you put all of those pieces together. Anything that could be labor intensive. At one point, I get a call from 60 Minutes and they want to interview me. They were doing a whole thing on the twin plants in Mexico, the assembly operations and I said, "all the major companies, Philips, General Motors, Ford, none of them use their own names. In Mexico, they use a different name, but they were employing thousands and thousands of people. Why don't you interview them?" They wanted to come into our facility. It was a girl with an English accent on the phone and she said, "well we'd really like to interview you about it" and I said, "It's not all bad. This Mexico opportunity that a lot of American companies are taking advantage of, if it wasn't in Mexico, it would be in Asia. The law is that you can assemble US products, and you don't pay duty when they come back. You only pay duty on the added value which is the labor." I said, "As an example, we were in Asia, and in Asia, we had to use all foreign fabrics and what have you. Now, we're in Mexico, we're using all US fabrics. We're employing people because we have to cut the fabric in the United States." You can't cut in Mexico, and I said "We're employing many, many more people here in this country because we're in Mexico and other vendors are benefitting as well." "Well that's an interesting viewpoint", she says, "Can we interview you?" I said "excuse me, I've got to take another call and think" and I look out my window and from my window, at our factory. I could see 4-5 miles of Bethlehem Steel and I said this is not gonna be a good idea. It's a no win, so I declined. It was my chance to be on 60 Minutes. But the business flourished. Then we eventually went into women's apparel because we were making our knitting when the lycra pants became very popular with the women's fashion. We had a knitting operation because of our stretchy fabrics that we made. We started selling that fabric, lycra fabric, and then we said, because of Mexico, we might as well manufacture the whole product. Through the period, the business grew steady and it was pretty sound. We had such a diversity of products and a diversity of customers. Our largest customer when we sold it in 1990 was J.C. Penney, that represented 6% of our business, so we had a lot of good attributes to it. And the reason we sold the company, much of it was through my initiating the processes. Both brothers in law were 10 years older than I. I was 50 at the time, they were 60. I had 2 nephews in the business, and my children were young, and my sister Mitzi just had girls. We didn't have any direction that the family would go. I remember the problems we had with my uncle's son, and I said, you know, we're having a pretty good run. There's a time. When the first generation comes up with the idea, and they're the ones that struggle through it, and they're uneducated. So they get it to a point and then the second generation comes in and they're educated. They still have some values because they remember growing up in a row house and what have you. And they move it to the next level. The third generation could start running into problems because now you're not dealing with brothers and sisters, you're dealing with cousins. I went through a number of family succession seminars, and I had that implanted that someday--my dad had already passed away, and my mother had Alzheimer's so we didn't want her to know. So in 1990, we contacted Bear-Stearns, an investment banking company in New York that is no longer here. We met with them and worked out values. Our main thought was basically to try to bring in a foreign buyer. Number one, we thought we'd get more money. Number two was we could keep it a secret as long as we could from our customers and employees of the company that it was being offered for sale. Certainly for our employees, we didn't want them to know. Everyone was doing well. And they liked what they saw, after we established a value so there was no real conflict of interest. They had formed a leveraged buyout group. They had bought the first one that was a real success that was [??]. And they liked what they saw with us, a nice growth, diversity of product, and customers, so they made an offering, and we sold it to them, and I had a five-year contract. This was 1990 and, right prior to the selling, the country went into a pretty deep recession, and I didn't like the way they [the new owners] reacted to it. They were making decisions that were short-sighted. You know, you would struggle through it, but they would get rid of this and do that and I was very upset about it. And I said to them, this isn't for me. It was easy to say because we had money in the bank and I realized what I wanted to realize. My two brothers in-law stayed on for maybe another six months and it became unpleasant. They got rid of employees, and we had a lot of guilt with it. I did, I had a lot of guilt, and I thought it was just best to part ways. So I had very little contact. I still don't have any contact. Most of the people are gone, it's been 26 years. Bear-Stearns got caught up in that bubble. The company was sold two or three times, but I understand they're doing decently, and now the internet has been a big help to them. If you Google "Surefit", you'll see their website and it's quite impressive. They still sell to Target and Wal-Mart. They did get in a lot of trouble because of those two accounts, which represented well over 50% of their business at one time, and when they started manufacturing everything in China, they kept their warehouse. They moved out of our building a couple of years after we sold it. I was still here in town and I ended up with 22 tenants and, because it was an ancient building and these were not quality tenants, a couple were, I said "what do I need this for?" so I sold the building. We gave away the Sand Island property to the city. Interesting story was at the beginning of my rental process, all of a sudden, I became a realtor. The Women's Junior League, I guess it is, came to me and said, we had very few tenants in the building, so they said, "We're bringing a dinosaur exhibit into the area and we would like to rent, but we don't have any money to pay you. The reason we like your space is because you have this two-story room and it's perfect for the main dinosaur." So I negotiated with the Women's Junior League and, what they agreed to do was, through their volunteers, they were going to put up partitions and do this and do that, which would enhance the value afterwards. We broke up some of the spaces after they left that we could now lease. So it worked out fine. They were there for 6 months. It was in conjunction with Lehigh University. They had all kinds of computer stuff. I don't know if any of you went to that dinosaur exhibit. They had 100,000 children go through from all over and it was a big thing in the area. It attracted other people and everyone was in that building. I sold the building in 2000, and we started spending our winters in California. So after this whole story, I have been fortunate to see the light at the end of the tunnel. And my story is very similar, I'm sure, to many people you interviewed, in terms of the families and the backgrounds and how they ended up here. GE: So a couple of questions about the business. When you were in Mexico, that's where the assembly was taking place and you said you had about 500 people? MK: Yes. GE: Back here in Bethlehem, how many people were still here? MK: We still had about 400-500 people here. GE: And they were just doing everything but assembling? MK: Well they were assembling slipcovers. We were still manufacturing furniture throws and slipcovers in Bethlehem. GE: This was the other pieces? What was being assembled in Mexico? MK: The bed coverings. The outline quilting. We had that niche and that whole niche was very labor intensive. So that was our only way we could sell a product because we were one of the first ones to go into outline quilting and the stores, you had a flower and you just bring the quilt around it. And you see that today. Now it's a lot of automatic equipment that does that. They program it, but at that time, it was all very extensive labor. GE: So when you were doing that, Burlington and J.P. Stevens were not doing that, correct? MK: Correct. It was not an important market to them. They couldn't compete with U.S. labor, and I don't think they were anxious to go offshores in those days. They had unions and what have you but we had a union here too, a textile union. In Mexico, well, we actually ended up with a union in Mexico. The wage rates made it possible for us to get into that business. We didn't take jobs away. We actually created jobs because of this. We had a large warehouse in El Paso, Texas. Because my wife was from El Paso, it made it kind of, not easy, but I was familiar with both sides of the border at that time. SureFit had closed that many, many years ago, but that was actually during the recession. That was one of the things that they began to minimize, but today, I'd be concerned about driving into Juarez. I had no qualms about it when we were there, but it's not a pleasant place to be today. SC: What was the address of the building in Bethlehem? MK: Its East, Broad, and Wood streets. And we still have a company called Broad and Wood Realty because, when we sold the building, we did a tax-free exchange, and we kept the entity, and we owned property because of that and some other company buildings. We owned property in Florida and Pittsburgh. Commercial property. SC: And the other question was, which labor union would it have been? MK: The United Textile Workers of America. It was a smaller union, and we always had a pretty good relationship with them. We had strikes, I remember we've had strikes, but nothing really long-lasting. GE: Just so I understand, you started out with Slipcovers, then you very much did the throws, the quilting became a niche that you were producing in Mexico, then you were also doing the throw pillows and curtains, right? MK: Yeah, we always did that. Now what had happened, as our bed covering business grew, it was around that time where Sears went out of the catalog business. They gave up a five billion dollar business overnight. Five billion is what they were doing in their catalog. The Sears catalog was an icon. Montgomery Wards went belly up, so we ended up with, in terms of catalogs, and again, this is all pre-internet days. If the internet would have been existing then, in fact, I had started my own catalog. When we saw that we were losing Sears and Wards, I put together a "Slipcovers of America" catalog and we'd advertised in House Beautiful and what have you. It was growing at the time we sold the company, and we did room scenes as well, but we didn't have enough substance in it. I wasn't willing, knowing we were going to sell the company, to really invest a lot of money in advertising and bringing in customers. So that thing eventually dwindled through Behr Sterns' as well. In any event, yes, we did, up until the time we sold, and after we sold, in Bethlehem, they still manufactured slipcovers, draperies, decorative pillows, and furniture throws. GE: Now tell me a little bit about how the sales force worked. It sounds like one of your brothers in law headed that part. MK: Yeah, we had our main sales office. The showroom was on 34th Street, between Madison and 5th Avenue. That's the later years, when I was there. We had offices on 26th Street when I first started, but that goes back. They were very attractive showrooms, and we displayed a lot of the bed coverings and furniture throws because the catalog people didn't need showrooms. We had a showroom in Chicago for a number of years, and we had a showroom in California for a number of years. We had a warehouse in California. We had, initially, full time sales people, but then that became a very expensive thing, and we had a few full-time sales people that catered to the major accounts, but then we gravitated towards sales reps to handle other lines, as well. It was a difficult product to sell, very difficult. During this time, we have a little side-story. We also did a lot of work with foam because of the furniture throws and we had products that used foam to some extent. How we got involved with it, I don't know, but it's interesting. We end up signing a contract with Jane Fonda on her exercise mats. She put out the video, if you recall her video, which was the most popular video ever sold because it made sense. It was the first one that people had to use every day. It's not like how to cook something or a recipe and you use it once. This one, you watch the video every day. What was the name of her video? GE: It was a workout video. MK: Yeah, Jane Fonda's workout. Well we signed this contract for the events, and I saw on your little thing that you wanted a side-story, so I'll give you one. Karl [Home] Video was the one who really put her in business. He was the one who came up with the idea of taking her exercise thing and distributing it. They came to us, after we signed a contract, and they said, "We will give you exclusive rights to her video for the department stores". Well, many department stores didn't have sporting good departments and our salesmen would go nuts. Who do you sell this to? That never really took off but we had exclusive rights to her thing. I met her once and the one who did all her work was a bathing suit company out of Long Island, and the son got infatuated with her. Same immigrant father and the whole bit but the son got lost in this Hollywood bit, and they were Penneys largest supplier of bathing suits and, two years later, they were out of business. They hired Theoni Aldredge [?], a Broadway costume designer and she was the designer for hers, which was way overpriced. We did the mat and it was just simple different colored stripes, a workout logo, and a nice packaging, and we didn't know who to sell it to. She got a royalty, and we sold it to a few sporting goods chains and what have you. But, I remember, when she was doing all the PR leading up to the big event at the Shubert Theatre, where they brought in, (the bathing suit son brought in) the chorus line, the actual original Chorus Line people and they each wore her outfits and what have you. I remember we were sitting behind his father, who didn't look very happy about this because they footed the bill. So we did the mats for maybe 3-4 years with Jane Fonda. When she started out with the PR, she started in Burdines in Miami, and they cancelled her appearance because of all the problems with the veterans, and she went to Atlanta and they cancelled that. As she made her way up the East coast, word spread and they didn't want to have anything to do with her. Now she is going to have an appearance at Bloomingdales or Saks in New York, and she was interviewed the night before and she says, "Look, I'm tired of this, I've paid my dues" or whatever her rationale was and she said "I'm showing up. I'm gonna be there". Little did anyone know, but they called her and said, "You're not coming. You come and all your merchandise is going out." They couldn't afford to do anything with it, so the whole thing was not a successful project from every aspect. And that's just a side note. We didn't expect to make a lot of money, I guess, but someone in our organization said "Hey this is an opportunity." They knew someone and that was it. One of our sales managers who lived in Chicago by the name of Gordon Toland was very friendly with Hillary Clinton's father. Hillary Clinton's father worked in Scranton Lake [?[ and then they moved to Chicago. He became a sales rep for the airline upholstery industry, and our sales manager, of course they're kind of in the same industries, were neighbors. I remember being at a barbeque there and they invited the neighbors, but I don't have a clear picture of Hillary being there or anything. But, years later, they were very close friends, and they were always invited to Clinton's Governor's home in Arkansas. Years later, President-Elect Clinton was in Santa Barbara, California, and, I guess, the Tolands were out there with the Rodhams. There's a picture my sister has of her, my brother-in-law, Hillary and Bill, standing behind a sofa. Hillary's mother is sitting on the sofa with her feet up, drinking a beer out of a bottle, and the father is sitting next to her. So I presume our sales manager took this picture because he wasn't in it. And, I'm not a Hillary fan because of that. GE: Interesting. Marty, on a totally different note, tell us a little bit about your civic involvement and your community involvement. MK: Well, I've been on a lot of committees over the years. When I was young, I co-chaired the Campaign Federation for the campaign with Arnold Finkelstein. I was on the Federation board for many, many years. I remember us starting the George Feldman Achievement Award. Some of the things were very moving. Of course, it was during some of the wars. I remember the Wilkes-Barre flood, and they had a special meeting where about two dozen men went to the Jewish Community Center in the boardroom and they raised, within 10 minutes, $100,000 to send to the Wilkes-Barre Jewish Community Center. Things like that were very touching. We had a parlor meeting in our home. We had a shag rug that I remember. One of the older guys who had a cigar, and we didn't know until after they all left, but he put the cigar out in our shag rug. My wife was beside herself. But, we participated in that. That's how I got to know Ivan[Schonfeld] real well. We went on a mission with him in 1990, right after we sold our business, I remember. There were ten of us. We went to Hungary and brought a planeload of Russian immigrants into Israel. They had a video, like you are doing. This woman accompanied the mission, with the idea they're going to show this, which they did, to a full meeting at the center. And, no one really paid much attention while she was videoing this whole, ten-day mission from Hungary to Israel. And I was the one that carried her tripod, and I felt a little responsible. They were all guys except for Elaine Lerner, she was there. You know Elaine Lerner? GE: I know the name. MK: She was just wonderful. We were in the Old City, and I was dying for an ice cream. We were in the Armenian section and I see this ice cream store, and Ivan's on his megaphone, "We're going to the Knesset, get on the bus, everyone on the bus!" and I said, "Elaine, I'm dying for some ice cream." She says "I'll deal with Ivan. You go in and get yourself an ice cream cone." So I come out and the streets are all these cobbled streets, and I trip, and the cone falls down. And I remember her, she was patting me on the back like my mother saying "It's alright Marty. We'll get you another ice cream cone later." But that's how I got to know Ivan real well, and he was great because he was the director of the Federation for many years. Other involvement in the Jewish communities and mostly the Jewish institutions. I was on the board there, but later on, I cut everything off and became very inactive. I kind of paid my dues and, of course, we're in California now, six months a year. Hobbies, I play golf, I'm living a nice life. GE: We no longer have much of a thriving textile industry in this community. How do you think the Jewish community has been affected by that? MK: I think the needle trades was the big industry. Maybe the second, they owned a lot of retail stores, Hess Brothers' and boutique type things. The medical industry has replaced the needle trades industry, but I think its effect is that a few things have changed. The area is spread out and there's too many other activities for children growing up. They don't mingle as much. We were in a concentrated thing. Everyone knew everyone. It's spread out today. I guess there's advantages and disadvantages to that. I know the institutions are all hurting money-wise because it was a different ballgame then. The people that had the money were the manufacturers and they contributed willingly. Professionals have a tendency of not doing that. A lot of them are new to the area. I guess it's good and bad. I think it's put a strain on a lot of the institutions, from the synagogues to the Jewish Community Center.There were a lot of big egos from people who owned manufacturing. And the egos translated into their own institutions because they were the major contributor. I think things have to change. The concept of a campus of institutions makes sense where, in my mind, I'm not really into the numbers today but, just on the surface, I think it would be nice to have the Jewish Community Center and the day school certainly should be combined in some way or another. More of that consolidation. Times are changing. That generation has died off and is dying off. You've got to service the needs and today it's open. One of the questions, did I ever have any real anti-semitism growing up as a child? I don't recall. Maybe because we were isolated but in high school, I don't remember any incidents that bothered me or were lasting or made an impression. I'm sure there was a lot. I know we lived on 16th Street and sold our house, unbeknownst to us to Thompson [?]. His father owned the deli and ran the deli at the old JCC. He worked for Bethlehem Steel, and he worked for my dad for a couple years. He worked for Bethlehem Steel in the 30s, and he was a member of the Communist party, which was not unusual. Then the FBI got him as an undercover to stay in the party and, when I was in high school, they had the hearings in Washington. The father now had a little sandwich shop next to our high school. We always used to go there for lunch. The newspaper came out, I forget his first name but his last name was Thompson and he was called in to testify in Washington. That's the only anti-semitism was in this window, "Down with the Jews", and it was two weeks until he went to Washington to testify and, during that two-week period, he was not allowed to expose who he was, and the only one, we heard later, I'm sure he told his wife, was Rabbi Greenburg. He had to let someone know that he was doing this for the FBI. During the testimony, we found out our house on 16th Street was sold to a veteran who had a repair shop for radios and TV. Well maybe not TV then, but radios. And he was head of the Communist Party of Eastern Pennsylvania and, where we used to play ping pong in our basement, they used to have all these big meetings going on with the Communist Party. This was all going on during the height of the Cold War. There was a certain feeling that we were going to be bombed. So our house was used for Communist meetings. GE: And the last question I'm going to ask before Sue asks you the final couple of questions, why do you think Jews were overrepresented in the needle-trade industry? This was an industry where they were really overrepresented. MK: Well, I guess there was a number of reasons. I think they started out like my father, in their own homes, because it was easy to get a sewing machine. They came from Europe. They made their own clothes, so they had some inclination, you know, about that. They certainly couldn't get jobs in banks. Most of them were uneducated anyway. They didn't go to college, many didn't even finish high school. They started these companies, but it was easy to get into. You buy a couple of sewing machines, and you go into it. In the New York area, of course, in the needle trades, there were so many Jewish women involved with that because they learned it from their mothers and, as I said, it didn't take much to buy 3 or 4 sewing machines and many of them, like my father and his father, they started peddling on the streets. They didn't have any options, in terms of employment. They didn't speak the language. That was another thing. So, why not other things to get involved? They did. It's not like all of them got into the needle trades, but it was an easy entry. GE: Thank you. These are our last couple of questions. SC: So, the last two questions are, what has made you feel the most creative in your life? MK: Well I think I inherited some of that from my father. When I retired and moved to California, I decided that, other than golf, I had to be a little productive and use my head. So we have a, I don't know if you've ever heard of the Osher program. Osher was an individual, and if you look it up, google Osher, they run senior citizen classes at universities. They have a terrific program in the desert because of so many retirees, and we were connected with Cal State of San Bernardino. I always managed to take courses there. One class I decided to take was creative writing. I knew I had a little talent, based on emails and letters I write. So I took this course in creative writing, and basically, the course had maybe 30 people in it.We met once a week for eight weeks and she gave us, sometimes, topics. Other times, just freelance and you go and write and you email it to the instructor, and she'd review all of them and she'd read three or four of them in the class. It seemed like every week she'd be reading one of mine. And I'm not a good writer, but the stories were bizarre and some of them were very touching. And I did come in-- the Palm Springs Writers' Guild has a contest-- and they sent my story in and I got honorable mention, which would be the last thing in the world I ever thought I would get. I started writing all of these stories. Then, afterwards, the class formed our own writing group,, and we had a mentor that published and she liked our small group. We only had four people in our group, and we'd meet every week and basically, during four-five months, we'd do this all the time, and we wrote. So that's when I realized that maybe I was a little creative, and I enjoyed it. And my wife thinks some of the stories are very good. Not necessarily well written. She helped me on some of them. This is cute, before I leave there's a restaurant that is terrific for breakfast and lunch where we live in the desert, Louise's, and I go there one day. It's lunchtime and I run in by myself and a friend of mine is sitting on a chair in front of the restaurant, reading a book. "What are you doing, John?" He said, "Well, I already ate, I'm waiting for the car dealer to call. When they're finished, then they're gonna pick me up." Then I said, "Keep me company, we'll go inside." So we go inside the restaurant and I said, "We'll go sit at the counter so we can eat fast, and I'll take you to the dealer." So we sit at the counter. They hadn't cleared his dishes because he had just finished and all of his dirty dishes are at one end of the counter. And in the interim, a woman sits down next to his dirty dishes. I sit next to the woman, and he's sitting next to me. He sees the empty dishes so he goes over and his glass still had half a glass of iced tea and he brings it back. The woman sees what's happening, and she gives me one of these things and her eyes are wide open and she said, "Can you believe that? Did you see that? Can you believe that?" I said. "Well, I've known him for many years. He doesn't buy his own drinks." Then, the waitress comes and he orders a refill. She gives me another one of these and says, "I can't wait to tell my friends, this is incredible." Well it ends and, we're one of the few people that still get Reader's Digest, 100 words or less, and I write this story. Fitting it in under 100 words, that was tough, and I thought this was really neat, and I submitted it. I couldn't fit in the refill. That really bothered me. I was sure I was gonna win $100 from this and other people read it and they said, "This is terrific". I never heard from Reader's Digest. It's their loss. So I have some creativity. SC: And this is very short. What do you value most in life? MK: Well, I value humor, obviously family and what have you. But I value humor and I kind of gravitate to the deprived. I'm a Republican, leaning to the right on financial and way to the left on social. That kind of describes me. But, I appreciate, particularly in the later years, my parents, the struggles they went through, and that provided for a good life to me and my family. You could value a lot of the good things, and you could become very verbal, but basically, I like good humor and I like nice people, and I'm tolerant, too. People have different viewpoints. So what? Let it be. I'm kind of like laid back. And that's my story. SC: Thank you very much. Copyright for this interview is held by Muhlenberg College. video This oral history is made available with a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial 4.0 International License (CC BY-NC 4.0). 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01:59:21
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Marty Krasnov, June 22, 2016
Description
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Marty Krasnov talks about how his father got into the furniture slipcover manufacturing business as well as how the company got the “SureFit” name. During World War II, the firm switched from making slipcovers for furniture to making parachutes for the military because the specialized equipment SureFit already owned to produce slipcovers was easily retrofitted to make parachutes. Marty and his brothers-in-law sold the business in 1990. SureFit is one of the very few brands that still remains.
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LVTNT-27
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2016-06-22
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video
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Muhlenberg College Special Collections and College Archives
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Copyright remains with the interview subject and their heirs.